Juno News - Podcaster cancelled for flashing an ＂OK＂ sign fights back

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:07.000 Happen to be in British Columbia right now, beautiful BC.

00:00:10.680 And given that I haven't seen another human being that I'm not married to for, you know, the last year,

00:00:15.220 I thought it would be a good opportunity to chat with a guest I was going to have on the show anyway this week.

00:00:19.760 But it just so happens we are in the same general vicinity.

00:00:23.540 And that is Angelo Isidoro, who you may know as the host of Cancel This,

00:00:27.560 a very popular podcast on the post-millennial,

00:00:30.760 but who ironically went through the cancel mob himself in recent weeks.

00:00:36.180 And I'm very glad is willing to speak up about it.

00:00:38.840 Now, this is particularly interesting because he has perspective at seeing this both as a cancelee,

00:00:45.140 but also as a journalist.

00:00:47.060 So we'll talk about this with Angelo Isidoro here on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:51.620 Angelo, good to talk to you. Thanks for joining me today.

00:00:53.800 Thank you for having me.

00:00:54.980 I want to talk about this from a couple of different perspectives, Angelo,

00:00:58.720 because you went through something that you've covered a great many times in other people.

00:01:04.720 And in a lot of ways, I think that makes your story more sympathetic,

00:01:08.440 because a lot of the times people who themselves have been part of cancel mobs will get canceled.

00:01:14.260 And it's very difficult for people to find sympathy for them.

00:01:17.260 Whereas you've understood before going through what you went through that this was a problem for quite a while.

00:01:22.620 Yeah, and it's helped me be more analytical of it, because it is a bizarre situation where,

00:01:27.980 I mean, for the past four years, I've been hosting speakers like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro,

00:01:32.720 and now I'm doing this podcast.

00:01:34.300 And even my writing is all situated around cancel culture.

00:01:37.820 So it's very bizarre to have it happen to you, right?

00:01:41.320 It's strange, but it gave me a perspective that is very nuanced,

00:01:46.740 where I, as a journalist and as a writer, as someone who looks at this stuff,

00:01:51.840 can analyze it from a perspective of, this is how this animal works.

00:01:55.480 This is how the mob works.

00:01:56.600 This is what they do first.

00:01:57.980 This is why they use that word.

00:01:59.440 This is how it happens, and this is how they ruin your life.

00:02:01.700 I have to say that reporting on it and speaking to people is very different from having it happen to you.

00:02:07.820 It's obviously completely different, and that's sort of what frazzled me the most,

00:02:11.640 was although I've realized and I've known that the cancel mob is malevolent, 0.52

00:02:17.440 having it actually happen to you is a whole other story.

00:02:20.320 It's kind of horrifying.

00:02:22.900 Let's talk about what happened, because in a lot of perspectives,

00:02:27.040 this may not have tripped a lot of people's radars nationwide.

00:02:30.540 This was a regional story to some extent, but for you, it becomes your whole world,

00:02:35.380 and we'll talk about that.

00:02:36.920 You have been involved, as you've just mentioned, in various forms of political activism.

00:02:41.760 You were sitting on the board of a municipal political party in Vancouver,

00:02:45.280 which is a phenomenon that people outside of Vancouver might not understand as much,

00:02:49.520 the Nonpartisan Association.

00:02:51.860 And there was a story that was presented as one about the NPA,

00:02:57.440 but ended up becoming about you in a lot of ways,

00:03:00.060 and a photograph of you making this gesture that I've always known in my life

00:03:05.060 as being about nothing but the word okay.

00:03:08.300 And, I mean, I'm going to get canceled for doing that in the show.

00:03:11.040 Yeah, I was about to say that I have nothing to do with this guy.

00:03:15.040 We will blur it out.

00:03:15.940 We will blur it out in the final.

00:03:17.180 But you did that.

00:03:18.060 You were wearing a Make America Great Again hat,

00:03:20.860 and this was presented as evidence that this organization you were with had gone far right.

00:03:26.700 Does that sum up, at the very surface level, the story?

00:03:30.440 Yeah, it does.

00:03:31.160 It's a strange story because it is dressed in a hyper-localized issue,

00:03:35.700 which is the Nonpartisan Association.

00:03:37.300 Out of everything I do, a volunteer position that is completely innocuous,

00:03:42.720 I mean, I'm interested in housing.

00:03:44.500 That's why I got involved in it.

00:03:46.080 They use that as a vehicle to cancel me,

00:03:50.000 and I've since been essentially forced to resign from that position.

00:03:52.920 So, as you said, you know, this outlet took a picture of me four years ago

00:03:59.160 when I was, you know, a first-year university student,

00:04:01.920 and I was going to a protest happening in downtown Vancouver,

00:04:05.780 which was a Trump Tower was opening, and people were upset.

00:04:09.160 So me and other college kids thought it would be, you know, silly and dumb

00:04:14.400 to wear a Trump hat and go and mess with people.

00:04:18.580 And, of course, at that time in February of 2017,

00:04:22.800 that gesture, besides being known innocuously as okay,

00:04:26.760 was also a silly mimicry of Trump, right?

00:04:29.600 If you watch even SNL with Alec Baldwin playing Trump,

00:04:32.680 Trump has always had really bizarre hand gestures.

00:04:34.720 So that's what that was.

00:04:36.180 Later on, it turned into something else,

00:04:38.260 but they took that photo, sat on it for four years now,

00:04:43.140 and waited until, you know, this opportunity to release it

00:04:46.600 under the context of, well, the Christchurch shooter used the same gesture.

00:04:52.080 January 6th just happened, the insurrection in the States.

00:04:55.300 They wait for things to happen and then retroactively try to ruin your life.

00:04:58.740 So that's what they did there.

00:05:00.940 Again, they dressed it up as a municipal issue.

00:05:03.500 So even the mayor of Vancouver got involved

00:05:06.180 and released a statement under the city government.

00:05:08.980 Yeah.

00:05:09.100 So it turned into this big hyper-localized issue,

00:05:13.840 but it's a broader issue that relates to really one of the most egregious,

00:05:18.800 and obviously I'm biased, but an egregious case of cancel culture

00:05:22.540 because it's a total lie.

00:05:24.060 It's a total fabrication.

00:05:26.100 And that's, I'd say, at the crux of cancel culture,

00:05:29.380 is you take a two-dimensional caricature of someone,

00:05:33.240 which may or may not be true.

00:05:34.600 It either captures someone's worst moment

00:05:37.580 or it completely concocts a moment in an image,

00:05:40.820 and it tries to apply that to every other facet of their life.

00:05:45.180 And in your case, you actually have a body of work to speak of,

00:05:49.420 and I think that's why that's so difficult,

00:05:51.020 is that in the nearly four years since that photo,

00:05:53.900 you have put on record what you stand for, what you believe in.

00:05:57.720 And I've heard episodes that you've done.

00:05:59.940 I've had some exchanges with you.

00:06:02.220 It doesn't fit.

00:06:03.400 And if you were a blank slate

00:06:05.880 and they didn't have anything else to judge you on

00:06:08.240 but that photo, sure, maybe you could ask some questions.

00:06:10.480 But that, I think, is what I find the worst about this,

00:06:13.220 is that there's no understanding that people grow.

00:06:15.380 There's no understanding that, hey, this snapshot in time

00:06:18.440 might have represented something else.

00:06:20.520 Yeah, I think it's more difficult for them

00:06:22.800 because I've been so public in my life,

00:06:25.520 and a lot of that is intentional

00:06:26.820 because when you are in politics,

00:06:28.820 when you're writing about politics, you're just engaged,

00:06:30.700 it's very important that you don't do this PR-recommended thing

00:06:34.340 of just be silent, don't answer, don't do it.

00:06:37.080 Because at the end of the day, when you look at me,

00:06:39.340 whether you're listening to me or you look at my face,

00:06:41.320 I don't match what they're accusing me of.

00:06:45.320 Yeah, I don't look at you and see white supremacists.

00:06:48.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:06:49.460 And even if you listen to my content,

00:06:51.600 like, I'm a pretty moderate guy,

00:06:53.660 so they intentionally ignore that

00:06:55.820 to such a degree where, you know,

00:06:57.920 when these outlets want to defame you,

00:07:00.880 they're not acting in good faith.

00:07:03.040 So whether you issue a statement or not,

00:07:04.980 it doesn't really make a difference.

00:07:06.620 You know, to one of the outlets,

00:07:08.040 I issued a statement,

00:07:09.120 I provided links explaining that

00:07:10.740 this was essentially a hoax

00:07:12.980 that was co-opted later and this, et cetera,

00:07:16.200 and they intentionally ignore it

00:07:17.500 because it doesn't fit their narrative.

00:07:18.980 Because if that gesture doesn't mean anything,

00:07:21.700 what's the story?

00:07:23.180 How do we destroy this person's life, right?

00:07:26.240 They have to build you up into a villain.

00:07:29.220 And unfortunately, there are very few mediums

00:07:31.220 where you have the opportunity to speak freely.

00:07:34.300 You know, True North is a great example of that

00:07:36.240 where it's uncensored,

00:07:39.020 not in the way that this is explicit,

00:07:40.960 but in the way that nuance is applied to the conversation.

00:07:43.800 So I'm lucky in the sense

00:07:46.440 that I have a modest following.

00:07:50.100 Again, I still find it bizarre

00:07:52.200 that I was canceled when, you know,

00:07:54.140 I quite frankly don't matter that much

00:07:56.520 to be on the front cover of the paper,

00:07:58.580 but I think I was turned into a political mascot,

00:08:01.820 and I'm somewhat lucky

00:08:03.960 that I do have that following.

00:08:05.380 Others aren't.

00:08:06.300 There's a, I believe,

00:08:07.520 a laborer in California

00:08:09.820 did the same gesture,

00:08:11.520 and I think he was just flicking a booger

00:08:13.240 or something,

00:08:14.100 but someone took a picture of him,

00:08:15.580 and he lost his job.

00:08:16.560 Wow.

00:08:17.340 Right?

00:08:17.740 So when we talk about cancel culture,

00:08:20.220 we get so into the weeds of,

00:08:22.020 you know, Gina Carano,

00:08:23.800 or what's happening to that celebrity,

00:08:25.800 or this celebrity,

00:08:26.780 but really that's just a vacuum

00:08:29.240 of what seems to be happening

00:08:30.740 to normal everyday people now.

00:08:32.240 For years,

00:08:33.000 I've gotten messages from people saying,

00:08:36.100 I support everything you do,

00:08:37.200 but I can't be public about it,

00:08:38.500 or this happened to me,

00:08:39.680 and I don't know what to do,

00:08:40.640 or, you know, even with this,

00:08:42.380 I had a lot of people say,

00:08:43.560 like, this is nonsense and everything,

00:08:45.040 but I obviously can't be public about it.

00:08:46.820 And after a while,

00:08:47.660 you begin to realize

00:08:48.680 that we've essentially handed,

00:08:50.840 you know, the keys to the culture

00:08:52.340 to a very vocal minority.

00:08:55.340 The vast majority of people

00:08:56.660 look at that gesture,

00:08:57.520 and they're like,

00:08:58.160 you know, scuba diver means okay.

00:09:00.280 If the waitress asks you

00:09:01.220 how your food is,

00:09:01.880 your mouth is full,

00:09:02.640 you do that gesture.

00:09:03.600 It means nothing.

00:09:04.920 But the framing of it is,

00:09:07.160 this is widely regarded

00:09:08.840 as a white power symbol.

00:09:10.920 And even that word widely,

00:09:13.140 that is,

00:09:13.980 it's all tactical.

00:09:15.420 And I know it

00:09:16.280 because I'm a journalist too.

00:09:17.940 Like, we know how the game works.

00:09:19.820 Yeah, someone who doesn't know

00:09:21.780 the implications of that,

00:09:23.860 who themselves,

00:09:24.840 if you were to flash that sign

00:09:26.020 to them on the street one day,

00:09:27.740 would have no idea

00:09:29.760 there was anything

00:09:30.440 potentially illicit about it,

00:09:32.140 they would read that story

00:09:33.640 and assume by the way it's framed

00:09:35.500 that, oh, well, he must have,

00:09:36.560 I didn't know it was that,

00:09:37.480 but he must have known.

00:09:38.520 And that's where it becomes.

00:09:40.200 So you start imputing motive

00:09:41.700 and the worst possible interpretation

00:09:44.600 of what could be

00:09:45.760 the most mundane of things.

00:09:47.400 Yeah, well, and then, of course,

00:09:48.820 you have situations

00:09:49.660 like Kennedy Stewart,

00:09:51.000 the mayor of Vancouver,

00:09:51.760 who probably doesn't know

00:09:53.120 anything about culture wars.

00:09:55.280 Or about anything, frankly.

00:09:56.680 Yeah, or about anything, frankly.

00:09:58.080 I mean, he's been a disaster mayor.

00:10:00.580 And he releases a statement,

00:10:01.820 again, under the city letterhead.

00:10:03.500 Yeah.

00:10:03.720 So the state is calling me a radical.

00:10:06.840 He came after me in a statement.

00:10:08.140 He doesn't name me explicitly,

00:10:09.920 but he's very concerned

00:10:11.760 about radicalism within this other party.

00:10:15.820 And people need to realize

00:10:17.660 there are repercussions

00:10:18.520 when you say things.

00:10:19.780 I know we're all sitting

00:10:20.580 at our keyboards

00:10:21.320 and we think that, you know,

00:10:22.820 this isn't real life.

00:10:24.180 But when you say that about someone,

00:10:26.160 it affects the other person's life.

00:10:28.380 I mean, I've had to resign

00:10:29.300 from this position.

00:10:30.200 I've gotten death threats.

00:10:31.700 I've gotten hate mail.

00:10:33.400 Very recently,

00:10:34.440 a family member of mine

00:10:35.540 has had their workplace contacted

00:10:37.040 and now they're under review.

00:10:39.540 This is a problem

00:10:40.740 because, again,

00:10:43.380 I'm in a lucky position

00:10:44.440 where I work in media.

00:10:46.540 So I'm able to,

00:10:47.340 I'm already on that battlefield.

00:10:48.380 Yeah, you have a natural bounce back

00:10:51.020 because you have a platform.

00:10:52.400 A lot of the people

00:10:53.140 that you've even alluded to

00:10:55.380 don't have that.

00:10:56.320 I mean, for them,

00:10:56.920 being called some of the names

00:10:58.640 that have been applied to you

00:10:59.720 is just the end of any ambition

00:11:01.500 and any hope they would have

00:11:02.620 at doing anything.

00:11:04.280 And you'd said something

00:11:05.860 that I thought was

00:11:06.820 very interesting there

00:11:08.200 about the silent ally

00:11:10.780 and the silent friend in this.

00:11:13.100 And it's something

00:11:13.580 that I've been through myself,

00:11:15.280 which is why I think

00:11:16.260 there's something

00:11:17.140 that needs to be said about this.

00:11:19.400 It starts to reinforce your,

00:11:22.160 if you responded the way I did

00:11:24.020 when it happened to me,

00:11:24.660 it starts to reinforce

00:11:25.500 your toxicity in some ways

00:11:27.080 because you start wondering,

00:11:28.940 oh, well, if all these people

00:11:30.880 are afraid, maybe it's true

00:11:31.960 or maybe I am actually damaged.

00:11:33.980 And you start to view dynamics

00:11:36.480 through that lens.

00:11:37.580 Yeah.

00:11:37.880 Well, you get gas,

00:11:38.800 it's gaslighting essentially

00:11:40.120 because on one hand,

00:11:42.520 part of you is,

00:11:43.700 you're so low

00:11:44.860 that you're thankful

00:11:45.840 that someone does validate

00:11:47.380 and say you're a good person.

00:11:48.500 Even if they're only telling you

00:11:50.200 and would never say

00:11:50.960 it anywhere anyone else.

00:11:52.340 Exactly.

00:11:52.880 But on the second hand,

00:11:53.640 when you look at it,

00:11:54.180 you're like,

00:11:55.160 there's a problem here.

00:11:57.080 Because everyone is saying that,

00:11:59.760 but so few people

00:12:00.640 are willing to say it publicly.

00:12:02.180 Yeah.

00:12:02.640 So what is it

00:12:03.600 that we're all afraid of?

00:12:04.740 I understand.

00:12:06.140 It's scary.

00:12:07.200 It's scary to have

00:12:08.100 your employer contacted.

00:12:09.500 It's scary to have people

00:12:10.520 who are essentially

00:12:11.200 obsessed with you

00:12:12.160 to come after you

00:12:13.740 and try to ruin your life. 0.56

00:12:14.680 The Google results

00:12:15.440 are there now.

00:12:16.880 If you Google my name,

00:12:18.140 white supremacist comes up.

00:12:20.020 Well, that,

00:12:20.560 but that,

00:12:21.320 that is the dangerous part though

00:12:23.040 because in terms of the buzz

00:12:25.460 and the trending topics,

00:12:26.840 people move on.

00:12:27.740 And in your case,

00:12:28.780 it seemed like people

00:12:29.420 moved on very quickly,

00:12:30.440 but that doesn't make it

00:12:32.180 go away for the person.

00:12:34.020 And that's the big issue

00:12:35.980 that I think cancel culture

00:12:37.980 needs to address

00:12:39.680 or needs to have addressed

00:12:42.140 and by extension be obliterated

00:12:43.680 in that regard.

00:12:44.340 It is that,

00:12:45.260 yeah,

00:12:45.460 the,

00:12:45.700 the trend moves on,

00:12:46.860 the mob moves on,

00:12:47.800 the horde moves on,

00:12:48.700 but the carnage

00:12:50.560 that they left behind

00:12:51.800 is still there.

00:12:53.500 And there is no remedy

00:12:55.820 that we've built

00:12:56.540 into society yet for that.

00:12:58.760 No,

00:12:59.060 and I think it's,

00:12:59.940 it's intentional

00:13:00.600 on the other side

00:13:01.420 because what they do,

00:13:02.540 again,

00:13:02.920 there's,

00:13:03.220 there's an ecology

00:13:04.260 on the left

00:13:05.280 and I'm talking about

00:13:06.000 the radical left.

00:13:06.960 There's an ecology

00:13:07.900 where you have

00:13:08.720 different quote unquote

00:13:09.680 journalists

00:13:10.140 that build a narrative

00:13:11.260 about someone

00:13:12.060 and that narrative

00:13:13.440 then encapsulates

00:13:15.060 the Wikipedia article.

00:13:16.340 Yeah.

00:13:16.660 Because you have sources.

00:13:17.980 Well,

00:13:18.340 that source says that

00:13:19.300 and that.

00:13:19.960 It's the same 0.53

00:13:20.420 as the widely regarded ads.

00:13:21.740 It's the widely regarded.

00:13:22.300 He is widely believed to be.

00:13:23.900 Yes.

00:13:24.420 Widely believed to be by who?

00:13:26.140 Three crazy people

00:13:27.300 on Twitter.

00:13:28.300 Right?

00:13:28.660 Yeah.

00:13:29.020 So it's,

00:13:29.520 it's,

00:13:30.000 it's a tactic

00:13:31.580 that is used

00:13:32.620 to mislead the layman,

00:13:34.920 the person,

00:13:35.780 the person,

00:13:36.260 the people that we speak to,

00:13:37.400 right?

00:13:37.600 The people who work

00:13:38.460 nine to five,

00:13:39.080 they get home,

00:13:39.900 they don't have time

00:13:41.240 to go through

00:13:42.300 10 hours of pages

00:13:43.660 to see,

00:13:44.300 oh,

00:13:44.600 wow,

00:13:44.880 this is a hoax.

00:13:46.200 They actually lied

00:13:47.000 about this person.

00:13:47.980 This is a total,

00:13:49.020 complete fabrication.

00:13:50.540 They don't have time,

00:13:51.300 right?

00:13:51.540 They read what they see.

00:13:52.520 They say,

00:13:52.760 oh,

00:13:52.900 widely regarded

00:13:53.620 as a white power symbol.

00:13:55.020 They're like,

00:13:55.400 oh,

00:13:55.620 I didn't think that,

00:13:56.400 but they're saying

00:13:56.960 that that's what it is.

00:13:58.440 I mean,

00:13:58.620 there's a reason

00:13:59.260 why trust in the media

00:14:00.520 is so low,

00:14:02.480 right?

00:14:02.800 It's not that populist

00:14:05.400 promoted fake news

00:14:06.840 narratives or whatever.

00:14:07.980 There's clearly

00:14:08.720 a problem here

00:14:09.520 and you're affecting

00:14:10.220 people's lives

00:14:11.080 and in this case,

00:14:12.680 I had to have

00:14:13.620 a conversation

00:14:14.260 with myself.

00:14:16.040 What do I do here?

00:14:17.060 Do I pack my bags

00:14:17.920 and move to Alaska?

00:14:19.640 Like,

00:14:19.900 what,

00:14:20.520 the government

00:14:21.640 of my city

00:14:22.380 is calling me a radical.

00:14:23.720 Yeah.

00:14:24.180 This outlet

00:14:24.920 that ranks high on Google

00:14:26.260 is calling me a radical.

00:14:28.020 It's calling me

00:14:28.580 something so abhorrent,

00:14:29.880 something my ancestors

00:14:31.180 fought against,

00:14:31.940 something that I fight against

00:14:33.740 and I have a body of work

00:14:34.780 to show it

00:14:35.340 and you try to

00:14:36.240 intellectualize it

00:14:37.200 by being like,

00:14:37.740 well,

00:14:37.820 no,

00:14:38.040 I can't be this

00:14:38.680 because here's evidence

00:14:40.040 and here's this

00:14:40.840 and,

00:14:41.420 you know,

00:14:41.640 I'm not exactly,

00:14:43.600 again,

00:14:44.120 I've repeated this many times

00:14:45.180 but I'm not exactly

00:14:45.880 Hitler's wet dream. 0.97

00:14:47.280 So,

00:14:48.140 you try to apply logic to it

00:14:50.620 and what you realize

00:14:51.560 is that they know

00:14:52.860 what they're doing.

00:14:53.840 Half these people

00:14:54.540 know what they're doing.

00:14:55.360 They're acting in bad faith

00:14:56.540 to try to eliminate you

00:14:58.240 from the media

00:14:59.540 and the equation

00:15:00.220 but the other half

00:15:01.760 are just unknowingly

00:15:02.920 consuming it

00:15:03.680 and being a Twitter mob.

00:15:04.840 So,

00:15:05.500 I'm in a position now

00:15:06.600 where,

00:15:07.540 again,

00:15:07.880 I have to choose

00:15:08.420 whether to walk away

00:15:09.180 or to fight

00:15:09.680 and I have to fight it.

00:15:12.040 So,

00:15:12.680 if that's what my life is now,

00:15:14.440 if that's what my life

00:15:15.300 will ever be,

00:15:16.380 is trying to clear my name,

00:15:18.340 what do you do?

00:15:19.340 Because if you let it be,

00:15:20.960 they get emboldened.

00:15:21.960 We know that.

00:15:22.760 These people celebrate

00:15:24.160 when they cancel someone,

00:15:25.620 when they got genified

00:15:26.760 from the Mandalorian.

00:15:28.640 They see it as a moral,

00:15:30.400 virtuous victory

00:15:31.360 and it's evil.

00:15:33.440 And the only way

00:15:34.460 to defeat it

00:15:35.220 is to not let them

00:15:36.620 keep winning.

00:15:37.580 It's just,

00:15:38.500 they keep getting emboldened

00:15:39.480 and it happens

00:15:39.960 over and over again.

00:15:40.640 So,

00:15:40.820 it's not just about me.

00:15:42.660 It's about the next,

00:15:43.820 you know,

00:15:44.220 schmuck. 0.68

00:15:44.680 You've talked about

00:15:46.020 legal action

00:15:47.280 and I'm wondering

00:15:48.760 if you could elaborate

00:15:49.900 on where you think

00:15:51.220 the fight needs to be

00:15:52.300 because there do seem

00:15:53.080 to be two camps.

00:15:53.860 There's one side

00:15:54.440 that says,

00:15:54.860 you know what,

00:15:55.300 we need to,

00:15:56.520 you know,

00:15:56.860 get into a street fight

00:15:57.760 with them

00:15:58.200 and file lawsuits

00:15:59.120 and put them on defense.

00:16:00.740 And then there's,

00:16:01.460 I'd say,

00:16:01.720 the more romantic notion

00:16:02.980 that this is all something

00:16:04.140 we need to have out in culture

00:16:05.400 and we need to shift the debate

00:16:07.120 and shift the narrative.

00:16:07.880 And then there are probably

00:16:08.460 some hybrid positions.

00:16:09.680 But where do you,

00:16:11.440 I'll ask it in two ways actually.

00:16:13.280 Where did you,

00:16:14.140 before a month ago,

00:16:16.140 view the importance

00:16:17.360 of the fight

00:16:17.940 and where do you view it now?

00:16:19.380 I see it as a hybrid

00:16:20.960 because there seems

00:16:22.680 to be something inherent

00:16:23.800 in the West

00:16:24.860 which is a belief

00:16:26.100 in a justice system, right?

00:16:27.640 You believe someone wronged you,

00:16:29.560 they took something from you,

00:16:30.700 you,

00:16:31.140 we all are encapsulated

00:16:32.640 in this,

00:16:33.900 in this belief

00:16:34.720 that righteousness works,

00:16:36.400 that justice works.

00:16:38.480 And it's very scary

00:16:39.740 when you realize

00:16:40.600 that that's not always the case.

00:16:42.100 So I think,

00:16:43.240 on one hand,

00:16:44.160 the legal aspect

00:16:44.940 is there for a reason.

00:16:46.280 You look at

00:16:46.960 the Covington school boy,

00:16:49.420 the Nick Sandman,

00:16:50.320 I believe his name is,

00:16:51.120 who essentially

00:16:52.440 had his life ruined

00:16:53.840 over wearing a hat

00:16:55.100 and standing there.

00:16:57.320 And he sued

00:16:58.360 and he won.

00:16:59.080 I think he won

00:16:59.620 a ridiculous amount of money.

00:17:01.880 So,

00:17:02.840 on a legal aspect,

00:17:04.000 that sets a precedent

00:17:04.920 that is very important

00:17:05.980 that tells these radicals

00:17:07.760 there are consequences

00:17:08.820 to what you do.

00:17:09.640 Not just cultural consequences,

00:17:11.320 but real consequences.

00:17:12.500 So on that end,

00:17:14.400 you know,

00:17:14.800 I am suing the mayor.

00:17:16.180 I am suing this outlet.

00:17:17.420 Can I sue everyone?

00:17:18.480 Well, no.

00:17:19.120 Because I'm not,

00:17:19.780 you know,

00:17:20.860 it's unfortunate

00:17:21.940 that parts of the right

00:17:24.600 have made it

00:17:26.620 extremely commonplace

00:17:28.120 to just sue everyone

00:17:28.860 you don't like, right?

00:17:29.700 I mean,

00:17:29.860 even Trump himself

00:17:30.720 is just,

00:17:31.200 I'm just going to sue you.

00:17:33.080 The reality is that

00:17:34.340 part of justifying yourself

00:17:36.360 and clearing your name

00:17:37.200 is saying,

00:17:38.240 I am willing to die

00:17:39.260 on this hill.

00:17:40.360 I am going to die

00:17:41.120 on this hill in court

00:17:42.000 and I'm going to go

00:17:42.560 all the way,

00:17:43.020 let's do a discovery,

00:17:43.940 let's do everything

00:17:44.400 we have to do.

00:17:44.920 So that's one aspect.

00:17:46.200 But the other aspect

00:17:47.100 is cultural,

00:17:47.800 which is having

00:17:49.240 discussions about this,

00:17:50.400 which is reporting on it,

00:17:52.040 which is talking about

00:17:53.140 what it does

00:17:53.780 to people's lives

00:17:54.660 and how it doesn't

00:17:56.500 just happen

00:17:57.060 to the odd,

00:17:58.580 crazy person

00:17:59.460 that is,

00:18:00.000 well,

00:18:00.160 he's crazy,

00:18:00.920 he's radical,

00:18:01.920 he'll get cancelled

00:18:02.820 but it'll never come to me.

00:18:04.380 I'm in the middle,

00:18:05.680 right?

00:18:06.520 I mean,

00:18:06.960 we're at a point now

00:18:07.800 where even some leftists

00:18:09.720 are getting cancelled,

00:18:10.800 right?

00:18:11.000 Like,

00:18:11.480 it's come to a point

00:18:13.700 where as a culture

00:18:14.540 we need to have

00:18:15.200 a discussion

00:18:15.800 in terms of

00:18:17.280 what are the consequences

00:18:18.740 of what we've done

00:18:19.800 in the past

00:18:20.320 and furthermore,

00:18:21.600 how do we interpret things?

00:18:23.220 Because we talk about

00:18:24.180 mistakes made in the past.

00:18:26.120 How many of these cancellations

00:18:27.600 were really mistakes?

00:18:28.960 How many of these cancellations

00:18:30.220 were just

00:18:30.680 well-coordinated attacks?

00:18:33.160 Because what is

00:18:33.700 cancelled culture?

00:18:34.500 The left says,

00:18:35.220 well,

00:18:36.780 can't,

00:18:37.100 you know,

00:18:37.340 free speech

00:18:37.880 but not free from consequences.

00:18:39.480 It's consequences culture.

00:18:41.040 They've actually,

00:18:42.080 to use the left's terms,

00:18:43.400 they've appropriated

00:18:44.720 right-wing rhetoric

00:18:46.340 on that

00:18:47.640 because that was always

00:18:48.740 what conservatives

00:18:49.380 used to say

00:18:49.940 of,

00:18:50.140 well,

00:18:50.300 you know what,

00:18:50.680 it's the marketplace

00:18:51.220 of ideas

00:18:51.940 but they're not actually

00:18:53.660 committed to that.

00:18:55.100 They're only committed

00:18:55.860 to that in that narrow way

00:18:56.960 when it serves

00:18:57.500 their interest to cancel.

00:18:58.580 Yeah.

00:18:58.920 Well,

00:18:59.240 in this case,

00:19:00.080 they're saying,

00:19:00.560 oh,

00:19:00.760 you know,

00:19:01.480 so much for the free speech guy

00:19:03.300 you're going to sue

00:19:03.920 for defamation.

00:19:04.880 It's like,

00:19:05.700 there are consequences

00:19:06.680 to defaming someone.

00:19:07.720 And that is part

00:19:08.500 of the marketplace of ideas.

00:19:09.580 Exactly.

00:19:10.000 There's an expectation

00:19:11.380 of honesty

00:19:12.260 and if you aren't living

00:19:13.700 up to that end

00:19:14.420 of the bargain,

00:19:15.400 that moral contract

00:19:16.440 of honest speech,

00:19:17.420 you can be sued for it.

00:19:18.560 Exactly.

00:19:19.240 So it's funny

00:19:19.840 that they say,

00:19:20.340 well,

00:19:20.420 it's consequences culture.

00:19:21.660 You did that.

00:19:22.660 You deserve

00:19:23.220 the consequences now.

00:19:24.780 And it's,

00:19:26.100 again,

00:19:26.780 most of the time,

00:19:27.560 sometimes people

00:19:28.480 deserve to get cancelled

00:19:29.900 or whatever.

00:19:30.440 You know,

00:19:30.620 you look at Woody Allen

00:19:31.520 who's in the news

00:19:32.260 right now.

00:19:32.680 Yeah.

00:19:32.820 But in this case,

00:19:35.240 it is something

00:19:35.780 that is manufactured

00:19:36.920 by very few people

00:19:38.480 who are intentionally

00:19:39.280 trying to make

00:19:40.240 the perception

00:19:42.080 that everyone hates you.

00:19:44.400 Twitter is not real life.

00:19:45.920 No.

00:19:46.200 If you go to 90%

00:19:47.480 of the people on the street

00:19:48.440 and do that gesture,

00:19:49.380 they're going to say

00:19:49.800 that means okay.

00:19:51.120 If we talk about

00:19:52.000 the hat for a moment,

00:19:53.220 75 million people

00:19:54.620 voted for that hat.

00:19:56.440 So it's not just

00:19:57.840 a matter of having

00:19:58.640 a discussion on

00:19:59.980 how do we punish people

00:20:01.300 retroactively

00:20:02.020 for their past mistakes.

00:20:03.820 It's how do we realize

00:20:05.680 as a culture

00:20:06.420 that a lot of the time

00:20:08.240 they weren't mistakes.

00:20:09.780 A lot of the time

00:20:10.520 things that happened

00:20:11.620 in the past

00:20:12.160 were just not really

00:20:13.520 that big of a deal

00:20:14.700 in the grand scale.

00:20:16.740 Like,

00:20:16.960 why are we allowing

00:20:17.660 very few people

00:20:18.480 to coordinate

00:20:19.180 and destroy someone?

00:20:21.260 To some degree,

00:20:22.200 cancel culture

00:20:22.780 is an ancient

00:20:23.560 sort of thing.

00:20:24.840 You look at

00:20:25.300 Socrates,

00:20:26.200 who has,

00:20:26.560 you know,

00:20:26.800 taken...

00:20:27.680 Human history

00:20:28.660 is mobs

00:20:30.700 destroying someone,

00:20:32.260 right?

00:20:32.520 The greatest stories

00:20:33.400 in history are that.

00:20:34.380 It's the psychology

00:20:35.380 of the mob.

00:20:36.700 So Twitter's not

00:20:37.360 entirely new,

00:20:38.100 but the internet,

00:20:38.840 unfortunately,

00:20:39.420 has brought out

00:20:40.160 the worst in some of us.

00:20:41.720 So, yes,

00:20:43.140 you've got to do

00:20:43.620 the legal aspect

00:20:44.280 to save, you know,

00:20:45.260 your livelihood,

00:20:46.320 but at the same time,

00:20:48.300 we need to have

00:20:49.040 an open discussion

00:20:49.940 not only about

00:20:50.820 the past,

00:20:52.140 but the reality

00:20:53.100 that very few people

00:20:54.380 are coordinating

00:20:55.020 to destroy people. 0.65

00:20:56.720 Angelo Isidoro,

00:20:57.800 host of Cancel This

00:20:59.280 on the Post-Millennial,

00:21:00.560 and I'll say

00:21:01.360 Survivor of the Cancel Mob

00:21:02.660 because you're still

00:21:03.220 standing and you're

00:21:04.060 fighting back.

00:21:04.580 Thank you for chatting

00:21:05.180 about this.

00:21:05.640 Thank you for having me.

00:21:06.420 Thanks for listening

00:21:07.260 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:08.800 Support the program

00:21:09.520 by donating to

00:21:10.320 True North

00:21:10.760 at www.tnc.news.

00:21:13.920 The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:26.120 Bye.

00:21:26.760 Thank you for listening

00:21:31.540 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:35.220 I'll see you in the mix

Juno News - March 02, 2021

Podcaster cancelled for flashing an ＂OK＂ sign fights back

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