Juno News - LIVE： Katie Telford testifies

00:00:00.000 The committee is meeting today to continue its study on foreign election interference.

00:00:14.080 Before we begin, and this is the point I would like all members to hear very clearly, that

00:00:21.360 all comments should be addressed through the chair.

00:00:25.280 There should be one person speaking at a time.

00:00:29.440 This is a meeting that we've been looking forward to and I know it's really important

00:00:33.340 to all of us and therefore I will ask that we ask a question or make a comment and we

00:00:39.400 provide time for an answer.

00:00:42.660 And I will also let you know that the health of interpreters and the people who do their

00:00:47.260 important work on Parliament Hill is paramount for me because it's the way we advance a

00:00:52.460 country with two official languages and that's something I think most of us wholeheartedly

00:00:57.380 believe in.

00:00:58.980 that is my signal to you once again that i would expect only one person is speaking at a time

00:01:06.820 and that we maintain a little bit of eye contact to know that we want the floor to pass however we

00:01:11.860 do we're capable of doing this the clerk and i will maintain the consolidated speaking list of

00:01:17.140 members wishing to speak and today we have with us um miss katie telford chief of staff to the

00:01:24.660 prime minister and as a person who observes the seek faith a member of the sea community i do want

00:01:29.300 to wish everyone celebrating a happy vasaki this is a really big deal in our community so i just

00:01:34.660 want to express that to everyone who is here in person and watching so thank you ms telford you

00:01:41.300 will now have time for an opening statement and then we will proceed to questions and comments

00:01:47.060 from community members ms telford welcome to proc thank you madam chair i thought i'd start by

00:01:53.860 explaining my role and how I receive intelligence. My job is to advise the

00:01:58.580 Prime Minister and manage the Prime Minister's office. A key part of my role

00:02:02.500 is ensuring he receives advice and information from all parts of

00:02:06.760 government so that he can make the best decisions possible. This includes

00:02:10.600 briefings from the National Security and Intelligence Advisor, the NSIA, and other

00:02:14.740 intelligence officials. I am usually with the Prime Minister for these briefings.

00:02:19.420 Sometimes we receive these briefings in secure settings known as SCIFs. That's

00:02:23.820 stands for sensitive compartmented information facility all of our phones

00:02:27.580 and electronics get locked up by the elevator and don't enter the floor let

00:02:31.140 alone the room itself other times the NSIA will request that I read a

00:02:35.580 document that is brought to me by a crow a client relations officer the crow

00:02:39.720 hands me the document supervises me while I read it and takes it back

00:02:44.340 sensitive intelligence is treated with the utmost care there is a rigorous

00:02:50.100 vetting process to obtain top-secret clearance, which I have, and there are

00:02:54.280 equally important obligations one must uphold to keep that clearance. That is

00:02:59.280 because publicly disclosing what our intelligence agencies know or how they

00:03:02.700 come to know it can irreparably harm Canada's national interests and put

00:03:07.160 people's lives in danger. It can also threaten Canada's ability to obtain

00:03:12.120 intelligence in the future because Canada is a net importer of intelligence.

00:03:17.080 in my years in this job i have seen a huge range of intelligence from all parts of the world

00:03:22.440 some of it has been wrong proven wrong some of it right some we may never know or only

00:03:27.960 with time will we learn if it's true even intelligence that is proven wrong can be useful

00:03:34.200 it can shed light on the motivations or the agenda of the source or a narrative that is being pushed

00:03:40.600 intelligence often comes as fragments of information that then needs to be analyzed

00:03:44.920 assessed discussed to understand what they really mean and that work has to be done by situating

00:03:51.320 those fragments in a wider context of information as the deputy minister of foreign affairs told you

00:03:57.400 at this very committee intelligence rarely paints a full concrete or actionable picture

00:04:06.760 since 2015 our government has strengthened the measures that protect our institutions against

00:04:12.520 foreign interference. I can confirm with certainty that it has always been a priority and that we

00:04:18.360 have undertaken concrete actions on this file. It is therefore important to take a moment to look

00:04:24.200 at the work that we have accomplished. In its 2015 platform, the Liberal Party had promised

00:04:30.120 to create what is today the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians.

00:04:35.480 He, as an MP under the Afghan detainee issue under the Harper government, Prime Minister

00:04:44.140 Trudeau noted the need for some MPs to have access to classified intelligence, which was

00:04:49.720 not the case previously.

00:04:52.040 That is why our government passed a bill to create this committee.

00:04:56.660 For six years now, MPs of all stripes have received, with a top secret security clearance,

00:05:03.360 examine classified intelligence, study it independently, and report on it publicly.

00:05:10.120 And the committee is now working on a review to assess the state of foreign interference

00:05:15.600 in federal electoral processes, among others.

00:05:18.820 The threat of foreign interference has evolved since 2015.

00:05:23.240 We saw what happened during the American elections in 2016 and the French elections in 2017.

00:05:30.420 So to better protect our federal elections in 2019, the government established a public

00:05:36.300 protocol for major electoral incidents.

00:05:39.840 And this protocol was part of our cross-government plan to protect Canadian democracy, which

00:05:45.740 was launched in January 2019.

00:05:48.540 The protocol, which is administered by senior public servants with access to classified

00:05:52.900 information on national security, determined that the elections of 2019 and 2020 were held

00:06:00.340 freely and fairly.

00:06:04.100 In 2019, we also established an office to monitor national security and intelligence

00:06:11.020 activities and the office will examine our security and intelligence agencies to assess

00:06:17.240 foreign interference before and after the last two elections.

00:06:21.720 We also created a mechanism for rapid response and the working group on security and intelligence

00:06:29.780 threats targeting elections. Both of those help us manage foreign threats affecting our

00:06:37.020 democracy and to counter them. As the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs told you, the

00:06:43.400 tools to fight against foreign interference are more and more numerous. By May 23rd, former

00:06:51.000 Governor-General David Johnson will provide us with his recommendations on the matter.

00:06:55.580 will have unlimited access to classified documents to do his work and of course we already know that

00:07:00.780 we we will accept these recommendations. The Minister's office was told about specific intelligence

00:07:05.980 and what we did as a result. I will do my best to answer your questions. At the same time,

00:07:11.660 I must respect the law and the same boundaries as the Director of CSIS and the NSIA did when

00:07:16.540 they appeared before you. These constraints are exactly why NSICOP was created. But what I can

00:07:23.500 say here is this when we receive intelligence briefings of any kind we don't leave any stones

00:07:29.740 unturned we usually start by asking a lot of questions questions like how credible is the

00:07:35.900 intelligence who else has been briefed who else needs to be briefed what decisions are in front

00:07:41.180 of decision makers what actions have already been taken what actions can be taken and what

00:07:46.940 authorities are needed to take them very often they are not within the prime minister's or cabinet's

00:07:52.460 authorities. By that I mean those are decisions for law enforcement or intelligence officials.

00:07:58.220 And as you've heard from them about the tools they have available like CSIS's threat reductions.

00:08:03.500 All that being said, if there are actions to be taken to protect national security, we do not

00:08:09.820 hesitate. Let's remember that foreign interference threatens all democracies. It comes from many

00:08:16.380 authoritarian states like china russia and iran it targets all aspects of society our communities

00:08:22.940 particularly diaspora communities our universities research institutes all levels of government and

00:08:28.940 all political parties it is not a new threat but it is an evolving threat it is a threat

00:08:35.020 we will continue to do our utmost to guard against i want to end by addressing the debate around my

00:08:41.660 appearance today and whether I am the right person to appear before you. I am

00:08:46.760 a consumer of intelligence, not the one who briefs on intelligence. The NSIA is

00:08:52.640 the person who directly reports to the Prime Minister on these matters. On top

00:08:57.680 of that, for all the reasons outlined today, these matters are extremely

00:09:01.760 sensitive and the law limits what I can talk about in this public setting.

00:09:06.340 Ultimately, I have accepted this invitation because I want Parliament to work.

00:09:12.340 I've devoted most of my professional life to getting people involved in politics,

00:09:18.340 to run for office, to advance the causes that they believe in,

00:09:22.340 and to make a difference in their community and in their country.

00:09:25.340 That's why I'm here, and I believe why we're all here.

00:09:29.340 Protecting our democracy is one of the most important things we can do

00:09:33.340 and one of the most important parts of my job campaigns politics and democracy are all about

00:09:40.620 people expressing their rights and electing who represents them i will always fight for these

00:09:46.300 rights and defend against any attempts to undermine them and with that i will do my very best to

00:09:53.020 answer your questions thank you miss felford for those opening comments and for being here with us

00:10:02.460 today we will now commence with six minute rounds starting with mr brock followed by miss sahota

00:10:11.020 and then madame goodrow followed by madame blaney one person will speak at a time and mr brock the

00:10:19.580 floor is yours and i'll just give a quick reminder that this is procedure in house affairs committee

00:10:25.580 it is not a courtroom so if we can provide some time to ask the question make the comment

00:10:30.460 and some answer that allows our interpreters to work best interpreters can you see me

00:10:45.980 please raise your hand if needed so that you we can continue your important work

00:10:51.020 thank you so much madam chair and good afternoon miss telford thank you for your attendance today

00:10:56.140 ms telford did the prime minister receive a series of briefings from canada's national spy agency

00:11:06.380 beginning in january 2022 on beijing's election interference specifically in the 2019 election

00:11:17.420 i believe you received from the national security and intelligence advisor and from

00:11:22.380 privy council office a listing of briefings that the prime minister has received on the subject

00:11:26.780 yes you're referring to the document that was undertaken by the national security officer

00:11:36.460 jody thomas on march the first of this year that we received this morning at 10 o'clock

00:11:44.140 in the morning and i've looked at this and there's no indication about any briefings

00:11:49.660 in january of 2022 but noteworthy the commentary on the beginning of page number one indicates the

00:11:59.580 list is not exhaustive as the records are not complete in all cases and this only represents

00:12:06.380 formal briefings as opposed to informal briefings so i'll ask the question again did the prime

00:12:12.540 minister receive a series of briefings beginning in january 2022 on beijing's election interference

00:12:19.980 in the 2019 election yes or no i think madam chair the answer may have been given in the question

00:12:28.700 which is that in the preamble in the memo it talks about how there's all kinds of conversations that

00:12:34.140 go on this go on about some of these topics um that can't all be captured in terms of formal

00:12:39.420 briefings and you have the list of formal briefings that are provided so i can take that as a yes

00:12:44.060 that he would have received some informal briefings in and around that time frame january of 2022

00:12:51.740 as reported by global news on november the 7th of 2022. i can't speak specifically to what was

00:12:59.260 discussed in briefings over the course of those months and whether it was related to what was in

00:13:03.980 the report again ms telford i'm not asking for specifics i'm asking you to confirm that is more

00:13:09.500 than likely in fact it did happen that he would have received briefings along those lines in

00:13:15.660 january of 2022 notwithstanding that is not repeated in this particular document that we got today

00:13:23.500 did and more than likely in my experience are different things i think it is quite possible

00:13:27.820 that there were discussions throughout that time period around foreign interference as um as i

00:13:32.220 As I think the Prime Minister said yesterday, we have talked about these subjects a lot over many years

00:13:37.680 because there's been a lot of activity and a lot of work that this government has done on this front.

00:13:42.420 And the Prime Minister was briefed on China's Toronto consulate directing a large clandestine transfer of funds

00:13:50.140 to at least 11 federal election candidates and numerous Beijing operatives who worked as their campaign staffers.

00:13:57.940 That was the subject matter of those series of briefings in January of 2022.

00:14:02.940 Are you confirming that?

00:14:04.180 No, Madam Speaker, I can't, unfortunately, I can't provide information about what I have or have not been briefed on in an intelligence setting or in a public setting about intelligence.

00:14:15.280 But what I can remind the members through you, Madam Chair, of is what the NSIA said when she was here, actually on March 1st at this very committee.

00:14:23.800 and she said the connection that was being made between 11 candidates and funds that you're

00:14:28.360 describing that that was inaccurate if this was completely inaccurate if this story of global news

00:14:36.600 on november the 7th was completely inaccurate you would have said so your prime minister would have

00:14:43.000 said so your members of cabinet would have said so so i'm asking you specifically apart from the

00:14:51.000 issue of clandestine transfers to 11 candidates the other subject matter of those briefings

00:14:59.320 is that false is that inaccurate in any way i'm sorry you might have to clarify the question

00:15:07.320 you you've highlighted that there was an issue with respect to the prime minister never receiving

00:15:12.440 any information respect respect to the transfer of monies to specific candidates i'm talking about

00:15:19.240 the broader description of evidence and intelligence that was shared with the prime minister

00:15:25.880 in a series of briefings in january 2022 as reported by global news is that inaccurate

00:15:33.800 so madam speaker i can't speak to the reporting that global news um spoke of it i can speak to my

00:15:38.840 experience which is that there have been a lot of conversations over many years it's why all

00:15:45.080 the different mechanisms that i outlined were put in place leading into the 20 the 2019 election

00:15:50.200 and the 2021 election there were further steps taken in between those two elections thank you

00:15:56.200 did the privy council office prepare a document entitled special report date stamped january 2022

00:16:03.640 yes or no i can't speak to that why because i'm not sure what document you're referencing if you

00:16:10.760 can give me some more information i probably still won't be able to confirm whether or not

00:16:14.360 it's something i saw that i'd be it was reported it was reported in the global news of march the 8th

00:16:20.520 it was reviewed by sam cooper the reporter it was date stamped and finalized suggesting it was

00:16:26.440 intended to be read by the prime minister and senior aides including yourself it was derived

00:16:32.360 from 100 cses reports from investigations beginning in january 2019 and produced by the

00:16:38.600 intelligence assessment secretariat a division of the pco it was a part of a series of briefings

00:16:44.440 beginning in january 2022 again confirming the large clandestine transfer of funds earmarked

00:16:51.400 for the federal election from the consulate in toronto which transferred that funds to an elected

00:16:56.920 provincial government official via a staff member of a 2019 federal candidate you are responsible

00:17:04.200 ultimately for the pco the pco is the arm of the prime minister it's his own department

00:17:10.600 they report to you you control the pmo are you suggesting that this special report as prepared

00:17:18.680 by the intelligence assessment secretariat did not occur okay miss telford sorry before

00:17:26.840 i continue um i think as members of parliament we've all served in the house

00:17:31.880 and when you suggest you you are referring to the chair in this role yes mr crock i did you

00:17:37.960 are referring to me no i'm not referring to you through you madam i was hoping so i did not hear

00:17:42.680 those important through you two words but i did appreciate for the most part um the exchange and

00:17:48.760 i think it was nice that we were able to let pauses so the interpreters can do their work

00:17:52.920 but if we're going to be at a spot that we are perhaps putting words in other people's mouths

00:17:59.320 then i need us to go through the chair right madame chair will you allow the witness to

00:18:02.360 answer the question it will be coming out of possible later time but yes i would love to do

00:18:06.600 that ms telford so i should answer now okay um i um i just want to clarify because you uh sorry

00:18:16.280 through the through the chair uh the member was asserting a number of things about what i do and

00:18:20.760 i want to go back to what i said in the in my opening statement about my role uh the privy

00:18:25.800 council office does not report to me i manage the prime minister's office i do however work very

00:18:30.520 closely with the privy council office and there's some extraordinary public servants in there

00:18:34.440 including one who reports directly to the prime minister the national security intelligence advisor

00:18:39.560 and i want to remind the room again madam chair of what she said which was that the connection

00:18:45.560 that was being made between the 11 candidates and essentially much of what you're saying there was

00:18:51.480 inaccurate thank you and i appreciate you uh keeping that brief because i do try to

00:18:57.880 make sure that the time of the question answer are the same um and i will now proceed to mrs

00:19:04.600 sohota thank you madam chair um first of all thank you miss salford for coming here today i

00:19:14.040 i still hold the belief that staff should not be the ones that are held accountable but i want to

00:19:20.440 thank you for taking the time out to come today to make parliament functional. It's important to

00:19:28.040 see that you've done that at many times during your time here as chief of staff and not many

00:19:33.560 others have ever done that so I think that goes to show that you are a leader however I think

00:19:40.840 some of the things that have been implied which you've clarified the fact that a chief of staff

00:19:47.080 controls pco is untrue um and you've in your in your opening remarks made it quite clear that

00:19:55.480 many times as the consumer of intelligence you do your due diligence in terms of finding out what

00:20:02.680 has been done what can be done and whether you even within the office of the prime minister

00:20:08.840 anyone has authority to do so and so i think that is really important and maybe we can get to some

00:20:14.440 of what Mr. Brock is trying to get at and I think perhaps what we need is a better understanding

00:20:20.040 of how you get briefed on intelligence and specifically what type of intelligence is

00:20:25.240 brought to your intention by whom is that intelligence brought and what happens exactly

00:20:32.920 in specific circumstances when you receive that. So thank you Madam Chair it intelligence comes

00:20:41.400 to us in many different forms from many different parts of the government though it all ultimately

00:20:46.440 funnels through the Privy Council Office and the NSIA in terms of what comes directly to us

00:20:54.120 and so they kind of bring together so many different parts of government where intelligence

00:20:59.400 can get collected from the Global Affairs Department to D&D and CSE there's a glorious

00:21:06.200 number of acronyms uh that can sometimes and not always roll off the tongue easily but they

00:21:14.440 produce all that information and then it comes into the pco intelligence analysis unit that

00:21:19.160 will pull it together and determine what needs to make its way to the prime minister and the

00:21:23.800 nsia as i mentioned earlier will flag some information that she will want read sometimes

00:21:28.520 i will walk into the office and the crow will be sitting there and i know i need to clear my

00:21:31.960 schedule to read something um and other times it will get scheduled sometimes it's formal briefings

00:21:37.560 sometimes you know we just we see something sometimes it's reporting and we will need to

00:21:42.440 just catch up quickly in a sort of pull aside as they say in government um in uh in in wherever we

00:21:48.600 can find the time and also of course ahead of any international meetings um whether they be

00:21:53.960 international meetings happening here in canada or happening when we're traveling around the world

00:21:58.120 it's particularly important because we work very very closely with our allies

00:22:02.020 on on all matters to do with intelligence as well particularly our

00:22:06.940 five eyes partners and so there's a lot of different opportunities that we talk

00:22:11.560 about these things which is why it gets complicated to try to pin down some of

00:22:15.580 these briefings in the way was being asked about I guess I'll move on to part

00:22:25.060 Part of your role is making sure that the Prime Minister gets the best information.

00:22:29.300 So through these briefings, I'm assuming that at times it seems like from your description,

00:22:34.960 it's just you getting briefed on some of the matters.

00:22:40.060 Given that you're not an intelligence official yourself and a consumer, you rely on the work

00:22:45.220 of these officials that's given to you.

00:22:47.480 would you then determine what is then briefed or how when and why the Prime

00:22:55.380 Minister gets briefed? How do you make those decisions?

00:22:59.060 So as I mentioned in my opening statement I'm usually with the Prime

00:23:05.440 Minister when he's briefed on these matters and it's actually pretty rare

00:23:08.300 for me to have formal briefings where it's it's me alone. It doesn't never

00:23:14.540 happen but it's pretty rare and um it's it's usually a question of scheduling when that

00:23:19.500 happens more than anything because it's it's really based on the nsia's advice sometimes other

00:23:24.620 staff um who are who are in the office other senior staff will meet with officials or they'll

00:23:29.740 they'll read something in reporting and they'll say this is something that we should make sure

00:23:33.340 the pm sees sooner than later um but ultimately all you know even those thoughts will go to the

00:23:38.860 nsia who will make the ultimate recommendation on what needs to be scheduled who should be there

00:23:43.420 in what format he should get briefed okay um so talking about particularly foreign election

00:23:51.580 interference uh you uh are often i'm sure all of these briefings that you're discussing are not

00:23:58.300 particularly about election interference they're about uh travel that you do and interactions uh

00:24:03.740 foreign relations with many countries uh i imagine this um the scale and scope of the

00:24:10.140 amount of intelligence that you receive on any given day is quite vast given the international

00:24:17.180 issues going on around the world with ukraine um with the chinese spy balloons and and many things

00:24:23.500 that we're seeing even in the news down south uh in the last few days so given that there it is so

00:24:30.380 vast um can you help us understand a little bit better as to the amount of intelligence that

00:24:37.900 is provided to your office um it varies as you say um but it uh dependent on on events

00:24:48.060 obviously a lot more starts coming in um around the time of of the balloons for example um and

00:24:54.140 certainly um in the lead up to as has been publicly spoken about before um and of course

00:25:01.580 following the invasion of ukraine um there's been all kinds of intelligence that came in much

00:25:07.820 more increasing volumes and so you know it really does depend on the events

00:25:12.460 but there have been many events as you said in the last number of years

00:25:16.460 so this is a significant part of the job

00:25:28.060 and now we are continuing with madame gaudreau since we have two

00:25:33.740 official languages. You may choose to speak in the language of your choice. Ms. Telford,

00:25:38.900 I know you speak French very well, but we don't have a lot of time, so I just wanted

00:25:44.380 to let you know you may choose the language of your choice.

00:25:47.740 Madame Gaudreau, you have the floor. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ms. Telford.

00:25:55.580 Since I have little time, Madam Chair, my questions will be very short, and we already

00:26:01.260 have at the outset a few pieces of information. What we're seeking to know is what is the

00:26:07.260 protocol, the internal protocol, which allows us to understand how information is transmitted.

00:26:18.500 Can you give us a little bit more information about the protocol?

00:26:28.040 largely as i said and this is why you know there's a question around whether i'm the right person to

00:26:32.120 be appearing here and so as i said i'm going to do my best uh because the the and and i apologize

00:26:37.800 i'm answering in english i just want to make sure i'm getting it right and i can speak faster

00:26:41.640 um is um it's it's largely run through the nsia i mean that is who governs all the gathering of

00:26:51.560 intelligence and it's actually why the prime minister actually changed the title it was the

00:26:55.480 NSA when we came into government and he actually inserted the word intelligence into it because

00:27:00.360 that is such a huge part of the function of that function and so they will gather

00:27:06.680 working with all the public servants that that work for her and working with other security

00:27:11.400 agencies across government all the information on whatever the given issues are in any given week

00:27:17.640 there's weekly briefs there's daily briefs there's informal briefs there's formal briefings

00:27:22.520 it really depends on what's going on in the world thank you very much my question is even more

00:27:29.720 specific madam chair given that the advisor the nsia is there to guide you and inform you

00:27:38.120 of what is urgent and important my question is what are the criteria what are the signals that

00:27:45.640 allow us to know that as you say madam chair as madam telford said that there's a red flag

00:27:53.560 that we need to be concerned what are the criteria about for nsi the nsia's advice

00:28:01.400 asked to her i i don't i can't remember now having read her her testimony here whether she um whether

00:28:07.240 she answered a question like that but it can it's usually at least in terms of what makes its way

00:28:14.600 to me there may be things that don't make his way to me that that should or to or to the prime

00:28:18.040 minister but i can't speak to what i don't see but what i do see it's usually pretty self-evident

00:28:23.000 uh in terms of what is of of importance it's rela it's um it's an interesting question but it really

00:28:35.000 well madame chair i'm just going to um flesh that out by saying like the criteria are to allow us to

00:28:41.560 know who is responsible for knowing when it's a time where there need to be a

00:28:51.100 validation of the processes established that maybe didn't work of the urgency to

00:28:55.780 take action because to and to respond to the visit by Madame Thomas she said

00:29:02.740 that the information was transmitted but we want to know where is the

00:29:07.280 information how is it that maybe you how is it that maybe you weren't aware of

00:29:15.980 of foreign interference as you say and and now people are saying no no there

00:29:20.300 was information what are the criteria we want to reassure people we are here in

00:29:24.680 this process and we want to ensure things are watertight so can you please

00:29:30.380 reassure us who is the information holder how does this work within cabinet

00:29:35.660 the prime with the prime minister and ministers i guess i'll give it and i'll try and do it

00:29:40.300 efficiently two parts uh to the answer one is it is actually the national security and intelligence

00:29:45.580 officer or advisor um who pulls all of that information together but second i think you

00:29:51.260 know there are legitimate questions and um we we had them when we were in opposition um as a party

00:29:57.820 and they continue to exist today and even in government you have questions about whether

00:30:01.820 everything's working right and it's actually why this government put in place NSCRA and NSCRA is

00:30:07.340 actually there to oversee the security agencies and to make sure all those parts are working

00:30:12.140 and then specifically working on this now. Madam Chair, I would continue by saying if we're here

00:30:20.220 today and know that this was the last day and we thank you for joining us if we're here today it's

00:30:27.500 because we want to shed light and better understand this issue and it's a golden opportunity to know

00:30:32.780 whether there is information that that that might have been omitted can is there can you reassure

00:30:40.780 voters that we have a system that is watertight i am not convinced right now so i have about 30

00:30:49.820 seconds left could you please tell us because that's that's why we're here today so what i

00:30:54.620 What I would just say to reassure Canadians through you, Madam Chair, is I just know the

00:31:00.660 incredible work that the senior officials do day in and day out on this.

00:31:04.340 I spend a lot of time with them and they are constantly working to refine and improve processes,

00:31:10.380 especially as new and different types of information comes forward.

00:31:14.300 But I know that any time there is action that can be taken, they take it.

00:31:19.340 And I know that there's any time that the Prime Minister can take action, he takes it

00:31:23.740 and he certainly encourages that kind of action as well.

00:31:28.100 I think I have a right to one more question.

00:31:31.040 Madam Chair, could our witness tell us whether there is information

00:31:38.140 that she is keeping within Cabinet and that is not shared

00:31:43.840 either to ministers or the Prime Minister on foreign interference?

00:31:50.380 No, there's not.

00:31:51.520 If I'm understanding you correctly, there is nothing that is ever kept from the Prime Minister.

00:31:56.980 Certainly not by me.

00:32:03.220 Merci.

00:32:04.560 Thank you.

00:32:07.300 Madam Blaney.

00:32:10.000 Well, thank you so much, Chair.

00:32:11.660 And as always, everything that I say goes through the Chair.

00:32:14.360 And I want to thank our witness for being here on this important issue.

00:32:19.160 and i think the way i'll start is how i think i've started almost every question during this study

00:32:25.160 is the fact that this is very serious and the most important part for me is that canadians are

00:32:30.440 losing faith in our systems and what i would hope around this table and all the people who are

00:32:35.640 represented at this table is that our commitment is number one to canadians and making sure that

00:32:41.240 they have faith and what has happened around foreign interference in our elections is that

00:32:46.840 we've seen canadians losing more and more faith and that's where i am concerned so my questions

00:32:53.800 uh to miss telford are simply this we have seen the liberal mps in this committee repeatedly point

00:33:01.800 out that the mara or our public inquiry was really effective on shedding light on intelligence leaks

00:33:09.320 and providing canadians with transparency even when the government at the time was providing

00:33:13.800 misleading information regarding Mr. Arar. Given that even your former colleague Gerald Butts has

00:33:20.120 called for a public inquiry do you think one is needed? I think as I mentioned in the opening

00:33:29.160 statement that for the very reasons you set out in terms of the importance of this issue the

00:33:35.160 seriousness of what we're talking about the need also to take it out of the partisan arena and that

00:33:41.880 it's an extremely complex issue for some of the reasons i laid out and for a number of other

00:33:46.120 reasons i'm sure you've touched on in committee over time uh that this is why the prime minister

00:33:52.600 walked through a number of actions he took and a number of different follow-ups that are ongoing

00:33:58.280 as we speak as i just mentioned in a previous answer there's nfc sorry to interrupt i certainly

00:34:02.680 don't want to hurt the interpreters because they are very important to us and provide the ability

00:34:07.640 for us to do our work so i'm just it seems to me that you're not interested in really answering

00:34:13.080 the question because what we're seeing is more and more distrust from the canadian public and

00:34:19.080 i think a public inquiry would make a difference because then people would see it come out of the

00:34:23.640 partisan sphere and right now it's having to stay in the partisan sphere because action is not being

00:34:28.600 taken so i'm just wondering um have you ever advised through the chair of course the prime

00:34:34.600 minister against launching a public inquiry and if so why so let me try again um on answering

00:34:42.120 your question i was certainly trying to um i think a lot of people look at the what's become

00:34:48.440 known as poic the um the public inquiry that went on last fall in response to the emergencies act

00:34:53.960 and saw it having worked as another example you spoke about another inquiry and said why not do

00:34:59.320 this and there have been many discussions on this front as you know at this committee and in many

00:35:04.120 other forum including in our office and with the prime minister on this and where we were able to

00:35:09.080 come down um as as quickly as we could in our advice to him and in terms of the steps he then

00:35:14.760 took was that we actually needed someone and actually this is the same thing uh interestingly

00:35:20.680 that the previous government did when they appointed uh former governor general david johnson

00:35:25.880 to do a similar task was to figure out what was needed where were the gaps between as i was

00:35:31.240 starting to mention to you nsira and nsi cop what were they not able to cover what did the public

00:35:36.840 still need beyond that to ensure that we are instilling the confidence in them that they

00:35:41.480 deserve to have in our institutions because that's extraordinarily important to us and ensuring that

00:35:47.400 the right mandates are created that the right kind of um whether it's an inquiry or something else

00:35:53.960 and as i said my opening statement the prime minister committed to follow through on whatever

00:35:57.240 the recommendations are that come out of the special rapporteur on this it's not clear what

00:36:01.640 the question should be it's not clear what body is best to look at it given the sensitive nature

00:36:06.360 of the information public yes looked at some security information this is almost entirely

00:36:11.720 national security information so figuring out how to do that is a task that he's actually going to

00:36:17.400 be reporting back within a few weeks and i hope we can wait for that so that we can then do take

00:36:22.280 those responsible next steps thank you so much ms telford and through the chair as always could you

00:36:27.800 just clarify were you informed last year about the chinese government funding at least 11 liberal and

00:36:33.320 conservative candidates in the 2019 federal election so i um madam chair i will repeat um

00:36:40.120 again what was what i've said a couple of times uh to members from the opposition which is what the

00:36:46.520 nsia said when they were previously here at committee i don't have information beyond being

00:36:51.000 able to say this and i thought this was pretty definitive that the connection that was being

00:36:54.600 made between these candidates and the funds was inaccurate okay so i i'm sorry to be upsetting

00:37:03.160 you on these questions but the prime minister said let me be clear i do not have any information nor

00:37:08.440 have i been briefed on any federal candidates receiving any money from china so it feels like

00:37:13.720 we got a clear answer and i'm not getting that clear answer from you so i'm just trying to

00:37:18.760 understand this it doesn't seem to make sense and you know i i am not one to bring in uh staff

00:37:24.920 members lightly i take the role of people who are in charge really seriously however every time

00:37:32.440 we turn around it feels like there's another article there's another thing coming out and this

00:37:37.080 slippery slope of information coming in and out and not being clear is leading people to distrust

00:37:42.440 so i'm just can you be as clear as the prime minister seems to be because canadians are not

00:37:48.200 having faith in the prime minister or in these roles and it worries me so can you make sense of

00:37:53.800 that madam chair it sounds like the member thinks that the prime minister was clear on this i think

00:37:59.640 the prime minister was clear on this i agree with what the prime minister said so i'm not really

00:38:03.720 sure how to add to that because it sounds like if i'm adding to that i'm actually confusing matters

00:38:07.160 so um i agree with what you're saying or what's being said that's my time thank you

00:38:14.360 thank you mrs blaney we will now enter to the second round of questions and we will start with

00:38:23.240 mr cooper followed by miss o'connell so you have madame normandette followed by madame

00:38:29.720 normandette and then madame blaney mr bertholdt i'm an em romanado thank you very much madam

00:38:36.520 chair thank you mr helford for appearing uh mr helford through you madam chair uh mr brock

00:38:43.640 provided the context of the special report date stamped january of 2022 so now that he has provided

00:38:51.960 that context can you confirm the prime minister received that document and did he read it

00:38:59.720 so in terms of the specific document that you're referencing that was mentioned in reporting uh

00:39:05.080 sorry madam chair that the um and that the previous member was mentioning i can't speak

00:39:09.720 to whether or not we've been briefed on um any specific documents or any specific subjects

00:39:15.560 but taking a step back from that and to the member's second part of his question of course

00:39:21.080 the prime minister reads any documents he does receive thank you madam chair uh miss telford

00:39:28.680 when was the prime minister first briefed about beijing's election interference in the 2019

00:39:35.320 election when um so you've received from madam speaker the committee has received from the nsia

00:39:45.400 the list of formal briefings that was put together as as best everybody could uh in terms of formal

00:39:51.720 briefings on subjects to do with election foreign interference respectfully for you madam chair

00:39:56.680 not just asking about formal briefings i'm asking when did the prime minister become aware of beijing's

00:40:03.160 election interference in the 2019 election just the date please it's been five months

00:40:07.560 it's been repeatedly asked you're the top official in the prime minister's office

00:40:11.880 canadians deserve to know when he first learned about it would you please answer

00:40:17.800 madam madam speaker i would just take a or madam chair i would take a step back

00:40:22.760 and just say this has been an ongoing conversation over many months and years as to what

00:40:29.400 prospects were of potential foreign interference it's why these different organizations were in

00:40:33.640 place it's why there was a report that came out of the 2019 campaign yeah or election again

00:40:40.040 ms telford i want to be clear that canadians deserve a date so maybe to uh provide uh some

00:40:47.720 you know to to uh provide further clarity uh the intelligence assessment secretariat

00:40:54.120 of the PCO prepared a daily foreign intelligence brief dated February 21st, 2020, in which

00:41:05.000 that document has been produced to this committee, a heavily redacted version of that document.

00:41:10.860 It speaks of, quote, subtle but effective interference networks in the context of Beijing

00:41:17.480 and its interference in the 2019 election.

00:41:21.140 It speaks of, quote,

00:41:22.620 investigations into activities linked to the Canadian federal election in 2019

00:41:27.180 reveal an active foreign interference network.

00:41:30.920 On what date did the Prime Minister receive this document?

00:41:36.160 I could not tell you what date he did or didn't receive a document.

00:41:41.240 Did the Prime Minister receive that document?

00:41:44.360 I don't have that information in front of me

00:41:46.680 terms of that specific document you're holding you don't have any information about that document

00:41:51.400 now it was a daily and foreign intelligence brief for you madam chair was in the produce it was a

00:41:56.440 daily foreign intelligence brief ms thomas said that it would have been in the prime minister's

00:42:01.720 daily reading material would she be wrong it may have been um i am not suggesting she's wrong it's

00:42:10.120 that i can't speak to where he was that day sometimes briefs briefs come in a whole bunch

00:42:14.520 of different formats um because those that those kinds of pieces of information are not just

00:42:19.240 floating around um so i don't know whether he got a verbal brief that day whether he got a weekly

00:42:24.280 wrap up that week or whether this was a daily one that he had on his desk this this document has

00:42:29.240 been widely reported it's one of the very few documents that have been produced to this committee

00:42:34.600 and it's highly relevant to the question of what the prime minister knew and when he knew about

00:42:40.280 beijing's election interference and your inability or refusal to answer whether the prime minister

00:42:47.000 had in fact read this document was briefed about it is troubling it doesn't inspire confidence in

00:42:54.360 in fact it invites suspicion and perhaps your unwillingness to confirm that is because as global

00:43:03.800 News has reported, that document spoke of, quote, foreign interference networks in the greater

00:43:10.840 Toronto area that implicate at least 11 candidates in the 2019 election, that Beijing's Toronto

00:43:19.600 consulate was involved, and that it involved the clandestine transfer of funds. So, in other words,

00:43:30.380 the prime minister seemingly knew as early as february of 2020 about candidates why has he

00:43:40.620 misled canadians for the past five months um so a couple things madam uh chair is one everything

00:43:49.740 the prime minister receives um he spends a lot of time with and he most definitely reads

00:43:56.460 so i can confirm that if they are documents that he received he absolutely read them second that

00:44:02.220 he's briefed on matters of foreign interference and matters of election foreign interference as

00:44:06.940 per the documents you have received um on a regular and ongoing basis and third on the

00:44:13.340 specifics of what of what you were referencing there i can't get into unfortunately in this

00:44:17.740 public setting um what was or wasn't briefed on um in in in the level of specificity you'd like

00:44:27.020 thank you

00:44:32.540 mrs o'connell thank you madam chair thank you miss telford for being here um i want to start

00:44:39.100 off with kind of following up where the conservatives just left off i think the

00:44:43.340 Conservatives would have Canadians believe that foreign interference just began in 2019 and that

00:44:50.860 this is a relatively new phenomenon and they would like to find some smoking gun date. In fact,

00:44:59.660 in your answer, Ms. Helford, you talked about the fact that foreign interference is ongoing and

00:45:04.540 that's why there are several briefings on the topic. In addition to that, members of the House

00:45:11.100 would have actually received the 2019 and SACOP annual report that talks about foreign interference

00:45:17.500 so they can look at their own dates of in terms of when they were notified but i want to get to

00:45:23.260 the issues around foreign interference the fact that it's not new and you mentioned in your opening

00:45:30.380 statement the fact that canada is a net importer of intelligence we can look at the situation

00:45:37.100 that's happening in the u.s right now they're having very similar debates about foreign

00:45:41.500 interference and national security information being in the public realm and some of the comments

00:45:49.180 being made in the u.s right now are questioning if national security information is not held

00:45:56.540 with the care and sensitivity that it deserves will our ally or in the u.s context will allies

00:46:04.300 not want to share information with countries who don't treat foreign inter or national security

00:46:11.900 information securely as canada is a net importer of intelligence the request from conservatives to

00:46:20.460 have unredacted documents to share details of national security information details of briefings

00:46:27.980 um would that not pose a significant risk if canada no longer took the strong and firm approach

00:46:37.100 to handle national security with the utmost most care and sensitivity that it deserves would that

00:46:44.380 put us in risk of not receiving intelligence from for example our five eyes allies

00:46:50.700 um thank you madam chair and that is why i raised it in the opening statement that that is something

00:46:58.300 that we have to always be guarding against and careful about we have to treat this material

00:47:03.980 with care both because it can put lives at risk most importantly because it's in canada's national

00:47:11.340 interest to to keep this information protected but also because of the impact it could have

00:47:19.100 in terms of relationships with allies who we share intelligence with and who we receive intelligence

00:47:23.260 from and it's actually one of the reasons that the government put into place uh nsi cop um because it

00:47:30.700 was actually something we looked at our allies many of whom already had organizations like that

00:47:35.420 and it was something that the government before the current government um did not put in place

00:47:40.780 and did not take any steps on this front despite having been embroiled in the afghan detainee issue

00:47:46.300 which i spoke to in my opening statement as well and they just continued to provide information to

00:47:51.340 the or continued to refuse to provide information to the house when the house was looking for it then

00:47:57.020 and it was having lived through that experience that the prime minister made the commitment in

00:48:00.780 the 2015 platform that we needed a body like nsikop and then some time was spent actually

00:48:05.820 working with allies and learning from allies on how to put that together properly and in a way

00:48:10.700 that could even be improved on from their own experiences um before it was uh before it was

00:48:16.460 launched i think midway through the first mandate thank you and madam chair through you um the

00:48:22.540 leader of the conservative party mr polyev has said he refuses to get briefed on national security

00:48:28.300 matters because he doesn't want to then be restricted to speak uh the former leader mr

00:48:33.980 Mr. O'Toole removed members from NSACOP.

00:48:38.220 There were statements that the now leader of the Conservatives, but when he was the

00:48:42.940 Minister of Democratic Institutions, didn't take action on strengthening our democracy

00:48:47.480 because he felt it wasn't in his partisan issues, yet the Conservatives continually

00:48:54.500 remove their members from learning the facts of the national security situation going on

00:49:01.700 in this country in a secure way, yet when you appear today, and reasonably so, say there

00:49:08.800 are going to be limitations on some of the information you can share in an open setting,

00:49:14.400 conservatives say, what are you hiding, et cetera, Mr. Cooper's used collusion in the

00:49:19.260 past.

00:49:20.260 Could you maybe speak to the fact, the reasonableness, that if Mr. Polyev doesn't want to be brief

00:49:26.820 so that he is no longer constrained to keep national security matters confidential that

00:49:34.180 can you perhaps speak to why you're the sensitivity around your testimony today

00:49:40.820 um just very briefly uh i i do sign documents um that are declarations of indoctrination when i um

00:49:49.940 in order to become cleared and i take those things very seriously uh and i think you know as

00:49:55.780 as was mentioned madam chair even the leader of the official opposition takes them so seriously

00:50:00.260 that that's why he did not want to be briefed or cleared um and so i think it sounds like

00:50:05.700 people understand why i can't speak to these things thank you

00:50:14.420 madame normandy madame normandy thank you very much madam chair madame telford i'd like to come

00:50:20.740 back to a response that you gave to my colleague, Madame Gaudreau, through you, Madame Chair.

00:50:26.000 You mentioned that when information is received, the criterion that is used to know whether

00:50:32.020 it would be transferred to the PM is obvious. You see it in the information, whether it

00:50:37.340 should be sent or not. Would that follow under what is evident, for example, ridings that

00:50:45.820 receive money directly or indirectly from the chinese consulate in toronto so i will just i

00:50:53.660 will go back again um either to as one of the other members of the opposition said the prime

00:50:58.940 minister's words or the nsia words to this in the nsia's case it was to this committee or the prime

00:51:05.180 minister's words in in the house or publicly um that the connection being drawn between those

00:51:13.020 candidates and those funds is something that um hadn't been briefed on and wasn't accurate in

00:51:18.300 terms of how the reporting was and the reporting evolved over time as well i would just note

00:51:24.460 but it would seem that it's information that would deserve being transferred to the

00:51:28.700 pm would it not thank you very much you mentioned also earlier always being present or nearly

00:51:34.540 present when the prime minister receives information in this case case were you

00:51:39.900 present when this information was transmitted whether it was by document or by informal meeting

00:51:46.060 because you said it was not a formal it from february 2020 to recall being present with the

00:51:53.900 prime minister when the information was transmitted so madam chair if if we're talking about the

00:52:01.820 information that i just talked about being inaccurate um then there wasn't such a meeting

00:52:08.140 to be present at um but as i said in my opening statement i am usually there when he's being

00:52:13.660 briefed there are times i'm not when he's traveling and i'm not on that trip and he's

00:52:17.340 getting briefed directly then i'm not getting briefed at the same time and those would be

00:52:20.380 some of the rare occasions where i would be getting briefed separately um but uh

00:52:26.940 in terms of the specific that you're referencing it it doesn't um there's nothing more i think i

00:52:32.620 can say on that okay don't but nevertheless when you receive information and when you consider that

00:52:40.140 it is inaccurate the information is still received do you recall receiving the information and then

00:52:45.580 deemed it incorrect afterwards no i think yeah some of that uh some of that is uh um

00:52:56.380 we learned through reporting um as as i think both have said and uh and yes then there then

00:53:01.900 there were conversations to try to figure out what some of these things were and you can you

00:53:05.980 can see that in some of the timeline here too merci thank you so i think that in french like

00:53:18.060 in punjabi people speak a bit quicker so they so two two and a half minutes isn't very much time

00:53:25.020 but i didn't want to interrupt but if you could speak a bit more slowly i i think madame goudreau

00:53:31.500 and others just to let you know that i understand that there are sometimes more words that need to

00:53:38.780 be used so i will give you a bit more time but the for the interpreters if you could speak a bit more

00:53:45.820 slowly i i will i will work with you if we could do so next time does that work okay thank you very

00:53:52.220 much madame blaney thank you so much chair so my question again returns to the lack of trust that

00:54:01.660 we see in canadians having for our institutions and that it's really been shaken by these

00:54:06.700 allegations so should the current rapporteur david johnston recommend against moving forward

00:54:13.420 with a public inquiry in may do do you think miss telford that canadians will accept that

00:54:20.300 do you see any scenario where not moving forward with a public inquiry will help

00:54:30.300 i think i don't want to presume on on what the special rapporteur is going to recommend

00:54:35.580 um and uh the the government and the prime minister has committed to following through on

00:54:40.620 on the recommendations and to uh when they come forward and it's only it's not very long from now

00:54:47.900 um so i i think we need to make sure that we follow through on that as expeditiously as

00:54:53.420 possible so that we can all together across all parties um build build trust and continue to build

00:55:00.060 trust in what is a is a troubling issue for everybody uh we all should be working on this

00:55:05.420 together so you know i think you mentioned uh earlier in your testimony through the chair of

00:55:11.900 course a past example where there was a rapporteur that was set up in place before an inquiry i just

00:55:19.260 want to be clear that in that case um the terms of the inquiry was the focus of the rapporteur to

00:55:25.980 actually look at what those terms would be and how they would be followed so right now the process

00:55:30.380 that that's happening in canada is sort of we're giving a broad brush to a rapporteur to just sort

00:55:36.300 of tell us what to do next it seems like that's the take of the government instead of saying what

00:55:41.820 is going to be transparent and clear for canadians we know that there's been a lot of things said

00:55:46.780 it's become very partisan there's a lot of distrust in our institutions which which concerns me

00:55:53.100 greatly so i'm just wondering you know i understand that you were trying to say that there's been

00:55:57.980 rapporteurs before inquiries but i think it's clear that we also know that those rapporteurs

00:56:03.180 were set up to create the spectrum of what the inquiry would look like this is very different so

00:56:08.860 i'm going to go back to the original question which is do you think canadians will stand for

00:56:13.740 it and in the sense of the role that you play with the prime minister is there any concern

00:56:19.020 there that the voice of canadians is not being heard and what they need isn't being delivered

00:56:26.300 um so madam chair just first off i mean i agree with the concern and i think we should be all

00:56:32.140 working to figure out um paths forward uh that can be constructive and ones that can be communicating

00:56:38.620 as clearly to Canadians as possible that their institutions are strong and that they can have

00:56:44.900 faith in their electoral systems and that yes there is this this threat that we have been

00:56:50.460 talking about for years but that obviously has received some more attention of late and being

00:56:54.920 able to explain clearly and concisely what that is and how the systems work to combat it I think

00:57:00.600 is extremely important. I'm not sure my understanding of the history of the previous

00:57:04.040 rapporteur is the same as as yours um but maybe we can we'll figure that out later um and uh i

00:57:10.440 think but answering your final point i think it's extremely important that we all figure out the

00:57:15.400 answer to that um so i actually don't know that we're disagreeing that much other than uh i don't

00:57:21.160 want to presume where the special rapporteur goes whether it's to set an inquiry or come up with some

00:57:27.160 other way of assuring canadians that all the bases are being covered here

00:57:34.040 Thank you. Mr. Berthold, you have five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ms. Telford.

00:57:43.780 Ms. Telford, I read an article from February 17th, which talked about a Chinese strategy to influence the 2021 Canadian election.

00:57:54.280 These are information that Canadians have seen published. The Globe and Mail saw the documents from CSIS. Did the Prime Minister also see these documents?

00:58:04.040 I can't, unfortunately, speak to specifics of what the Prime Minister has or has not

00:58:14.100 been briefed on in all of this, but as I said before, in taking a step back from the specifics

00:58:20.220 of your question, the Prime Minister has been briefed regularly and gets information in

00:58:24.780 a variety of different ways on what was happening around election interference in the last two

00:58:30.360 elections.

00:58:31.360 Thank you. You already said that. Did you see these documents?

00:58:36.360 The answer would be the same for me.

00:58:40.360 The documents that were shared with our Five Eyes, allies with the governments of France and the Germans,

00:58:49.360 that were reported on in the Globe and Mail, that Canadians were made aware of in newspaper articles,

00:58:55.360 the Prime Minister certainly saw these documents. Did he not?

00:58:59.360 As I said, I can't get into what the Prime Minister has or has not been briefed on in

00:59:05.800 terms of specifics of intelligence.

00:59:10.720 It's frustrating, I know, for me as well.

00:59:14.620 But it's for very important reasons that I laid out in my opening statement.

00:59:19.400 I'm trying to help you, Ms. Telford.

00:59:21.000 In the days that followed the report in the February 17th by the Globe and Mail, the Prime

00:59:26.500 Minister himself said in response to questions on these documents we are very

00:59:29.860 concerned by the leaks particularly because there is so much inaccuracy in

00:59:34.900 the leaks so the Prime Minister himself commented on the content of this report

00:59:39.160 what revelations by the report of February 17th were inaccurate as the

00:59:44.980 Prime Minister said so I am I've already referenced over the

00:59:55.600 course of the committee today, Madam Chair, at least one inaccuracy that the

01:00:00.340 NSIA has spoken to from reporting more broadly. I can't unfortunately go

01:00:07.000 further than where the NSIA went or the director of CSIS went in when they were

01:00:11.620 speaking before the committee.

01:00:14.020 We'll review the facts reported by the Globe and Mail, Ms. Telford, because these

01:00:18.480 reports are drawn from a series of intelligence collection documents. The

01:00:24.340 first fact the objectives of Beijing were to bring in a minority government

01:00:30.960 was that inaccurate was that what the Prime Minister was referring to as being

01:00:36.340 inaccurate there have been a number of things we've been following up obviously

01:00:43.100 on the reporting throughout the last number of months and and there have been

01:00:50.380 a number of things that don't add up in the way that that we know them or the

01:00:55.560 officials are able to tell us about. Thank you. I will raise another fact. The

01:01:00.760 objectives of Beijing were to break to damage conservative candidates that

01:01:08.140 were seen as being harmful to its objectives. Did the Prime Minister see

01:01:11.080 that as inaccurate as well? I would take a step back to where the where Canada

01:01:18.460 was in its relations with china going into the 2019 and 2021 elections they were probably at

01:01:26.380 their lowest point madame telford miss telford the question was this is something that i didn't want

01:01:35.580 to do but the time for in interpreters will not be taken out of your time i will give it to you

01:01:45.740 if we could take a bit more time and continue as we are doing I think that

01:01:51.680 would be very good so I I understand very well that you have questions and I

01:02:00.160 have both official languages my first language is Punjabi it takes a bit

01:02:04.580 longer to say things in that language so I know you don't speak it but you speak

01:02:08.200 French so I will give you time if you could not interrupt that would be better

01:02:15.640 is that okay okay so Madame Telford the Beijing's tactics were given cash

01:02:27.340 donations to those is it was that deemed inaccurate by the Prime Minister well as

01:02:35.960 As it relates to the stories around the 11 candidates, I think you've already heard

01:02:40.180 me repeatedly, Madam Chair, talk about how both the NSIA and the Prime Minister have

01:02:44.780 spoken to that and to where they saw a gap and an inaccuracy in the reporting.

01:02:50.840 Beijing was asking companies to hire international students and to have them hired on summer

01:02:59.460 election campaigns.

01:03:00.820 Was that deemed to be inaccurate by the Prime Minister?

01:03:03.700 I can't get into going further than they did, in terms of the NSIA, the Director of CSIS,

01:03:11.400 the many other experts that have come before you on these issues.

01:03:14.380 Two last questions, Madam Chair.

01:03:18.460 Some political campaigns were seeing a difference between the donation and the amount reimbursed.

01:03:27.200 Is that deemed inaccurate by the Prime Minister?

01:03:31.420 I would just say on matters related to fundraising and donations, Madam Chair, and I think all members here are very familiar with this.

01:03:40.200 I certainly am from my days as a past campaign director.

01:03:44.020 There are very robust election finance laws in this country.

01:03:47.780 And actually, they were made even more robust and transparent under this government.

01:03:52.360 And if there were concerns there, there are methods to investigate any fundraising anomalies that are seen.

01:04:01.420 or alleged to have happened thank you thank you very much madam chair

01:04:08.140 madam telford the prime minister is very quick to reveal when information is false and there is

01:04:18.620 another thing that i would like to talk about in the article the diplomats from the beijing

01:04:24.700 consulates including former uh heads of consulates uh were made statements that were false with

01:04:32.620 did he deem this uh inaccurate when there was so much inaccuracy in these articles that he

01:04:38.620 commented on on the report the cesus report himself and you refuse to make any comments on

01:04:45.980 them yourself madam chair i appreciate that we are now quick to respond to things when i thought

01:04:52.860 we had been told many times we have not been quick to respond to things in the past um and part of

01:04:58.140 the reason we haven't always been able to be as quick as boy we wish we all could be in responding

01:05:03.180 to questions on this is because this information and the subject matter is just so very important

01:05:09.500 uh that it's so important as i said in the opening statement that when you're getting fragments of

01:05:13.420 information um not only to you know figure out what those fragments are and where they situate

01:05:18.540 but to put them into a broader context and being able to figure out what you can and can't say

01:05:23.660 publicly is not something that i should be sitting here doing and that's why i set out in the

01:05:27.900 beginning i've got to respect the boundaries uh that were set by uh the national security

01:05:33.020 and intelligence advisor and the director of thesis when they were here before me

01:05:39.100 merci madame thank you madam telford miss romanado thank you very much madam chair and through you

01:05:46.460 i'd like to thank miss telford for being with us today um i just want to highlight a couple of

01:05:51.900 things that i i heard today and i want to reiterate there's a big difference between

01:05:56.860 a willingness to share information and a capability to share information and miss

01:06:01.740 telford you've explained multiple times it's it's not a lack of willingness but in terms of national

01:06:07.980 security issues we cannot share this information you also in your opening statement explained a

01:06:15.580 little bit about the impact of that and my colleague miss o'connell referred to that with

01:06:21.340 respect to our relationship with our five eyes partners the issue of foreign interference in

01:06:28.300 elections is not something new this is something that new zealand is looking at right now in terms

01:06:33.660 of their elections this is something that's happening around the world we saw this in a lot

01:06:37.980 in the presidential election in 2015 questions about that you did mention the importance of

01:06:46.700 being able to share that information and receive that information from our five eyes partners but

01:06:52.940 you also said something that was really important to me as you know my son is an intelligence officer

01:06:57.580 in the canadian armed forces so i know full well the importance of maintaining

01:07:02.540 information that does not belong in the public sphere and to do so and i will put in quotes

01:07:11.320 exactly what you said it puts lives in danger we created the nc cop committee of parliamentarians

01:07:19.200 and i've looked at those who sit on this committee and i have full confidence in the

01:07:27.360 members of ENCICOP that are from all of our parties, including a retired colonel with over 25 years of service who sits on this committee.

01:07:37.620 And I have the full trust in his capability to look at something like this.

01:07:43.360 Given the measures that the Prime Minister has taken through various tactics, whether it be through the naming of a special rapporteur,

01:07:52.060 we have site we have the panel we have the national security and intelligence advisor we

01:07:57.740 have nccop we have proc looking at this i believe also it's come up in the ethics committee do you

01:08:03.820 believe that the question of foreign interference and how to detect deter and counter it will take

01:08:11.180 multiple multiple prong approach given the complexity of this issue and the um evolving

01:08:21.180 threats of foreign interference um so a couple quick things just on your on your

01:08:29.360 first point of how this is this is not a new problem I believe it was in the

01:08:33.540 CSIS documents that were tabled some time ahead of my appearance in the last

01:08:39.560 number of days it talked about actually has thesis briefed us in in 2015 when we

01:08:45.040 first got into government this has been this was this was not new to our

01:08:49.620 government but as I said in the opening statement it has been evolving and this

01:08:53.220 government has taken more steps than than anyone has before and actually one

01:09:00.000 of the steps you mentioned a number of them there and one other one that

01:09:03.960 involves our allies is the rapid response mechanism that Canada actually

01:09:08.340 played a leadership role because it was the G7 meeting that was in Charlevoix

01:09:14.220 where that came about and actually some additional countries have joined beyond

01:09:19.260 the g7 um to be part of that work uh so canada's actually been leading on this in in the world and

01:09:25.500 to your point of the multi-pronged nature of this it's why in 2019 um i mentioned this uh in my

01:09:32.860 opening as well there was a kind of pan-governmental whole of government um plan to protect democracy

01:09:38.300 that was introduced uh because it has to take into account misinformation and disinformation

01:09:43.100 as well and so the department of heritage is involved and there's you know many many different

01:09:49.420 departments and agencies throughout government have to be thinking about these things and are

01:09:54.380 and have been for a number of years now though there's obviously still more work to do

01:10:00.540 thank you so much and i brought this up in a previous um a previous proc meeting

01:10:06.300 would you say that perhaps one of the recommendations that proc can make coming

01:10:13.020 out of this this study would be to make sure that members of parliament are adequately briefed on how

01:10:20.220 to recognize and mitigate and prevent foreign interference would you recommend that this

01:10:27.420 committee suggest that members of parliament and perhaps even their staff be briefed on what to

01:10:32.940 look for uh not only in election period but in terms of our day-to-day actions would you recommend

01:10:41.500 that members of parliament and their staff receives some training in this regard

01:10:47.180 miss telford before you answer and i will provide you time to answer i just want members to know in

01:10:53.180 the room that you are recognizing that the camera might not be switching from the person who is

01:10:57.900 speaking at all times i know mr romanado you did not notice that the camera was not on you

01:11:02.700 in the room we understand that for public broadcasting on pearl view that it is switching

01:11:09.020 so that issue for the purposes of this room um we will get sorted out but for the public

01:11:15.820 mrs romanado not only did they hear you they saw you and that is something that's very important

01:11:20.860 to us here.

01:11:22.580 Mrs. Telford?

01:11:24.880 Just two quick thoughts on that.

01:11:27.240 One is

01:11:28.100 certainly there is training

01:11:30.620 for, and I received

01:11:33.120 it when I first came into government,

01:11:35.480 one of the more eye-opening briefings

01:11:37.220 you can get.

01:11:38.980 But in terms

01:11:41.080 of members of Parliament and whether more should happen

01:11:43.000 on that front, I believe there were

01:11:45.080 recommendations about that. I'm now

01:11:46.820 not recalling which

01:11:48.880 which of the reports but i think coming out of nsi cop actually um and that is also has

01:11:55.760 subsequently been followed up by minister leblanc and clerk charrette in the report that they just

01:12:01.280 produced showing all the different actions where they went through all the different reports that

01:12:05.440 have been put out in the last not that many years um and identified sort of what all of the different

01:12:11.840 uh kind of next steps still are to be taken and by whom and by when and i believe that is in there

01:12:18.880 Thank you.

01:12:22.720 Continuing on with our third round, we will be starting with Mr. Barrett,

01:12:27.060 Suivi par Monsieur Fergus, followed by Mr. Fergus and Madame Nomadon, and then Ms. Blaney.

01:12:34.800 Madame Thomas, a pre-Monsieur Turnbull, and then Mr. Turnbull.

01:12:39.700 Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ms. Telford, for being here today.

01:12:44.100 In the document received from the Privy Council Office, the Prime Minister's Department, that was requested on March the 2nd, it was received by this committee this morning.

01:12:57.800 It states that on September 28th that cleared Liberal Party of Canada representatives were given a security briefing.

01:13:07.080 Who were the senior Liberal Party officials who were part of that briefing?

01:13:10.900 uh i was not um and i believe you have invited to this committee the uh the national campaign

01:13:20.340 directors of the 2019 and 2021 campaigns um so they can speak to that in more detail do you know

01:13:27.300 who the cleared representatives were for the liberal party i do know that azam ishmael who

01:13:31.940 you have invited to the committee uh was one of those cleared representatives was zita astravaz

01:13:36.340 one of those uh cleared individuals? I don't believe so. Okay I can't say that with absolute

01:13:41.460 certainty but I don't believe so. To your knowledge has or has it been brought to your attention

01:13:48.820 since that time that the then candidate for Don Valley North was made aware of any of the briefing

01:13:57.620 the contents of any of the briefings given to cleared officials with the Liberal Party?

01:14:02.020 sorry i'm not sure i'm following was he well did did the candidate for don valley north

01:14:11.640 to your knowledge uh was he given a readout or made aware of the contents of the briefing that

01:14:19.500 was given to the cleared officials with the liberal party uh so madam chair not not to my

01:14:26.080 knowledge but i was not involved in that at all um during the campaigns i was on a full-time leave

01:14:31.240 for both campaigns on the road with the prime minister for the whole campaign so these were

01:14:35.240 things managed by headquarters okay um the 25 ridings in the gta who would have been responsible

01:14:44.120 for them to the best of your knowledge during the campaign on behalf of the party

01:14:50.680 in i'm not sure i'm understanding again madam chair do you mean in terms of who was kind of

01:14:55.080 the campaign coordinator for the gta yeah region regional organizer i'm not even sure i'm not the

01:15:00.120 best person to speak to that um i i really you know if you if you wanted to ask me about 2015

01:15:05.080 i could help you out um but uh you're gonna need to talk to the 2019 or 2021 campaign directors i'm

01:15:09.880 not even sure how it was carved up within the gta okay so that that's not something that you would

01:15:14.840 have known in your capacity on that campaign no i'm sure i'm sure i know the person but i'm not

01:15:19.880 sure which person it was or if it was even done in the way that you're describing okay and your

01:15:24.200 role on the campaign was i was on the bus as they say um or on the plane uh throughout the entire

01:15:31.800 can the entirety of the campaign in 2019 and 21. would you have access to those names now if you

01:15:37.480 asked um as yes i'm sure i'm sure i could follow up yes would you undertake to provide those names

01:15:47.000 uh the name of the individuals responsible for the the gta during the 2019 election campaign

01:15:52.360 could you provide those to the committee so madam chair i can follow up on government side

01:15:57.320 though i would encourage the parliamentary committee since since you have the national

01:16:00.760 campaign directors from those campaigns coming that it's probably more appropriate to be coming

01:16:04.280 from the party side yep but just to be clear you're going to but i'll undertake i will take

01:16:09.880 it back and thank you very much um so the there there were media reports that there was an urgent

01:16:19.480 briefing given to the cleared Liberal Party officials um and it would be helpful to know

01:16:26.440 again in that same context we will uh ask the Liberal Party officials when they come who their

01:16:31.800 what their list of cleared officials were if you could make the same inquiry um and provide that

01:16:36.600 information to us and you've just you've indicated to the affirmative yes okay thank you very much

01:16:42.040 that would be incredibly helpful um because this speaks to of course the concern that information

01:16:47.640 was made available um to uh to these officials who would then it would be reasonably expected

01:16:55.400 that they provided it to the prime minister which is what you said if if if you received

01:16:59.400 the information you share that information with with the prime minister yes and you know madam

01:17:05.880 chair i am i have every confidence that they would talk to the prime minister about anything they

01:17:10.760 I found out. Did you recommend to the Prime Minister against removing the

01:17:18.960 candidate from Don Valley North as a as a candidate for election?

01:17:27.720 Madam Chair, the the member that's being discussed stepped outside of caucus

01:17:35.160 quite recently so I'm not sure what is being referred to in did the question is

01:17:42.000 is exactly as stated it's if you recommended when the candidate for Don

01:17:48.340 Valley North was a candidate for election if you recommended against his

01:17:55.100 removal from from the slate of candidates running for the Liberal Party

01:18:00.080 what I can say is I was never involved in a conversation on the subject

01:18:05.860 okay conversations did occur no i'm saying i i was not privy to a conversation i

01:18:12.820 i don't have an answer for you on this because there was no conversation that i was

01:18:17.140 part of on this subject excellent thank you mr barrett um i will just like to confirm that as

01:18:26.900 part of the witnesses who we have asked to appear campaign managers have been invited

01:18:33.140 to a future meeting and we do anticipate that meeting taking place in the month of april

01:18:38.420 invitations have been sent out to the four names that we were provided one has confirmed and we're

01:18:44.340 just pending responses from the other three and we hope to have those soon and we'll share that

01:18:51.220 information with all members as it becomes available mr fergus mr fergus you have the floor

01:18:59.540 Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And through you, I would like to thank Ms. Telford for joining us today.

01:19:08.840 It's very, she's been speaking from the heart and I appreciate the time that she's taking to answer our questions on national security.

01:19:19.740 Ms. Telford, you mentioned in your statement something that, in my opinion, wasn't fully

01:19:28.260 appreciated in many of the hyper-partisan discussions on the topic. When we are dealing

01:19:37.220 with foreign interference, a large part of what needs to be done, the measures to be taken

01:19:43.580 are protected by politicians.

01:19:47.300 It would be completely inappropriate for politicians to be informed.

01:19:55.440 For example, CSIS transmits information to the RCMP or the Federal Election Commissioner

01:20:01.360 so that they can launch inquiries, and it is not up to politicians to direct investigations.

01:20:09.600 Once again, it would be completely inappropriate.

01:20:12.500 In your experience, do these organizations, do they already have cabinet permission to act and use the powers and tools that are available to them?

01:20:27.620 i i certainly believe so um and uh this would be the kind of thing again that uh an acira for

01:20:38.500 example or nsi cop um through their different purviews could be making recommendations on if

01:20:44.740 they did see any gaps uh but they certainly law enforcement and security agencies have a number

01:20:50.900 of different authorities that they do not need um nor should they have prime minister or or cabinet

01:20:56.420 authorities in order to proceed on so just to confirm it's not up to the prime minister's

01:21:06.340 office to direct the activities of the rcmp or of or of cses absolutely not at all thank you

01:21:15.460 the director of cses also told this committee that the cses act provides a number of tools

01:21:24.260 for thesis to investigate foreign interference activities adding and if i can just find the

01:21:30.420 quotation here it is we investigate these allegations and we use all the tools that

01:21:37.060 are disposed to try to better understand characterize these activities and reduce

01:21:42.100 the threat where possible are you at all familiar with these tools yes

01:21:47.620 are these can you provide that these two are these tools uh as far as you know satisfactory

01:22:00.020 um look i think i think there is uh we're learning quite literally every day um more

01:22:10.260 and more information that is going to teach us and and teach different parts of government

01:22:15.380 how they can improve and what more tools they may or may not need to have um you know these

01:22:22.100 these last number of months even just in terms of trying to figure out how to

01:22:25.840 how to communicate to the public on some of this uh has been an exercise uh for everybody in in

01:22:33.020 some cases in new and different ways um less so perhaps for the political side but um i think

01:22:40.300 I think the tools have been used more than they ever have before is what is my understanding and

01:22:48.400 I think you heard that from David Vigneault when he was here as the CSIS director and agencies are

01:22:53.380 talking to each other regularly and they brief up regularly to ministers to prime minister to each

01:23:00.660 other and it's because this has been as I said while it's not a new threat it is a evolving one

01:23:06.940 and obviously as as one of the other members here said you know there's been a lot of events in the

01:23:11.340 last number of years so whether it was you know misinformation and disinformation being spread

01:23:16.460 during covid which was talked about in in one of the i think it was the nsi cop reports whether

01:23:21.580 it's talking about election foreign interference uh attempts whether it's looking at um businesses

01:23:29.260 as i mentioned in my opening statement and the minister from uh you know innovation uh was

01:23:34.220 looking and actually he made changes uh earlier on um within the last number of years on that front

01:23:41.580 like i think the government has to continue to keep evolving and adapting as we learn about these

01:23:47.260 threats i appreciate that if i can sneak in one last question uh the foreign affairs deputy

01:23:54.540 minister david morrison told this committee that the the cabinet directive on the protocol states

01:23:59.580 very clearly that whenever national security agencies become aware of an interference they

01:24:04.860 must consider all options to effectively address the interference so the panel is in place to

01:24:11.340 ensure that there is communication with the public if there's an incident that threatens the integrity

01:24:15.900 of our elections but before that the protocol ensures uh in the first instance that there's

01:24:21.180 consideration of what could be done to actually address the threat i think that's quite important

01:24:26.860 so mr oh the question was coming if you can ask the question so i can give a little bit

01:24:32.060 of time to answer but the beep beep beep is gone on oh i'm sorry do you think uh do you have

01:24:37.900 anything to add or can you provide any color on what the government was thinking when the

01:24:42.860 protocol was first introduced back in 2019 um so i think you know it was it was a new thing going

01:24:52.220 into 2019 and there was a review done of it the review was made public it was also studied by

01:24:57.900 nsi cop and nsi cop determined uh that the site task force and and protocol had fulfilled its

01:25:03.740 mandate um but there were some lessons learned that came out of came out of those reviews and

01:25:10.300 they were followed up on heading into the 2021 campaign and now there are some further lessons

01:25:16.060 learned that we've all seen in terms of the review coming out of the 2021 um protocol and and panel

01:25:22.620 experience um one of those areas actually is in communications and um figuring out how we

01:25:28.780 you know going to an earlier members comments around instilling trust in canadians and ensuring

01:25:33.500 we're always building trust with canadians and institutions that's one of the areas that it

01:25:37.340 talks about needing to be worked on and i think you know a great area of uh of a great area for

01:25:42.780 parliamentarians to really give some advice on as well thanks mr telford thank you madam chair

01:25:49.900 thank you

01:25:54.620 madame normanda you have the floor thank you very much

01:25:59.660 madame telford you mentioned earlier that there was no in that no information is hidden from

01:26:05.100 the prime minister is that correct

01:26:06.380 We had testimony two weeks ago at the Ethics Committee that for about 40 years CSIS tried

01:26:18.020 a number of times to sound the alarm about foreign interference to several governments.

01:26:25.880 If CSIS is sounding the alarm about information that is important, do I understand that systematically

01:26:33.480 a meeting would be organized with the PMO

01:26:37.040 so that the information is transmitted?

01:26:40.380 Yes, and it could even be,

01:26:41.640 if there's an alarm being sounded,

01:26:43.260 the meeting could happen with the prime minister

01:26:45.120 extremely quickly as well.

01:26:47.640 Sometimes these things happen same day.

01:26:49.920 And it's, you know, one of the frustrations actually

01:26:53.020 with some of the commentary on all of this

01:26:56.380 has been this feeling that there aren't channels to do that.

01:27:01.380 aren't channels to do that and I know that if it had ever been brought to my attention if it had

01:27:06.660 ever been brought to the Prime Minister's attention that there was something that was being missed

01:27:12.180 we would have acted on it I would have ensured he knew about it and I know he would have acted on it

01:27:18.020 that that hasn't been the experience anything that has come forward as I said earlier he has acted

01:27:23.140 on thank you from that moment when we were reassured that CSIS was sounding the alarm

01:27:29.540 that the information make to the makes it to the prime minister who deems whether the information

01:27:35.060 is correct or incorrect is it ceases is it madame thomas is it you in partnership with the pm is it

01:27:41.700 the pm alone who judges the quality of the information who is it um in my opening statement

01:27:49.860 um when we'll go off into into you know into a skiff uh it's usually a group of people um

01:27:58.100 usually always as the nsia wrote in her memo she's almost always there and sometimes there

01:28:05.460 will be other senior officials as she deems appropriate dependent on what we're talking about

01:28:10.660 the prime minister of course i am usually there as i said in the in the outset and then sometimes

01:28:15.140 there will be some other senior staff there as well and it's really important that we take the

01:28:20.740 intelligence and we talk it through and if we need other experts to come in and be able to answer

01:28:25.620 other questions then that will get scheduled immediately and then who makes the decision to

01:28:32.740 do in in-depth research or not on certain topics i mean largely i would defer to the experts though

01:28:42.020 through our peppering them with questions which we do a lot of as i said earlier that can sometimes

01:28:47.220 lead to even more needing to happen and if you would allow me when you refer to the experts who

01:28:52.180 are you referring to considered uh the heads of our security agencies and then the experts that

01:28:57.380 they will sometimes bring with them an expert from a particular who specializes in a particular

01:29:01.540 region in the world for example or who specializes in a certain form of intelligence collection or

01:29:06.420 that kind of thing those would be experts in my view okay merci okay thank you so when

01:29:14.660 we ask it i am the one who say it aloud and you you continued and that doesn't work for me

01:29:21.860 so please know that we have very little time and we must maximize it so i gave you a bit of extra

01:29:28.900 time and i think that it's up to me to to say yes or no and so i'm saying it do me to me

01:29:38.180 miss blaney two and a half minutes so much chair and of course as always everything through the

01:29:43.460 chair uh so i hear very clearly miss telford that you trust the right honorable david johnston

01:29:49.220 in his role as rapporteur and that's fine what i am saying is that i trust canadians i trust their

01:29:55.300 need to have trust in our electoral institutions to be able to have these serious allegations

01:30:02.340 addressed in a way that honors a national security and the need of canadians to understand what has

01:30:09.060 happened how is canada protecting itself is there any corruption that we should be concerned about

01:30:15.460 and how can canadians have faith in the election process in the future in my opinion that can only

01:30:24.260 be done through a public inquiry so i'm just i'm i guess what i am trying to understand

01:30:30.580 is what is the resistance from both the prime minister the pmo what is the resistance to

01:30:38.100 giving canadians a process that they can quantify that they can see that takes it

01:30:44.660 out of the political sphere you and i do definitely agree on that issue you know i find it frustrating

01:30:50.980 to hear from some of the conservative members that if you don't say this then it means big big

01:30:57.380 problem over here but i also don't like the sense that i think canadians are having that

01:31:02.980 these big concerns are being minimized look at all the things we've created don't worry there's

01:31:07.220 no problem to see here i don't believe that canadians agree with that so it feels like

01:31:12.740 we're having this tug of war and what we're forgetting in that tug of war is the accountability

01:31:19.380 that canadians require to have faith in our institutions so i i ask again what is the

01:31:26.900 resistance why can we not move forward in this way so that canadians have assurance that their

01:31:34.180 institutions are working responding to the changing reality that we're in and that we can

01:31:41.860 have faith in those systems um madam chair i would just like to start by saying it was suggested

01:31:50.820 perhaps that um the member trust canadians and uh and and that's somehow different than my own point

01:31:56.820 of view on things and i just want to say it is exactly because i trust canadians that i do what

01:32:03.140 i do and that i believe in elections so much and that i believe in the protection of our elections

01:32:09.060 and it's also why the government has taken the many many steps that i've already outlined and

01:32:13.780 many more that i didn't have time to get to um over the course of our time in government and

01:32:19.540 it's not so much resistance as it is actually making sure we are setting up the right things

01:32:25.860 that the right environment is being chosen to be able to dig into the matters that you're

01:32:30.420 talking about so that those exact questions you're talking about can get proper answers

01:32:34.340 Ms. Telford, on February 13th, the Globe and Mail reported that in 2019, a thesis briefing

01:32:55.100 to the Prime Minister's office and the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff, who of course is

01:32:58.520 you, warned about the connection that the former Liberal MPP for Markham Union bill had to the

01:33:03.840 Beijing consular. The nation's spy agency CSIS told the Prime Minister's office and you that

01:33:10.580 the MPP should be quote on your radar and that quote someone should reach out to Mary Ng to be

01:33:16.440 extra careful end quote. As he was her campaign co-chair of course in 2017 and was lined up to

01:33:22.900 do the same job in 2019. Did the Prime Minister's office advise the current Minister of Trade

01:33:29.020 to distance herself from the former Liberal MPP from Markham Unionville?

01:33:35.540 So a couple of things on that.

01:33:37.340 I believe the minister has already spoken to the fact that the individual you're talking about

01:33:44.260 was not a co-chair of her campaigns.

01:33:47.740 Two, I can't get into, as I've said before, I can't get into the specifics of what you're describing

01:33:52.760 as to whether it did or did not happen, whether we were or weren't briefed on it.

01:33:59.020 but what I can just to take a quick step back and try to to give you a little more than that is

01:34:03.740 it's okay memos though usually don't make those recommendations so that might be helpful just

01:34:10.460 just for clarity he he was in fact her campaign co-chair in 2017 so you cannot deny that um and

01:34:18.220 was lined up for 2019 but then promptly dropped within a matter of time of this report being

01:34:24.860 released so that's just an interesting fact for the public to consider i i would also remind you

01:34:29.980 miss telford that you do have the ability to talk about the extent and the timing of briefings and

01:34:38.380 and the reason i say that is actually because intelligence and security expert uh wesley

01:34:44.620 work who served for two terms in the prime minister's advisory with regards to intelligence

01:34:50.220 and security has said so so if he says that you can provide those details i'll take his word over

01:34:56.300 yours so let's just start on that platform shall we no no no no i'm going to pause your time

01:35:02.860 that's great i'm not sure what's happening here and i feel like we've been doing a really good

01:35:06.540 job i was actually saying that because the line of questioning has been so fruitful that perhaps

01:35:11.260 we should try to get in a little bit of extra time past two o'clock just to make sure that

01:35:15.580 we do get the information that we are requesting as I said at the top of the

01:35:20.800 meeting as I have repeated this is not a courtroom it's a procedure in House

01:35:27.160 Affairs Committee remember to Parliament sit and we do important work comments

01:35:33.820 are made through the chair and mrs. Thomas as someone who has chaired

01:35:42.820 committees very well you know very well the important work we do as chairs so

01:35:48.380 I'll ask you that comments be made through the chair the floor is back

01:35:56.200 yours

01:36:01.940 through the chair did anybody from the Prime Minister's office or the Liberal

01:36:06.100 Party headquarters relay any information to the current Minister of

01:36:10.060 of Trade regarding CSIS warnings about the former Liberal MPP from Markham Union

01:36:14.240 bill? So, Madam Chair, I would encourage the members, if they have questions on

01:36:20.580 Minister, Minister Ng and her local campaigns, to raise them with her. I do

01:36:25.900 believe she's on the public record, though, already on these questions, and

01:36:30.700 and I'm not sure things were laid out the way I understand them by the member

01:36:35.720 in terms of those experiences. And the thing I was starting to try to say earlier that

01:36:41.160 I think might be useful for the member to know is that recommendations don't tend to

01:36:45.440 come to us saying, you should go and do the threat reduction measure, if there's ever

01:36:53.080 one that's recommended. And so that's just something to consider in terms of how you

01:36:57.180 are presenting, or sorry, Madam Chair, how the member is presenting certain things as

01:37:01.420 facts that are certainly not the way that I have experienced things. Madam Chair I

01:37:06.520 wonder if the if if Miss Telford considered the Minister of Small

01:37:10.960 Business a close friend? Madam Chair yes I do. So I'm wondering then why the

01:37:19.240 individual testifying would not inform Miss Ng about the troubling information

01:37:23.940 that CSIS provided? Madam Speaker I would take you and the members back to what I

01:37:29.620 said in the opening statement even what we share between other cleared individuals within government

01:37:35.780 is something that is we have to be incredibly sensitive and careful about and threat reduction

01:37:42.260 measures if they are deemed as something that are necessary is something that um security officials

01:37:47.380 do not political staff in june 2017 at miss telford's request the national security advisor

01:37:55.780 prepared a document entitled quote memorandum to the prime minister and a draft of this memo was

01:38:01.140 viewed by global news and it states that beijing agents were assisting canadian candidates running

01:38:05.780 for political offices i'm wondering what prompted miss telford to request this memo so as i said in

01:38:12.740 my opening statement i ask a lot of questions in a lot of meetings uh and uh and sometimes my name

01:38:18.660 also gets attached to things um even even when it's not coming directly with me i have learned

01:38:24.260 over time but what I would just say Madam Speaker well I can't speak to the

01:38:29.960 specifics of of this memo for the reasons I've said previously my

01:38:35.480 understanding through the reporting is that this was an unsigned memo and it's

01:38:40.340 particularly strange and not my experience to receive unsigned memos in

01:38:45.920 PMO so I'm wondering then through you chair did the Prime Minister receive the

01:38:50.160 memo? It was requested. Madam Chair, my previous answer stands for that

01:38:57.420 question as well. Thank you. I don't even know what's happening. We're doing so

01:39:05.100 good. So we set a timer. The timer beeps at the end of a round. I've shown leniency

01:39:11.960 that we can get you an answer beyond that time and then we continue. I can

01:39:18.660 asked to see if that timer needs to be louder but it's been working so far so i feel like

01:39:23.700 we're in a good spot mr turnbull the floor is yours thank you madam chair and thanks to

01:39:30.900 miss telford for being here today we've had lots of good testimony at uh at our committee

01:39:36.740 uh including yours today miss telford but um one in particular that i would like to quote was the

01:39:43.060 CSIS director David Vignon who stated and I quote what I can say and what we have said publicly

01:39:51.860 many times over the last number of years is that actors who are engaged in foreign interference

01:39:57.780 against Canadians do so at all levels of government at the federal provincial and municipal levels

01:40:05.540 and they are doing it across party lines end quote you made a similar comment I believe in your

01:40:11.700 opening remarks um that foreign interference really affects all levels of government and all

01:40:16.900 political parties unfortunately i think in our proceedings and throughout many months now we've

01:40:23.700 seen a highly politicized environment which is unfortunate and we've seen some members of this

01:40:30.180 committee indeed try to use this issue to score cheap political points really at the expense of

01:40:36.100 our democracy i feel uh so miss telfer do you think that canadians are really well served by

01:40:41.700 those trying to make this into a partisan issue no i don't um and i think there's a lot of um

01:40:50.980 and and i've i've seen this obviously at times but uh not as as much as i think we would all like

01:40:58.020 um is to bring this into a non-partisan arena um or even a multi-partisan arena right i mean

01:41:04.500 that's the interesting thing in terms of some of the mechanisms that are in place that this

01:41:08.500 government created because there was nothing before this government um certainly nothing

01:41:13.700 anywhere close to the things that this government has put into place is that one of the mechanisms

01:41:18.580 in a psycop is multi-partisan so i i almost think of it as non-partisan because the work that comes

01:41:24.740 out of it and the way in which they operate it feels that way uh in contrast to sometimes what

01:41:30.500 we see in other places um but it is actually a multi-partisan place that is all parliamentarians

01:41:37.620 with full access they are cleared and get full access um on the subjects that they are studying

01:41:44.900 meanwhile there's a whole number of other organizations as i've already gone through

01:41:49.060 and then as i said there's a number of other things if you were to talk to the minister of

01:41:52.420 heritage if you were to talk to um minister leblah like there's a number of other ministers

01:41:59.060 much of government has to consider the possibilities of foreign interference these

01:42:03.700 days and so that's why there's a whole of government approach on this as well but as you

01:42:08.100 said it's beyond government it's it's far beyond government and so there have been organizations

01:42:12.900 set up coordination bodies set up between provincial and federal bodies there have been

01:42:18.500 new kind of communication channels set up between you know security services and financial sectors

01:42:25.780 and businesses and all kinds of things that have been going on the last number of years that would

01:42:29.860 be really worthwhile everybody who hasn't already learning even more about because i think these are

01:42:34.980 things that could give comfort to canadians to know that all these steps have been being taken

01:42:39.780 and that it is being taken this seriously not just by this government but by the whole country

01:42:44.900 because holding our institutions strong and being comfortable that our democracy

01:42:49.860 is working there's nothing more important than that i don't think for canadians

01:42:52.900 I concur uh wholeheartedly with that uh statement and that very strong sentiment that you've just

01:43:01.300 sent um one of the things that struck me in our proceedings over time and time again as

01:43:06.580 as slightly unjust is is the constant accusations that we've heard that our government

01:43:13.380 or that this government hasn't taken action to combat foreign interference but the facts really

01:43:19.300 simply do not back that up as you mentioned in your opening remarks David Morrison said before

01:43:25.220 this committee that the tools to address foreign interference are increasing NSI COP and CIRA and

01:43:32.100 the panel did not exist before this government took office we we set up the critical election

01:43:37.780 incident public protocol which is the panel or the panel as part of we took lead on setting up

01:43:44.020 the g7 country with the g7 countries the rapid response mechanism uh the protocol the panel the

01:43:50.980 the rrm uh we're all part of our four pillar a plan to protect canadian democracy and we've

01:43:58.100 continued in my view based on all the evidence that's out there to adapt and evolve our response

01:44:04.500 the protocol was independently reviewed after both of the last two elections and updates updates

01:44:11.780 were made to really strengthen it these are just a few examples you've cited some of them and i

01:44:17.300 think we could all list many others and there's always more to do i think we've acknowledged that

01:44:22.740 you've acknowledged that in your remarks but would you agree that this government has taken

01:44:27.380 strong action on this that we take it seriously and in fact we've taken more action really than

01:44:33.460 ever any previous government yes i believe that to be factually correct as well as this government

01:44:41.380 has also committed to taking even more actions and very soon and are in the midst of doing that

01:44:48.340 great and we've heard no sorry mr turnbull i know you couldn't hear it possibly but you

01:44:54.020 wrapped up right as it happened and miss telford has provided you an answer so thank you for that

01:45:00.900 and now we will enter into our fourth round

01:45:03.620 we're going to start with Mr. Cooper followed by Mr. Zuberi, Madame Normandin, Mrs. Blaney and

01:45:18.080 then I'll give you two more names and that will bring us to an end. Mr. Cooper. Thank you very

01:45:23.480 much Madam Chair. Ms. Telford for you Madam Chair. Ten weeks before the 2021 election Bob Soroya the

01:45:32.960 then-member of parliament for Markham, Unionville, received a cryptic and threatening text message

01:45:39.220 from Beijing's consul general in Toronto suggesting that he would no longer be a member of parliament

01:45:47.120 after the 2021 election. Were you, the prime minister, or anyone in the PMO briefed or

01:45:55.520 otherwise have knowledge about that text message um madam speaker i i'm chair um i uh i can't speak

01:46:10.560 to uh to this information um and uh i yeah i can't i can't speak to that information speak to the

01:46:19.140 information because you don't know why can't you speak to this information no and because as i said

01:46:24.440 before as frustrating as it is for both of all of us um is uh i can't get into confirming let

01:46:31.400 alone denying uh information and going beyond the bounds of the security heads who were here before

01:46:36.700 me well i find that very very interesting that you will not confirm whether you have knowledge

01:46:43.900 of that text message do you have alaska an even broader question do you have any knowledge

01:46:49.840 of interference by Beijing in the 2021 election in the riding of American Unionville?

01:47:00.380 I can't speak to specific pieces of information. As you know, I was not the cleared representative

01:47:06.620 during the campaign. Sorry, as through the chair, the member knows I was not the cleared

01:47:12.740 representative during the campaign. But in terms of what I have been briefed on subsequent to the

01:47:17.020 campaign um and you will have seen a lot of this come out of the review of the of the panel's work

01:47:24.700 during the 2021 campaign so broadly speaking yes i have been briefed on attempted interference and

01:47:30.640 influence during the last elections and that occurred in the writing of markham union bill

01:47:35.280 yes or no i can't speak to that madam chair in terms of the specifics another convenient

01:47:39.500 and non-answer. Ms. Helford, through you, Madam Chair, when I asked you in my previous

01:47:47.540 round about when the Prime Minister first learned about Beijing's interference in the

01:47:53.540 2019 election, you didn't answer it. You said it's part of an ongoing conversation. You

01:47:59.820 conveniently refuse to even acknowledge your knowledge or familiarity with one of the very

01:48:06.080 few documents that has been produced by the prime minister's own department the pco dated february

01:48:12.880 21st 2020 that speaks that spoke about a subtle but effective interference network in the 2019

01:48:22.240 election so in the interest of transparency canadians deserve to know when did those

01:48:28.240 conversations begin? So in the same efforts, Madam Chair of Transparency, conversations about

01:48:37.640 potential election interference attempts began long before the 2019 campaign. That's why steps

01:48:45.040 were taken actually to protect the 2019 and then more steps were taken in order to protect the 2021

01:48:50.640 campaign. And I think it's really important that it be said in this committee because it should be

01:48:54.600 said as many times as possible, that experts, very senior trusted public servants have come

01:49:00.480 out saying that those elections were fair. Madam Chair, no one is disputing that the overall

01:49:08.720 outcome of the election in 2019 and 2021 were not affected by Beijing's interference. But

01:49:14.580 if even one riding was impacted, that is a problem. You acknowledge that there was interference by

01:49:22.120 Beijing in the 2019 and 2021 election. I hope you at least acknowledge that much, Ms. Telford.

01:49:26.820 Madam Chair, I assume when the member talks about Beijing all the time, he's speaking about China

01:49:31.680 foreign interference. And yes, I have acknowledged that right in the opening statement that there was

01:49:36.460 foreign interference by a number of states, and that's written into the reports as well.

01:49:40.740 Very good, Madam Chair. Then Ms. Telford, through you, Madam Chair, the advice of CSIS to the Prime

01:49:47.960 Minister, is that the policy of a government in response to foreign interference should be grounded

01:49:54.580 in sunlight and transparency, and that such interference be made known to the public. That

01:50:01.040 was provided in a briefing to him on January 21st, 2021, another one of the few documents produced

01:50:07.960 to this committee. Why is it that in the face of your acknowledgement of Beijing's election

01:50:13.920 interference, and the advice that CSIS provided to make such foreign interference known,

01:50:21.480 the Prime Minister instead kept Canadians in the dark.

01:50:26.480 Madam Chair, I will be quick on that and just say, you know, it's rare for the member and I to agree

01:50:31.840 on anything, but what we can agree on is the importance for transparency and sunlight and

01:50:37.400 growing confidence for Canadians in our institutions, and it's for that reason that our

01:50:42.520 government took steps to protect the elections that had never been taken before.

01:50:48.880 Thank you, Ms. Telford. Mr. Zubiri.

01:50:56.240 Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Ms. Telford, for joining us today.

01:51:01.880 ...or actually quotes from testimony that actually was given at this committee before

01:51:06.120 by Mr. David Morrison, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. He spoke about the limitations

01:51:12.300 and caveats around intelligence he said to this committee let me simply say that intelligence

01:51:18.220 really paints a full or concrete picture or actionable picture i should say intelligence

01:51:25.100 almost always comes with a heavy caveat and is qualified in a way designed to caution consumers

01:51:31.820 such as myself he's referring to himself the deputy minister from jumping to conclusions

01:51:36.940 while at the same time helping us at least to gain a little more awareness he continues now

01:51:43.100 i for one am very glad we live in a country where even information of unknown reliability

01:51:49.340 is passed up the chain because that allows people like myself again the dm daily consumers of

01:51:54.940 intelligence to begin to form a picture of what might be going on and the steps that might be

01:52:00.220 needed to take to be taken if information turned out to be accurate or part of a larger pattern

01:52:07.100 he continues but let me say it is extremely rare to come across intel an intel report

01:52:14.860 that is concrete enough to constitute a smoking gun intelligence is just is much more

01:52:21.580 a game of disparate pieces of information many of which don't seem to fit together at least initially

01:52:28.060 he continues in this context i would like to make a final point intel that gets leaked is is taken

01:52:36.540 out of context for example a report from a single corroborated source if that report instantly

01:52:43.420 becomes taken as fact this can be prejudicial to canada's national security there is nothing our

01:52:49.580 adversaries would like more than to divide canadians and to call into question our very

01:52:54.380 institutions that keep canada safe i know you spoke about this in your opening statement would

01:52:59.660 you like to elaborate a bit further on uh the dm's comments uh in relation to this and his

01:53:05.340 previous testimony i just you know and it's something um that might be worth so thank you

01:53:12.780 for that because i think it's worth pausing on a little bit more something i said in my

01:53:17.100 in my opening which is sometimes the intelligence is is wrong the the the

01:53:27.260 in whatever form you're looking at it there is something that you are whether it's because you

01:53:31.820 talk it through with others you're looking at it in a different context you're comparing it to other

01:53:35.740 things because of your own knowledge because of somebody else's knowledge in the room you know

01:53:40.620 it to be wrong and yet you still look at it because it paints a a broader picture you still

01:53:46.140 leave it in there because it's useful to even know that there's that information that's being

01:53:51.980 spread out there or that's being stated somewhere for some reason and if that is taken completely

01:53:57.420 out of context then no one has the opportunity to put it into that wider context to know what

01:54:03.020 is true and what isn't true also some of it you need to take time with to be able to figure out

01:54:08.220 its veracity and um and that is why we have people who specialize in analyzing this information who

01:54:14.860 get to know the the whether it's from a region or a community whether it's domestic or foreign but

01:54:21.340 where they're looking at it and able to um become expert in it over time or come into the job being

01:54:27.660 expert and give us that best advice that unfortunately Canadians aren't able to get

01:54:31.340 in the way that some of this has been coming out of late but that I'm really hoping that through

01:54:35.180 the good work of NSICOP and NSERA and potentially other things that the special rapporteur will give

01:54:40.860 us advice about that canadians will be able to get a better sense of the picture thank you and

01:54:47.100 another question like to touch upon is last month the minister of public safety launched a

01:54:52.940 consultation on to about uh having a foreign registry foreign influence registry i should say

01:54:58.780 and this is a critical step that we should be taking this consultation and and potential action

01:55:05.900 on that. We know that diaspora communities are particular, they face the challenges of

01:55:16.540 foreign interference. Diaspora communities are impacted by this. The CSIS director, David,

01:55:24.860 the CSIS director came before the committee and said that CSIS has been clear that the

01:55:31.820 the principal threat to Canada comes from the People's Republic of China. But to be

01:55:36.300 clear, he continued, the threat does not come from the Chinese people, but rather from the

01:55:42.200 Chinese Communist Party and the government of China. Indeed, we are keenly aware that

01:55:47.420 Chinese communities are often the primary victims of the PRC's foreign interference

01:55:52.000 efforts in Canada. This distinction that he's making between the government and the Chinese

01:55:56.800 people is critical would you like to elaborate on that no i'm really glad you um you raised that

01:56:03.760 and it's something you know i mentioned it very very briefly in my opening statement about the

01:56:08.400 impact on on communities because this isn't something that is only an election uh focused

01:56:14.320 issue uh foreign interference is much broader than that um and has been going on for some time in in

01:56:20.080 all different parts of our communities but particularly diaspora communities

01:56:23.360 and we need to pay extra care that when we are or take extra care that when we are creating any of

01:56:30.700 these mechanisms that they are taking that into account on how to protect specifically our diaspora

01:56:35.620 communities and whatever steps are being taken. Thank you. Ms. Telford I'm sure you're maybe not

01:56:46.740 noticing that we're approaching the two o'clock hour and just because there is just a few more

01:56:52.000 questions that need to be posed we would like to complete this round and then we will do just a

01:56:57.120 quick one off to each of the parties and then we will end shortly by 2 30. um so if we can just um

01:57:03.600 i'm sorry to impose upon you but i do appreciate your leniency i know it's awkward for you to say

01:57:08.880 otherwise right now but i'm going to proceed as chair and just thank you in advance uh for your

01:57:14.640 latitude madame normandy miss normanda thank you madam chair just a question comment miss telford

01:57:30.160 there's been a lot of references to the uh nsi cop about for managing the issue of foreign

01:57:38.880 interference but he said it was very difficult to obtain cabinet documents to do his work properly

01:57:46.520 and we know that they must counsel Mr. Johnson in the decision to recommend or not a public

01:57:53.420 independent investigation. There is a context where there is funding at Canadian universities

01:57:58.840 by foreign interests. There is increasing information that the Trudeau Foundation had

01:58:05.260 regular ties to the PMO. There is more information about foreign interference in at least 11 ridings.

01:58:16.800 Doesn't it become at some point too vast to be managed internally and it needs a public

01:58:23.460 independent inquiry like Mr. Butts recommended?

01:58:27.100 um sorry there was a lot in there madam chair um and uh so on the provision of information to uh

01:58:39.820 you know in a psychop special rapporteur i know that the prime minister has committed to providing

01:58:45.580 and giving access to as much as as possible he provided unprecedented amounts of information

01:58:52.460 um and and access to information during the poet committee uh or inquiry rather in the fall and so

01:59:00.060 if there are concerns on that front i'm happy to take those back um in terms of ties to pmo and

01:59:07.340 things there's a lot of kind of assertion and innuendo there madam chair that i'd be happy to

01:59:11.660 answer questions on if there are questions on that um because there is um there's not a lot there um

01:59:18.220 and just in terms of the broad question of is it too vast well it's exactly for that reason

01:59:24.300 that there are a number of different organizations looking at things that the prime minister

01:59:29.100 did the additional step of putting in place an independent special rapporteur to exactly

01:59:34.220 identify what might be getting missed in all of this and what more needed to be done to ensure

01:59:39.100 we are getting as much of the best work done possible into all these different parts but also

01:59:45.260 that we're effectively answering Canadians' questions, most importantly, perhaps.

01:59:50.700 And on the role of Mr. Johnson, there is increasing information

01:59:54.260 that there were ties between the Foundation and Mr. Trudeau

02:00:03.880 and that Mr. Johnson was aware of the donation

02:00:09.660 and that he may rule that there is no need for a public inquiry

02:00:14.080 without uh does it are you not limiting his ability to make good decisions about holding

02:00:24.360 an inquiry or not so um i i'm glad you asked that because i think it's it's really important

02:00:31.660 um to make clear and i know it's been said in other public forum but to make clear here given

02:00:37.280 the given the subject matter here the prime minister has had no contact no um like no he's

02:00:45.120 had no relationship with this organization for over a decade so uh when when we insinuate that

02:00:52.960 there are some other ties there they're just there aren't the the tie is in the name merci thank you

02:01:00.080 you well thank you so much um madam chair and everything as always is through the chair so i

02:01:12.800 appreciate that and and i just uh want to say to miss telford we had a little bit of discussion

02:01:19.120 earlier on about a previous inquiry and i've done a little bit of research on it and um

02:01:26.160 um it I just want to quote from a Toronto Star um article that it says Harper last month asked

02:01:35.820 academic and lawyer David Johnson to craft the terms of reference for the inquiry and that

02:01:41.100 Harper says he'll take whatever advice Johnson gives so just clarifying that a little bit

02:01:47.400 um and happy to share that with you if that helps you understand the point of view that I'm coming

02:01:52.260 but i do want to go back to this issue of having a public inquiry having a transparent process

02:01:59.060 that canadians can have faith in and i'm just curious you know there was some questions earlier

02:02:05.780 about what we're seeing across this country which is an increase of anti-asian hate and that's very

02:02:12.820 concerning because it puts people who are in this country many chinese people in this country who

02:02:19.140 have been fighting for an extremely long time to get acknowledgement from this government about

02:02:25.220 interference from china into this country so people who were willing to take that step to

02:02:32.100 draw attention to that issue so if the rapporteur comes forward and recommends a public inquiry i'm

02:02:39.700 just wondering if the pmo if the prime minister if miss telford would admit that it was wrong

02:02:46.740 to allow these issues to fester in the public mind for such a long period of time that it's created

02:02:54.260 a distress that is just not necessary and that the longer we ask canadians to wait we are actually

02:03:01.780 harming other populations by not seeing that action so i'm just wondering if that would be

02:03:07.380 the case and there would be a willingness to say you're right we should have just done this in the

02:03:12.180 first place um i feel like we're gonna have to take the discussion on what happened in the past

02:03:19.300 offline because i totally know the article you're talking about and i can point you to another one

02:03:23.380 um but i think we're actually dancing on the head of a pin there so in terms of your the actual

02:03:27.460 substance of uh the rest of your question um i i believe and i suspect we will uh we will agree

02:03:35.780 to disagree on this madam chair i believe what what is a bigger problem in terms of things

02:03:43.780 festering at the moment is the partisanship and hyperbole that has been brought to this so often

02:03:48.660 uh in the discussion in the last while and uh it's why we needed to get the hand

02:03:54.580 out of the hands and in into hands like the agencies and and committee of parliamentarians

02:04:00.100 that do seem to be able to work in a way that doesn't do that and it's why the special rapporteur

02:04:04.020 was necessary because somebody had to be able to put their mind to it um that was out of this space

02:04:11.460 to figure out what those other appropriate next steps might be thank you

02:04:18.820 we're going to go four minutes to mr brock followed by four minutes to mrs sahoda mr brock

02:04:25.060 thank you madam chair miss telford earlier today my colleague mr berthold asked you

02:04:32.660 about the global mail story of february 1723 regarding beijing's objectives in the 21 election

02:04:41.220 the prime minister is on record of saying that the report was full of inaccuracies without denying

02:04:45.860 the existence of the report and not identifying what in the report was inaccurate my colleague

02:04:51.540 asked you that question in your opinion what was inaccurate about that report you couldn't confirm

02:04:58.100 my belief is if the report was full of inaccuracies you would identify those inaccuracies or if the

02:05:04.660 report was completely false you would say so so i'm giving you the opportunity now is the report

02:05:11.620 truthful or not so madam chair maybe i'll i'll just give a crack at explaining why it is that

02:05:19.860 whether or not it's inaccurate i can't answer because if i started to answer

02:05:24.180 the things that were either missing or inaccurate in in some of the specific questions that you're

02:05:30.160 getting into it is as much as confirming than some of the other things that you might be raising

02:05:34.440 thank you i believe the most damning fact in that report is that beijing's objectives in the 21

02:05:42.400 election were to help the liberals secure a minority government and to defeat certain

02:05:48.460 conservative candidates. Do you accept that? Do you believe that to be the case? Madam Chair,

02:05:54.040 my experience going into both of the last two elections was that our relations with China were

02:05:59.520 at their lowest point where I was working day and night alongside many, many, many other incredible

02:06:05.800 Canadians to try to bring home the two Michaels who it was just amazing to see in Parliament

02:06:11.260 when President Biden was here recently.

02:06:13.660 Thank you, Ms. Delford.

02:06:14.460 CSIS tracked specifically the surrounding circumstances

02:06:20.040 involving the former council general in Vancouver,

02:06:23.800 her name being Tong Xilin,

02:06:26.760 who held the post during the 21 election.

02:06:29.880 In fact, CSIS reported that she was doing victory laps

02:06:33.340 bragging about how her role

02:06:36.720 was to defeat certain conservative candidates.

02:06:39.760 You are aware of that.

02:06:40.960 is that inaccurate um madam chair i'm aware of the reporting on this matter and i can't speak

02:06:48.740 to what different countries ambassadors and consul generals uh have said the prime minister

02:06:53.720 was aware of this information the prime minister is also who are aware of it the prime minister

02:06:58.360 is aware of it correct pausing pausing you know friends colleagues

02:07:04.240 this just takes away from our time that's all we lose we all lose time no one here is new

02:07:14.320 one person's going to speak at a time it was not a courtroom at the beginning of this meeting

02:07:20.880 it still has not become one it is the procedure and house affairs committee which i know has

02:07:26.460 really high ratings i'm sure there's many people watching and they want to see the important work

02:07:31.040 that we do here in the House of Commons.

02:07:35.520 Mr. Brock.

02:07:36.840 The victory lap that she was bragging about, is that false? 0.99

02:07:43.380 Madam Chair. 0.96

02:07:44.480 Yes or no, is it false?

02:07:45.860 I can only speak to the fact that I'm aware of this through.

02:07:48.620 I'm going to, Mr. Brock, it's very simple.

02:07:51.940 We have someone coming to appear today to provide us information.

02:07:56.560 What may be simple to you might not be simple to somebody else.

02:08:00.760 i don't know i've never been a chief of staff to the prime minister i'm not sure if you have so i'm

02:08:06.120 going to ask mr brock yes that we permit miss telford to answer and when she gives a quick

02:08:11.400 answer and miss telford i have to commend you your answers have been quite short compared to

02:08:15.640 most witnesses and i appreciate that so i'm going to give the floor to miss telford and it'll be

02:08:19.800 returned to you mr brock if i have to come just for clarification madam chair the question was

02:08:24.600 premised with a yes or a no i didn't get a yes or no and that's why i refer to it as a simple

02:08:31.320 question so within the house of commons mr brock as you know if there is unwritten rules and

02:08:37.000 oftentimes the amount of time that is consumed for the question or comment is provided to the person

02:08:42.440 to answer and i think it's only fair that the witness be able to answer so i recognize what

02:08:50.680 the premise was if you look at my premise it's been let's have a functional meeting and one

02:08:55.800 person speak at a time i've been doing this for many meetings i've not yet achieved that

02:09:00.280 and i will keep trying so right now mr brock you will have one minute left first starting with mr

02:09:05.720 miss telford cesus reported a month after the 21 election it was well known within the chinese

02:09:12.040 canadian community of british columbia that miss tong wanted the liberal party to win the 21 election

02:09:18.200 is that false i i think madam chair you'll know my answer on this which is that i can't speak to

02:09:25.400 uh thank you specific cesis reports reveal that miss tong and former council of wang jin made

02:09:31.080 discreet and subtle efforts to encourage members of chinese canadian organizations to rally votes

02:09:37.000 for the liberals and defeat conservatives is that false madam chair i think what i would just remind

02:09:42.600 the members is something i said in the opening and that's come up uh throughout this committee

02:09:46.920 actually which is that interference in elections has an impact on all political parties in november

02:09:53.400 21 cesus reported that miss tong described former mp kenny chu as a vocal distractor when discussing

02:10:00.360 his defeat in the 21 election she also is reported to have said that mr chu's loss proved that their

02:10:07.000 strategy and tactics were good and contributed to achieving their goals is that false is that

02:10:13.480 inaccurate madam chair i uh i'm gonna have to give a similar answer um but i would say that

02:10:21.480 let's it's it's important to remind people because of the insinuations i think coming through from

02:10:25.800 the member that the election has been examined by experts and they have deemed it as one that was

02:10:33.480 free and fair this is a huda thank you madam chair that was a very confusing line of questioning i

02:10:48.680 don't think there was a yes or no answer to be given when you're asking for someone else's state

02:10:53.240 of mind or someone else's belief from another witness that's present here today kind of like

02:11:00.040 the hyper partisan and political attacks we've been seeing from many members today about why

02:11:05.080 the pm is keeping people in the dark um why we don't want sunlight and transparency i believe

02:11:12.920 through you madam chair to the witness there um have been many points where miss telford has

02:11:19.480 that falls in place it is their job uh to if something rises to the level uh past a certain

02:11:30.120 threshold and we've had you know mr ian shugart even say in a cbc news interview as well uh that

02:11:35.960 they were prepared to do so they would have brought things to the public's attention had anything even

02:11:41.160 in one riding risen to that level uh let alone anything had been national so i'm wondering if

02:11:47.880 I could get some more comments from you um from Ms. Telford regarding um what her or the PM have

02:11:57.160 within their responsibility to do based off uh impartial parts of uh information that you receive

02:12:04.920 versus what um agencies like the RCMP um have in their ability to do if CSIS was to present

02:12:13.080 information to them um what the protocol unit could do um who is responsible for shed putting

02:12:20.920 more sunlight or transparency into foreign interference that's happening uh in our

02:12:27.000 electoral process which has been happening for for some time i think one of the challenges uh

02:12:35.320 that even comes out in your in your question when you name a number of the different places

02:12:39.960 is that there is no um one person you know even if uh as as one of the members i know at least one

02:12:46.920 of the members i know um is uh would have liked an inquiry already and you know one of the challenges

02:12:54.520 is into which part exactly um what does it look like exactly like where whereas with whereas with

02:13:02.200 poec there was something built into the legislation where there was a clearly mandated time framed

02:13:09.480 um clear question that had to be answered in this case this is something so diffuse and across so

02:13:15.800 many different parts of government um let alone other levels of government uh it involves law

02:13:21.960 enforcement which obviously works very independently and separately from from certainly from the

02:13:29.480 political side but but also from from all other parts of government oftentimes even if even if

02:13:34.040 if they coordinate with other parts um the security agencies are obviously incredibly

02:13:39.320 incredibly sensitive organizations so how all of that can come together and be better reported on

02:13:44.920 i think is is an is an excellent question and one you know that i think nsicop has has made great

02:13:51.000 strides at trying to find different ways whether it's training to members of parliament or um and

02:13:56.680 and better communications and ongoing communications with members of parliament

02:14:00.680 um or whether it's a whole series of other things that are in clerk charrette and um and and minister

02:14:05.880 leblanc's uh um report that they just put out of a whole bunch of other next steps that can be taken

02:14:11.480 um but there's so many different things and i think we're seeing that through all the reporting

02:14:14.840 there are so many different things that there is not just one one answer here to be given because

02:14:20.360 this is an ongoing body of work that is totally multi multi-disciplinary almost doesn't even uh

02:14:27.960 doesn't even quite cover it thank you miss telford um and i know it's not convenient

02:14:34.840 as some members point out for you to even be here today and to be fine walking this fine line

02:14:42.360 um which you have to do and it's quite the balance it's very convenient for the leader of the of the

02:14:48.840 conservatives not to take briefings so that he can say whatever he would like to say so i just want

02:14:58.440 more light uh as much as you could uh in this forum thank you

02:15:04.920 thank you we will do a quick last round um not exactly as planned but i understand it's going

02:15:13.400 to be mrs thomas sharing time with mr bertold for four minutes miss o'connell four minutes

02:15:18.920 madame gudrow and mrs blaney two and a half minutes each mrs thomas through the chair

02:15:25.000 uh through you chair um i believe what we heard today then from miss telford and the testimony

02:15:33.960 that she provided uh was the following uh today she was asked a series of very simple questions

02:15:40.440 they were questions that did not require top security clearance uh and yet um we were fail

02:15:47.800 there was a failure to give proper answers um we asked questions with regards to the prime

02:15:53.000 minister's knowledge we asked questions about the briefings that he received we asked questions with

02:15:58.520 regard to whether or not he was informed concerning beijing's interference in our elections

02:16:05.400 ms telford refused to provide simple answers to these very simple questions

02:16:23.000 or altogether shot down.

02:16:27.160 Now, what's quite convenient is that Ms. Telford cannot confirm the existence of documents that can

02:16:34.140 documents that reveal Beijing's interference in our elections,

02:16:44.280 Beijing's motivation to elect Liberals to the House of Commons

02:16:48.020 by providing paid staff members to these campaigns,

02:16:51.900 as well as funneling hidden, secret, and illegal money to them.

02:16:57.420 Ms. Telford was not able to discuss these documents conveniently.

02:17:03.320 What's interesting, however, is that Ms. Telford had no problem whatsoever denying the existence of some documents.

02:17:11.800 But when it came to this document, the document that shows Beijing's interference in order to elect liberals,

02:17:18.340 Ms. Telford did not deny the existence of that one.

02:17:20.520 So I'll allow her silence to speak for itself. However, Ms. Telford also told us that the

02:17:29.060 Prime Minister is briefed regularly. Ms. Telford also told us that she is the Prime Minister's

02:17:38.460 right-hand individual, constantly with him, that, and I'll quote directly, the Prime Minister

02:17:45.380 reads everything, and quote, there is nothing that is ever kept from the Prime Minister, end quote.

02:17:52.400 So given the fact that the Prime Minister reads everything, and that nothing is ever kept from

02:17:59.240 him, the committee must then assume that the Prime Minister was aware, and that the Prime

02:18:08.960 Minister chose to actively ignore and avoid the information, the briefings, and the warnings that

02:18:17.420 were given to him by our top security and intelligence agency in this country when it

02:18:23.160 comes to Beijing's interference. And one must conclude that the only reason to turn a blind eye

02:18:28.680 to such information is certainly not in the best interest of the Canadian electorate, and so

02:18:33.420 therefore only in the best interest of the Liberal Party of Canada, which of course benefited from

02:18:38.420 this interference both by getting money and paid staff in order to secure their

02:18:43.640 writings. I'll leave it there. Madam Chair, it's interesting that I was accused of silence then

02:18:58.860 told I wasn't asked a question when I was trying to answer and further was then being quoted in the

02:19:04.380 statement that was just made so apparently i did say something and madam chair i would just say

02:19:10.380 that what was being alleged or at least a part of what was being alleged there

02:19:14.380 were infractions of elections canada law and there are mechanisms for those things to be

02:19:18.780 investigated and so i would just suggest that you be speaking to the appropriate agencies about what

02:19:25.340 if anything should be happening on those fronts if those things are the case and i think the member

02:19:30.700 probably could have written this madam chair beforehand and that was one of the reasons

02:19:34.940 that i was concerned about and i think many were concerned about whether or not it was

02:19:39.740 the appropriate thing for me to be coming to this committee thank you and i will just note that the

02:19:46.140 comment that was made by the member took um over three minutes and you were able to respond in less

02:19:52.700 than a minute so the time to the member was way greater than for yourself to respond

02:19:57.980 Ms. O'Connell, four minutes to you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Helford, thank you for being

02:20:02.940 here again today. I think what we just witnessed was exactly what Canadians don't want out of this

02:20:10.460 process, which is the Conservatives were not getting the allegations, the clips that they

02:20:19.580 wanted throughout the day so they resorted to just making a statement after weeks of asking

02:20:27.020 for you to appear decided to use their last minutes to try and not actually ask you any

02:20:33.180 questions and just summarize a series of conspiracy theories frankly that have testimony here today

02:20:42.620 does not corroborate so in the last moments that i have left here i'd like to ask you about

02:20:51.420 the process miss harder talked about uh how you could have conveniently or you conveniently gave

02:20:58.540 non-answers even though you could have as i would presume miss harder but i won't make any assumptions

02:21:06.380 doesn't um have the process that goes into actually classifying documents or determining

02:21:14.460 classifications on documents and information so perhaps you could allude to or speak to

02:21:20.780 that process of why you can or cannot speak to a matter of national security and who actually

02:21:27.740 makes that determination because it's certainly not just the conservative members who feel that

02:21:32.220 they didn't get the responses they were hoping for um so one of the reasons i said in my opening

02:21:38.860 statement i would respect the bounds that the cses director and then the nsia um put in place

02:21:47.660 or had around themselves when they uh when they came to committee in a public setting um is because

02:21:53.180 they are in a far better position to be able to make those determinations uh than i am and um

02:22:00.940 because the classification of material happens within within their purview within their departments

02:22:07.020 obviously it's different if it's material coming out of csc for example um and there are a number

02:22:12.700 of different places within government but the ultimate advisor on this kind of information

02:22:16.780 to the pm and who does report directly to him is the national security and intelligence advisor

02:22:21.900 and all of us who get cleared as i mentioned briefly earlier all of us who get cleared

02:22:26.460 have to sign documentation uh where we make a number of undertakings um and but written right

02:22:34.220 into those undertakings is not only the consequences of um from a from a legal standpoint of

02:22:40.940 uh revealing some of this information but also the potential consequences of it as i mentioned

02:22:45.420 in my opening statement as well and um and they can be very severe for the country and it's why

02:22:50.620 we should all really respect them thank you and as someone who used to sit on ensacop i went through

02:22:55.260 that similar process and understand that but part of that is also remembering what is classified

02:23:01.980 and not classified and you have to be extremely careful and why the national security community

02:23:08.940 determines an entire process in terms of when speaking in the public forum and is this precisely

02:23:16.540 why the critical election incident public protocol is in place to have the knowledge of the national

02:23:24.220 security community who can take the full picture of intelligence and then provide it to a the

02:23:32.860 incident public protocol that are non-partisan and then they can properly make a determination

02:23:39.820 on what constitutes the threshold to speak to Canadians during an election knowing that

02:23:46.860 they don't want to tip the scales in any fashion or even allude to that but having a non-partisan

02:23:53.740 body with access to that full picture of intelligence why that's so important

02:23:59.740 during the election process I think all of that is exactly right and the only

02:24:06.640 thing I would just add is that the senior officials who are part of that

02:24:10.400 panel have spent their lives in most cases serving Canadians as public

02:24:15.040 servants and so I think there's reason for all of us to have a lot of faith in

02:24:20.260 work that they do. Thank you. Madame Goudreau? Madame Goudreau. Thank you, Madam Chair.

02:24:29.620 Two and a half minutes is not much time. Thanks again to our witness, Ms. Telford. Two questions.

02:24:37.860 The first, given everything, all the information we've received today,

02:24:44.100 efforts to avoid interference in the measures that have been established for a few years now

02:24:51.660 since 2015 efforts have been made we agree but what can we say to Canadians

02:24:57.760 we're here today where clearly defending democracy is not working what are you telling people at

02:25:08.680 home because obviously there are alerts and unfortunately there is still

02:25:16.280 interference. We can't deny it. Madam chair I would disagree a little bit with

02:25:26.940 just the the thought that it's not working because actually I think I think

02:25:33.800 the fact that we're all having these conversations speaks to the fact that

02:25:38.220 this is in the public domain and in perhaps a new and different way it doesn't mean that the

02:25:42.140 institutions themselves have not been working and i think there's questions to be asked and

02:25:46.700 i think those questions are being asked in a number of of the bodies that we're talking about

02:25:50.940 by the appropriate ones there's ones that do oversight of the security agencies themselves

02:25:54.940 there's the the nsi cop multi multi-partisan parliamentarian group um that's able to look

02:26:01.340 at other parts you know there's a lot of different pieces to this and i i appreciate it's complex but

02:26:05.820 But it's complex for a reason, and that's because this is a moment in the world,

02:26:09.920 and that's where I think we have to take that step back from saying we have some specific challenge here that is unique to Canada

02:26:17.020 and where Canada has to just, you know, snap its fingers and solve this problem overnight.

02:26:24.200 I don't think this is something that gets solved overnight.

02:26:27.100 I think this is something that's been being worked on for years, and I think it's something that our allies are dealing with too.

02:26:31.940 it's why it was so predominant as a discussion point at the g7 hosted here in in quebec

02:26:39.300 thank you madam chair given all of that given that we're constantly adapting

02:26:46.340 to our environment how is it that between 2019 and 2021 how is it that canadians were not made

02:26:53.860 aware of the fact that it existed and that it will exist why was it hidden

02:26:59.300 and why has it been hidden for six months so I would offer two things quickly one is

02:27:07.640 um that there was the review of the panel's work that did speak to interference NSI COP

02:27:15.140 also continued between 2019 and 2021 I think um and what I'll just say quickly because I can tell

02:27:21.400 already I'm getting the look but is um I think there was a lot of other news between 2019 and

02:27:27.980 2021 and perhaps that's maybe why this wasn't some of those reports that were coming out on this

02:27:33.660 subject were not in the same kind of uh spotlight as they might have been if there hadn't been a

02:27:39.820 pandemic amongst many other things at the time but a lot of this work was ongoing between 2019

02:27:44.220 and 2021 and being reported publicly thank you mrs blaney

02:27:49.020 well thank you and through you chair i agree that this work needs to be taken out of the

02:27:58.140 partisan environment of parliament why did the pm not instruct mr johnston to set the terms of a

02:28:06.480 public than to decide whether or not to even have an inquiry is not is it not true that a public

02:28:13.520 best way to take this out of partisanship?

02:28:19.760 I think that's the first question.

02:28:23.540 I don't know that it is his first question,

02:28:27.100 but it probably is the first question he needs to answer,

02:28:29.340 certainly before, Madam Chair, the special rapporteur

02:28:32.400 is able to answer what a mandate should look like.

02:28:34.600 It's what should the mechanism look like?

02:28:36.980 What is the question we're trying to answer?

02:28:39.020 What are we trying to satisfy here?

02:28:40.460 What is the moment we're trying to meet with Canadians here

02:28:43.120 that can give them the satisfaction that we all want them to be able to have in their democratic

02:28:47.000 institutions? What's the best way to do that? First, we have to figure that out. Then you figure

02:28:52.000 out a mandate. And if those things can already be happening or already are happening through

02:28:57.160 other means, and the spotlight just hasn't been shone on them, maybe perhaps to my previous answer

02:29:01.520 to a different question, then maybe that's something we need to think about. So I think

02:29:06.480 there's a lot more to think about here than a binary choice about inquiry, no inquiry. And

02:29:12.300 that's hopefully what is now happening and actually i'm certain it is well if a public

02:29:18.460 inquiry had started three months ago i don't think we'd be sitting right here in this room today but

02:29:23.260 i'll leave that to you so my last question us presidents do have the ability to declassify

02:29:29.900 information as at will in a situation where the government has classified information to clear

02:29:37.100 the air that would help if it was declassified without necessarily disclosing sources and methods

02:29:45.820 that would concern national security does canada have a similar process

02:29:53.180 so i've heard the question i understand the interpreters are not able to hear the question

02:29:59.740 and that the internet connection might be unstable so i'm not sure if something else is running

02:30:04.700 on your computer did something change mrs blaney nothing changed okay um can the interpreters

02:30:15.260 confirm that you hear me now you hear my voice mrs blaney can you briefly summarize your question

02:30:23.900 again okay i'll try i'm i'm hardwired so i don't know what could have happened

02:30:31.020 residents do have the ability to declass information at will if there was a hypothetical situation

02:30:38.100 where the government has classified information that if it was a what would clear the air and it

02:30:45.240 would be helpful if it was declassified without sources and methods I'm just wondering if Canada

02:30:52.140 has a similar process okay um i uh it's a it's a very good question and one i have been asking many

02:31:05.580 questions about myself for the last while and it's not as straightforward an answer um as uh

02:31:13.100 unfortunately what you just described from south of the border um having said that i would encourage

02:31:17.900 you uh to speak to officials on that further i don't feel uh expert enough yet but i can tell

02:31:23.820 you i've been asking a lot of questions on this uh in the last little while thank you

02:31:31.260 so there is some connectivity issues taking place i would say actually in this room because there is

02:31:38.700 a delay on the screen even so i hear the comments being made in regards to the interpretation at the

02:31:45.660 end having an issue i empathize with that and we'll get to the bottom of it but seeing that we

02:31:53.580 have come to past 2 30 i am adjourning the meeting i am thanking miss telford for coming to appear

02:32:02.300 today and just for the purpose of members good news tuesday we will be doing bc redistribution

02:32:09.340 during our normal slot on tuesday evening we do have the 6 30 to 8 30 slot and it will be

02:32:17.180 mr michael wernick and mr daniel jean appearing for one hour each we've not confirmed the hour

02:32:24.460 that's why the the notice has not come out but it will be there with that i wish everyone a

02:32:30.220 great day miss telford thank you for your time and attention everyone keep well and safe thank you

Juno News - April 14, 2023

LIVE： Katie Telford testifies

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