00:01:22.240So and frankly, it's hard not to feel like we're losing ground when we see the climate of censorship that's taking hold of our universities and the general public.
00:01:29.420So in light of this, we asked ourselves if there was an economic angle that could be interesting that we could explore that would allow us to truly display the clear link between freedom of speech and economic growth.
00:01:39.300So surely enough, by doing the math, we were able to estimate that Canada's GDP per person, like you said, could increase by over $2,500 if we defended freedom of speech as well as the number one country does on our ranking.
00:01:53.340And right now, the number one country is Norway.
00:01:56.040So what is it that Norway does differently than Canada?
00:01:59.520Or did you not go down into that depth?
00:02:01.520Because I know it's difficult when you are looking at so many different countries.
00:02:04.380No, we did actually ask ourselves what Norway does differently than us.
00:02:08.740And well, the Norwegians basically made it a priority to strengthen their freedom of expression in tangible ways.
00:02:14.340So it's standard practice for politicians in Norway to make constant efforts to better protect their freedom of expression.
00:02:21.300And just a few years ago, the country armed itself with an action plan to better promote media independence and increase government transparency.
00:02:28.300And by comparison, Canada is doing less and less to fight censorship, as we see the government can arbitrarily subsidize one media outlet rather than the other, which can undermine media independence and make the information less reliable or biased.
00:02:43.700So and that's not to mention that it's increasingly difficult to get information from our governments right now.
00:02:48.740And these examples are only part of the differences that exist between Canada and Norway right now.
00:02:54.520And you've actually used as a proxy here, media freedom for broader freedom of expression, correct?
00:03:03.560Because when we talk about freedom of speech, it's actually very closely linked to the freedom of the press.
00:03:09.200So there are also other criteria that we have to consider, such as government transparency, media independence, violence towards the press as well.
00:03:15.720So when we say we want to improve freedom of expression, we actually want to encourage an environment or an infrastructure that facilitates the production and dissemination of news and information.
00:03:26.800How do we know that this isn't just an issue of the countries that are very much open to press freedom are also doing other things?
00:03:34.720They're predisposed to other things that are causing that economic growth.
00:03:38.600How can we draw the line between the two?
00:03:40.340It's hard to know. You're right. But when we did look at the overall picture of our sample, which included over 130 countries, when we looked at those who ranked the lowest, meaning those who have a very weak performance in terms of freedom of speech.
00:03:54.920They're often authoritarian countries, of course, but they're also those who have the lowest GDP per capita.
00:04:01.680And so the population in those countries not only suffer from poor economic conditions, but they also have very high unemployment, very high infant mortality rates and a low GDP.
00:04:12.120So that's where we basically drew the line.
00:04:15.660Yeah, and this is actually coming at a really important point.
00:04:18.420We talked about this on the show last week that the Canadian government is looking at even more restrictions.
00:04:23.700So not going the direction that you're saying we should go, but the opposite way on online freedom of expression, which we know is potentially a recipe for disaster.
00:04:33.200In fact, I don't see how it can be anything but that.
00:04:35.440So it does seem like we're backsliding here.
00:04:38.020Exactly. And what appears to be, let's say, unusual is that now it's the younger generation that seems to want to censor the older generation or let's say it's the students that are kind of standing up and saying what they don't like or what they don't like, what they're hearing.
00:04:51.240And when it goes that way, it's kind of worrisome because there are grave consequences when it comes to the climate of censorship.
00:04:56.980Like I said, that's taking hold of our universities.
00:04:59.680And the example of the GDP per capita is only one example of what we're losing by not protecting it more.
00:05:05.920Yeah, and it's important to note that while you have quantified the benefit in this, if we were to go down a road of having more press freedom, there would also be a better human freedom, which is not as easily quantifiable.
00:05:18.860But there are other benefits to living in a freer country.
00:05:22.580Of course. Like I said earlier, Norway making it a priority.
00:05:26.620The fact that the politicians are making a constant effort to better protect their freedom of expression means that the citizens can also speak out and say what they like and what they don't like.
00:05:36.260So the policies that they come out with are, by default, better adapted to what their population wants.
00:05:42.500So that's another way to see how our standard of life is also at stake here with the censorship.
00:05:47.740Now, what are some of the tangibles that you've included that you think would actually get us on that road to having more press freedom and thus having that more $2,500 more in our pockets?
00:06:00.380Well, we put forward three concrete recommendations that could improve our freedom of speech and therefore improve our standard of living.
00:06:07.600And the first being to create a regulatory and fiscal framework that's favorable to all media rather than just dishing out subsidies rather randomly to one or the other.
00:06:17.940The second being to encourage universities to promote freedom of expression in order to allow their faculty and their students to speak freely without fear of repercussion.
00:06:27.360And the last one is to increase transparency by reducing the need to make requests for access to information.
00:06:34.320Yeah. And the last one isn't the sexiest of topics, but it is a significant issue.
00:06:39.980I mean, any journalist I know, certainly any independent journalist, and I include myself in this category, has had access to information requests that have, in some cases, taken years.
00:06:49.900And some departments are notoriously bad about this, like the RCMP.
00:06:54.200But it's very difficult to hold a government to account when the government is saying, no, we're very open.
00:06:59.400We have access to information. But in practice, that isn't actually working.
00:07:03.600Exactly. And it has happened to us in the past.
00:07:05.660I mean, in June, we did make a request for access to information, and we haven't had a response.
00:07:10.620All we had are emails saying, OK, the response will be delayed.
00:07:13.680But we've never actually gotten our answer.
00:07:17.540And I can't imagine the number of journalists that have done the same and that have gone without answer as well for all these months at a time.
00:07:23.920There is a delay that the government is supposed to respect.
00:07:27.060If I'm not mistaken, it's three months.
00:07:29.720But still, in any case, they have surpassed this delay by many, many months.
00:07:33.700Yeah. And the university aspect is an important one as well.
00:07:37.440We saw in Ontario the new government—well, it's not new anymore, but at the time in 2018, the new conservative government put in a policy that said any university that didn't have a statement that was affirming freedom of expression could be regulated and could have their funding affected.
00:07:56.320I mean, universities put it forward, but we still have stories of university censorship.
00:08:01.080So there hasn't actually been a firm policy that does what you're recommending, which is actually seriously promote and protect what are supposed to be inalienable rights on publicly funded campuses.
00:08:12.240Exactly. And the controversy at the University of Ottawa is just one example.
00:08:18.280It's a very sad example, but still, as you said, there's no very clear and concrete policy that has been put into place that is easy to respect and enforce.
00:08:27.040So we're kind of still waiting on that to see if the government has any other moves up its sleeve.
00:08:32.020We hope so, because if there isn't freedom of expression in universities, I'm afraid of where we're going, because that's where the ideas are supposed to flow.
00:08:39.020That's where innovation is supposed to happen.
00:08:41.680Very much so. I'm just curious, Maria, when you set out on this study with your colleague, did you expect that you'd find such a decisive number?
00:08:50.380Did you expect that there would be such a visible difference between less free countries and more free countries on this economic criterion?
00:08:58.080Well, we didn't really know what to expect. We were very glad to see that the number was interesting.
00:09:04.540We wanted this piece to interest many people.
00:09:09.000The $2,500 per person was something we were quite excited about in the fact that we can actually present this and say, you know,
00:09:15.420there's concrete ways to increase our standard of living if we at least make it easier to say our ideas in public or in school.
00:09:24.340So our expectations were low in the sense that we didn't have any, but we were hoping to find something very interesting.
00:09:31.620And the $2,500 per year is actually for every ranking we go up.
00:09:37.640So let's say right now we're in 18th position.
00:09:40.000If we were to become the 17th country on that list, we would gain $150 per person per year.
00:09:45.640So it's every time we go up a place, we gain something.
00:09:48.220So even the smallest detail, even the smallest little policy could make a difference for every Canadian.
00:09:54.560Do we find that freedoms tend to go hand in hand, that countries that are better on press freedom are better on economic freedom, are better on other forms of liberty?
00:10:03.640Yeah, well, just as the lowest ranking countries had a very poor economic condition and high unemployment rate and infant mortality rates,
00:10:13.360it was kind of the opposite for those who had a very high ranking in terms of freedom of expression.