Juno News - Parents need more choice in Canada’s education system, report says

00:00:01.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:07.440 Among the most famous words in Canadian politics by now,

00:00:11.200 diversity is our strength.

00:00:13.800 Well, is that true in the education system across the country,

00:00:17.460 in the various provinces?

00:00:19.020 A new report from ARPA Canada,

00:00:21.180 the Association for Reform Political Action,

00:00:23.860 says it is and actually lays out some really important recommendations

00:00:26.800 on how we can get more diversity in education,

00:00:30.520 which ultimately is more choice for parents

00:00:32.660 and, by extension, a better array of options for students.

00:00:37.240 The report just came out.

00:00:39.040 It's called Educational Diversity,

00:00:40.820 right to the point about what it's about there.

00:00:43.040 Joining me from ARPA Canada is lawyer Andre Schutten.

00:00:46.660 Andre, good to talk to you.

00:00:47.600 Thanks for coming on today.

00:00:49.280 Well, it's so good to be on the show.

00:00:50.520 Thanks very much for having me.

00:00:51.940 Now, like I sort of alluded to earlier,

00:00:53.880 we hear lots of talk about diversity.

00:00:55.740 What is it in this context?

00:00:58.700 Yeah, diversity is very important.

00:01:01.080 I think in this country, we recognize it.

00:01:03.740 All kinds of different people come to the table

00:01:06.300 with different experiences and different ideas,

00:01:09.100 and that's usually going to be a strength for us.

00:01:12.380 The problem when it comes to education

00:01:14.220 is that when it comes to diversity,

00:01:16.480 we're not thinking broad enough.

00:01:19.120 We're not thinking about a diversity of cultures

00:01:22.600 or a diversity of institutions or of groups,

00:01:27.080 and that's where I think we need to see more diversity.

00:01:29.820 Right now, while there might be a diversity of people

00:01:35.220 within one big education system, a single system,

00:01:41.140 there's not a diversity in approaches to education

00:01:44.280 in different institutions providing education for our kids,

00:01:48.240 and not a diversity in recognizing that there's different philosophical

00:01:52.420 and pedagogical philosophies around education.

00:01:56.300 So we're just advocating for a lot more of that,

00:01:58.880 and the outcome will be best for all kids.

00:02:02.280 We have as available options right now homeschooling,

00:02:06.760 private schools.

00:02:08.200 Even so, the vast majority of students enrolled,

00:02:11.480 and the report mentions this, are in the public system.

00:02:14.080 And under the banner of the public system, Catholic schools,

00:02:17.580 charter schools, if you're in Alberta,

00:02:19.320 or the general public public school board,

00:02:22.180 and I think it's somewhere in the range of around 92%

00:02:25.020 or just shy of that, that are choosing to be

00:02:27.020 in a publicly funded school.

00:02:28.820 So they have the options.

00:02:30.580 What's not diverse about the system

00:02:32.180 if parents can choose to go into them

00:02:34.220 and are just in large numbers choosing

00:02:36.400 to go into the public stream?

00:02:38.920 Yeah, I think that number is actually pretty staggering

00:02:42.120 when we see that 92% of Canadian kids

00:02:45.920 are being educated by the state,

00:02:48.480 by the civil government.

00:02:50.560 We would start as our foundation,

00:02:52.860 our first step is to say,

00:02:54.080 well, who's actually first responsible?

00:02:56.240 Who's primarily responsible

00:02:57.540 for the education of our children?

00:02:59.340 And I say that responsibility lies on parents.

00:03:02.580 But when certain options are just off the table

00:03:07.500 because of, let's say, finances

00:03:09.280 or because they're not being promoted enough

00:03:12.120 or made available enough,

00:03:14.020 you know, that becomes a problem.

00:03:16.040 I think a lot of parents aren't even aware

00:03:18.320 that independent education,

00:03:20.580 education provided not by the state,

00:03:22.320 but by other actors,

00:03:23.680 that it's a good option,

00:03:25.780 that it's an option that should be embraced.

00:03:27.660 And certainly in some provinces,

00:03:28.960 like in Ontario,

00:03:29.860 there's certainly no financial support

00:03:35.420 for that kind of education.

00:03:37.720 And so that's going to speak volumes.

00:03:41.160 Some of the messaging around public education

00:03:45.080 is basically that a good citizen

00:03:47.600 ought to send their child to a state-run school. 0.77

00:03:50.600 And I think that kind of messaging

00:03:52.400 needs to change as well.

00:03:54.300 When I was raised,

00:03:55.980 and I was raised in Ontario

00:03:57.200 and I've lived here all of my life,

00:03:59.320 the private school was just for the really rich kids

00:04:03.180 and the really wealthy kids.

00:04:04.580 And that was the image in my mind

00:04:06.260 that the private school had.

00:04:08.340 And I've learned later on in life

00:04:10.980 that that isn't in fact the case,

00:04:12.420 that there are a lot of private religious schools,

00:04:14.440 I'd say are the most notable examples,

00:04:16.140 where people who have very just average

00:04:18.600 middle-class family incomes

00:04:20.260 find a way to scrape and scrounge

00:04:22.560 and put their kids in these private schools.

00:04:24.940 And you're right,

00:04:25.660 they have to do it really well

00:04:27.460 paying for two educations.

00:04:28.860 Their taxes are still going towards

00:04:30.320 the public school system

00:04:31.820 and then they're paying a tuition

00:04:32.980 in the private school system.

00:04:34.660 One of the recommendations in this report,

00:04:36.960 which I think is very important,

00:04:38.300 is allow education funding

00:04:39.780 according to a per capita formula

00:04:42.080 for all public school,

00:04:43.740 independent school and homeschooled students.

00:04:45.700 So am I understanding that correctly?

00:04:47.120 That if you're a parent

00:04:48.240 and you want to go to a private school,

00:04:50.280 you could take that tax money

00:04:51.700 that you're paying towards the public school

00:04:53.620 and reallocate it.

00:04:55.320 Yeah, exactly.

00:04:56.080 That would be one way of doing it.

00:04:57.660 Now, there's different ways of doing it,

00:04:59.380 but that's the basic thrust of it.

00:05:02.960 What are we interested in supporting

00:05:04.820 as provincial governments in this country?

00:05:07.180 Is it to support a system?

00:05:09.220 Is it to support one big system?

00:05:11.400 Or is it to support students?

00:05:12.800 And if it's to support students

00:05:14.440 and to empower parents

00:05:16.620 to make good decisions

00:05:17.660 for their own children,

00:05:18.760 then let the money follow the child.

00:05:21.500 Don't let the money just go to a system

00:05:23.260 and fund the system.

00:05:25.280 And so that kind of a model will,

00:05:27.900 it's going to have a couple of good effects.

00:05:29.740 One is going to increase,

00:05:31.580 I think, efficiencies

00:05:32.920 because those schools,

00:05:34.320 various schools,

00:05:35.000 will want to be able to

00:05:36.460 have your child come to their school

00:05:38.980 so that they can educate them

00:05:41.960 and develop their curriculum and so on.

00:05:44.880 So there's going to be better efficiency.

00:05:46.760 But importantly, from our perspective,

00:05:48.820 it's going to increase responsibility,

00:05:51.160 the ownership of the responsibility

00:05:52.620 and the decisions of parents.

00:05:54.460 Parents are going to be not saying,

00:05:56.240 well, civil government,

00:05:56.940 you take care of making sure

00:05:58.060 my kid gets a good education.

00:05:59.380 Rather, it's each parent is going to say,

00:06:01.200 now I'm invested.

00:06:02.820 I want to investigate

00:06:03.720 how things are going at that school

00:06:05.100 because if it's not going well at this school,

00:06:07.200 I'm going to pull my kid out

00:06:08.160 and put them in that other school

00:06:09.380 where they're learning better,

00:06:10.500 they're reading better,

00:06:11.360 they're doing better on their math scores,

00:06:13.300 they're understanding concepts

00:06:16.480 like biology and chemistry better.

00:06:18.700 There's no more bullying over here

00:06:20.480 compared to there

00:06:21.220 and that they can make

00:06:22.440 those kinds of decisions

00:06:23.280 and freely do so

00:06:24.440 without too much concern.

00:06:27.040 How solid is the evidence

00:06:28.260 on academic performance

00:06:30.000 that you just mentioned

00:06:31.320 in comparison between these

00:06:32.960 two public or private options?

00:06:35.020 And I'm including homeschooling in private.

00:06:36.860 Yeah, so across the board,

00:06:40.320 independent schooling

00:06:41.140 produces a better result for students.

00:06:44.440 Their marks are going to be higher

00:06:45.560 than students coming out

00:06:48.100 of the public system.

00:06:49.360 And we see that in other jurisdictions

00:06:50.940 and we see that in Canada itself.

00:06:53.440 In fact, and this is actually really important,

00:06:57.260 is that independent schooling

00:06:59.200 increases the performance,

00:07:01.380 particularly for marginalized students

00:07:04.900 and economically disadvantaged students.

00:07:07.560 So the people that we should be

00:07:08.840 most concerned about,

00:07:10.160 students from racialized communities,

00:07:12.480 for example,

00:07:13.080 or students that are very poor,

00:07:14.880 come from poor parts of cities

00:07:17.220 and parts of the country,

00:07:18.640 they're going to do better

00:07:19.620 when we have independent schools

00:07:21.120 in the area.

00:07:22.760 In fact, there's even studies

00:07:24.380 that show that where there's

00:07:25.840 an independent school

00:07:26.900 close by a public school,

00:07:28.840 that the public school students

00:07:30.240 will do better.

00:07:31.600 It'll actually increase

00:07:32.780 even their performance.

00:07:33.940 So you see that more

00:07:35.660 in jurisdictions like British Columbia,

00:07:38.120 for example,

00:07:38.480 that does support independent schools

00:07:40.300 a whole lot more than Ontario does.

00:07:43.460 Although these independent schools

00:07:45.140 don't quite get equal funding

00:07:47.840 compared to the public system.

00:07:49.820 I have to go back

00:07:51.040 to that 91.8% number

00:07:53.180 to get the precise figure

00:07:54.540 of people that are in the public stream

00:07:56.520 when they have theoretically

00:07:58.600 the choice to go elsewhere,

00:07:59.960 notwithstanding the cost issues

00:08:01.320 we've raised.

00:08:01.880 But I do have to ask,

00:08:03.560 is that, in your view,

00:08:05.160 just because of a lack of option

00:08:07.360 or feeling like they have

00:08:08.540 a lack of option?

00:08:09.320 Or is that expressing a preference?

00:08:11.360 Because if that many people

00:08:12.440 or even a large subset of that

00:08:14.240 are just choosing that system,

00:08:16.420 is this really just a small minority

00:08:18.760 of parents that you're trying

00:08:20.700 to advocate for a solution for

00:08:22.280 in this report?

00:08:23.960 Yeah, again, a fair question.

00:08:25.900 And I think that there certainly

00:08:28.340 are parents that do just prefer

00:08:31.360 the local school up the street,

00:08:33.320 you know, a big, large school

00:08:35.220 that's in their neighborhood.

00:08:37.580 And it can also be considerations

00:08:40.060 like, you know, the local school,

00:08:41.660 the local publicly funded school,

00:08:43.180 right, will have a lot more options

00:08:45.920 than a lot of independent schools

00:08:47.140 do, like, you know, larger gyms,

00:08:49.080 maybe swimming pools,

00:08:50.200 huge athletic facilities

00:08:52.900 and those sorts of things.

00:08:55.380 But again, that would come back down

00:08:57.260 to that question of funding

00:09:00.500 and having, you know,

00:09:01.940 the extra financial resources

00:09:03.200 to develop those programs.

00:09:04.760 If more resources like that

00:09:06.320 were made available,

00:09:07.140 I think when parents had

00:09:09.880 a fuller range of options there,

00:09:11.960 they would start making

00:09:13.080 better use of it.

00:09:14.960 But it's certainly not only

00:09:16.800 about the money.

00:09:17.880 I think that there is,

00:09:19.040 you know, there's been a culture

00:09:21.020 that has developed over the last,

00:09:22.500 you know, 30, 40 years

00:09:24.420 that that's very dependent

00:09:26.520 on the civil government

00:09:27.820 when it comes to education.

00:09:30.240 And it's going to lead to worrying

00:09:32.700 developments down the road.

00:09:35.400 I mean, this is more

00:09:36.100 at the philosophical level, Andrew,

00:09:38.040 but I think that where

00:09:40.240 we depend on the civil government

00:09:42.960 to not only fund,

00:09:45.800 not only regulate,

00:09:46.820 but even to provide,

00:09:48.040 you know, the moral

00:09:50.700 and pedagogical raising

00:09:52.340 of our children,

00:09:54.100 that that's a that's a problem

00:09:55.720 because it results in

00:09:57.320 in among other things,

00:09:58.380 it results in a lack

00:09:59.260 of responsibility

00:10:00.120 on the part of parents

00:10:01.380 towards their own children,

00:10:02.800 a lack of drive

00:10:04.120 and determination

00:10:04.900 to make make those kinds

00:10:07.360 of decisions for your own kids.

00:10:09.280 And I think that that could be

00:10:11.140 that could be a problem.

00:10:12.440 Then the other thing

00:10:13.020 I would know is that

00:10:14.100 that number is shifting slightly.

00:10:15.940 That 91.8% of people

00:10:18.620 in the public school system

00:10:20.260 is slowly but surely decreasing

00:10:23.080 because I think more and more people

00:10:24.700 are being a little upset

00:10:27.140 with how the quality of education

00:10:29.360 in public schools

00:10:30.480 and what's going on

00:10:31.220 in a lot of these mega schools

00:10:32.560 in particular.

00:10:33.220 And actually, this last year

00:10:34.820 with the whole COVID pandemic

00:10:37.340 and what's happened

00:10:38.940 with a lot of the schools,

00:10:40.680 I think that's actually provided us

00:10:42.220 an opportunity to really evaluate,

00:10:43.920 is this the best way

00:10:45.140 to do education for kids?

00:10:47.120 Is it to cram all kinds of kids

00:10:49.540 through a big 3,000 student school

00:10:54.000 and run them through that way?

00:10:57.780 Or is there better ways

00:10:59.120 to do schooling

00:11:00.180 still maybe with an institutional school,

00:11:02.680 but one that's much smaller

00:11:04.960 and it's culturally

00:11:06.380 or religiously connected

00:11:08.340 with the families that support it?

00:11:10.340 Going way back to 2007,

00:11:14.620 I remember when in Ontario,

00:11:16.020 the topic of faith-based schools

00:11:17.540 and funding faith-based schools

00:11:19.420 publicly became

00:11:20.480 a very toxic political issue.

00:11:22.700 Then PC leader, John Tory,

00:11:24.300 who had a great many other flaws,

00:11:25.500 this wasn't one of them though,

00:11:26.920 had raised this idea

00:11:28.120 and there was a massive backlash.

00:11:29.820 And I realize a lot's changed

00:11:30.940 in the last 14 years,

00:11:32.580 but a lot of people, I think,

00:11:34.620 and I say this as a Christian,

00:11:35.620 a lot of people get very,

00:11:37.460 I think, instinctively uncomfortable

00:11:40.180 with the idea of funding

00:11:42.300 faith-based schools,

00:11:43.260 irrespective of the Catholic school funding,

00:11:45.160 which people seem to find is okay

00:11:46.980 when other denominations aren't.

00:11:49.020 But the curriculum itself,

00:11:50.720 is your view that there would be

00:11:51.780 a core standardized curriculum

00:11:53.620 and then everyone would be able

00:11:55.240 to build on top of that?

00:11:56.320 Or do you think that, honestly,

00:11:57.380 we need to strip it back down

00:11:58.800 and let individual schools

00:12:00.660 or school boards develop a curriculum

00:12:02.960 in accordance with some sort

00:12:04.580 of baseline standard?

00:12:07.140 Yeah, I think those things

00:12:08.580 are definitely things

00:12:09.400 that would need to be explored

00:12:10.600 and so on.

00:12:11.280 But at base, I think the civil government

00:12:14.720 has an interest in well-educated citizens.

00:12:18.360 So, you know, if an independent school,

00:12:20.880 let's use a faith-based school,

00:12:22.580 let's say there's a faith-based school

00:12:23.820 that exists and says,

00:12:25.120 oh, we're educating kids,

00:12:26.220 but by the time these kids hit grade three,

00:12:28.400 they still can't read.

00:12:29.400 By the time they hit grade eight,

00:12:30.760 they can't do basic division

00:12:32.240 or multiplication.

00:12:33.940 Well, there's a major problem there.

00:12:35.320 And I think that school's not doing

00:12:37.960 what it's supposed to be doing.

00:12:39.300 And I think the civil government

00:12:40.340 has an interest in ensuring

00:12:43.760 some basic standards

00:12:45.020 when it comes to reading,

00:12:46.200 writing, arithmetic,

00:12:48.040 you know, history, science, civics,

00:12:50.780 and so on.

00:12:51.880 But I think it has to be relatively limited

00:12:54.660 because, you know,

00:12:55.460 how far do we want to go?

00:12:56.640 We want to have still

00:12:57.720 a diversity of options

00:12:58.860 when it comes to pedagogical styles,

00:13:01.100 like classical education

00:13:02.900 versus what we see today,

00:13:04.500 which is standard in public education

00:13:06.480 or Montessori schools,

00:13:08.560 or there's all kinds

00:13:10.120 of different approaches to education.

00:13:12.180 Let's let that diversity happen

00:13:14.040 because there's a diversity of kids.

00:13:16.480 I look at my own family

00:13:17.800 to make it a bit personal.

00:13:19.620 I have a son who's right now

00:13:20.940 thriving in a classical school,

00:13:23.720 which really focuses on the liberal arts.

00:13:26.480 And I have a daughter

00:13:27.600 who's not yet in school,

00:13:28.620 but I don't think she's actually

00:13:29.740 going to do all that well

00:13:30.600 in that kind of a school.

00:13:31.460 There might be another school

00:13:32.540 where she'll do much better in,

00:13:34.220 where she'll thrive in,

00:13:35.360 where she has gifts and talents

00:13:37.100 that will be better expressed

00:13:38.840 in a different kind of school

00:13:39.860 with a different pedagogical model.

00:13:41.880 So I think we need to be able

00:13:43.220 to accommodate that.

00:13:44.300 But frankly,

00:13:45.800 sending my kids

00:13:46.700 to two different independent schools

00:13:48.240 will break the bank.

00:13:49.540 So we've got to figure out

00:13:50.300 how to do that.

00:13:52.160 The limits that the civil government has

00:13:54.140 when it comes to the diversity

00:13:55.340 of educational options

00:13:56.540 makes it very, very difficult

00:13:58.060 for us to choose

00:13:58.720 what's best for our kids.

00:14:01.260 And that's a problem

00:14:02.980 in a diverse country like Canada.

00:14:05.240 And it sounds as though

00:14:06.000 being in Ontario like me,

00:14:07.320 you have the worst available option

00:14:09.680 available to you

00:14:10.360 when it comes to that.

00:14:11.860 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:12.960 Exactly.

00:14:13.440 And again,

00:14:14.260 when you look at the law,

00:14:17.620 and so I'm a lawyer

00:14:18.440 and I often will look

00:14:19.600 at this kind of thing

00:14:20.240 through the lens of the law.

00:14:21.640 I mean,

00:14:22.180 there's enough things

00:14:23.480 in our charter,

00:14:25.480 for example,

00:14:25.880 that would encourage

00:14:27.100 a diversity of institutions

00:14:28.320 when it comes to education.

00:14:29.460 I mean,

00:14:29.940 take section 23

00:14:32.140 of the charter,

00:14:34.380 which talks about

00:14:34.940 a multicultural society

00:14:36.760 and how all of our rights

00:14:38.380 and freedoms

00:14:38.720 have to flow

00:14:40.440 through that kind of a lens.

00:14:42.140 Well,

00:14:42.460 a great way

00:14:45.080 to enhance

00:14:45.820 our multicultural society

00:14:47.040 is by enhancing

00:14:48.300 a diverse spectrum

00:14:49.220 of educational choices.

00:14:50.380 That's section 27

00:14:52.140 of the charter,

00:14:52.780 sorry,

00:14:52.980 not section 23.

00:14:54.440 And actually,

00:14:55.180 when you look

00:14:55.500 at international law,

00:14:56.680 you see even stronger language

00:14:58.220 for independent education.

00:14:59.840 There's some really neat things

00:15:01.800 that have been passed

00:15:02.500 both at the European Parliament

00:15:03.760 and at the UN,

00:15:05.240 which speak about

00:15:05.960 how we have to respect

00:15:08.280 a child's parents' 0.81

00:15:11.100 religious and cultural identity

00:15:12.560 when it comes to issues

00:15:13.540 like education.

00:15:14.980 And I think that we can learn

00:15:16.300 from the international community

00:15:17.620 on this.

00:15:18.180 The report,

00:15:20.260 Educational Diversity,

00:15:21.740 published by

00:15:22.580 the Association for Reformed

00:15:24.080 Political Action,

00:15:25.120 ARPA Canada.

00:15:26.100 Joining me from ARPA Canada

00:15:27.620 is Andre Schutton,

00:15:28.920 General Legal Counsel

00:15:29.880 and Director of Law

00:15:31.340 and Public Policy.

00:15:32.340 Andre,

00:15:32.620 thanks so much

00:15:33.140 for coming on.

00:15:33.780 Really fascinating topic.

00:15:35.500 All right.

00:15:35.800 Thank you so much

00:15:36.380 for having me.

00:15:37.420 Thanks for listening

00:15:38.040 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:39.580 Support the program

00:15:40.300 by donating to True North

00:15:41.520 at www.tnc.news.

00:15:44.680 the end of the programToRead.com

00:15:48.560 We'll see you soon.

00:15:49.260 Bye.

00:15:50.140 Before we begin

00:15:50.520 to watch

00:15:52.140 our final episode

00:15:53.160 of the Ontario

00:15:54.380 be advisors.

00:15:56.860 We'll see you soon

00:15:58.740 for more.

00:15:59.140 Bye.

00:15:59.320 Bye.

00:15:59.760 Bye.

00:16:00.380 Bye.

00:16:00.760 Bye.

Juno News - February 17, 2021

Parents need more choice in Canada’s education system, report says

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