Lockdown Stockholm Syndrome
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167.32513
Harmful content
Misogyny
11
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Hate speech
10
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Summary
Coming up, the mainstream media's obsession with lockdowns, one veteran's stand for John A. Macdonald, and a recap on Iran's sham of an election. The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
Transcript
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This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
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Coming up, the mainstream media's obsession with lockdowns,
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Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
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This is the Andrew Lawton Show on True North, Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021.
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I'm not even going to give you the count of how many days into two weeks to flatten the curve are.
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I did it for a little while, not necessarily specific days,
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but I'd say, oh, you know, we're, you know, 57 weeks into two weeks to flatten the curve or whatever.
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And I've had a little bit of what, not lockdown envy, because I'm not envying the lockdown,
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but I guess anti-lockdown envy, seeing other countries around the world that have been reopening,
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people going to beach parties, going to nightclubs, concerts.
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Not that I go to beach parties, nightclubs, or concerts in the before times,
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but I'd like to know that I have the option, which I certainly don't in the province of Ontario.
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And now I'm even getting domestic envy, seeing other provinces that are in the process of opening up.
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Alberta last week announced that it is going to be wide open by Canada Day,
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with just basically no restrictions except for just a couple of very narrow areas like long-term care homes.
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That was how Premier Jason Kenney announced it.
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And then over the weekend, Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe,
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something very similar for Saskatchewan, restriction-free by July 11th.
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And if you look at all of these different jurisdictions, New York,
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which is not the model of how to handle the pandemic,
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New York has said, we hit our vaccination threshold, we're open, we're going restriction-free.
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Well, Ontario had the same number of people with their first doses as New York had with first doses,
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but Ontario was doubling down on the lockdown and continues to do so.
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The best that we might get is, ooh, maybe, just maybe you can get a haircut before July is over in Ontario.
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I mean, I'm long overdue, but that's basically the approach here.
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So even within Canada, you've got provinces that are opening up
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and others that are digging their heels in and saying no.
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And what's worse is that you have people that think this is okay,
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that think this is actually how you are supposed to run things.
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One of the big problems that I see looking around, especially in the mainstream media,
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there's an attitude of, I'm going to call it lockdown Stockholm syndrome.
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People that have now just allowed themselves to be consumed by this mindset
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People who, by the way, have not dealt with the real losses
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that lockdowns have unleashed on people in society.
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People that don't have the elite jobs that let them work from home.
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So the reality is a lot of the people that are cheering for lockdowns
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are the ones that have not had the same lockdown experience
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as a lot of the people that they are trying to govern and lord over.
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And one of the great examples of this is a piece in TVO,
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which is the Ontario provincial version of CBC from one journalist who says,
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But the numbers aren't where we need them to be right now.
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And I'm going to pick on this piece because it encapsulates the attitude
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that we see from a lot of other journalists when they're asking questions.
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Hey, we're opening, like happened with Jason Kenney at his press conference on,
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I think it was Friday, you get reporters that start asking,
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Not, are you sure we're ready to reopen just now?
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And I said months ago that we cannot allow ourselves to adopt a new normal.
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And this is what I fear and what I actually see is happening when we look around us.
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People have internalized this idea, this mentality,
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and they think this is the way a society is supposed to function.
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So Stockholm syndrome is the best way to characterize it.
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People that now have been convinced that government is the dispenser of freedoms
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rather than simply the barrier for you to enjoy your freedoms.
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I sincerely sympathize with businesses that have been closed,
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and even just citizens who want to do the things they would normally be allowed to do.
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You don't need an excuse to want a haircut or a pedicure.
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We are all owed our liberties back as soon as it's safe enough.
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It's the as soon as it's safe enough thing that we're getting stuck on right now.
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these are the points when liberty is most important,
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but also sadly when it is in the shortest supply.
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I'm going to talk in a few moments about the federal court decision
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that came down on Friday about hotel quarantine.
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And then this week, the adjustment to the hotel quarantine plan
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But the reality is you are owed your liberties at any point and at every point.
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because the reality is liberty is not in conflict with safety.
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And anyone who says liberty is in conflict with safety isn't looking at the science,
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and I would argue is not particularly concerned with protecting liberty.
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The pandemic has brought out the worst in a lot of people and continues to.
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And I've been sympathetic about this because I realized that
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this is going to manifest in very different ways for different people.
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But a video that really rubbed me the wrong way
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was this one that went viral over the weekend from a Toronto mall.
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but what you can glean from the video is that a woman was minding her own business,
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Human rights law in Ontario says it's none of anyone's business.
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This lady here is in the mall without a mask.
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Sir, everybody's complaining about her with no mask on.
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And I have to say, kudos to the security guards.
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The security guards did not descend on the woman.
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They were more interested in the guy who was harassing and it looked like could have assaulted
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But if a guy is steamrolling towards you is very angry, you're right to be as anyone concerned
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He is pretending that, you know what, it's dangerous to have her in a mall however many
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And what does he do with this risk, this fear he gets in her face?
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If you believe that an unmasked person is so diseased that they are risking your safety
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and that of everyone around you, you don't walk right in front of them.
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And I hate this culture of just whipping out their phone and trying to harass people
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online because you caught them in a terrible moment.
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And the reason I'm sharing this one is because he was doing it to her.
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He was trying to harass her because for whatever reason, she can't wear a mask.
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And if he doesn't like that, well, you know what?
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He was the only one that had a problem with it.
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But this is what government's responses to COVID have done.
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They have created this culture where you feel like you are a virtuous citizen.
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If you out your neighbor for having people over, if you report someone to police or to
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security for not wearing a mask, if you call the health inspectors or cops on this church
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that you heard something from or this business that you think had opened its doors.
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Of course, I've heard from a number of people, law-abiding citizens who don't have a rebellious
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bone in their body that have completely had enough of this by now.
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And there seem to be three types of people remaining.
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There are those who will follow the rules because they're the rules.
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There are those who will follow the rules and more because they believe in them.
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And then there are those who want to be the self-appointed enforcers of the rules.
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As though what's been missing in this pandemic is enforcement.
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That's what's been missing, these people think.
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People like them to call others out for not behaving the way they do.
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And there are going to be people who, whenever mask mandates are lifted, continue to wear masks.
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There are going to be people who, whenever social distancing measures are restricted,
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And we should be encouraging people to come up with responses to the world around them
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If this woman was trying to get in everyone else's face without wearing a mask,
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I would be on their side to say, hey lady, back off.
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If she is, as the video suggests, minding her own business, keeping her distance,
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and the only people that are getting within her six-foot bubble are those trying to complain
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She's not exhibiting enough in the way of pandemic precautions.
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How are we at all supposed to say that this has anything to do with science at this point?
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People are getting off on control and getting off on power.
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And this permanent emergency is bringing out the worst in this.
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And this is going to continue once the pandemic's over.
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And by the way, I don't even know if it's going to be over.
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I don't think there's going to be a point when Canada says we won.
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We have a few provinces that are doing that, places like Alberta and Saskatchewan.
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But we don't have Justin Trudeau saying it's over now.
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Just this week, the federal government announced it was going to be making amendments to its quarantine
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So as of July 5th at midnight, you no longer have to go to a hotel quarantine if you are fully
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vaccinated and you don't have to do the full 14-day home quarantine if you are fully vaccinated.
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So beyond the obvious problem here, which is that we've now created different classes of
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citizenship, what we also have unfolding at this point is government trying to say that
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it's reopening while doing nothing of the sort.
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So on July 5th, the few people that are able to travel internationally if they're fully
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vaccinated, which has not been an easy feat in Canada if you want to get vaccinated, they're
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not going to have to stay at the hotel for $2,000, the one where in Montreal they don't
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even put the lock on the door and all that jazz.
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And then at the same time, the government has also extended the border shutdown with the
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And then this morning, Bill Blair said this, explaining when the border will open for people
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Discussions are ongoing with provincial territory and international partners with the aim of
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allowing for non-essential travel of fully vaccinated foreign nationals into Canada in
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Bill Blair says it's going to be a matter of months until non-essential travel is permitted
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And what they mean by non-essential travel is someone from Port Huron, Michigan, wanting
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I don't know why you'd want to go to Sarnia for the day.
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But if someone wanted to go to Sarnia for the day, that's what he's talking about there.
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So not weeks, months, which means we're talking about until the fall, until the border reopens.
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And there have been numerous American congressmen and congresswomen that have spoken up about
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The one particularly strong, I won't read it, but you can see in the headline here, he
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called it a load of BS that we are still dealing with a border closure.
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The U.S. would be just as happy to open the floodgates as it has with its air travel.
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This is why Canadians can fly into the U.S.
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They just have to drive back if they've wanted to get out of the hotel quarantine up until
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So this comes just a few days after the Federal Court of Canada ruled that the hotel quarantine
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They did not say in the decision that it doesn't violate rights and freedoms, that it's not
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Yes, it violates your constitutional freedoms and rights.
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This was, I completely admit, not an unsurprising decision.
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I tend to have very low hopes and expectations when it comes to these sorts of things.
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But the brazenness with which the Chief Justice of the Federal Court approached this was something
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This is Chief Justice Paul Crampton, who said that these are sacrifices that people are making
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And in doing so, he said that like times of war and other crises, pandemics call for sacrifices
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If some are unwilling to make such sacrifices and engage in behavior that poses a demonstrated
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risk to the health and safety of others, the principles of fundamental justice will not
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prevent the state from performing its essential function of protecting its citizens from that
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But what he's saying is the flip side of that old quote by Benjamin Franklin, that those
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who would give up some liberty for a bit of safety deserve neither.
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And this is something I talked about on Friday when the decision came down.
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I've had some more time to read through it over the weekend.
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And the dangerous part of all of this is that it completely licenses the government the
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next time an emergency comes around or something they classify as an emergency to impose
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basically any measures and restrictions they want, so long as they say it's about public
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And whether you're talking about the government that's locking people up into hotel gulags when
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they fly into the country, the government that is not allowing people to visit family and
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friends across the border, the guy that's trying to enforce mask mandates in a mall when no
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one is in harm's way, all of these things are going to exist long beyond when they are revoked
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They're going to exist because these are now ingrained in the culture.
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These are now ingrained, these cultural attitudes of snitching, these cultural attitudes of locking
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people down, these cultural attitudes of ticketing those who stand up and say no to this,
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of ticketing protesters of this, all of these things have become internalized by a country
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that doesn't even by and large seem like it wants to reopen.
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And this is one thing that I think shamefully sets Canada apart from other countries around
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Not talking about people in my circles or people listening in to this show, but broadly in Canadian
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society, there seem to be huge swaths of people that do not want to reopen, that are not ready.
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People that essentially are buying what the government's been selling, which is that,
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We tell you when the world can go back to normal.
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And if you look in the United States, if you look in to some extent Alberta, Alberta is a
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It was the people that told the government, no, we're not, we're not being locked down,
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which is why I think Alberta took such a heavy handed approach to enforcement because
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people were saying, we're not having any of this.
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Elsewhere, people seem to be going along for it.
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And this is going to have very significant consequences in Canada whenever something comes
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up, even something as minor as a flu season comes up and people will fall right back into
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what I fear has been the permanently adopted new normal.
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Before we take a break here, I want to just share something with you very exciting.
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You know, if you've been listening to this show for a while that I set out earlier this
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year to go not to every province in Canada, but to travel and talk to a cross section of
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people in many parts of this country who are law abiding gun owners, people that have
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been very directly and very significantly affected by the liberal government's gun bans.
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And I want to share the first trailer, the first sneak peek at footage from this documentary
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project I'm making, Assaulted, Justin Trudeau's War on Gun Owners, which just came out this
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We are closing the market for military grade assault weapons in Canada.
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It really is my identity, it really is my culture, and it's every bit as legitimate as anyone else's
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We're just regular people that go out and have this as part of our being.
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We are not the problem, the guns are not the problem, right?
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It's the public's perception that has become the problem.
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On one hand, I'm literally, I'm going to the Olympics, I get to represent Canada, it is
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one of the greatest privileges that I ever get to do, that I get to wear the maple leaf
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And on the other hand, I'm so devastated that I have no idea if at some point I'm going to
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get thrown in jail because I've missed, I've missed something.
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They actually pulled up, they got out, they had their guns drawn, and it was pretty much
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I opened the front door and they're like, you're under arrest and you need to come with
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In the meantime, got to take a quick break here when we come back, more of The Andrew
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Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
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We have been speaking at great length over recent weeks about the taking down of statues, the
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vandalizing of statues, the denaming of buildings, schools, anything and everything that is named
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after or honors a person in history seems to be fair game.
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People whose greatest sin, perhaps their only sin, is living in an era that is not the current
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one, are finding themselves cancelled posthumously by the mob.
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The one of these that has always disturbed me more than the others is John A. Macdonald.
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He's a man for whom history has, I think, a very favorable legacy and a very positive legacy.
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Whatever the differences are between the 19th century and the 21st century, John A. Macdonald
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was a beacon of progress and he held confederation together against the odds and the Canada we have
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today is in no small part due to his efforts back in the 1860s and beyond.
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And when John A. Macdonald is targeted by the mob, it is particularly disingenuous that a country
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that affords people the right to speak their mind was founded by the guy they're speaking their mind
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And there was a display on the weekend in Kingston on Friday morning in which the city took down
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the statue of John A. Macdonald, not just the former Prime Minister of Canada, but also a
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And in the face of this, two men stood out, men who served this country wearing some military
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insignia, holding Canadian flags, taking a stand for John A. Macdonald at his feet.
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A minority display in Canada, given the landscape of these things, but one that stands out all
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One of these men, Gordon Olke, is a town councillor in nearby Leeds and Thousand Islands.
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So why did you decide to put on your old uniform, carry the flag and stand at Sir John
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It's not a uniform because I retired from the Army in 2013.
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I'm no longer entitled to wear a Canadian Army uniform, but there are certain standards
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we are, as veterans, encouraged to wear at various times, which is your old regimental
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beret with cap badge, the decorations you were awarded for service.
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So I stood as someone who was a soldier at one time.
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And to answer your other question, my friend and I just thought we should do something.
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We thought we should stand and defend Sir John in some way and defend our own heritage in
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Not denying that there was anything that should not be corrected, that there were not issues
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But I don't think one should throw the baby out with the bathwater all the time, which
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It's worth noting that Sir John does not only have a significant place in the history of
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In Kingston, he's a local hero as much as he is a national hero.
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And again, all of that seems insignificant to these people petitioning to have these sorts
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Well, I think there's been a failure in this country in the teaching of history.
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I'm old enough to remember the grade 13 history I took, which was essentially European history,
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which taught me a lot of things which have stood me in very good stead in my career, where
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I went around the world and dealt with other cultures.
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And we took quite, in those days, quite comprehensive history in terms of the sense of development
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of constitutions and the progress of society, you know, from the dark ages or from the classical
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And people follow slogans and fads now and become very emotional about things that are
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And that seems to be a big problem in our society, which I'm not sure how they're going
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A lot of the thrust behind this has been ostensibly, or at least purportedly, under the auspices
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But there isn't really any reconciliation taking place when people go after statues.
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And you had said when we were corresponding earlier and setting this up that it's an inanimate
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Well, what I heard around me in the crowd, I was taunted.
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I didn't hear the other end of the conversation, of course.
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And it may just have been emotional blather of the moment.
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But I heard this woman speaking on a cell phone.
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We should take that plaque they're taking down now and put it on Sir John A's costume, or
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Now, my family happens to be buried five generations within about 40 meters of where Sir John is
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And I'm wondering about future vandalism, future desecration.
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There was that one flash of someone, someone momentarily, even if they weren't serious, did
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entertain the idea of desecrating McDonald's burial site.
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But I was confronted by a young woman who had a coterie of people around her, about four
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And it was one of those social justice warrior types.
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No matter what you say, it's because of your male-white privilege and all this kind of stuff.
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And the police constable, a female, told her, you know, this is enough for now.
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And she seems to need to have to say something to me.
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And eventually, she used the word white supremacist at me.
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But the friend who stood with me on the monument actually heard it and said, no, no.
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Both Gordon and I are trained listeners in our former professions.
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And one of her friends who was with her backed off and said, well, I heard white supreme.
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So she and her friends recoiled very quickly after that.
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But I mean, that speaks to the level of polarization that has been injected into this, undeservingly
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so, that you standing up for a Canadian hero, a Canadian historic figure at the very least,
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at all ends up in the same breath as white supremacy.
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I mean, backtracking or not, that that is even part of the discussion now.
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And that I would say that's probably not a rarity in this, is a sign of just, I think,
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how devoid of sense and historic knowledge a lot of these people that are leading the
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The thing, I think the thing that disturbed me the most is my sense that the council was
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There was a lot of the coaching of threats behind some of the presentations in that, you
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know, the people around the monument now are actually protecting it.
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The sense was, if you don't do what we want, another gang will turn up and there'll be violence
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And I've just sent, I've sent you some documents, perhaps you've just seen them, where you can
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see this reflected in what city staff and councillors reacted to.
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So I'm wondering, you know, you had, and there was a recent, there was a local poll taken,
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We're in favour of keeping the statue, perhaps with some embellishments in terms of contextualising
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But the majority of people around here would seem to want to keep the statue.
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I want to ask about your military service, if I can, Gordon, because when you stand out there
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and are representing yourself as a veteran, you are someone that has done more to stand
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up for Canada and Canadian values, I would argue, than a lot of the people that seem
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to be behind this push to take down the name of John A. McDonald and take down his statues.
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And I was wondering just how you'd respond to that.
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And I know that a lot of people that I've spoken to who have service backgrounds are very
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But at the same time, you've done more, I think, to stand up for Canada and Canadian
00:29:19.700
values than a lot of these people that were cheering for the statue's removal.
00:29:26.360
Well, the first thing I would say is that they have every right to do that.
00:29:29.820
And as a soldier, it was part of my duties to defend their right to do that.
00:29:39.400
I don't happen to agree with what they're doing, but they have the right to do it.
00:29:44.440
And members of the forces are sworn to protect that right.
00:29:49.900
So in that regard, I don't mind that they were doing what they were doing.
00:29:56.040
I mind that city council appeared to have loaded their special working group with people who
00:30:04.980
would be negative and that they took a coward's way out.
00:30:08.940
I think city council should have gone with the first option they had, which was to keep
00:30:12.860
the statue in its place, perhaps modify the pedestal somewhat.
00:30:19.240
And then add thematic items to give it context and to show respect for the other culture that
00:30:31.040
And then there was the other option of taking it down and just stashing it away and whatever.
00:30:36.420
They came up with a third option, which was essentially the second option with a few frills.
00:30:41.740
It was a kind of a sneaky way to show that they were catering to the people like me who
00:30:49.160
wanted to keep the statue, but they really had no intention of doing it.
00:30:56.940
Wherever they would try to put it up again, whether in its original place or someplace else,
00:31:02.920
the same sort of encampment would occur probably.
00:31:06.920
Um, and then they were afraid, I think of the, of the veiled threat that if we didn't
00:31:13.180
do what this group wanted, another group, much less friendly would turn up and take it
00:31:19.000
Well, I, I also sent an email to the, um, mayor asking for my refund of my taxes, uh, for
00:31:27.240
If they're not there to protect me, what do we have them for or, or city property?
00:31:33.280
And the city is no better than so many of the vandals who have, uh, gone around destroying
00:31:39.280
The difference is that the city has, of course, uh, the backing of being a government when it
00:31:43.860
does this, but the, the result of it is the same, which is that a statue that has been
00:31:47.900
there for years, uh, taken away because of what I would probably say is a minority view
00:31:57.720
The other thing about that statue, and this is fairly personal and really far removed
00:32:02.940
from my military service, which is what you started to ask me about.
00:32:06.620
Um, when I was small, about three and a half, four, my family was from Kingston and my parents
00:32:14.460
And I asked, um, my parents, who was the man standing on the wall with all the cannons?
00:32:19.360
And they explained to me who Sir John A. Macdonald was.
00:32:22.740
And my military career took me all over the world and frequently back to Kingston, but wherever
00:32:26.940
I was, that was a landmark to me, that statue meant something to me.
00:32:31.700
Now, my great grandfather, that was a businessman in Kingston at the time that statue was put
00:32:36.240
up and, you know, a lot of people donated a dollar and people think that's nothing nowadays,
00:32:44.420
but a dollar was the average man's daily wage in 1895.
00:32:48.960
And I, I believe that statue was raised by public subscription.
00:32:55.880
So there's a, there's a sentiment there that ties back to my family and I'm sure many other
00:33:03.580
And for that reason, I thought I should stand in front of it as well as, you know, my own
00:33:13.860
Because I've had a number of people, uh, since, uh, I think it was the Canadian press, uh,
00:33:18.320
took a photo of you and your friend there standing with your flags and your berets.
00:33:22.460
I've had a number of people send this, uh, knowing I've been covering this and I'm curious
00:33:26.000
what you've found, uh, in, in the way of response to this, if, if anything.
00:33:32.900
Um, I, I don't use Twitter, but you know, I can see it on my email and one of the journalists
00:33:41.000
put up a presentation on it and there was a lot of responses to it.
00:33:46.180
Um, one person accused us of being false veterans because we weren't old enough to be in, uh,
00:33:53.080
Well, that's true, but I did serve in Bosnia and Afghanistan.
00:34:00.720
He was a reservist in the 1970s, but maintains, uh, an interest in contact with his old regiment.
00:34:07.760
So he had his beret and blazer and blazer crest.
00:34:11.680
But, um, the response was, was actually quite heartwarming really overall.
00:34:20.480
And, uh, you know, my friends of course, but many, many people I didn't know had responded
00:34:27.300
to the, the journalist's, um, tweet and, uh, it was very, very heartwarming really.
00:34:38.820
And I must say, however you would characterize your display, I, I never would have thought
00:34:43.020
that, uh, standing with a Canadian flag in front of a statue of Canada's first prime minister
00:34:51.700
And that's, uh, in and of itself quite a dark development in this country.
00:34:55.340
Well, I hope the next time someone tries to do that, that other people stand in front
00:35:02.680
of that statue, wherever it is, and, and, and, um, actually force a government to change.
00:35:10.400
If, if we have to do the same tactics to preserve our nation, that people who seem, um, keen to
00:35:17.320
disestablish our nation are using, well, maybe we should.
0.81
00:35:20.620
If, if that's polarizing, well, I think we're already polarized.
00:35:26.360
And I think, um, if there is an average Canadian, they're probably reticent.
00:35:36.420
They're probably more worried about their family at any one time than anything else.
00:35:40.480
And, um, it, it, you know, when you have something like this, I, I, I believe, I believe that the,
00:35:49.780
um, the crowd around, uh, that was opposed to the statue wanted it down.
00:35:53.760
I believe a lot of that was financed by the CERB, quite frankly.
00:36:00.720
You see, it was also timed on a date and time when most, um, people were getting ready for
00:36:09.900
If they tried to pull it down on a Saturday or Sunday, there might've been a different story.
00:36:18.160
And also I greatly appreciate your service for this country.
00:36:26.580
The councillor, Gordon Olke, if you are in the Leeds and Thousand Islands area of Ontario,
00:36:31.160
although his stand in Kingston for Johnny MacDonald was simply as someone who loves this country
00:36:36.240
and someone who served the country and us Canadians, we are all the better off for people like Gordon.
00:36:44.920
When we come back, more of the Andrew Lawton show here on True North.
00:37:04.800
A couple of weeks ago, we spoke with Ali Safavi of the National Council of Resistance of Iran
00:37:10.360
about the NCRI's push for Iranians to boycott the presidential election.
00:37:17.220
And I say election with a little bit of hesitation.
00:37:21.540
The candidates are pre-selected essentially by Iran's Ayatollah.
00:37:26.020
And what the NCRI wanted was low voter turnout to basically rebuke the process.
00:37:35.160
Now, Ibrahim Raisi was elected as president, as everyone predicted, a man who has blood on his hands.
00:37:43.660
But by and large, not a lot of enthusiasm from Iranians to participate in this process.
00:37:50.600
Joining me is Shaheen Gobadi, who is with the National Council of Resistance of Iran.
00:38:00.660
So let's talk first off about the low turnout here.
00:38:03.980
Because when you don't have many options, pretty much the only thing you can do to express your displeasure is not show up.
00:38:10.820
I think what happened in Iran was very significant.
00:38:15.660
You have to keep in mind that the figure the regime announced was actually five-fold increase.
00:38:21.520
It was tremendous rigging, even in the numbers.
00:38:25.080
In reality, our information, which is based on more than 1,200 reporters and more than 3,500 clips from polling stations throughout the country,
00:38:37.420
showed that less than 10 percent, and I repeat, less than 10 percent of the people took part in the election.
00:38:47.400
So it was a total defeat for the regime, and I think it was a very big victory, actually, for the Iranian people, politically and socially.
00:38:58.200
Now, this should not come, I would say, to a big surprise, because you have to remember, Iran has been the scene of three major nationwide uprisings in the last three years.
00:39:11.460
In December 2017, leading to January 2018, in November 2019, and in January 2020, and particularly November 2019, the protests almost, you know, involved almost 200 cities throughout the country in all 31 provinces.
00:39:29.240
And the people were chanting death to Ayatollah, death to Khamenei, and down to the dictator, and they were calling for regime change.
00:39:35.880
And the situation was so significant, and I think so fierce, that the regime had to use, you know, open fire in broad daylight against the protesters.
00:39:47.460
And in a very conservative estimate, more than 1,500 protesters were killed in a matter of a few days.
00:39:57.920
1,500 protesters were killed in a matter of a few days, not including thousands who were wounded, and not including 12,000 who were arrested.
00:40:06.460
And as I said, basically, the people shook the regime to its core, and almost, you know, pushed it over the cliff.
00:40:12.020
So, what you saw last Friday, was the other side of the coin of what we have been testing wrong in the last few years.
00:40:21.660
They have had enough with this regime, and I think what happened last Friday was a good indication of where Iranians stand.
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00:40:28.960
Let me ask you, though, Shaheen, if it really matters in the grand scheme of things, because Iranians can, as they did, not show up to vote.
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00:40:37.720
But the result of this is still Raisi in power, and Raisi continuing along with what we've seen from the Iranian regime in the last few years.
00:40:46.180
I guess, to put a more positive spin on this question, how do people stay motivated that that form of dissent matters when the result is this man as president?
00:40:59.980
You have to keep in mind that why the Supreme Leader Khamenei came to this point to put all this charade and all this, you know, gambit that he had pursued for three decades or so,
00:41:13.880
very much to the regime's interest of, you know, purporting some being, you know, reformists and moderates and, you know, you know, depicting as though there's a camp of moderates and reformers, and there are some hardliners.
00:41:24.480
That was the game that Khamenei basically pushed for three decades and ripped the benefits of it.
00:41:33.200
What caused him to put aside any even semblance of, you know, competition in this particular case?
00:41:40.060
Why he, as you said, from the very beginning was quite clear and evident that, you know, Khamenei wants to install his man in this position.
00:41:47.700
I think the answer is, again, what happened inside Iran.
00:41:52.240
Look, resorting to the old adage in politics that, you know, all politics is local.
00:41:57.600
For Khamenei, the main issue is the same power.
00:42:00.520
And his main enemy are not the Iranian people.
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00:42:05.280
So his primary concern and the regime's primary concern is to prevent another uprising similar to what happened, as I said, 2019, 220, and 2018.
00:42:16.840
So that's why he brought Raisi to power with the price of actually purging even a very loyal section of his own regime,
00:42:25.760
which makes the regime much more fragile, much more susceptible to possible uprisings, which are, you know, being at works and are at the wings.
00:42:39.120
So what I'm saying here is actually what happened is very significant, not because how Raisi was installed in this position,
00:42:49.040
but because why he was installed to this position, the dynamics that led to this point, I think the clear indicator is what to expect next.
00:43:00.600
No doubt that Khamenei brought Raisi simply to kill more people.
00:43:05.880
Raisi's message is that, you know, no tolerance will be tolerated, no dissent will be tolerated, more bloodletting, iron fist, and more killing.
00:43:14.000
And so far as it pertains to Iran's foreign policy, you have to expect more emphasis on supporting, you know, terrorist groups, more support for Hezbollah,
00:43:23.580
more support for regimes, you know, militias, more emphasis on ballistic missiles, and actually more emphasis in secret program to acquire nuclear weapons.
00:43:35.040
But at the same time, I think the message to the world is that Iran is up for change by the wings.
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00:43:40.920
So in that sense, I think what happens is very significant.
00:43:44.260
Let me ask you about the foreign policy aspect of this, because one of the things, and I've spoken about this with some of your colleagues in the past,
00:43:50.700
is that Iran has been very negatively affected by sanctions.
00:43:54.940
And this is why Iran has pretended to play nice with the West to get sanctions lifted through the nuclear deal and other forms of diplomacy.
00:44:03.340
But the reality is, Raisi has already said he has no interest in meeting with the United States.
00:44:11.900
I guess, how can the regime survive if they retreat into that very hardline anti-Western approach that hasn't really worked for them all that well?
00:44:21.540
I think, again, it's a very, very important question, a very good one, actually.
00:44:27.980
The regime is caught in a rock and a hard place.
00:44:31.420
And that's, this is basically very much the paradox that Khamenei is facing.
00:44:39.580
On the one hand, he has no choice but to resort more to the regime's own recipe and, you know, old recipe of more repression and more, as I said, belligerence and more intransigence.
00:44:52.100
On the other hand, he needs to get the sanctions relieved, actually, in order to finance the regime's, you know, very much sinister and malign activities.
00:45:04.180
So that's where international community comes in, any notion that by providing concession to the regime, being nice to them, will lead them to reciprocate is total naivete.
00:45:16.940
I think bringing Raisi to power, a man who only a part of his resume is being directly involved in massacring 30,000 political prisoners just in summer of 1988.
00:45:30.280
I repeat the number, 30,000 political prisoners who are already serving the terms, according to the regime's own courts, were all brought to kangaroo trials, last from two minutes to five minutes, sent to the gallows simply because they were still adherent to their beliefs on supporting the Mujahideen, the People's Mujahideen Organization of Iran, or M.E.K.,
00:45:54.280
because, you know, they were the arch enemy of the regime, and they are the regime's main, you know, organized resistance, and the fatwa was basically to eliminate them.
00:46:04.820
Now, only a part of Raisi's resume is directly and personally, as a man of a four-man team of death committee in Tehran, sent thousands of prisoners to the gallows in Tehran,
00:46:17.120
not withstanding, as I said, this massacre in November 2019, that he again oversaw as the head of judiciary, judiciary chief, just this past November 2019.
00:46:29.480
So obviously, when you bring that kind of person to power, it means that you want to continue with the same path.
00:46:33.940
So I think if there was any justification to appease the mullahs with the hope that somehow, miraculously, somebody can pull, you know, rabbit out of the hat,
00:46:47.360
and you see moderates or reformists, non-existent as they are, ascend and take the upper hand, that's absolutely not the case anymore.
00:46:56.520
So they are nowhere to be found. Basically, they are no player. So the regime is showing his real face, his real nature to the wall.
00:47:07.720
So there is no grounds for any appeasing, providing concession. And I think, to our contrary, the least is expected from the West to hold the regime accountable,
00:47:21.100
hold them to account for all their crimes, in particular Raisi. And that's exactly what Amnesty International announced on the day that Raisi was selected.
00:47:31.360
They said, look, this man should not be the president. This man should be basically brought to justice.
00:47:36.780
Here in Canada, back in 2013, all members of parliament from every party voted to condemn the 88 massacre that you just spoke of.
00:47:49.280
And you know very well in politics, it's hard to find issues that everyone agrees on. So there was some unanimity there.
00:47:54.960
Now, I would take that now, eight years later, to say that there's already a record that governments,
00:48:00.940
foreign governments, cannot legitimize and recognize this man as a leader, that he has to be held to account.
00:48:07.380
But we've also seen a very concerning trend in the West of appeasing Iran and believing that they can be brought to the table.
00:48:14.560
And I'm curious if you think that the brutality in Raisi's history, and not far history, we're talking about very recently here,
00:48:22.820
do you think that can change this dynamic of appeasement from the West that we've often seen?
00:48:28.600
Because there's no way they can legitimize this man. Or is that being a little bit too optimistic on my part?
00:48:34.440
No, you're not too optimistic. I think this is the least the West should do.
00:48:38.420
Look, look at yesterday's press conference by Raisi, his first presser.
00:48:43.920
He said, not only condones what he did in 1988, he says he should be praised for it, and he should be re-voted for it.
00:48:53.400
Now, what does that mean? That means he wants to continue the same policy,
00:48:56.900
that he wants to do more executions. And at the same time, he was very much trying to evade his, you know, background and his record.
00:49:08.520
So the message to the international community, to the West in general, in Canada in particular, is very simple.
00:49:17.400
Hold them to account. Hold, you know, end the impunity.
00:49:20.820
And it's not too optimistic. This is just the minimum moral standards.
00:49:26.100
A man who has 30,000 executions under his watch.
00:49:38.200
And you have to remember, in 1988, people could claim they didn't know.
00:49:46.300
This is the world of, you know, communications is the time of, you know, Internet.
00:49:52.140
So people and I think it's very important that the Western countries realize that silence,
00:49:57.680
silence would only embolden Raisi and Khamenei to continue this path.
00:50:03.340
But at the same time, if they speak out, if they say, look, they don't recognize this selection.
00:50:09.320
They don't recognize this man as the president of a grand country like Iran.
00:50:12.580
I think the message will be well received with the mullahs and Raisi.
00:50:16.760
And you have to keep in mind, the regime is very weak.
00:50:28.740
With the explosive society, with a bankrupt economy, with international isolation.
00:50:34.120
Obviously, Khamenei has to think not only twice, but three times and four times.
00:50:38.320
So what I'm saying is, the regime is very prone to international pressure.
00:50:44.720
All governments should do is to just hold the regime to account.
00:50:50.860
Shaheen Gobadi of the National Council of Resistance of Iran.
00:50:53.860
And I should say, coming up July 10th to 12th, the NCRI is hosting its Free Iran World Summit.
00:50:59.260
And we'll certainly have coverage of that on True North.
00:51:06.040
And I wish you and all your viewers and listeners a very good day.
00:51:14.540
And I should say, if you're interested in this, my colleague Candice Malcolm had a fantastic
00:51:21.520
Not just the issues that are facing the Iranian people, but also the Canadian connection.
00:51:26.780
Unpacking, because I hadn't heard of prior to reading her column, that 2013 vote in Parliament
00:51:32.040
to unanimously condemn, with all parties, this man's conduct, effectively.
00:51:37.120
And now he is representing Iran on the world stage.
00:51:43.000
We will be back in just a couple days' time with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show
00:51:52.080
Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:51:54.380
Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.