Juno News - Patrick Brown goes nuclear

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.340 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.700 Coming up, as the Conservative leadership race wages on,

00:00:14.000 are candidates talking about issues that matter to Conservative Canadians?

00:00:18.000 Certainly not at last week's debate in Edmonton.

00:00:21.140 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:25.600 Hello and welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:28.600 This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North,

00:00:32.420 a rare Monday edition of the program on Monday, May 16, 2022.

00:00:37.680 Last week was a little wonky, as I mentioned, and as you may have heard,

00:00:41.260 I was in Edmonton covering the Conservative Party of Canada's leadership debate,

00:00:46.080 the first official debate, official debate, because the party itself put it on

00:00:52.180 and they didn't put on the one at the Canada Strong and Free Conference

00:00:55.300 that Candace Milcom and Jameel Javani moderated.

00:00:59.000 But I must say, if that was official, I far prefer unofficial,

00:01:03.580 because the unofficial debate didn't have questions about what books you're reading,

00:01:07.380 what historical figure you'd like to have dinner with,

00:01:09.880 what Netflix show you liked, or what other streaming program you're binge-watching.

00:01:15.120 And so much so that I'm like,

00:01:16.220 I'm wondering if that's just going to be what electoral platforms are now.

00:01:19.120 You open the page, you open the book, there's like a one-page thing on balance, budgets, taxes,

00:01:24.380 and then the rest of it is just your reviews of all the movies, books, and podcasts,

00:01:29.020 and all of that that you're encountering.

00:01:31.660 Now, to be fair, I don't know if Tom Clark came up with the format,

00:01:36.100 or if the party said,

00:01:37.260 hey Tom, we'd like you to moderate the debate, here's the format,

00:01:40.380 and for whatever reason, he didn't just throw it out and walk out the room right there.

00:01:43.960 I don't know what happened, but I do know that it was a profound humiliation.

00:01:47.580 Questions on complex policies reduced to 15 seconds,

00:01:51.820 a waste of time questions to get to know your candidates

00:01:55.120 that don't actually tell you anything of substance about them.

00:01:58.740 And by the end of it, you have these paddles that you have to put up.

00:02:02.100 I don't know if you saw this,

00:02:03.100 but the candidates have to put up their paddles if they want to respond to something.

00:02:07.020 And if they run out of paddling,

00:02:08.920 then even if a candidate directly attacks them,

00:02:11.580 they don't get to respond because,

00:02:12.920 oh, well, you've used up your four paddles.

00:02:14.660 Watching it was just absolutely absurd.

00:02:19.060 So I was looking forward to the scrums afterwards,

00:02:21.660 because at the scrums, at least there was an opportunity

00:02:23.800 for candidates to give a direct response to a direct question

00:02:27.140 that wasn't about what they're watching on TV.

00:02:30.800 I know I keep going back to that,

00:02:32.380 but let's be real here.

00:02:33.520 This is not a debate.

00:02:34.960 And this is, as I've always said,

00:02:36.360 not what Conservative Party of Canada members

00:02:38.660 care about when they're deciding who to vote for

00:02:41.460 to be their leader and eventually to become,

00:02:44.200 they hope, the next Prime Minister.

00:02:46.100 So I am going to be talking a lot about

00:02:48.940 what's been happening in the Conservative leadership race

00:02:51.680 the last couple of weeks.

00:02:53.160 You may remember I was at the Canada Strong and Free Conference

00:02:56.100 a couple of weeks back and did some interviews there,

00:02:58.600 including one with Conservative leadership candidate Scott Aitchison

00:03:01.520 that I'll share later on in the program.

00:03:04.120 But I first want to talk about some of the themes

00:03:06.240 that emerged from the debate in Edmonton

00:03:08.460 that I thought were quite interesting.

00:03:11.420 And one of them was Leslyn Lewis.

00:03:13.940 Now, Leslyn Lewis is quite an interesting one

00:03:16.640 because I think on paper she does what a lot of people

00:03:18.820 in our audience want her to do.

00:03:20.320 She takes aim at global institutions

00:03:22.440 that she feels Canada is giving up its sovereignty to.

00:03:25.760 She is unafraid to talk about social issues.

00:03:29.100 She's been very poised and polished in a lot of things she's done.

00:03:32.340 I didn't feel the debate performance was her strongest.

00:03:35.740 And I don't know what it was.

00:03:37.740 Maybe she was nervous.

00:03:38.920 Maybe she just felt underprepared.

00:03:40.560 Maybe the campaign's just not going as well for her. 0.89

00:03:43.280 So it's just a bit of a different space that she has to occupy.

00:03:46.020 But I was looking and I just wasn't getting the clarity and fire

00:03:49.500 that you get from her tweets

00:03:51.300 and you get from some interviews with her.

00:03:53.580 And even afterwards, I asked a couple of questions of her

00:03:56.480 that I thought certainly the first one would be a slam dunk.

00:04:00.880 I thought this was an easy one that she could come out. 0.78

00:04:03.100 I wasn't trying to give her a softball,

00:04:04.720 but I thought it was one that was in her wheelhouse

00:04:06.640 so she'd be able to give a really clear, concise, and direct answer.

00:04:10.700 And I'm not sure she did.

00:04:12.540 Good evening, Andrew Lawton, True North.

00:04:14.380 Earlier today, the Correctional Service of Canada

00:04:16.740 confirmed its policy that biologically male inmates

00:04:21.420 can be reassigned to women's prisons based on preference alone. 1.00

00:04:26.100 I was wondering what you think about that policy

00:04:27.480 and if you would reverse that as Prime Minister.

00:04:30.780 Well, I think it's very important that people,

00:04:33.980 whatever their gender,

00:04:36.040 has a certain level of comfort in certain situations.

00:04:42.100 I also think that there are situations

00:04:43.900 where biological females may feel a sense of vulnerability 0.99

00:04:51.300 because of the situations that they may have been in,

00:04:56.680 for example, if they were sexually assaulted by a male, etc.

00:05:01.220 And so we have to make sure that we find compassionate ways

00:05:05.320 to accommodate the diversity of individuals

00:05:11.280 that will find themselves in a facility,

00:05:16.440 whether it is a shelter or whether it is a correctional facility.

00:05:21.300 So in fairness to Leslyn Lewis,

00:05:23.500 she is saying there that, yeah,

00:05:24.780 there are some areas where women are going to be, 1.00

00:05:27.220 because of their own experiences and identity, more vulnerable.

00:05:29.940 We need to be respectful and that.

00:05:31.720 But ultimately, it wasn't just a direct answer

00:05:34.900 to the question in the sense of what I think other people,

00:05:38.940 what I think ordinary people care about.

00:05:40.800 I mean, I just wrote a column about this

00:05:42.180 that's going to be coming out in the interim next month

00:05:44.400 in which I said, you know, the reality of this issue

00:05:47.400 is that it's like the Emperor's New Clothes

00:05:49.620 in that most people view it the same way

00:05:53.140 but are just so afraid of saying it.

00:05:55.400 And in the end, it sort of makes it look like

00:05:57.460 this is more controversial and more contentious

00:06:00.080 than it actually is, same as trans athletes in sports.

00:06:02.620 But in this case, we're talking about something

00:06:04.280 that's directly under the government's control,

00:06:06.080 which is transgender identification in prisons

00:06:09.740 and being able to just on a whim say,

00:06:11.720 oh, you know, I'd actually like to be in a women's prison today. 1.00

00:06:14.440 And I mean, again, if you read the policy,

00:06:16.700 there's no saying they couldn't just switch back and forth

00:06:19.580 on a day-by-day basis.

00:06:20.760 Say, oh, you know, I hear they're serving lasagna

00:06:23.040 in the men's prison.

00:06:23.900 I'm a man today.

00:06:25.120 And then, oh, you know, I don't actually know women. 0.92

00:06:28.460 I want to be in the women's side today. 1.00

00:06:30.020 Who knows what's going on there?

00:06:31.640 So that's going to be something here.

00:06:33.880 But again, it's possible to talk about these things

00:06:36.820 that matter and should matter.

00:06:39.220 And we should be embracing debates that have these things.

00:06:42.620 We should be embracing debates that talk about the issues

00:06:45.180 that matter to Conservatives.

00:06:46.520 And Candace and Jameel did a great job of this.

00:06:48.680 I don't think Tom Clark did.

00:06:50.420 Now, how much control he had over the questions,

00:06:52.220 I don't know.

00:06:53.320 But if I were looking at that as a member

00:06:55.020 of the Conservative Party of Canada,

00:06:56.560 wanting to know which leadership candidate to vote for,

00:06:59.840 I would be coming out of this saying, like, okay,

00:07:03.800 well, Patrick Brown likes the show Ozark

00:07:06.120 and Pierre Pauliev is reading Jordan Peterson's book

00:07:09.320 and Leslie Lewis wants to have dinner

00:07:11.140 with William Wilberforce.

00:07:12.620 Um, okay, so my taxes are going to go up, down.

00:07:18.280 CBC is getting funded, defunded.

00:07:20.500 My firearms license is like, you get nothing from that.

00:07:24.680 And then you take the opportunity,

00:07:27.100 the opportunity that these candidates have

00:07:29.200 to talk about Conservative issues

00:07:30.600 when once they are the leader,

00:07:33.180 the mainstream media will give them no such opportunity.

00:07:35.600 So if you don't allow them and force them

00:07:37.620 to talk about things that matter to Conservatives now,

00:07:39.720 you're never going to hear them talk about these things.

00:07:42.500 And I will say Roman Babber did a tremendous job.

00:07:45.460 He was very polished.

00:07:46.740 He had answers.

00:07:47.760 And when I asked him a question in the scrum after,

00:07:50.280 he seemed to genuinely approach it

00:07:52.260 with a level of thoughtfulness.

00:07:53.960 Now, he was couching.

00:07:55.080 He was couching what he was saying in a little bit.

00:07:57.120 But I don't know if that was genuinely

00:07:58.760 because he didn't want to commit to something on the fly

00:08:01.400 that he wasn't sure if he would be able to follow through on.

00:08:04.460 Take a look at that exchange.

00:08:06.460 Good evening, Andrew Lawton, True North.

00:08:08.180 You've been unequivocally against vaccine mandates.

00:08:10.960 That obviously includes mandates for public sector workers.

00:08:13.820 If you were Prime Minister,

00:08:14.980 would you rehire anyone who was fired

00:08:17.880 because of vaccine mandates?

00:08:19.300 And if so, would you give them retroactive pay

00:08:21.420 for a time they missed?

00:08:23.280 So 100% I would mandate.

00:08:25.360 I try to pass similar legislation in Ontario,

00:08:27.400 the Jobs and Jobs Act,

00:08:28.840 that would retroactively protect workers.

00:08:31.420 We have to think about how we're going to go about that.

00:08:33.760 We certainly want to try and put them

00:08:35.220 in the position that they would have otherwise been.

00:08:37.680 I'm not sure if we're going to do that through EI.

00:08:39.460 I'm also not sure how we're going to go about that

00:08:41.420 when it comes to those that are not unionized.

00:08:43.920 Those that are unionized should be a lot easier.

00:08:46.120 Those that are not unionized,

00:08:47.580 going to have to give that some thought.

00:08:48.920 But I think that it's inhumane to make someone choose

00:08:51.460 between their ability to put food on the table

00:08:53.200 and their personal health care choice.

00:08:55.060 We've got to do right by all Canadians.

00:08:57.400 Now that's an important issue

00:08:58.420 and one that I haven't heard

00:08:59.680 a lot of candidates talking about,

00:09:01.620 which is why I, I mean, I'm being a bit gratuitous here,

00:09:03.820 but why I asked it, okay, you're against mandates.

00:09:05.960 You think these people should be back to work.

00:09:07.580 Do you think they should be made whole

00:09:09.100 for what they lost solely because of the mandates?

00:09:12.420 And there's no right answer or wrong answer.

00:09:14.560 It would just be nice to know

00:09:15.600 what candidates are prepared to do.

00:09:17.580 And if they're prepared to really try to rectify

00:09:20.760 this profound injustice

00:09:21.960 that has been the vaccine mandates

00:09:24.200 on the public sector workforce

00:09:25.600 and on Canadians as a whole, again,

00:09:27.560 who still can't take up jobs in a lot of sectors,

00:09:30.280 who can't board planes, trains, and so on and so forth.

00:09:33.880 So these are, again, some of the issues.

00:09:35.820 And I'm not claiming to have the monopoly

00:09:37.640 on what matters to conservatives.

00:09:39.220 I'm just talking about the fact that

00:09:40.760 these are the substantive policy issues

00:09:42.880 that desperately need to be injected

00:09:44.560 into a leadership race

00:09:46.400 and aren't under the debate

00:09:48.520 that the party officially put forward.

00:09:50.040 I know they have another French debate coming up

00:09:51.820 on the 25th, but this is one of the reasons

00:09:54.300 the Independent Press Gallery

00:09:55.520 has put together its debate for May 30th,

00:09:58.520 which I have the privilege of moderating

00:10:00.080 because we need to start showcasing

00:10:02.000 some of these concerns

00:10:03.040 that people are actually talking about.

00:10:05.000 The people in our audience are messaging me saying,

00:10:06.980 hey, what do you think about this?

00:10:08.280 What do you think about that?

00:10:09.920 And that's the goal here,

00:10:10.960 to start talking about these things

00:10:12.300 so that we can hold the eventual leader accountable.

00:10:16.140 One of the big things,

00:10:17.200 if I go back in time a bit,

00:10:18.700 one of the big things that I think

00:10:19.940 worked against Aaron O'Toole

00:10:21.100 in his leadership of the Conservative Party,

00:10:24.100 especially during and after the election,

00:10:26.160 was that he had put on the record

00:10:27.900 some very decisive policies

00:10:29.700 during the leadership race,

00:10:31.360 these red meat, true blue Conservative policies

00:10:33.620 that he was not prepared to live up on

00:10:36.140 in the general,

00:10:37.260 like defunding CBC,

00:10:38.780 like firearms rights,

00:10:40.040 like conscience rights.

00:10:41.440 So because he was forced to be on record

00:10:44.520 in the leadership race,

00:10:45.940 there was a record to hold him to account to

00:10:48.820 when he was the leader.

00:10:51.280 I don't even know if we got that

00:10:52.920 out of the debate last week.

00:10:54.960 And again, when I talk about clarity of answer,

00:10:57.300 I have to give credit to Jean Charest here

00:10:59.060 because this is a guy who clearly

00:11:00.460 is not the favourite in the room.

00:11:03.060 And I've never seen a room of Conservatives

00:11:05.080 in which he was the favourite

00:11:06.160 in the race so far.

00:11:07.780 If I look at in Ottawa

00:11:09.060 and I look at in Edmonton,

00:11:11.020 where he was the only candidate,

00:11:12.400 so far as I saw,

00:11:13.280 who got booed for something he said.

00:11:15.000 And it was the same issue both times.

00:11:17.620 Opposition to the Freedom Convoy

00:11:19.360 and specifically trying to criticise

00:11:22.080 Pierre Pollyevre for supporting the convoy.

00:11:25.300 And whatever you think of Jean Charest's position,

00:11:28.100 I have to say here,

00:11:29.100 for him to own that,

00:11:30.760 for him to come out and say,

00:11:32.520 this is what I think,

00:11:33.520 this is what I believe,

00:11:34.560 I don't care what any of you in the room believe,

00:11:36.340 I'm sticking to my guns here,

00:11:37.980 I have to give him respect for that.

00:11:40.500 And it was interesting

00:11:41.640 because one thing that I thought of in that,

00:11:43.160 well, if you think it's so bad

00:11:46.420 for someone to support the convoy,

00:11:48.320 if you think it's such a disqualifying thing,

00:11:51.600 could you even vote for a candidate?

00:11:53.600 Could you vote for this Conservative Party

00:11:55.700 that you say is your home party?

00:11:57.020 Could you vote for the Conservatives

00:11:58.260 if it meant casting a ballot

00:12:00.060 for someone who was supportive of the convoy?

00:12:02.640 This was the question I asked.

00:12:04.300 Good evening, Andrew Lawton, True North.

00:12:06.200 You've said that the convoy is an illegal blockade.

00:12:09.300 Obviously, you've been very open about your position

00:12:12.420 and you've distanced yourself from other candidates.

00:12:15.620 Could you in good conscience vote for a candidate

00:12:18.100 in your local riding that supported the convoy,

00:12:20.540 given the comments you've made

00:12:21.580 about how Mr. Polyev's support for the Freedom Convoy

00:12:24.400 is, in your words, disqualifying?

00:12:26.640 And Andrew, I'm glad you asked the question

00:12:28.880 because this whole story has parts to it.

00:12:32.800 First part is,

00:12:33.940 people do have a right to protest.

00:12:35.460 There should be no doubt in anyone's mind about that.

00:12:39.360 Peaceful protest is part of democracy.

00:12:42.080 And if someone knows about that

00:12:43.660 because I've been on the other side of it in my lifetime,

00:12:46.180 it's me.

00:12:47.060 And I've never, ever questioned that.

00:12:49.060 So that's the first part.

00:12:50.440 Second part,

00:12:51.500 you know, the whole mess was very much on Mr. Trudeau.

00:12:55.720 I mean, how come this happened?

00:12:57.500 I mean, and by the way,

00:12:58.360 when you return to that whole story,

00:13:00.260 it's just, I mean, it was incredible.

00:13:01.820 How could the situation degenerate the way it did?

00:13:06.600 Now, that being said,

00:13:08.180 that is not an excuse for those who go out there

00:13:10.500 and support an illegal blockade.

00:13:14.300 And when I'm saying that,

00:13:15.460 I'm not trying to,

00:13:16.600 I am not at all criticizing truckers

00:13:19.660 and people who have their legitimate jobs

00:13:21.500 to who we owe a lot

00:13:22.500 because during this whole COVID period,

00:13:24.840 they stepped up and they did their job.

00:13:27.200 And they deserve nothing less

00:13:28.760 than our very deep respect and gratitude.

00:13:32.100 But illegal blockades at borders

00:13:34.560 or anywhere else,

00:13:36.360 especially borders,

00:13:37.380 we lost hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:13:39.840 Folks in the automotive industry

00:13:41.220 questioned whether they should be investing in Canada.

00:13:43.780 The American president

00:13:44.740 would have to call up Mr. Trudeau

00:13:46.100 to ask him whether he needed an American intervention

00:13:48.120 to clean up a blockade in Canada.

00:13:50.080 That's embarrassing for us.

00:13:52.660 My point is simple.

00:13:53.940 If you have the privilege

00:13:55.660 of being a member of parliament,

00:13:57.880 you make laws, you change laws,

00:13:59.400 you can't treat the laws of the land

00:14:01.400 like a buffet table

00:14:02.420 from which you choose what's popular.

00:14:04.880 What's popular or non-popular.

00:14:06.780 And sometimes you have to resist

00:14:08.800 that's leadership,

00:14:09.740 what may be popular in the instant

00:14:11.340 for what is a more fundamental principle.

00:14:14.060 So I'm sorry if I went on longer

00:14:15.440 than I usually do,

00:14:16.360 and I certainly did in this debate,

00:14:17.700 but I was allowed time to do that.

00:14:20.420 Thank you, Andrew.

00:14:21.340 Could you yes or no vote for someone?

00:14:23.820 What, the blockade?

00:14:25.360 Well, it's a hypothetical question.

00:14:27.160 I mean, we'll get to,

00:14:29.080 after I become leader,

00:14:30.200 there'll be plenty of time to debate these things.

00:14:32.420 Thank you, Andrew.

00:14:33.440 It was kind of faint there

00:14:34.640 because I didn't have,

00:14:35.400 they took away my microphone,

00:14:36.600 but the point of the ask

00:14:37.380 is I was saying yes or no,

00:14:38.360 could you vote for someone?

00:14:39.280 And then that was when he said

00:14:40.560 he wouldn't engage in a hypothetical.

00:14:42.240 But again, answers it very clearly,

00:14:44.300 very directly,

00:14:44.860 says what he believes.

00:14:46.760 And it's up to the members

00:14:47.820 to then decide whether they agree

00:14:49.600 with those beliefs

00:14:50.300 or want to reward these beliefs.

00:14:52.460 But that's the importance of this process.

00:14:55.400 And I know I talked about it last week,

00:14:56.880 but it is interesting

00:14:57.740 how convoy support,

00:14:59.560 who supported the convoy first,

00:15:01.100 who supported it better,

00:15:02.040 has become such a litmus test in this race.

00:15:04.860 Oftentimes, Roman and Leslin and Pierre

00:15:07.080 are all talking about their support

00:15:08.900 and opposition of mandates,

00:15:10.320 the truckers and all of that.

00:15:11.700 And this has become so critical.

00:15:13.440 Now, Patrick Brown's campaign

00:15:14.940 sent out an email this morning,

00:15:18.080 which I have to share.

00:15:19.220 I won't read the whole thing.

00:15:20.460 And incidentally, I should say,

00:15:22.300 it's not even clear when you're reading it

00:15:24.260 that it is from Patrick Brown's campaign.

00:15:26.720 It doesn't mention anywhere in it

00:15:28.420 Patrick Brown's name.

00:15:29.900 It's from a woman who identifies herself

00:15:31.800 as Dionne Duncan,

00:15:34.020 who identifies as a Conservative Party member

00:15:37.040 and a minority woman

00:15:38.100 in the greater Toronto area.

00:15:40.080 And she says,

00:15:40.760 over the weekend,

00:15:41.660 10 people were murdered

00:15:42.740 in a hate-motivated terrorist attack

00:15:44.500 in Buffalo, New York.

00:15:45.800 The murderer was motivated

00:15:47.200 by white replacement theory, 0.71

00:15:49.800 a racist white nationalist conspiracy theory.

00:15:52.580 You might want to think 0.60

00:15:53.520 that type of thinking

00:15:54.260 doesn't exist here in Canada,

00:15:55.440 but if you think that,

00:15:56.340 you are wrong. 0.79

00:15:57.600 Yesterday,

00:15:58.620 after the Buffalo Shooters manifesto

00:16:00.800 was reported,

00:16:01.540 a video of convoy leader,

00:16:03.100 Pat King,

00:16:03.820 spreading and justifying

00:16:04.940 this vile,

00:16:06.020 hateful conspiracy theory

00:16:07.100 went viral.

00:16:07.700 I need you to feel

00:16:08.980 what I felt when I saw this,

00:16:10.820 fear.

00:16:12.140 She goes on about hate in Canada

00:16:13.920 and how it has no place

00:16:15.060 and then says this,

00:16:17.240 Pierre Polyev was asked

00:16:18.800 to condemn

00:16:19.680 so-called white replacement theory

00:16:21.960 and anyone who believes it.

00:16:23.660 It should have been easy for Pierre.

00:16:25.140 A simple tweet would have worked,

00:16:26.560 but he hasn't done it.

00:16:28.280 A candidate who claims

00:16:29.320 he wants to be Prime Minister of Canada

00:16:30.880 will not condemn hate.

00:16:33.020 She says we need to refuse

00:16:34.300 those who play footsie with hate.

00:16:35.960 She says that Pierre's silence

00:16:37.820 is deafening.

00:16:39.040 She says he won't vote

00:16:40.040 to recognize Islamophobia.

00:16:41.900 He won't condemn Pat King.

00:16:43.860 And she says,

00:16:44.640 what does it say about Pierre

00:16:46.020 that he wants to win your vote

00:16:48.260 by making life less safe

00:16:50.060 and less equal

00:16:50.960 for minority women?

00:16:52.980 She says for me.

00:16:54.820 And they're basically saying,

00:16:57.180 the campaign,

00:16:57.900 the Patrick Brown campaign,

00:16:58.900 saying in this email,

00:16:59.680 and you can read the whole thing,

00:17:00.920 that they are putting

00:17:03.020 at Pierre Polyev's feet,

00:17:05.540 Pat King,

00:17:06.300 racism,

00:17:06.980 hatred, 0.98

00:17:07.480 white supremacy, 0.99

00:17:08.280 the Buffalo shooting. 0.65

00:17:09.640 They're saying that he's 0.99

00:17:10.620 a white supremacist hate figure 0.99

00:17:12.200 or he's playing footsie 1.00

00:17:14.200 with white supremacists

00:17:15.660 because he didn't tweet

00:17:16.880 in response to Patrick Brown

00:17:18.820 a condemnation of this attack.

00:17:21.200 Now,

00:17:21.420 I haven't followed this.

00:17:22.760 I don't believe for a second

00:17:24.240 that Pierre Polyev is pro-attack,

00:17:27.860 that he's in support

00:17:29.060 of what happened in Buffalo.

00:17:30.260 What I believe is that

00:17:31.700 when he's asked to condemn

00:17:33.640 by Patrick Brown,

00:17:35.220 it's because Patrick Brown 1.00

00:17:36.320 is trying to suck him 1.00

00:17:37.040 into this whatever, 0.97

00:17:38.640 this pissing match on Twitter,

00:17:40.060 which obviously he's not

00:17:41.260 going to get in on

00:17:41.880 with Patrick Brown.

00:17:42.920 But the whole thing 0.96

00:17:43.760 is ridiculous. 0.91

00:17:45.080 And for all that Jean Charest 0.99

00:17:46.320 and that side

00:17:47.700 that tends to be

00:17:48.340 against Pierre Polyev

00:17:49.320 is saying that,

00:17:50.600 oh, well,

00:17:51.580 Pierre's tone is unbecoming

00:17:52.860 of the Conservative Party.

00:17:54.420 Well,

00:17:54.540 now you have literally

00:17:55.840 Pierre being dragged

00:17:57.660 into this

00:17:58.300 and being maligned

00:17:59.300 as a white supremacist sympathizer

00:18:01.460 or as someone

00:18:02.700 who's at least adjacent

00:18:04.180 to white supremacy.

00:18:05.300 And no one's concerned

00:18:06.380 about that tone,

00:18:07.480 about how the Conservative Party,

00:18:09.020 whatever happens

00:18:09.960 in this leadership race,

00:18:11.100 moves beyond that.

00:18:12.800 Seriously.

00:18:14.300 She says he's silent on hate

00:18:16.080 and the election

00:18:16.720 will already be lost

00:18:17.820 and it probably should be.

00:18:19.080 So they're saying

00:18:19.980 if Pierre wins,

00:18:20.920 the Conservative Party 1.00

00:18:21.820 is a hateful white supremacist racket 1.00

00:18:24.480 that doesn't deserve to exist. 1.00

00:18:26.340 Doesn't deserve to win.

00:18:28.100 Okay.

00:18:29.080 That is what we call

00:18:30.000 going nuclear.

00:18:31.120 That is going scorched earth on it.

00:18:33.060 And again,

00:18:33.560 Patrick Brown,

00:18:34.200 not the front runner

00:18:34.960 in the race.

00:18:35.800 Pierre Polyev is among them.

00:18:37.900 Pierre and Jean Charest as well.

00:18:40.000 So if this is what he thinks

00:18:41.740 is going to be the strategy

00:18:42.660 to get him across the finish line,

00:18:44.060 then go for it.

00:18:45.300 But this is absolutely not

00:18:47.220 an issue

00:18:48.780 that is going to resonate

00:18:50.760 with people,

00:18:51.320 I don't think.

00:18:53.020 And it's playing the left's game.

00:18:55.820 And I don't have a dog

00:18:57.020 in this fight, by the way.

00:18:57.800 I'm not supporting

00:18:58.440 any leadership candidate.

00:18:59.980 I've extended invitations

00:19:01.020 to them all.

00:19:02.000 I will criticize them

00:19:02.940 and support them

00:19:03.520 as I've been doing

00:19:04.220 even in this show

00:19:05.000 based on the merits

00:19:06.300 of what they say

00:19:07.100 and how they say it.

00:19:09.540 I've been critical

00:19:10.320 to Patrick Brown

00:19:11.020 for not coming on this show,

00:19:12.280 for not attending

00:19:12.900 the Canada Strong

00:19:14.040 and Free debate.

00:19:15.080 I've had a lot of

00:19:16.020 kind things to say

00:19:16.880 about Jean Charest

00:19:17.560 who I disagree with on a lot

00:19:18.900 and Scott Aitchison

00:19:19.920 because of how forthright

00:19:21.060 they are.

00:19:21.540 So when Patrick Brown

00:19:24.080 comes out with this

00:19:24.820 and I look at this

00:19:25.440 and I'm saying

00:19:25.800 you're just playing

00:19:26.460 the left's game.

00:19:27.120 You're doing the left's work

00:19:28.020 for them.

00:19:29.080 Because now

00:19:29.740 when the election

00:19:30.700 comes around

00:19:31.240 if Pierre Polyev

00:19:32.060 is the leader

00:19:32.540 CBC will say

00:19:33.380 even Patrick Brown

00:19:35.100 said no one

00:19:35.920 should vote conservative

00:19:36.760 because well

00:19:37.740 if Pierre wins

00:19:38.400 they're just a racist 1.00

00:19:39.480 white supremacist party. 1.00

00:19:41.280 They're doing

00:19:42.160 the left's work

00:19:43.420 for them

00:19:44.040 and they don't even

00:19:44.840 seem to care.

00:19:45.980 Just before we go here

00:19:47.160 I had the chance

00:19:47.900 to at the Canada

00:19:48.940 Strong and Free

00:19:49.560 Networking Conference

00:19:50.460 sit down with

00:19:51.580 Scott Aitchison.

00:19:52.620 This was the day

00:19:53.540 after the debate.

00:19:54.880 It was great.

00:19:55.340 I got to see

00:19:56.060 Lesley Lewis

00:19:56.920 and Roman Babber

00:19:57.640 as I shared my chats

00:19:58.580 with them in the

00:19:59.000 previous show

00:19:59.520 and also Scott.

00:20:01.000 Now Scott I should say

00:20:01.960 not a front runner

00:20:03.340 in terms of name

00:20:04.140 recognition

00:20:04.600 but has run a really

00:20:06.160 policy heavy campaign

00:20:07.880 that's touching on

00:20:09.200 a lot of things

00:20:09.820 like ending supply

00:20:10.900 management

00:20:11.320 which I just so

00:20:12.220 desperately wish

00:20:13.040 other people would

00:20:13.740 take up.

00:20:14.560 I know it's like

00:20:14.940 a strange hill to die on

00:20:16.040 but believe me

00:20:16.600 it's important.

00:20:17.540 All of these free market

00:20:18.520 people that were just

00:20:19.460 twisting themselves

00:20:20.280 into pretzels

00:20:21.000 in Edmonton

00:20:21.980 to say well

00:20:22.820 maybe we don't need

00:20:23.820 a free market

00:20:24.300 when we're talking

00:20:24.780 about dairy and poultry

00:20:25.720 but everything else

00:20:26.620 free market

00:20:27.200 but also on foreign

00:20:28.860 policy which we touched

00:20:29.860 on a little bit

00:20:30.480 in this chat.

00:20:31.260 So this is my interview

00:20:32.380 recorded in Ottawa

00:20:33.740 with Scott Aitchison.

00:20:35.540 Joining me now is

00:20:36.480 Conservative leadership

00:20:37.400 candidate Scott Aitchison.

00:20:38.800 Scott good to talk

00:20:39.460 to you again

00:20:39.760 in person this time.

00:20:41.080 Great to be here

00:20:41.640 yeah thank you.

00:20:42.620 So let's start

00:20:43.440 with the debate

00:20:43.820 last night.

00:20:44.400 This was the first

00:20:45.100 official opportunity

00:20:46.260 that all of the

00:20:46.980 well almost all

00:20:47.740 of the candidates

00:20:48.360 were on stage

00:20:50.020 together in this

00:20:50.800 leadership race.

00:20:51.720 I know there's a lot

00:20:52.240 of prep that goes

00:20:52.860 into it but looking

00:20:54.060 back now with a day's

00:20:55.400 hindsight what was

00:20:56.100 your feeling about it?

00:20:57.880 Well I spoke about

00:20:59.200 last night actually

00:21:00.000 that there's a lot

00:21:00.480 of division and a lot

00:21:01.280 of rancor and sort

00:21:02.440 of you know visceral

00:21:04.320 partisan rhetoric

00:21:05.300 back and forth

00:21:06.040 and the tax and I

00:21:07.120 think that that's

00:21:07.800 actually bad for our

00:21:08.760 party.

00:21:09.180 It's bad for our

00:21:09.960 politics and I tried

00:21:11.700 to lead by example

00:21:12.920 by being respectful

00:21:13.940 and I think we need

00:21:15.500 to talk about ideas

00:21:16.220 and not each other.

00:21:17.480 Now I mean your

00:21:18.120 approach and we heard

00:21:19.440 this in your opening

00:21:20.040 statement was and I'm

00:21:21.500 crudely paraphrasing it

00:21:22.780 but it was can't we

00:21:23.420 all get along.

00:21:24.120 I mean you were really

00:21:24.640 pitching unity and is

00:21:26.480 that enough of a

00:21:27.280 message?

00:21:28.960 Well not certainly

00:21:30.020 not for the whole race

00:21:30.880 I mean I'm obviously

00:21:32.020 talking about policy

00:21:33.220 ideas as well.

00:21:34.480 Last night of course

00:21:35.260 we were responding to

00:21:36.180 questions but the

00:21:36.860 questions you know

00:21:38.360 seem to lead to every

00:21:39.760 other candidate talking

00:21:40.880 about each other which

00:21:42.420 was my point that you

00:21:43.580 know we got to stop

00:21:44.540 attacking each other

00:21:45.340 start talking about

00:21:46.180 ideas and you know

00:21:47.780 present those to

00:21:48.560 Canadians in a way

00:21:49.300 that they can trust us

00:21:50.760 to lead and govern.

00:21:51.940 I know historically in

00:21:52.860 leadership races or at

00:21:53.900 the local level

00:21:54.460 nomination races you

00:21:55.680 you get these sometimes

00:21:57.060 bare knuckle brawls but

00:21:58.240 they're always done

00:21:58.820 respectfully and at the

00:21:59.640 end of it everyone

00:22:00.220 shakes hands and work

00:22:01.360 together.

00:22:02.480 Is your concern that

00:22:03.820 that can't happen or

00:22:05.000 won't happen after this

00:22:06.020 race?

00:22:06.460 No it can happen but we

00:22:08.500 have to choose to make

00:22:09.260 it happen.

00:22:10.200 I used to say this all

00:22:10.900 the time when I was

00:22:11.560 mayor of Huntsville.

00:22:12.260 I led a council that

00:22:13.500 was engaged and you

00:22:14.600 know we would have

00:22:15.220 some knock down drag

00:22:16.660 them out battles over

00:22:17.560 issues and in the

00:22:18.640 council chamber but we

00:22:19.600 always would leave and

00:22:21.680 and we'd be friends.

00:22:23.020 I would argue you know

00:22:23.600 you can disagree without

00:22:24.580 being disagreeable but

00:22:25.960 often go for a pint

00:22:26.780 after the council

00:22:27.500 meeting just to say you

00:22:28.460 know what we can be on

00:22:29.920 different sides of an

00:22:30.540 issue but at the end of

00:22:31.260 the day we're all here

00:22:32.060 to move Huntsville

00:22:33.020 forward and that's the

00:22:34.320 same thing here we are

00:22:35.920 all here every single

00:22:37.300 candidate up there last

00:22:38.320 night you know they're

00:22:39.860 not taking time away from

00:22:41.060 their families and their

00:22:41.980 lives to do this for the

00:22:43.840 you know just the good

00:22:44.720 of their health or for

00:22:45.500 their entertainment value

00:22:46.260 they're here because they

00:22:47.060 really truly believe what

00:22:48.020 they're doing they want to

00:22:48.680 make our party better they

00:22:49.520 want to make our country

00:22:50.220 better so we need to stop

00:22:52.440 attacking each other and

00:22:54.060 focus on ideas and that

00:22:56.300 moves our party forward

00:22:57.200 it actually helps us expand

00:22:59.040 the tent and it helps us

00:23:00.480 build trust with you know

00:23:01.780 Canadians in those places

00:23:02.840 where we haven't been

00:23:03.920 winning and we need to

00:23:04.980 win.

00:23:05.660 What are the ideas that you

00:23:06.940 feel need to be front and

00:23:08.400 center in the race that

00:23:09.180 aren't?

00:23:10.300 Well I think we need to be

00:23:11.220 talking a little bit more

00:23:11.900 about our foreign policy

00:23:13.000 under the last seven years

00:23:15.120 of the Trudeau government I

00:23:16.300 think Canada we're a bit of

00:23:17.840 an embarrassment on the

00:23:18.520 world stage we're not a

00:23:20.120 reliable partner and we

00:23:21.560 need to be spending two

00:23:22.280 percent of our GDP on on our

00:23:24.620 defense system I mean NATO

00:23:26.100 we haven't lived up to our

00:23:27.460 commitments in NATO almost

00:23:29.460 since the inception of the

00:23:30.260 organization and our allies

00:23:32.300 are forming new

00:23:32.960 partnerships and new

00:23:34.020 alliances without us because

00:23:35.400 we're just not showing up

00:23:36.840 and so we obviously need to

00:23:39.060 spend more on defense and

00:23:40.500 we need to have a more

00:23:41.080 principled stand on you

00:23:43.060 know issues like Huawei for

00:23:44.800 example we need to ban

00:23:46.260 Huawei we've got to stop

00:23:47.560 dithering on these things

00:23:48.540 we need you know we've got

00:23:49.440 to stand up to you know

00:23:51.400 countries like China and

00:23:53.360 their communist regime and

00:23:54.720 their bullying and it's a

00:23:56.360 security threat we've got to

00:23:57.200 stop dithering on these

00:23:58.020 issues we've got to and so

00:23:59.300 these are issues that I

00:24:00.260 think conservatives can lead

00:24:02.940 on and should be leading

00:24:03.820 on we should be talking

00:24:04.960 about them Canadians want to

00:24:06.080 hear about these issues but

00:24:07.280 when we're just busy

00:24:08.220 attacking each other we're 0.63

00:24:09.580 not talking about those

00:24:10.140 ideas and those are the

00:24:10.800 things we need to be

00:24:11.220 discussing so just on the

00:24:12.400 on the defense funding

00:24:13.940 there and NATO spending do

00:24:15.900 I take from that that an

00:24:16.760 NHSN budget brings defense

00:24:18.020 up to two percent of

00:24:18.860 Canada's GDP absolutely

00:24:20.220 and when you talk about

00:24:21.500 Canadian leadership I mean

00:24:22.740 Canada failed to secure a

00:24:24.480 seat on the United Nations

00:24:25.300 Security Council after

00:24:26.980 relentless lobbying and

00:24:28.620 campaigning by the Prime

00:24:29.960 Minister on that I know

00:24:31.400 there was a story in

00:24:32.380 Bloomberg some time ago

00:24:33.380 about how the Prime Minister

00:24:34.400 was trying to be the one

00:24:35.900 to broker the EU Northern

00:24:37.700 Ireland deal and again no

00:24:39.520 one was taking the call no

00:24:40.660 one wanted Canada to play a

00:24:41.720 role the Foreign Minister

00:24:43.220 Melanie Jolie has talked

00:24:44.260 about how our place is

00:24:45.140 convening but no one seems

00:24:46.540 to want to sit at the table

00:24:47.440 so how do you restore

00:24:49.420 Canada's legitimacy on the

00:24:50.700 foreign stage when people

00:24:52.320 have tried it I mean that

00:24:53.020 was Justin Trudeau's big

00:24:53.960 pitch Canada's back how do

00:24:55.280 you do that though yeah but

00:24:56.720 Justin didn't really try it

00:24:59.260 at all he thought he could

00:25:00.360 just charm the world with his

00:25:01.640 name and what you know and

00:25:03.320 that would somehow do

00:25:04.160 something we have to be a

00:25:05.720 reliable partner I mean we

00:25:07.660 need to live up to our

00:25:08.660 commitments in NATO we need

00:25:09.680 to live up to our

00:25:10.240 commitments in on foreign

00:25:11.540 aid these are these are you

00:25:13.300 know countries that are

00:25:14.420 going to rely on Canada and 0.90

00:25:15.420 if they can't rely on

00:25:16.280 Canada no matter how much

00:25:18.980 charm offensive Justin

00:25:20.300 Trudeau does around the

00:25:21.060 world they're not going to

00:25:21.600 care and so principled

00:25:23.880 leadership and building the

00:25:25.420 relationships that we need

00:25:26.520 to build around the world

00:25:27.500 Prime Minister Mulroney was a

00:25:29.040 master at it he he built

00:25:30.760 relationships with world

00:25:31.920 leaders all over the globe

00:25:33.720 and Canada had a really

00:25:35.100 valuable presence and a voice

00:25:36.920 in the world when he was

00:25:37.680 Prime Minister because of the

00:25:38.700 power of his personal

00:25:39.420 relationships you know I we

00:25:42.720 gotta we gotta we gotta back

00:25:43.980 up what we say with real

00:25:45.560 dollars real investment we

00:25:46.620 gotta stop playing games with

00:25:47.700 procurement for our military

00:25:48.960 the whole procurement for

00:25:51.300 fighter jets has been a joke

00:25:53.400 it's been an embarrassment you

00:25:55.320 know the process to try to get

00:25:56.920 the shipbuilding strategy up

00:25:57.940 and going thankfully Prime

00:25:59.380 Minister Harper started that

00:26:00.580 program and now it's going we

00:26:01.780 need to maintain that now I

00:26:05.200 I tell people you know it's

00:26:06.820 not rocket science actually

00:26:07.960 well in some cases maybe it is

00:26:08.980 rocket science but this is

00:26:10.600 really no different than a

00:26:11.680 municipal mayor putting

00:26:13.660 together a procurement plan for

00:26:16.000 a fire truck you know I don't

00:26:17.140 argue with the fire chief on how

00:26:18.100 many pumps that truck needs he

00:26:19.320 tells me what we need to serve

00:26:20.560 the needs of our community tells

00:26:21.920 me it's gonna cost us much money

00:26:23.000 and I need it by this day so we

00:26:24.480 put money away prepare for it get

00:26:27.100 ready and have a we have a whole

00:26:28.440 plan to replace that vehicle when

00:26:29.820 the time comes it's a capital

00:26:31.800 asset management plan let's take

00:26:33.600 the politics out of it and just get

00:26:34.620 it done you mentioned China

00:26:36.060 earlier what would you take as your

00:26:38.100 position on Taiwan which has been a

00:26:40.320 lot of cases a very sticking point

00:26:41.700 where no one in the world I should say

00:26:43.740 few people in the world are prepared

00:26:44.940 to really deal with this head-on well

00:26:47.760 I think it's time for us to be honest I

00:26:49.080 mean the one China policy is it's not

00:26:52.760 really true it's not it's not

00:26:54.560 happening Taiwan is a vibrant

00:26:57.320 democratic country it's a you know

00:27:00.080 it's a market country capitalist

00:27:01.940 country and we need to we need to

00:27:04.940 recognize Taiwan for the for the the

00:27:07.400 beacon of freedom that it is and and I

00:27:10.200 think it's time for us to recognize

00:27:11.420 them I you know Taiwan has said they

00:27:13.680 would like to be members of the World

00:27:15.640 Health Organization I think we need to

00:27:18.140 recognize that it's time for us to

00:27:19.380 stop sort of dancing around at that's

00:27:22.860 another way that we Canada can have a

00:27:24.120 principled stance in the world we if

00:27:25.620 we're going to be champions of

00:27:27.000 freedom then let's stand up for those

00:27:28.560 countries that are crying out for their

00:27:30.180 own freedom now would that basically be

00:27:32.520 recognizing Taiwan as an independent

00:27:34.260 sovereign state yes absolutely is that a

00:27:38.100 position that would be disqualifying to

00:27:41.140 a large section of voters I mean we saw in

00:27:42.960 the last election how there were concerns

00:27:46.260 by some of your former colleagues that

00:27:48.180 Chinese influence campaigns were being

00:27:50.100 run against people for their positions

00:27:51.540 I don't think that leaders take

00:27:54.260 positions based on the politics of it

00:27:56.880 leaders do what's right even when it's

00:27:58.740 hard another foreign policy question

00:28:01.020 would you relocate Canada's embassy in

00:28:03.060 Israel to Jerusalem absolutely Israel is 0.96

00:28:05.880 a most vibrant democracy it's that it's

00:28:08.520 the only democracy in the Middle East it's

00:28:10.860 a vibrant multicultural nation they are

00:28:13.360 an important ally of Canada's Jerusalem is

00:28:15.820 the capital and absolutely our our

00:28:18.040 embassy should be there I know the

00:28:19.720 interim leader Candace Bergen in her

00:28:21.280 video remarks this morning mentioned

00:28:22.840 that a flat tax is a policy that would

00:28:26.440 be a legitimate viable conservative

00:28:28.420 policy and I don't want to write your

00:28:29.860 platform for you but have you given any

00:28:32.020 thought to some of these larger

00:28:33.760 structural issues that deal in in the

00:28:36.400 tax system yeah we'll have a lot more

00:28:38.740 to say about tax in the coming days

00:28:40.300 obviously what I have talked about so

00:28:42.200 far is eliminating the carbon tax

00:28:44.320 fundamentally this comes down to

00:28:46.120 affordability for Canadians that's that's

00:28:47.740 I think the most important issue we

00:28:49.180 need to address and if there are

00:28:50.860 changes we can make to our tax system to

00:28:52.420 help make life more affordable for

00:28:53.920 Canadians we need to seriously look at 1.00

00:28:55.420 that I find that I mean in the past this

00:28:57.500 was something that the conservative

00:28:59.500 government under Stephen Harper did with a

00:29:00.820 lot of the boutique tax credits which

00:29:02.260 certainly make for good politics but at

00:29:04.240 the end I don't feel they simplify the tax

00:29:06.700 system for large sections of Canadians is

00:29:08.920 that something that you'd like to see a tax

00:29:11.300 system that's a lot simpler yeah simpler

00:29:13.580 but what we really do need to do a

00:29:15.560 proper review of it right this is you

00:29:18.440 don't make tax policy I think on the fly I

00:29:20.840 think some thorough analysis and some

00:29:22.760 you know some real work going into it and

00:29:25.100 some thoughtful discussion about it is

00:29:26.520 important so I guess one thing I'd ask

00:29:28.520 you just while you're here looking

00:29:29.960 around at this conference we haven't had

00:29:31.460 one in the last two years because of

00:29:33.560 COVID what's your assessment of the

00:29:35.120 state of the conservative movement right

00:29:36.440 now well I think there's there's some

00:29:38.480 fault lines but I think that's one of the

00:29:40.240 reasons why it's important for us to

00:29:41.560 talk about coming together I said over

00:29:43.600 and over again that unity isn't

00:29:44.920 uniformity we don't all have to agree

00:29:46.300 not to all believe the same thing we

00:29:48.880 have to listen to each other respect

00:29:50.320 each other I think conservatives the

00:29:53.200 movement is other they're craving that

00:29:55.000 conversation I was chatting with the

00:29:57.880 organizers yesterday and and that they

00:29:59.860 they didn't just sell out they

00:30:01.120 oversold it's great it's great to see as

00:30:03.680 many people here as there are they

00:30:06.100 they want to have that conversation I

00:30:07.660 think that those of us running in the

00:30:09.700 leadership race should respect that and

00:30:11.360 have a conversation instead of attacking

00:30:12.700 each other Scott Acheson thank you my

00:30:14.440 pleasure thanks Scott Acheson at the

00:30:17.080 Canada strong and free networking

00:30:18.680 conference and I should put in another

00:30:20.640 plug on May 30th the Independent Press

00:30:22.780 Gallery of Canada is hosting a

00:30:24.960 conservative leadership debate I'll be

00:30:26.440 moderating and we'll also have a panel

00:30:28.460 of journalists including Sheila Gunn-Reed

00:30:30.220 Derek Fildebrandt and Rupa Subramanya

00:30:32.740 asking questions of the candidate that we

00:30:35.160 hope will be of interest to those of you

00:30:37.460 tuning in and in general supporters of

00:30:39.560 independent media and we're doing it on

00:30:41.800 May 30th because it's before the

00:30:43.700 membership cutoff so people that aren't

00:30:45.340 Conservative Party of Canada members can

00:30:47.300 hear what they candidates have to say and

00:30:49.540 decide if they want to join and

00:30:51.200 participate in the process a bit further

00:30:53.460 or just again just watch for the sake of

00:30:55.320 watching which I think is also important

00:30:57.140 to do even if you don't plan on voting

00:30:58.880 for the people so that's coming up May 30th

00:31:00.980 if you want to you can go get tickets to see

00:31:02.920 it in person it's going to be in the

00:31:04.920 Toronto area and you'll be able to watch

00:31:07.100 it online if not but that's at

00:31:08.860 independentpressgallery.ca and with that

00:31:11.980 I have to bid you adieu but we have some

00:31:13.960 big announcements coming up for something

00:31:15.280 I'm working on for later this week so

00:31:17.420 we'll talk about that on the next show

00:31:18.840 and I hope you have a wonderful wonderful

00:31:21.260 rest of the week otherwise this is

00:31:23.020 Canada's most irreverent talk show

00:31:24.880 the Andrew Lawton show on True North

00:31:26.760 thank you God bless and good day to you

00:31:28.640 all thanks for listening to the Andrew

00:31:30.180 Lawton show support the program by

00:31:32.240 donating to True North at www.tnc.news

Juno News - May 17, 2022

Patrick Brown goes nuclear

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