Juno News - Pastor Artur Pawlowski has been arrested... again

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.720 Coming up, the divisive nature of vaccine passports and the government's COVID enforcement culture.

00:00:18.540 Plus, what does the federal election mean for Western alienation?

00:00:23.280 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:26.880 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:32.740 This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:00:35.460 Tuesday, September 28th, 2021.

00:00:39.000 Great to have you aboard the program here as we drift further and further into a culture of enforcement and coercion

00:00:46.960 as opposed to the education-first mindset that we're all in this together mindset

00:00:52.120 back when it was just two weeks and not two years to flatten the curve.

00:00:56.080 Most notably, we have Pastor Artur Pawlowski from Calgary landing in Calgary on a private plane

00:01:04.540 and the first thing that happens to greet him on Canadian soil is he's arrested, met on the tarmac, taken into custody

00:01:11.880 and, according to his lawyer, charged with an outstanding contempt charge or something like that.

00:01:18.160 I mean, it doesn't matter at this point.

00:01:19.580 I mean, the whole thing that they used to say about Al Capone is that they couldn't get him on the big crimes

00:01:24.520 so they got him on tax evasion.

00:01:26.780 That's basically what's happening to all of these so-called COVID criminals.

00:01:30.480 They're going to get you no matter what and they're going to keep going after you

00:01:33.560 and keep going after you and keep going after you

00:01:36.080 and it doesn't really matter at a certain point what the underlying charge that sparked it all was about.

00:01:42.860 I saw this in Ontario when the Ontario government was going after churches

00:01:47.160 such as the Church of God in Elmer or other ones in the Waterloo region in eastern Ontario.

00:01:53.440 Pastors that were arrested in Alberta, not just Pawlowski but also others.

00:01:58.420 And the thing about it that was most notable is that at a certain point it's almost cartoonish.

00:02:04.700 Like, I believe that Pastor Jacob Rayom of Trinity Bible Chapel told me at one point

00:02:09.940 that his church had something like $20 million in fines against it

00:02:14.180 and the government just keeps adding more and more

00:02:16.620 and it's not even a real number at that point

00:02:19.380 because there's no way that the church or its leadership can pay it

00:02:23.240 but the government is just going to keep heaping that on them.

00:02:26.560 And that's the problem is that the government isn't interested in the revenue.

00:02:29.720 They want to shut people down.

00:02:31.560 We've, in Ontario now, had a vaccine passport system in place

00:02:36.080 for indoor dining at restaurants and other things for about a week

00:02:40.200 and now there are some businesses that are saying we're not going to do it

00:02:43.980 and they're facing fines upwards of $10 million.

00:02:48.580 And a small business cannot afford a $10 million fine.

00:02:51.840 A small business cannot afford, even in a lot of cases, a $50,000 or $100,000 fine.

00:02:56.700 So what the government is hoping that anyone non-compliant

00:03:00.000 will just cease to operate.

00:03:02.360 And anyone who decides to do their conscientious objection to this

00:03:05.540 at a certain point will, like those churches in Ontario and Alberta,

00:03:10.020 just have the building locked on them.

00:03:13.660 So if you're trying to protest, you might get a few weeks out of it

00:03:16.680 but you're not going to be able to keep it going for all that much longer

00:03:19.940 just knowing how this is happening,

00:03:22.140 knowing that the government is making enforcement the first priority.

00:03:26.400 Now, I will say there have been a couple of examples where it's just been a warning.

00:03:31.360 Chris Skye, who's like a notable anti-masker, anti-vaccine, anti-lockdown, whatever.

00:03:36.740 He seems to be anti-everything.

00:03:38.840 But he had a group of people at a restaurant in my neck of the woods, in London, Ontario.

00:03:43.480 And they were all there with apparently not having shown their vaccine passport,

00:03:47.840 not wearing a mask on the way in.

00:03:49.660 And the restaurant has, believe it or not,

00:03:52.020 they've been chastised by the London, Ontario mayor.

00:03:55.560 The mayor called them all stupid or something like that.

00:03:58.140 But they haven't been fined.

00:03:59.980 They just had to tell the owner of their parent company,

00:04:03.160 because they're a franchise, as well as the city,

00:04:05.340 that, okay, fine, we'll enforce the law moving forward.

00:04:07.880 So they had their fun.

00:04:09.580 I'm looking at an article about Hamilton that says,

00:04:11.760 11 businesses are under active city investigation.

00:04:16.360 The city is supposedly starting with education, but then ramping up to punishment.

00:04:22.580 So one of the women here quoted in this CBC story, 0.97

00:04:25.660 Jenna Graham, who owns a restaurant called the Harbor Diner,

00:04:28.880 says that this is segregation.

00:04:30.780 It's no different than pre-civil rights racism.

00:04:33.700 And she's not going to go down this road.

00:04:35.800 Now she can take that principled stand all she wants. 0.90

00:04:38.580 Eventually she's going to be forced to make the choice between shutting the doors 1.00

00:04:41.900 or going along with it or paying some exorbitant fine that,

00:04:46.080 I mean, I've never been to the Harbor Diner,

00:04:47.480 but I'm guessing the Harbor Diner can't afford to pay.

00:04:49.700 No one can.

00:04:50.600 When you start talking about fines with how many digits is 10,

00:04:53.560 it's 10 digit fines at a certain point.

00:04:56.100 No one can afford that.

00:04:58.620 So this is where we're moving.

00:05:00.540 There's no way to challenge it.

00:05:02.520 There's no way to challenge this.

00:05:04.280 Remember that the Ontario government right now is in this interim phase,

00:05:08.120 where you don't have to use the official Ontario government vaccine passport,

00:05:12.020 which doesn't yet exist,

00:05:13.060 but you just have to show your proof of vaccination.

00:05:15.440 Starting near the end of October, this shifts.

00:05:18.920 And all of a sudden,

00:05:19.900 what you'll have to do is use the government's QR code.

00:05:23.280 And the federal government as well has talked about in December,

00:05:26.580 a temporary vaccine passport coming for international travel.

00:05:30.720 And then in about a year's time,

00:05:33.500 maybe they'll have a permanent one.

00:05:35.000 So we're talking about a mechanism here that goes to almost the beginning of 2023.

00:05:43.060 Government is not interested in making this a temporary way of life.

00:05:48.940 And for all the governments and big tech have talked about needing to curb conspiracy theories,

00:05:54.440 government has done more to foster conspiracy theories than it has done to stop them.

00:06:01.040 Because a lot of these conspiracies that the government has been warning us about,

00:06:04.720 like the permanence of these restrictions,

00:06:06.920 the permanence of vaccine passports,

00:06:08.540 these have materialized.

00:06:10.740 These things are not going to go away.

00:06:14.380 So I'm struggling with this.

00:06:17.200 Because I do not believe that it's fair to take this out on businesses.

00:06:21.640 I really don't.

00:06:22.420 I think it's unfair for the government to force the 14 or 16 year old restaurant host

00:06:26.740 to start checking your vaccine paperwork.

00:06:29.060 But similarly, I think it's unfair for people who object to this

00:06:32.760 to take out their ire on these restaurants and other businesses like gyms

00:06:37.040 who are just trying to get by.

00:06:39.020 So if you're getting angry with the restaurant,

00:06:42.180 don't.

00:06:42.880 Just absolutely don't.

00:06:44.020 It is not their problem.

00:06:45.480 They're trying to get by.

00:06:46.500 We should not allow the government to do what it's trying to do,

00:06:50.460 which is divide people and somehow immunize,

00:06:53.380 no pun intended, itself from the criticism

00:06:55.840 and immunize itself from the anger.

00:06:58.720 And you may say, well, you know,

00:07:00.220 why are more restaurants not protesting?

00:07:02.860 It takes a lot of courage.

00:07:05.520 And more importantly, it takes a lot of self-assurance

00:07:08.040 to do what some of these restaurants are doing right now

00:07:10.460 to say, we're not going to check it.

00:07:11.800 We're not going to enforce that.

00:07:13.140 And I don't blame businesses for not wanting to partake in that fight.

00:07:19.080 Because most of the people that are taking up this fight

00:07:21.380 are going to lose it.

00:07:23.480 And it's a sad reality, but that's going to be the reality of it.

00:07:27.560 So the problem is not the businesses.

00:07:29.340 The problem is the government.

00:07:30.940 And unfortunately, Canadians have, in the last election,

00:07:34.760 endorsed a government that is completely fine with this.

00:07:37.780 And they try to say, yeah, it's up to provinces.

00:07:39.740 But what the Liberals have really done

00:07:41.540 is committed to this idea of stratified society.

00:07:44.940 This is why Justin Trudeau is going down the road

00:07:47.260 of trying to make it mandatory to be vaccinated

00:07:49.280 if you want to fly out to see your grandma in British Columbia,

00:07:52.660 or if you want to hop on a train to go back and forth to school or work,

00:07:56.740 or if you want to work in the government.

00:07:59.580 And it's interesting that this is happening

00:08:01.840 when Justin Trudeau has, and the Liberals in general,

00:08:04.960 have done more to nationalize, I'd say, the economy in the past.

00:08:09.180 So it's not just if you're a federal public servant,

00:08:12.000 but also if you work in a federal sector.

00:08:14.800 So theoretically, when I used to host my daily radio show

00:08:17.500 on a CRTC-regulated radio station,

00:08:20.360 I would have been, or my job would have been,

00:08:21.900 consumed up in this idea, this mandate

00:08:24.840 that the federal government is putting forward,

00:08:27.160 which at this point, interestingly enough, hasn't materialized.

00:08:30.700 It's almost as though Justin Trudeau was trying to use it

00:08:32.700 as a wedge for the conservatives

00:08:34.680 and wasn't actually prepared to go the distance on that.

00:08:37.340 So that's going to be the problem here

00:08:39.580 that we're going to see more and more of,

00:08:41.780 which is people finding that, yeah, vaccines aren't mandatory,

00:08:45.640 but society is closed off, employment is closed off,

00:08:49.440 travel is closed off.

00:08:50.880 All of these things that they would do

00:08:52.760 are no longer able to happen.

00:08:56.500 And the people like Artur Pulaski,

00:08:58.560 and interestingly enough,

00:08:59.640 I spoke about Artur Pulaski a little while ago

00:09:01.920 when that one famous video of him being arrested

00:09:04.140 on the highway took place,

00:09:06.620 and police literally had to carry him,

00:09:09.020 like almost, not hogtied,

00:09:10.380 but it looked like he was hogtied.

00:09:11.900 They had to like carry him to their car

00:09:13.760 because he wasn't going along.

00:09:15.120 And I defended him.

00:09:16.480 I defended him because this is not,

00:09:18.200 in a society that protects freedom of religion,

00:09:20.540 the way members of the clergy should be treated

00:09:23.300 for the sole purpose of deciding to open their churches.

00:09:26.960 And I had people reach out to say,

00:09:28.700 oh, well, you know, yeah, you know, maybe,

00:09:30.340 but have you heard what he said about X?

00:09:32.380 And have you heard his messages?

00:09:33.780 And he's not a guy you should be defending.

00:09:35.600 And I say that's a load of nonsense.

00:09:38.540 If we start saying, well, you know,

00:09:40.680 I don't support his right to have his church open

00:09:44.040 because he might've said something that I disagree.

00:09:45.660 And to be honest, I don't know much about him.

00:09:47.620 I've never met him.

00:09:48.400 I've never interviewed him.

00:09:49.400 I don't care about that game that people like to play

00:09:52.660 of saying, well, you know, yeah,

00:09:54.140 you can't support the right of free speech, for example,

00:09:56.620 of people who use their right to say mean things.

00:09:58.760 I am an absolutist on these things.

00:10:01.640 I support the right of churches and mosques and synagogues

00:10:04.780 and gujaras and temples and any other religious venue

00:10:08.400 to be open.

00:10:09.080 I support the right of businesses to find a way to be open.

00:10:11.960 I support the right of people to speak their mind,

00:10:14.220 even if I deplore what they use their right

00:10:16.860 to free speech to express.

00:10:19.420 So I'm not going to say, well,

00:10:20.820 Artur Pulaski may not be my cup of tea,

00:10:22.640 so I don't care about his rights.

00:10:24.100 It makes me care about it even more

00:10:25.900 because I want the people that don't like the cut of my jib

00:10:29.100 to stand up for my right to free speech

00:10:30.840 when the liberals decide to go after independent media

00:10:34.200 under Bill C-10 or C-36

00:10:36.580 when those things inevitably make a comeback

00:10:38.740 in the upcoming parliament.

00:10:40.400 So when I look at the arrest of Pastor Artur Pulaski,

00:10:45.860 I absolutely think it is egregious.

00:10:48.580 And here's a guy.

00:10:49.160 Now, I may say I'm a little uneasy

00:10:51.780 about a pastor flying private,

00:10:53.360 but these days that's the only way you can get away

00:10:55.700 with apparently not having to worry

00:10:58.080 about being masked in flight or something like that.

00:11:02.040 I was on a flight not that long ago,

00:11:04.340 and I had the flight attendant that wanted you 0.99

00:11:06.080 to put your mask on between sips.

00:11:07.620 So, you know what, if I could afford to fly private,

00:11:10.040 I would do it.

00:11:11.100 I can't fault anyone else for doing that.

00:11:13.540 But what Artur Pulaski's lawyer says,

00:11:16.620 Sarah Miller, who's a great advocate for free speech,

00:11:19.360 is that this was a contempt charge,

00:11:21.900 like I mentioned earlier,

00:11:22.880 an outstanding contempt charge

00:11:24.460 of which there are likely many against him.

00:11:27.240 He was released on bail late last night,

00:11:30.660 and he has to keep the peace and be on good behavior.

00:11:33.740 Now, I don't know how the state in this day and age

00:11:35.980 is defining good behavior,

00:11:38.340 but these are the stipulations

00:11:40.000 that have been heaped upon Artur Pulaski.

00:11:42.820 And he scheduled him and his brother

00:11:45.260 to be sentenced on October 13th

00:11:48.440 for the supposed crime of violating COVID-19 health orders

00:11:52.760 and having illegal gatherings and conducting services

00:11:56.320 without mandating physical distancing

00:11:58.520 and mask mandates and all of these things.

00:12:00.540 So here's a guy who's going to be sentenced.

00:12:02.420 Now, I don't know if they're going to put him in jail.

00:12:04.260 I don't know if they're going to give him a steep fine.

00:12:06.380 I don't know if they're going to sentence him

00:12:07.700 to community service or whatever,

00:12:09.560 but that's coming in two weeks.

00:12:12.100 And we as a country still have to reckon with the idea

00:12:15.860 that we have put pastors behind bars

00:12:19.460 under the auspices of preserving

00:12:22.660 and protecting public health.

00:12:25.780 And a lot of people will point to these stories

00:12:27.960 and say, well, these are the reasons

00:12:29.120 we can't get back to normal.

00:12:30.340 No, people protesting Orwellian orders are not the problem.

00:12:36.200 They're not the barriers to reopening,

00:12:38.560 the reasons that we're not reopening.

00:12:40.020 The reasons we're not reopening,

00:12:41.900 the reasons that normal seems like a distant pipe dream

00:12:44.940 at this point is because of governments

00:12:48.020 that are doing everything they can

00:12:50.840 to prevent and delay normal,

00:12:53.560 to make us forget what normal even is,

00:12:56.220 let alone the idea that it's possible.

00:12:58.160 And that's why there is going to be a permanence to this.

00:13:03.140 Look at it.

00:13:03.820 Israel is a great example.

00:13:05.160 Israel was held up as being the successful story 0.73

00:13:07.580 for how you roll out vaccination.

00:13:09.400 They had its population vaccinated

00:13:10.940 before Canada was even putting its pants on in the morning.

00:13:13.880 And now in Israel, you are not fully vaccinated

00:13:16.520 unless you've gotten your third booster shot.

00:13:18.960 Some people are going to be looking at fourth booster shots.

00:13:22.300 In parts of Canada, third boosters are already becoming the norm,

00:13:26.520 including in Ontario and Alberta.

00:13:29.380 Now, so far, you don't need a booster

00:13:30.820 to be considered fully vaccinated,

00:13:32.260 but there's going to be a point at which that flips

00:13:34.520 because these have gone on so long,

00:13:37.480 because these restrictions will have gone on so long

00:13:39.800 that the supposed immunity you have from dose one and two

00:13:42.680 no longer applies.

00:13:43.840 And it's the opposite of endemic.

00:13:47.420 When they talk about living with COVID

00:13:48.960 and just treating it as though it's endemic,

00:13:51.080 which Dina Hinshaw in Alberta was pilloried for saying, 0.98

00:13:54.480 now it's going to become the permanent pandemic

00:13:56.940 where you need to get your booster shot

00:13:58.940 every three months, every six months,

00:14:00.640 maybe you can get by a year

00:14:01.940 in order to be seen as fully vaccinated.

00:14:05.120 Now, this is something that people should have the right to do

00:14:07.680 if you want that protection.

00:14:08.920 But there are a lot of people that were vaccine hesitant,

00:14:13.840 but ultimately went along with the two shots

00:14:15.800 because of whatever reason,

00:14:17.560 maybe they wanted to be able to dine out,

00:14:19.220 maybe they wanted to travel, who cares?

00:14:21.440 People made their call

00:14:22.460 that are not going to go along with that,

00:14:24.240 then all of a sudden the goalposts have moved yet again

00:14:26.160 and you need a third shot.

00:14:27.820 Or it goes to children even younger than 12.

00:14:31.340 Toronto is, Health Canada has not approved the vaccines

00:14:34.680 for use on children under 12.

00:14:36.700 Toronto is already raring to go.

00:14:39.040 They're itching to start vaccinating kids

00:14:40.780 as young as five years old.

00:14:43.040 So Toronto is saying, yeah, we're ready.

00:14:45.160 Just give us the kids. 0.99

00:14:45.980 We're going to vaccinate these five-year-olds. 1.00

00:14:47.400 A lot of parents that are very pro-vaccine

00:14:49.660 got vaccinated themselves.

00:14:51.300 I've heard from them.

00:14:52.360 They've emailed me.

00:14:53.180 You've emailed me about this saying,

00:14:55.040 yeah, I was fine getting it,

00:14:56.180 but I am not at all subjecting my child to this.

00:14:59.760 And people are going to have to reckon with that.

00:15:02.080 People are going to make their decisions,

00:15:03.280 but this is not going to happen

00:15:05.180 without schools eventually making vaccination mandatory

00:15:08.840 if you want your kid to go to a public

00:15:11.300 or heck, even a private school.

00:15:13.040 They've already done it with post-secondary institutions.

00:15:15.880 It's going to happen as well

00:15:17.540 to public and perhaps non-public schools.

00:15:21.840 So this is where we are headed.

00:15:24.520 And I'm very supportive of the idea

00:15:27.940 that if you don't start standing firm now,

00:15:31.080 you're not going to get a chance later.

00:15:34.740 And this is why I've said,

00:15:36.200 I'm not at all an anti-vaxxer,

00:15:38.900 but I am a civil libertarian.

00:15:41.460 And we need more people who are fully vaccinated,

00:15:44.100 who are completely okay with vaccination

00:15:46.200 to stand up and say,

00:15:47.160 yeah, but what about choice?

00:15:48.900 And not just this mythical idea of choice,

00:15:51.720 but specifically this idea of choice

00:15:54.020 that's been shared with us

00:15:56.060 for the last year and a half by politicians

00:15:58.000 who say, yeah, yeah, it's never going to be mandatory.

00:16:00.100 We encourage it.

00:16:01.100 We're never going to require it.

00:16:03.380 Well, whatever happened to that?

00:16:05.380 We're all in this together

00:16:06.400 becomes we're arresting you on the tarmac

00:16:08.200 because you want to have church services,

00:16:09.820 which becomes we're fining you $10 million

00:16:11.660 if you don't want to check the vaccine paperwork

00:16:13.900 of people dining at your restaurant.

00:16:15.940 So that we're all in this together

00:16:17.100 has never been a bigger lie than it is right now.

00:16:20.460 We've got to take a quick break.

00:16:22.000 When we come back,

00:16:22.660 more of The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:24.140 Stay tuned.

00:16:24.600 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:30.100 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:32.420 Now that we have the federal election behind us,

00:16:35.340 and I think all the ballots

00:16:36.360 or at least almost all of the ballots

00:16:38.280 have been counted,

00:16:39.320 I wanted to turn to some provincial politics

00:16:42.500 that may have some national implications,

00:16:45.200 specifically in Alberta.

00:16:47.140 In October, Albertans will on October 18th,

00:16:50.140 specifically alongside their municipal elections,

00:16:53.160 vote for Senate candidates,

00:16:54.600 and they'll also vote in a referendum

00:16:56.600 on whether equalization should be abolished.

00:17:00.300 Now, equalization is, of course,

00:17:01.840 the constitutional mechanism

00:17:03.560 that has money taken from the wealthy provinces 0.93

00:17:06.680 and redistributed to the poorer provinces.

00:17:09.800 Alberta has always been on the losing end

00:17:11.940 of this transaction,

00:17:12.920 whereas Quebec has always been 0.81

00:17:14.180 on the winning end of it.

00:17:15.540 Now, the problem is,

00:17:16.920 even if 100% of Albertans

00:17:18.640 were to vote yes on this,

00:17:21.120 it isn't binding.

00:17:22.120 The constitution cannot be unilaterally changed

00:17:24.920 by provinces,

00:17:25.660 although what the Alberta government

00:17:27.440 has long held

00:17:28.420 and what Premier Jason Kenney has long held

00:17:30.540 is that such a move

00:17:32.280 would at least give a mandate,

00:17:34.220 and there is precedent that says

00:17:36.080 the federal government

00:17:37.180 would have to negotiate in good faith.

00:17:39.760 So if that many people are saying

00:17:41.080 something's got to change here,

00:17:42.600 the federal government

00:17:43.380 would have a legal obligation

00:17:45.220 to at the very least engage with them.

00:17:47.700 So that's where this would be,

00:17:49.040 and Jason Kenney has said

00:17:50.180 the referendum would give

00:17:51.480 a bargaining chip for this.

00:17:53.360 The problem here is that

00:17:54.580 Western alienation

00:17:55.680 in the last federal election

00:17:57.320 didn't really seem to be

00:17:59.280 all that big a thing.

00:18:00.500 And I'm not saying it's not a thing.

00:18:01.660 I'm just saying it didn't manifest as such.

00:18:03.740 The Maverick Party

00:18:04.740 did not do particularly well.

00:18:06.860 Part of that was because

00:18:07.720 they had a small group of candidates,

00:18:09.600 but more importantly,

00:18:10.860 a lot of the narratives

00:18:11.780 that are around the West

00:18:13.320 were not discussed.

00:18:14.420 No one in the federal election

00:18:15.920 was really talking about them.

00:18:17.280 So if you were a Westerner,

00:18:18.440 you didn't really have a reason

00:18:19.640 to get up and start talking about,

00:18:21.980 oh, well, we need to support

00:18:22.860 this candidate or that candidate.

00:18:25.080 Perhaps the absence of this discussion

00:18:26.960 would have moved people.

00:18:28.280 But I know from covering this issue

00:18:30.260 and spending time out West

00:18:31.700 that a lot of people have said,

00:18:33.380 you know what,

00:18:33.780 if Justin Trudeau gets in again,

00:18:35.160 it's done.

00:18:35.820 We're just over.

00:18:36.820 We want to separate.

00:18:37.980 And nothing short of that will work.

00:18:41.320 Jason Kenney, the Alberta Premier,

00:18:42.920 had a press conference last week.

00:18:44.580 And I wanted to put that question to him.

00:18:46.180 Listen, what does the federal election mean,

00:18:48.260 not just for Alberta

00:18:49.160 in the context of the Alberta economy,

00:18:51.700 but specifically,

00:18:52.540 what does it mean

00:18:53.620 when we're looking at

00:18:54.660 how Western alienation will manifest

00:18:56.960 and that upcoming referendum?

00:18:58.620 This is that exchange

00:18:59.620 with Premier Kenney.

00:19:00.920 Good evening, Premier.

00:19:02.480 Curious about what the federal election

00:19:05.240 means for Albertans.

00:19:07.400 We have a growing problem

00:19:08.920 of Western alienation.

00:19:10.340 A lot of people that were on the fence

00:19:11.780 between simply voting yes

00:19:13.760 on the referendum

00:19:14.520 and pushing for a more aggressive

00:19:16.440 independence or separation measure

00:19:18.420 have often said

00:19:20.060 that if Justin Trudeau gets re-elected,

00:19:22.080 that's it.

00:19:22.800 Curious what this means

00:19:23.820 for your plans moving forward

00:19:25.260 with the referendum

00:19:26.100 and trying to keep the peace.

00:19:27.640 Well, I would note, Andrew,

00:19:30.140 that the de facto Western separatist party,

00:19:34.260 the Maverick party,

00:19:35.140 got only about 1% of the vote

00:19:36.960 in Alberta last night

00:19:38.440 and they couldn't even field

00:19:39.660 a full slate of candidates.

00:19:40.820 I think that's probably understates

00:19:45.760 support for separation

00:19:47.100 in this province significantly,

00:19:48.720 but it is a signal

00:19:50.800 that I believe the vast majority

00:19:53.960 of Albertans are frustrated

00:19:55.800 with how the country works.

00:19:59.000 What frustrates them most

00:20:00.700 is the expectation from Ottawa

00:20:04.620 that we generate so much wealth,

00:20:08.060 so much tax revenue,

00:20:09.300 so many jobs,

00:20:10.840 and yet are hampered

00:20:12.200 by policy after policy

00:20:14.240 clobbering our biggest industry.

00:20:16.860 And so that's the heart

00:20:18.500 of the frustration.

00:20:19.280 As you know,

00:20:19.880 it has a long history.

00:20:23.320 And yet, despite that frustration,

00:20:26.820 I believe that the vast majority

00:20:28.800 of Albertans are also proud Canadians.

00:20:32.240 The majority of Albertans went out

00:20:33.680 and voted in a federal election yesterday.

00:20:35.980 And as I say,

00:20:36.880 1% voted for a separatist party.

00:20:39.300 So what Jason Kenney takes

00:20:40.680 from that poor maverick showing,

00:20:42.120 which he concedes likely understates

00:20:43.900 the effect of independence

00:20:45.460 and separation,

00:20:46.660 is that most Albertans

00:20:48.060 are happy to be in Canada

00:20:49.160 and that if they were unhappy,

00:20:51.060 they would have voted

00:20:51.540 for the maverick party.

00:20:52.540 Now, one of the dynamics

00:20:53.720 that I've talked about in the past

00:20:55.200 is that a lot of the independence-minded people

00:20:57.460 are more interested

00:20:58.740 in provincial change.

00:21:00.040 They're more interested

00:21:00.780 in voting for

00:21:01.540 the Wild Rose Independence Party,

00:21:03.820 led by Paul Hinman,

00:21:05.000 who's been on the show

00:21:05.620 a couple of times

00:21:06.400 than they are in seeking

00:21:08.000 a federal alternative

00:21:09.300 in a party that didn't really manage

00:21:11.420 to get off the ground.

00:21:12.940 Now, I mean,

00:21:13.360 we'll see on October 18th,

00:21:14.940 and we'll talk in a moment

00:21:16.100 with someone who's running the campaign

00:21:18.060 or a campaign

00:21:19.200 to get people to vote yes

00:21:20.900 on that referendum,

00:21:22.660 to get yes on that idea

00:21:25.200 of ending equalization,

00:21:26.960 of stripping it from the Constitution.

00:21:28.940 So I would actually be very nervous

00:21:31.360 about doing what Premier Kenney

00:21:33.360 is doing here

00:21:34.300 in downplaying the anger

00:21:36.700 and frustration,

00:21:37.640 especially with the Liberals

00:21:39.520 having been re-elected.

00:21:40.880 Remember, it was a great shame,

00:21:42.860 I think,

00:21:43.180 that Western integrity,

00:21:45.200 Western alienation,

00:21:46.460 keeping the country together

00:21:47.600 was not really discussed.

00:21:49.380 No one cared about it.

00:21:50.580 There was so much oxygen

00:21:51.680 being given to Quebec

00:21:52.620 from the Liberals

00:21:53.480 and the Conservatives

00:21:54.340 and none given to the West,

00:21:56.160 except for some passing references

00:21:57.620 to pipelines

00:21:58.540 which certainly are important

00:22:00.260 to Alberta

00:22:00.960 but are not the be-all and end-all.

00:22:03.600 They're not the exclusive area of focus.

00:22:05.760 Even within the energy sector,

00:22:07.500 pipelines are not the sole area of concern.

00:22:10.760 So we have a Liberal government

00:22:12.380 that doesn't need Western votes,

00:22:14.600 a Liberal government

00:22:15.440 that doesn't particularly care

00:22:16.800 about Western lives

00:22:17.740 and Western jobs,

00:22:18.920 a Liberal government

00:22:19.740 that wants to subject everyone

00:22:21.200 to a carbon tax

00:22:22.540 to vilify the type of energy

00:22:24.680 on which the West relies,

00:22:26.540 and more importantly,

00:22:27.520 a government

00:22:28.020 that is capitulating to Quebec

00:22:29.540 which basically wants

00:22:31.160 to just claim a veto

00:22:32.400 over any energy projects

00:22:34.160 which thinks that

00:22:34.800 it's all dirty energy.

00:22:36.440 And like I said,

00:22:37.220 we'll talk about this

00:22:37.800 in a moment with Kevin Lacey,

00:22:39.140 but the whole point is

00:22:40.280 the West has nothing

00:22:41.900 going for it right now

00:22:43.240 in the federal government.

00:22:44.980 Oh, no, no, no.

00:22:45.580 The Liberals elected

00:22:46.340 a couple of MPs

00:22:47.320 in Alberta.

00:22:48.220 Great.

00:22:48.580 That is not going to do anything.

00:22:50.060 If like Randy Boissoneau

00:22:51.220 is all of a sudden

00:22:51.880 like the Minister

00:22:52.500 of Western Economic Diversification,

00:22:54.940 I don't think anyone

00:22:55.900 in the West

00:22:56.480 will be further ahead

00:22:57.780 than they are

00:22:58.940 prior to that re-election

00:23:00.700 or even had Conservatives

00:23:02.380 managed to win.

00:23:04.000 So all of this

00:23:04.740 just to say

00:23:05.220 it's bad news for the West

00:23:06.620 and right now

00:23:07.320 the only outlet

00:23:08.520 they really have

00:23:09.700 is that referendum vote.

00:23:11.780 But again,

00:23:12.260 it's not binding.

00:23:13.160 It's not compelling.

00:23:14.080 What's going to happen

00:23:15.100 if Justin Trudeau

00:23:16.120 looks at a referendum

00:23:17.440 that was successful

00:23:18.460 and only has to just say,

00:23:20.800 yeah, yeah,

00:23:21.160 I'll hear you out.

00:23:22.360 I mean,

00:23:22.640 bargaining in good faith.

00:23:23.540 He has to sit down with them.

00:23:24.920 It's not compelling any action.

00:23:26.820 So nevertheless,

00:23:27.820 that's not to say

00:23:28.540 it isn't important

00:23:29.320 which is why

00:23:29.900 there has been this campaign

00:23:31.100 launched by Kevin Lacey

00:23:33.220 who is the Alberta Director

00:23:34.420 of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation

00:23:36.200 called Fight Equalization

00:23:38.760 telling Albertans

00:23:40.120 why they should vote

00:23:41.320 against equalization.

00:23:43.000 Kevin Lacey joins me now.

00:23:44.780 Kevin,

00:23:45.080 it's good to talk to you.

00:23:45.860 Thanks for coming on today.

00:23:47.380 Andrew,

00:23:47.720 thanks for having me.

00:23:48.740 So we've got a few weeks left

00:23:50.620 until the referendum.

00:23:51.540 For those who haven't

00:23:52.360 been following it here,

00:23:53.540 I know the question

00:23:54.360 is about removing it

00:23:55.860 from the Constitution

00:23:56.700 but fundamentally,

00:23:58.560 what is really at play

00:23:59.680 here for people?

00:24:00.780 Fundamentally,

00:24:01.300 it's about the unfairness

00:24:02.400 of the equalization formula

00:24:03.800 to the province of Alberta

00:24:05.220 and what the problem is

00:24:07.600 is that Alberta for years

00:24:09.540 has been contributing

00:24:10.640 far more

00:24:11.720 than we've been getting back

00:24:13.320 and you would think

00:24:14.020 that that good,

00:24:15.060 that contributing

00:24:16.360 that amount of money

00:24:17.260 would buy you

00:24:17.980 some goodwill,

00:24:19.100 that it would get you

00:24:19.840 something in return

00:24:20.760 and instead,

00:24:21.540 all we've gotten

00:24:22.240 as a result

00:24:23.280 of all those contributions

00:24:24.380 is we've seen

00:24:25.460 our energy blocked

00:24:26.620 in respect to pipelines.

00:24:28.500 We've battled

00:24:29.380 with British Columbia

00:24:31.140 and Quebec

00:24:31.600 both with regards

00:24:32.720 to getting those pipelines built.

00:24:34.700 We've seen a carbon tax

00:24:36.080 from Ottawa.

00:24:37.080 So we keep contributing

00:24:38.540 and contributing

00:24:39.440 and contributing

00:24:40.260 and being generous.

00:24:42.260 Yet at the same time,

00:24:43.900 provinces

00:24:44.640 and the federal government

00:24:45.660 are basically sticking it to us

00:24:47.780 and not giving us

00:24:50.020 the things

00:24:50.400 that we need to succeed.

00:24:52.220 Yeah,

00:24:52.720 and I think Quebec

00:24:53.340 is a particularly notable

00:24:54.760 example of this.

00:24:55.880 The Quebec government,

00:24:56.840 even an ostensibly

00:24:57.680 conservative government

00:24:58.700 in Quebec,

00:24:59.380 has come in

00:25:00.160 with a very anti-Canadian

00:25:01.680 energy agenda and plan.

00:25:03.580 We have the Premier,

00:25:04.860 Francois Legault,

00:25:05.640 calling Alberta oil

00:25:06.700 dirty energy.

00:25:08.040 Yet Quebec still insists

00:25:09.660 on the money from Alberta

00:25:11.300 that only comes,

00:25:12.360 generally speaking,

00:25:12.980 because of the success

00:25:14.100 of this sector.

00:25:15.760 Well, that's exactly right.

00:25:17.100 And, you know,

00:25:17.540 so the entire equalization envelope

00:25:20.320 is about $20 billion.

00:25:22.020 Quebec gets about $13 billion

00:25:23.820 of that,

00:25:24.220 which means they get 65%

00:25:26.640 of all the equalization dollars.

00:25:28.980 And to put that in perspective,

00:25:30.780 each Quebec resident,

00:25:32.100 that equals about $1,500 per person.

00:25:35.700 That's a lot of money

00:25:36.880 that Quebec is getting 0.90

00:25:38.380 from the rest of Canada.

00:25:40.040 At the same time then,

00:25:41.500 Quebec,

00:25:41.920 while it takes this amount

00:25:42.900 of money from Canada,

00:25:44.820 rejects Canada's resources

00:25:46.600 and rejects particularly

00:25:48.640 Alberta's resources,

00:25:49.900 the one that's contributing

00:25:50.960 a large portion

00:25:52.160 of that money to it.

00:25:53.260 Imagine if it was,

00:25:54.420 if, Andrew,

00:25:55.940 you were meeting your friends

00:25:57.500 and you were generous enough

00:25:59.440 to provide them

00:26:01.240 some extra,

00:26:02.560 a little extra cash

00:26:03.420 and then you asked them

00:26:04.100 for a little favor

00:26:04.840 and they told you

00:26:05.440 to go pound sand.

00:26:07.200 That's essentially

00:26:08.140 what Quebec is doing

00:26:09.340 to Alberta.

00:26:09.920 And for years,

00:26:11.400 Alberta's just kind of

00:26:12.700 put up with it

00:26:13.420 and sure,

00:26:14.100 they've made a few statements

00:26:15.240 here and there.

00:26:16.080 This goes way back

00:26:16.860 to Peter Lougheed

00:26:17.700 in the 1980s

00:26:18.800 when Lougheed,

00:26:20.280 during both the Charlottetown Accord

00:26:22.040 and the Meech Lake Accord,

00:26:23.440 put his foot down

00:26:24.280 and said that Alberta

00:26:25.120 wasn't going to contribute

00:26:26.100 more than their fair share,

00:26:28.120 but yet it continued.

00:26:29.880 Then Ralph Klein came in,

00:26:31.900 he stood up to Ottawa,

00:26:33.600 but then the payments

00:26:34.420 kept continued

00:26:35.400 after Klein.

00:26:36.840 Then the government changed

00:26:38.340 and even Premier Notley,

00:26:39.720 who was an NDP Premier,

00:26:41.980 she put her foot down

00:26:43.060 and said this equalization

00:26:44.080 formula is not fair

00:26:44.960 to Alberta

00:26:45.460 and nothing ever changed.

00:26:47.860 So to Jason Kenney's credit,

00:26:49.900 the current Premier of Alberta,

00:26:51.760 he's decided that,

00:26:53.280 look,

00:26:53.600 enough is enough.

00:26:55.480 We can keep going to Canada

00:26:57.180 and complaining

00:26:58.000 about the equalization formula

00:26:59.300 and complaining

00:26:59.840 about what Quebec's saying,

00:27:01.260 but we're not getting anywhere.

00:27:02.900 So we need to go out

00:27:03.980 and have this referendum,

00:27:05.020 which is happening

00:27:05.780 on October 18th,

00:27:07.220 and show Canada

00:27:08.580 that Albertans are mad

00:27:10.420 that their money

00:27:11.080 is being mistreated

00:27:12.140 and they want to see real change.

00:27:14.480 And to be honest,

00:27:15.260 at this point,

00:27:16.040 I'm not sure

00:27:16.560 what is really left

00:27:17.740 for the government

00:27:18.340 of Alberta to do.

00:27:19.620 They're really at a last straw

00:27:21.040 and this is a last ditch effort

00:27:23.160 to try to make

00:27:23.840 some real changes.

00:27:25.160 Is the issue

00:27:26.120 the formula for equalization

00:27:28.140 or the existence

00:27:29.020 of equalization itself

00:27:30.540 with the caveat

00:27:31.260 for those not familiar

00:27:32.320 that actually getting rid of it

00:27:34.320 would require

00:27:34.900 a constitutional amendment,

00:27:36.080 but amending the formula

00:27:37.200 is actually relatively simple.

00:27:39.780 Yeah, I think for us

00:27:41.320 in particular,

00:27:42.040 what we want to see

00:27:42.740 is reform of the system.

00:27:45.180 And we also,

00:27:45.980 I think a lot of this,

00:27:47.000 Andrew,

00:27:47.280 is actually political,

00:27:48.860 which is we want to assert

00:27:50.220 what the grievance

00:27:52.360 of Alberta is

00:27:53.400 in the hope

00:27:54.300 that recipient provinces

00:27:56.020 will understand

00:27:56.920 the position

00:27:57.540 of the province

00:27:58.260 and start to embrace

00:28:00.060 some of the things

00:28:01.100 that is allowing this money

00:28:03.000 to come into their province.

00:28:04.060 So really what I think

00:28:05.520 we're looking for

00:28:06.220 is some goodwill

00:28:07.140 on behalf of many

00:28:08.260 of these premiers

00:28:09.000 who are sticking it

00:28:10.580 to Alberta.

00:28:12.320 So reform is part of it.

00:28:14.300 The equalization question

00:28:15.540 actually asks,

00:28:16.560 do we support

00:28:17.160 removing the constitution,

00:28:19.420 removing equalization

00:28:20.520 from the constitution?

00:28:22.740 And I think that's really

00:28:24.380 the whole point of that

00:28:25.720 is to just kind of

00:28:26.580 lay the marker

00:28:27.440 for what Alberta expects

00:28:29.260 in the upcoming years

00:28:30.240 with regards to

00:28:30.900 continued negotiations

00:28:32.200 on equalization.

00:28:34.440 Yeah, and one thing

00:28:35.640 that I think is important

00:28:36.440 to point out here

00:28:37.240 is that Alberta's obviously

00:28:38.320 had some great times

00:28:39.400 over the years,

00:28:40.220 but in the last few years

00:28:41.700 with the downturn

00:28:42.500 in the sector,

00:28:43.740 the oil and gas sector,

00:28:44.960 which is the predominant

00:28:46.160 source of wealth

00:28:46.780 in Alberta,

00:28:47.420 things have been a bit tough.

00:28:48.660 But the province

00:28:49.260 has still been on the hook

00:28:50.300 for equalization

00:28:51.160 in those more difficult years.

00:28:53.700 Yeah, and that's been

00:28:54.300 a really tough pill

00:28:55.400 to swallow

00:28:56.120 because you haven't,

00:28:57.300 like over the last

00:28:58.020 six and a half year,

00:28:59.320 Alberta's really had

00:29:00.420 a rough go.

00:29:01.380 And many, you know,

00:29:02.440 at one point

00:29:03.040 we were in double digits

00:29:04.080 in unemployment,

00:29:05.380 one of the highest

00:29:06.340 unemployment rates

00:29:07.040 in all of Canada.

00:29:10.480 So we've had

00:29:11.180 a really rough time.

00:29:12.720 Some of that is

00:29:13.580 as a result of

00:29:14.680 poor policies

00:29:16.740 out of Ottawa.

00:29:18.080 Some of that

00:29:18.580 is also related

00:29:20.160 outside the border,

00:29:21.380 which is just

00:29:21.860 the cost of energy

00:29:23.360 and the price of oil.

00:29:26.160 But families

00:29:27.340 Sevilla had

00:29:27.860 a really hard time.

00:29:29.060 The province

00:29:29.860 has not had the money

00:29:30.720 to fund, say,

00:29:31.460 schools and hospitals

00:29:32.780 and building new roads.

00:29:35.280 Yet they see

00:29:36.240 down a few,

00:29:38.180 you know,

00:29:38.460 down a few flights

00:29:39.660 away in Quebec,

00:29:41.120 things are going

00:29:41.800 really, really well.

00:29:42.920 And meanwhile,

00:29:43.820 our money,

00:29:44.400 when it's needed

00:29:44.880 here at home,

00:29:45.560 is going to

00:29:46.340 a province like Quebec,

00:29:47.780 which doesn't need it.

00:29:49.340 So that's the type

00:29:50.780 of reform

00:29:51.380 that I think

00:29:52.040 we need to see.

00:29:53.720 And I think

00:29:54.080 if you're one

00:29:54.620 of those families

00:29:55.240 that's struggling

00:29:55.860 to make ends meet

00:29:56.760 and watching

00:29:57.560 your tax dollars

00:29:58.280 go to other parts

00:29:59.080 of the country

00:29:59.540 while at the same time

00:30:00.460 your schools

00:30:01.100 are suffering,

00:30:02.320 you've got a big

00:30:03.260 problem with that.

00:30:04.840 Yeah, and I know

00:30:05.880 that just looking

00:30:06.580 at the numbers here,

00:30:07.360 you mentioned

00:30:07.780 how much

00:30:08.320 the average Quebecer,

00:30:09.820 how much it works

00:30:10.480 out to be on average

00:30:11.440 that a Quebecer

00:30:12.540 is receiving from this.

00:30:13.640 On the flip side

00:30:14.420 of it,

00:30:14.740 you have the average

00:30:15.540 Albertan

00:30:16.100 having to pay

00:30:18.840 $600,

00:30:19.780 I believe it is,

00:30:20.640 on this.

00:30:20.920 $3 billion a year

00:30:22.040 that the province

00:30:22.640 is spending.

00:30:23.180 And if you're

00:30:23.420 an Alberta taxpayer,

00:30:24.640 that's $3 billion

00:30:25.700 that's not going

00:30:26.420 to fix the roads,

00:30:27.360 that's not going

00:30:27.880 into the healthcare system,

00:30:28.980 which we've been hearing

00:30:29.620 a lot about in Alberta,

00:30:31.040 that's not going

00:30:31.640 into schools.

00:30:32.260 That's a lot of money.

00:30:33.720 Yeah, and then

00:30:34.320 the fiscal situation

00:30:35.400 here isn't that hot either.

00:30:37.600 And, you know,

00:30:38.340 that's maybe a debate

00:30:39.220 for another show

00:30:39.920 of how we ended up there.

00:30:42.240 But given that

00:30:43.440 Alberta families

00:30:44.520 are struggling themselves,

00:30:46.540 and I think

00:30:46.980 if most families

00:30:48.700 and most Albertans

00:30:49.560 are willing to be generous

00:30:50.600 with the rest of the country,

00:30:51.740 they have been

00:30:52.220 for many, many years.

00:30:54.200 But given these tough times

00:30:56.080 when everyone else

00:30:57.680 is cutting back,

00:30:58.980 the equalization formula

00:31:00.080 actually with the way

00:31:00.980 it's set up

00:31:01.460 is going to increase

00:31:02.540 over the next few years.

00:31:03.740 So this commitment

00:31:04.620 that Albertans are under

00:31:06.700 at a time

00:31:07.340 when they don't have

00:31:08.020 any money

00:31:08.380 is actually just increasing.

00:31:10.240 And that puts a strain

00:31:11.960 on the public services

00:31:13.060 even higher

00:31:13.860 and makes it more difficult

00:31:15.520 to take that this money

00:31:17.020 is being sent to Ottawa.

00:31:18.600 So let's talk about

00:31:19.660 the campaign itself.

00:31:20.820 I'm assuming you're doing

00:31:21.440 more than just chatting

00:31:22.280 with me,

00:31:22.740 although I love

00:31:23.520 having you on the show.

00:31:24.660 What are you going

00:31:25.220 to be doing

00:31:25.560 between now

00:31:26.220 and October 18th?

00:31:27.680 So we've launched

00:31:28.580 a separate society

00:31:31.420 called Society

00:31:32.160 for Albertans

00:31:33.620 Against Equalization.

00:31:35.180 We're going to be

00:31:35.920 heading out

00:31:36.500 and campaigning

00:31:37.300 on the road

00:31:37.960 trying to convince

00:31:39.120 Albertans to vote yes

00:31:40.520 in this referendum

00:31:41.420 to remove equalization

00:31:43.880 from the Constitution.

00:31:45.860 We've just launched

00:31:46.740 new radio ads

00:31:47.640 that are on our website.

00:31:48.820 Feel free to check them out

00:31:50.380 that are talking

00:31:52.700 about this issue.

00:31:53.720 Our new billboards

00:31:54.440 will be going up

00:31:54.980 later on in the week

00:31:55.840 and we'll be continuing

00:31:57.340 to do things like

00:31:58.280 you and I are doing today,

00:31:59.600 Andrew,

00:31:59.780 just to try to talk

00:32:00.580 to more and more Canadians

00:32:02.080 and more and more,

00:32:02.840 particularly Albertans,

00:32:04.040 about getting out to vote

00:32:05.240 on October 18th,

00:32:06.480 voting yes

00:32:07.200 in the referendum

00:32:08.800 and finally

00:32:10.260 standing up for Alberta

00:32:12.060 so that Alberta

00:32:13.100 can make a stand

00:32:14.080 and don't continually

00:32:15.420 see our money go

00:32:16.480 to when our money

00:32:18.420 is not respected.

00:32:20.000 And what constitutes

00:32:20.740 a win for you on this?

00:32:22.820 I think, look,

00:32:23.680 I think we're going

00:32:24.760 to have to see

00:32:25.240 election night

00:32:25.920 what the win is.

00:32:27.840 These, let's be honest,

00:32:30.120 referendums in Canada

00:32:31.180 are always unpredictable

00:32:32.240 and there's a lot

00:32:34.040 of politics going on

00:32:35.960 in Alberta

00:32:36.400 that's far outside

00:32:38.180 of the referendum

00:32:39.000 but really anything

00:32:40.500 over 50%

00:32:41.360 is a victory for us.

00:32:42.840 Yeah, that's the majority

00:32:43.660 of Albertan saying

00:32:44.520 that they can't really

00:32:45.300 abide by the status quo.

00:32:47.000 So, very well said.

00:32:48.200 You can find out more

00:32:48.960 about the campaign

00:32:49.680 at fightequalization.ca.

00:32:51.740 Kevin Lacey

00:32:52.240 is the campaign director

00:32:53.820 and Alberta director

00:32:54.800 for the Canadian

00:32:55.620 Taxpayers Federation.

00:32:57.000 Kevin, thanks for coming on today.

00:32:58.180 Good to talk to you as always.

00:32:59.280 Thanks for having me.

00:33:00.500 We will certainly be covering that

00:33:02.300 in the weeks to come.

00:33:03.460 My thanks to all of you

00:33:04.420 for tuning into the show

00:33:05.660 and to Kevin Lacey

00:33:06.960 for coming on.

00:33:07.800 We will talk to you later this week

00:33:09.300 with more of Canada's

00:33:10.540 most irreverent talk show.

00:33:12.020 Thank you, God bless

00:33:12.860 and good day to you all.

00:33:14.520 Thanks for listening

00:33:15.200 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:33:16.720 Support the program

00:33:17.440 by donating to True North

00:33:18.680 at www.tnc.news.

00:33:21.840 www.tnc.news.com

00:33:25.800 www.tnc.news.com

00:33:26.360 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - September 29, 2021

Pastor Artur Pawlowski has been arrested... again

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