Juno News - LIVE： Watch the Travis Dhanraj hearing

00:00:00.000 I would ask all in-person participants to please read the guidelines written on the

00:00:05.440 updated cards on your table, measures that are in place to help prevent feedback incidents

00:00:11.180 and protect the health and safety of all, including and especially our interpreters.

00:00:17.380 There is a QR code on that card that links to a short awareness video if you need more

00:00:22.880 information.

00:00:25.160 Pursuant to the routine motion adopted by this committee, I can confirm that all the

00:00:28.640 witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting. Please wait

00:00:34.800 until I recognize you by name before you speak and all comments should be through the chair.

00:00:42.000 Pursuant to Standing Order 1082 and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 22,

00:00:46.960 2025, this committee is meeting to study the state of the journalism and media sectors.

00:00:53.680 so quite a broad study and with us today we have travis danraj former journalist association

00:01:02.720 des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du quebec angela carrero executive director welcome

00:01:09.280 freshnet news janet clo and mario bartel with friends of canadian media we have raj shown

00:01:17.360 and Randy Kitt. Honest Reporting Canada, we have Mike Fegelman, Amanda Eskenasi, and Dr.

00:01:26.640 Horan Shani-Narkis, please forgive me if I've butchered your name, and Paul Deacon from News

00:01:33.040 Media Canada, good to see you again sir. So everyone or your organization will have five

00:01:39.040 minutes for an opening statement and then we'll open up the floor to members for questions.

00:01:46.080 we'll start with mr dan rush you have the floor now for five minutes sir

00:01:52.320 let's press this there we go appreciate it good morning uh madame chair and members of the

00:01:56.880 committee as a kid growing up in alberta i wasn't like most of my friends every night i watched the

00:02:03.680 national with nolton nash he represented a public broadcaster that belonged to canadians not to

00:02:11.040 power not to party, but to the public. And that is the CBC that I believed in. Now, many Canadians

00:02:18.440 know the story about one of my tweets. In April 2024, I publicly stated that Canada Tonight had

00:02:24.660 requested an interview with then-CBC President Catherine Tate, and the request was declined.

00:02:30.620 Facts. Shortly after, I was removed from the air. On May 7th, 2024, Tate told this very committee

00:02:39.020 she was, quote, not aware of any repercussions. Yet 24 hours earlier, ATIP records show her

00:02:46.680 vice president, Barb Williams, briefed her directly about my situation. And that matters

00:02:52.520 because trust matters. The tweet was not the beginning. It was the breaking point. For months

00:02:59.480 prior, tensions had been building, not over performance, but over control. While I was

00:03:04.520 publicly held up as a bold, diverse host, my ability to lead the very program carrying my

00:03:10.700 face and name was quietly being stripped away. CBC's stated commitment to diversity contrasted

00:03:17.620 with realities of tokenism. Still, I pushed forward, creating a nightly panel to showcase

00:03:24.160 real diversity, including of thought. I questioned unequal pay. Why, for example,

00:03:30.100 one contributor who was Indigenous always needed to be paid, while others weren't. When a prominent

00:03:36.040 Black journalist requested compensation after appearing doing the exact same job, I was told

00:03:41.140 to reconsider booking him moving forward. I attempted to end this discriminatory practice.

00:03:47.640 Instead, the panel was cancelled. When it came to politics, interviews were blocked under guardrails,

00:03:54.120 governed by an internal document never made public, titled Parameters for Political Guests,

00:03:59.340 Political access was centralized. Booking decisions controlled elsewhere.

00:04:04.580 It did not happen once. It became a pattern. It became the standard.

00:04:09.660 Power and Politics, hosted by David Cochran, was given gatekeeping authority over which politicians could appear on Canada tonight.

00:04:16.920 When I questioned that control and who was in control, I was viewed as disruptive.

00:04:23.120 Now, at the same time, I raised concerns about a toxic environment.

00:04:26.100 After I sat down with Speaker Greg Fergus for a conversation on Black History Month,

00:04:32.780 Chief Political Correspondent Rosemary Barton circulated internal communications questioning my program, 0.63

00:04:38.520 copying senior leadership, insinuating she or Mr. Cochran should have done the interview.

00:04:45.240 It was an intimidation tactic, which management ignored.

00:04:49.480 I and others raised concerns about bullying behavior by senior figures, including Mr. Cochran.

00:04:54.420 But while he remained on air, I faced discipline and marginalization.

00:04:59.400 Now, the transcripts of these meetings show the issue was not about my journalism, but about reputational risk to the corporation.

00:05:06.580 I received a written warning carrying the threat of termination.

00:05:09.660 I was placed under confidentiality restrictions that prevented me from correcting public and internal narratives.

00:05:16.300 CBC silenced and intimidated me simply for trying to do my job and fulfill my public service role to Canadians.

00:05:22.860 Now, this is not about left or right. It's not about one tweet or one career. It's about systemic control, tokenism, selective enforcement, and a toxic culture where intimidation went unchecked.

00:05:38.200 When I refused to waive my rights under the Canadian Human Rights Act in a proposed confidentiality agreement right here, and a gag order, essentially, my role was not renewed.

00:05:49.920 My union, tasked with protecting my rights as an employee, told me explicitly, quote, it's very much a normal thing that we use.

00:05:58.160 After 25 years in journalism, my career ended.

00:06:01.320 That dream I had as a kid of working at CBC shattered along with my trust in it.

00:06:07.180 Now, inside the newsroom, the message was unmistakable and did not need to be spoken.

00:06:11.700 I raised concerns. I challenged centralized control and bias.

00:06:15.380 I fought for real diversity and equal standards.

00:06:18.160 I tried to do my job as a journalist.

00:06:20.740 Within months, I was pulled off the air, disciplined, restricted from speaking,

00:06:24.720 stripped of my primetime program, and eventually out altogether.

00:06:29.500 Now, if you were still working there, would you feel safe raising similar concerns?

00:06:33.380 this is how silence becomes culture. It's how whistleblowers are intimidated. Public institutions

00:06:40.980 do not weaken from scrutiny. They weaken when they avoid it. The CBC that I believed in was

00:06:47.200 strong enough to withstand accountability. If it is to endure as a public broadcaster worthy of

00:06:53.020 Canadians' trust and over $1.4 billion of their money, it must be strong enough to withstand it

00:06:59.900 again accountability is not destruction it is survival thank you for your time

00:07:07.740 thank you and next we go to angelica carrera for the association

00:07:18.540 i don't know if i said your name correctly but you have five minutes starting now thank you

00:07:26.220 you. Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share some

00:07:33.460 observations as part of the study on journalism and the media in Canada and Quebec. I would also

00:07:40.240 like to commend the work of the committee, which made accurate and relevant recommendations in its

00:07:45.180 third report. As the Executive Director of the Association of Community Radio Broadcasters of

00:07:50.660 I have the privilege of observing the work accomplished by these stations.

00:07:54.660 We have 37 radio stations spread across the province from Montreal to Matagami and the Ile de la Madeleine, for example.

00:08:03.660 Most are francophone, but some are bilingual or anglophone, such as the station in Blanc-Sablon.

00:08:10.660 They therefore cover a huge area, sometimes with only meager revenues per year.

00:08:18.660 the work they do is creative tireless and sometimes miraculous there are also

00:08:25.080 media outlets that have been around for many years which have stood the test of

00:08:29.900 time despite the difficulties the vast majority of stations employ at least one

00:08:34.780 journalist sometimes two or three or four for a total of about 50 journalists

00:08:40.140 who work to provide local news coverage rooted in the reality of their respective

00:08:47.600 communities community radio stations have always enjoyed the public's trust and this was confirmed

00:08:54.400 by a study conducted by our association in 2024 furthermore it is not enough to simply say that

00:09:01.840 you are doing local journalism you have to actually do it the physical presence of journalists

00:09:08.320 in community stations is to be distinguished from cases where news is generated by means

00:09:13.120 other than humans or where broadcasts merely relay information from the largest nearby urban center

00:09:20.640 but in addition to the physical presence of journalists and all their volunteers because

00:09:24.320 there are many volunteers it is their mission and raison d'etre that make them excellent ambassadors

00:09:31.040 for the local community their mission is to serve the community in which they are rooted in fact it

00:09:36.880 is the community that creates and manages the radio station that has the community's interests

00:09:41.680 at heart it is important to remember that these are non-profit media outlets and they play an

00:09:49.680 essential role in protecting freedom of the press and defending the public's right to quality

00:09:55.760 information their content is diverse non-partisan comprehensive and reliable we therefore provide

00:10:04.240 the kind of local journalism that the committee refers to in its second recommendation and it is

00:10:10.000 true to say that it needs support a lot of support indeed as i said at the beginning community radio

00:10:16.000 stations operate on meager revenues that are dwindling year after year and when people seem

00:10:21.520 to say they are heavily subsidized that is very unfortunate because the only provincial subsidy

00:10:27.040 they receive for their operations does not even cover the normal salary of one of the company's

00:10:31.840 employees or barely these subsidies are difficult to renew even after many years for the federal

00:10:38.720 government we have the local journalism initiative which we really appreciate and a little project

00:10:43.600 funding is offered for those who managed to qualify but it is not enough fortunately we are

00:10:48.480 stepping up our efforts to promote the community radio initiative which could be managed by the

00:10:55.120 community radio fund of canada in an attempt to increase the funds available to all community

00:11:01.600 radio stations in the country we are asking the government for annual operating funding

00:11:06.560 of approximately 30 million dollars to provide around 85 000 per station which is still very

00:11:12.800 modest compared to the funding provided or needed by other broadcasters this assistance would help

00:11:20.880 ensure basic financial visit viability otherwise radio stations must rely on advertising revenue

00:11:28.480 to try to make up for this shortfall but as several experts have already pointed out this

00:11:33.040 advertising revenue has clearly shifted to foreign platforms which are gobbling up almost everything

00:11:38.000 this is not new canadian government money is being used to grow the financial assets of large

00:11:43.360 american companies multinationals this goes against the bi-local policy promoted by this

00:11:50.240 same government i would also like to highlight the work we are doing along with our two sister

00:11:55.440 associations the ncra the national campus and community radio association and the alliance of

00:12:02.880 community radio broadcasters of canada to try to issue a clear directive on local advertising

00:12:10.240 a specific portion would be systematically allocated to community advertising

00:12:16.720 together our three associations represent independent non-profit community radio stations

00:12:23.280 across Canada. We believe that this directive would encourage governments to allocate more

00:12:29.980 of the funds that are already there but used elsewhere to local media. It is a reallocation

00:12:36.400 of existing funds, it's not a new request. But above all, we believe that advertising

00:12:42.320 broadcast in this way would have a much greater and more lasting impact on Canadians. As the

00:12:49.220 The Government of Canada continues to invest in public communications to raise awareness

00:12:54.320 of its programs and services, it is increasingly important to ensure that these messages are

00:13:00.760 delivered through channels that truly reach the intended audiences, rather than through

00:13:05.580 digital giants that have no roots or support in Canada.

00:13:10.320 Advertising that does not take into account geographic, linguistic, or digital barriers

00:13:14.800 risks leaving some communities confused and misinformed.

00:13:18.420 short the general idea is to help the government fulfill its mission of informing the country's

00:13:24.420 entire population and having a more significant impact on it thank you very much thank you

00:13:32.500 clou and mario bartel from freshnet news collectively you have five minutes i'm not

00:13:38.180 sure how you want to share that thank you for the opportunity to speak at this committee

00:13:43.300 my name is mariel bartell and my name is janice clue and along with theresa mcmanus and cornelia

00:13:49.220 naylor we are the co-founders of freshet news the first non-profit news cooperative in western

00:13:54.740 canada that's union supported we are veteran community news reporters editors paginators

00:14:00.820 with more than 100 years of combined experience covering new westminster burnaby and the tri-cities

00:14:06.340 in british columbia approximately 600 000 people outside of the city of vancouver

00:14:12.080 Last April, Glacier Media, now called Low Star Media, closed our three online publications,

00:14:18.380 the New Westminster Record, Burnaby Now, and Tri-City News, in the middle of the federal election.

00:14:24.180 It meant we couldn't cover the all-candidates meetings, our candidates couldn't get their messaging out,

00:14:29.000 and our readers were lost about who to vote for.

00:14:31.420 This is dangerous to democracy.

00:14:34.840 When I originally landed at the Tri-City News in 1991,

00:14:38.420 virtually every community in the Lower Mainland was served by at least two local papers.

00:14:45.320 Consolidation and closures winnowed that down to one in most communities by 2015.

00:14:50.260 Then in August 2023, the same month our meta-social media shut down,

00:14:55.400 Glacier Media stopped printing our newspapers altogether.

00:14:58.380 The company said online was the only way forward.

00:15:01.840 It wasn't.

00:15:03.180 Less than two years later, five rapidly growing cities in two villages immediately east of Vancouver

00:15:08.340 were left with little or no local news source that meant decisions made at city

00:15:13.500 halls and school boards got no independent coverage there were no

00:15:17.760 stories about young athletes and emerging artists no coverage of local

00:15:21.860 events festivals parades what may have been no longer economically viable to

00:15:27.880 glacier media was untenable to the journalists who have dedicated their

00:15:31.220 careers to sharing those stories after all we live in those communities too so

00:15:36.600 four of us got together with a co-op developer and with the support of our union you know for

00:15:41.080 local 2000 we put together a plan to keep our communities informed we spent the summer and

00:15:47.080 early fall of 2025 learning about co-op structures and governance fundraising and doing community

00:15:53.560 outreach people told us they didn't know what was happening in their hometowns anymore

00:15:59.480 on october 15th we launched freshet news online a single title covering all our communities

00:16:06.080 It's named for the annual spring runoff from the northern snows that washed down the Fraser River, past our cities.

00:16:12.260 It symbolizes renewal, a fresh start.

00:16:15.460 Two months later, we revived a print edition.

00:16:18.360 We're monthly for now, but we plan to increase to twice a month in April, with our ultimate goal to return to weekly publication.

00:16:26.220 We're four journalists who never had to give much thought to the business side of our craft,

00:16:30.720 the ads that ran between our stories and the distribution network that got those stories to readers.

00:16:35.960 the learning curve has been steep but our journalism skill set has made us adept to

00:16:40.840 changing gears when needed the communities are responding our website traffic grows every week

00:16:47.080 as do subscriptions to our weekly email newsletter advertisers are eager to get into our newspaper

00:16:52.920 and readers are scooping up the newspapers 20 000 of them from our distribution points at city halls

00:16:58.840 community and cultural recreation hubs grocery stores coffee shops and barber shops senior

00:17:05.480 residences we even get calls to replenish we truly we truly feel our model of non-profit

00:17:12.600 locally rooted journalism that's accountable to the communities we serve is a way forward

00:17:17.560 as corporate media gives up but what we're doing is not new in fact across the united states as

00:17:23.160 corporate media abandons communities due to lack of profits reporter-led news organizations and

00:17:28.360 collectives are filling the gap still supports are lacking for journalism startups in canada

00:17:34.760 we've come this far mostly on a volunteer basis as we continue looking for jobs

00:17:39.480 our severance and ei benefits have dried up our fundraising at community events and through

00:17:44.440 online through an online crowdfunding platform has comprised mostly small individual donations

00:17:51.320 10 25 100 at a time we don't have charitable status so we can't issue tax receipts that might

00:17:57.880 shake loose transformative big money support foundation funding frequently looks for a proven

00:18:04.120 history something that's difficult for a startup to provide grant opportunities are often like

00:18:08.920 fitting a square peg into a round hole and the few that are journalism specific like the local

00:18:13.800 journalism initiative are already over subscribed and don't provide funding for critical supports

00:18:19.080 like hiring ad reps who can bring in ad revenue or covering costs like software subscriptions

00:18:24.840 insurance printing and distribution make no mistake many of the media's industry's wounds

00:18:32.280 are self-inflicted too much growth too quickly back when times were flush too much consolidation

00:18:38.680 too many resources expended chasing bad ideas too many owners that are investors rather than people

00:18:44.520 who believe in the mission of news those owners would have would have us believe the news business

00:18:50.200 is dead but our from our experience in the past few months since we started fresh at news has

00:18:55.800 been quite the opposite people want to be connected to each other and their communities

00:19:00.360 free from algorithms businesses want to share their stories local customers and journalists

00:19:06.760 want to be able to write and keep sharing the stories putting community back into community

00:19:11.480 news is the way forward thank you thank you it's a very effective use of sharing your time and as

00:19:18.760 a former community reporter i really appreciate your efforts thank you for all you're doing

00:19:25.080 next we have the friends of canadian media rash shown and randy kit i expect an equally engaging

00:19:31.960 back and forth between the two of you yeah the floor for five minutes thank you madam chair

00:19:37.960 members of the committee friends is a non-partisan public interest organization dedicated to ensuring

00:19:42.600 that canadians have access to strong independent canadian journalism and storytelling we advocate

00:19:48.200 for citizens not for corporations because a healthy media system is essential to a healthy

00:19:53.160 democracy let me begin plainly the state of journalism in canada is poor and in most

00:19:58.760 communities it is deteriorating further over the past decade and a half hundreds of local

00:20:03.960 news outlets have closed across the country millions of canadians now live in communities

00:20:08.680 with little or no local news coverage newsrooms have shrunk journalists have been laid off

00:20:14.520 entire beats have disappeared this is not simply an industry transition it's a democratic deficit

00:20:21.640 local journalism scrutinizes municipal councils it covers courts it informs citizens about public

00:20:27.800 health education and emergencies when journalism disappears civic participation declines

00:20:34.520 polarization increases and misinformation fills the vacuum governments have taken important steps

00:20:40.840 including the journalism labor tax credit the local journalism initiative the online news act

00:20:46.280 the online streaming act and support for cbc these measures matter they demonstrate recognition that

00:20:52.760 journalism is not just another sector it's democratic infrastructure but the structural

00:20:58.520 disruption facing canadian journalism remains profound the economic model that sustained local

00:21:04.360 news has been destabilized by global digital platforms that capture advertising revenue while

00:21:10.200 investing minimally in canadian news production that brings me to five areas where federal

00:21:15.720 leadership is essential first the online news act and the online streaming act are critical to

00:21:21.560 creating a sustainable funding framework for local news these laws must not be weakened

00:21:27.000 traded away or hollowed out through exemptions or side deals regulatory certainty and enforcement

00:21:33.000 are essential second eligibility for the journalism labor tax credit should be expanded to include

00:21:38.920 broadcasters broadcast newsrooms particularly local television radio face financial pressures

00:21:45.240 similar to print the they too are pillars of local accountability third parliament should close the

00:21:51.560 loophole in section 19 of the income tax act that allows full deductibility of advertising on

00:21:56.920 foreign digital platforms canadian advertising dollars should not receive preferential tax

00:22:02.280 treatment when they're directed to foreign platforms rather than canadian outlets fourth

00:22:07.880 the federal government should commit to directing at least 25 of its advertising budget to trusted

00:22:13.560 domestic news organizations both publishers and broadcasters big and small this would

00:22:19.640 strengthen local journalism while ensuring canadians receive critical public information

00:22:24.360 through reliable channels fifth canadian news creators must be protected from having their

00:22:29.560 content used by artificial intelligence companies without permission or compensation copyright

00:22:35.480 protections licensing frameworks and transparency requirements must ensure journalism is not

00:22:41.160 harvested without value flowing back to those who produce it finally a vibrant cbc is part of a

00:22:47.480 strong ecosystem alongside successful private and independent media as the national public

00:22:53.240 broadcaster it plays a foundational role in connecting regions serving official language

00:22:57.960 minority communities and maintaining news capacity where commercial models are under strain

00:23:03.080 i will now turn to my colleague randy kit thank you raj chair members of the committee

00:23:08.520 uniform represents approximately 9 000 media workers across canada in the last several years

00:23:13.880 alone hundreds of journalists and media employees have lost their jobs when newsrooms shrink the

00:23:19.320 consequences are immediate fewer reporters at city hall fewer investigative projects fewer

00:23:25.240 rural correspondence and more reliance on centralized news content and yet the demand

00:23:30.840 for reliable information has never been greater as fresh at news can tell you we are living through

00:23:37.160 a period of geopolitical instability rising information and increased public cynicism

00:23:43.240 journalism is one of the few professions capable of grounding public debate and verified fact

00:23:49.400 failing to stabilize canadian journalism means surrendering not just jobs but our sovereignty

00:23:55.640 losing our local accountability shared facts and democratic resilience that safeguard our nation's

00:24:01.400 independence journalism is essential to a functioning democracy and the canadian

00:24:06.680 government should treat it like a national park something that must be nurtured protected

00:24:12.280 and properly funded for future generations a strong journalism sector is not a luxury

00:24:18.600 it's infrastructure for democracy and it's imperative that we sustain it we thank the

00:24:23.560 the committee for undertaking the study and stand ready to assist thank you very much uh we'll now

00:24:31.040 turn to honest reporting canada i have mike fegelman in the room do you have colleagues

00:24:35.520 online i don't oh they are here we go are you all joining in the five minute opening

00:24:41.160 joining in the q a component okay very good very good you have the floor now for five minutes

00:24:46.220 good morning my name is mike fegelman and i'm the executive director of honest reporting canada

00:24:51.120 we're a non-profit organization that ensures fair and accurate Canadian media coverage of Israel.

00:24:56.440 We started more than 20 years ago, but the overt media bias that we have experienced and seen over

00:25:01.680 the last two and a half years has made that era look quaint by comparison. Just hours after

00:25:07.040 thousands of Palestinian terrorists invaded Israel on October 7th, carrying out an orgy of murder,

00:25:12.480 rape, torture, and kidnappings, our taxpayer-funded broadcaster leapt into action. In a letter to

00:25:18.200 Editorial staff, George Ahe, CBC's former director of journalistic standards and practices, warned journalists not to use the word terrorist when referring to Hamas, not to admit that it was, and even when Canadian officials refer to Hamas as terrorists.

00:25:36.620 He wrote that reporters, quote, should add context to ensure that audiences is a.

00:25:46.620 It's to be.

00:25:49.620 And for a wide swan of the Canadian media landscaped, their role was not.

00:25:55.620 But to use the immense influence to promote a narrow ideological agenda.

00:26:01.620 agenda. Present day, news outlets parrot talking points from pro-Palestinian activists.

00:26:15.080 When anti-Israel groups sneeze, it achieves wall-to-wall news coverage. When Amnesty

00:26:20.180 International accuses Israel of committing a genocide, going so far as to make up a new

00:26:25.040 definition in order to do so, or when a discredited group of non-experts make such

00:26:29.600 The unfoundry claim of genocide and starvation were promoted to media, and as it soon became

00:26:47.840 clear that those allegations were false, reporters didn't apologize, they simply moved on.

00:26:53.000 Now, like a cat chasing laser dot on the wall, the worst offenders in anti-Israel media bias in Canada, whether the CBC, the Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star or others, take their cues not from what's newsworthy, but rather what complaints are being made by pro-Palestinian activists.

00:27:10.600 When reporters document the worrying rise of Islamic radicalism in Canada, the presence of Iranian regime officials in our nation, or the impact of Qatari dark money in Canadian universities, they are treated as persona non grata.

00:27:24.680 When a Canadian mosque recently honoured Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei and glorified him as a martyr, our journalists ignored this brazen support for terrorism.

00:27:34.760 Our journalists have a solemn duty to hold the powerful to account, to not act as their water carriers.

00:27:41.360 But that's what they've done, promoting hardline anti-Israel disinformation and acting as unpaid publicists for immense web of extremist actors in Canada.

00:27:52.020 This media coverage directly contributes to a spike in anti-Jewish hate crimes.

00:27:57.100 When Israel is painted as a genocidal and pariah state and opponents are widely silenced,

00:28:03.300 a target is drawn on the back of Canadian Jews.

00:28:06.020 The incessant demonization of Israel, and by extension Jews,

00:28:09.700 has led to an unprecedented attack on the Jewish community,

00:28:12.580 with terrorist rallies now a regular occurrence on Canadian streets,

00:28:16.980 and Jewish schools and synagogues, as we saw this past week, shot at, while far too many elected

00:28:23.040 leaders and law enforcement ignore this cancer that is in our midst. Over the past two years,

00:28:28.820 our media promoted ideology over facts, and in the case of the CBC, did so at the taxpayer's

00:28:35.260 expense. I'm happy to recount numerous examples of Canadian media bias that we have confronted.

00:28:40.740 When our media act as stenographers for a regressive and hateful worldview, it's not

00:28:46.320 reporting the news, it is creating it. And when our leaders stay silent, they let it happen.

00:28:52.100 Our elected leaders must take the lead to remedy the situation. In my written testimony and

00:28:57.580 submission to this committee, I've offered three concrete courses of action that you can take

00:29:02.460 directly to counter these critical issues, and I would be happy to elucidate them today for anyone

00:29:07.660 interested. As well, I've brought with me here today two colleagues, Dr. Haran Shani-Narkas,

00:29:13.720 CEO of InnoHives, and Amanda Eskenazi, Director of Education at HR Canada Charitable Organization.

00:29:20.280 They conducted a comprehensive review of the CBC's coverage of the Israel-Hamas war

00:29:25.160 and have provided real scientific evidence of asymmetric coverage. It isn't an opinion that

00:29:30.840 the CBC is one-sided. We now have scientific, irrefutable proof. Canadian taxpayers fund

00:29:38.120 public broadcasters to provide accurate, impartial, and reliable information.

00:29:42.680 When media outlets choose ideology over facts, they fail in this fundamental duty,

00:29:47.760 leaving Canadians misinformed on issues of national security, on issues of terrorism and international conflict.

00:29:54.140 This is not merely a concern for one community.

00:29:57.940 It affects every Canadian's right to understand the world as it truly is. 0.69

00:30:02.080 Restoring trust in our media is not a partisan issue, but a national imperative.

00:30:08.720 parliament must act now to ensure that our media serve canadians with facts

00:30:12.480 with fairness and with integrity because an informed public depends on it

00:30:16.880 and our democracy requires it thank you thank you and finally we have paul deegan

00:30:23.920 with news media canada welcome sir you have five minutes starting now

00:30:28.880 Bonjour. Media d'Info Canada represents about 550 news titles across Canada, from independent weekly

00:30:41.040 community newspapers to large urban and national dailies. The advertising market in Canada continues

00:30:47.200 to remain very challenging. Simply put, too many ad dollars are being scooped up by Google. Last year,

00:30:53.760 a U.S. federal court judge ruled that Google, which operates in all three areas of the market,

00:30:58.880 the buying, the selling, and the ad exchange itself illegally monopolize the ad tech market

00:31:05.040 through anti-competitive conduct. News publishers fully embrace and support the responsible and

00:31:11.840 ethical use of artificial intelligence. At the same time, despite deploying bot blockers, we are

00:31:18.340 seeing the theft of our intellectual property on an industrial scale. Companies like Google,

00:31:24.400 Microsoft, OpenAI, which is familiar to all of you in terms of the role their employees didn't play

00:31:30.440 in alerting authorities to the Tumblr Ridge incident, perplexity, and even Canada's Cohere

00:31:36.140 are ingesting, repackaging, and distributing copyright-protected content directly from

00:31:42.200 published news articles. These companies aren't just providing snippets that one would find

00:31:47.340 through a traditional search. They're providing very detailed summaries and passing it off as

00:31:52.520 their own creation. They're depriving news publishers of audience, subscriptions, and

00:31:57.440 advertising, capturing the value journalism depends on for its survival. Moreover, Google,

00:32:04.700 which is dominant in search, has embedded AI-generated summaries directly into their

00:32:09.740 search interface without providing publishers with an effective opt-out mechanism. If publishers

00:32:15.700 want to block Google's AI crawler, they find themselves de-endexed or unable to attract traffic

00:32:21.620 to their sites news is an essential input to the knowledge economy it helps people businesses and

00:32:27.860 investors make better more informed real-time decisions it's also a necessary input for the

00:32:34.500 output of the ai companies but the value transfer cannot be asymmetric the user needs to pay the

00:32:40.980 creator the content theft by a com ai companies must stop and government can help first public

00:32:48.500 Services and Procurement Canada and Treasury Board can work together to ensure that those on

00:32:53.680 the government's list of artificial intelligence suppliers, and there's a hundred and some odd

00:32:57.540 companies on that list, sign a supplier agreement that states that they will use AR material

00:33:03.920 ethically with a commitment to the principles of transparency, consent, and attribution with

00:33:09.240 respect to all copyright protected source content. Second, the industry minister can ask the Comp

00:33:15.040 Bureau to look into the state of competition with respect to search and AI. Google bot should be

00:33:21.120 split into two crawlers, one for AI and one for search. That would help level the playing field

00:33:27.300 between publishers in Google and between other AI companies in Google. Those companies have no

00:33:33.080 incentive to sign commercial agreements with publishers when Google's AI services are getting

00:33:38.140 the content for free. Third, the Copyright Act should not be amended to include a text in data

00:33:44.660 mining exception or be weakened in any way. Rights holders must be protected, no exceptions.

00:33:51.060 On the positive side, the Online News Act, Well and Perfect, is working for Canadian news

00:33:56.260 publishers. Prior to the act and in an effort to thwart it, Google and Meta did content licensing

00:34:02.260 deals with a number of news publishers. Most of our members, however, were left out in the cold,

00:34:06.980 without assent. Today, whether you're a large publisher or a smaller independent,

00:34:11.700 you're getting about $16,400 per year per full-time journalist. For example, the World

00:34:18.060 Spectator from Moosem in Saskatchewan received almost $80,000 last year. Prior to the Online

00:34:24.920 News Act, most of our members never saw a dime in content licensing from these American big tech

00:34:30.500 firms. Between the Online News Act and the Canadian Journalism Labor Tax Credit, which rewards those

00:34:36.240 who maintain and grow journalism jobs, there's finally a level of predictability for business

00:34:40.860 planning which is translating into a level of stability in many newsrooms where we are seeing

00:34:45.900 investment after years of cost cutting. Both these measures should be maintained. Let me turn briefly

00:34:51.580 to government advertising. Despite the government stated by Canadian policy changing its agency of

00:34:57.500 record and spending tens of millions of dollars each year, news publishers are not seeing any

00:35:02.540 meaningful federal government ad dollars. Yet when a bank, a retailer or a car company runs a national

00:35:08.940 or regional campaign, news publishers do okay. That's because their chief marketing officers

00:35:14.500 know we are a great way to reach and engage Canadians. So why are we only seeing micro

00:35:18.980 pennies on the dollar when it comes to the federal campaigns? It's simple. The government's agency of

00:35:24.300 record is doing what is easiest and most profitable for them, and that's programmatic advertising

00:35:29.520 through American big tech firms. We hope the committee will recommend an advertising set

00:35:34.160 aside that you heard about earlier and ad set aside done right with with on the publishing side

00:35:40.080 we for example reach 86 percent of canadians who engage with reach newspaper content each week

00:35:46.560 it's time for the government to think more like a marketer who cares about reach and efficacy we can

00:35:51.840 help you reach engaged audiences better than anyone for advertisers whether governments or

00:35:57.120 the private sector credible journalism strengthens trust while delivering better business results in

00:36:02.800 in a brand safe environment. There's absolutely no reason the federal government shouldn't

00:36:07.220 use Canadian news brands to inform Canadians.

00:36:12.300 We are in an age of misinformation and disinformation amplified by algorithms. Facts are essential.

00:36:25.180 information created by real people who have fact-gathering, fact-checking,

00:36:32.860 editorial and legal review, and being accountable costs real money. Thank you.

00:36:36.460 Questions from members starting with Mrs. Thomas for six minutes.

00:36:43.360 You have the floor. Awesome, thank you so much. Thank you to each of you for being

00:36:47.560 here today. My first set of questions is going to go to Mr. Danrash. Mr. Danrash,

00:36:52.300 I'm just curious. There was a document that you talked about in your opening remarks called

00:36:56.620 Parameters for Political Guests. Would you be willing to table that with the committee?

00:37:01.180 I would. Perfect. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Now, I just want to get to the bottom of this.

00:37:06.220 Can you talk a little bit about any pressure that you experienced at the CBC

00:37:11.420 to shape stories in a particular fashion? Sure, I can. But I do want to spend part of my time

00:37:18.220 because i i am here speaking and this is my story but over the past several days and even when this

00:37:24.140 story initially came out there have been other cbc employees current and former that have come

00:37:30.540 forward to me that are afraid to speak out publicly and they have sent me some statements

00:37:35.340 so i'd like to if i can read into the record some of what i have been getting from current

00:37:40.460 and former employees uh this is a current employee at the cbc i've been with cbc for 10 years and i

00:37:46.300 And I have witnessed and experienced multiple incidents of the misuse of taxpayer dollars, racism, favoritism, nepotism, sexual harassment, and verbal abuse.

00:37:55.720 And then she goes on to outline specific examples.

00:37:59.420 This next individual was someone that you would all know if I said their name.

00:38:04.640 They left the CBC after a 10-year career.

00:38:08.280 The end of their statement says,

00:38:09.900 without exaggeration, I experienced toxicity every single day, and it was almost always from

00:38:16.020 the same people. It was not subtle. It was not hidden. It was part of the daily reality of

00:38:21.080 working there. She goes on to say that she was set to interview Catherine Tate on air.

00:38:28.520 I introduced myself to her in the makeup room as the host. In front of others, she responded,

00:38:33.060 I didn't know I'd be interviewed by somebody who looks like she is 14. That moment stayed with me.

00:38:38.320 It was dismissive, inappropriate, and reflected a broader culture in which respect was not always equally extended to everyone. 0.86

00:38:47.460 On Mr. Cochran, this is one of his former producers, his toxic behavior extended beyond editorial matters and was more often than not deeply hypocritical.

00:38:56.020 While he publicly presented himself as a supporter of diversity, he actively undermined the contributions of colleagues who were minorities.

00:39:03.520 This is somebody who left the industry and had to go to another country.

00:39:11.400 After about a year of working there as an anchor, this is in Vancouver, I was suddenly removed from the anchor desk.

00:39:17.480 I was told the decision was related to the color of my skin, that as a white person, I did not fit the diversity targets they were trying to meet.

00:39:26.600 No concerns about my performance had ever been raised.

00:39:29.880 my concern was the system and the reasoning behind the decision my frustration was never

00:39:35.640 directed at the individual who stepped into the role she was also said that she was forced to

00:39:40.840 check a box if somebody of a diverse background appeared on the air and she said that that was

00:39:46.920 concerning to her i believe it's important to include a broad range of voices and perspectives

00:39:51.000 but reducing interview subjects to a check bar box felt like an overly simplistic way of

00:39:56.600 approaching something that deserves much more care and thought and i can go on there are a number of

00:40:02.040 these stories and it is shocking these people have been traumatized they are scared to come out they

00:40:08.680 are scared of the professional repercussions and management like laundry lao like brody fenlon like

00:40:15.160 kathy perry like chris carter they are concerned about protecting the reputation of the organization

00:40:23.640 as opposed to dealing with these issues when it comes to employees.

00:40:28.760 So, Mr. Danmash, during your time there, which, sorry, can you just outline what years were you there?

00:40:33.860 I was there. I finished at Global, I think, in 2020, 2021.

00:40:39.400 It's in the bio that I provided.

00:40:42.260 And then I came to Ottawa. I was a parliamentary reporter.

00:40:45.400 I flew around with the Prime Minister. I covered Parliament Hill.

00:40:49.240 You know, I was, then I went back to Toronto.

00:40:52.520 I was on Marketplace.

00:40:53.700 I covered the Queen's funeral.

00:40:55.360 And then I got my own show, which I thought, you know,

00:40:57.920 I'd have some say in terms of how that show went.

00:41:00.380 And on the intersection panel, you know, this is a picture here

00:41:05.020 of all the folks that we had on the panel.

00:41:07.720 You know, we've got here one with Raheem Mohammed and Rachel Gilmore.

00:41:11.320 I don't know if you can get two people very far apart

00:41:14.800 on the ideological spectrum.

00:41:16.180 Is that Sheila Copps, Brian Lilly, and Faye Johnston, right?

00:41:20.000 We were having the Canadian conversation, and this panel was cancelled.

00:41:24.560 And you also have issues of pay equity when it comes to all of these folks.

00:41:29.400 So, okay, so obviously your point here was to create a panel that was full of diversity,

00:41:34.080 not just in skin colour or ethnicity or religious background, perhaps, but you wanted diversity of thought.

00:41:40.520 Correct.

00:41:41.000 Were you given the journalistic freedom then to move forward and do that for the sake of the Canadian public?

00:41:47.020 No, I mean, the issue became with the panelists, we had a list of 43 people or 45 people that Power and Politics gave us that said, do not go near these people, right?

00:42:03.640 And some of these folks were like reporters, like Robert Benzie.

00:42:06.680 There's a story breaking at Queen's Park, and we're on at 7 o'clock.

00:42:10.640 We should be able to call somebody who covers Queen's Park and talk to them.

00:42:15.620 But there were these continued hurdles and roadblocks that were set up to really have a certain group of folks in Ottawa in control of who was allowed on programs.

00:42:29.120 Particularly mine was a concern.

00:42:31.560 And there were repeated episodes of conservatives being blocked.

00:42:35.780 I mean, I have the G-chats right here.

00:42:38.760 I said, you know, in terms of getting folks on, that we need to have balance.

00:42:45.340 It's not about just having a show with conservatives or just with liberals.

00:42:49.840 But if power and politics is going to have liberals talking points on all the time, we should have balance as a network.

00:42:56.320 And I said we are in contravention of Section 11 of, I told Brody Fenlon this, and also Andre Lau, repeatedly, we are in contravention of the Broadcasting Act if we are not providing equitable time for all perspectives.

00:43:10.840 So I don't want to flood the show with conservatives, but I do want to have balance.

00:43:14.980 And there are, you know, I can talk to my legal team because some of this is before the Human Rights Commission in terms of how this happened.

00:43:23.920 But there were repeated attempts over and over and over again.

00:43:27.740 At one point, I heard, okay, well, maybe you can have NDP folks on, but conservatives are a no.

00:43:34.960 I mean, it should blow the Canadian public's mind that this was the stuff that was going on.

00:43:41.100 Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you all for those opening remarks.

00:43:49.680 My first question is for Ms. Klu and Mr. Bartel.

00:43:52.620 Firstly, it's a pleasure to meet you both.

00:43:54.520 Ms. Royer speaks very fondly of you.

00:43:56.660 I'd like to focus on a highlight of your opening remarks.

00:43:59.240 You noted a lack of support.

00:44:01.220 I quoted this because I thought it was interesting and well said.

00:44:04.060 Grant opportunities are like fitting a square peg into a round hole.

00:44:07.540 From your experience in building a new outlet, what are the biggest barriers facing in the

00:44:11.080 independent journalism, startups in Canada,

00:44:12.920 and what do you believe would best help address those barriers?

00:44:21.360 We're journalists, and we've run head-on

00:44:25.840 into some of the challenges of creating a viable business

00:44:29.000 and some of the costs of that.

00:44:32.000 The local journalism initiative has stepped up with some funding for us,

00:44:36.200 so that helps cover some wage for our crew.

00:44:41.080 but you know that that doesn't deal with we need to hire someone who can sell ads we don't know

00:44:46.360 how to do that we shouldn't be doing that we're journalists so we need to have we want to maintain

00:44:50.920 that that separation between between the ad side and the journalism side so luckily we have found

00:44:57.280 some people who are willing to help us and off the side of their desks and get us going and but

00:45:02.460 you know to go forward to to ramp up we have to become professional at every level of this and

00:45:08.500 And so, you know, some of that infrastructure support is critical to this.

00:45:12.460 You know, we ran in headlong into just how expensive some of these things are, software licenses to get to allow us to produce a newspaper, web hosting fees, insurance.

00:45:24.380 All these things that we were completely oblivious to in our role in the newsroom have come home to roost.

00:45:31.500 And, you know, luckily, our crowdfunding gave us a good foundation to start tackling some of these things.

00:45:36.800 But again, as we move forward, becoming a viable business will mean backfilling a lot of those things with support.

00:45:46.840 Fantastic. Over the past few years, certainly, we've seen a significant number of community newspapers close or reduce their reporting capacity.

00:45:53.740 You highlighted this in your opening remarks.

00:45:55.640 From your perspective as a longtime local journalist reporter, could you speak to what happens to community accountability and civic engagement when local news coverage disappears?

00:46:03.320 I believe you highlighted that it was dangerous to local democracy but I'm

00:46:07.340 keen to see you expand on that if possible. We became a news desert. We have

00:46:13.400 news deserts and news poor jurisdictions and Glacier Media closing us

00:46:19.280 in the middle of the federal election was was quite bad. So we've had people

00:46:25.360 pretending to be reporters sit at the media desk in council meetings and

00:46:34.280 they're reporting when we're not so that's dangerous

00:46:41.000 perfect thank you uh your association has represents 37 different radio stations as

00:46:49.480 you know many community radio stations depend on volunteers and limited funding what are the

00:46:55.080 biggest operational challenges that community radio is facing today i'm thinking of lower

00:47:01.160 advertising revenue digital disruptions with foreign platforms well you stated it well

00:47:10.920 there are all of the operations done by volunteers which isn't ideal because even though those

00:47:18.520 volunteers give their time medicate themselves make these radio stations work any operation that

00:47:26.760 is based on that model is hard to keep up over the years but it's the case they they manage

00:47:34.600 but funding for operations that's the basic need that's what they need and it's what they don't

00:47:41.880 have and then advertise as i said and others have said advertising revenue aren't there anymore

00:47:52.280 it's gone to foreign platforms so it would be very good to have a clear government directive

00:48:00.760 and then radio stations could contribute to getting the government's message through

00:48:06.840 and then you mentioned the digital transition that's another element that's a major challenge

00:48:13.400 radio stations are cornerstones for their community they're on the FM station but also

00:48:25.040 on the web they can be listened to there are podcasts news so these are really complete

00:48:32.900 media outlets but we need to help them with the digital transition it can be harder depending on

00:48:38.460 the station.

00:48:39.460 Parfait.

00:48:40.460 Mr. Schultz, Canada's broadcasting and media regulatory framework was designed at a time

00:48:46.320 when traditional television and radio dominated the landscape.

00:48:49.660 Given the rapid rise of global streaming platforms and digital media companies, do you believe

00:48:53.920 Canada's existing regulatory tools are still adequate for protecting Canadian journalism

00:48:58.080 and cultural sovereignty in the digital age?

00:49:00.580 I believe the tools are there.

00:49:03.920 I think perhaps the CRTC has been a little bit slow in terms of taking action.

00:49:07.760 The CRTC has done some good things and certainly the government of Canada has done some good

00:49:12.160 things.

00:49:13.160 The Online Streaming Act, the Online News Act has been enormously helpful.

00:49:16.500 The tax credit has been helpful, the local journalism initiative.

00:49:19.480 The CRTC made a very important decision last year to ask streamers to contribute a base

00:49:25.380 contribution of 1.5% of its annual revenue to support local news.

00:49:30.320 That's being challenged in court right now, but we feel confident it will go the CRTC's

00:49:34.600 way.

00:49:35.600 are all important steps but more needs to be done especially given the the canadian center for policy

00:49:42.080 alternatives conclusion that a significant portion of the canadian population i believe

00:49:49.600 it's 2.5 percent have access to no local news or only one local news outlet so that's really

00:49:54.880 a problem that needs to be corrected the tools are there and the regulator needs to be encouraged to

00:49:59.200 use them now we go to mr shampoo for six minutes thank you madam chair i'd like to thank our

00:50:13.840 witnesses today we have a great panel who represent the importance of the topic we are

00:50:19.760 covering with the study madam chair before speaking to the witnesses i'd like to table a motion

00:50:24.160 i've discussed it with a few members around the table it's a motion that i will read

00:50:30.020 and i'd like us to keep a little time at the end of the meeting to debate it i will read it

00:50:36.460 and then we can discuss it a little later to not interrupt questions to witnesses it is a motion

00:50:43.520 being tabled in relation to radio canada's decision to offer its programming its news

00:50:51.540 on the Prime Video platform owned by Amazon.

00:50:55.980 We find that this is a decision that needs to be explained and questioned.

00:51:01.260 So the motion is that, pursuant to Standing Order 108-2,

00:51:05.060 the committee invites the CEO of CBC Radio-Canada, Marie-Philippe Bouchard,

00:51:10.720 to appear before the committee for a minimum of two hours

00:51:13.440 to explain the decision to make EC-APDE's programming available

00:51:19.120 on the prime video platform owned by the american multinational amazon even before it is made

00:51:24.500 available to quebecers and francophones in canada on two point tv or on a canadian-owned platform

00:51:30.520 madam chair i've prepared this in french and english it's available to committee members

00:51:38.480 if i may i'd like to ask us to reserve time at the end of the meeting today to discuss this motion

00:51:46.000 so we can explain the spirit of this request from the block cubiqua i think everyone agrees

00:51:54.360 thank you thank you madam chair once again thank you to all of the witnesses for joining us today

00:52:03.500 i think this is an extremely important study it's a very concerning topic

00:52:09.160 and the variety of media perspectives here are a testament to that.

00:52:16.720 I'll start with Ms. Carrero because we've heard a lot about community media

00:52:23.640 and we know that times are tough.

00:52:27.820 Support isn't what is needed.

00:52:33.040 I also want to ask a question to Mr. Deegan who represents written media

00:52:37.740 but you talked about the local journalism initiative have you noticed a decrease in

00:52:47.620 support through that program for your members is the support still what your

00:52:56.500 members need it to be because I know it's essential for local coverage in

00:53:00.940 Quebec and elsewhere so what is the state on the ground for your members

00:53:04.840 with the local journalism initiative.

00:53:07.980 Yes, the LJI is something we appreciate.

00:53:10.660 It's funding that's there for stations.

00:53:14.800 We haven't noticed a specific decrease as such.

00:53:18.940 Stations request it and they hope to obtain it.

00:53:22.940 However, we always hope it will be renewed in time

00:53:28.580 for budget 2026.

00:53:30.560 That's what we are hoping for.

00:53:32.220 and sometimes even if a station has that lji it needs to be possible to hire someone not just

00:53:45.100 getting the subsidy but being able to use it but that's another kettle of fish but i just wanted

00:53:50.700 to mention it the lji is something we really appreciate and we really hope to see it renewed

00:53:57.020 in Budget 2026. I'd like to ask a question to Paul Deegan as well. I know

00:54:01.760 your members often use that very important program, the Local Journalism

00:54:09.960 Initiative, for written media. It's very important. Andriane LaRouche, the

00:54:13.940 member for Shefford, received from the Val West newspaper in her area, she was

00:54:22.360 told that the funding had decreased by 30% this year, which has a huge impact on small written

00:54:29.000 media in the regions and community outlets. Is this a concern you've seen at News Media Canada?

00:54:40.760 Yes. For newspapers, it's about 37,000 per journalist this year.

00:54:47.800 but we have about 200 journalists under this program it's very important for weeklies and

00:55:01.820 other independent community media have you heard from your members that the program was less

00:55:07.400 generous with them this year yes yes so there's still the expectation that this program would be

00:55:14.240 increased, which is necessary to address media deserts. Media deserts, news deserts are everywhere.

00:55:21.360 Thank you very much. Back to you, Ms. Carrero. We heard earlier about artificial intelligence,

00:55:28.260 and this will be coming up often in the study, surely. As community media, I imagine you don't

00:55:35.740 use AI to prepare the news and broadcast it, but some media are using that technology

00:55:42.100 due to economic reality, but often they use programs that you don't have access to.

00:55:49.980 So what is your perspective on that distortion and the equity of the rules?

00:55:56.060 I imagine it wouldn't be a cause for celebration.

00:56:01.580 Correct.

00:56:02.220 I think you are correct.

00:56:05.520 community radio is based on principles that they try to keep up and if there are people who could

00:56:18.840 use AI it would be community radio stations because they don't have staff they don't have

00:56:24.480 the necessary funds but it doesn't it's not consistent when we see that others can benefit

00:56:32.460 from subsidies so this is a real issue we need to maintain our mission those

00:56:38.880 tools are there we can't deny it but we would like to have assistance in that

00:56:43.700 regard a question to everyone for advertising from the federal

00:56:50.420 government the transfer of advertising from traditional media towards digital

00:56:59.140 media since 2019 I've been in this role and since 2019 the same thing has been

00:57:04.720 asked that the government spend less on foreign digital media and more on

00:57:09.160 traditional media the friends of Canadian media have been talking about

00:57:14.640 that for years I'm sorry mr. shampoo but your time is up there's no time for an

00:57:20.520 answer you can answer a little later thank you the next time perhaps you do

00:57:26.140 you now have the floor for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Dunraj, I found your

00:57:33.380 testimony quite fascinating. I was a journalist for myself for 30 years. I was also a national

00:57:41.160 director of the Canadian Association of Journalists. Journalism has indeed changed. You noted that

00:57:47.060 you used to sit down and watch Norton Nash as the voice of, you know, a trusted voice.

00:57:55.220 I also remember Lloyd Robertson as a kid watching him.

00:58:00.120 Peter Kent, Stanley Burke.

00:58:03.720 Ironically, Peter Kent stepped down in 1978 after criticizing political interference from the Liberal Prime Minister.

00:58:13.780 So the CBC does talk about being diverse, inclusive, fair and balanced.

00:58:21.980 Yet one of the CBC's premier segments is something called At Issue, which features Toronto Star journalist Chantal Ebert, Athea Raj, and Globe and Mail journalist Andrew Coyne.

00:58:37.940 In what universe is this diverse, fair, or balanced as a news panel?

00:58:44.060 well i i mean the the national uh makes their own decisions i suppose in terms of uh who who they

00:58:53.560 put on that that panel uh you know and it's rosie's panel so uh miss barton's panel so i i guess

00:59:01.080 you know you can have to you can have to talk to her about the editorial decisions but you know

00:59:05.400 what i was attempting to do on this program was have that diversity of opinion and you know when

00:59:11.780 they canceled the panel I sent in a note to panelists asking for feedback and I was disciplined

00:59:18.420 for that and I just want to talk about this NDA that I got because it's important because I was

00:59:25.780 raising concerns about editorial and and I was slapped with and this NDA here which is a practice

00:59:32.740 that the CVC is using frequently which was raised by Dave Seglins and you guys all have the paper

00:59:39.780 However, Dan Resch has considered whether he has a human rights complaint with respect to the issues in dispute, and by his signature below confirms that he does not.

00:59:49.980 Further, he confirms that he seeks no right or remedy under the Canadian Human Rights Act as amended with respect to the issues in dispute, and any such claim is barred by this agreement.

01:00:01.920 That should be shocking to every member on this committee.

01:00:05.040 And I hope that other members on the committee take an interest in terms of the issues that I'm outlining here.

01:00:13.040 Because it is very important.

01:00:14.160 We should not have a public institution silencing their own employees and having them waive their rights under the Canadian Human Rights Act.

01:00:23.700 That should be shocking.

01:00:26.720 Getting back to the bigger issue of the fairness and balance in news.

01:00:32.760 um you mentioned at one point that uh cbc management actually prevented you from

01:00:39.580 interviewing conservative conservative leader pierre paulia on your show can you describe

01:00:44.400 what happened there yeah well we i i mean i basically wasn't allowed to pick up the phone

01:00:49.180 and and talk to uh conservatives i have some g chats here which i just want to you know read

01:00:57.340 you part of this. I'm talking to my senior producer. I'm saying, okay, this is an editorial

01:01:03.460 discussion. Can we get a conservative perspective on this is essentially what I'm saying. It is a

01:01:09.000 no to the conservatives, I'm told. We can't chase anyone from the entire party. The chase is with

01:01:14.780 PNP. So if Power in Politics is not able to secure a conservative or somebody that presents

01:01:23.320 an alternate perspective then we are not allowed to i'm told at one point we're sure that there's

01:01:28.840 a myriad of other types of interesting guests that you can chase outside of the conservatives

01:01:33.640 uh can i be included on conversations with power and politics that's not how we work

01:01:39.400 i say to uh to management by playing petty office politics we feed into conservative narratives

01:01:46.680 that we have a bias against them canada tonight is a melting pot of news of the day and politics

01:01:51.800 and decisions from it largely impact Canadians.

01:01:56.400 So we need flexibility to respond to emerging stories.

01:02:01.040 So yes, I wasn't even allowed to pick up the phone

01:02:04.040 and call to request Pierre Polyev.

01:02:07.220 Look at what happened when I had Melissa Lantzman

01:02:09.280 on my show, right?

01:02:10.980 I was threatened to be pulled off the air,

01:02:12.680 which CBC then said in a news statement

01:02:14.420 they didn't threaten to do that.

01:02:15.660 There were recordings of them trying to do this.

01:02:18.960 Why do you think they were doing that?

01:02:21.800 I mean, there's an effort to essentially protect those in Ottawa in terms of their perspectives on these things, in terms of who they want on the show.

01:02:35.600 It should be about, you know, we did an interview with Karen Johnson, my co-host on the new podcast I'm doing.

01:02:41.940 It is out right now.

01:02:43.060 She's another former CBC employee that is talking about the toxic culture.

01:02:47.820 She said that she alleges that she was called a brown Barbie, a bimbo.

01:02:53.240 But she says that it's a very high school culture.

01:02:57.060 And these are things that this is fine.

01:02:59.300 If you have hosts doing that, it's not fine.

01:03:03.240 But OK, but management, you are responsible for dealing with it.

01:03:08.280 And so if management is not going to do anything, if the president of the CBC is going to come

01:03:15.380 here and expect a tongue lashing and then be able to go back to the CBC and continue to get funding

01:03:21.720 without accountability. These practices will continue. So shame is clearly not enough to get

01:03:29.280 the CBC to a place where they will hold themselves accountable. So it's incumbent

01:03:34.680 upon this committee to do that. Ms. Royer, you have the floor now for five minutes. Go ahead.

01:03:41.040 I'd like to begin by welcoming witnesses from my community, Janice Clue and Mario Bartel

01:03:50.540 of Fresh It News.

01:03:52.620 Thank you both for your decades of service.

01:03:56.060 When Glacier Media's Tri-City News closed last year, it was a devastating loss for our

01:04:02.040 riding of Port Moody, Coquitlam, and I'm extremely grateful that veteran reporters like yourselves

01:04:07.880 I'm sorry, Ms. Royer, your audio is a little low for the interpreters. I'm hearing that

01:04:15.200 they are having trouble hearing you. Can you try moving your boom closer to your mouth

01:04:20.020 and see if that's any better?

01:04:23.840 Is that better? Madame Chair, is that better? 0.92

01:04:30.880 Yeah, I think it's better. Just keep that boom close to your mouth.

01:04:37.520 just sounded that you were a bit far away i'll keep it close and is that um are we going to start

01:04:43.360 the clock from the beginning no you can have your time back okay great thank you thank you thank you

01:04:50.160 okay merci madam chair i'd like to begin by welcoming witnesses from my community janice

01:04:56.320 clue and mario bartell a fresh no i'm sorry ms roy the audio is not getting it oh no okay

01:05:07.520 let me just check the connection i'm going to suspend for a minute while we try and work this

01:05:16.240 Okay, merci.

01:05:46.240 Thank you.

01:06:16.240 Thank you.

01:06:46.240 Thank you.

01:07:16.240 Thank you.

01:07:46.240 We do not have good sound

01:08:16.040 from Ms. Royer. So instead, I'm going to pass the parole to Mr. Tumba.

01:08:25.480 The floor goes to Mr. Tumba for five minutes, starting now.

01:08:33.320 Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

01:08:38.280 Excuse me. It won't be long.

01:08:46.040 I'll start with Ms. Carrero. Thank you for your presentation. I think my colleague Férez

01:08:59.800 raised the point earlier. I'd like to hear you tell us about, well, community media outlets

01:09:09.120 ask for advertising how much can that help radio stations can survive well in fact as i was saying

01:09:19.200 earlier there's a subsidy that's received but it doesn't cover this the salary or barely of

01:09:28.080 one employee for a radio station so community radio stations have to be creative and find

01:09:34.640 other ways and advertising revenue are one of those ways to make up for that shortfall

01:09:42.240 there are also other ways of proceeding community radio stations have bingos for example

01:09:49.920 that helps with funding as well so these are ways to address a need

01:09:58.320 that isn't covered by subsidies so it's something very important and has always

01:10:04.240 served the model of these media outlets. That's how they operated for a long time. It's nothing new.

01:10:12.720 So it's a loss from recent years and that's why we're really calling for a return

01:10:18.320 of that advertising revenue. Thank you Ms. Carrero. Mr. Batel, Ms. Klu,

01:10:28.240 what you experienced last year, I don't know how to describe it.

01:10:33.360 But you are a model of resilience in the face of challenges, because despite what you went through, you came back and we can tell you love media, you love your work.

01:10:46.340 My question is, when you talk about having bigger donations, do you have like a number in mind in terms of funding?

01:10:57.140 well we did we did launch a founders club that allowed people to donate a thousand dollars a

01:11:06.240 minimum thousand dollars um and we recognize them in in ads in our newspaper house ads in our

01:11:11.860 newspaper and and uh we're we that the campaign didn't really get going as well strongly as we

01:11:18.680 wanted to because we kept running into roadblocks with trying to issue tax receipts we're not a

01:11:22.720 charity and a few efforts we did try would have run afoul of CRA and we didn't want to do that

01:11:28.340 we didn't want to run do anything illegal or that would come back and bite us so we don't know I

01:11:34.400 mean we you know we got some support from our union and some other groups that did step up

01:11:40.940 selflessly and say you know we believe in this too this is important this is important for our

01:11:45.220 community but you know we don't know what kind of potential is out there if we don't have some of

01:11:51.380 these tools available to us like being able to issue tax receipts and that and you know we spend

01:11:57.500 a lot of time trying to investigate things my colleague here janice has spent a lot of time

01:12:01.000 writing grant applications and and as we said it's it's often fitting a square peg into a round

01:12:06.760 hole where we're trying to get grants as as cultural or as institutions things like that that

01:12:12.360 that we kind of fit into but it all depends on how you look at it uh so it's it's it's a lot of

01:12:18.700 a lot of effort to find money wherever we can to try and give us that foundation that we can build

01:12:25.700 upon. I listened to your opening remarks. You want Canadian media, you want the government of Canada

01:12:39.840 to consider them. Do you think some media outlets are not taken into account by the government of

01:12:47.500 Canada what would be your proposal to move forward last year I think the

01:12:57.460 government spent about 75 million dollars on advertising but for all of

01:13:10.180 newspapers of canada it's less than two million dollars

01:13:18.340 for la presse in montreal when la presse has a campaign

01:13:25.060 or let's say a big canadian bank had a campaign a campaign in quebec la presse

01:13:34.340 did okay with ads but the government gives them nearly zero we are a great

01:13:46.700 avenue to reach Canadians but the agency of record means that it's more

01:14:01.240 profitable and these are programming ads like with google thank you now the floor to mr shampoo for

01:14:10.280 two and a half minutes i'll talk to the friends of canadian media i was asking a question about

01:14:17.000 the recurrent call and it's not just from you it's from all media owned in canada the government is

01:14:24.280 disinvesting in traditional media and investing in online platforms which are all owned by foreign

01:14:32.920 companies so do you think at some point the government will understand that part of the

01:14:39.640 survival of our media depends on advertising by government regardless of the level but here we're

01:14:45.560 talking about the federal government which spends a lot of money on digital platforms compared

01:14:51.080 to what it spends on traditional media. What is your position? Do you think we need to continue

01:14:55.880 and be even louder on this? I think there's two steps the federal government could take. First

01:15:01.320 of all, as we said in our opening remarks, if they allocated even 25% of their annual revenue,

01:15:06.520 their annual advertising revenue, a budget to publishers and broadcasters, that would have a

01:15:11.560 substantial effect. Even a relatively small diversion of internet advertising revenue to

01:15:17.960 canadian news media would be hugely beneficial to these entities over and above that as you

01:15:22.280 mentioned earlier the advertising deductibility issue has been something that friends has been

01:15:26.040 raising for countless years we issued a report in 2017 2018 called close the loophole i encourage

01:15:32.040 everyone in the room and on the committee to to google the report and listen to it um this has

01:15:36.680 been a long-standing issue we think it's a simple clean easy measure that has a very successful

01:15:41.240 precedent and traditional advertising would actually raise money for government rather than

01:15:45.160 cost money and we haven't really seen any serious arguments against it um and quite frankly it the

01:15:51.720 precedent has been in place since the 1960s we think it would continue to be effective

01:15:59.880 what would this be for community radio stations it's a matter of survival for how many of your

01:16:04.280 members in your view all of them all of them i'll say it again subsidies don't allow for their

01:16:12.840 survival it's advertising revenue to a greater degree and there have been election campaigns we

01:16:19.960 saw it last year from the federal government there was nearly nothing that was invested nothing was

01:16:25.960 invested in local media and yet the message would really have gotten through but it's necessary for

01:16:33.960 all radio stations thank you very much i imagine it would be the same thing for written media

01:16:39.720 weeklies are affected by this as well yes in ontario the government of premier for the

01:16:47.080 conservatives give 25 percent of their advertising budget to media thank you you have the floor now

01:16:56.360 for five minutes thank you um mr downage i'm just curious in your other remarks or your previous

01:17:05.240 remarks i should say sorry you mentioned that there was a black list of i think you said 45

01:17:09.560 people who were not permitted to appear on the cbc um and that this list came down from management

01:17:15.160 would would you be willing to table that list with committee today yes okay thank you um mr

01:17:20.920 danage i'm curious during during your time or do you have knowledge of the pmo the prime minister's

01:17:27.640 office ever talking to the cbc with regard to how a news angle should be covered or taken or

01:17:35.240 content that should be reported on? I know concerns were raised. I know concerns were raised

01:17:43.580 from people that were on power and politics. I have documentation related to those concerns being

01:17:52.340 raised. And I know that the, you know, the folks that raised these concerns, they're fearful of,

01:18:01.320 you know, exactly the same thing that all these other folks are fearful of, right? Professional

01:18:05.200 reprisal. But I also know that this was raised repeatedly. And whether or not there was influence

01:18:13.020 from the former prime minister's office in terms of editorial decisions that were being made on

01:18:19.560 power and politics or not, even the allegation of that on its face needs to be investigated.

01:18:26.900 And from my understanding, and CBC can put out a statement correcting me if I'm wrong on this,

01:18:33.140 I don't think that there was ever an investigation. That is a serious concern, right? I mean, if there are repeated, you know, allegations made about perhaps there's too much influence here.

01:18:48.740 Now, let me just say this as well. I was a reporter in Ottawa. I've been at Queen's Park. I was the Queen's Park Bureau Chief for Global. Reporters have sources. We all know that. But there's a line where that leads into editorial decision making. And you have to make sure that that is clear. And if there's even an allegation that that may have been crossed, you have to look deeper.

01:19:14.460 I guess to that end, then, we know that public trust for the media in general is on the decline.

01:19:22.840 We know that that is true with the CBC. There's no exception there.

01:19:26.400 In your mind, then, you know, is that lack of trust justified?

01:19:32.180 I think that right now, the CBC, by continuing to put out statements and to come to these committees and say, yeah, you know, we might have a little bit of a problem.

01:19:41.600 but you know overall we're not biased that's gaslighting Canadians Canadians can see that

01:19:49.380 this is an issue right and and this is you know folks have accused me of coming here being a

01:19:56.060 cheerleader for the Conservatives I am not a cheerleader for the Conservatives I'm sorry

01:20:00.920 I'm not a cheerleader for the Liberals either I was trying to do my job as a journalist and part

01:20:06.940 of that is being balanced. And so when you have, you know, when I was pulled into these disciplinary

01:20:12.820 meetings, I was told that it was editorializing because I put that Catherine Tate wouldn't come

01:20:17.100 on the program and it's unfortunate. This is unfortunate, was editorializing, right? And it

01:20:23.020 was perceived bias. There's a lot of perceived bias going on that I don't see any discipline

01:20:30.680 around so i think cbc needs to have uh you know a wake-up call here in terms of accountability

01:20:38.840 uh and really that's incumbent upon this committee i have made recommendations there are 11

01:20:44.600 recommendations in terms of how to uh you know move some of this forward when it came to mr

01:20:50.840 cochran you know this is during the convoy for example we were talking about tamara litch who 0.90

01:20:57.080 was an individual who was involved in the convoy having that we were doing a story around that

01:21:01.560 uh and you know off the hand marks remarks can be made at times uh and i said i think that she has

01:21:07.960 uh a couple of different last names people who live in trailers usually do you know okay off

01:21:15.560 color remark but if this is a pattern right you have to if your staff on your own show

01:21:22.680 are raising this if people are leaving the program you have to look a little bit deeper into it

01:21:30.120 as opposed to pulling me off the air for saying it's unfortunate the president didn't come on

01:21:34.760 the show so the canadian public is paying for this to the tune of about 1.4 billion dollars

01:21:40.440 and then of course the government also increased that by an additional 150 million dollars

01:21:45.400 at the end of the day then the public is the shareholder and also the ones that are supposed

01:21:49.320 to be benefiting from this news coverage in your estimation what changes are needed to actually

01:21:53.720 restore that trust i think that there needs to be an overhaul when it comes to management i've

01:21:58.680 you know you have my specific recommendations but i will also say this i am not here as somebody who

01:22:04.200 does not believe in public broadcasting i was on jonavision i started as an audience coordinator

01:22:09.800 when i was 19 years old at the cbc i worked on the air force i worked on the red green show

01:22:14.600 i then left i came back i worked at cbc edmonton i worked at cbc toronto left came back again i took

01:22:21.880 a pay cut to come back to the cbc i used to walk around the cbc broadcast center when i was 19

01:22:27.960 years old and sneak into the newsroom and i thought this is this i want to be at this place at some

01:22:32.840 point this is the heart of this building the news organization and and it has gotten so far away

01:22:40.600 from what it was, the CBC should not be a polarizing force. It needs to bring Canadians

01:22:48.380 together, and it has the infrastructure to be able to do that. But until there's a recognition

01:22:54.400 of the problem from management, nothing will happen. And they fail to recognize this. I am

01:23:01.680 willing, I would be willing to sit down tomorrow with the new president to talk about some of this

01:23:06.520 stuff right but good people are leaving they're being forced out and and their concerns are being

01:23:13.660 dismissed because it's about protecting reputation well here's you know some news i don't have to

01:23:20.920 be wanting to destroy the cbc because management and executives are doing a great job of that on

01:23:26.440 their own thank you uh we're gonna try one more time with ms roy to see if we have sound now that

01:23:34.020 have a new headset you have the floor for five minutes fingers crossed okay excellent excellent

01:23:39.780 so i'd like to begin by welcoming witnesses from my community and that is chanis clue and mario

01:23:45.140 bartell of freshet news and i want to thank you both for your decades of service and of course

01:23:52.020 when glacier media's tri-city news closed last year it was a devastating loss for our riding

01:23:58.100 of port moody coquitlam and why is this because democracy only works when citizens can see the

01:24:06.500 truth clearly and that requires strong independent journalism so that voters can make informed

01:24:12.100 choices and hold leaders accountable janice in your own words you actually said that this is

01:24:17.300 dangerous so this brings me to the matter of journalistic integrity and the journalist code

01:24:23.140 of ethics and i'd like to really drill down if i could with uh with you and mario so with the

01:24:28.420 advent of podcasts and online news there's a great deal of misinformation how refreshing

01:24:33.460 journalists trained and is that the norm i was trained in britain under a program called the nctj

01:24:43.700 national council training of journalists there's a standardized curriculum in colleges and

01:24:49.460 universities in Britain you do a year program and take legal courses

01:24:57.260 municipal government courses shorthand you then go out in the field for 18

01:25:02.060 months and then we all write a national exam in the end we don't have this in

01:25:05.680 Canada we need this in Canada it's similar to a trade like Red Seal and it

01:25:11.780 would help with municipalities that are struggling with reporters who call

01:25:17.400 themselves reporters and they're not professionally trained it would help

01:25:21.300 the municipalities figure out who should be at the table who should be at the

01:25:25.560 media table hmm okay got it can you can we drill down a little bit further and

01:25:33.180 speak to the core principles so what really are the core principles of the

01:25:37.840 code of ethics for journalists what are the what are the pillars well you try to

01:25:43.860 balanced you try to give both sides of an issue you you try to uh give a fair representation of

01:25:50.980 you know when we cover city council you you try to give a fair representation of the the concerns

01:25:56.100 that were raised and and and how they were raised so that when readers read how a decision came to

01:26:02.180 be they they have some knowledge as to what what uh what some of the downfalls might be what some

01:26:07.940 of the advantages might be uh and you just sort of you report you don't interpret you report

01:26:16.580 i'm i'm actually understanding that um yeah just just what you said mario that

01:26:21.620 accuracy and verification are absolutely key multiple sources um that there needs to be um

01:26:29.780 journalists themselves need to be free from conflicts of interest and there can't be any

01:26:34.580 exchange of gifts or favors um there is a a high level of accountability and transparency can you

01:26:42.500 speak to uh some of these these principles and how you report um and and also avoiding

01:26:49.780 bias how you bring that into fresh at news well i think i think we we do as we've always done we

01:26:58.820 we stand apart. We don't try and cultivate friendships or favor with anybody. We go in

01:27:07.060 there and we go in with a fresh mind as to what is being discussed, what the issues are.

01:27:13.440 And, you know, you give a fair ear to all sides and report accordingly.

01:27:19.420 i know that there was a gap between the closure of tri-city news glacier media and freshet opening

01:27:30.380 and of course the closure happened just ahead of the election what do you feel the impact was

01:27:36.220 on the electorate in making decisions in in the lead up to the election what what actually happened

01:27:42.620 It said in the opening, as we had said in the opening, we couldn't cover candidates and the readers were lost.

01:27:53.620 They didn't know who to vote for. They didn't know where to go. And again, it was very dangerous to democracy.

01:28:01.200 So having corporate media pull out in the middle of the federal election was devastating to our readers and to the advertisers and to the candidates.

01:28:11.520 Well, in a normal news cycle, too, we would be there covering all candidates meetings and bringing, you know, bringing readers who were there.

01:28:19.440 We're kind of the proxy for people who don't go, but still may be interested.

01:28:23.220 They may not be interested in sitting around for two hours and at a meeting or they just weren't able to go.

01:28:27.800 So we're the proxy. That's how we see ourselves. Same city council, anything we cover.

01:28:31.360 We're kind of the proxy for the public.

01:28:33.200 so when you uh are able to give a flavor for for a candidate and and what they said and the the

01:28:39.680 issues that were raised by by people at all candidates meetings that's that's bringing

01:28:43.520 information to to the larger public as well and and uh hopefully that then informs everybody a

01:28:49.520 little bit better about when it when it comes to marking their ballot which which way they're going

01:28:53.680 to go we also cover a very large we also cover well and i noticed that there was a prevalence

01:28:59.680 of other sort of freelancers journalists that we've never heard of before that were sort of

01:29:04.960 taking up the space in the news desert and I think people were then tuning into that because

01:29:10.400 they were hungry I think the electorate is particularly hungry for um this is all the

01:29:15.120 time we have for this question I'm sorry but I really appreciate that you make the point that

01:29:21.520 journalists have to be in the room at the school board meetings and at the city halls and in the

01:29:26.880 courtrooms. And when people say AI can take over the job of journalism, I think they don't understand

01:29:32.880 what journalism has done because AI can't be in those rooms. Mrs. Thomas, you now have the floor

01:29:38.800 for five minutes. Awesome. I'm going to ask one quick question and pass it off to my colleague.

01:29:43.280 My question is for Mike, Mr. Kittleman, or your colleagues. And my question is this,

01:29:50.160 you made a statement with regards to linking the safety and security of the Jewish community here

01:29:54.240 in Canada to biased coverage from the news media and I would like you to take a moment and just

01:29:59.920 expand on that in terms of the consequences that are that are there sure so you cut out there for

01:30:04.320 a sec uh I'll speak to a bit of a portion then I'm going to hand off to my colleagues on zoom

01:30:08.880 as well the first thing is what's reported today becomes domestic and foreign policy tomorrow

01:30:13.840 and uh and I echo Mr. Dan Raj's comments about a very let's call it a jaundiced marketplace of

01:30:21.280 ideas. What we have seen in the past couple of years, most certainly as it relates to the CBC,

01:30:26.320 is the elevation of radical voices, giving them a platform, giving them undue legitimacy,

01:30:33.280 which we feel really does serve to elevate the fringe and marginal voices who are traditionally,

01:30:41.440 you know, again on the fringe trying to work their way into the mainstream, and then it serves

01:30:45.680 fundamentally to fan the flames of hatred against Israel and the Jewish community. More specifically,

01:30:51.280 HR Canada Charitable Organization and InnoHives did a long-term two-year study on the Hamas-Israel

01:30:58.660 war, which found that there was this asymmetry in the CBC's coverage, most specifically that

01:31:05.340 it elevated radical voices like Independent Jewish Voices, which is a radical anti-Zionist

01:31:11.300 hate group. And giving them this platform, again, it bestows this kind of credibility,

01:31:16.580 which they don't deserve but um i'll allow dr haran shanarkis and amanda eskenazi

01:31:22.900 to speak in more detail about their work

01:31:29.540 um so i'll just say briefly first of all thank you and thank you mike can you hear me right

01:31:36.740 hopefully okay um so i'm here as a scientist um and if there are any questions about the research

01:31:44.980 we conducted i'm happy to answer i'll just say that taking into account the asymmetry that's

01:31:51.220 already inherited in the israeli gaza war um we found some very troubling evidence showing for

01:31:57.700 example how the cbc is using headlines in order to promote one side of the story um

01:32:05.620 such that even when you compare that to the actual reporting by the cbc

01:32:09.780 Madame Chair, there's an issue with the audio. The interpreters are struggling to interpret.

01:32:17.780 I'm sorry, we don't have good sound for your intervention there.

01:32:23.780 Is that better right now? Or if not, maybe Amanda can take that? 0.99

01:32:29.780 I'm sorry, no.

01:32:32.780 OK. OK, maybe I can try to speak to this then and just sort of offer one final thought on this that, you know, my colleague Haran is a scientist and he deals with data and numbers and, you know, objective truth.

01:32:49.260 I'm also a scientist but a different kind of a social scientist and I look at behavior and trends and sort of human behavior and how people react to what it is that they see in the news and and what they are presented with.

01:33:04.260 And when we have a organization like the CBC, which is a Canadian institution that is supposed to be well-respected, has a history in our country of being the place where you are supposed to be able to get real honest news about what's going on in the world, and they are beating a very one-sided drum, a very one-sided narrative.

01:33:29.920 And that's what's being offered to Canadians. Of course, Canadians are going to be angry, they're going to be upset. Because what they're being told the reality is, is upsetting and angering. And when you only present one side of what is going on, you end up with a very ideologically, you end up with an ideology, you don't end up with reality, and with the facts.

01:33:59.540 And so I think when you are feeding Canadians, the CBC is not telling Canadians

01:34:08.900 how to think about an issue. They're showing Canadians what to think about the issue.

01:34:14.020 And that should not be the role of our public broadcaster. And to just return it to your

01:34:20.580 question, Mrs. Thomas, that if you have consistently one-sided narratives like this,

01:34:27.780 of course you are going to have people who feel that they need to do something about it

01:34:31.700 and when we have one-sided narratives that demonize an entire group of people because

01:34:36.420 that's what's happening then of course you are going to have people who are angry about that

01:34:40.500 and feel that they need to do something about that and that unfortunately is what we're seeing

01:34:45.140 on the streets in canada right now and what we saw this weekend in toronto

01:34:49.380 thank you mr miles you now have the floor for five minutes great thank you very much and thank you to

01:34:59.380 everybody for being here today and and uh getting this study started off in a very lively way um i

01:35:05.780 want to talk i think we're all very interested in making sure that there's a diversity voices

01:35:10.340 in journalism and that's what makes great journalism one thing i'm curious about is the

01:35:14.900 right balance you know well how we can create an ecosystem where the private broadcasters and

01:35:20.320 and journalists thrive as well as a public broadcaster like what the balance looks like

01:35:25.440 especially in rural communities i find that one thing and i think it speaks to what's been

01:35:30.060 mentioned is is that often rural voices are not actually particularly as more and more newspapers

01:35:36.100 in small towns close more and more radio stations in small towns close how do we make sure that

01:35:43.380 things aren't centralized just in the cities of Canada, but the voices of rural Canadians

01:35:47.740 are also part of all the conversations we're having. Maybe I'll start with Paul to speak

01:35:53.960 about that, if you get some thoughts. So much. I think one of the programs that's important for

01:36:00.660 Rural Voices is the Local Journalism Initiative. You know, many of our members would be a couple,

01:36:07.720 let's say perhaps in their mid-70s, they own the local community newspaper, their kids have moved

01:36:14.180 to the city or doing something else. And the LJI is a way of getting a reporter into that community,

01:36:22.220 invested in that community, you know, covering cops, courts, city hall, that kind of stuff. So

01:36:28.200 I think the LJI in terms of the rural coverage is absolutely critical. One thing I will say about

01:36:35.800 the CBC, and this is an issue in particular in rural communities. CBC has been poaching

01:36:42.260 journalists from community newspapers, and this is a problem. There's a terrific column written

01:36:49.180 by Tim Schultz of the St. Albert Gazette, and I think you should all read it. It's in his own

01:36:53.920 paper, and it's also in the National Post. But take a look at that. I mean, we are losing

01:36:59.100 journalists to the CBC. They're getting more money, better benefits, and listen, we don't

01:37:05.200 begrudge the CBC, but I'll give you just one example. Jeff LG, who's an entrepreneur who owns

01:37:10.420 Village Media, Jeff trained a journalist. The journalist was hired by the CBC, went to Toronto.

01:37:16.680 Jeff sort of felt okay about that. The journalist is in Toronto for a while. Then they moved that

01:37:22.020 same journalist back to the Sioux competing with him, and he trained that journalist. And that's

01:37:27.500 a real issue. It's an issue in Franco-Manitoban communities, for example. This is an issue that

01:37:33.920 you know, we're very concerned about is, is the poaching of talent. And again, you know,

01:37:38.080 it's a free labor market, but to actually go after and pick off people from community newspapers

01:37:43.680 in communities like Banff, it's just not fair. I think that's, it's, you know, part of what I'm

01:37:51.020 looking to get at too, is it's some of those, those places of like that, you know, conflict

01:37:56.060 or whatever between the two sectors and how we can actually seek to support both in the ideal

01:38:01.300 world and to make sure that those voices are not particularly in the rural communities not uh

01:38:05.860 dismissed um are there others

01:38:11.300 i mean i i think you know one of the challenges that we've got is uh canada post um and just in

01:38:18.100 terms of sort of you know distribution so a lot of our members there these are a printed product

01:38:23.460 a community newspaper canada post has made a decision that if you have a canadian tire flyer

01:38:31.060 in your newspaper it falls under something called the consumer's choice program so if

01:38:36.420 a community says for example i don't want junk mail essentially then you're not able to deliver

01:38:42.180 that you know newspaper to the community with a canadian tire flyer and the canadian tire flyer

01:38:48.100 you know that might be for that particular publisher seventy five thousand dollars a year

01:38:52.020 in revenue that's two reporters so i think there's lots that the federal government can do

01:38:57.780 to ensure that um that you know rural community news outlets uh thrive and you know the cbc is

01:39:05.540 one avenue canada post is another um are you encouraged at all by the idea of cbc moving

01:39:12.100 into rural communities and broadening the base of of some of their stations look our our view is

01:39:16.820 cbc should be complementary not competitive and and if they move into communities that are already

01:39:22.740 well-served, that's an issue. They should move to areas that aren't served. And when you look at

01:39:30.060 the list that the CBC put forward in the editor's blog, they've done it twice in the last year or

01:39:36.940 so. Many of these communities are already well-served by community newspapers, community

01:39:43.440 radio stations. And so I think that's something we have to look at. They shouldn't be sort of

01:39:48.280 predatory in the marketplace if you will very very good um i had just one quick question on ad if i

01:39:54.120 have a couple of times a little bit of time just i just speaking with the ad thing when you're

01:39:58.520 saying i'm curious to know when you say private enterprise is actually kind of bought into local

01:40:03.560 advertising even more than the government what motivates that because we're a great way of

01:40:08.840 reaching canada 36 percent of canadians read newspaper content each week uh you know when

01:40:14.440 when you advertise in a community newspaper,

01:40:17.260 it's in a brand safe environment.

01:40:19.200 Some of these digital ads you do,

01:40:20.500 you have no idea where your ad is gonna wind up

01:40:22.560 on some porn site or something or other, right?

01:40:25.040 So we're a great way to reach Canadians.

01:40:28.600 We're cost effective.

01:40:30.260 And if we're getting ads from the banks,

01:40:35.260 the airlines, the telcos, et cetera,

01:40:37.440 how come we're not getting ads from our own government?

01:40:39.740 All of the federally regulated industries,

01:40:41.600 grocery stores they all advertise with newspapers and yet we don't really see a

01:40:46.520 dime from the federal government that's that's a problem sector oh sorry thank

01:40:53.420 you thank you I gave you a bit of leeway there but there's a there's a limit

01:40:58.700 mr. shampoo I will give you the floor for two and a half minutes thank you

01:41:05.160 Madam Chair, Mr. Fegelman, you surprised me earlier when you talked about radical comments

01:41:14.160 that distort media coverage. You have an organization, Honest Reporting, that looks

01:41:22.300 at the accuracy of reporting with the conflict in Israel against Hamas and now the conflict with

01:41:30.440 Iran and I think that's quite fine to have groups that look at the quality of

01:41:36.200 journalistic coverage with a conflict situation it's even more delicate I

01:41:39.680 think that's good I think it's important but your methods are unacceptable Mr.

01:41:46.100 Feigelman you have a website where you directly attack journalists who have

01:41:52.560 coverage work that does not please you and that to me I don't understand how

01:41:59.660 you call yourself someone who looks at the quality of coverage when you use

01:42:04.200 methods that look like harassment. Laura Julie Pero, Magdalene Butros are 1.00

01:42:09.920 targeted on your website. Rather than calling out the coverage that you find

01:42:14.540 not good enough, you attack the work of the journalists and you encourage your

01:42:18.740 supporters to write directly to them and you give them a template to write

01:42:24.220 directly to them. Thousands of emails have been sent to those journalists and

01:42:28.160 and maybe to others, do you think that harassment method of journalists is a constructive way

01:42:35.960 to ensure that coverage of these very important and sensitive issues, do you think that harassment

01:42:42.740 method of journalists is the right one? Do you stand by that? For your question, Mr. Shampoo,

01:42:48.780 if I may answer your question with a question to you, when your constituents contact you with

01:42:54.480 concerns and complaints would you characterize that as harassment not at all my constituents

01:43:03.600 expect that i do the work and they elected me and they have the right to contact me directly

01:43:09.280 you could contact the media that hires these people you could be in touch with the cbc

01:43:16.080 ombudsman that's how it works you don't directly contact the journalist it becomes personal

01:43:20.960 it becomes an attack on the work and often the integrity of the person because you are going

01:43:26.600 after someone who shouldn't be receiving thousands of nonsense emails as politicians we expect this

01:43:35.740 it's part of the job journalists shouldn't be undergoing this so go after elected officials

01:43:42.140 those who manage cbc radio canada la presse le devoir but let journalists do their work

01:43:48.640 and have comments from their bosses.

01:43:52.160 Don't you think that would be the right way to proceed?

01:43:53.680 We regard ourselves as an added layer of editorial oversight.

01:43:58.360 In a world where we're hearing of massive cutbacks in the Canadian journalism landscape,

01:44:04.520 where there's less verification, we found that actually most journalists value the work that we do

01:44:10.920 because we're, that may surprise you, because we're pointing out the unfairness.

01:44:16.220 Are you able, because I have very little time left, are you able to provide the names of journalists who support your work, journalists and media, not commentators, credible ones, which journalists support the style of approach you have with journalists regarding the quality of their work?

01:44:40.640 we could have this conversation for a long time i think the chair will interrupt me soon

01:44:44.160 but if you want to respond to what i've just said i would be pleased to read your comments you could

01:44:49.120 write to the committee send all the documents you wish and we can even pick up this conversation you

01:44:54.960 and i afterwards because i think this is a very important issue it's about the credibility of

01:44:59.840 your comments which could be very good in this debate perhaps they can provide that information

01:45:05.920 to the committee if you can come back with those names that mr shampoo has asked for

01:45:12.880 that would be later that we would accept that information because we're out of time quest to go

01:45:19.680 two minutes for each party before we finish this conversation before we get to mr shampoo is that

01:45:24.400 okay everybody okay with that okay mrs thomas you have two minutes

01:45:28.640 I'll be taking this for two minutes. Yeah, Mr. Fegelman, it was very interesting when you said

01:45:39.560 that you indicated that a CDC executive said that the network shouldn't refer to Hamas as

01:45:47.160 a terrorist group, even though the government of Canada has recognized them as a terrorist group

01:45:52.280 since 2002 why should the public be alarmed at this well in the Canada

01:46:00.660 Gazette it is publicly listed that they are a terrorist group their day job is

01:46:05.060 to strap a suicide vest on themselves and with the intent of maiming and

01:46:09.660 murdering innocents when our media sanitized language it effectively

01:46:16.460 legitimizes the actions or at least it distorts people aren't fully aware that

01:46:21.120 what these people do what their intentions are is to wipe israel and jews off the map so it is it 1.00

01:46:28.600 is really misrepresenting the facts on the ground language matters diction matters now your organization

01:46:37.340 did do a deep dive into the coverage that happened um throughout cbc since october the 7th can you

01:46:47.460 just reiterate some of that coverage, and you allege it was highly biased.

01:46:53.740 Well, I'd like to recount a couple of examples of CBC bias that we've come across.

01:46:57.940 The first, on February 16th, CBC Radio Canada's correspondent Elisa Serrett, who was later

01:47:03.300 suspended, uttered an anti-Semitic trope on air when claiming that, and I quote, the Israelis,

01:47:09.480 in fact, the Jews finance a lot of American politics and control a big machine. It's a 0.97

01:47:15.560 clear-cut anti-Semitic trope. CBC continues to use reporters who've expressed radical anti-Israel

01:47:23.120 views. They have a journalist named Sarah Jabakanji, who in 2021 signed an open letter

01:47:29.320 boldly proclaiming that there should be more pro-Palestinian coverage. That's just at the CBC.

01:47:36.940 I would refer you to my colleague, Amanda Eskenazi, who can talk in specifics about

01:47:41.980 some of the results of the study that they did about the CBC's bias.

01:47:48.820 Thank you.

01:47:50.780 I'm sorry, we just have two minutes for everybody.

01:47:53.220 It's a really quick, we call it the lightning round, kind of like a game show.

01:47:57.580 Mr. Miles, you have two minutes.

01:48:00.280 Sure.

01:48:00.660 You know, I think I'll just go right back to Paul because we got a little interrupted.

01:48:03.820 I'm sorry to keep on going back at you, but I just because I'm curious about this advertising piece

01:48:08.580 because I hear you.

01:48:10.520 I hear what you're saying as an opportunity, obviously, to support these, you know, journalists and the work of these papers and broadcasters.

01:48:19.180 But at the same time, there has been a decline in private advertising and newspapers, certainly.

01:48:26.300 That's a fact as well, right?

01:48:28.460 Yeah, absolutely.

01:48:29.800 So just for ballpark numbers, so advertising in Canadian newspapers a dozen years ago would have been about three and a half billion dollars.

01:48:37.840 today it's probably 900 million or so okay so the private sector has also abandoned that that route

01:48:45.500 is it i i wouldn't say abandoned i'd say you know they've they've changed in terms of their uh their

01:48:51.640 spend but we're still doing you know okay in terms of uh a lot of community newspapers i mean if you

01:48:58.780 pick up a community newspaper you're going to see the ad from the chevy dealer you're going to see

01:49:03.080 you know, the ad from the Remax agent, like we, we still do. Okay. It's, but disproportionately,

01:49:09.280 we don't do well with government and in particular with the federal government.

01:49:14.340 That's interesting. And is it because they believe that this is where the eyeballs are,

01:49:17.380 they should go where the eyeballs are? Is that not?

01:49:18.860 So the government has an agency of record, right? And I think this dates back to the sponsorship

01:49:23.120 era or the sponsorship scandal from years ago. So the government has an agency of record that

01:49:28.280 makes the decision. It used to be Cosette. It's now WPP. I think that those firms have done what

01:49:34.680 is easiest and most profitable for them, which is programmatic advertising. Those ads that just

01:49:40.000 sort of pop up everywhere. You develop much more of an impression. If you take out a full-page ad

01:49:47.000 in the Kelly of the Saint-Diosynthe bell exam, you're going to make much more of an impact than

01:49:52.780 little programmatic advertising that pops up okay thank you appreciate you i know there's

01:50:00.140 lots of individual mps advertising in our local media but that's a different budget and i won't

01:50:04.540 get into it uh uh you have the floor mr shampoo two minutes thank you madam chair i didn't know

01:50:13.580 i'd have this additional two minutes i'd feel bad if i didn't give mr fegelman the opportunity to

01:50:18.780 respond to my comments i thought we would continue our conversation by email or otherwise but mr

01:50:25.900 figgelman i'll give you a minute to respond to what i said earlier if you wish if you want to

01:50:31.100 pick up i didn't hear your question when you first asked if you don't mind asking the question forgive

01:50:35.820 me the audio is terrible for me the question i just asked well i'm giving you the opportunity

01:50:43.020 to respond to what i said earlier we ran out of time for you to respond

01:50:52.380 are you having the interpretation into english do you hear the interpretation testing on the

01:50:56.940 english channel we want to make sure that our system is working properly is it that you can't

01:51:03.580 hear or that there's no translation translation english channel if i speak can you hear can you

01:51:11.500 hear the english is the english interpretation coming through is there a problem testing on the

01:51:17.180 english channel one two three testing one two three can you hear me interpretation into english

01:51:26.860 is this working for you can you hear okay ah okay i didn't have my microphone on

01:51:34.540 is it working now is it working better

01:51:36.380 Okay, go ahead, Mr. Shampoo. My question wasn't really a question, Mr. Fegelman. I was giving

01:51:47.260 you the opportunity to respond to what I said earlier. We were interrupted. We ran out of time.

01:51:54.620 So, I am proposing that you respond to my comments for a minute,

01:51:59.180 rather than having this conversation later. I was just giving you the floor to respond.

01:52:06.380 I'll give you an example of some of the dialogue we had in recent days. We filed a complaint with

01:52:12.860 the Globe and Mail to their standards editor because they had published a column that had

01:52:17.900 said that Israel takes Palestinians hostage, which it does not do, which is a violation of

01:52:22.540 international law. We filed the complaint, they received it, they appreciated it, and they took

01:52:28.140 corrective measures to issue a correction. That's the kind of what we consider to be constructive

01:52:33.340 dialogue that is important and i would also say um with your comment about alleged harassment

01:52:39.980 if any of our subscribers we have about 80 000 subscribers from coast to coast

01:52:44.220 if anyone engaged with a member of the media in a way that we felt was unprofessional strident

01:52:51.500 knee-jerk reactionary we would be the very first to either try to um sensitize them to our concerns

01:52:58.540 uh and if they weren't listening and were uncooperative we would take them off our list

01:53:03.260 we don't think that that is helpful we think it's actually quite counterproductive

01:53:11.500 so if journalists told you they were embarrassed they were bothered

01:53:19.500 there's little time but if journalists told you we don't agree with the way you're operating

01:53:25.260 we'd prefer for comments criticism discussion of that nature be done with

01:53:31.920 the editors or the bosses of newsrooms rather than journalists directly you

01:53:37.380 would be open to that you would be open to that dialogue we're certainly open to

01:53:41.820 any kind of dialogue with any different leverage playing the Canadian media

01:53:44.820 landscape our challenge though is what we oftentimes encounter is window

01:53:52.000 addressing of accountability and evasive efforts on in terms of implementation of journalistic

01:53:58.180 standards, meaning we could bring a grievance to a journalist editor, and they may not reply

01:54:04.480 and are totally evasive. And we think that that's quite problematic. So I think there

01:54:09.340 is a necessity for an oversight mechanism. I think, broadly speaking, our goal should

01:54:16.380 be that look like very Canadian response with civic engagement, because I think that's

01:54:20.660 fundamentally constructed that's where we don't agree mr fegelman i think at a certain point we

01:54:26.660 have to accept the processes in place it's not up to journalists or workers who didn't ask to have

01:54:32.340 that relationship just to have that harassment directed at them i think there needs to be a

01:54:37.620 line drawn somewhere and i think the way you proceed with your call to contact journalists

01:54:43.140 directly by email i think you're crossing that line that's my opinion i think on that we can

01:54:48.740 end and we can talk about the motion yes exactly if you wish to begin mr shampoo you can introduce

01:54:58.980 no let's go ahead well we can continue five minutes oh if you'd like we're going to discuss

01:55:05.860 the motion that mr shampoo uh rose earlier today you don't have to leave you can stay to the end

01:55:11.940 but uh we have finished with our questioning of you i hope it was not too onerous we truly

01:55:17.620 appreciate all of your participation and keep in mind that you are welcome to send in any further

01:55:24.100 information or documentation i know mr dan raj you've been asked to supply certain documents to

01:55:29.140 this committee but we can take all of that or if there's something you forgot to say for example

01:55:34.100 don't hesitate to reach out to the committee and we can include all of that in our consideration

01:55:38.580 of our report thank you again mr shampoo thank you madame chair i read the motion earlier so

01:55:46.340 that it would be on the record i just want to give a little bit of context in quebec last week we

01:55:52.660 learned that radio canada had chosen to make available on prime video owned by amazon an

01:56:00.660 american giant which has trouble respecting our laws to give a framework for digital giants that

01:56:09.940 news was a real shock because radio canada's programming will be available on prime video

01:56:17.540 and is not available on two point tv radio canada's platform which should offer

01:56:24.420 all of the chains offered by the public broadcaster

01:56:30.020 so we've seen this in the media people will say it's quebec commentators really emphasize this

01:56:36.660 yes that's true but we've also seen it in la presse and in other media this is something

01:56:41.620 that really shocks people it's stunning i see that they want to reach as many people as possible

01:56:48.660 i understand that they want to be available and we want to have discoverability of content

01:56:54.420 journalistic and cultural content but in our view it's very difficult to justify

01:57:00.260 offering this streaming on an American platform on Prime Video, regardless of the motives,

01:57:08.060 the strategic motives of that decision before it is offered on a platform that is owned in Canada.

01:57:17.780 So that's the purpose of this motion, to invite Ms. Bouchard to come explain the decision to answer

01:57:24.560 questions from parliamentarians so we can understand the decision and understand why

01:57:29.520 quebecers and francophones across canada can't have access to abdi on a canadian platform

01:57:37.840 if not two point tv the platform canadians are already paying for mr janitor

01:57:46.240 we agree with the motion however i would add

01:57:50.960 well, I would give Mr. Shampoo the opportunity to say if it's a good addition or not, but I think

01:58:00.800 it would be good to hear from people who criticize this decision. So journalists, former employees,

01:58:11.480 or programming directors from Abdi, who are very outspoken right now on this in Quebec,

01:58:18.140 this is a decision that has people with their jaws dropped right now because it doesn't make

01:58:26.560 sense. Amazon doesn't distribute through its platforms news. It has cut news that's produced

01:58:35.940 and distributed in Quebec and Canada, especially in French. And now this company is contesting a

01:58:42.180 decision by the government of Canada so regarding the 5% and some witnesses will

01:58:50.580 surely tell us in the coming weeks well it's just inconsistent and I think other

01:58:57.480 people should also have the opportunity to speak not just at Edzio Canada's I

01:59:01.740 don't know if Mr. Shampoo is open to that

01:59:05.360 Next, and then I'll come back.

01:59:09.920 I think it would be worthwhile to have just the CEO alone for this discussion,

01:59:17.720 but if we can add the opportunity to talk about the strategic plan as well of Radio Canada at the same time.

01:59:26.700 This discussion is important, of course, but we could also talk about the strategic plan of Radio Canada.

01:59:33.300 so I would add that as an amendment I want to see if mr. miles is proposing

01:59:44.520 amendment but mr. generator was proposing a friendly amendment earlier for the

01:59:49.680 order of priority I don't know how you want to operate yes this is true mr.

01:59:55.740 that was a friendly amendment i would propose we add a meeting so two meetings two hours each

02:00:11.660 so we could have more witnesses who could be invited does everybody agree with that

02:00:19.180 okay we agree with that to have a second meeting and mr miles do you have another amendment or is

02:00:30.280 it covered no it's an amendment that would say that well it's an amendment to the motion on the

02:00:39.040 first meeting with the CEO of CBC Radio Canada to talk about the strategic plan it's a small

02:00:49.120 amendment I agree with the clerk she can come and talk about anything when she 1.00

02:00:58.540 comes I don't know if it's necessary mr. shampoo mr. shampoo it's a little what I

02:01:11.200 was going to say I agree with adding a meeting if it's the will of the

02:01:14.680 committee to hear from other witnesses on this topic the decision of the and

02:01:20.560 prime video that's what I was going to say to mr. miles once ms bushard is

02:01:23.860 here if we want to ask questions on strategic planning I think that's not

02:01:29.980 even unrelated because maybe this decision is due to strategic planning so

02:01:35.020 it's the same theme I don't think it needs to be added to the motion we don't

02:01:39.520 need to have an amendment on this as long as it's understood that way it's understood that

02:01:46.560 when a witness comes you can ask the questions you wish as long as it's on topic

02:01:57.520 do we need to have a vote madam chair

02:01:59.200 i think there is consensus do we want to talk about a date for witnesses i didn't put a date

02:02:12.640 in the motion on purpose because i think the study we have before us currently is important and we've

02:02:19.520 waited some time however i think it should be the priority after the current study so the

02:02:25.040 first thing we do after the study would be to hold this short two meeting study.

02:02:34.480 I totally agree.

02:02:38.240 We could have split it in two, so we could have had these two meetings, but we can wait.

02:02:44.960 But we would need to ensure that all members here

02:02:48.400 don't ask questions when the CEO is here so really we can cover this outside of our current study

02:02:58.960 because if we start to ask questions on this already well I can't tell others what to do of

02:03:04.180 course well to really try not to confuse the issues

02:03:11.980 maybe the CEO of Radio Canada CBC will talk about this when she comes it might well personally I

02:03:23.200 would have suggested a date to meet with the CEO of CBC Radio Canada and other witnesses as soon

02:03:32.380 as soon as possible to deal with this issue.

02:03:39.380 The two might overlap when she's here.

02:03:55.380 I don't think we can tell members what to ask the witnesses

02:04:02.380 is and they can ask what they want but as was said the the two topics are linked

02:04:12.380 as mr shampoo said i take your point but i don't think we can tell members

02:04:22.120 mr miles as long as it's not something that she comes and then two weeks later she's here again

02:04:31.340 well maybe that would be good for the CEO to come here often but if she comes 0.99

02:04:39.140 as a witness for this study because that's what will happen that it not be

02:04:44.780 because we have other studies too so I totally agree to have her come but if we

02:04:51.400 ask the questions at that point what happens when she comes two weeks later

02:04:56.260 so if you agree I'm flexible it's just to mention that it could be a little

02:05:04.940 strange to have her in once and then it often again and we've already asked the

02:05:12.460 questions on the platform to us and if it gets repetitive it gets repetitive

02:05:16.960 the clerk has heard from the CBC that they are available on April 14th to come

02:05:23.040 on the study that we're in the middle of now um so it's kind of in the middle we could finish

02:05:28.480 the study and be in ready inviting them right back again but that's okay

02:05:37.680 mr janitor i know the vice president did an interview i think it was last week today's

02:05:49.920 tuesday i wouldn't be surprised if radio canada sent someone else than the co but that's not what

02:05:57.140 we want that's the tricky thing we want to have the co come debate this issue because this is

02:06:05.020 a fundamental issue regarding radio canada they receive 1.4 billion dollars and the minister

02:06:13.560 announced potential cuts they receive 1.4 billion dollars a year CBC Radio

02:06:19.860 Canada and Canadians will have to pay 9.99 to have access to a day if they

02:06:28.620 don't have cable and they'll have to go through an American company the issue is

02:06:33.880 why would two point TV and gem not be free in Canada and personally after

02:06:42.360 After paying so much money as a Canadian, I think asking the question to Canadians, it would be pretty clear that they shouldn't have to pay again to have shows that are supposed to be special or to see a show a little bit earlier than it comes out.

02:07:01.120 I think it's absurd.

02:07:03.800 So that question will be raised as well.

02:07:07.040 the two hours with the co is necessary and then other witnesses can ask we can ask them questions

02:07:14.960 on those decisions as well that's important now within the study we're doing we're talking about

02:07:21.520 fairness in media yes it's about fairness at the macro level i think we need to ensure we have a

02:07:28.940 meeting or two, as we've just decided, on just this issue. I understand Mr. Miles' prerogative

02:07:39.580 will invite her and then we'll invite her again. I'd be very surprised if she came twice, three

02:07:45.700 weeks apart. I'd be very surprised because generally speaking, they don't really like to

02:07:53.480 come here especially the CEO so I'm not sure she'll want to come twice so what I

02:08:03.740 would propose is to have a date in the motion for on this specific issue and so

02:08:12.760 we could have a discussion with Radio-Canada I think it will be an

02:08:17.180 invitation after we finish the study but I'll go to mr. shampoo and then mrs.

02:08:22.420 Thomas two things because question period is coming up when we invite it as

02:08:28.120 your candidates always the CEO who comes it's her work it's in her mandate she's 0.71

02:08:35.100 the link between the public broadcaster and the federal government we determined

02:08:39.820 earlier that there would be two meetings after the study underway there won't be

02:08:44.380 any issue with the frequency miss Bouchard will come when she's invited

02:08:49.180 we'll have some flexibility with her busy schedule but I have no doubt that

02:08:53.060 she'll be delighted to come before the committee if we invite her she really

02:08:57.080 likes us well I know she really likes me sure I guess just a quick comment here

02:09:07.040 I think we have no control over what the folks at this committee determined to

02:09:10.980 ask the CEO when she comes obviously the issue that has been brought forward by

02:09:16.780 Mr. Shampoo is a timely one. It's one that matters. And so should folks, you know, wish to ask

02:09:22.800 questions with regard to that, it absolutely 100% relates to the study at hand, which has to do with

02:09:27.340 fairness in the media. And there's a big question around this is the CBC being fair when they're

02:09:32.360 requiring payment on top of tax dollars that have already been extended to them for this type of

02:09:38.140 programming. So I anyways, all that to say, you know, it's it's every everybody here is a duly

02:09:44.580 elected member of parliament and has complete freedom to ask the questions that they feel

02:09:47.280 need to be asked.

02:09:48.280 Agree.

02:09:49.280 And just to be clear, we will be inviting CBC on this study and then when this study

02:09:53.980 is done, we will invite them again on the study that Martin has proposed.

02:09:58.480 So it'll be two different studies when they come for the for this study, they'll be as

02:10:02.860 part of a panel, a wider panel.

02:10:05.060 So it's not like they'll be here on their own anyway.

02:10:07.580 All right.

02:10:08.580 Sorry, go ahead.

02:10:09.580 on that if you read the original motion the minister would come alone for two hours and the

02:10:20.220 ceo would be here for two hours am i mistaken on that yes there was there was an amendment

02:10:28.220 adopted to have the minister alone and then on a panel the ceo of radio canada okay

02:10:39.580 You

Juno News - March 10, 2026

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