Juno News - July 01, 2020


Mandatory Masks and Campus Censors


Episode Stats

Length

33 minutes

Words per Minute

161.60365

Word Count

5,435

Sentence Count

262

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

2


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.960 Coming up, taxing you for working from home, mandatory masks, and the death of academic freedom.
00:00:21.480 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:25.060 Welcome to the Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:33.220 Hope you are having a wonderful Canada Day, or as we prefer to call it, Dominion Day.
00:00:38.240 No point in changing the name of something on account of trying to make it sound like a big sale event at your local superstore.
00:00:45.480 Dominion Day, the original name, that's how we know it here.
00:00:47.900 Then again, I'm also still, as I mentioned on Monday, missing the red ensign.
00:00:51.920 So, you'll have to accept if I'm a little bit outdated as far as what the new patriotic symbols and slogans are for Canada.
00:01:00.180 But regardless, hope you're enjoying a bit of a day off time with the family,
00:01:03.280 especially in light of what's happened in this country in the last few months and around the world.
00:01:08.400 One thing that is a bit of a warning, if you've been working from home, as I know so many have in the pandemic,
00:01:13.560 and you live in Calgary, the city of Calgary is looking to tax you just because you work from home.
00:01:19.940 So, just to put this in context, while everyone around the world is saying,
00:01:24.520 how do we deal with the economic effects and implications of coronavirus, of COVID-19,
00:01:30.080 the city of Calgary is saying, I've got an idea.
00:01:33.560 So, all these people that have to work from home, hit them with a tax.
00:01:36.720 This comes in a report that was published by Calgary's Financial Task Force,
00:01:42.580 which is anytime government has a task force, you know, it's never going to be all that good.
00:01:46.980 And they have this idea of bringing property taxation into the 21st century.
00:01:52.420 Now, again, they mean how to raise it.
00:01:54.640 That's exactly what they mean.
00:01:56.420 Because they say here, revenue sources for Canadian municipalities are limited.
00:02:00.640 So, they're trying to find ways that they can grow different revenue potential.
00:02:05.740 And they take a few pages to try to beat around the bush until they eventually say
00:02:10.360 that they need to modernize and adapt and do all of this
00:02:14.920 and find municipal revenue opportunities available through the digital economy.
00:02:20.660 And you scroll down way, way, way down, way, way, way down.
00:02:24.240 And you get to the very bottom, the last paragraph of the last recommendation
00:02:28.020 of the last page of this section.
00:02:29.900 So, right now, the big discussion everyone's having is whether people should continue to work
00:02:51.920 from home, which means more home offices, and you might save a bit of money on gas,
00:02:55.900 on parking, on work-life balance, may improve.
00:02:59.840 But don't worry, government will find a way to screw it up.
00:03:02.540 Because Calgary wants to do a home office tax.
00:03:06.580 Like, this is absurd to me.
00:03:09.040 Because if you own your home, you pay your property tax,
00:03:11.960 you're paying your water, your hydro.
00:03:13.780 It's not even like the city is giving you more for the privilege of staying home.
00:03:19.100 They just realize that, hey, commercial real estate,
00:03:22.200 which, by the way, is already in a terrible situation in Calgary.
00:03:25.720 Just take a look at Candace Malcolm's documentary with True North, Calgary in Crisis.
00:03:30.180 But they're saying that, oh, well, you know, we're going to have fewer corporate tenants.
00:03:33.340 We need to get some of this money back elsewhere.
00:03:35.680 Oh, yeah, you run a home daycare?
00:03:37.360 Boom, more property taxes.
00:03:38.860 You write blog posts from home?
00:03:40.480 More property taxes.
00:03:41.720 You do a podcast?
00:03:44.320 We're not in Calgary, Nancy.
00:03:45.740 You can't come after us here.
00:03:46.900 But never, never doubt government's way to, at the worst time,
00:03:51.240 put the worst possible proposal forward and, unfortunately, probably still get away from it.
00:03:56.220 Although, oddly, not the weirdest proposal or the worst proposal to come from a city council this week,
00:04:01.960 Toronto has decided to mandate masks indoors.
00:04:06.500 City council voted to make masks mandatory throughout the coronavirus pandemic.
00:04:10.960 And the goal here is that indoor public spaces must have people wearing these face coverings
00:04:17.000 so that we can prevent a second, third, 17th wave, wherever is coming next.
00:04:22.560 And, you know, the thing about this that I have to point out here,
00:04:25.180 and we talked about this going back to, I think, February,
00:04:28.120 we have gone from masks are dangerous, don't wear masks,
00:04:32.780 to, ah, well, okay, I guess if you really want to, you can wear a mask if it's going to make you feel better,
00:04:38.760 to, okay, all right, fine, you know, wear a mask,
00:04:42.740 to, all right, we're going to shame you if you don't,
00:04:45.100 to now we're going to prosecute you.
00:04:46.920 So in just three months, we've gone from masks are terrible,
00:04:49.840 don't you dare wear a mask,
00:04:51.440 to we're going to fine you up to $1,000 if you are indoors in Toronto and not wearing a mask.
00:04:57.680 Now, this may not, in fact, be constitutional.
00:04:59.760 The Canadian Constitution Foundation has put out a statement raising concerns about it.
00:05:05.480 They think that communities with mask orders are violating charter rights.
00:05:10.140 Guelph was the first one to do it.
00:05:12.140 I think that was last week or so.
00:05:14.640 And now that Toronto has,
00:05:16.360 I wouldn't be surprised if other communities started to follow suit.
00:05:20.000 So this is going to be pretty bad.
00:05:22.100 Now, I'm not anti-mask, by the way.
00:05:23.940 I mean, in my city, there aren't a lot of cases.
00:05:26.040 I don't go out all that much.
00:05:27.280 I wore a mask once, and that was when I was required to do it to get my hair cut.
00:05:31.420 And in that case, the businesses said this is the rule.
00:05:33.980 If a business says you must wear a mask to shop here,
00:05:37.060 I'm going to respect their right to do that,
00:05:38.980 and I'll make a decision accordingly.
00:05:41.240 But mandating masks, which is what city councils have done,
00:05:45.180 is really bad right now for two reasons.
00:05:48.740 First off, because it just shows that no one knows anything.
00:05:52.320 Everyone's making it up as they go along.
00:05:53.940 When Theresa Tam was saying, don't wear a mask,
00:05:56.840 and we were told to listen because she's the expert,
00:05:59.280 why are they any more correct now when they say,
00:06:02.100 oh, you've got to wear a mask?
00:06:04.040 And look, no denying masks were very helpful in places like Taiwan,
00:06:08.820 in Hong Kong, and South Korea.
00:06:10.640 Masks were how they prevented getting these massive waves initially.
00:06:14.740 But when in Canada, they're just coming around to it months after the fact,
00:06:19.940 it reeks of just being this, you know, attempt at grasping at straws,
00:06:23.940 an attempt to say that we know what's going on.
00:06:25.860 And I'm not one of these people that thinks a mask is a symbol of control.
00:06:30.020 I was actually very pro-mask earlier on,
00:06:32.440 and I wish the government had taken it seriously when it was important,
00:06:35.860 when we were still waiting for that curve to be so-called flattened.
00:06:40.220 But now the curve is flattened.
00:06:41.440 The curve has gone away.
00:06:42.320 The curve is not actually a curve.
00:06:44.060 The curve is just a flat line,
00:06:45.700 and we're still dealing with stuff like this.
00:06:48.240 So the idea of this becoming a permanent lockdown now
00:06:52.100 is what it seems like we're headed towards.
00:06:54.700 So John Tory says everyone in Toronto needs a mask.
00:06:57.560 Well, just this week,
00:06:58.500 the travel ban for Canada was extended another month until July 31st.
00:07:03.340 The longer this goes on,
00:07:05.080 the more people's patience will wear down.
00:07:07.960 And at a certain point,
00:07:09.300 you have to ask, what is it that we're waiting for?
00:07:11.860 What is it that we're waiting for?
00:07:13.400 When communities across the country are finding that things are under control,
00:07:17.320 things are fine,
00:07:18.380 why is it only three and a half months after the fact
00:07:21.680 that these discussions are taking place
00:07:24.000 when it starts to seem like things are on the right track?
00:07:27.820 So look, wear a mask, don't wear a mask.
00:07:29.840 I'm not going to publicly shame anyone one way or another.
00:07:32.720 I'm going to support businesses making their own determination.
00:07:35.620 But for City Council,
00:07:37.080 after their own medical officers
00:07:39.100 and the Canadian Medical Officers of Health
00:07:41.040 were saying, don't use masks for the longest time.
00:07:44.160 I'm just going to roll my eyes
00:07:45.220 and you'll be able to see it
00:07:46.440 because right now I'm not wearing a mask.
00:07:48.300 When we come back,
00:07:49.340 we'll talk about free speech and academic inquiry
00:07:51.780 with David Millard Haskell.
00:07:53.760 That's all up next on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:07:56.120 Stay tuned.
00:07:56.680 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:08:08.260 The big cultural battle of the month is
00:08:10.560 will you admit that whatever institution or country
00:08:13.560 you preside over is systemically racist?
00:08:15.920 Whether it's the RCMP, a political party,
00:08:18.900 Canada itself, universities, companies,
00:08:21.460 everyone has to say that everything is systemically racist.
00:08:24.600 And if you don't, you are just proving it
00:08:26.480 and that makes you a racist.
00:08:27.700 This is the theme we've been talking about
00:08:29.540 the last couple of shows
00:08:30.600 and more and more examples keep emerging of it.
00:08:33.340 Well, the latest on the list is Laurier University,
00:08:36.220 which the professor and president,
00:08:39.280 Deborah McClatchy, recognizes
00:08:41.080 has systemic racism on the campus.
00:08:44.100 She has said in a letter to the Laurier community
00:08:47.300 that Laurier needs to tackle its systemic racism
00:08:50.280 in the school and across the country.
00:08:52.780 And as such, Laurier has put forward an action plan
00:08:55.560 for equity, diversity, and inclusion and indigeneity.
00:08:59.400 Now, there may be nothing wrong
00:09:00.740 with some of the specific proposals that are called for,
00:09:03.900 but it's based on something
00:09:05.240 that hasn't actually been defined or established,
00:09:07.740 which is, is Laurier actually systemically racist?
00:09:11.620 And what does that mean?
00:09:12.880 Well, only a little bit of pushback.
00:09:14.680 Two professors, David Millard Haskell
00:09:16.440 and William McNally wrote an open letter saying,
00:09:19.300 well, hang on, you haven't defined it,
00:09:21.120 you haven't given any evidence,
00:09:22.420 and what you're calling for has much broader implications
00:09:25.520 than what you say it's about.
00:09:27.220 This letter, of course, making waves
00:09:29.360 because, well, like I said,
00:09:31.000 if you deny systemic racism,
00:09:32.420 you're part of the problem.
00:09:34.100 Fantastic letter.
00:09:35.100 It is published online at SAFS,
00:09:37.100 the Society for Academic Freedom and Scholarships website,
00:09:39.980 safs.ca.
00:09:41.180 One of the co-authors,
00:09:42.140 Professor David Millard Haskell,
00:09:43.880 joins me on the line now.
00:09:45.680 David, good to talk to you.
00:09:46.580 Thanks very much for coming on today.
00:09:48.200 It's my pleasure, Andrew.
00:09:49.180 Thanks for having me.
00:09:49.920 Now, it's not to say you've been a shrinking violet
00:09:52.520 from the free speech fight in general,
00:09:54.620 certainly not at Laurier University.
00:09:56.200 You were front and center
00:09:57.160 when the Lindsay Shepard controversy
00:09:59.560 happened a couple of years back
00:10:01.320 and you've continued to stand up for free speech.
00:10:03.980 But on this issue specifically,
00:10:05.720 why did you decide to stick your neck out,
00:10:08.240 especially in this climate
00:10:09.240 where everyone's getting canceled
00:10:10.420 and put some criticism and scrutiny
00:10:13.540 on this approach from your school's president?
00:10:16.380 Well, you know, you have to choose your battles
00:10:19.740 and both Will and I have been really concerned
00:10:24.260 about the drift within academia more generally,
00:10:28.360 but also the drift within our own university
00:10:32.060 where empirical evidence is no longer being used
00:10:36.580 in order to justify policies and messaging.
00:10:41.320 And it seems that ideological conclusions
00:10:45.980 are driving what is happening.
00:10:50.140 And these ideological conclusions
00:10:52.060 are based on good evidence.
00:10:53.540 So this was an example of this
00:10:55.080 where our president said that there was,
00:10:58.620 she made the suggestion
00:10:59.660 that systemic racism was on our campus.
00:11:03.580 And not only that,
00:11:04.980 she had an action plan to combat it.
00:11:08.200 And we just, we had to say, stop for a moment.
00:11:13.840 You're not basing this on evidence.
00:11:16.440 And so I think that there's a subtlety there even.
00:11:19.280 We're saying, we're looking for
00:11:23.060 your justification for the claim.
00:11:25.320 We're not even saying your claim is wrong at this point,
00:11:28.200 although the evidence that we've found
00:11:30.400 would suggest it is.
00:11:31.500 But what we want as a university,
00:11:35.460 as a place that makes its living,
00:11:39.200 trying to advance knowledge,
00:11:41.980 we want to see the evidence.
00:11:43.600 We want to talk about the evidence.
00:11:45.600 And so it was just standing up for the principle,
00:11:49.920 the principles that are supposed to be
00:11:51.940 the very life's blood of a university
00:11:53.980 that made us want to respond.
00:11:56.120 One of the points you and Professor McNally
00:11:58.100 raised in your letter,
00:11:59.140 which should have been an obvious one,
00:12:00.740 and it should have been the very first thing
00:12:02.580 that something like this would have addressed,
00:12:04.140 is the lack of a definition of systemic racism
00:12:07.580 or of racism in general.
00:12:09.680 And look, people may in their own minds
00:12:11.320 know what racism is by way of example.
00:12:13.840 Systemic racism is a bit more complex
00:12:15.880 and I think has a lot more baggage
00:12:18.340 and loading of that term, if I may.
00:12:21.420 And there's no definition of it.
00:12:23.560 McClatchy has said,
00:12:24.480 yes, the school is systemically racist,
00:12:25.960 but this did not come with an explanation
00:12:28.920 as to how.
00:12:29.960 And you point that out in your letter,
00:12:31.360 which, again,
00:12:32.040 and I am not downplaying what you're saying here,
00:12:34.300 it should have been an obvious question
00:12:35.720 that you raised,
00:12:36.820 but no one else was.
00:12:37.900 And the irony here in the logic,
00:12:41.120 Andrew,
00:12:41.460 is that part of her action plan
00:12:43.200 specifically says,
00:12:45.780 we need to define racism.
00:12:48.740 So she's admitted right there,
00:12:50.880 we don't have a definition,
00:12:52.740 and yet she said earlier
00:12:54.240 in this other missive
00:12:55.760 that we're systemically racist.
00:12:58.160 So that's the cart before the horse.
00:13:00.600 This isn't how you work the scientific method.
00:13:03.240 And my worry is
00:13:06.220 there was language within her email
00:13:09.500 that was referencing critical race theory,
00:13:12.880 which is an offsheet of critical theory
00:13:15.200 more generally.
00:13:16.860 And it has a lot of really
00:13:19.360 anti-academic ideas behind it.
00:13:25.800 They suggest things like
00:13:27.380 even empirical evidence
00:13:29.040 is really promoting whiteness
00:13:32.020 or white oppression
00:13:32.920 and this is right in the works
00:13:35.160 of critical race theorists.
00:13:36.780 And when you're saying
00:13:39.120 that empirical evidence
00:13:40.180 is oppression,
00:13:42.840 what else do we have?
00:13:44.400 What else do we have
00:13:45.480 that we've been using
00:13:46.280 since the Enlightenment
00:13:47.220 to actually try and get away
00:13:49.060 from issues of bias,
00:13:50.760 but instead try and advance
00:13:52.660 just neutral knowledge?
00:13:55.620 So with systemic racism,
00:13:59.980 what I'm worrying about
00:14:01.360 is that it doesn't look like racism
00:14:04.440 as we were taught, right?
00:14:06.660 Racism, when we were younger,
00:14:09.360 we were taught that
00:14:10.920 if you say something
00:14:12.660 that is negative
00:14:14.140 about someone's skin color
00:14:15.700 or about someone
00:14:16.740 because of their skin color,
00:14:18.100 if you had words or actions
00:14:20.480 that were directly discriminatory
00:14:22.240 related to someone's skin color,
00:14:24.380 that's racism.
00:14:25.240 And all of us agree
00:14:26.680 that's terrible.
00:14:28.560 It's sickening.
00:14:29.880 And we should stand against it.
00:14:31.760 But systemic racism,
00:14:33.140 it's this different thing.
00:14:34.380 And as I read the literature
00:14:35.680 and I read,
00:14:38.380 we'll talk maybe about
00:14:39.300 the single study
00:14:40.200 that Dr. McClatchy used
00:14:42.540 to justify this entire action plan.
00:14:46.340 Yeah, the being raced study.
00:14:48.280 I was going to ask about that.
00:14:50.260 So tell me why that's
00:14:51.280 such a dangerous part of this.
00:14:52.620 Well, because it in fact
00:14:54.820 explicitly says
00:14:55.780 we're using critical race theory
00:14:57.740 as the underpinnings
00:14:59.360 for the study.
00:15:00.900 And the idea of systemic racism
00:15:03.160 as it is applied
00:15:04.180 within critical race theory
00:15:05.460 is that any disparity,
00:15:07.700 any disparity where black people,
00:15:11.180 people of color
00:15:11.940 or other people of color
00:15:13.040 are at a disadvantage
00:15:15.040 where the numbers
00:15:17.080 are negatively against them,
00:15:19.000 that in and of itself is racism.
00:15:21.120 Well, that's the fallacy
00:15:23.180 of saying that
00:15:23.980 correlation equals causation.
00:15:26.720 And every researcher
00:15:28.420 knows you don't do that.
00:15:30.040 And yet here we have
00:15:30.760 a university promoting this idea,
00:15:33.800 this very anti-intellectual idea.
00:15:37.400 So it's worrying.
00:15:39.400 It's worrying when the keepers
00:15:41.140 of knowledge abandon their job.
00:15:44.280 Yeah, and that's one
00:15:47.600 of the big things.
00:15:48.560 And I know this is not
00:15:49.300 an academic point
00:15:50.860 that I'm about to address here.
00:15:52.120 But when we saw last week,
00:15:53.880 for example,
00:15:54.400 the RCMP commissioner,
00:15:55.600 Brenda Luckey,
00:15:56.240 say the RCMP is systemically racist
00:15:58.480 and failed to come up
00:15:59.760 with an explanation
00:16:00.780 for how she's reached that
00:16:02.120 and, you know,
00:16:02.920 ended up passing the question
00:16:04.020 off somewhere else.
00:16:05.200 There's something that we see
00:16:06.680 right now in this culture.
00:16:08.240 And I know we're going to talk
00:16:09.260 a little bit more
00:16:09.900 about some of these broader issues,
00:16:11.660 but where people are committed
00:16:13.940 to the outcome
00:16:15.060 before they even go
00:16:16.200 through that process.
00:16:17.060 So that's no different
00:16:17.960 than McClatchy saying that,
00:16:20.600 yes, we're systemically racist.
00:16:21.780 And one of the things
00:16:22.820 we're going to do
00:16:23.240 is come up with a definition
00:16:24.240 of what racism means.
00:16:26.180 It's like they know
00:16:27.320 that this is the right thing to say
00:16:29.080 or the so-called woke thing to say
00:16:31.000 and whatever other processes
00:16:33.240 they need to go through
00:16:34.120 to get to that point,
00:16:35.100 they're going to go through.
00:16:35.920 But they've already determined
00:16:37.180 that's where they're going with it.
00:16:39.000 Right.
00:16:39.200 And it short circuits
00:16:40.280 what actually is
00:16:41.380 the scientific method
00:16:42.500 because we want to test
00:16:44.900 and retest.
00:16:46.420 And so what actually happens
00:16:48.720 when you begin to investigate
00:16:50.720 this notion of systemic racism?
00:16:53.720 So if you're listening to people
00:16:55.780 talk about systemic racism,
00:16:57.140 especially in the context
00:16:58.620 of the George Floyd death,
00:17:00.940 they often talk about it
00:17:02.300 in terms of policing.
00:17:04.120 But Will and I,
00:17:06.580 in our letter even,
00:17:07.940 we said the best empirical evidence
00:17:10.260 shows that really
00:17:12.120 the shooting of black people
00:17:14.080 is not racially motivated.
00:17:16.520 We've got Roland Fryer
00:17:18.660 at Harvard
00:17:19.200 has done studies from 2018
00:17:21.660 and some of the most current work
00:17:22.920 we have that shows
00:17:24.400 there is not evidence
00:17:26.360 of this racial motivation.
00:17:29.360 Another fellow
00:17:29.960 at Michigan State University
00:17:32.760 from 2019,
00:17:34.900 Joseph Cesaro.
00:17:37.660 I think I'm getting
00:17:38.860 his name right.
00:17:40.040 But he did a nationwide
00:17:41.360 wide study.
00:17:42.860 And he said,
00:17:43.360 listen,
00:17:44.580 it's a fact that
00:17:45.920 a black man in America
00:17:47.820 is more apt
00:17:48.980 to be shot
00:17:49.620 by a black police officer
00:17:51.560 than a white police officer.
00:17:53.540 There just isn't proof
00:17:55.280 that this is racially motivated.
00:17:57.800 So I look at that
00:17:58.780 and I say,
00:17:59.740 I want to know
00:18:01.340 if there is
00:18:02.300 some kind of racism happening.
00:18:04.860 And let's stick
00:18:05.840 with the police.
00:18:06.760 I want to know about it
00:18:07.960 so we can fix it.
00:18:09.420 But these claims
00:18:10.520 that are not based on evidence
00:18:11.820 aren't getting us anywhere.
00:18:13.620 Well, they're getting us
00:18:14.920 into a very dangerous place,
00:18:17.180 a place that is not
00:18:18.060 based on evidence,
00:18:19.360 but it's based on a lot
00:18:20.580 of thoughts
00:18:22.760 about doing things
00:18:24.060 that are pretty hostile.
00:18:25.400 And you point out
00:18:27.100 in your letter
00:18:27.600 something here.
00:18:28.780 If this research
00:18:29.880 was presented in class,
00:18:31.220 it might be perceived
00:18:32.280 as, quote,
00:18:33.060 invalidating racialized
00:18:34.740 people's experience
00:18:35.760 of racism, unquote.
00:18:37.000 Now, I should say,
00:18:37.880 I haven't read
00:18:38.580 Friar's research.
00:18:39.800 It could be that
00:18:40.380 there's a scientific point
00:18:42.420 to be debated there
00:18:43.380 that you could,
00:18:43.980 you know,
00:18:44.500 take aim through
00:18:45.100 the scientific method
00:18:46.100 at his findings,
00:18:47.320 his methodology,
00:18:48.200 whatever else you'd like.
00:18:49.980 But you raise a point there
00:18:51.580 that I don't think
00:18:52.140 anyone can disagree,
00:18:53.080 that there would be
00:18:53.840 lots of people lined up,
00:18:55.040 including at academic
00:18:55.940 institutions,
00:18:56.580 to have the discussion
00:18:58.320 of that research
00:18:59.100 taken off the table
00:19:00.000 because of how it
00:19:00.940 might make people feel.
00:19:02.880 And thanks for bringing
00:19:03.720 that up because really
00:19:04.560 you've hit the nail
00:19:05.780 on the head.
00:19:06.160 This is what we're
00:19:07.040 really concerned about.
00:19:08.480 So the implications
00:19:09.680 of what our president
00:19:11.720 was saying
00:19:12.240 and also the study
00:19:13.460 that she cites,
00:19:14.280 the study itself,
00:19:15.040 it was called
00:19:15.400 Being Raced.
00:19:16.320 It was produced
00:19:17.040 by some undergraduate
00:19:18.420 students under the
00:19:19.440 tutelage of some
00:19:21.020 mentors who are professors
00:19:22.260 and also people
00:19:23.080 from the diversity
00:19:23.800 and equity authors.
00:19:25.400 And the study itself,
00:19:27.740 it's a phenomenological study.
00:19:30.540 It's not,
00:19:32.000 it wasn't,
00:19:32.840 it wasn't a properly
00:19:34.420 chosen sample
00:19:35.300 in order to generalize
00:19:37.180 from it.
00:19:37.980 It was also
00:19:39.040 of the sort
00:19:41.380 that said anything
00:19:42.200 that our participants
00:19:43.340 say is racism,
00:19:45.360 we are going
00:19:46.060 to not question it.
00:19:47.640 And that's fine
00:19:48.840 for lived experience,
00:19:50.240 but that's not fine
00:19:51.540 when you're going
00:19:52.140 to generate policy.
00:19:54.300 So back to this,
00:19:56.200 this notion
00:19:57.140 about what that study
00:19:59.220 also said,
00:20:00.100 that study made
00:20:01.180 some claims
00:20:01.800 that said
00:20:02.700 from their perspective,
00:20:05.500 if a professor,
00:20:07.220 they called it
00:20:07.880 a faculty perpetrator,
00:20:09.680 if a professor
00:20:10.820 were to quote
00:20:12.220 from a study
00:20:12.980 that went against
00:20:15.160 the lived experience
00:20:17.800 of a student,
00:20:19.860 and even if that,
00:20:21.100 even if the professor
00:20:22.180 is quoting peer-reviewed
00:20:24.140 excellent research,
00:20:25.100 but it's going
00:20:25.700 against the lived experience
00:20:27.740 of the student
00:20:28.300 in the classroom,
00:20:29.300 that's racism.
00:20:30.160 Well, suddenly,
00:20:32.260 you can't quote
00:20:33.040 those studies.
00:20:35.180 And we have to,
00:20:38.680 as an institution,
00:20:39.880 realize that we're
00:20:41.160 going to say things
00:20:42.020 that make people
00:20:42.600 uncomfortable.
00:20:44.300 That's what happens
00:20:44.980 in a democracy,
00:20:46.280 that's what happens
00:20:47.080 in,
00:20:48.100 should happen
00:20:48.740 in a university
00:20:49.440 where academic freedom
00:20:50.540 is present.
00:20:51.960 Now,
00:20:52.700 I'm all for being simple,
00:20:54.700 but absolutely,
00:20:55.880 we cannot stop
00:20:57.180 talking about facts
00:20:59.220 simply because
00:21:00.040 they make people
00:21:00.600 uncomfortable.
00:21:01.640 We are having
00:21:02.620 a little bit
00:21:03.480 of a technical glitch here.
00:21:04.900 We were able
00:21:05.260 to solve one,
00:21:06.000 but we created another.
00:21:07.160 So we've switched
00:21:07.940 over to the phone now.
00:21:09.620 David Haskell,
00:21:10.280 thanks for sticking
00:21:11.100 with us here.
00:21:12.120 The recording system
00:21:13.700 has already decided
00:21:14.460 to take an early
00:21:15.460 Canada Day holiday here.
00:21:17.300 We were talking,
00:21:18.280 though,
00:21:18.480 about a lot of the,
00:21:20.420 I'll say frankly,
00:21:21.520 shoddy research
00:21:22.640 or non-existent research
00:21:24.300 that's going into
00:21:25.360 a lot of these declarations.
00:21:26.980 And I appreciate
00:21:27.860 something you mentioned
00:21:28.720 earlier.
00:21:29.220 Which is to say
00:21:29.780 that you're not
00:21:30.220 even discounting
00:21:31.020 that racism
00:21:31.640 or systemic racism
00:21:32.720 exists on campus.
00:21:34.320 You're saying
00:21:34.920 that there is no basis
00:21:36.260 for the school's
00:21:37.760 president to make
00:21:38.920 those claims.
00:21:40.040 And I wanted to ask you
00:21:41.040 because I thought
00:21:41.740 that, you know,
00:21:42.500 there was a bit
00:21:43.180 of a glimmer of hope
00:21:44.080 a couple of years back
00:21:45.040 when Lindsay Shepard,
00:21:46.340 I think,
00:21:46.820 exposed a lot
00:21:47.660 of what was going on.
00:21:48.600 And you were front
00:21:49.920 and center on that battle
00:21:50.900 as was your co-author
00:21:52.060 of this letter,
00:21:53.120 Dr. McNally.
00:21:54.400 And we fast forward
00:21:55.500 to the present time
00:21:57.300 and it seems like,
00:21:58.420 you know,
00:21:59.040 any step you took forward
00:22:00.620 was met with two
00:22:01.700 or three steps back.
00:22:03.100 So how do you think
00:22:04.120 that the campus
00:22:05.000 by and large
00:22:06.040 is responding
00:22:07.380 to this sort of thing?
00:22:08.240 Because when you're
00:22:09.020 making a claim
00:22:09.780 that a school community
00:22:11.020 is systemically racist,
00:22:12.560 you're basically saying
00:22:13.940 that everyone
00:22:14.600 who is responsible
00:22:15.860 for making up
00:22:16.600 that campus
00:22:17.160 isn't somehow,
00:22:18.260 in some way,
00:22:19.020 complicit in racism.
00:22:20.240 Yeah, well,
00:22:22.680 that is the implication there
00:22:24.320 and it is,
00:22:25.800 again,
00:22:26.260 that's an incredibly
00:22:28.620 pejorative thing
00:22:30.240 to say
00:22:30.820 about a campus
00:22:31.960 without having
00:22:33.720 quantitative,
00:22:35.260 empirical data
00:22:36.060 to back it up.
00:22:37.440 And my worry,
00:22:40.380 and you were drawing
00:22:41.500 in the history
00:22:42.200 about where Laurier
00:22:44.240 has been
00:22:44.840 and how,
00:22:46.400 in the Lindsay Shepard affair,
00:22:48.320 our administration
00:22:49.220 and certain members
00:22:50.820 of faculty
00:22:51.500 were challenged
00:22:52.680 and they were challenged
00:22:54.540 by Lindsay,
00:22:57.580 first of all,
00:22:58.400 saying,
00:22:59.060 you're saying things
00:22:59.920 that aren't true.
00:23:00.800 For example,
00:23:01.540 the professor said to her
00:23:03.000 that by airing a video
00:23:04.960 that it appeared
00:23:05.800 on public TV,
00:23:07.460 she'd actually committed
00:23:08.300 a hate crime,
00:23:09.020 which wasn't true.
00:23:10.400 Again,
00:23:10.780 here we have claims
00:23:11.960 that just are not based
00:23:13.200 in empirical fact.
00:23:14.980 So here we have
00:23:15.720 another case
00:23:16.360 just last week
00:23:18.580 or two weeks ago
00:23:19.400 when the president
00:23:21.620 of the university
00:23:22.340 says we've got
00:23:23.680 systemic racism
00:23:24.580 on campus,
00:23:25.440 creates a plan.
00:23:27.200 I don't know why
00:23:28.520 professors,
00:23:31.140 we've got 550
00:23:32.360 full-time professors
00:23:33.500 at Laurier,
00:23:34.780 and they're supposed
00:23:36.120 to be,
00:23:36.980 most of them,
00:23:38.120 expert in research
00:23:39.040 methodology.
00:23:40.660 Why did they not
00:23:42.000 look at the letter
00:23:42.720 in the same way
00:23:43.400 that Will McNally
00:23:44.280 and I did
00:23:44.880 and said,
00:23:46.040 this is just not
00:23:47.960 good scholarship.
00:23:49.680 This is just not
00:23:50.580 empirically backed
00:23:51.600 claims.
00:23:54.000 So,
00:23:55.440 we,
00:23:56.220 we've got,
00:23:58.360 this is worrying
00:23:59.320 because when professors
00:24:01.320 are willing
00:24:01.880 to let unjustified claims
00:24:03.580 be presented as fact,
00:24:05.580 the university
00:24:06.340 as an institution
00:24:07.480 is worthless.
00:24:08.740 only two professors,
00:24:11.880 Will and I,
00:24:12.440 questioned the
00:24:13.160 administration's claim
00:24:14.160 of systemic racism
00:24:15.320 on campus
00:24:17.200 in the absence
00:24:18.040 of a clear definition.
00:24:20.780 There wasn't even
00:24:21.320 a definition.
00:24:22.140 And in the absence
00:24:22.900 of empirical evidence,
00:24:24.640 where are the
00:24:25.180 other professors?
00:24:25.880 Yeah,
00:24:28.900 and that's the
00:24:29.520 big problem here.
00:24:30.500 I mean,
00:24:30.640 it used to be
00:24:31.280 not so long ago
00:24:32.280 when academic freedom
00:24:33.340 arose that there was,
00:24:35.080 for the most part,
00:24:36.080 I'd say,
00:24:36.820 enough of,
00:24:37.720 not even a collegiality,
00:24:40.080 but enough of a
00:24:40.720 self-awareness
00:24:41.500 that professors
00:24:42.180 would recognize,
00:24:43.140 hey,
00:24:43.320 even if I don't like
00:24:43.980 the work that
00:24:44.620 Haskell's doing
00:24:45.520 over there,
00:24:46.260 I know that if,
00:24:47.280 if I condemn that,
00:24:48.640 it could just as easily
00:24:49.400 be me that's condemned
00:24:50.360 next time around.
00:24:51.180 And,
00:24:51.480 and now that's not there.
00:24:53.420 I mean,
00:24:53.920 Western University,
00:24:55.020 for example,
00:24:55.520 where I went here
00:24:56.480 in London,
00:24:56.920 Ontario,
00:24:57.740 they've now
00:24:58.540 posthumously apologized
00:25:00.040 for the work
00:25:01.460 of one professor,
00:25:02.600 Philippe Rushton,
00:25:03.500 and,
00:25:03.600 you know,
00:25:03.960 controversial or not,
00:25:05.020 the idea that
00:25:05.800 schools that used
00:25:07.060 to protect tenure
00:25:08.320 and academic freedom
00:25:09.440 and academic inquiry
00:25:10.560 and all of these things
00:25:11.340 are now going
00:25:12.700 quite brazenly
00:25:13.800 in the other direction,
00:25:15.340 which is to say,
00:25:16.240 not just saying,
00:25:16.980 hey,
00:25:17.140 you know what,
00:25:17.520 we think that,
00:25:18.240 you know,
00:25:18.500 someone should challenge
00:25:19.320 this research,
00:25:19.960 but saying,
00:25:20.800 you don't have a right
00:25:21.480 to pursue this
00:25:22.340 or you don't have a right
00:25:23.320 to champion
00:25:23.920 this line
00:25:25.020 of questioning.
00:25:26.640 Right,
00:25:27.340 and it has
00:25:28.000 far-reaching implications.
00:25:30.720 You wonder
00:25:31.720 if a professor
00:25:33.820 or a group
00:25:34.420 of professors,
00:25:35.440 if faculty
00:25:36.020 at a university
00:25:36.900 are willing
00:25:38.820 to say
00:25:40.160 these,
00:25:42.320 this empirical data,
00:25:43.860 this factual material
00:25:45.920 cannot be published.
00:25:48.860 published,
00:25:49.620 so,
00:25:49.980 and they're attacking
00:25:50.840 their own fellow professors,
00:25:54.540 then,
00:25:55.400 what are they
00:25:57.880 not willing
00:25:58.980 to tell their students
00:26:00.060 in the classroom?
00:26:02.300 Is it only
00:26:03.120 politically correct messages
00:26:04.500 that our students
00:26:05.560 are going to be hearing?
00:26:07.260 Only messages
00:26:08.740 that our professors
00:26:10.740 think are agreeable?
00:26:13.180 Because if that's the case,
00:26:15.000 why go to university
00:26:16.360 if you're actually
00:26:17.920 not going to get
00:26:19.000 what might be
00:26:19.940 the most compelling research,
00:26:22.240 the most,
00:26:22.640 the most methodologically
00:26:24.720 sound research
00:26:25.680 on the chance
00:26:26.760 that it upset
00:26:27.580 someone,
00:26:29.080 well,
00:26:29.580 then university
00:26:30.340 just is worthless.
00:26:33.460 Where do you think
00:26:34.480 this goes from,
00:26:35.500 goes from here?
00:26:36.540 Because I do feel like
00:26:38.540 at a certain point,
00:26:40.000 I mean,
00:26:40.140 we see in the social justice world
00:26:42.060 a lot of cannibalization
00:26:43.980 on the left sometimes,
00:26:45.040 people that have been
00:26:46.000 able to check off
00:26:47.400 all the boxes
00:26:48.080 of being an ally
00:26:48.940 to this group,
00:26:49.600 to this group,
00:26:50.080 to this group,
00:26:50.580 they make one wrong step
00:26:51.720 and boom,
00:26:52.380 the mob turns on them.
00:26:53.960 Do you think in academia
00:26:55.280 the same sort of thing
00:26:56.340 will happen
00:26:56.860 in such a way
00:26:57.860 that there's enough time
00:26:59.040 for a collective pushback?
00:27:00.420 Perhaps some of the people
00:27:01.300 that have been adding fuel
00:27:02.300 to these fires
00:27:03.580 saying,
00:27:04.000 you know what,
00:27:04.420 we may have gone
00:27:05.260 a bit too far.
00:27:06.100 Do you think that ship
00:27:07.060 has sailed?
00:27:08.360 I really think,
00:27:09.900 sadly,
00:27:10.780 the ship has sailed.
00:27:11.860 There just is not
00:27:16.800 the will on campus
00:27:18.220 to push back
00:27:20.020 against this.
00:27:20.660 Again,
00:27:21.060 just using the Laurier example,
00:27:24.120 there are 550
00:27:25.280 full-time professors
00:27:26.200 who would have seen
00:27:27.040 there was no empirical evidence
00:27:28.620 to back
00:27:29.520 the president's claims
00:27:31.160 and only two professors
00:27:34.600 challenged it.
00:27:36.540 And here's the other thing.
00:27:37.460 apart from
00:27:39.740 a media outlet
00:27:42.900 in the United States,
00:27:44.380 you are the only
00:27:45.020 news organization
00:27:45.900 who thought
00:27:46.820 that this was important.
00:27:48.860 Wow.
00:27:49.480 Even the media,
00:27:50.460 and we've alerted media.
00:27:53.060 And if you can't
00:27:54.900 get the message out,
00:27:56.360 there's just not the will.
00:27:57.260 The media doesn't want
00:27:58.240 to talk about it,
00:27:59.400 that we have this crisis
00:28:01.160 in education
00:28:02.060 where empirical evidence
00:28:04.520 is being suppressed.
00:28:05.660 And then we've got
00:28:07.280 the crisis
00:28:08.020 in academia itself.
00:28:11.160 And where does it go
00:28:13.080 from here?
00:28:13.560 It will get worse.
00:28:15.080 And what we continue
00:28:16.260 to see
00:28:16.940 is that
00:28:18.360 the progressives,
00:28:20.540 and I'm using that term
00:28:22.580 not in a favorable way,
00:28:25.680 the left,
00:28:27.440 the far left
00:28:28.240 who have taken over
00:28:29.920 universities,
00:28:30.540 and by that,
00:28:31.420 this is an empirical fact
00:28:34.460 as well.
00:28:35.000 Joel Inberg
00:28:37.060 did a study
00:28:38.120 to see
00:28:38.680 what percentage,
00:28:40.740 and others,
00:28:41.360 by the way,
00:28:41.840 he's the only one
00:28:42.540 that comes to mind,
00:28:43.300 what percentage
00:28:43.880 of university professors
00:28:45.360 in North America
00:28:46.340 are conservative-leaning,
00:28:48.680 or libertarian,
00:28:49.820 or classical liberal,
00:28:51.280 and it's about 6%
00:28:52.480 and dwindling.
00:28:54.080 and when he asked
00:28:58.380 the people
00:28:58.720 who are self-identified
00:29:00.140 progressive
00:29:00.700 or liberal,
00:29:02.100 would you not hire,
00:29:04.520 would you purposely
00:29:05.380 sink a candidate
00:29:06.780 if you found out
00:29:07.800 they were conservative?
00:29:08.980 25% said yes,
00:29:10.880 and that was just
00:29:11.840 the 25%
00:29:12.820 who were willing
00:29:13.480 to say yes
00:29:14.520 because that's something
00:29:16.220 you don't want
00:29:16.680 to admit to.
00:29:18.580 The trouble is
00:29:19.860 we've lost
00:29:20.380 the universities,
00:29:21.180 or the reality
00:29:22.600 is we've lost
00:29:23.360 the universities,
00:29:24.500 and when nobody
00:29:25.660 is there to be
00:29:26.520 the counterpoint,
00:29:27.240 when you don't have
00:29:27.900 professors
00:29:29.000 who have
00:29:30.260 a different
00:29:31.160 set of ideas,
00:29:32.720 then you've got
00:29:34.200 a monolith,
00:29:35.220 and so the urge
00:29:36.440 is to just
00:29:37.480 get more of the same,
00:29:38.800 and power
00:29:39.760 corrupts,
00:29:40.900 absolutely,
00:29:41.520 we know this,
00:29:42.360 so we'll continue
00:29:43.620 to see these
00:29:44.660 linguistic traps,
00:29:46.580 and by that
00:29:47.280 what they'll do
00:29:47.740 is they'll corrupt
00:29:48.440 the definition
00:29:49.100 of a word,
00:29:49.720 this is the thing
00:29:50.340 that they're doing
00:29:50.960 just incessantly now,
00:29:53.740 repeatedly now,
00:29:54.760 they corrupt
00:29:55.400 the definition
00:29:56.020 of a word,
00:29:57.580 they take a word
00:29:58.540 like racism
00:29:59.520 that had meaning,
00:30:00.960 and it becomes
00:30:01.920 systemic racism,
00:30:03.280 and it doesn't mean
00:30:04.180 what you thought
00:30:04.840 it used to mean,
00:30:05.800 now it means
00:30:06.400 if there's a disparity,
00:30:07.700 if there's a difference
00:30:08.500 in numbers,
00:30:09.380 then suddenly
00:30:10.060 that implies
00:30:11.320 racism,
00:30:12.640 so they do this,
00:30:14.360 and they've done it
00:30:15.000 with things like,
00:30:17.000 well,
00:30:17.680 I can't be,
00:30:19.880 I wrote a paper
00:30:20.540 called Words Lose
00:30:21.620 Their Meaning
00:30:22.060 at Wilfrid Laurier,
00:30:23.160 so rather than
00:30:23.820 rehash that,
00:30:24.580 I'd just,
00:30:25.200 I'd say to the listeners,
00:30:26.720 take a look at that,
00:30:27.640 and you'll see
00:30:28.280 the numerous examples
00:30:29.520 where this has happened,
00:30:31.160 but it's a linguistic trap,
00:30:33.340 and it's going to get worse.
00:30:37.280 Yeah,
00:30:37.780 and I think
00:30:38.140 those wording things
00:30:39.440 are important,
00:30:40.060 because you never want
00:30:40.720 to get bogged down
00:30:41.520 in semantics,
00:30:42.180 but a lot of the time
00:30:43.140 when you cede
00:30:43.740 the language,
00:30:44.960 you end up
00:30:45.840 ceding a part
00:30:46.500 of the battle,
00:30:47.200 and I think
00:30:47.680 the racist thing
00:30:48.640 is a great example
00:30:49.900 of this,
00:30:50.340 because,
00:30:50.900 you know,
00:30:51.180 a lot of people
00:30:51.940 on the right,
00:30:52.500 certainly those
00:30:53.120 who work in new media
00:30:54.360 are used to being
00:30:55.320 called racist,
00:30:56.060 I mean,
00:30:56.300 this word that used
00:30:56.940 to carry a lot
00:30:57.540 of weight now
00:30:58.120 is,
00:30:58.700 you know,
00:30:59.020 like,
00:30:59.340 you know,
00:30:59.680 cookie or the word
00:31:01.280 and,
00:31:01.740 like,
00:31:01.940 it's just,
00:31:02.300 it's said,
00:31:02.780 and you don't
00:31:03.280 really think of it now,
00:31:04.180 but it does still
00:31:05.380 to people that aren't
00:31:06.200 in that world
00:31:06.700 have a lot of meaning,
00:31:07.640 and when you put
00:31:08.180 that qualifier on
00:31:09.380 systemic,
00:31:10.580 it means something
00:31:11.460 even more,
00:31:12.280 and,
00:31:12.460 you know,
00:31:12.680 systemic racism
00:31:13.620 ergo requires
00:31:14.680 systemic change,
00:31:16.020 so before people
00:31:17.140 have even,
00:31:17.760 to go back full circle
00:31:18.760 to how we started here,
00:31:19.780 before people have
00:31:20.900 even established
00:31:21.480 what that meant,
00:31:22.200 we're already
00:31:22.660 three steps ahead
00:31:23.620 on the action plan.
00:31:25.480 That's right,
00:31:26.360 without the definition
00:31:27.520 of racism itself,
00:31:29.300 and we see this,
00:31:31.360 this linguistic trap
00:31:34.160 that then makes you
00:31:35.660 not even,
00:31:36.700 you cannot question it,
00:31:38.720 right?
00:31:39.220 That's part
00:31:39.700 of the linguistic trap,
00:31:40.900 so now if I say,
00:31:43.100 well,
00:31:43.320 I'd like to see
00:31:43.900 the evidence
00:31:44.500 for systemic racism
00:31:45.700 on campus,
00:31:46.760 suddenly I'm a racist,
00:31:48.880 and this,
00:31:49.600 this is a really
00:31:50.500 clever linguistic trap
00:31:51.860 because it means
00:31:52.580 the other side
00:31:53.200 never has to prove it,
00:31:55.000 never has to supply
00:31:55.780 your own evidence.
00:31:56.480 Yeah,
00:31:57.000 prove that the system
00:31:57.840 is racist
00:31:58.440 because only a racist
00:31:59.480 system would allow
00:32:00.260 such questions.
00:32:01.940 Exactly.
00:32:02.940 Similarly,
00:32:03.820 we've seen what's
00:32:04.740 happened with white supremacy,
00:32:06.340 the word,
00:32:07.400 the word,
00:32:07.940 it used to mean
00:32:09.640 people who belonged
00:32:10.880 to the KKK,
00:32:12.400 really despicable people,
00:32:15.280 but it now means
00:32:16.660 every Judeo-Christian value
00:32:18.620 and all Western thought,
00:32:21.040 you know,
00:32:21.600 as it's used by people
00:32:23.280 who are promoting
00:32:23.900 critical race theory,
00:32:25.440 that now is
00:32:26.300 white supremacy,
00:32:27.660 and if that's
00:32:30.820 white supremacy,
00:32:32.060 what they're really
00:32:33.120 looking for
00:32:33.860 is to
00:32:35.420 destroy society
00:32:36.620 as we know it.
00:32:39.700 Well,
00:32:40.220 even if it is
00:32:40.820 just two of over
00:32:41.740 500 professors
00:32:42.700 speaking up,
00:32:43.520 I am so very grateful
00:32:44.880 you two are there.
00:32:46.580 David Haskell,
00:32:47.600 David Millard Haskell,
00:32:48.560 professor at
00:32:49.280 Laurier University,
00:32:50.280 a fantastic letter
00:32:51.140 written alongside
00:32:52.000 fellow professor
00:32:53.460 William McNally.
00:32:54.940 David,
00:32:55.420 thank you so much
00:32:56.080 for coming on today.
00:32:57.080 Really great talking
00:32:57.680 to you as always.
00:32:59.260 Yeah,
00:32:59.520 it's really appreciated,
00:33:00.560 sorry,
00:33:00.700 about the glitches.
00:33:02.000 Yeah,
00:33:02.260 no worries,
00:33:02.760 it happens.
00:33:03.340 Well,
00:33:03.520 nothing's going
00:33:03.980 to shut us up,
00:33:04.560 right?
00:33:06.200 Hopefully,
00:33:06.680 no.
00:33:07.300 That was David
00:33:08.420 Millard Haskell,
00:33:09.320 former People's Party
00:33:10.240 of Canada candidate
00:33:11.060 for Cambridge
00:33:11.780 and current
00:33:12.680 Laurier University
00:33:13.740 professor.
00:33:14.300 My thanks to David
00:33:15.160 for coming on
00:33:15.780 and also all of you
00:33:16.520 for tuning into the show.
00:33:18.060 Hope you have a very
00:33:19.260 happy Dominion Day
00:33:20.640 or Canada Day,
00:33:21.440 whichever you call it.
00:33:22.220 I hope it's Dominion Day,
00:33:23.200 but regardless,
00:33:24.100 I hope you enjoy it.
00:33:25.240 We will talk to you
00:33:26.260 next week.
00:33:26.800 Thank you,
00:33:27.260 God bless,
00:33:27.820 and good day,
00:33:28.320 Canada.
00:33:29.020 Thanks for listening
00:33:29.740 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:33:30.920 Support the program
00:33:32.000 by donating to
00:33:32.800 True North
00:33:33.220 at www.tnc.news.
00:33:36.620 Thank you.
00:33:37.620 Thank you.
00:33:37.760 Thank you.
00:33:37.800 Thank you.
00:33:37.820 Thank you.
00:33:37.880 Thank you.