Juno News - Parents are fleeing the public school system

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.600 Welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show on True North, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:15.700 It is Friday, September 1st, the beginning of a new month, heading into a long weekend,

00:00:21.360 and that means back to school is upon us, which has probably invoked a little bit of anxiety in you,

00:00:28.360 which I apologize for, but as you are racing out to Staples or wherever to get whatever you forgot to buy your kids for next week,

00:00:35.180 just throw this podcast on in the car, and hopefully we will calm your nerves a little bit,

00:00:40.220 because I want to shine a light in this particular episode on school choice.

00:00:44.900 Now, I should say by way of context, this is an issue that I've cared about and have been interested in for many years now,

00:00:51.800 although I think it's one that a lot of parents haven't really considered as being as relevant as it is now,

00:00:58.700 because it is something that we're seeing a lot of parents really start to wish to bring up,

00:01:04.040 which is this choice on where they can send their kids to school.

00:01:07.020 In the last few weeks, we've been talking a fair bit about the parental rights battles that have been taking place

00:01:12.160 in an increasing number of provinces.

00:01:14.180 It started in New Brunswick, but now we see these discussions even in Ontario and in Saskatchewan and elsewhere as well,

00:01:21.240 when parents are deciding to take a little bit more ownership over what their kids are being taught in the classroom

00:01:26.920 and what the schools that their children are going to are really pushing on them,

00:01:31.700 or at the very least, what they are supposed to be doing.

00:01:35.060 And this is where we get into a bigger discussion about the education system.

00:01:39.460 And I wanted to really open it wide here because I know that for most people,

00:01:43.740 and this was, I think, the case for me growing up in Ontario,

00:01:46.780 the options that my parents considered were Catholic school or public school.

00:01:50.500 That was it.

00:01:51.120 Homeschool was never on the radar.

00:01:53.200 Private school was never on the radar as well.

00:01:55.900 Some provinces have other systems available, like in the Alberta example,

00:02:00.620 which has charter schools that have really given a huge number of options within the public system to parents.

00:02:07.320 But I want to talk about all of this.

00:02:08.880 What are the choices parents are making?

00:02:11.100 And more importantly, why are we seeing some of these changes?

00:02:14.560 So we have a fantastic panel of guests here to delve into this.

00:02:18.440 Peter Stock is the president of the Homeschool Legal Defense Association.

00:02:22.860 Paige McPherson is the director of education policy at the Fraser Institute.

00:02:27.200 And Catherine Cavanaugh is an Alberta liaison officer with Cardis.

00:02:31.400 It's wonderful to talk to all three of you.

00:02:33.120 Thank you so much for being here today.

00:02:35.020 Let me start with you on this page to get kind of the quantitative analysis on this,

00:02:39.740 because I know that you've done a huge amount of research into this for many years,

00:02:44.560 as I guess one would expect from a director of education policy.

00:02:47.980 But what are the numbers showing?

00:02:49.360 I mean, what's actually the landscape here for what parents are doing with their kids?

00:02:55.080 Yeah, sure.

00:02:55.480 So at the Fraser Institute, we do a lot of research tracking this kind of stuff, looking

00:03:00.120 at, for example, just to begin where our students are educated.

00:03:03.300 So what our enrollment patterns are showing.

00:03:05.660 And it's very clear that government public schools, as in your experience, Andrew, my experience

00:03:11.240 growing up in Ontario as well, they're the predominant form of education really in every

00:03:15.620 province.

00:03:15.980 So we have a recent study looking at enrollment.

00:03:19.280 And what is interesting is that although government public schools are where most kids

00:03:24.660 in Canada are educated in every province, what's also true in every province is that

00:03:29.760 we've seen growth in the number of students enrolled in independent schools or private schools.

00:03:35.120 So between 2000 and 2019-20, every province saw an increase in the share of enrollment for

00:03:42.620 independent schools.

00:03:43.700 And the provinces that have the most kids or the largest share of kids who are attending

00:03:48.460 independent schools are BC.

00:03:51.400 So that's 13.2% of kids.

00:03:54.180 So that's the largest in Canada, followed by Quebec, which is 11.7% of kids.

00:04:00.120 And I know we'll get into this more when we talk about the policies, but both of those

00:04:03.740 provinces do offer school choice policies, which empower parents to use some of their tax

00:04:09.300 dollars to go to the school of their choice for their child.

00:04:12.820 Another interesting enrollment pattern that we've seen is that every province in this

00:04:18.060 timeframe also saw an increase in the share of homeschoolers.

00:04:21.740 So it is a small percentage of the overall student population in Canada.

00:04:27.620 It's a small but growing area of our education system.

00:04:31.400 So Alberta had the highest rate of homeschoolers at 1.9% of all students.

00:04:37.760 But there are some reasons why, outside of even the kind of more philosophical or ideological

00:04:43.600 reasons that you alluded to earlier, that parents might have some concerns about government

00:04:48.640 public schools.

00:04:49.440 We know that government public school spending is going up.

00:04:52.600 It's gone up in eight of 10 provinces.

00:04:55.900 Total spending exceeded the amount necessary to keep up with inflation and enrollment changes.

00:05:00.860 We're talking billions and billions of dollars spent on government public schools.

00:05:07.980 And at the same time, student achievement is dropping.

00:05:10.640 Reading, science, math.

00:05:12.580 Student test scores in Canada are on the decline.

00:05:15.120 So while the spending is going up in government public schools, our students are not performing as

00:05:19.280 well.

00:05:19.720 So I think there are a whole number of reasons why parents might seek alternative education,

00:05:25.080 but there are certainly some red flags that we see in the numbers.

00:05:28.640 I know Paige alluded to the homeschool dimension there, but I wanted to go to you, Peter, on this,

00:05:33.740 as that's really your area of expertise with the Homeschool Legal Defense Association.

00:05:38.640 Are you seeing numbers that track with the groups you work with and the people you work with,

00:05:44.260 with what Paige just said?

00:05:45.840 Absolutely.

00:05:46.280 The last three years has been wonderful for our movement in Canada.

00:05:50.120 We've seen literally a doubling of the number of homeschoolers nationally.

00:05:54.300 And in some provinces, it almost tripled in the first year of COVID.

00:05:59.480 We did see those numbers fall back a little bit as time went by, but a massive, massive increase.

00:06:06.060 And I should mention, even prior to COVID, the 15 years prior to COVID, we were seeing 5% growth

00:06:13.720 year over year for 15 years.

00:06:16.460 So it is actually probably the fastest growing form of education in the country.

00:06:21.340 Although, as Paige says, it's still a very small minority amongst the school population.

00:06:26.300 Let's talk about the Alberta context specifically here, Catherine, because Alberta has always

00:06:32.600 been, to me anyway, one of the more alternative systems to Ontario that I've looked at that

00:06:37.680 said, you know, at the very least, if we're going to make a small-ish change that would

00:06:42.340 have larger implications without totally blowing everything up, Alberta is a pretty great example

00:06:47.140 of that.

00:06:47.600 You've got a system there that has a lot of flexibility within still the public system.

00:06:53.140 And I was wondering, first, if you could just bring up, for people that aren't as familiar

00:06:56.280 with it, how does Alberta tackle this? 1.00

00:06:58.220 And then beyond that, are we seeing more of, you know, examples of parents using these

00:07:04.580 independent schools, the charter schools there?

00:07:07.880 Totally.

00:07:08.800 So yeah, Alberta has one of the most supportive school choice environments in Canada.

00:07:13.120 We not only have our public school system, our separate school system, and our Francophone

00:07:18.100 school system.

00:07:18.760 We also have many different options for alternative school programs within the public systems.

00:07:23.600 And then beyond that, we have our independent schools, which receive 70% of operating funding.

00:07:28.960 And then we have charter schools, which offer individual-specific pedagogies, different ways

00:07:34.320 of learning in each different charter school.

00:07:37.780 And then we have multiple different types of homeschooling streams that parents can choose

00:07:42.100 as well.

00:07:42.460 So the charter school world alone has really exploded in the last few years.

00:07:48.060 I think we have three new charter schools opening this fall and multiple other schools opening

00:07:52.760 a different campus in a different geographic area.

00:07:56.580 And we've seen so many different types of learning be introduced through these models.

00:08:02.160 So we've had, you know, rural charter schools open in the last year, a classical charter school.

00:08:07.760 A charter school is opening in Edmonton this fall, geared specifically towards children

00:08:12.640 from low-income families.

00:08:14.840 There are, you know, Suzuki music charter schools.

00:08:17.540 Basically, there's a whole, like, no matter how your child might learn, there is an option

00:08:22.680 out there that is probably a really good fit for them.

00:08:25.280 We've also seen our homeschooling numbers in Alberta as well.

00:08:30.160 They almost doubled over the last three years.

00:08:32.520 And then, again, they've come down a little bit since things have stabilized post-COVID.

00:08:36.520 But they're still, they've gone from over 13,000 kids being homeschooled in 2019 to over

00:08:43.980 20,000 students still being homeschooled now.

00:08:46.760 And then the independent school world is also seeing an explosion of interest.

00:08:50.280 Parents are really realizing that every child is different, that kids have diverse needs,

00:08:55.720 and we need diverse options to serve those needs.

00:08:58.640 And so we did an informal survey of independent schools in urban areas in Alberta recently.

00:09:05.700 And almost every single school was either, they either had a long wait list or, and or

00:09:11.800 they were planning to expand their physical space or introduce new programming over the

00:09:16.900 next couple of years.

00:09:17.500 So, um, it's, it's definitely a movement and parents are really realizing their kids

00:09:22.940 need options and they're, they're looking into practical ways to make that happen.

00:09:27.340 Let's talk for a moment, if we can, about the profile of a parent that homeschools specifically,

00:09:33.940 because, you know, when I was younger, as I said, it was just entirely out of anything

00:09:39.620 that my family would have considered.

00:09:40.920 We didn't know anyone who did.

00:09:42.460 I didn't really have any exposure, even in university.

00:09:45.320 I don't know if I met anyone I did when I really started to see homeschoolers in any

00:09:49.760 real numbers was when I ran for office.

00:09:51.560 And I was introduced to some people that were part of these homeschool co-ops and man, they

00:09:56.040 are the hardest working people you will ever find homeschool moms and their kids.

00:10:00.940 But, but, you know, it was exclusively religious in my view going into it.

00:10:05.680 And now I've seen that change and that I've known a lot of people that are not particularly

00:10:10.920 religious or, you know, they don't fit sort of the denominational profile you'd expect.

00:10:15.440 And I'm wondering if we have any data or even anecdotally on that, Peter, about whether

00:10:21.240 homeschooling is broadening beyond just that kind of harder line evangelical Christian demo.

00:10:27.760 Oh, yeah, I think for sure you can find people from any, any background, the whole spectrum

00:10:34.460 in society that are home educating now.

00:10:36.900 And, you know, and that, and that's as, as it should be really, people are making that

00:10:42.000 choice, families are making that choice for a variety of reasons.

00:10:44.780 Um, but at the end of the day, I think what we're seeing is a general concern about where

00:10:50.760 things are going in the publicly funded system.

00:10:52.860 I mean, that, that's, that's probably going to be one of the answers, not the only answer,

00:10:57.260 but one of the answers that, uh, just about every parent will give you.

00:11:02.120 Would, would that align with what you've heard, Paige, about whether, I mean, or let me actually

00:11:06.400 ask the question in a different way.

00:11:07.720 Do you find values or quality is the bigger driver out of the public system?

00:11:13.280 Um, well, I, I can tell you that in terms of the polling that we've done, um, of parents

00:11:20.300 of kids in K to 12 schools and families, I'll just give one example.

00:11:23.260 Um, an area that we look at is province wide assessment, standardized testing.

00:11:27.980 This is something that is declining, um, really not across the board, but in many parts of Canada,

00:11:34.740 many provinces.

00:11:35.400 And yet, um, like, like in terms of the number of standardized tests, the amount that standardized

00:11:40.680 tests matters, the ways that parents can understand basically how their kids are doing in schools,

00:11:46.300 um, even, um, how clear report cards are for parents to read, to really understand how their

00:11:52.480 kids are doing.

00:11:53.180 When we have polled parents, um, fairly recently on whether they should be given a clear idea

00:12:00.300 of how their kids are doing in, in school, um, on these province wide assessments or standardized

00:12:05.320 tests, parents overwhelmingly, an overwhelming majority of parents in every province do support,

00:12:11.820 um, this kind of testing.

00:12:13.560 And yet we see it declining, um, in most provinces.

00:12:17.120 And so that's just one of the areas in which, you know, I don't think that public government,

00:12:22.120 public schools, or maybe what the province's education departments are, um, expecting of

00:12:27.900 teachers and of schools and of that accountability mechanism to parents.

00:12:31.600 They're just not in line with what parents are expecting to get from, um, these, uh, these

00:12:36.980 bureaucracies to which they're giving their tax dollars without choice in the matter.

00:12:41.020 Um, so that's one area, but then there's also, of course, curriculum, um, and there's,

00:12:45.160 there's a whole number of other, um, of things that I think that, you know, parents do have

00:12:49.280 these concerns.

00:12:49.940 There's also things like discovery math, you know, these, these educational concepts that

00:12:54.440 are being introduced into curricula where you see these kinds of parent advocacy groups,

00:12:58.520 uh, start up in protest because they simply are not able to help their kids with their

00:13:02.880 math homework.

00:13:03.380 They're seeing that their kids aren't doing as well.

00:13:05.420 And as I mentioned earlier, we see on the international kind of gold standard testing,

00:13:10.620 um, PISA international assessments, as well as the Pearls international assessments, that

00:13:15.980 Canadian student results are, are really declining in math and science and reading.

00:13:21.080 And it's, it's, you know, it's our kids who are going to suffer down the line.

00:13:24.180 And really, I think, you know, society as a whole, who are going to suffer if these core

00:13:28.140 competencies really aren't achieved.

00:13:29.700 So I think that, you know, what we've seen from, um, at least in terms of the research

00:13:34.060 that we have done and the polling that we have done from parents, we haven't done a lot

00:13:37.860 on sort of the philosophical pedagogical side, but we do know that there is certainly a concern

00:13:43.320 with quality, um, and there's a decline in that quality, but there's also, I think, just

00:13:47.980 a disconnect between what parents expect and what they want to see and what they're actually

00:13:52.560 getting from their government public school system.

00:13:55.460 I'll put this to you, Catherine.

00:13:57.080 Has there been any real research on outcomes at the end of it?

00:14:01.560 I mean, for the most part are in Alberta, are charter school educated kids faring better

00:14:07.160 after graduating than high school or public high school educated kids, for example, or anything

00:14:12.600 else along that line?

00:14:15.060 Yeah, I would say there's a lot of research coming out on this.

00:14:17.280 Um, and so we've done a survey at Cardis, uh, called the Cardis Education Survey.

00:14:22.460 We've done it since 2009, I believe.

00:14:24.360 And we're looking directly at that question.

00:14:26.720 What are the outcomes for, for graduates who attended different types of school?

00:14:31.100 Um, and so we, we ask questions to children or to, to graduates, I guess, not children anymore,

00:14:35.560 um, who attended public schools, you know, private Christian schools, um, uh, who were in different

00:14:41.040 types of homeschooling environments, both religious and not religious.

00:14:43.700 Um, whether they attended like an elite independent school, um, and the data is really, really clear

00:14:49.340 that those who attended any one of the alternative options, whether it's an independent school

00:14:54.340 or religious school or homeschooling environment, um, have superb outcomes, both academically

00:15:00.000 and in terms of, you know, civic participation, um, connection with their community, satisfaction

00:15:05.100 with their life, satisfaction in their families.

00:15:07.780 Um, and in some cases, you know, they're more financially successful, um, in some cases

00:15:12.700 they're, they're more, you know, connected to their community.

00:15:15.440 Um, and so it just really shows that these different, um, options and alternatives, um,

00:15:20.780 and different environments for learning, they, when you find one that is a best fit for each

00:15:26.720 individual child, it really allows them to thrive in every aspect of their life, including

00:15:31.080 academically.

00:15:31.620 I know that there has always been this fear that in Ontario anyway, it goes back to the

00:15:38.760 2007 election when, you know, we talked about faith-based school funding, which I thought

00:15:43.660 was an entirely valid policy at the time, but ended up being the political career ender

00:15:48.580 for John Tory, at least until he found a bigger political career ender a few years later.

00:15:52.840 But the thing about that is that it was a perfectly reasonable policy to a lot of people who are

00:15:58.680 religious but not Catholic, because, you know, as a Protestant, I would say, oh yeah, absolutely.

00:16:03.460 I would love to have access to the same thing that Catholic students and Catholic parents

00:16:07.480 do.

00:16:07.940 And, and I wonder though, if there is a bit of a concern, because I've talked to some people

00:16:12.660 that have said, especially on the faith front, that, uh, they enjoy being outside of the public

00:16:17.980 system entirely because they feel it gives them a bit more autonomy.

00:16:21.160 And I wanted to ask you about that, Paige, as far as, you know, the policy implications of

00:16:26.080 coming into the public system or coming into public funding, does that force schools to

00:16:31.580 really abandon the things that are why they exist in the first place?

00:16:36.500 Yeah.

00:16:37.060 So that's a really good question.

00:16:38.580 Um, and, uh, I think that we see, we, we have done research in this area.

00:16:43.360 The answer, the short answer to your question is that it really depends on how the government

00:16:46.980 crafts the policy.

00:16:47.940 The, the goal in my view should be that you don't want to, um, squelch the innovation and

00:16:55.300 customization and the tailor made fit for every kid, um, kinds of benefits that come along

00:17:01.220 with, um, empowering families to choose alternative modes of education, whether that be giving them

00:17:07.160 a portion of their tax dollars to go towards homeschooling or go towards independent schooling,

00:17:12.180 whatever that might be.

00:17:13.180 You want to allow those different educational models to be different, right?

00:17:17.260 To, um, to innovate and, and provide, um, that unique benefit that they can to, to be

00:17:22.940 the best fit for every child.

00:17:24.820 The problem is that when, um, governments do start funding these models, we have seen that

00:17:31.240 in provinces that offer funding to independent schools, there does tend to be a higher level

00:17:36.660 of regulation on those independent schools.

00:17:38.820 And, and the way that the policy is structured is such that, um, and this is not to say that

00:17:43.960 this is a bad policy, but there in some provinces are tiers of funding where if you follow certain

00:17:49.380 levels of regulation, you'll actually get more funding.

00:17:51.720 So that might be, um, if you're hiring certified teachers following the provincial curriculum, um,

00:17:58.040 you might get different tiers of funding for your independent school.

00:18:02.020 Um, and you, we also see this with homeschooling.

00:18:04.600 There's three provinces that offer some level of funding for homeschooling, Saskatchewan, Alberta,

00:18:08.480 and BC, and they do have higher levels of regulation on homeschooling.

00:18:11.960 And many families who homeschool do have strong feelings about that.

00:18:15.660 That's why they've, they've chosen to homeschool.

00:18:18.060 They don't want to follow, um, all these different regulations that come along, uh, from the provincial

00:18:22.860 government that they find in their local government public school, which would have been maybe

00:18:26.780 their other financial options.

00:18:27.940 So I think the sweet spot for governments is, um, and, and I will say that in Ontario,

00:18:33.500 where you and I both had the experience of attending public schools, K to 12, um, Ontario,

00:18:39.140 because it does not currently offer school choice to empower families, to use their tax dollars,

00:18:44.440 really to choose school for their kids outside of the really government public umbrella options

00:18:50.000 that you mentioned, Ontario has an opportunity now to craft a kind of a best in the country system

00:18:58.160 of school choice, if it wants to, where it doesn't have to attach these heavy regulatory strings

00:19:04.080 to tie to that funding.

00:19:06.180 Um, it can offer funding to these different models without weighing them down with bureaucracy.

00:19:12.200 So there is the opportunity for governments to craft policies in this way, but yes,

00:19:17.100 how it currently stands in Canada is that the models that do there, the provinces that do

00:19:22.120 offer funding do tend to have more regulation around those different models.

00:19:26.320 Yeah.

00:19:26.860 Let me get you to weigh in on that.

00:19:28.700 If I can, Peter, I mean, do you have any markedly different experiences in the provinces where

00:19:34.600 there is some funding for parents who homeschool versus the ones who don't?

00:19:39.600 No, Paige is absolutely right.

00:19:40.940 Uh, where, where there's funding, there are always strings attached.

00:19:43.640 And, uh, you know, that, that's, that's the story that goes well beyond the educational

00:19:46.760 system, of course.

00:19:48.200 Um, so, so that is the case in BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan, uh, provinces that don't

00:19:53.140 provide funding with one exception, uh, are, are less regulated, let's say, uh, less heavily

00:19:59.440 regulated.

00:19:59.900 And the one exception is Quebec where the approach is, is, uh, has nothing to do with money.

00:20:04.560 It's, it's ideological.

00:20:05.740 The state really wants to control.

00:20:08.120 And I'm going to use that word very specifically.

00:20:09.860 They want to control what kids are learning.

00:20:12.140 So they, they are imposing, uh, the state run educational system on homeschoolers and,

00:20:17.560 and independent schools, private schools in that province.

00:20:22.460 So, I mean, ultimately the best system would be, and this is like my inner libertarian shining

00:20:27.860 here and that, you know, every parent or every child gets a certain number of dollars allocated.

00:20:32.400 And if the parent wants to put that towards the government run school, they can, if they

00:20:37.240 want to put it towards homeschooling, they can, if they want to put it towards a fully

00:20:41.100 fledged, completely private school, and maybe it only covers a portion of the tuition, let

00:20:45.500 them do that.

00:20:46.180 I don't think anyone in Canadian politics is bringing that idea up, but are there policy

00:20:51.980 models that you've seen, Catherine, that you like, if we were to just create it from

00:20:55.780 scratch that you would really emulate?

00:20:58.980 Well, we see in most countries around the world, actually, that they're, they all have

00:21:04.580 slightly different, um, exact structures, but most countries around the world do fund

00:21:08.900 the, like, several different types of schooling options, specifically independent schools, um,

00:21:14.320 to a much higher degree than any province in Canada does, even Alberta.

00:21:18.260 And Alberta has the highest funding, um, in Canada.

00:21:21.240 So there's certainly a lot of room to move down that road to different funding models so

00:21:25.380 that we could empower parents to make the best choices for their children.

00:21:28.460 Um, the true crux of educational pluralism would be a system that respects parental, um,

00:21:35.960 uh, knowledge of their children, one that has a, a reasonable and proper degree of accountability

00:21:41.420 and, and one that is equitable.

00:21:43.660 Um, and so we'd love to see steps taken towards, um, a policy that would, that would include all

00:21:51.420 those three elements.

00:21:52.220 And we see countries like these are, um, you know, these are like G7 countries that

00:21:58.340 do this, the United Kingdom, um, other countries such as like Denmark, South Korea, all very

00:22:02.760 high academically performing, um, have policies like this.

00:22:06.340 And so there, Canada is the outlier in, in not doing so.

00:22:10.200 I know, Paige, the opposition you get to the school voucher model that I just laid out is

00:22:15.300 that it basically siphons money away from the public system.

00:22:18.700 That's the argument that you get.

00:22:20.180 It's the, uh, not a particularly compelling argument though, because as you've pointed

00:22:23.920 out at the beginning of this show, uh, the public system itself does not have a correlation

00:22:29.320 between educational outcome and dollars spent.

00:22:33.060 Right.

00:22:33.680 Yeah.

00:22:34.020 So, so the reality is that pouring more money into government public schools is not improving

00:22:39.140 government public schools.

00:22:40.320 I mean, that's the long and short of it.

00:22:41.740 The data really clearly shows that, um, at least in terms of student success, which of course

00:22:46.580 is probably what we want out of our government public schools or any school to which we send

00:22:51.120 our child.

00:22:51.620 I think the, the real issue is that, um, a lot of families simply cannot afford educational

00:22:59.900 choice.

00:23:01.020 Um, and, and that is to say that if they would like to homeschool or they'd like to send their

00:23:06.300 child to an independent school, it's just simply not an affordable option for them.

00:23:10.600 The cost of living is going up.

00:23:12.060 Uh, we know this, we know that, um, that, you know, things are tight for families right

00:23:16.800 now.

00:23:17.080 And that even in the provinces where independent schools do receive funding, um, that it is,

00:23:24.340 uh, still difficult for many families to, to, to be able to send their kid to one of

00:23:28.560 those schools.

00:23:28.960 And in, in the case of homeschooling for a parent to go to part-time work or, um, for

00:23:33.840 one parent to stop working altogether.

00:23:35.760 Um, you know, this is just not a financially viable option, especially in many of our larger

00:23:40.940 urban centers in Canada.

00:23:42.140 Um, so I think that what governments need to, um, to do is to, to seek policies that

00:23:49.640 make this, um, a more affordable option and make it so that parents are really in the driver's

00:23:56.080 seat and they can really make that choice.

00:23:57.540 You know, which is the best educational fit for my child.

00:24:00.120 I'm going to send my child to that school.

00:24:01.960 If it so happens that our government public schools are providing a world-class education,

00:24:07.120 then parents will choose that option.

00:24:09.840 And we see in the data that I mentioned right off the top that the vast majority of children

00:24:15.100 are educated in government public schools in Canada today.

00:24:18.060 So the concern that we're going to be siphoning money away from, uh, from government public schools,

00:24:23.560 I mean, it's, it's the, the reason that we, we spend education tax dollars is to educate

00:24:30.020 students.

00:24:30.580 It's not about supporting one school system.

00:24:34.000 It's about supporting our students.

00:24:35.700 And so that's where the money should be going.

00:24:37.840 It should be going to students and whatever fits them best.

00:24:41.300 And, um, I think that the irony in the argument that you presented is that if, you know, there

00:24:47.660 was that level of competition where government public schools then have to be a little bit

00:24:52.360 more innovative to compete, to try and draw students to attend their schools, then it could

00:24:57.900 actually allow for some really unique and beneficial things for students and families to come out

00:25:03.060 of those schools.

00:25:03.600 If they did have that drive to compete and, uh, and to be, to be truly excellent.

00:25:08.560 Um, but yes, I mean, the, the short answer is if government public schools are doing a bang

00:25:14.000 up job and they're, um, they're offering the absolute best education, then there's absolutely

00:25:18.080 no reason that families would take their children out of those school systems.

00:25:21.800 And if it so happens that they're not offering, um, that for every child, then it should be 0.60

00:25:27.800 on government public schools to figure out why and to try to do better.

00:25:32.100 I think that's a very valid point, Paige.

00:25:34.800 And I would actually be interested in doing just anecdotally a few conversations with parents

00:25:40.820 and say, if money were no object, where would you send your kids to school?

00:25:44.660 And some may say, you know, the public system, because they think the public system is there

00:25:48.780 for everyone.

00:25:49.260 But I suspect there are a lot who would really take another option if it were there.

00:25:53.940 And I should say as a bit of a caveat to that, I learned not that long ago that the dynamics

00:25:59.500 and the demographics in private schools are a lot more middle-class than I would have thought.

00:26:06.140 And there you have, I think, a really useful bit of information and that you see how much

00:26:10.880 parents really want that parents where that is a very difficult financial decision to

00:26:15.480 make, uh, to get their kids into a private school where they have to pay tuition.

00:26:19.400 And they're, they're still doing that.

00:26:20.920 And I see you nodding, Catherine.

00:26:22.140 So I'll, I'll get you to, to weigh in on that.

00:26:24.220 If you have any thoughts.

00:26:25.520 We did a study on this in Alberta a few years ago, and we found those exact same results.

00:26:30.560 Um, parents overwhelmingly that send their children to an independent school, you know, make,

00:26:36.220 I think it's an average of around $90,000 a year, which especially when you have multiple

00:26:40.440 children attending one school is not that much money.

00:26:44.400 Um, especially given as Paige said, like inflationary pressures we're dealing with right now.

00:26:49.280 Um, they were also less likely to make, um, they were more likely to make less than the

00:26:55.380 average, uh, median wage in Alberta.

00:26:58.020 And they, the overwhelming majority of them were making significant sacrifices in other places

00:27:03.300 to be able to send their children to these independent schools.

00:27:06.240 So yes, elite schools do exist.

00:27:08.520 Ones that cost tens of thousands, thousands of dollars a year, but those are definitely

00:27:12.320 the minority and those people, the people that go to those schools will always have a 0.80

00:27:17.560 way to, uh, to get the education for their children that they want. 0.56

00:27:21.980 Those who are wealthy will always be able to, you know, supplement the education that they

00:27:26.600 might not be getting with extracurriculars or tutoring or tuition for an independent school.

00:27:30.840 It's really those who, um, are poor or who have other challenges in their lives, um, who

00:27:37.000 are disadvantaged by our current school system because they don't have those options.

00:27:40.340 If they're not getting a great education, they probably can't afford to go to an independent

00:27:44.960 school.

00:27:45.280 They might not be able to logistically coordinate to go to a different public school, a better

00:27:49.880 performing public school, or a charter school.

00:27:52.320 As Paige said, they probably don't have a parent who can afford to take the time or effort

00:27:56.480 to homeschool them, um, and so the system as it exists now is ultimately very unfair,

00:28:02.100 um, and it's those who are disadvantaged who are getting left behind even further.

00:28:06.260 I'll give you the last word, Peter, and I'll ask you sort of an inverted version of the

00:28:10.820 question that we were just talking about, which is that do you see homeschooling as being

00:28:15.380 a desirable form of education in and of itself, or do you view it as being the option that's

00:28:22.000 left over because everything else is not adequate or is not within reach for people?

00:28:28.320 No, I definitely see it as, as, as a preferable option for, and, and as we've been talking

00:28:32.860 about, for families that, that can't afford it, because, uh, first of all, on that point,

00:28:37.400 um, there, there really is an adjustment in lifestyle that's, that's required if you're

00:28:41.540 going to home educate, uh, you're, you know, parents got a bit of a glimpse of that in the

00:28:45.840 last few years, I think.

00:28:46.900 Yeah.

00:28:47.280 Yeah.

00:28:47.680 I mean, you know, you, you are generally looking at a parent giving up an income.

00:28:51.160 Um, and so living on a single income is usually where most homeschool families are at.

00:28:55.740 So that, that provides its own challenges.

00:28:57.720 And, uh, and as we said, we're in an inflationary environment, so it can be tough.

00:29:01.820 So, so we have to, we have to change our expectations about what's possible as a family with our finances

00:29:07.540 when we home educate.

00:29:08.860 But if we've made that decision, um, our kids benefit tremendously because they're getting

00:29:13.640 something that you can't get almost anywhere else.

00:29:15.860 And that, and that's one-on-one instruction from instructors who understand the children

00:29:20.620 are, and are with them year after year after year.

00:29:23.240 So, you know, when you go to, uh, the typical public private school, uh, you've got a teacher

00:29:27.560 for a year, maybe two in some cases, but you get passed on along down the line.

00:29:32.120 Um, parents know their kids weaknesses.

00:29:34.160 They know their strengths and they can, they can focus in on those, um, homes, home education

00:29:38.840 works particularly well for kids who have special needs of some sort, uh, whether it's

00:29:42.860 a learning disability, learning challenge, uh, parents, parents can, again, provide a safe

00:29:48.020 environment, give one-on-one instruction and, uh, and really take, uh, the, the specific needs

00:29:54.260 of a child into consideration when they're teaching.

00:29:56.720 So home education delivers all that in a way that virtually no other form of education can.

00:30:03.160 I've heard some naysayers about homeschooling point out that, well, you know, parents aren't

00:30:07.100 experts in all these things that they're teaching, but it's like teachers aren't experts in all

00:30:10.680 the things that they're teaching.

00:30:11.760 I mean, you know, the teachers that have to teach science may have had a science background

00:30:15.640 in university, or they may not have, I mean, they may have taken, uh, whatever, and then

00:30:19.720 they've just had this, especially at the elementary level, they've just had all of these things

00:30:23.460 land in their lap that they need to brush up on.

00:30:25.360 So they're reading from the same curriculum that parents are going to.

00:30:28.820 And I think in that sense, uh, your, your points are incredibly valid there.

00:30:32.380 Uh, well, listen, it is a fascinating discussion.

00:30:34.960 One we'll have to revisit because I realized we we've only scratched the surface here.

00:30:38.980 Uh, Peter Stock is the president of the homeschool legal defense association, Paige McPherson,

00:30:43.880 director of education policy with the Fraser Institute and Catherine Cavanaugh, Alberta liaison

00:30:49.800 officer with Cardis.

00:30:51.400 Thank you so much to all three of you.

00:30:52.860 It was a pleasure.

00:30:54.020 Thank you.

00:30:54.500 Thanks, Andrew.

00:30:56.180 All right.

00:30:56.760 That does it for us.

00:30:57.760 We will talk to you next week with more of the Andrew Lawton show here on true north.

00:31:01.580 Thank you.

00:31:02.220 God bless and have a great weekend.

00:31:03.740 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton show.

00:31:05.980 Support the program by donating to true north at www.tnc.news.

00:31:11.500 Thank you.

00:31:12.180 Thank you, Mr. Clark for talking to you next week.

00:31:20.720 We'd love to take you next week.

00:31:22.660 We'll see you next week.

00:31:26.980 Bye-bye.

00:31:27.080 Bye-bye.

00:31:27.680 Bye-bye.

00:31:28.740 Ms. Anderson.

00:31:29.200 Bye-bye.

00:31:29.680 Bye-bye.

00:31:30.120 Bye-bye.

00:31:30.300 Bye-bye.

00:31:30.680 Bye-bye.

00:31:32.320 Bye-bye.

00:31:33.360 Bye-bye.

00:31:35.540 Bye-bye.

00:31:35.780 Bye-bye.

00:31:37.520 Bye-bye.

00:31:37.580 Bye-bye.

00:31:39.040 Bye-bye.

Juno News - September 01, 2023

Parents are fleeing the public school system

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript