Juno News - March 02, 2021


Podcaster cancelled for flashing an ＂OK＂ sign fights back


Episode Stats

Length

21 minutes

Words per Minute

185.13376

Word Count

4,000

Sentence Count

233

Hate Speech Sentences

6


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:07.000 Happen to be in British Columbia right now, beautiful BC.
00:00:10.680 And given that I haven't seen another human being that I'm not married to for, you know, the last year,
00:00:15.220 I thought it would be a good opportunity to chat with a guest I was going to have on the show anyway this week.
00:00:19.760 But it just so happens we are in the same general vicinity.
00:00:23.540 And that is Angelo Isidoro, who you may know as the host of Cancel This,
00:00:27.560 a very popular podcast on the post-millennial,
00:00:30.760 but who ironically went through the cancel mob himself in recent weeks.
00:00:36.180 And I'm very glad is willing to speak up about it.
00:00:38.840 Now, this is particularly interesting because he has perspective at seeing this both as a cancelee,
00:00:45.140 but also as a journalist.
00:00:47.060 So we'll talk about this with Angelo Isidoro here on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:51.620 Angelo, good to talk to you. Thanks for joining me today.
00:00:53.800 Thank you for having me.
00:00:54.980 I want to talk about this from a couple of different perspectives, Angelo,
00:00:58.720 because you went through something that you've covered a great many times in other people.
00:01:04.720 And in a lot of ways, I think that makes your story more sympathetic,
00:01:08.440 because a lot of the times people who themselves have been part of cancel mobs will get canceled.
00:01:14.260 And it's very difficult for people to find sympathy for them.
00:01:17.260 Whereas you've understood before going through what you went through that this was a problem for quite a while.
00:01:22.620 Yeah, and it's helped me be more analytical of it, because it is a bizarre situation where,
00:01:27.980 I mean, for the past four years, I've been hosting speakers like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro,
00:01:32.720 and now I'm doing this podcast.
00:01:34.300 And even my writing is all situated around cancel culture.
00:01:37.820 So it's very bizarre to have it happen to you, right?
00:01:41.320 It's strange, but it gave me a perspective that is very nuanced,
00:01:46.740 where I, as a journalist and as a writer, as someone who looks at this stuff,
00:01:51.840 can analyze it from a perspective of, this is how this animal works.
00:01:55.480 This is how the mob works.
00:01:56.600 This is what they do first.
00:01:57.980 This is why they use that word.
00:01:59.440 This is how it happens, and this is how they ruin your life.
00:02:01.700 I have to say that reporting on it and speaking to people is very different from having it happen to you.
00:02:07.820 It's obviously completely different, and that's sort of what frazzled me the most,
00:02:11.640 was although I've realized and I've known that the cancel mob is malevolent,
00:02:17.440 having it actually happen to you is a whole other story.
00:02:20.320 It's kind of horrifying.
00:02:22.900 Let's talk about what happened, because in a lot of perspectives,
00:02:27.040 this may not have tripped a lot of people's radars nationwide.
00:02:30.540 This was a regional story to some extent, but for you, it becomes your whole world,
00:02:35.380 and we'll talk about that.
00:02:36.920 You have been involved, as you've just mentioned, in various forms of political activism.
00:02:41.760 You were sitting on the board of a municipal political party in Vancouver,
00:02:45.280 which is a phenomenon that people outside of Vancouver might not understand as much,
00:02:49.520 the Nonpartisan Association.
00:02:51.860 And there was a story that was presented as one about the NPA,
00:02:57.440 but ended up becoming about you in a lot of ways,
00:03:00.060 and a photograph of you making this gesture that I've always known in my life
00:03:05.060 as being about nothing but the word okay.
00:03:08.300 And, I mean, I'm going to get canceled for doing that in the show.
00:03:11.040 Yeah, I was about to say that I have nothing to do with this guy.
00:03:15.040 We will blur it out.
00:03:15.940 We will blur it out in the final.
00:03:17.180 But you did that.
00:03:18.060 You were wearing a Make America Great Again hat,
00:03:20.860 and this was presented as evidence that this organization you were with had gone far right.
00:03:26.700 Does that sum up, at the very surface level, the story?
00:03:30.440 Yeah, it does.
00:03:31.160 It's a strange story because it is dressed in a hyper-localized issue,
00:03:35.700 which is the Nonpartisan Association.
00:03:37.300 Out of everything I do, a volunteer position that is completely innocuous,
00:03:42.720 I mean, I'm interested in housing.
00:03:44.500 That's why I got involved in it.
00:03:46.080 They use that as a vehicle to cancel me,
00:03:50.000 and I've since been essentially forced to resign from that position.
00:03:52.920 So, as you said, you know, this outlet took a picture of me four years ago
00:03:59.160 when I was, you know, a first-year university student,
00:04:01.920 and I was going to a protest happening in downtown Vancouver,
00:04:05.780 which was a Trump Tower was opening, and people were upset.
00:04:09.160 So me and other college kids thought it would be, you know, silly and dumb
00:04:14.400 to wear a Trump hat and go and mess with people.
00:04:18.580 And, of course, at that time in February of 2017,
00:04:22.800 that gesture, besides being known innocuously as okay,
00:04:26.760 was also a silly mimicry of Trump, right?
00:04:29.600 If you watch even SNL with Alec Baldwin playing Trump,
00:04:32.680 Trump has always had really bizarre hand gestures.
00:04:34.720 So that's what that was.
00:04:36.180 Later on, it turned into something else,
00:04:38.260 but they took that photo, sat on it for four years now,
00:04:43.140 and waited until, you know, this opportunity to release it
00:04:46.600 under the context of, well, the Christchurch shooter used the same gesture.
00:04:52.080 January 6th just happened, the insurrection in the States.
00:04:55.300 They wait for things to happen and then retroactively try to ruin your life.
00:04:58.740 So that's what they did there.
00:05:00.940 Again, they dressed it up as a municipal issue.
00:05:03.500 So even the mayor of Vancouver got involved
00:05:06.180 and released a statement under the city government.
00:05:08.980 Yeah.
00:05:09.100 So it turned into this big hyper-localized issue,
00:05:13.840 but it's a broader issue that relates to really one of the most egregious,
00:05:18.800 and obviously I'm biased, but an egregious case of cancel culture
00:05:22.540 because it's a total lie.
00:05:24.060 It's a total fabrication.
00:05:26.100 And that's, I'd say, at the crux of cancel culture,
00:05:29.380 is you take a two-dimensional caricature of someone,
00:05:33.240 which may or may not be true.
00:05:34.600 It either captures someone's worst moment
00:05:37.580 or it completely concocts a moment in an image,
00:05:40.820 and it tries to apply that to every other facet of their life.
00:05:45.180 And in your case, you actually have a body of work to speak of,
00:05:49.420 and I think that's why that's so difficult,
00:05:51.020 is that in the nearly four years since that photo,
00:05:53.900 you have put on record what you stand for, what you believe in.
00:05:57.720 And I've heard episodes that you've done.
00:05:59.940 I've had some exchanges with you.
00:06:02.220 It doesn't fit.
00:06:03.400 And if you were a blank slate
00:06:05.880 and they didn't have anything else to judge you on
00:06:08.240 but that photo, sure, maybe you could ask some questions.
00:06:10.480 But that, I think, is what I find the worst about this,
00:06:13.220 is that there's no understanding that people grow.
00:06:15.380 There's no understanding that, hey, this snapshot in time
00:06:18.440 might have represented something else.
00:06:20.520 Yeah, I think it's more difficult for them
00:06:22.800 because I've been so public in my life,
00:06:25.520 and a lot of that is intentional
00:06:26.820 because when you are in politics,
00:06:28.820 when you're writing about politics, you're just engaged,
00:06:30.700 it's very important that you don't do this PR-recommended thing
00:06:34.340 of just be silent, don't answer, don't do it.
00:06:37.080 Because at the end of the day, when you look at me,
00:06:39.340 whether you're listening to me or you look at my face,
00:06:41.320 I don't match what they're accusing me of.
00:06:45.320 Yeah, I don't look at you and see white supremacists.
00:06:48.560 Yeah, exactly.
00:06:49.460 And even if you listen to my content,
00:06:51.600 like, I'm a pretty moderate guy,
00:06:53.660 so they intentionally ignore that
00:06:55.820 to such a degree where, you know,
00:06:57.920 when these outlets want to defame you,
00:07:00.880 they're not acting in good faith.
00:07:03.040 So whether you issue a statement or not,
00:07:04.980 it doesn't really make a difference.
00:07:06.620 You know, to one of the outlets,
00:07:08.040 I issued a statement,
00:07:09.120 I provided links explaining that
00:07:10.740 this was essentially a hoax
00:07:12.980 that was co-opted later and this, et cetera,
00:07:16.200 and they intentionally ignore it
00:07:17.500 because it doesn't fit their narrative.
00:07:18.980 Because if that gesture doesn't mean anything,
00:07:21.700 what's the story?
00:07:23.180 How do we destroy this person's life, right?
00:07:26.240 They have to build you up into a villain.
00:07:29.220 And unfortunately, there are very few mediums
00:07:31.220 where you have the opportunity to speak freely.
00:07:34.300 You know, True North is a great example of that
00:07:36.240 where it's uncensored,
00:07:39.020 not in the way that this is explicit,
00:07:40.960 but in the way that nuance is applied to the conversation.
00:07:43.800 So I'm lucky in the sense
00:07:46.440 that I have a modest following.
00:07:50.100 Again, I still find it bizarre
00:07:52.200 that I was canceled when, you know,
00:07:54.140 I quite frankly don't matter that much
00:07:56.520 to be on the front cover of the paper,
00:07:58.580 but I think I was turned into a political mascot,
00:08:01.820 and I'm somewhat lucky
00:08:03.960 that I do have that following.
00:08:05.380 Others aren't.
00:08:06.300 There's a, I believe,
00:08:07.520 a laborer in California
00:08:09.820 did the same gesture,
00:08:11.520 and I think he was just flicking a booger
00:08:13.240 or something,
00:08:14.100 but someone took a picture of him,
00:08:15.580 and he lost his job.
00:08:16.560 Wow.
00:08:17.340 Right?
00:08:17.740 So when we talk about cancel culture,
00:08:20.220 we get so into the weeds of,
00:08:22.020 you know, Gina Carano,
00:08:23.800 or what's happening to that celebrity,
00:08:25.800 or this celebrity,
00:08:26.780 but really that's just a vacuum
00:08:29.240 of what seems to be happening
00:08:30.740 to normal everyday people now.
00:08:32.240 For years,
00:08:33.000 I've gotten messages from people saying,
00:08:36.100 I support everything you do,
00:08:37.200 but I can't be public about it,
00:08:38.500 or this happened to me,
00:08:39.680 and I don't know what to do,
00:08:40.640 or, you know, even with this,
00:08:42.380 I had a lot of people say,
00:08:43.560 like, this is nonsense and everything,
00:08:45.040 but I obviously can't be public about it.
00:08:46.820 And after a while,
00:08:47.660 you begin to realize
00:08:48.680 that we've essentially handed,
00:08:50.840 you know, the keys to the culture
00:08:52.340 to a very vocal minority.
00:08:55.340 The vast majority of people
00:08:56.660 look at that gesture,
00:08:57.520 and they're like,
00:08:58.160 you know, scuba diver means okay.
00:09:00.280 If the waitress asks you
00:09:01.220 how your food is,
00:09:01.880 your mouth is full,
00:09:02.640 you do that gesture.
00:09:03.600 It means nothing.
00:09:04.920 But the framing of it is,
00:09:07.160 this is widely regarded
00:09:08.840 as a white power symbol.
00:09:10.920 And even that word widely,
00:09:13.140 that is,
00:09:13.980 it's all tactical.
00:09:15.420 And I know it
00:09:16.280 because I'm a journalist too.
00:09:17.940 Like, we know how the game works.
00:09:19.820 Yeah, someone who doesn't know
00:09:21.780 the implications of that,
00:09:23.860 who themselves,
00:09:24.840 if you were to flash that sign
00:09:26.020 to them on the street one day,
00:09:27.740 would have no idea
00:09:29.760 there was anything
00:09:30.440 potentially illicit about it,
00:09:32.140 they would read that story
00:09:33.640 and assume by the way it's framed
00:09:35.500 that, oh, well, he must have,
00:09:36.560 I didn't know it was that,
00:09:37.480 but he must have known.
00:09:38.520 And that's where it becomes.
00:09:40.200 So you start imputing motive
00:09:41.700 and the worst possible interpretation
00:09:44.600 of what could be
00:09:45.760 the most mundane of things.
00:09:47.400 Yeah, well, and then, of course,
00:09:48.820 you have situations
00:09:49.660 like Kennedy Stewart,
00:09:51.000 the mayor of Vancouver,
00:09:51.760 who probably doesn't know
00:09:53.120 anything about culture wars.
00:09:55.280 Or about anything, frankly.
00:09:56.680 Yeah, or about anything, frankly.
00:09:58.080 I mean, he's been a disaster mayor.
00:10:00.580 And he releases a statement,
00:10:01.820 again, under the city letterhead.
00:10:03.500 Yeah.
00:10:03.720 So the state is calling me a radical.
00:10:06.840 He came after me in a statement.
00:10:08.140 He doesn't name me explicitly,
00:10:09.920 but he's very concerned
00:10:11.760 about radicalism within this other party.
00:10:15.820 And people need to realize
00:10:17.660 there are repercussions
00:10:18.520 when you say things.
00:10:19.780 I know we're all sitting
00:10:20.580 at our keyboards
00:10:21.320 and we think that, you know,
00:10:22.820 this isn't real life.
00:10:24.180 But when you say that about someone,
00:10:26.160 it affects the other person's life.
00:10:28.380 I mean, I've had to resign
00:10:29.300 from this position.
00:10:30.200 I've gotten death threats.
00:10:31.700 I've gotten hate mail.
00:10:33.400 Very recently,
00:10:34.440 a family member of mine
00:10:35.540 has had their workplace contacted
00:10:37.040 and now they're under review.
00:10:39.540 This is a problem
00:10:40.740 because, again,
00:10:43.380 I'm in a lucky position
00:10:44.440 where I work in media.
00:10:46.540 So I'm able to,
00:10:47.340 I'm already on that battlefield.
00:10:48.380 Yeah, you have a natural bounce back
00:10:51.020 because you have a platform.
00:10:52.400 A lot of the people
00:10:53.140 that you've even alluded to
00:10:55.380 don't have that.
00:10:56.320 I mean, for them,
00:10:56.920 being called some of the names
00:10:58.640 that have been applied to you
00:10:59.720 is just the end of any ambition
00:11:01.500 and any hope they would have
00:11:02.620 at doing anything.
00:11:04.280 And you'd said something
00:11:05.860 that I thought was
00:11:06.820 very interesting there
00:11:08.200 about the silent ally
00:11:10.780 and the silent friend in this.
00:11:13.100 And it's something
00:11:13.580 that I've been through myself,
00:11:15.280 which is why I think
00:11:16.260 there's something
00:11:17.140 that needs to be said about this.
00:11:19.400 It starts to reinforce your,
00:11:22.160 if you responded the way I did
00:11:24.020 when it happened to me,
00:11:24.660 it starts to reinforce
00:11:25.500 your toxicity in some ways
00:11:27.080 because you start wondering,
00:11:28.940 oh, well, if all these people
00:11:30.880 are afraid, maybe it's true
00:11:31.960 or maybe I am actually damaged.
00:11:33.980 And you start to view dynamics
00:11:36.480 through that lens.
00:11:37.580 Yeah.
00:11:37.880 Well, you get gas,
00:11:38.800 it's gaslighting essentially
00:11:40.120 because on one hand,
00:11:42.520 part of you is,
00:11:43.700 you're so low
00:11:44.860 that you're thankful
00:11:45.840 that someone does validate
00:11:47.380 and say you're a good person.
00:11:48.500 Even if they're only telling you
00:11:50.200 and would never say
00:11:50.960 it anywhere anyone else.
00:11:52.340 Exactly.
00:11:52.880 But on the second hand,
00:11:53.640 when you look at it,
00:11:54.180 you're like,
00:11:55.160 there's a problem here.
00:11:57.080 Because everyone is saying that,
00:11:59.760 but so few people
00:12:00.640 are willing to say it publicly.
00:12:02.180 Yeah.
00:12:02.640 So what is it
00:12:03.600 that we're all afraid of?
00:12:04.740 I understand.
00:12:06.140 It's scary.
00:12:07.200 It's scary to have
00:12:08.100 your employer contacted.
00:12:09.500 It's scary to have people
00:12:10.520 who are essentially
00:12:11.200 obsessed with you
00:12:12.160 to come after you
00:12:13.740 and try to ruin your life.
00:12:14.680 The Google results
00:12:15.440 are there now.
00:12:16.880 If you Google my name,
00:12:18.140 white supremacist comes up.
00:12:20.020 Well, that,
00:12:20.560 but that,
00:12:21.320 that is the dangerous part though
00:12:23.040 because in terms of the buzz
00:12:25.460 and the trending topics,
00:12:26.840 people move on.
00:12:27.740 And in your case,
00:12:28.780 it seemed like people
00:12:29.420 moved on very quickly,
00:12:30.440 but that doesn't make it
00:12:32.180 go away for the person.
00:12:34.020 And that's the big issue
00:12:35.980 that I think cancel culture
00:12:37.980 needs to address
00:12:39.680 or needs to have addressed
00:12:42.140 and by extension be obliterated
00:12:43.680 in that regard.
00:12:44.340 It is that,
00:12:45.260 yeah,
00:12:45.460 the,
00:12:45.700 the trend moves on,
00:12:46.860 the mob moves on,
00:12:47.800 the horde moves on,
00:12:48.700 but the carnage
00:12:50.560 that they left behind
00:12:51.800 is still there.
00:12:53.500 And there is no remedy
00:12:55.820 that we've built
00:12:56.540 into society yet for that.
00:12:58.760 No,
00:12:59.060 and I think it's,
00:12:59.940 it's intentional
00:13:00.600 on the other side
00:13:01.420 because what they do,
00:13:02.540 again,
00:13:02.920 there's,
00:13:03.220 there's an ecology
00:13:04.260 on the left
00:13:05.280 and I'm talking about
00:13:06.000 the radical left.
00:13:06.960 There's an ecology
00:13:07.900 where you have
00:13:08.720 different quote unquote
00:13:09.680 journalists
00:13:10.140 that build a narrative
00:13:11.260 about someone
00:13:12.060 and that narrative
00:13:13.440 then encapsulates
00:13:15.060 the Wikipedia article.
00:13:16.340 Yeah.
00:13:16.660 Because you have sources.
00:13:17.980 Well,
00:13:18.340 that source says that
00:13:19.300 and that.
00:13:19.960 It's the same
00:13:20.420 as the widely regarded ads.
00:13:21.740 It's the widely regarded.
00:13:22.300 He is widely believed to be.
00:13:23.900 Yes.
00:13:24.420 Widely believed to be by who?
00:13:26.140 Three crazy people
00:13:27.300 on Twitter.
00:13:28.300 Right?
00:13:28.660 Yeah.
00:13:29.020 So it's,
00:13:29.520 it's,
00:13:30.000 it's a tactic
00:13:31.580 that is used
00:13:32.620 to mislead the layman,
00:13:34.920 the person,
00:13:35.780 the person,
00:13:36.260 the people that we speak to,
00:13:37.400 right?
00:13:37.600 The people who work
00:13:38.460 nine to five,
00:13:39.080 they get home,
00:13:39.900 they don't have time
00:13:41.240 to go through
00:13:42.300 10 hours of pages
00:13:43.660 to see,
00:13:44.300 oh,
00:13:44.600 wow,
00:13:44.880 this is a hoax.
00:13:46.200 They actually lied
00:13:47.000 about this person.
00:13:47.980 This is a total,
00:13:49.020 complete fabrication.
00:13:50.540 They don't have time,
00:13:51.300 right?
00:13:51.540 They read what they see.
00:13:52.520 They say,
00:13:52.760 oh,
00:13:52.900 widely regarded
00:13:53.620 as a white power symbol.
00:13:55.020 They're like,
00:13:55.400 oh,
00:13:55.620 I didn't think that,
00:13:56.400 but they're saying
00:13:56.960 that that's what it is.
00:13:58.440 I mean,
00:13:58.620 there's a reason
00:13:59.260 why trust in the media
00:14:00.520 is so low,
00:14:02.480 right?
00:14:02.800 It's not that populist
00:14:05.400 promoted fake news
00:14:06.840 narratives or whatever.
00:14:07.980 There's clearly
00:14:08.720 a problem here
00:14:09.520 and you're affecting
00:14:10.220 people's lives
00:14:11.080 and in this case,
00:14:12.680 I had to have
00:14:13.620 a conversation
00:14:14.260 with myself.
00:14:16.040 What do I do here?
00:14:17.060 Do I pack my bags
00:14:17.920 and move to Alaska?
00:14:19.640 Like,
00:14:19.900 what,
00:14:20.520 the government
00:14:21.640 of my city
00:14:22.380 is calling me a radical.
00:14:23.720 Yeah.
00:14:24.180 This outlet
00:14:24.920 that ranks high on Google
00:14:26.260 is calling me a radical.
00:14:28.020 It's calling me
00:14:28.580 something so abhorrent,
00:14:29.880 something my ancestors
00:14:31.180 fought against,
00:14:31.940 something that I fight against
00:14:33.740 and I have a body of work
00:14:34.780 to show it
00:14:35.340 and you try to
00:14:36.240 intellectualize it
00:14:37.200 by being like,
00:14:37.740 well,
00:14:37.820 no,
00:14:38.040 I can't be this
00:14:38.680 because here's evidence
00:14:40.040 and here's this
00:14:40.840 and,
00:14:41.420 you know,
00:14:41.640 I'm not exactly,
00:14:43.600 again,
00:14:44.120 I've repeated this many times
00:14:45.180 but I'm not exactly
00:14:45.880 Hitler's wet dream.
00:14:47.280 So,
00:14:48.140 you try to apply logic to it
00:14:50.620 and what you realize
00:14:51.560 is that they know
00:14:52.860 what they're doing.
00:14:53.840 Half these people
00:14:54.540 know what they're doing.
00:14:55.360 They're acting in bad faith
00:14:56.540 to try to eliminate you
00:14:58.240 from the media
00:14:59.540 and the equation
00:15:00.220 but the other half
00:15:01.760 are just unknowingly
00:15:02.920 consuming it
00:15:03.680 and being a Twitter mob.
00:15:04.840 So,
00:15:05.500 I'm in a position now
00:15:06.600 where,
00:15:07.540 again,
00:15:07.880 I have to choose
00:15:08.420 whether to walk away
00:15:09.180 or to fight
00:15:09.680 and I have to fight it.
00:15:12.040 So,
00:15:12.680 if that's what my life is now,
00:15:14.440 if that's what my life
00:15:15.300 will ever be,
00:15:16.380 is trying to clear my name,
00:15:18.340 what do you do?
00:15:19.340 Because if you let it be,
00:15:20.960 they get emboldened.
00:15:21.960 We know that.
00:15:22.760 These people celebrate
00:15:24.160 when they cancel someone,
00:15:25.620 when they got genified
00:15:26.760 from the Mandalorian.
00:15:28.640 They see it as a moral,
00:15:30.400 virtuous victory
00:15:31.360 and it's evil.
00:15:33.440 And the only way
00:15:34.460 to defeat it
00:15:35.220 is to not let them
00:15:36.620 keep winning.
00:15:37.580 It's just,
00:15:38.500 they keep getting emboldened
00:15:39.480 and it happens
00:15:39.960 over and over again.
00:15:40.640 So,
00:15:40.820 it's not just about me.
00:15:42.660 It's about the next,
00:15:43.820 you know,
00:15:44.220 schmuck.
00:15:44.680 You've talked about
00:15:46.020 legal action
00:15:47.280 and I'm wondering
00:15:48.760 if you could elaborate
00:15:49.900 on where you think
00:15:51.220 the fight needs to be
00:15:52.300 because there do seem
00:15:53.080 to be two camps.
00:15:53.860 There's one side
00:15:54.440 that says,
00:15:54.860 you know what,
00:15:55.300 we need to,
00:15:56.520 you know,
00:15:56.860 get into a street fight
00:15:57.760 with them
00:15:58.200 and file lawsuits
00:15:59.120 and put them on defense.
00:16:00.740 And then there's,
00:16:01.460 I'd say,
00:16:01.720 the more romantic notion
00:16:02.980 that this is all something
00:16:04.140 we need to have out in culture
00:16:05.400 and we need to shift the debate
00:16:07.120 and shift the narrative.
00:16:07.880 And then there are probably
00:16:08.460 some hybrid positions.
00:16:09.680 But where do you,
00:16:11.440 I'll ask it in two ways actually.
00:16:13.280 Where did you,
00:16:14.140 before a month ago,
00:16:16.140 view the importance
00:16:17.360 of the fight
00:16:17.940 and where do you view it now?
00:16:19.380 I see it as a hybrid
00:16:20.960 because there seems
00:16:22.680 to be something inherent
00:16:23.800 in the West
00:16:24.860 which is a belief
00:16:26.100 in a justice system, right?
00:16:27.640 You believe someone wronged you,
00:16:29.560 they took something from you,
00:16:30.700 you,
00:16:31.140 we all are encapsulated
00:16:32.640 in this,
00:16:33.900 in this belief
00:16:34.720 that righteousness works,
00:16:36.400 that justice works.
00:16:38.480 And it's very scary
00:16:39.740 when you realize
00:16:40.600 that that's not always the case.
00:16:42.100 So I think,
00:16:43.240 on one hand,
00:16:44.160 the legal aspect
00:16:44.940 is there for a reason.
00:16:46.280 You look at
00:16:46.960 the Covington school boy,
00:16:49.420 the Nick Sandman,
00:16:50.320 I believe his name is,
00:16:51.120 who essentially
00:16:52.440 had his life ruined
00:16:53.840 over wearing a hat
00:16:55.100 and standing there.
00:16:57.320 And he sued
00:16:58.360 and he won.
00:16:59.080 I think he won
00:16:59.620 a ridiculous amount of money.
00:17:01.880 So,
00:17:02.840 on a legal aspect,
00:17:04.000 that sets a precedent
00:17:04.920 that is very important
00:17:05.980 that tells these radicals
00:17:07.760 there are consequences
00:17:08.820 to what you do.
00:17:09.640 Not just cultural consequences,
00:17:11.320 but real consequences.
00:17:12.500 So on that end,
00:17:14.400 you know,
00:17:14.800 I am suing the mayor.
00:17:16.180 I am suing this outlet.
00:17:17.420 Can I sue everyone?
00:17:18.480 Well, no.
00:17:19.120 Because I'm not,
00:17:19.780 you know,
00:17:20.860 it's unfortunate
00:17:21.940 that parts of the right
00:17:24.600 have made it
00:17:26.620 extremely commonplace
00:17:28.120 to just sue everyone
00:17:28.860 you don't like, right?
00:17:29.700 I mean,
00:17:29.860 even Trump himself
00:17:30.720 is just,
00:17:31.200 I'm just going to sue you.
00:17:33.080 The reality is that
00:17:34.340 part of justifying yourself
00:17:36.360 and clearing your name
00:17:37.200 is saying,
00:17:38.240 I am willing to die
00:17:39.260 on this hill.
00:17:40.360 I am going to die
00:17:41.120 on this hill in court
00:17:42.000 and I'm going to go
00:17:42.560 all the way,
00:17:43.020 let's do a discovery,
00:17:43.940 let's do everything
00:17:44.400 we have to do.
00:17:44.920 So that's one aspect.
00:17:46.200 But the other aspect
00:17:47.100 is cultural,
00:17:47.800 which is having
00:17:49.240 discussions about this,
00:17:50.400 which is reporting on it,
00:17:52.040 which is talking about
00:17:53.140 what it does
00:17:53.780 to people's lives
00:17:54.660 and how it doesn't
00:17:56.500 just happen
00:17:57.060 to the odd,
00:17:58.580 crazy person
00:17:59.460 that is,
00:18:00.000 well,
00:18:00.160 he's crazy,
00:18:00.920 he's radical,
00:18:01.920 he'll get cancelled
00:18:02.820 but it'll never come to me.
00:18:04.380 I'm in the middle,
00:18:05.680 right?
00:18:06.520 I mean,
00:18:06.960 we're at a point now
00:18:07.800 where even some leftists
00:18:09.720 are getting cancelled,
00:18:10.800 right?
00:18:11.000 Like,
00:18:11.480 it's come to a point
00:18:13.700 where as a culture
00:18:14.540 we need to have
00:18:15.200 a discussion
00:18:15.800 in terms of
00:18:17.280 what are the consequences
00:18:18.740 of what we've done
00:18:19.800 in the past
00:18:20.320 and furthermore,
00:18:21.600 how do we interpret things?
00:18:23.220 Because we talk about
00:18:24.180 mistakes made in the past.
00:18:26.120 How many of these cancellations
00:18:27.600 were really mistakes?
00:18:28.960 How many of these cancellations
00:18:30.220 were just
00:18:30.680 well-coordinated attacks?
00:18:33.160 Because what is
00:18:33.700 cancelled culture?
00:18:34.500 The left says,
00:18:35.220 well,
00:18:36.780 can't,
00:18:37.100 you know,
00:18:37.340 free speech
00:18:37.880 but not free from consequences.
00:18:39.480 It's consequences culture.
00:18:41.040 They've actually,
00:18:42.080 to use the left's terms,
00:18:43.400 they've appropriated
00:18:44.720 right-wing rhetoric
00:18:46.340 on that
00:18:47.640 because that was always
00:18:48.740 what conservatives
00:18:49.380 used to say
00:18:49.940 of,
00:18:50.140 well,
00:18:50.300 you know what,
00:18:50.680 it's the marketplace
00:18:51.220 of ideas
00:18:51.940 but they're not actually
00:18:53.660 committed to that.
00:18:55.100 They're only committed
00:18:55.860 to that in that narrow way
00:18:56.960 when it serves
00:18:57.500 their interest to cancel.
00:18:58.580 Yeah.
00:18:58.920 Well,
00:18:59.240 in this case,
00:19:00.080 they're saying,
00:19:00.560 oh,
00:19:00.760 you know,
00:19:01.480 so much for the free speech guy
00:19:03.300 you're going to sue
00:19:03.920 for defamation.
00:19:04.880 It's like,
00:19:05.700 there are consequences
00:19:06.680 to defaming someone.
00:19:07.720 And that is part
00:19:08.500 of the marketplace of ideas.
00:19:09.580 Exactly.
00:19:10.000 There's an expectation
00:19:11.380 of honesty
00:19:12.260 and if you aren't living
00:19:13.700 up to that end
00:19:14.420 of the bargain,
00:19:15.400 that moral contract
00:19:16.440 of honest speech,
00:19:17.420 you can be sued for it.
00:19:18.560 Exactly.
00:19:19.240 So it's funny
00:19:19.840 that they say,
00:19:20.340 well,
00:19:20.420 it's consequences culture.
00:19:21.660 You did that.
00:19:22.660 You deserve
00:19:23.220 the consequences now.
00:19:24.780 And it's,
00:19:26.100 again,
00:19:26.780 most of the time,
00:19:27.560 sometimes people
00:19:28.480 deserve to get cancelled
00:19:29.900 or whatever.
00:19:30.440 You know,
00:19:30.620 you look at Woody Allen
00:19:31.520 who's in the news
00:19:32.260 right now.
00:19:32.680 Yeah.
00:19:32.820 But in this case,
00:19:35.240 it is something
00:19:35.780 that is manufactured
00:19:36.920 by very few people
00:19:38.480 who are intentionally
00:19:39.280 trying to make
00:19:40.240 the perception
00:19:42.080 that everyone hates you.
00:19:44.400 Twitter is not real life.
00:19:45.920 No.
00:19:46.200 If you go to 90%
00:19:47.480 of the people on the street
00:19:48.440 and do that gesture,
00:19:49.380 they're going to say
00:19:49.800 that means okay.
00:19:51.120 If we talk about
00:19:52.000 the hat for a moment,
00:19:53.220 75 million people
00:19:54.620 voted for that hat.
00:19:56.440 So it's not just
00:19:57.840 a matter of having
00:19:58.640 a discussion on
00:19:59.980 how do we punish people
00:20:01.300 retroactively
00:20:02.020 for their past mistakes.
00:20:03.820 It's how do we realize
00:20:05.680 as a culture
00:20:06.420 that a lot of the time
00:20:08.240 they weren't mistakes.
00:20:09.780 A lot of the time
00:20:10.520 things that happened
00:20:11.620 in the past
00:20:12.160 were just not really
00:20:13.520 that big of a deal
00:20:14.700 in the grand scale.
00:20:16.740 Like,
00:20:16.960 why are we allowing
00:20:17.660 very few people
00:20:18.480 to coordinate
00:20:19.180 and destroy someone?
00:20:21.260 To some degree,
00:20:22.200 cancel culture
00:20:22.780 is an ancient
00:20:23.560 sort of thing.
00:20:24.840 You look at
00:20:25.300 Socrates,
00:20:26.200 who has,
00:20:26.560 you know,
00:20:26.800 taken...
00:20:27.680 Human history
00:20:28.660 is mobs
00:20:30.700 destroying someone,
00:20:32.260 right?
00:20:32.520 The greatest stories
00:20:33.400 in history are that.
00:20:34.380 It's the psychology
00:20:35.380 of the mob.
00:20:36.700 So Twitter's not
00:20:37.360 entirely new,
00:20:38.100 but the internet,
00:20:38.840 unfortunately,
00:20:39.420 has brought out
00:20:40.160 the worst in some of us.
00:20:41.720 So, yes,
00:20:43.140 you've got to do
00:20:43.620 the legal aspect
00:20:44.280 to save, you know,
00:20:45.260 your livelihood,
00:20:46.320 but at the same time,
00:20:48.300 we need to have
00:20:49.040 an open discussion
00:20:49.940 not only about
00:20:50.820 the past,
00:20:52.140 but the reality
00:20:53.100 that very few people
00:20:54.380 are coordinating
00:20:55.020 to destroy people.
00:20:56.720 Angelo Isidoro,
00:20:57.800 host of Cancel This
00:20:59.280 on the Post-Millennial,
00:21:00.560 and I'll say
00:21:01.360 Survivor of the Cancel Mob
00:21:02.660 because you're still
00:21:03.220 standing and you're
00:21:04.060 fighting back.
00:21:04.580 Thank you for chatting
00:21:05.180 about this.
00:21:05.640 Thank you for having me.
00:21:06.420 Thanks for listening
00:21:07.260 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:21:08.800 Support the program
00:21:09.520 by donating to
00:21:10.320 True North
00:21:10.760 at www.tnc.news.
00:21:13.920 The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:21:26.120 Bye.
00:21:26.760 Thank you for listening
00:21:31.540 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:21:35.220 I'll see you in the mix