Juno News - More taxpayer-funded 'news'？

00:00:00.000 Welcome to The Fighter with Chris Sims. I am Chris Sims. I'm the Alberta Director for the

00:00:09.920 Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Thank you for making us a part of your day. If you haven't

00:00:15.540 done so yet, please be sure to like this video and share it with your friends who need to know.

00:00:20.940 I hope that you're having a wonderful holiday with your loved ones, be them family or friends

00:00:26.840 or a combination of both. And I find this time of year, it's important to reflect on where we've

00:00:32.620 been and where we're going. When it comes to things like advocating for taxpayers, it's really

00:00:39.040 important to know where your information is coming from and who you can trust. And that, of course,

00:00:45.340 always leads me back to my original trade that I went to school for, and that's journalism. In fact,

00:00:51.260 I still have my old textbooks sitting on my shelf right here in my office. And the reason why the

00:00:58.200 trade of journalism is so important to maintain and keep a very close eye on is because it's one of

00:01:05.480 those situations of who's watching the watchers? How can you trust where your information is coming

00:01:12.500 from? Why is a free press important? How are journalists taught in school nowadays? Why does

00:01:20.160 all of this matter? Because of course, in order for all of us to be able to hold government to

00:01:26.340 account, to speak truth to power, we have to be able to trust our journalists. Before we speak

00:01:34.200 with a great man who's had all of his career in journalism, let's first hear a word from our

00:01:39.900 sponsor. I want to give a quick word from our sponsor, Albertans Against No Fault Insurance. So did

00:01:45.980 you know that the Alberta government is overhauling its auto insurance system? Under a new model called

00:01:50.420 Care First coming to effect in 2027, most Albertans injured in car accidents will no longer be able to

00:01:55.300 sue the at-fault driver. Instead, decisions about your care and compensation will be made by the

00:01:59.780 insurance company, not your doctor, not the courts. Critics say this system puts insurance companies

00:02:04.540 first and removes key rights from victims and their families. Okay, as promised, we've got a really

00:02:11.060 thoughtful conversation with a gentleman who has spent decades not just in the news media business,

00:02:17.700 but actually at the head of a regulatory body that decides what you can see and hear and share.

00:02:28.820 How important is this for Canada? Let's find out. I am so happy to be joined now by our friend,

00:02:35.140 Peter Menzies. He is, of course, a longtime journalist, former editor of the Calgary Herald,

00:02:40.740 and former vice chair of the CRTC. And he is on the up and up. If you ever want to know what's

00:02:46.180 happening in the world of journalism, and you should, because that's how you get information and

00:02:49.940 hold government to account, please subscribe to his sub stack, follow him on X. Merry Christmas,

00:02:55.140 Happy New Year. Yeah, the same to you. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. I really appreciate your writing

00:03:01.700 and your work. And I appreciate your candor when it comes to the current state of journalism in Canada.

00:03:08.500 And I'm going to try to be nice here. I'm currently obviously working in more of the independent media

00:03:13.860 side of things, but I worked in mainstream media for most of my life. I know there are hardworking

00:03:18.580 journalists that are still within mainstream media. My problem with it, and I don't know where exactly you

00:03:24.580 stand on this, you might agree with me. My problem with it is now it's accepting government funding.

00:03:29.620 And to me, that is just a direct conflict of interest that you cannot cover and hold the

00:03:36.100 government to account if you're counting on that government for your paycheck. It just isn't real

00:03:42.100 journalism in my take. And I don't care if it's right wing or left wing independent media. I believe

00:03:49.700 you have to be independent from government for a free press, free from government. What's your take on this?

00:03:56.020 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's I mean, like 10 years ago, even five, six, seven years ago,

00:04:02.980 if you had asked most news organization publishers, if they thought it was appropriate to be dependent

00:04:09.700 on government funding, they would have said no. And certainly, if you go back far enough to, you know,

00:04:14.980 20 or more years ago, 20 years ago, I guess, when I was last in the business, it would have been an

00:04:20.660 absolute hill to die on. It was just, I mean, you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even raise the

00:04:26.340 conversation, right? And partly because, you know, and now that they are, I mean, I hear people say all

00:04:33.380 the time, well, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't affect me. But it, and it might

00:04:37.860 not, you know, for many people, but it affects the way you're perceived. And that's, that's the biggest

00:04:43.940 problem. I mean, newspapers are always going to, or news organizations, you always, you know,

00:04:50.580 everybody's got to serve somebody as Bob Dylan wrote, you know, so, so it's, you know, it could

00:04:55.780 be advertisers, and people could look at that, or you're just doing that, because, you know,

00:04:59.860 you're not being tough on Sobeys, because Sobeys is a big advertiser, and that sort of stuff.

00:05:04.020 But at least it's transparent. Yes, you can see the Sobeys ad, and there are other ads, right? Because

00:05:11.140 you've also got Sobeys competitor, you've got Walmart ads there, right? So, you know, you're

00:05:18.100 balancing, you know, there's some balance in it. And the other thing is that, you know, even though

00:05:23.540 you have those, and those are, those are real, those can be real pressures, you know, in newsrooms,

00:05:29.060 and your owner, and that sort of stuff, there's all kinds of them. None of them can arrest you.

00:05:36.980 You know what I mean? Like the government is a very powerful creature. It is the creature that

00:05:44.820 people expect you as a journalist to hold to account. And when you're taking money from the

00:05:52.340 people you're expected to hold account, to hold accountable to the public, it just has a really

00:05:59.700 bad luck. I mean, the first obligation of journalists, this is pretty almost universally accepted as the

00:06:05.460 truth. The first loyalty is to citizens. And if citizens don't view your first loyalty as being to

00:06:13.140 them, you're dead. I mean, you can keep wandering around, as Jen Gerson calls them, zombie, you know,

00:06:23.700 zombies, you know, like it's publications, and there's plenty of them in Canada where they hardly

00:06:30.580 post anything original. And they just exist because of government money. But you're, you're actually

00:06:38.340 doing actively, in my view, you're actively doing harm to journalism. Because a, you're not free and

00:06:46.820 independent from the state. And be exactly to your point, Peter, that the way you put that just floored

00:06:52.980 me. Companies can't come arrest you. The state can. It can. It has all this power. And as a journalist,

00:07:03.860 I always felt a great privilege of being able to actually speak truth to power. Like that, that term is

00:07:13.700 overused. But I always kind of pictured being a journalist of you find yourself in the most strange

00:07:21.940 situations, talking to people who you would never otherwise be granted an audience with. It's like

00:07:27.780 working in a glass elevator of a really tall high rise apartment building. You can be down in the basement

00:07:33.300 talking to the janitor in the morning about price of natural gas and pipe fitting. And in the evening,

00:07:39.620 you could be up in the penthouse, putting a mic in the face of a world leader. It was always such

00:07:45.780 a privilege. But knowing that you were speaking on behalf of your readers, speaking on behalf of your

00:07:51.140 listeners and your viewers, and never having that inkling in the back of your head of 30% of your

00:07:57.780 paycheck or $30,000 of your paycheck, something like that could be hinging on this dude in government's

00:08:06.260 feelings. And you don't want to ruffle the feathers. And to your point, it's the perception of bias

00:08:14.660 that is the problem. It's the same thing with corruption and integrity. The moment that there's

00:08:20.020 that little drop of doubt, you've lost the plot. I read articles about truth and about trust in

00:08:31.860 journalism. And there's that barometer of trust where they do, I forget what the name of the

00:08:36.980 organization is, but they do a trust survey every year. And for the last three years straight, Peter,

00:08:43.460 more than half of Canadians believe journalists are actively trying to mislead them with statements

00:08:49.860 they know to be false. Yeah, it's brutal. It is. And, you know, I suppose to be fair to

00:08:58.180 journalists in a sense that the internet has created a world where we now know what doesn't

00:09:01.940 get in the newspaper or on the news. Yeah. And so that, you know, that's, that's a challenge to them.

00:09:07.780 And that's, that's where you need to be working even harder to build trust. The problem with the

00:09:13.460 taking the government money thing is that they don't seem to care anymore. I mean, the people running,

00:09:18.100 I mean, I mean, lots of journalists do, they won't admit it, because they don't want to slag their

00:09:23.380 employers. So I kind of get that. Yep. But their employers have kind of given up on that, on that,

00:09:29.860 that trust thing near as I can tell, like, they just, they're trying to pretend, you know, don't,

00:09:35.620 just don't look, don't look, you know, like, well, and so you see no news about it, you see no news

00:09:41.780 about increases in funding, that sort of stuff that comes from people who don't take the money

00:09:48.020 will report on that. And that makes it even worse, right? Like some of the, some of the companies,

00:09:53.620 for instance, have published, and won't publish because I've been rejected on them,

00:10:00.820 op eds critical of the taking the money, so you just don't want any attention drawn to it,

00:10:06.420 which to me just proves the point that taking the money skews your judgment, right? So

00:10:14.260 that is going to decrease trust. And it's not just trust in journalism. This is how we all know,

00:10:20.340 we've all had troubles, whether they're family or in, you know, intimate relationships or whatever,

00:10:27.460 where trust is an issue, where trust gets broken. When it gets broken, when trust gets broken,

00:10:35.380 what are your chances of rebuilding it? Really, really slim. Like you, it's possible,

00:10:43.060 but it's not easy. Trust is as a social capital commodity, is one of the most difficult things

00:10:51.300 to maintain. And it's one of the most really difficult things to rebuild once it's, once it's

00:10:58.580 diminished. And that's the problem for media, right? Because everybody's going to make mistakes,

00:11:03.780 right? Everybody's going to screw up, and everybody's going to have to come clean and say,

00:11:08.180 we blew this story. Our reporter did this or that, or we were misled, and we're sorry, right? So that

00:11:16.180 happens, right? But then, and then you go to work rebuilding trust again. It's the most vital commodity

00:11:22.260 that you, and that's taking government money, just constantly puts that in peril.

00:11:29.220 Yeah, it's like they're on an IV trip, IV drip of distrust now. And they're not admitting it. If

00:11:35.540 you're, if you're trying to rebuild trust with someone, say in a personal relationship, the first

00:11:40.580 thing you have to do is admit you did wrong. Admit it, own it. Like, say it out loud and say,

00:11:47.860 I'm not doing that again. I'm going to work really hard to rebuild your trust, and I am sorry. But they're

00:11:53.700 not even in that ballpark yet. They're still just taking the money and ignoring what I would argue

00:12:01.300 is well-founded criticism from people who've worked in journalism for a long time and want them to do

00:12:07.060 right. Now, we hear great things from, for example, Black Locks reporter, they do a great job of keeping

00:12:13.620 up on this. Their estimate, because it's a whole bunch of different things, there's direct funding,

00:12:18.180 there's tax credits, there's all sorts of ways that the government is now funding the mainstream

00:12:22.740 media. Their last estimate was that per media company employee, it's around 27 to $30,000 now.

00:12:34.340 That's an astonishing amount of money. Well, and that's, that's where the other big

00:12:38.900 problem comes in. Because when, how do you compete against somebody who has a 30% subsidy on wages,

00:12:45.780 right? Like if, if, if you, if you have a 30%, if, if the, if you're trying to recruit staff,

00:12:53.540 right, how do you compete on, on salary, for instance, with the guys who are taking, who are

00:13:00.100 taking the subsidies and that sort of stuff. But yeah, no, it's up there. And, and it's probably,

00:13:06.980 and actually in various provinces, like in Ontario, there's a, there's a subsidy in the form of

00:13:13.460 diverted advertising, government advertising, that's worth about $25 million a year,

00:13:19.700 that goes to Ontario based media. And you, you can't actually even find out who got what.

00:13:27.140 I've tried, I've tried, I've tried, I've sent emails to the, the communications department of

00:13:32.660 the government of Ontario, because it's not in their public accounts. And that's sort of thing that

00:13:38.020 isn't, they just have the total, but I'd like to see the breakdown, like how much does the Toronto Star

00:13:42.100 get, how much does the national post get? Yeah. And you can't get it. And guess what?

00:13:46.900 Nobody's chasing it. Right. So I don't have the resources to do any more than what I've done.

00:13:54.260 Maybe one of these days, one of the, you know, and it's maybe not that big a thing, but one of

00:13:59.380 the independent media will, will take a run at finding, finding it out. Who gets, who's getting

00:14:04.340 those advertising, because apparently it makes quite a bit of difference, but there you have it,

00:14:09.380 Ontario media and in Quebec, there's other subsidies too. So in some places, over 50% of,

00:14:16.260 of a journalist pay is actually coming from one government or another. Over 50%.

00:14:25.060 Yep. Of a, of a journalist salary. I can't. And probably that's probably covers probably 90%

00:14:31.700 of journalists in the country. Well, maybe not 50% for, for 90%, but there's a, there's a,

00:14:38.180 there's a certain percentage that more than half their salary is being covered in either through a

00:14:43.060 tax credit or another form of subsidy by the federal or their provincial government.

00:14:48.100 You know, I finished journalism training in the 1990s and all through my newsroom careers,

00:14:54.260 all of my news editors and stuff. And those salty, wonderful people that I worked with,

00:14:58.340 I can't believe this. Like the, like to your point of having a hill to die on,

00:15:02.980 like it would have been unthinkable around 10 or 15 years ago to do something like this.

00:15:08.340 Where's the answer here? And I wanted to quickly segue into where we're talking about right now,

00:15:13.940 the issue of journalists being paid by the government, government funded journalism, which

00:15:20.100 is basically a form of propaganda, even if they think they're earnestly still covering the five W's.

00:15:26.020 There's that one element. What about the intake part? Do you have any concerns at all about how

00:15:31.940 we're training journalists nowadays? Is there too much focus on having a four year or a master's

00:15:38.660 degree in journalism instead of actually having that weird spark that you like talking to strangers

00:15:44.260 and you really like talking to regular people, the more kind of lunch bucket journalism. Do you have

00:15:48.580 any concerns there, Peter? Yeah. I don't think, I mean, right now the CBC and there's probably others

00:15:55.460 where they, you can't work there unless you have a university degree in journalism.

00:16:02.260 I, you don't need to go to university to be a journalist. It's a good thing if you do.

00:16:08.420 I would prefer that people went to university and learned how to, got a degree in economics and then

00:16:16.820 decided to be a journalist because you, if you can't learn the, you know, at least you may not

00:16:23.300 be able to execute, but if you can't understand the fundamentals of journalism in about six months,

00:16:29.300 you should go sell shoes. It's, it's not, it's, it's not that complicated, right? It's,

00:16:35.780 look at the course listed most journalism programs, right? And it's bizarre, like you're making things

00:16:41.940 up to sort of fill out the program. It really, it really is. And yet you have journalists coming out

00:16:47.940 who have a very thin understanding of, of, of math. I mean, if you were good at math,

00:16:51.940 you wouldn't be a journalist, let's face it. So, so, so that's, so that's what, that's what happens.

00:16:58.020 No, it, it, you know, I think it very much, it won't happen, but in my ideal world,

00:17:03.060 it's a craft. It's a noble craft. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a trade. It's not a profession. I mean,

00:17:11.460 I, I was helping out a young journalism student the other day, and she's like taking her masters,

00:17:19.860 bright young woman and wish her all the best, but I'm like, why does this woman have to take a masters, 1.00

00:17:24.900 right? Like she should be in a newsroom being, you know, growled at by and taking long stares from

00:17:31.220 crusty old editors, right? With, and, and, and learning and, and learning on, learning on the

00:17:36.260 job because that's how you do it. You don't learn how to become a journalist there. You learn how to

00:17:41.140 become a journalist by going to Lacklebish and working for the local radio station or, or, or

00:17:48.260 newspaper there and, and, and understanding how, what, what, what community journalism means to the

00:17:53.940 broader picture, what really the government needs to do. This is a difficult time for journalism.

00:18:00.100 The internet has taken away its advertising base and, and it's distracted its readership base.

00:18:08.020 Yes. It needs a thoughtful approach about what we can build and what we can salvage for the future,

00:18:15.220 right? So journalism is the most important thing. The horse that it rides, it has been riding for the

00:18:22.340 last hundred or 200 years is not the important thing, right? It's the package that matters. How do we

00:18:28.740 deliver that package? And if the horses, the, the, whether it's the national post or the Toronto star

00:18:35.140 or the Charlottetown guardian, isn't capable of carrying that vehicle anymore, they might be,

00:18:42.500 but how do they need to change to do it? Or what new vehicles do we need to do it? We need to have a

00:18:48.420 serious national news industry policy that looks at that. I'm all open to sort of like government,

00:18:54.660 having a public policy framework within that works. For instance, making subscriptions,

00:19:00.660 a hundred percent tax deductible for the first thousand dollars you spend on subscriptions or

00:19:06.180 smart pick, pick a number, right? So what you, because what you should be, if you're subsidizing

00:19:12.900 something through public policy and we can call that subsidy or not what you're subset, you're not

00:19:18.340 subsidizing, you're subsidizing the consumer. You're subsidizing your readers, your viewers, your

00:19:25.220 listeners, right? You're subsidizing that behavior because the government thinks it's in the public

00:19:30.580 interest for people to be well-informed. Where you choose to inform yourself is entirely your choice,

00:19:37.700 right? So whether it's the Globe and Mail or Juno News or, or the Toronto Star or

00:19:49.140 the TIE, whatever your preference is, right? There you go. And you get, and the government subsidized

00:19:56.900 that. So that's what I thought for instance, I mean, if you can get a 70% tax credit for, you know,

00:20:05.060 a political donation, why can't you get the same for a subscription to, uh, to a news source?

00:20:11.540 That's really smart. Yeah. And then, and there are other things, there are other things that are

00:20:16.340 possible too, that I've done a couple of papers on for McDonald Laurie Institute. But, um, um, not

00:20:24.740 surprisingly, as with many things in my life, um, important people did not pay attention.

00:20:30.180 Well, I think people were paying attention during the last election. Um, and we did hear the issue

00:20:36.820 of media funding come up a lot. Um, it's something that I've been campaigning on just not just to

00:20:42.100 defund the CBC, um, which costs us a 1.4 billion per year, but exactly to your point to stop government

00:20:48.260 funding of media. And if you flip it around and you give the tax credit instead to the individual,

00:20:54.500 regardless of who they choose to listen or watch, then that takes that pressure off the media

00:20:59.780 organization in the sense of not bending a knee to government, even subconsciously, their subconscious

00:21:06.980 bending of the knee would revert back to the subscriber. It would go back to that subscriber

00:21:12.820 and start hopefully rebuilding that trust. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so governments

00:21:16.980 can do that and it's, and, and they do it in all kinds of things. They, they, they see a behavior

00:21:21.780 that is in the public interest that they want to encourage charitable donations are one, right?

00:21:27.060 Yep. Um, that doesn't mean just because you get it just business tax credits. I mean, I might even

00:21:33.460 have some sympathy for, for, for certain tax credits, um, in, in, in terms of that sort of stuff,

00:21:39.140 but we could at least have a, have a debate about that sort of stuff. The idea of this,

00:21:43.460 this sort of direct funding is, is, uh, is absurd though. It is. Um, and it could, because what you

00:21:49.540 need to, and what you need to encourage them to is, is, is the industry to be working to, to battle

00:21:59.220 for readers. Yes. Right. So subscribe to me, subscribe to me, me, me, pick me. Right. Um,

00:22:05.780 that's, that's the sort of competition you need, which will drive them to innovate. Now, you know,

00:22:11.220 I'm aware that anything like that can be few to simplistic. And I know that the problems are very

00:22:17.300 complicated, but news org, new news organization, lots of old news organizations are dying. Right.

00:22:24.500 Um, but lots of new ones are starting up and you know, the, there, there's, there's different types

00:22:31.700 of models too. There's like, uh, um, you set yourself up as a, as, as a not for profit. Yep. Right.

00:22:38.500 There's, there's different, different models there that some people are having some success with some

00:22:43.860 success with. You can work, work through sponsorships, which are fine. As long as

00:22:47.860 you're transparent about it, you'll get criticized for some, but you can, you can be transparent

00:22:52.820 about it and say, Hey, you know, everybody's got to eat. Everybody gets that. Yep. So what we need

00:22:57.540 is a thoughtful approach. And all we've had is a reactionary approach. The industry went for the,

00:23:02.740 the, you know, with the, first of all, with the tax credit and said, no, no, no, it's only for five years.

00:23:08.100 We don't even want to be dependent on government for longer than that. It's a bad idea. Right.

00:23:13.460 Just give us five years while we work on our digital transition. Well, they did diddly.

00:23:19.460 Yeah. Right. And after five years, it's like, oh, we've got to need another year. And now a temporary

00:23:24.580 five-year program, or as Milton Friedman used to say, there's nothing more permanent than a temporary

00:23:29.940 government program. Right. It's just embedded. Yeah. And nobody originally wanted it to be that

00:23:38.260 way, but everybody's afraid to get out of it now, but it's, you know, so we'll just lurch along.

00:23:45.060 Right. There's no direction to it. You're just subsidizing business models that don't work anymore.

00:23:53.220 And when you do that, you're not leaving room for business models that might work.

00:23:58.660 And that's what we need. That's where we need to go. Exactly. And then perhaps we'll start getting

00:24:03.140 more of the people that keep asking me, why am I not hearing about city hall? Why am I not hearing

00:24:08.660 about what's going on in the courts, like regular courts? And I say, because they're just not there.

00:24:13.700 There's three people in a newsroom that used to have 20, like they just don't have the content

00:24:18.900 anymore. Maybe if they change this model, we'll be able to have that more beat level reporting again.

00:24:25.060 Yep. Yeah. I mean, but that's what you need to encourage. You can't keep sustaining.

00:24:31.860 You know, I mean, some of these old titles, I mean, I think, I think the titles will somehow

00:24:36.100 manage to survive, even if, if most media were to fail. I do think that somebody would, and I know

00:24:42.740 that people have been trying to buy the Montreal Gazette from them, but they won't, but they won't

00:24:47.380 sell it. I mean, Anthony Housefather and others in, in Montreal have been, have been trying to work that,

00:24:53.060 because they want to rescue it. And Ben Franklin was involved in the founding of the Montreal Gazette.

00:24:57.860 I didn't know that.

00:24:58.740 Some famous old titles, right? They will survive probably that in title only, but the newspaper

00:25:07.300 may not. But, you know, we need to move forward and subsidizing, subsidizing the 20th century and 19th

00:25:16.740 century business models. When we're here in the 21st century at a time when the internet is,

00:25:24.660 in terms of communications, the advent of the internet, in my view, is every bit as profound

00:25:30.100 as the creation of the printing press. Amen.

00:25:32.100 And nobody seems to get that. Amen. Well, that's why we're having

00:25:35.540 this wonderful conversation now. Peter, we've taken up enough of your time over the Christmas

00:25:39.940 break. Where can people find your work and your insights?

00:25:45.380 The easiest place is the rewrite on Substack. That's my, that's my Substack. It's,

00:25:50.900 I'm very pleased with its progress. We are building subscribers and some people even pay,

00:25:56.420 even though there's no paywall. Yes, we do. Which is, which is great. And

00:26:03.220 blessings to every one of them. And I also write regularly in the hub

00:26:07.380 as well. And occasionally once a month, maybe in the line, that's where you can find most of my work.

00:26:14.580 And he's very sassy on X. You have to go check him out. Thank you so much for your time today. Merry

00:26:20.260 Christmas and happy new year. All the same to you and to your listeners.

00:26:24.980 Thank you so much. Once again, that is Peter Menzies. He is of course, a long time journalist.

00:26:31.700 And don't you just love hearing that with that kind of experience and him saying, you know,

00:26:36.500 if you're going to have a free press, you got to be free from government.

00:26:40.260 What do you think about his idea of saying, Hey, actually, if you want to get into the tax credit,

00:26:46.500 you know, thing, which can become a quagmire, but what if you flipped it around and say, Hey,

00:26:52.260 you who has a subscription to whatever you want to watch and listen to and get your information from,

00:26:59.460 then you get that tax credit instead of the media company, getting the tax credit, the subsidy,

00:27:06.660 the direct government funding. To his point, political parties, if you make a donation to

00:27:13.060 a political party, your inbox is probably filling up right now as they're coming up to the end of the

00:27:16.820 calendar year. If you make a donation to the political party, you get a huge amount of money

00:27:21.540 back. Why not do the same thing if it comes to information that you are trying to subscribe to?

00:27:28.580 Because of course, information is power. And if you have the right information,

00:27:33.460 you are able to hold the government to account. Folks, thank you so much for making us a part of your

00:27:40.020 day. I hope your holiday season has been full of health and happiness and blessings. Thank you so

00:27:47.380 much for watching. Be sure to share this show with people who need to know.

Juno News - December 31, 2025

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