Juno News - Mandatory Masks and Campus Censors

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.960 Coming up, taxing you for working from home, mandatory masks, and the death of academic freedom.

00:00:21.480 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:25.060 Welcome to the Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:33.220 Hope you are having a wonderful Canada Day, or as we prefer to call it, Dominion Day.

00:00:38.240 No point in changing the name of something on account of trying to make it sound like a big sale event at your local superstore.

00:00:45.480 Dominion Day, the original name, that's how we know it here.

00:00:47.900 Then again, I'm also still, as I mentioned on Monday, missing the red ensign.

00:00:51.920 So, you'll have to accept if I'm a little bit outdated as far as what the new patriotic symbols and slogans are for Canada.

00:01:00.180 But regardless, hope you're enjoying a bit of a day off time with the family,

00:01:03.280 especially in light of what's happened in this country in the last few months and around the world.

00:01:08.400 One thing that is a bit of a warning, if you've been working from home, as I know so many have in the pandemic,

00:01:13.560 and you live in Calgary, the city of Calgary is looking to tax you just because you work from home.

00:01:19.940 So, just to put this in context, while everyone around the world is saying,

00:01:24.520 how do we deal with the economic effects and implications of coronavirus, of COVID-19,

00:01:30.080 the city of Calgary is saying, I've got an idea.

00:01:33.560 So, all these people that have to work from home, hit them with a tax.

00:01:36.720 This comes in a report that was published by Calgary's Financial Task Force,

00:01:42.580 which is anytime government has a task force, you know, it's never going to be all that good.

00:01:46.980 And they have this idea of bringing property taxation into the 21st century.

00:01:52.420 Now, again, they mean how to raise it.

00:01:54.640 That's exactly what they mean.

00:01:56.420 Because they say here, revenue sources for Canadian municipalities are limited.

00:02:00.640 So, they're trying to find ways that they can grow different revenue potential.

00:02:05.740 And they take a few pages to try to beat around the bush until they eventually say

00:02:10.360 that they need to modernize and adapt and do all of this

00:02:14.920 and find municipal revenue opportunities available through the digital economy.

00:02:20.660 And you scroll down way, way, way down, way, way, way down.

00:02:24.240 And you get to the very bottom, the last paragraph of the last recommendation

00:02:28.020 of the last page of this section.

00:02:29.900 So, right now, the big discussion everyone's having is whether people should continue to work

00:02:51.920 from home, which means more home offices, and you might save a bit of money on gas,

00:02:55.900 on parking, on work-life balance, may improve.

00:02:59.840 But don't worry, government will find a way to screw it up.

00:03:02.540 Because Calgary wants to do a home office tax.

00:03:06.580 Like, this is absurd to me.

00:03:09.040 Because if you own your home, you pay your property tax,

00:03:11.960 you're paying your water, your hydro.

00:03:13.780 It's not even like the city is giving you more for the privilege of staying home.

00:03:19.100 They just realize that, hey, commercial real estate,

00:03:22.200 which, by the way, is already in a terrible situation in Calgary.

00:03:25.720 Just take a look at Candace Malcolm's documentary with True North, Calgary in Crisis.

00:03:30.180 But they're saying that, oh, well, you know, we're going to have fewer corporate tenants.

00:03:33.340 We need to get some of this money back elsewhere.

00:03:35.680 Oh, yeah, you run a home daycare?

00:03:37.360 Boom, more property taxes.

00:03:38.860 You write blog posts from home?

00:03:40.480 More property taxes.

00:03:41.720 You do a podcast?

00:03:44.320 We're not in Calgary, Nancy.

00:03:45.740 You can't come after us here.

00:03:46.900 But never, never doubt government's way to, at the worst time,

00:03:51.240 put the worst possible proposal forward and, unfortunately, probably still get away from it.

00:03:56.220 Although, oddly, not the weirdest proposal or the worst proposal to come from a city council this week,

00:04:01.960 Toronto has decided to mandate masks indoors.

00:04:06.500 City council voted to make masks mandatory throughout the coronavirus pandemic.

00:04:10.960 And the goal here is that indoor public spaces must have people wearing these face coverings

00:04:17.000 so that we can prevent a second, third, 17th wave, wherever is coming next.

00:04:22.560 And, you know, the thing about this that I have to point out here,

00:04:25.180 and we talked about this going back to, I think, February,

00:04:28.120 we have gone from masks are dangerous, don't wear masks,

00:04:32.780 to, ah, well, okay, I guess if you really want to, you can wear a mask if it's going to make you feel better,

00:04:38.760 to, okay, all right, fine, you know, wear a mask,

00:04:42.740 to, all right, we're going to shame you if you don't,

00:04:45.100 to now we're going to prosecute you.

00:04:46.920 So in just three months, we've gone from masks are terrible,

00:04:49.840 don't you dare wear a mask,

00:04:51.440 to we're going to fine you up to $1,000 if you are indoors in Toronto and not wearing a mask.

00:04:57.680 Now, this may not, in fact, be constitutional.

00:04:59.760 The Canadian Constitution Foundation has put out a statement raising concerns about it.

00:05:05.480 They think that communities with mask orders are violating charter rights.

00:05:10.140 Guelph was the first one to do it.

00:05:12.140 I think that was last week or so.

00:05:14.640 And now that Toronto has,

00:05:16.360 I wouldn't be surprised if other communities started to follow suit.

00:05:20.000 So this is going to be pretty bad.

00:05:22.100 Now, I'm not anti-mask, by the way.

00:05:23.940 I mean, in my city, there aren't a lot of cases.

00:05:26.040 I don't go out all that much.

00:05:27.280 I wore a mask once, and that was when I was required to do it to get my hair cut.

00:05:31.420 And in that case, the businesses said this is the rule.

00:05:33.980 If a business says you must wear a mask to shop here,

00:05:37.060 I'm going to respect their right to do that,

00:05:38.980 and I'll make a decision accordingly.

00:05:41.240 But mandating masks, which is what city councils have done,

00:05:45.180 is really bad right now for two reasons.

00:05:48.740 First off, because it just shows that no one knows anything.

00:05:52.320 Everyone's making it up as they go along.

00:05:53.940 When Theresa Tam was saying, don't wear a mask,

00:05:56.840 and we were told to listen because she's the expert,

00:05:59.280 why are they any more correct now when they say,

00:06:02.100 oh, you've got to wear a mask?

00:06:04.040 And look, no denying masks were very helpful in places like Taiwan,

00:06:08.820 in Hong Kong, and South Korea.

00:06:10.640 Masks were how they prevented getting these massive waves initially.

00:06:14.740 But when in Canada, they're just coming around to it months after the fact,

00:06:19.940 it reeks of just being this, you know, attempt at grasping at straws,

00:06:23.940 an attempt to say that we know what's going on.

00:06:25.860 And I'm not one of these people that thinks a mask is a symbol of control.

00:06:30.020 I was actually very pro-mask earlier on,

00:06:32.440 and I wish the government had taken it seriously when it was important,

00:06:35.860 when we were still waiting for that curve to be so-called flattened.

00:06:40.220 But now the curve is flattened.

00:06:41.440 The curve has gone away.

00:06:42.320 The curve is not actually a curve.

00:06:44.060 The curve is just a flat line,

00:06:45.700 and we're still dealing with stuff like this.

00:06:48.240 So the idea of this becoming a permanent lockdown now

00:06:52.100 is what it seems like we're headed towards.

00:06:54.700 So John Tory says everyone in Toronto needs a mask.

00:06:57.560 Well, just this week,

00:06:58.500 the travel ban for Canada was extended another month until July 31st.

00:07:03.340 The longer this goes on,

00:07:05.080 the more people's patience will wear down.

00:07:07.960 And at a certain point,

00:07:09.300 you have to ask, what is it that we're waiting for?

00:07:11.860 What is it that we're waiting for?

00:07:13.400 When communities across the country are finding that things are under control,

00:07:17.320 things are fine,

00:07:18.380 why is it only three and a half months after the fact

00:07:21.680 that these discussions are taking place

00:07:24.000 when it starts to seem like things are on the right track?

00:07:27.820 So look, wear a mask, don't wear a mask.

00:07:29.840 I'm not going to publicly shame anyone one way or another.

00:07:32.720 I'm going to support businesses making their own determination.

00:07:35.620 But for City Council,

00:07:37.080 after their own medical officers

00:07:39.100 and the Canadian Medical Officers of Health

00:07:41.040 were saying, don't use masks for the longest time.

00:07:44.160 I'm just going to roll my eyes

00:07:45.220 and you'll be able to see it

00:07:46.440 because right now I'm not wearing a mask.

00:07:48.300 When we come back,

00:07:49.340 we'll talk about free speech and academic inquiry

00:07:51.780 with David Millard Haskell.

00:07:53.760 That's all up next on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:07:56.120 Stay tuned.

00:07:56.680 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:08:08.260 The big cultural battle of the month is

00:08:10.560 will you admit that whatever institution or country

00:08:13.560 you preside over is systemically racist?

00:08:15.920 Whether it's the RCMP, a political party,

00:08:18.900 Canada itself, universities, companies,

00:08:21.460 everyone has to say that everything is systemically racist.

00:08:24.600 And if you don't, you are just proving it

00:08:26.480 and that makes you a racist.

00:08:27.700 This is the theme we've been talking about

00:08:29.540 the last couple of shows

00:08:30.600 and more and more examples keep emerging of it.

00:08:33.340 Well, the latest on the list is Laurier University,

00:08:36.220 which the professor and president,

00:08:39.280 Deborah McClatchy, recognizes

00:08:41.080 has systemic racism on the campus.

00:08:44.100 She has said in a letter to the Laurier community

00:08:47.300 that Laurier needs to tackle its systemic racism

00:08:50.280 in the school and across the country.

00:08:52.780 And as such, Laurier has put forward an action plan

00:08:55.560 for equity, diversity, and inclusion and indigeneity.

00:08:59.400 Now, there may be nothing wrong

00:09:00.740 with some of the specific proposals that are called for,

00:09:03.900 but it's based on something

00:09:05.240 that hasn't actually been defined or established,

00:09:07.740 which is, is Laurier actually systemically racist?

00:09:11.620 And what does that mean?

00:09:12.880 Well, only a little bit of pushback.

00:09:14.680 Two professors, David Millard Haskell

00:09:16.440 and William McNally wrote an open letter saying,

00:09:19.300 well, hang on, you haven't defined it,

00:09:21.120 you haven't given any evidence,

00:09:22.420 and what you're calling for has much broader implications

00:09:25.520 than what you say it's about.

00:09:27.220 This letter, of course, making waves

00:09:29.360 because, well, like I said,

00:09:31.000 if you deny systemic racism,

00:09:32.420 you're part of the problem.

00:09:34.100 Fantastic letter.

00:09:35.100 It is published online at SAFS,

00:09:37.100 the Society for Academic Freedom and Scholarships website,

00:09:39.980 safs.ca.

00:09:41.180 One of the co-authors,

00:09:42.140 Professor David Millard Haskell,

00:09:43.880 joins me on the line now.

00:09:45.680 David, good to talk to you.

00:09:46.580 Thanks very much for coming on today.

00:09:48.200 It's my pleasure, Andrew.

00:09:49.180 Thanks for having me.

00:09:49.920 Now, it's not to say you've been a shrinking violet

00:09:52.520 from the free speech fight in general,

00:09:54.620 certainly not at Laurier University.

00:09:56.200 You were front and center

00:09:57.160 when the Lindsay Shepard controversy

00:09:59.560 happened a couple of years back

00:10:01.320 and you've continued to stand up for free speech.

00:10:03.980 But on this issue specifically,

00:10:05.720 why did you decide to stick your neck out,

00:10:08.240 especially in this climate

00:10:09.240 where everyone's getting canceled

00:10:10.420 and put some criticism and scrutiny

00:10:13.540 on this approach from your school's president?

00:10:16.380 Well, you know, you have to choose your battles

00:10:19.740 and both Will and I have been really concerned

00:10:24.260 about the drift within academia more generally,

00:10:28.360 but also the drift within our own university

00:10:32.060 where empirical evidence is no longer being used

00:10:36.580 in order to justify policies and messaging.

00:10:41.320 And it seems that ideological conclusions

00:10:45.980 are driving what is happening.

00:10:50.140 And these ideological conclusions

00:10:52.060 are based on good evidence.

00:10:53.540 So this was an example of this

00:10:55.080 where our president said that there was,

00:10:58.620 she made the suggestion

00:10:59.660 that systemic racism was on our campus.

00:11:03.580 And not only that,

00:11:04.980 she had an action plan to combat it.

00:11:08.200 And we just, we had to say, stop for a moment.

00:11:13.840 You're not basing this on evidence.

00:11:16.440 And so I think that there's a subtlety there even.

00:11:19.280 We're saying, we're looking for

00:11:23.060 your justification for the claim.

00:11:25.320 We're not even saying your claim is wrong at this point,

00:11:28.200 although the evidence that we've found

00:11:30.400 would suggest it is.

00:11:31.500 But what we want as a university,

00:11:35.460 as a place that makes its living,

00:11:39.200 trying to advance knowledge,

00:11:41.980 we want to see the evidence.

00:11:43.600 We want to talk about the evidence.

00:11:45.600 And so it was just standing up for the principle,

00:11:49.920 the principles that are supposed to be

00:11:51.940 the very life's blood of a university

00:11:53.980 that made us want to respond.

00:11:56.120 One of the points you and Professor McNally

00:11:58.100 raised in your letter,

00:11:59.140 which should have been an obvious one,

00:12:00.740 and it should have been the very first thing

00:12:02.580 that something like this would have addressed,

00:12:04.140 is the lack of a definition of systemic racism

00:12:07.580 or of racism in general.

00:12:09.680 And look, people may in their own minds

00:12:11.320 know what racism is by way of example.

00:12:13.840 Systemic racism is a bit more complex

00:12:15.880 and I think has a lot more baggage

00:12:18.340 and loading of that term, if I may.

00:12:21.420 And there's no definition of it.

00:12:23.560 McClatchy has said,

00:12:24.480 yes, the school is systemically racist,

00:12:25.960 but this did not come with an explanation

00:12:28.920 as to how.

00:12:29.960 And you point that out in your letter,

00:12:31.360 which, again,

00:12:32.040 and I am not downplaying what you're saying here,

00:12:34.300 it should have been an obvious question

00:12:35.720 that you raised,

00:12:36.820 but no one else was.

00:12:37.900 And the irony here in the logic,

00:12:41.120 Andrew,

00:12:41.460 is that part of her action plan

00:12:43.200 specifically says,

00:12:45.780 we need to define racism.

00:12:48.740 So she's admitted right there,

00:12:50.880 we don't have a definition,

00:12:52.740 and yet she said earlier

00:12:54.240 in this other missive

00:12:55.760 that we're systemically racist.

00:12:58.160 So that's the cart before the horse.

00:13:00.600 This isn't how you work the scientific method.

00:13:03.240 And my worry is

00:13:06.220 there was language within her email

00:13:09.500 that was referencing critical race theory,

00:13:12.880 which is an offsheet of critical theory

00:13:15.200 more generally.

00:13:16.860 And it has a lot of really

00:13:19.360 anti-academic ideas behind it.

00:13:25.800 They suggest things like

00:13:27.380 even empirical evidence

00:13:29.040 is really promoting whiteness 0.96

00:13:32.020 or white oppression

00:13:32.920 and this is right in the works

00:13:35.160 of critical race theorists.

00:13:36.780 And when you're saying

00:13:39.120 that empirical evidence

00:13:40.180 is oppression,

00:13:42.840 what else do we have?

00:13:44.400 What else do we have

00:13:45.480 that we've been using

00:13:46.280 since the Enlightenment

00:13:47.220 to actually try and get away

00:13:49.060 from issues of bias,

00:13:50.760 but instead try and advance

00:13:52.660 just neutral knowledge?

00:13:55.620 So with systemic racism,

00:13:59.980 what I'm worrying about

00:14:01.360 is that it doesn't look like racism

00:14:04.440 as we were taught, right?

00:14:06.660 Racism, when we were younger,

00:14:09.360 we were taught that

00:14:10.920 if you say something

00:14:12.660 that is negative

00:14:14.140 about someone's skin color

00:14:15.700 or about someone

00:14:16.740 because of their skin color,

00:14:18.100 if you had words or actions

00:14:20.480 that were directly discriminatory

00:14:22.240 related to someone's skin color,

00:14:24.380 that's racism.

00:14:25.240 And all of us agree

00:14:26.680 that's terrible.

00:14:28.560 It's sickening.

00:14:29.880 And we should stand against it.

00:14:31.760 But systemic racism,

00:14:33.140 it's this different thing.

00:14:34.380 And as I read the literature

00:14:35.680 and I read,

00:14:38.380 we'll talk maybe about

00:14:39.300 the single study

00:14:40.200 that Dr. McClatchy used

00:14:42.540 to justify this entire action plan.

00:14:46.340 Yeah, the being raced study.

00:14:48.280 I was going to ask about that.

00:14:50.260 So tell me why that's

00:14:51.280 such a dangerous part of this.

00:14:52.620 Well, because it in fact

00:14:54.820 explicitly says

00:14:55.780 we're using critical race theory

00:14:57.740 as the underpinnings

00:14:59.360 for the study.

00:15:00.900 And the idea of systemic racism

00:15:03.160 as it is applied

00:15:04.180 within critical race theory

00:15:05.460 is that any disparity,

00:15:07.700 any disparity where black people,

00:15:11.180 people of color

00:15:11.940 or other people of color

00:15:13.040 are at a disadvantage

00:15:15.040 where the numbers

00:15:17.080 are negatively against them,

00:15:19.000 that in and of itself is racism.

00:15:21.120 Well, that's the fallacy

00:15:23.180 of saying that

00:15:23.980 correlation equals causation.

00:15:26.720 And every researcher

00:15:28.420 knows you don't do that.

00:15:30.040 And yet here we have

00:15:30.760 a university promoting this idea,

00:15:33.800 this very anti-intellectual idea.

00:15:37.400 So it's worrying.

00:15:39.400 It's worrying when the keepers

00:15:41.140 of knowledge abandon their job.

00:15:44.280 Yeah, and that's one

00:15:47.600 of the big things.

00:15:48.560 And I know this is not

00:15:49.300 an academic point

00:15:50.860 that I'm about to address here.

00:15:52.120 But when we saw last week,

00:15:53.880 for example,

00:15:54.400 the RCMP commissioner,

00:15:55.600 Brenda Luckey,

00:15:56.240 say the RCMP is systemically racist

00:15:58.480 and failed to come up

00:15:59.760 with an explanation

00:16:00.780 for how she's reached that

00:16:02.120 and, you know,

00:16:02.920 ended up passing the question

00:16:04.020 off somewhere else.

00:16:05.200 There's something that we see

00:16:06.680 right now in this culture.

00:16:08.240 And I know we're going to talk

00:16:09.260 a little bit more

00:16:09.900 about some of these broader issues,

00:16:11.660 but where people are committed

00:16:13.940 to the outcome

00:16:15.060 before they even go

00:16:16.200 through that process.

00:16:17.060 So that's no different

00:16:17.960 than McClatchy saying that,

00:16:20.600 yes, we're systemically racist.

00:16:21.780 And one of the things

00:16:22.820 we're going to do

00:16:23.240 is come up with a definition

00:16:24.240 of what racism means.

00:16:26.180 It's like they know

00:16:27.320 that this is the right thing to say

00:16:29.080 or the so-called woke thing to say

00:16:31.000 and whatever other processes

00:16:33.240 they need to go through

00:16:34.120 to get to that point,

00:16:35.100 they're going to go through.

00:16:35.920 But they've already determined

00:16:37.180 that's where they're going with it.

00:16:39.000 Right.

00:16:39.200 And it short circuits

00:16:40.280 what actually is

00:16:41.380 the scientific method

00:16:42.500 because we want to test

00:16:44.900 and retest.

00:16:46.420 And so what actually happens

00:16:48.720 when you begin to investigate

00:16:50.720 this notion of systemic racism?

00:16:53.720 So if you're listening to people

00:16:55.780 talk about systemic racism,

00:16:57.140 especially in the context

00:16:58.620 of the George Floyd death,

00:17:00.940 they often talk about it

00:17:02.300 in terms of policing.

00:17:04.120 But Will and I,

00:17:06.580 in our letter even,

00:17:07.940 we said the best empirical evidence

00:17:10.260 shows that really

00:17:12.120 the shooting of black people

00:17:14.080 is not racially motivated.

00:17:16.520 We've got Roland Fryer

00:17:18.660 at Harvard

00:17:19.200 has done studies from 2018

00:17:21.660 and some of the most current work

00:17:22.920 we have that shows

00:17:24.400 there is not evidence

00:17:26.360 of this racial motivation.

00:17:29.360 Another fellow

00:17:29.960 at Michigan State University

00:17:32.760 from 2019,

00:17:34.900 Joseph Cesaro.

00:17:37.660 I think I'm getting

00:17:38.860 his name right.

00:17:40.040 But he did a nationwide

00:17:41.360 wide study.

00:17:42.860 And he said,

00:17:43.360 listen,

00:17:44.580 it's a fact that

00:17:45.920 a black man in America

00:17:47.820 is more apt

00:17:48.980 to be shot

00:17:49.620 by a black police officer

00:17:51.560 than a white police officer.

00:17:53.540 There just isn't proof

00:17:55.280 that this is racially motivated.

00:17:57.800 So I look at that

00:17:58.780 and I say,

00:17:59.740 I want to know

00:18:01.340 if there is

00:18:02.300 some kind of racism happening.

00:18:04.860 And let's stick

00:18:05.840 with the police.

00:18:06.760 I want to know about it

00:18:07.960 so we can fix it.

00:18:09.420 But these claims

00:18:10.520 that are not based on evidence

00:18:11.820 aren't getting us anywhere.

00:18:13.620 Well, they're getting us

00:18:14.920 into a very dangerous place,

00:18:17.180 a place that is not

00:18:18.060 based on evidence,

00:18:19.360 but it's based on a lot

00:18:20.580 of thoughts

00:18:22.760 about doing things

00:18:24.060 that are pretty hostile.

00:18:25.400 And you point out

00:18:27.100 in your letter

00:18:27.600 something here.

00:18:28.780 If this research

00:18:29.880 was presented in class,

00:18:31.220 it might be perceived

00:18:32.280 as, quote,

00:18:33.060 invalidating racialized

00:18:34.740 people's experience

00:18:35.760 of racism, unquote.

00:18:37.000 Now, I should say,

00:18:37.880 I haven't read

00:18:38.580 Friar's research.

00:18:39.800 It could be that

00:18:40.380 there's a scientific point

00:18:42.420 to be debated there

00:18:43.380 that you could,

00:18:43.980 you know,

00:18:44.500 take aim through

00:18:45.100 the scientific method

00:18:46.100 at his findings,

00:18:47.320 his methodology,

00:18:48.200 whatever else you'd like.

00:18:49.980 But you raise a point there

00:18:51.580 that I don't think

00:18:52.140 anyone can disagree,

00:18:53.080 that there would be

00:18:53.840 lots of people lined up,

00:18:55.040 including at academic

00:18:55.940 institutions,

00:18:56.580 to have the discussion

00:18:58.320 of that research

00:18:59.100 taken off the table

00:19:00.000 because of how it

00:19:00.940 might make people feel.

00:19:02.880 And thanks for bringing

00:19:03.720 that up because really

00:19:04.560 you've hit the nail

00:19:05.780 on the head.

00:19:06.160 This is what we're

00:19:07.040 really concerned about.

00:19:08.480 So the implications

00:19:09.680 of what our president

00:19:11.720 was saying

00:19:12.240 and also the study

00:19:13.460 that she cites,

00:19:14.280 the study itself,

00:19:15.040 it was called

00:19:15.400 Being Raced.

00:19:16.320 It was produced

00:19:17.040 by some undergraduate

00:19:18.420 students under the

00:19:19.440 tutelage of some

00:19:21.020 mentors who are professors

00:19:22.260 and also people

00:19:23.080 from the diversity

00:19:23.800 and equity authors.

00:19:25.400 And the study itself,

00:19:27.740 it's a phenomenological study.

00:19:30.540 It's not,

00:19:32.000 it wasn't,

00:19:32.840 it wasn't a properly

00:19:34.420 chosen sample

00:19:35.300 in order to generalize

00:19:37.180 from it.

00:19:37.980 It was also

00:19:39.040 of the sort

00:19:41.380 that said anything

00:19:42.200 that our participants

00:19:43.340 say is racism,

00:19:45.360 we are going

00:19:46.060 to not question it.

00:19:47.640 And that's fine

00:19:48.840 for lived experience,

00:19:50.240 but that's not fine

00:19:51.540 when you're going

00:19:52.140 to generate policy.

00:19:54.300 So back to this,

00:19:56.200 this notion

00:19:57.140 about what that study

00:19:59.220 also said,

00:20:00.100 that study made

00:20:01.180 some claims

00:20:01.800 that said

00:20:02.700 from their perspective,

00:20:05.500 if a professor,

00:20:07.220 they called it

00:20:07.880 a faculty perpetrator,

00:20:09.680 if a professor

00:20:10.820 were to quote

00:20:12.220 from a study

00:20:12.980 that went against

00:20:15.160 the lived experience

00:20:17.800 of a student,

00:20:19.860 and even if that,

00:20:21.100 even if the professor

00:20:22.180 is quoting peer-reviewed

00:20:24.140 excellent research,

00:20:25.100 but it's going

00:20:25.700 against the lived experience

00:20:27.740 of the student

00:20:28.300 in the classroom,

00:20:29.300 that's racism.

00:20:30.160 Well, suddenly,

00:20:32.260 you can't quote

00:20:33.040 those studies.

00:20:35.180 And we have to,

00:20:38.680 as an institution,

00:20:39.880 realize that we're

00:20:41.160 going to say things

00:20:42.020 that make people

00:20:42.600 uncomfortable.

00:20:44.300 That's what happens

00:20:44.980 in a democracy,

00:20:46.280 that's what happens

00:20:47.080 in,

00:20:48.100 should happen

00:20:48.740 in a university

00:20:49.440 where academic freedom

00:20:50.540 is present.

00:20:51.960 Now,

00:20:52.700 I'm all for being simple,

00:20:54.700 but absolutely,

00:20:55.880 we cannot stop

00:20:57.180 talking about facts

00:20:59.220 simply because

00:21:00.040 they make people

00:21:00.600 uncomfortable.

00:21:01.640 We are having

00:21:02.620 a little bit

00:21:03.480 of a technical glitch here.

00:21:04.900 We were able

00:21:05.260 to solve one,

00:21:06.000 but we created another.

00:21:07.160 So we've switched

00:21:07.940 over to the phone now.

00:21:09.620 David Haskell,

00:21:10.280 thanks for sticking

00:21:11.100 with us here.

00:21:12.120 The recording system

00:21:13.700 has already decided

00:21:14.460 to take an early

00:21:15.460 Canada Day holiday here.

00:21:17.300 We were talking,

00:21:18.280 though,

00:21:18.480 about a lot of the,

00:21:20.420 I'll say frankly,

00:21:21.520 shoddy research

00:21:22.640 or non-existent research

00:21:24.300 that's going into

00:21:25.360 a lot of these declarations.

00:21:26.980 And I appreciate

00:21:27.860 something you mentioned

00:21:28.720 earlier.

00:21:29.220 Which is to say

00:21:29.780 that you're not

00:21:30.220 even discounting

00:21:31.020 that racism

00:21:31.640 or systemic racism

00:21:32.720 exists on campus.

00:21:34.320 You're saying

00:21:34.920 that there is no basis

00:21:36.260 for the school's

00:21:37.760 president to make

00:21:38.920 those claims.

00:21:40.040 And I wanted to ask you

00:21:41.040 because I thought

00:21:41.740 that, you know,

00:21:42.500 there was a bit

00:21:43.180 of a glimmer of hope

00:21:44.080 a couple of years back

00:21:45.040 when Lindsay Shepard,

00:21:46.340 I think,

00:21:46.820 exposed a lot

00:21:47.660 of what was going on.

00:21:48.600 And you were front

00:21:49.920 and center on that battle

00:21:50.900 as was your co-author

00:21:52.060 of this letter,

00:21:53.120 Dr. McNally.

00:21:54.400 And we fast forward

00:21:55.500 to the present time

00:21:57.300 and it seems like,

00:21:58.420 you know,

00:21:59.040 any step you took forward

00:22:00.620 was met with two

00:22:01.700 or three steps back.

00:22:03.100 So how do you think

00:22:04.120 that the campus

00:22:05.000 by and large

00:22:06.040 is responding

00:22:07.380 to this sort of thing?

00:22:08.240 Because when you're

00:22:09.020 making a claim

00:22:09.780 that a school community

00:22:11.020 is systemically racist,

00:22:12.560 you're basically saying

00:22:13.940 that everyone

00:22:14.600 who is responsible

00:22:15.860 for making up

00:22:16.600 that campus

00:22:17.160 isn't somehow,

00:22:18.260 in some way,

00:22:19.020 complicit in racism.

00:22:20.240 Yeah, well,

00:22:22.680 that is the implication there

00:22:24.320 and it is,

00:22:25.800 again,

00:22:26.260 that's an incredibly

00:22:28.620 pejorative thing

00:22:30.240 to say

00:22:30.820 about a campus

00:22:31.960 without having

00:22:33.720 quantitative,

00:22:35.260 empirical data

00:22:36.060 to back it up.

00:22:37.440 And my worry,

00:22:40.380 and you were drawing

00:22:41.500 in the history

00:22:42.200 about where Laurier

00:22:44.240 has been

00:22:44.840 and how,

00:22:46.400 in the Lindsay Shepard affair,

00:22:48.320 our administration

00:22:49.220 and certain members

00:22:50.820 of faculty

00:22:51.500 were challenged

00:22:52.680 and they were challenged

00:22:54.540 by Lindsay,

00:22:57.580 first of all,

00:22:58.400 saying,

00:22:59.060 you're saying things

00:22:59.920 that aren't true.

00:23:00.800 For example,

00:23:01.540 the professor said to her

00:23:03.000 that by airing a video

00:23:04.960 that it appeared

00:23:05.800 on public TV,

00:23:07.460 she'd actually committed

00:23:08.300 a hate crime,

00:23:09.020 which wasn't true.

00:23:10.400 Again,

00:23:10.780 here we have claims

00:23:11.960 that just are not based

00:23:13.200 in empirical fact.

00:23:14.980 So here we have

00:23:15.720 another case

00:23:16.360 just last week

00:23:18.580 or two weeks ago

00:23:19.400 when the president

00:23:21.620 of the university

00:23:22.340 says we've got

00:23:23.680 systemic racism

00:23:24.580 on campus,

00:23:25.440 creates a plan.

00:23:27.200 I don't know why

00:23:28.520 professors,

00:23:31.140 we've got 550

00:23:32.360 full-time professors

00:23:33.500 at Laurier,

00:23:34.780 and they're supposed

00:23:36.120 to be,

00:23:36.980 most of them,

00:23:38.120 expert in research

00:23:39.040 methodology.

00:23:40.660 Why did they not

00:23:42.000 look at the letter

00:23:42.720 in the same way

00:23:43.400 that Will McNally

00:23:44.280 and I did

00:23:44.880 and said,

00:23:46.040 this is just not

00:23:47.960 good scholarship.

00:23:49.680 This is just not

00:23:50.580 empirically backed

00:23:51.600 claims.

00:23:54.000 So,

00:23:55.440 we,

00:23:56.220 we've got,

00:23:58.360 this is worrying

00:23:59.320 because when professors

00:24:01.320 are willing

00:24:01.880 to let unjustified claims

00:24:03.580 be presented as fact,

00:24:05.580 the university

00:24:06.340 as an institution

00:24:07.480 is worthless.

00:24:08.740 only two professors,

00:24:11.880 Will and I,

00:24:12.440 questioned the

00:24:13.160 administration's claim

00:24:14.160 of systemic racism

00:24:15.320 on campus

00:24:17.200 in the absence

00:24:18.040 of a clear definition.

00:24:20.780 There wasn't even

00:24:21.320 a definition.

00:24:22.140 And in the absence

00:24:22.900 of empirical evidence,

00:24:24.640 where are the

00:24:25.180 other professors?

00:24:25.880 Yeah,

00:24:28.900 and that's the

00:24:29.520 big problem here.

00:24:30.500 I mean,

00:24:30.640 it used to be

00:24:31.280 not so long ago

00:24:32.280 when academic freedom

00:24:33.340 arose that there was,

00:24:35.080 for the most part,

00:24:36.080 I'd say,

00:24:36.820 enough of,

00:24:37.720 not even a collegiality,

00:24:40.080 but enough of a

00:24:40.720 self-awareness

00:24:41.500 that professors

00:24:42.180 would recognize,

00:24:43.140 hey,

00:24:43.320 even if I don't like

00:24:43.980 the work that

00:24:44.620 Haskell's doing

00:24:45.520 over there,

00:24:46.260 I know that if,

00:24:47.280 if I condemn that,

00:24:48.640 it could just as easily

00:24:49.400 be me that's condemned

00:24:50.360 next time around.

00:24:51.180 And,

00:24:51.480 and now that's not there.

00:24:53.420 I mean,

00:24:53.920 Western University,

00:24:55.020 for example,

00:24:55.520 where I went here

00:24:56.480 in London,

00:24:56.920 Ontario,

00:24:57.740 they've now

00:24:58.540 posthumously apologized

00:25:00.040 for the work

00:25:01.460 of one professor,

00:25:02.600 Philippe Rushton,

00:25:03.500 and,

00:25:03.600 you know,

00:25:03.960 controversial or not,

00:25:05.020 the idea that

00:25:05.800 schools that used

00:25:07.060 to protect tenure

00:25:08.320 and academic freedom

00:25:09.440 and academic inquiry

00:25:10.560 and all of these things

00:25:11.340 are now going

00:25:12.700 quite brazenly

00:25:13.800 in the other direction,

00:25:15.340 which is to say,

00:25:16.240 not just saying,

00:25:16.980 hey,

00:25:17.140 you know what,

00:25:17.520 we think that,

00:25:18.240 you know,

00:25:18.500 someone should challenge

00:25:19.320 this research,

00:25:19.960 but saying,

00:25:20.800 you don't have a right

00:25:21.480 to pursue this

00:25:22.340 or you don't have a right

00:25:23.320 to champion

00:25:23.920 this line

00:25:25.020 of questioning.

00:25:26.640 Right,

00:25:27.340 and it has

00:25:28.000 far-reaching implications.

00:25:30.720 You wonder

00:25:31.720 if a professor

00:25:33.820 or a group

00:25:34.420 of professors,

00:25:35.440 if faculty

00:25:36.020 at a university

00:25:36.900 are willing

00:25:38.820 to say

00:25:40.160 these,

00:25:42.320 this empirical data,

00:25:43.860 this factual material

00:25:45.920 cannot be published.

00:25:48.860 published,

00:25:49.620 so,

00:25:49.980 and they're attacking

00:25:50.840 their own fellow professors,

00:25:54.540 then,

00:25:55.400 what are they

00:25:57.880 not willing

00:25:58.980 to tell their students

00:26:00.060 in the classroom?

00:26:02.300 Is it only

00:26:03.120 politically correct messages

00:26:04.500 that our students

00:26:05.560 are going to be hearing?

00:26:07.260 Only messages

00:26:08.740 that our professors

00:26:10.740 think are agreeable?

00:26:13.180 Because if that's the case,

00:26:15.000 why go to university

00:26:16.360 if you're actually

00:26:17.920 not going to get

00:26:19.000 what might be

00:26:19.940 the most compelling research,

00:26:22.240 the most,

00:26:22.640 the most methodologically

00:26:24.720 sound research

00:26:25.680 on the chance

00:26:26.760 that it upset

00:26:27.580 someone,

00:26:29.080 well,

00:26:29.580 then university

00:26:30.340 just is worthless.

00:26:33.460 Where do you think

00:26:34.480 this goes from,

00:26:35.500 goes from here?

00:26:36.540 Because I do feel like

00:26:38.540 at a certain point,

00:26:40.000 I mean,

00:26:40.140 we see in the social justice world

00:26:42.060 a lot of cannibalization

00:26:43.980 on the left sometimes,

00:26:45.040 people that have been

00:26:46.000 able to check off

00:26:47.400 all the boxes

00:26:48.080 of being an ally

00:26:48.940 to this group,

00:26:49.600 to this group,

00:26:50.080 to this group,

00:26:50.580 they make one wrong step

00:26:51.720 and boom,

00:26:52.380 the mob turns on them.

00:26:53.960 Do you think in academia

00:26:55.280 the same sort of thing

00:26:56.340 will happen

00:26:56.860 in such a way

00:26:57.860 that there's enough time

00:26:59.040 for a collective pushback?

00:27:00.420 Perhaps some of the people

00:27:01.300 that have been adding fuel

00:27:02.300 to these fires

00:27:03.580 saying,

00:27:04.000 you know what,

00:27:04.420 we may have gone

00:27:05.260 a bit too far.

00:27:06.100 Do you think that ship

00:27:07.060 has sailed?

00:27:08.360 I really think,

00:27:09.900 sadly,

00:27:10.780 the ship has sailed.

00:27:11.860 There just is not

00:27:16.800 the will on campus

00:27:18.220 to push back

00:27:20.020 against this.

00:27:20.660 Again,

00:27:21.060 just using the Laurier example,

00:27:24.120 there are 550

00:27:25.280 full-time professors

00:27:26.200 who would have seen

00:27:27.040 there was no empirical evidence

00:27:28.620 to back

00:27:29.520 the president's claims

00:27:31.160 and only two professors

00:27:34.600 challenged it.

00:27:36.540 And here's the other thing.

00:27:37.460 apart from

00:27:39.740 a media outlet

00:27:42.900 in the United States,

00:27:44.380 you are the only

00:27:45.020 news organization

00:27:45.900 who thought

00:27:46.820 that this was important.

00:27:48.860 Wow.

00:27:49.480 Even the media,

00:27:50.460 and we've alerted media.

00:27:53.060 And if you can't

00:27:54.900 get the message out,

00:27:56.360 there's just not the will.

00:27:57.260 The media doesn't want

00:27:58.240 to talk about it,

00:27:59.400 that we have this crisis

00:28:01.160 in education

00:28:02.060 where empirical evidence

00:28:04.520 is being suppressed.

00:28:05.660 And then we've got

00:28:07.280 the crisis

00:28:08.020 in academia itself.

00:28:11.160 And where does it go

00:28:13.080 from here?

00:28:13.560 It will get worse.

00:28:15.080 And what we continue

00:28:16.260 to see

00:28:16.940 is that

00:28:18.360 the progressives,

00:28:20.540 and I'm using that term

00:28:22.580 not in a favorable way,

00:28:25.680 the left,

00:28:27.440 the far left

00:28:28.240 who have taken over

00:28:29.920 universities,

00:28:30.540 and by that,

00:28:31.420 this is an empirical fact

00:28:34.460 as well.

00:28:35.000 Joel Inberg

00:28:37.060 did a study

00:28:38.120 to see

00:28:38.680 what percentage,

00:28:40.740 and others,

00:28:41.360 by the way,

00:28:41.840 he's the only one

00:28:42.540 that comes to mind,

00:28:43.300 what percentage

00:28:43.880 of university professors

00:28:45.360 in North America

00:28:46.340 are conservative-leaning,

00:28:48.680 or libertarian,

00:28:49.820 or classical liberal,

00:28:51.280 and it's about 6%

00:28:52.480 and dwindling.

00:28:54.080 and when he asked

00:28:58.380 the people

00:28:58.720 who are self-identified

00:29:00.140 progressive

00:29:00.700 or liberal,

00:29:02.100 would you not hire,

00:29:04.520 would you purposely

00:29:05.380 sink a candidate

00:29:06.780 if you found out

00:29:07.800 they were conservative?

00:29:08.980 25% said yes,

00:29:10.880 and that was just

00:29:11.840 the 25% 0.98

00:29:12.820 who were willing

00:29:13.480 to say yes

00:29:14.520 because that's something

00:29:16.220 you don't want

00:29:16.680 to admit to.

00:29:18.580 The trouble is

00:29:19.860 we've lost

00:29:20.380 the universities,

00:29:21.180 or the reality

00:29:22.600 is we've lost

00:29:23.360 the universities,

00:29:24.500 and when nobody

00:29:25.660 is there to be

00:29:26.520 the counterpoint,

00:29:27.240 when you don't have

00:29:27.900 professors

00:29:29.000 who have

00:29:30.260 a different

00:29:31.160 set of ideas,

00:29:32.720 then you've got

00:29:34.200 a monolith,

00:29:35.220 and so the urge

00:29:36.440 is to just

00:29:37.480 get more of the same,

00:29:38.800 and power

00:29:39.760 corrupts,

00:29:40.900 absolutely,

00:29:41.520 we know this,

00:29:42.360 so we'll continue

00:29:43.620 to see these

00:29:44.660 linguistic traps,

00:29:46.580 and by that

00:29:47.280 what they'll do

00:29:47.740 is they'll corrupt

00:29:48.440 the definition

00:29:49.100 of a word,

00:29:49.720 this is the thing

00:29:50.340 that they're doing

00:29:50.960 just incessantly now,

00:29:53.740 repeatedly now,

00:29:54.760 they corrupt

00:29:55.400 the definition

00:29:56.020 of a word,

00:29:57.580 they take a word

00:29:58.540 like racism

00:29:59.520 that had meaning,

00:30:00.960 and it becomes

00:30:01.920 systemic racism,

00:30:03.280 and it doesn't mean

00:30:04.180 what you thought

00:30:04.840 it used to mean,

00:30:05.800 now it means

00:30:06.400 if there's a disparity,

00:30:07.700 if there's a difference

00:30:08.500 in numbers,

00:30:09.380 then suddenly

00:30:10.060 that implies

00:30:11.320 racism,

00:30:12.640 so they do this,

00:30:14.360 and they've done it

00:30:15.000 with things like,

00:30:17.000 well,

00:30:17.680 I can't be,

00:30:19.880 I wrote a paper

00:30:20.540 called Words Lose

00:30:21.620 Their Meaning

00:30:22.060 at Wilfrid Laurier,

00:30:23.160 so rather than

00:30:23.820 rehash that,

00:30:24.580 I'd just,

00:30:25.200 I'd say to the listeners,

00:30:26.720 take a look at that,

00:30:27.640 and you'll see

00:30:28.280 the numerous examples

00:30:29.520 where this has happened,

00:30:31.160 but it's a linguistic trap,

00:30:33.340 and it's going to get worse.

00:30:37.280 Yeah,

00:30:37.780 and I think

00:30:38.140 those wording things

00:30:39.440 are important,

00:30:40.060 because you never want

00:30:40.720 to get bogged down

00:30:41.520 in semantics,

00:30:42.180 but a lot of the time

00:30:43.140 when you cede

00:30:43.740 the language,

00:30:44.960 you end up

00:30:45.840 ceding a part

00:30:46.500 of the battle,

00:30:47.200 and I think

00:30:47.680 the racist thing

00:30:48.640 is a great example

00:30:49.900 of this,

00:30:50.340 because,

00:30:50.900 you know,

00:30:51.180 a lot of people

00:30:51.940 on the right,

00:30:52.500 certainly those

00:30:53.120 who work in new media

00:30:54.360 are used to being

00:30:55.320 called racist,

00:30:56.060 I mean,

00:30:56.300 this word that used

00:30:56.940 to carry a lot

00:30:57.540 of weight now

00:30:58.120 is,

00:30:58.700 you know,

00:30:59.020 like,

00:30:59.340 you know,

00:30:59.680 cookie or the word

00:31:01.280 and,

00:31:01.740 like,

00:31:01.940 it's just,

00:31:02.300 it's said,

00:31:02.780 and you don't

00:31:03.280 really think of it now,

00:31:04.180 but it does still

00:31:05.380 to people that aren't

00:31:06.200 in that world

00:31:06.700 have a lot of meaning,

00:31:07.640 and when you put

00:31:08.180 that qualifier on

00:31:09.380 systemic,

00:31:10.580 it means something

00:31:11.460 even more,

00:31:12.280 and,

00:31:12.460 you know,

00:31:12.680 systemic racism

00:31:13.620 ergo requires

00:31:14.680 systemic change,

00:31:16.020 so before people

00:31:17.140 have even,

00:31:17.760 to go back full circle

00:31:18.760 to how we started here,

00:31:19.780 before people have

00:31:20.900 even established

00:31:21.480 what that meant,

00:31:22.200 we're already

00:31:22.660 three steps ahead

00:31:23.620 on the action plan.

00:31:25.480 That's right,

00:31:26.360 without the definition

00:31:27.520 of racism itself,

00:31:29.300 and we see this,

00:31:31.360 this linguistic trap

00:31:34.160 that then makes you

00:31:35.660 not even,

00:31:36.700 you cannot question it,

00:31:38.720 right?

00:31:39.220 That's part

00:31:39.700 of the linguistic trap,

00:31:40.900 so now if I say,

00:31:43.100 well,

00:31:43.320 I'd like to see

00:31:43.900 the evidence

00:31:44.500 for systemic racism

00:31:45.700 on campus,

00:31:46.760 suddenly I'm a racist,

00:31:48.880 and this,

00:31:49.600 this is a really

00:31:50.500 clever linguistic trap

00:31:51.860 because it means

00:31:52.580 the other side

00:31:53.200 never has to prove it,

00:31:55.000 never has to supply

00:31:55.780 your own evidence.

00:31:56.480 Yeah,

00:31:57.000 prove that the system

00:31:57.840 is racist

00:31:58.440 because only a racist

00:31:59.480 system would allow 0.50

00:32:00.260 such questions.

00:32:01.940 Exactly.

00:32:02.940 Similarly,

00:32:03.820 we've seen what's

00:32:04.740 happened with white supremacy,

00:32:06.340 the word,

00:32:07.400 the word,

00:32:07.940 it used to mean

00:32:09.640 people who belonged

00:32:10.880 to the KKK,

00:32:12.400 really despicable people,

00:32:15.280 but it now means

00:32:16.660 every Judeo-Christian value

00:32:18.620 and all Western thought,

00:32:21.040 you know,

00:32:21.600 as it's used by people

00:32:23.280 who are promoting

00:32:23.900 critical race theory,

00:32:25.440 that now is

00:32:26.300 white supremacy,

00:32:27.660 and if that's

00:32:30.820 white supremacy,

00:32:32.060 what they're really

00:32:33.120 looking for

00:32:33.860 is to

00:32:35.420 destroy society

00:32:36.620 as we know it.

00:32:39.700 Well,

00:32:40.220 even if it is

00:32:40.820 just two of over

00:32:41.740 500 professors

00:32:42.700 speaking up,

00:32:43.520 I am so very grateful

00:32:44.880 you two are there.

00:32:46.580 David Haskell,

00:32:47.600 David Millard Haskell,

00:32:48.560 professor at

00:32:49.280 Laurier University,

00:32:50.280 a fantastic letter

00:32:51.140 written alongside

00:32:52.000 fellow professor

00:32:53.460 William McNally.

00:32:54.940 David,

00:32:55.420 thank you so much

00:32:56.080 for coming on today.

00:32:57.080 Really great talking

00:32:57.680 to you as always.

00:32:59.260 Yeah,

00:32:59.520 it's really appreciated,

00:33:00.560 sorry,

00:33:00.700 about the glitches.

00:33:02.000 Yeah,

00:33:02.260 no worries,

00:33:02.760 it happens.

00:33:03.340 Well,

00:33:03.520 nothing's going

00:33:03.980 to shut us up,

00:33:04.560 right?

00:33:06.200 Hopefully,

00:33:06.680 no.

00:33:07.300 That was David

00:33:08.420 Millard Haskell,

00:33:09.320 former People's Party

00:33:10.240 of Canada candidate

00:33:11.060 for Cambridge

00:33:11.780 and current

00:33:12.680 Laurier University

00:33:13.740 professor.

00:33:14.300 My thanks to David

00:33:15.160 for coming on

00:33:15.780 and also all of you

00:33:16.520 for tuning into the show.

00:33:18.060 Hope you have a very

00:33:19.260 happy Dominion Day

00:33:20.640 or Canada Day,

00:33:21.440 whichever you call it.

00:33:22.220 I hope it's Dominion Day,

00:33:23.200 but regardless,

00:33:24.100 I hope you enjoy it.

00:33:25.240 We will talk to you

00:33:26.260 next week.

00:33:26.800 Thank you,

00:33:27.260 God bless,

00:33:27.820 and good day,

00:33:28.320 Canada.

00:33:29.020 Thanks for listening

00:33:29.740 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:33:30.920 Support the program

00:33:32.000 by donating to

00:33:32.800 True North

00:33:33.220 at www.tnc.news.

00:33:36.620 Thank you.

00:33:37.620 Thank you.

00:33:37.760 Thank you.

00:33:37.800 Thank you.

00:33:37.820 Thank you.

00:33:37.880 Thank you.

Juno News - July 01, 2020

Mandatory Masks and Campus Censors

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