Juno News - Politicizing a Tragedy

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.740 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:13.100 Coming up, how governments are unleashing a snitch culture across Canada,

00:00:17.720 a lack of transparency from the RCMP,

00:00:20.200 and does reporting a killer's name give them too much notoriety?

00:00:26.060 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 First they came for the non-essential businesses,

00:00:35.460 and now even the essential ones you have to ration your access to.

00:00:39.800 Grocery shopping, which has become the highlight of most people's weeks,

00:00:43.680 is now under attack in a way,

00:00:46.120 as the union representing grocery store employees is saying

00:00:49.300 that you should only be allowed to take one trip per week

00:00:52.280 and have one person for your household go to the store.

00:00:55.100 And they say that shouldn't just be an advisory thing,

00:00:58.280 but actually the law.

00:01:00.000 This is a story in CBC News.

00:01:02.860 Western Canada's largest private sector union,

00:01:05.740 the United Food and Commercial Workers 401,

00:01:08.520 which has 32,000 members,

00:01:10.760 says governments should bring in regulations

00:01:12.440 that allow only one person per family in a store at a time,

00:01:16.340 and people should only be allowed to go once a week.

00:01:18.960 So if you're making a big pot roast or whatever,

00:01:21.480 or you are cooking, you know, chicken Parmesan,

00:01:23.980 and you forget to buy the Parmesan,

00:01:26.340 you can't just run back to the grocery store.

00:01:28.180 You have to go to another grocery store.

00:01:31.540 And I'm assuming this legislation wouldn't span all grocery stores,

00:01:34.960 but who knows?

00:01:35.520 I mean, if you're going to regulate how often people can go grocery shopping,

00:01:39.960 certainly you are.

00:01:42.040 I can't believe it.

00:01:43.540 Look, unions have a place,

00:01:46.200 and in some cases you have to really look hard to find what that place is.

00:01:51.600 But this policy proposal, I find asinine,

00:01:55.460 because, yeah, grocery stores have a bit of mayhem to them now.

00:01:58.840 There's no denying that.

00:02:00.240 But adding a law that makes it like you have to beg permission from the government

00:02:05.220 to go to the store is not going to make things better.

00:02:08.200 It's going to make things worse.

00:02:10.120 Because I find, in my experiences,

00:02:12.240 like I said, grocery shopping now the highlight of my week.

00:02:14.680 Now, that was, I think, probably the case before the pandemic some weeks,

00:02:18.140 but especially now.

00:02:19.800 And sometimes it is a very different experience than other times.

00:02:25.980 So sometimes you go in and it's pretty quiet and pretty calm.

00:02:29.300 I went in last week and I learned that the toilet paper shortage is apparently over

00:02:33.400 because it was just, you know, aisles and aisles and aisles,

00:02:35.940 or one long aisle, I guess, full of toilet paper,

00:02:38.740 and no one seemed to care anymore.

00:02:40.500 So that part's good, at least.

00:02:41.920 But they have these arrows that are on the ground,

00:02:44.640 and I'm assuming that a lot of other stores have these

00:02:46.760 where there's a right way and a wrong way to go down the onion aisle now

00:02:50.880 or to go down other aisles.

00:02:53.020 And the problem with this is that I don't think, like,

00:02:55.680 the person who did the arrows really cared what they were doing

00:02:58.600 at the one grocery store nearby.

00:03:00.720 I think they were basically just putting down,

00:03:03.820 I think they were tossing a coin, basically.

00:03:06.000 They go to an aisle and say,

00:03:07.440 all right, is it this way or this way?

00:03:08.980 They flip a coin, and oh, it's this way.

00:03:10.380 Because at a certain point, there are only arrows that are going one direction.

00:03:14.660 So, like, you can't backtrack at all.

00:03:17.300 But it's not even like you have the ability to do, like, a full lap around.

00:03:21.380 There's a point where you pretty much get boxed into the dog food aisle.

00:03:25.380 And let me say, I mean, we may have been pretty desperate at a certain point,

00:03:28.400 but I hadn't gotten to there yet where I needed all the dog food.

00:03:31.300 So I had to, like, quickly wait until no one was looking

00:03:33.880 and dart the wrong direction from the arrow.

00:03:36.440 It's like, you know, if you're going down one of those one-way streets in Toronto

00:03:39.280 in the middle of the night and no one's there,

00:03:40.680 you just, I would never advise doing that.

00:03:43.240 In any case, so the arrow thing, people are going along with.

00:03:46.920 But sometimes, again, people are just minding their own business.

00:03:49.660 I saw people get into a fight over the arrows.

00:03:52.520 And it wasn't a huge fight.

00:03:53.940 It wasn't, like, they weren't coming to blows over the jalapenos. 0.98

00:03:57.160 But what was happening was, actually, they weren't even buying jalapenos.

00:04:00.040 So forget the jalapenos.

00:04:01.520 But someone had basically gone down the right way, the right way.

00:04:05.920 And then they realized they forgot something.

00:04:07.820 So they walked back, and then there was some guy about to turn into that aisle

00:04:11.600 that, you know, started pointing to the arrow.

00:04:13.520 And then they started, you know, swearing at each other.

00:04:15.840 And eventually, they both went the wrong way,

00:04:17.660 which I found rather poetic as a resolution to the fight.

00:04:20.620 The one guy just got out of the aisle altogether,

00:04:22.620 and the other guy did his thing and then got out himself.

00:04:25.640 But I don't like when we start distrusting each other as much.

00:04:30.400 And I know I joked about it in the past show,

00:04:32.600 of the paranoia that you tend to feel in this climate.

00:04:35.880 But when you start to take it out on other people who are not doing anything all that wrong,

00:04:42.580 you really are not going in a good place in society.

00:04:45.620 And it's municipalities, provincial governments, federal government that has really emboldened this idea.

00:04:51.240 You look at Toronto, which has launched in the past week its snitch line.

00:04:55.400 And they don't call it that, but an online system where residents can report issues of COVID-19 non-compliance,

00:05:01.960 including individuals not self-isolating and operation of a non-essential business and construction site.

00:05:07.780 So what they're saying here is, yeah, if you just see someone that's not following the rules,

00:05:11.700 you just let us know.

00:05:12.740 If they're not self-isolating, you just let us know and we'll investigate.

00:05:16.300 And Toronto's trying to say that it's, oh, it's only just investigating these things

00:05:21.320 and they're informing people and educating people.

00:05:24.140 But what they're doing is inviting people to snitch on others.

00:05:28.640 And you know there are a lot of busybodies that are looking for anyone that just slightly deviates,

00:05:34.620 anyone who just walks the wrong way down the arrowed grocery store line,

00:05:38.220 not people that are really taking it seriously and saying,

00:05:40.920 yeah, that house party at Joe's house was probably a problem.

00:05:44.420 Or yeah, that construction site, I didn't think that was supposed to be up and running

00:05:47.680 and that's looking a little unsafe.

00:05:49.480 But when it's turning people against each other and you start to see that manifest itself,

00:05:55.440 for example, in the grocery store, we're not at a place in society that we should be celebrating.

00:06:00.960 And I would say further than that, we're not at a place in society that is all that sustainable.

00:06:06.020 And I'd say the useless bureaucrat of the week is the bylaw enforcement officer in Ottawa,

00:06:12.960 who it's always Ottawa, have you noticed this, that almost all of these stories are coming from Ottawa.

00:06:18.160 So take a look in the mirror, Ottawa, a 17-year-old find for playing basketball alone.

00:06:25.460 Now, this story actually is insane.

00:06:27.960 William Vogelsang was playing basketball alone in Ottawa at the Eva James Memorial Community Centre.

00:06:33.580 I don't know the community centre, but they have a basketball net and that's all that Mr. Vogelsang cared about.

00:06:38.860 He was alone playing basketball.

00:06:40.580 He thought that he was within the law.

00:06:43.100 He didn't think he was being a little rebel here.

00:06:45.660 He thought that, yes, I'm not in a group.

00:06:47.800 It's not a mass game.

00:06:49.020 I'm not doing a tournament.

00:06:50.160 This isn't March Madness in April in a pandemic.

00:06:52.780 So he was playing basketball alone.

00:06:55.180 He's dribbling, juggling, tossing, shooting.

00:06:59.280 I don't know what people do in basketball, but he was doing all of those things, presumably,

00:07:02.520 because I think he's better at it than me.

00:07:04.600 And then two bylaw officers come to him.

00:07:07.840 So he's social distanced.

00:07:09.680 He's isolated.

00:07:11.140 Two bylaw officers come into his space.

00:07:14.140 Now, I don't know if they were speaking moistly or not.

00:07:16.460 And yes, I'm going to say that in every show from now until the end of time, probably.

00:07:20.120 But they came and said, you're not allowed to be there.

00:07:22.360 And he said, OK, sorry, I'm going to leave.

00:07:25.300 Now, I would say that that in and of itself was the end of the story or should have been.

00:07:30.060 But oh, no, the officers insisted they'd have to issue him a ticket because him playing

00:07:35.960 basketball alone is just not allowed in Canada in 2020.

00:07:40.040 He's never been in trouble.

00:07:41.460 He said it's a big incident.

00:07:42.640 He was embarrassed.

00:07:43.940 And the irony is the reason he said he was embarrassed is because people were walking by,

00:07:48.600 walking their dogs, watching this.

00:07:50.560 They were fine.

00:07:51.540 But him playing basketball, that was not fine.

00:07:54.240 And then where things got tricky is the bylaw officer demanded to see his ID because he was

00:08:00.980 just out playing basketball.

00:08:02.220 He didn't have it.

00:08:03.380 You need to provide identification under the emergency order that's in place in Ontario.

00:08:08.080 So he said, my mother can text me a picture.

00:08:10.720 My mother can bring it herself. 0.96

00:08:12.520 But instead, the officers called Ottawa police who arrived 20 minutes later.

00:08:20.220 The ticket, by the way, $700.

00:08:22.300 But let's walk through what happened here.

00:08:27.160 17-year-old playing basketball alone.

00:08:29.420 No one harmed.

00:08:30.480 No one threatened.

00:08:31.580 No one endangered.

00:08:32.860 No one has the virus but him.

00:08:34.600 If he has it, if he doesn't, no one has it at all.

00:08:37.200 So let's say that that is all that's happening because it is happening.

00:08:41.240 Two bylaw officers enter the mix.

00:08:43.180 We've tripled the number of people on the basketball field.

00:08:46.140 So we went from one to three.

00:08:47.580 And now all of a sudden we call police because we need to get them in there to make sure the 17-year-old is who he says he is.

00:08:54.080 You add probably two more officers there.

00:08:56.560 And now we're up to five people.

00:08:58.840 Now we're at the point where we're almost illegal as far as a gathering in Ontario goes.

00:09:03.840 So him doing nothing but playing basketball by himself, you multiply it to have five people there.

00:09:10.300 And that's the government's answer for endangering other people.

00:09:14.180 It's just cram five people on a basketball court.

00:09:16.680 Give them a ticket for $700.

00:09:18.660 Every single one of you should.

00:09:20.280 Actually, no.

00:09:20.740 I don't want to take aim at the police because they were just doing what the bylaw officers committed to.

00:09:24.940 But the bylaw officers, you should absolutely be ashamed of yourself.

00:09:28.580 There is no excuse for that whatsoever.

00:09:30.420 So this is what's happening in Canada now.

00:09:33.760 And if anyone can say this is what's saving lives, I think there is some oceanfront property in Saskatchewan I'm going to sell you.

00:09:40.920 Because when we look at the things that are happening as far as flattening the curve and the relatively hopeful and optimistic numbers we're seeing in Ontario's updates and other updates,

00:09:52.200 yeah, a lot of these are because of social distancing measures.

00:09:55.600 People that are staying home, people that are taking things seriously, people that are not having house parties, people that are not going to the office.

00:10:03.200 These measures are not what is solving the problem, though.

00:10:08.880 It's not ticketing teens for playing basketball.

00:10:11.740 That's not what's flattening the curve.

00:10:13.260 It's not ticketing a family for rollerblading.

00:10:15.720 It's not telling a dad he can't play with his son in an empty park.

00:10:19.220 These are not the things that are solving the problem.

00:10:21.740 And I fear that governments are going to turn to all of these and say, OK, what we're doing is working.

00:10:27.560 So we need to keep doing everything that we're doing instead of backing up and saying, all right, well, this was making an impact.

00:10:34.520 This one probably wasn't.

00:10:35.820 This was just boosting our revenue.

00:10:37.720 This was just letting bylaw officers feel like they had something to do.

00:10:40.780 This is not what we can say with all honesty is happening here, because these cases are at best doing nothing.

00:10:51.700 At worst, they're actually making it worse because you have all the bylaw and police that are coming to enforce these things.

00:10:58.820 And, you know, the rationale every time I say this, I get people to say, oh, but, you know, if one person plays basketball, then all of a sudden 10 people will.

00:11:04.900 Fine.

00:11:05.260 Go after it when 10 people are.

00:11:07.000 When William Vogelsang is joined by three, four people, then you can have a discussion about it.

00:11:13.620 But when it's just him alone, who's causing the problem?

00:11:18.000 The bylaw officers are.

00:11:20.040 There is no problem inerrant in what's happening here.

00:11:23.740 So I'm going to just move away from this for a moment.

00:11:27.060 But in all seriousness, check yourself if you think that these people around the country that are trying to cope with their quarantine,

00:11:34.700 that are getting out and doing some exercise, if you think that they are at all in the wrong here, do check yourself.

00:11:40.440 When we come back, more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:11:44.380 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:11:51.560 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:11:53.680 I want to shift gears here to something that is not coronavirus related and something that, again, I mentioned on Monday's show just breaks my heart.

00:12:02.060 And that's the horrific, horrific attacks that took place in Nova Scotia on the weekend.

00:12:07.520 Even from when we talked about it briefly on Monday, the death toll has risen again.

00:12:12.580 22 people just senselessly killed by someone who was pure evil.

00:12:18.440 I mean, there's no way about it to say anything other than that.

00:12:21.960 He was pure evil.

00:12:23.520 And I wish that we could just focus on the victims.

00:12:29.360 I honestly do.

00:12:30.300 I wish that we didn't have to have a discussion that's bigger than what happened in honoring the victims, honoring the sacrifice of Constable Heidi Stevenson,

00:12:39.420 honoring those whose lives were taken by this man.

00:12:43.580 But the government of Canada, Justin Trudeau, Bill Blair, have decided they want to make this about politics.

00:12:50.280 So I have no choice but to respond by having a political discussion about this.

00:12:57.340 And the big battleground that I see here is going to be on gun control.

00:13:02.140 Justin Trudeau, the day after Gabriel Wartman, the gunman, was killed, Justin Trudeau was talking about gun control.

00:13:09.920 He had a press conference on Monday and on Tuesday as well.

00:13:13.820 And in both was talking about gun control and said that, you know, the government was on the verge of putting more gun control in anyway.

00:13:20.200 And then the pandemic happened.

00:13:21.720 But now he's saying we're looking for the earliest opportunity, the best opportunity.

00:13:26.280 So, yeah, the bodies aren't even cold yet.

00:13:28.540 And Trudeau is already talking about gun control, which means that anyone that is resistant to the government's gun control agenda has to step in and say,

00:13:37.760 well, but wait, and I don't want to be doing this.

00:13:40.540 And I truly mean this.

00:13:42.220 I don't want to be having a political discussion on the back of this tragedy.

00:13:47.380 But I have to because I refuse to let the government use the tragedy for political cover.

00:13:53.100 And when they are saying it is justification for this, and make no mistake, Justin Trudeau is saying that.

00:14:00.060 And here's a clip of that in just a moment that I'll play.

00:14:03.240 When they're saying that this is evidence of why we need more gun control, we need to look at that evidence that they're basing this off of.

00:14:12.520 So that's a big assumption there.

00:14:14.060 That's assuming, that's suggesting that what Trudeau wants to do with guns in Canada would have stopped this from happening.

00:14:22.640 That's saying that if only the liberals had put their legislation forward earlier, then this would have been something that would have been prevented and preventable.

00:14:31.060 And to say that, you have to be darn sure you know the facts of the case.

00:14:35.540 And right now, police don't even know the type of guns, the number of guns that were used.

00:14:40.980 At the time, Justin Trudeau said that police had a death toll in mind that was lower than the actual one.

00:14:46.860 They were looking at it was 15 crime zines, and then they upped that to 16 crime zines at least.

00:14:52.680 So police are saying they don't even know the details.

00:14:55.700 And some of the details they do know, they aren't saying.

00:14:59.280 One of those is a question that may seem insignificant to you, but I'll explain why it's important.

00:15:05.340 And that is whether the shooter, Gabriel Wartman, had a firearms license.

00:15:10.120 Now, I'm a gun owner.

00:15:11.560 I know there are a lot of gun owners that tune into this show.

00:15:13.900 If you are a Canadian citizen and you want to own guns, you can.

00:15:17.580 You have to get a possession and acquisition license from the government.

00:15:22.180 Now, if you have that, there are still terms and conditions and restrictions and various classifications.

00:15:27.680 But you have to have that.

00:15:28.760 That little card is the thing that makes it so you can legally buy and legally possess firearms in Canada.

00:15:35.340 We don't know if the shooter had one of those.

00:15:38.640 And that means that we don't know if the guns that he used were illegal or legal as far as his ownership of them goes.

00:15:45.240 And this is a question that neither Bill Blair nor Justin Trudeau are prepared to answer.

00:15:52.620 I'm going to play a little montage here of Justin Trudeau attempting to not actually not even attempting to answer and then of Bill Blair fielding the question.

00:16:03.440 And I'm just going to play them together because in neither do you actually get anything substantive.

00:16:07.720 Minister, when you were talking about the gun control legislation, you brought up the tragedy in Nova Scotia.

00:16:12.720 I wanted to know if you've been briefed on what kind of gun or guns were used in Nova Scotia.

00:16:17.200 Do we know that they were legal?

00:16:18.640 And based on that, how would your proposed gun control legislation have potentially prevented the shooting?

00:16:24.620 There is still a tremendous investigation going on by the RCMP right now.

00:16:31.280 There are many, many different sites, many different questions that a lot of people have.

00:16:36.560 And I'm going to trust the RCMP on releasing information as they feel it is important to.

00:16:45.160 In regard to the firearm license, I wouldn't think that anything investigative would hinge on that.

00:16:54.640 If you could release, tell us whether or not that individual did have or did not have a firearm license.

00:17:04.740 Tim, as we've indicated, the RCMP are in the earliest hours and days of this investigation, and it's a complex one.

00:17:11.480 And I think it's quite appropriate for them to be careful about the release of information until they've had the opportunity to verify it and confirm it.

00:17:19.920 And so it is, I think, inappropriate.

00:17:22.100 And the Commissioner would quite naturally be very reluctant to reveal details of that investigation until it is complete.

00:17:28.160 And so I would urge Canadians to be patient with the RCMP as they do a very difficult but very important job for us in getting all the facts,

00:17:36.200 in confirming their evidence, making sure that all of the steps to preserve that evidence are taken.

00:17:42.940 Canadians deserve answers.

00:17:44.660 The families and the victims of these terrible crimes deserve accurate answers.

00:17:48.840 And so let us be patient while the RCMP conducts their investigation, confirms their evidence,

00:17:54.520 and then I am absolutely confident they'll be transparent and forthcoming with that once that important work has been done.

00:18:01.140 I love that juxtaposition, because in the one, Justin Trudeau says,

00:18:05.900 all right, you know, we're not going to answer these questions.

00:18:08.120 We trust the RCMP.

00:18:09.400 And then in the next one, someone asked the RCMP Commissioner,

00:18:12.380 and Bill Blair decides to answer the question instead and doesn't even give an answer.

00:18:16.560 He just says, oh, what, you know, the Commissioner is thinking is...

00:18:19.280 So he mansplained.

00:18:20.260 Bill Blair actually mansplained to the RCMP Commissioner there, Brenda Luckey.

00:18:25.120 And in neither case do we get an answer.

00:18:27.620 Now, the reason that this is important is because there's no investigative tricks that you need to deploy

00:18:32.880 to figure out if someone had a firearms license.

00:18:35.740 That's one of the first things police know about someone when they run their name in the system.

00:18:40.380 If you get pulled over for speeding, police know if you have a firearms license.

00:18:43.900 If they come to your home because of a noise complaint, they know if you have a firearms license.

00:18:48.500 When there's a guy on the rampage and they have his name and they type it into their system,

00:18:52.360 they know if he has a firearms license.

00:18:54.480 So they know and just aren't saying.

00:18:58.680 So it's not one of these questions that the RCMP has to figure out long term.

00:19:02.780 No, this is an easy one that was answered in a few keystrokes.

00:19:06.000 They just aren't telling people.

00:19:07.800 They're refusing to say.

00:19:09.420 Now, a part of this may be that police are just erring on the side of silence,

00:19:14.640 which tends to be the role that RCMP plays.

00:19:18.340 It's silence until proven otherwise.

00:19:20.060 But it's also possible that the answer to this question is proving inconvenient or will prove inconvenient for the government.

00:19:28.120 Because Justin Trudeau, when he keeps saying that this is part of his commitment to advancing further restrictions,

00:19:34.200 he's effectively saying that he could have prevented this.

00:19:38.900 That's the inference in what Justin Trudeau is saying.

00:19:42.380 And Trudeau is still not saying, and neither is Bill Blair, the public safety minister,

00:19:47.220 whether they plan to use an order in council for their gun control or legislation that goes through Parliament.

00:19:52.500 Now, given the Liberals seem to have the backing of the other left-wing parties,

00:19:57.420 even if it goes through Parliament, it's likely to be passed.

00:20:00.140 But at least it could be investigated.

00:20:02.520 But when Trudeau says that word again,

00:20:04.980 tragic reminder of the fact that we need to do more to keep Canadians safe,

00:20:09.580 he is saying that we need more laws and more laws could have or would have stopped this.

00:20:15.640 So his trust in the RCMP seems to be moot at this point because he's making decisions

00:20:21.000 that go beyond the ones that police are making.

00:20:24.300 And Bill Blair, his whole thing of, oh, it's early days, we can't talk about this.

00:20:27.680 Why not?

00:20:28.500 Why not?

00:20:29.280 Now, again, you may think that I'm nitpicking here.

00:20:32.280 And I am.

00:20:33.020 I'm picking a very minute and minuscule detail of this to talk about.

00:20:37.680 But I think it's important to do that because lawmakers have left me no choice.

00:20:42.280 They've spared no time to politicize this tragedy.

00:20:45.980 They're cramming it into their pre-existing narrative that has nothing to do with saving

00:20:50.680 lives.

00:20:51.400 It has even less to do with the legacies of the victims of the Nova Scotia attack.

00:20:55.460 And they're doing this under the auspices of keeping Canadians safe.

00:20:59.840 And it is a farce.

00:21:01.100 It is a sham.

00:21:02.300 They are not keeping Canadians safe.

00:21:04.320 What they're trying to do is rationalize the already restrictive gun control measures

00:21:10.420 they want to put in place that go beyond already restrictive gun control measures that are

00:21:15.380 in place.

00:21:16.440 We already have strict gun control in Canada, which is why mass shootings, which is why attacks

00:21:22.600 like these are so rare in the first place in Canada.

00:21:26.320 You reach a point where it is safe to say that legislation is not the issue.

00:21:32.620 And remember, this guy had broken so many laws, not the least of which is murder, of course,

00:21:37.860 but impersonating a police officer, acquiring a police uniform.

00:21:41.260 He got his hands on a police car that looked nearly identical to active duty RCMP cruisers.

00:21:47.400 He was prepared and committed.

00:21:50.120 And I don't say that to give him any commendation, but to say that if you think something as simple

00:21:54.980 as a regulation would have stopped this, you are lulling yourself into a false sense of

00:22:00.300 security.

00:22:01.240 And it may be easy to think that.

00:22:03.600 It may be easy to believe that or comfortable to believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

00:22:09.560 And if he was illegally in possession of firearms, no amount of gun control would have done anything.

00:22:15.320 Now, I want to get to some of the facts here because I've seen some misinformation about

00:22:20.160 this.

00:22:20.780 There was a story in the Toronto Star and also Rebel News picked it up that Wartman was banned

00:22:26.380 from owning firearms.

00:22:27.960 Now, this is true and not true.

00:22:30.600 So please listen, because I have so many people, I wrote a column about this and I had so many

00:22:34.820 people that didn't even read the column.

00:22:36.260 They just responded with some detail from another story that wasn't mine.

00:22:40.240 Yes, in 2002, he was convicted of assault, but he was granted a conditional discharge,

00:22:45.440 which means he had a number of conditions he had to meet.

00:22:48.740 And nine months later, those conditions were lifted.

00:22:52.900 That was the term of his conditional discharge, nine months.

00:22:56.480 And those terms were, yes, that he was, quote, not to own, possess or carry a weapon, ammunition

00:23:02.340 or explosive substance.

00:23:03.880 So that ban would have been over by October 2002, which was almost 18 years ago.

00:23:12.320 Now, that doesn't answer the question of whether he had a firearms license now.

00:23:17.660 It does say that he was not banned now that we know of.

00:23:22.620 He may have had a different restriction, but for all accounts, it sounds like he had no

00:23:27.400 restrictions in place.

00:23:28.540 That doesn't mean he had a license, though.

00:23:30.820 So he was banned 18 years ago.

00:23:33.980 No evidence that he was banned now, which means he still may have been a legal gun owner.

00:23:39.520 And I'm not committing to a path that says he is or isn't.

00:23:42.560 I'm saying we need to get some transparency and we need to have politicians and police answering

00:23:48.300 these questions.

00:23:49.200 I'll take it from either, preferably police, given that when the blockades were happening

00:23:54.100 months ago, the liberals made this big show of, oh, we don't speak for police and we don't

00:23:58.340 answer questions that are meant for police and we don't direct police on what to do.

00:24:02.680 But then one question that touches on a government political priority to the RCMP commissioner

00:24:08.260 and Bill Blair swoops in and decides to answer.

00:24:11.360 So it's amazing that that firewall between police and politicians is only when it's convenient

00:24:17.920 to have a firewall there.

00:24:19.520 And once politicians want to be ordering them around, that firewall is completely gone.

00:24:24.800 So the RCMP said that Wartman had no criminal record, which is very likely because if he was

00:24:31.060 given a discharge, he would, as a matter of fact, have no criminal record right now.

00:24:36.240 Even if he did have a criminal record that was showing, so not something that was discharged

00:24:41.640 or pardoned or expunged, it's possible to get a firearms license.

00:24:46.380 It's very difficult.

00:24:47.660 You have to disclose it.

00:24:48.980 When they do your background check, they will see it.

00:24:52.040 But you have to go through some other steps and hurdles and it's not a guarantee.

00:24:56.300 Firearms ownership in Canada is not a political right.

00:25:00.700 It is granted. 0.84

00:25:01.800 It is a privilege.

00:25:02.600 And it's something that could be very easily revoked.

00:25:06.220 So all of this is to say that we don't know.

00:25:09.640 Anyone who says they know for sure that he did or didn't is probably wrong.

00:25:13.080 He wasn't banned, but that doesn't mean he was licensed.

00:25:16.440 And the reason this question is important is because this situation is being crammed into

00:25:21.380 a political narrative from Justin Trudeau and from the liberals.

00:25:25.360 And that's something that we need to discuss if they're going to bring this into the political

00:25:29.700 realm.

00:25:30.140 So if he did have a license, it would still reveal some cracks.

00:25:37.060 It would reveal a failure of the system in some way, potentially, or it would reveal that

00:25:45.060 we could look at aspects of the licensing for someone with a violent conviction to get a

00:25:50.780 license.

00:25:51.580 How did that happen?

00:25:52.580 And should it have happened?

00:25:53.860 And the answer is probably no.

00:25:55.240 But if he didn't have a license, it proves that the gun control

00:25:59.340 regime is entirely irrelevant.

00:26:02.680 So that's the thing.

00:26:03.520 I mean, either way, I don't think it changes too much the overall point here.

00:26:09.780 But it does make a difference as far as how the government decides it's going to attack

00:26:15.220 these things and how the government is going to go after them.

00:26:17.940 So if you're not a gun owner, it doesn't matter.

00:26:20.200 This is about due process.

00:26:21.520 And this is about government politicizing a tragedy and hijacking a tragedy for its own

00:26:26.380 political points.

00:26:27.240 But they're not even doing it with a backdrop of transparency.

00:26:31.580 When we come back, more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:26:34.620 I want to ask the media to avoid mentioning the name and showing the picture of the person

00:26:51.900 involved.

00:26:52.400 You just heard there, Justin Trudeau talking about the media and asking the media not to

00:27:13.500 report the name and identity of the Nova Scotia killer.

00:27:17.040 Now, this is something that as a person in media, I have a bit of an issue with, and

00:27:22.220 I'll talk about this in a couple of moments.

00:27:24.060 But it really does touch on a no notoriety campaign that's been going around mostly in

00:27:29.600 the United States for the last several years.

00:27:31.960 And the campaign that basically aims to take away the notoriety that the media tends to bestow

00:27:37.380 on the perpetrators of mass killings.

00:27:40.300 I want to talk about this with someone who had actually introduced me to this in the wake

00:27:44.260 of the Parkland shooting a couple of years back, and that is Professor Jacqueline Schildkraut.

00:27:49.100 She's the author of the book Mass Shootings, Media, Myths, and Realities, and a professor

00:27:54.100 at the State University of New York at Oswego in the Department of Criminal Justice.

00:27:58.840 Professor Schildkraut joins me.

00:28:00.260 Thank you so much for your time.

00:28:01.360 Really great to talk to you.

00:28:02.740 Of course.

00:28:03.200 Thank you so much for having me.

00:28:04.340 So the no notoriety campaign seems to be based on this idea that if you give killers fame,

00:28:12.340 it's going to embolden future killers.

00:28:14.740 Is that an accurate summary?

00:28:17.340 Yeah, for the most part.

00:28:18.600 I mean, if you think about it, when we look at, you know, these individuals, and certainly

00:28:22.440 in the case of the Nova Scotia shooter, it's, you know, still very premature.

00:28:26.020 We don't really know a lot about, you know, him in particular.

00:28:28.460 But a lot of these individuals who go out and create, or convict, sorry, a lot of these

00:28:34.520 individuals who go out and conduct these types of very public, you know, events or public

00:28:39.080 shootings will tell people in advance that they want to be famous and they want to have

00:28:43.700 their name in life.

00:28:45.040 And so it's sort of a twofold thing.

00:28:46.700 Certainly, we don't want to incentivize other individuals to go out and carry similar acts.

00:28:51.200 But at the same time, we don't want to reward people for doing something like what these

00:28:55.620 individuals are doing.

00:28:56.560 I guess the big challenge that I have with the, well, I guess there are two.

00:29:01.820 When a politician is asking the media to do it, that part of someone in the media doesn't

00:29:06.680 necessarily sit right with me.

00:29:08.380 But there is still a prerogative for media outlets themselves to come up with these policies

00:29:13.500 and guidelines.

00:29:14.560 I think we can look at some absolutely horrendous examples of media doing what I would say is

00:29:20.040 glamorizing.

00:29:20.940 I think that Rolling Stone cover from one of the Boston bombers a couple of years ago is

00:29:25.620 probably one of the more noteworthy examples of that.

00:29:28.460 But I guess what I would ask is, is there a way that the reporting can be done more respectfully

00:29:32.560 that doesn't need to manifest itself as a blanket ban, even if it's self-imposed on

00:29:39.160 reporting names?

00:29:41.240 Well, so I think that there's, you know, a couple of things to take into consideration.

00:29:44.400 Number one is that even the no notoriety campaign, which was started in the aftermath of the Aurora,

00:29:49.680 Colorado movie theater shooting, has never said complete blackout blanket, no names ever.

00:29:55.220 You know, there is an investment, you know, there is a value in reporting that as a fact.

00:29:59.400 But I think where the issue comes in and where no notoriety is really speaking from is you

00:30:04.640 can say it once in the beginning of the story and then simply refer to them as the perpetrator

00:30:08.880 to continue to name them over and over again or to put up their picture.

00:30:13.040 You know, that's where you're putting a face to the name.

00:30:16.260 And the reality is, is that you can still tell the who, what, when, where, why, and how

00:30:20.940 of a story without having to give somebody credit for doing something so horrific.

00:30:26.980 Yeah, I think that's actually a really important point, because a lot of the time when we see

00:30:32.040 these stories, a lot of like I would say media reporting tends to go down the killer, the shooter,

00:30:37.240 the perpetrator anyway.

00:30:38.440 So to do that with a bit more intentionality wouldn't be that much of a change, but it

00:30:43.700 would make a difference, it sounds like, in that overall notoriety that the killer is getting.

00:30:49.060 Well, you know, one of the things is, is that, you know, you have these individuals who are

00:30:53.400 relatively unknown people, and in many cases, completely unknown outside of their own social

00:30:58.180 circles.

00:30:58.920 And so what they're trying to do is they're trying to make sure that people know their name.

00:31:02.820 For instance, I grew up in the Parkland community, and our shooter, literally before he went

00:31:08.100 into the school, said, I want everybody to know my name, I want, you know, to be famous.

00:31:12.640 And lo and behold, that's exactly what happened.

00:31:15.580 There's nobody in this country, and probably the world, that doesn't know what his name

00:31:20.000 is.

00:31:20.560 And so if you remove just the identity component, where you're not giving them credit for something

00:31:25.580 like that, then that can be very helpful.

00:31:28.080 You can still say all of the facts of the case.

00:31:30.540 The perpetrator, for instance, in Parkland went into this building, he had this type of gun,

00:31:34.580 he did these actions, and this is how many people died, but you're not giving that individual

00:31:39.320 that, you know, that credit or that glory.

00:31:44.320 What's the view that you have on reporting things like backstory and history of killers?

00:31:51.060 Because I think a lot of the time, that's where, in some cases, coverage can look like

00:31:55.280 it's glamorizing or romanticizing a story.

00:31:58.180 And I don't think that's necessarily the intention of these things.

00:32:00.800 But do you think that there should be some holding back on reporting those life stories

00:32:06.860 of some of these people?

00:32:08.640 You know, I don't necessarily think that there needs to be.

00:32:11.800 You know, for me as a researcher, you know, because we don't have access to a lot of, you

00:32:16.720 know, investigatory documents, and oftentimes there's not as much available to the police

00:32:22.140 that there is to the media, which is always very interesting.

00:32:24.800 There is a value in having that information.

00:32:27.480 You know, if we understand what led up to, you know, zero point, then we can try and

00:32:34.920 identify opportunities for intervention in future incidents.

00:32:39.020 I think where it becomes a challenge for those of us in the no-notoriety camp is, number one,

00:32:45.440 the way in which it's presented.

00:32:46.940 You know, certainly this over-glamorization, kind of like you mentioned with the Boston Bomber,

00:32:50.740 like we don't need to know if they wore affliction t-shirts and had tousled hair kind of thing.

00:32:55.020 We just need to know the facts.

00:32:57.440 But also I think that there is such a over-emphasis on the shooter rather than also an equal

00:33:03.960 acknowledgement, at the very least equal acknowledgement, of the lives of the people

00:33:08.160 that they took.

00:33:09.420 And, you know, we tend to think about this one individual and all of the bad things that

00:33:13.300 they did, but there's not as much attention paid to all of the good that they took.

00:33:17.700 And, you know, we talk about victims as, you know, numbers, right?

00:33:21.820 Columbine, they're one of 13.

00:33:23.400 Parkland, they're one of 17.

00:33:25.000 Now in Nova Scotia, they're going to be one of 22 or whatever the final death toll ends

00:33:29.080 up being.

00:33:29.920 And the reality is that they're not one of anything.

00:33:32.520 They are humans.

00:33:33.380 They have stories.

00:33:34.480 And those stories also need to be told.

00:33:36.360 That's so key.

00:33:39.220 And I'm glad it's something you've done in your work as well.

00:33:42.100 And I know that it must be very difficult for you having to rehash some of these things.

00:33:45.920 But, you know, I've seen you mark anniversaries and bring victims names.

00:33:49.660 And for me, I mean, I have to admit that I get a bit ashamed when I look at some of these

00:33:53.780 victims that you talk about from cases going back years.

00:33:57.020 And I could tell you the shooter, but I couldn't name a single victim from any of these cases.

00:34:01.100 You know, it's really interesting.

00:34:04.040 After Parkland, which obviously for me is a very different sort of beast, if you will,

00:34:08.560 because it's where I'm from, I can remember being in a meeting with one of our task forces

00:34:13.640 here.

00:34:14.100 And there happened to be a reporter who's done a lot of stories for the New York Times.

00:34:18.040 And she just kept rattling on with the Aurora shooter's name.

00:34:22.520 And at that point, it was maybe a month out of the shooting.

00:34:24.580 So personally, on a personal level, I was very raw.

00:34:27.040 And I literally said to this room with like the most high-powered people in our city,

00:34:31.460 listen, we're on the fifth floor of this building.

00:34:33.080 I will bet you guys every penny in my bank account, go downstairs and ask anybody the

00:34:38.280 Parkland shooter's name.

00:34:39.300 And then ask him to name, ask that person to name one person that he killed.

00:34:43.440 Because they're not going to know, but I know all 17.

00:34:46.280 And I understand that my connection is different.

00:34:48.340 But, you know, even just learning about one victim, you know, I've gotten to not only,

00:34:52.720 you know, learn about them and share their stories online, but many of the families I've

00:34:57.000 connected with.

00:34:57.520 I've learned about Hannah Ehlers from Beaumont, California and her three amazing children and

00:35:02.580 her husband and, you know, all of these different people that had lives and had stories and people

00:35:07.680 who have lost loved ones in very, very horrific ways beyond their control.

00:35:11.640 When you look at that no notoriety campaign, if more media outlets and individuals adopt this,

00:35:19.600 is there a risk that it could have an inverse effect where shooters that do want fame realize

00:35:24.540 they have to up their game and be the worst and the deadliest and go so far that they would

00:35:31.040 then get the notoriety they seek?

00:35:32.800 That's a really interesting question.

00:35:36.580 I think that, you know, we're sort of already seeing an element of that because they do study

00:35:42.460 one another.

00:35:43.500 And certainly as my research has shown, you know, the media blankedly, of course, we used

00:35:48.800 one source, but there tends to be a greater emphasis, even just in the amount of coverage

00:35:55.000 or the placement of coverage of those shootings that are more lethal.

00:35:59.640 You know, if somebody killed two people, that's not going to be covered the way Las Vegas was

00:36:05.200 with 58 people or now 59 people, you know, and same with Parkland, you know, had 17 people.

00:36:12.460 But earlier that year, the shooting in Marshall County, Kentucky had two people.

00:36:17.040 They weren't talked about any which way the same.

00:36:19.220 And so, you know, I think that we're already seeing that element.

00:36:22.800 So I don't know that removing that incentive would really change things one way or another,

00:36:27.920 because if the practice was we're going to limit the name no matter how many people you

00:36:31.800 kill, you know, certainly that might just blankedly work.

00:36:36.360 I mean, you know, I hope.

00:36:38.500 Do you find that all of these shooters really are very similar to one another or is every shooter

00:36:44.980 created differently?

00:36:45.980 I think every shooter is created differently in many respects, but there also are similarities

00:36:52.080 and the similarities come more within the way in which they go from, you know, seemingly

00:36:58.640 normal person to mass killer.

00:37:00.840 There is a model out there from Dr.

00:37:05.040 Reed Malloy, who is a preeminent scholar in this field, and it's called the Pathway to

00:37:09.340 Violence Model.

00:37:10.100 And basically, if you look at, you know, each case, while there may be differences in terms

00:37:14.620 of, you know, social or demographic characteristics, the general trajectory is the same.

00:37:20.140 They all start with some type of a grievance, whether it's perceived or real, you know, something

00:37:24.640 really happened, like they lost their job, or they think they're bullied, or they think

00:37:28.100 they're ostracized, or, you know, whatever the case may be.

00:37:31.720 And at some point after they're sitting there, you know, kind of festering on it, they make

00:37:35.380 a decision that they're going to exact revenge against that grievance in a very specific

00:37:39.900 way.

00:37:40.820 And so then, you know, their pre-attack preparations tend to, again, follow the same patterns in

00:37:46.020 terms of weapons gathering and probing and breaching into locations and seeing what they're

00:37:50.480 going to do and their logistical planning.

00:37:52.460 And all of these different steps along this pathway, which, again, we learn about through

00:37:57.320 the way in which their backstories are told, allows us to identify opportunities for intervention

00:38:03.780 or for a way to de-escalate it before it becomes a full-blown shooting.

00:38:09.140 In Nova Scotia, of course, I think the day after this shooting ended, we already had politicians

00:38:14.460 talking about gun control, which in the Canadian context is already very strict.

00:38:18.620 So it's not as simple as linking it to, you know, how you might see a response in some

00:38:23.400 American jurisdictions.

00:38:25.000 Do you think it is too simplistic when oftentimes people focus on one aspect after one of these

00:38:30.780 shootings?

00:38:32.040 Oh, absolutely.

00:38:32.680 You know, when we talk about mass shootings, there are a lot of things that all kind of

00:38:38.120 go into play with it.

00:38:39.880 You know, there's a lot of factors, and they all happen to converge at precisely one, you

00:38:45.640 know, point in time.

00:38:46.820 You know, certainly there are people who will argue, well, if there were no guns, there would

00:38:51.000 be no shootings.

00:38:51.680 And that might be true, but that doesn't mean there's no weapons.

00:38:54.920 You know, there's other forms of weapons.

00:38:57.060 We saw in Charlottesville, Virginia, here in America, that in the absence of a gun, someone

00:39:01.240 used a car, you know, the same day that Sandy Hook happened at a Chinese elementary school, somebody

00:39:08.620 knifed 22 children the exact same day.

00:39:10.980 So, you know, offenders will find a way, regardless of what their weapon selection is, if they want

00:39:17.160 to inflict maximum casualty or maximum harm.

00:39:21.820 And so looking beyond just the means to what is the reasoning behind it is extremely important, and that's why it's so

00:39:30.040 multifaceted.

00:39:30.960 It's not just one thing, but collectively, as in not only our nation, but I think within

00:39:37.160 the world, everybody seems to hone in on the very first thing, because that's the easiest

00:39:41.380 thing to go for.

00:39:42.680 Everything that is going on in the process that leads them up to it is far more complex, and it

00:39:47.400 needs a much more protracted and long, long-ranging conversation.

00:39:52.940 One of the things that I certainly see in myself, and I'm sure you see it in a lot of

00:39:57.460 other people, is that there is this desire for answers, and nothing ever satisfies that.

00:40:02.800 And how have you come to terms with this?

00:40:05.380 I mean, you're immersed in this more than anyone else is.

00:40:07.700 How do you, in your own mind, kind of find peace with this when you just see the evil that

00:40:12.620 exists in the world?

00:40:13.440 You know, I appreciate you asking that.

00:40:17.120 I don't actually get asked that a lot.

00:40:18.700 I think for me, really kind of, again, focusing in on the victims and saying, what can I do

00:40:24.720 from my little place and my little corner in the world to make sure that other families

00:40:30.180 don't have this happen to them?

00:40:32.360 What can I do?

00:40:33.300 And so for me, since Parkland, you know, I've been very focused on emergency preparedness

00:40:38.380 training.

00:40:38.980 When I learned about the fact that, you know, kids in that building had never, ever been

00:40:44.000 through a lockdown drill, the teachers had received very minimal training, and from my

00:40:48.660 perspective, had either of those things happened, that shooting may have had a very different

00:40:53.600 outcome.

00:40:54.320 So I've spent two years training school districts on how to respond in these events.

00:40:58.820 But also, I think for me, it's just realizing that the conversation needs to change, and I

00:41:05.260 work really, really hard to change that.

00:41:07.160 You know, one of the things that I learned in the last two and a half years is the most

00:41:12.200 dangerous thing in all of this is not the gun.

00:41:15.640 The most dangerous thing in all of this is the mentality that it can never happen here.

00:41:19.980 Because the minute that you say it can never happen here is the minute your guard is dropped

00:41:24.860 and you've become extremely complacent.

00:41:27.120 And that's when it can or, you know, maybe is more likely because you're not as, you know,

00:41:33.280 aware or, you know, kind of thinking about what's going on around you.

00:41:37.300 And that's really the mentality that I've been trying to change.

00:41:40.220 And I still hear people say, you know, one of the big things right now that's come out

00:41:44.160 in America, and I don't know if it's come out up there, is, well, there were no school

00:41:48.020 shootings in March.

00:41:49.100 Well, there was no students in school.

00:41:50.660 So no kidding.

00:41:51.540 There was no school shooting.

00:41:52.380 But that doesn't mean that we're not having mass homicide, and we're not having all of

00:41:55.920 these other issues.

00:41:56.980 We seem to, as humans, only be able to focus on one thing and that very worst thing, but

00:42:01.800 not think about all of the other things that are going on.

00:42:04.460 So I just try to use the platform that I've been given to educate people to call these

00:42:08.720 types of problems into focus and hope that even if I can change one person's perspective,

00:42:12.800 it will make a difference in the long run.

00:42:15.320 Well, I think that's a very worthwhile perspective.

00:42:17.940 And I'm glad you were able to share it.

00:42:19.220 And also glad you were able to take the time to speak to us today.

00:42:22.900 Joining me on the line, Professor Jacqueline Schildkraut, Professor in the Department of

00:42:26.560 Criminal Justice at the State University of New York at Oswego, also author of the book

00:42:31.580 Mass Shootings, Media, Myths and Realities.

00:42:34.520 Professor, thank you very much.

00:42:35.660 I really appreciate it.

00:42:37.140 Thank you.

00:42:38.560 My thanks to Professor Jacqueline Schildkraut and to all of you who tuned in to the show

00:42:42.940 today.

00:42:43.300 You can reach me, Andrew, at andrewlaughton.ca.

00:42:45.860 We'll be back next week with more of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:42:50.000 Thank you.

00:42:50.440 God bless and good day, Canada.

00:42:52.420 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:42:54.680 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:42:59.800 North at 22ndЛ.ca.

00:43:02.920 Thank you.

00:43:06.440 Thank you.

00:43:08.600 Thank you.

00:43:10.420 Thank you.

Juno News - April 23, 2020

Politicizing a Tragedy

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