Juno News - Protesters defend Hamas terrorism

00:00:00.000 Transcription by CastingWords

00:00:30.000 Thank you.

00:01:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:01:16.960 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:01:25.340 Hello and welcome to you all.

00:01:28.360 this is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North. I was going to say that I hope you all had a happy

00:01:34.740 Thanksgiving and that's not to say you couldn't have and weren't entitled to but I know for

00:01:39.140 a lot of people in this country and a lot of people around the world it was not that at all

00:01:44.620 and I want to just begin the show before I get into the meat of it of which there is a great deal

00:01:50.220 express my sympathies and condolences to anyone who's family members, friends, anyone who lost

00:01:56.620 their life or was injured in the horrific attacks on Israel that took place over the weekend at the

00:02:03.760 hands of Hamas. It was a very well-orchestrated attack, clearly. It's been called, understandably 0.94

00:02:10.080 so, Israel's 9-11. And there are a great many questions that need to be answered, such as how

00:02:15.860 Israel, which has such a sophisticated military defense system intelligence network, did not see

00:02:22.500 this coming or if it did was not adequately prepared those questions I believe will be

00:02:28.720 answered and must be answered but let us not let those questions distract from the most important

00:02:34.420 part of this which is being able to look at this and say definitively and unequivocally what

00:02:40.640 happened this was a series of terrorist attacks by a terrorist group committed in the most

00:02:48.520 barbaric and brutal way possible. I'm talking, of course, about Hamas. This is not just me saying 0.99

00:02:54.040 it's a terror group. Canadian officials have recognized it as such, as have governments

00:02:58.880 around the world in the Canadian case for the better part of two decades. This is not something

00:03:05.220 that we can or should both size, as we're seeing so many of the chattering classes do in the last 1.00

00:03:12.320 few days, where they try to say, well, yes, you know, I don't like innocent life being shed on

00:03:17.460 either side because you actually have to delve into the meat of what people mean when they say

00:03:23.100 that. For example, this is a comment made by one of the speakers at Edmonton's pro-Hamas rally

00:03:29.760 referring to the fact that in his view, no one in Israel is a civilian.

00:03:35.660 Let me explain this. There's no civilians. There's no civilians. First off, any Israeli 1.00

00:03:42.400 is under the israeli law should enlist and serve in the israeli army there is no civilians

00:03:49.100 they're either on or off duty army forces they're not civilians and if they're civilians what are

00:03:55.640 they doing in a protested border if they are civilians and they care about their livelihoods

00:04:03.080 they should stay away away from the border why would israel put civilians that are not israelis 0.97

00:04:10.640 On the border, if it's a border, and you know it's contested, let your civilians be here.

00:04:19.360 No Israelis are civilians. 0.86

00:04:22.180 I'm going to get into that in just a moment, but I just want to first establish the context.

00:04:26.840 What this man is saying is that every Israeli, in his view, is fair game to be a casualty of war.

00:04:33.880 Hamas can go in and kill any Israeli without needing to worry about committing war crimes 0.82

00:04:38.660 by unfairly and summerly killing Israeli civilians because, oh, well, there are no Israeli civilians.

00:04:44.400 It's a very convenient argument. 1.00

00:04:46.660 It also happens to be a load of crap. 0.98

00:04:49.780 Now, yes, many Israelis are in the IDF or are reservists after completing their military service, 0.99

00:04:57.100 but many, in fact, most Israelis are not.

00:05:00.340 People who are over, I believe it's the age of 40,

00:05:02.980 People who are minors, people who are exempt for religious reasons such as being orthodox

00:05:08.000 are not at all members of the military in any way whatsoever.

00:05:13.600 And surely we could perhaps say that infants can qualify as civilians.

00:05:18.660 You may have seen this clip going around.

00:05:20.700 It is a news report from I-24.

00:05:23.560 Take a look.

00:05:25.200 It's hard to even explain exactly just the mass casualties that happened right here.

00:05:30.520 In fact, the Israeli military says they still don't have a clear number.

00:05:33.920 But I'm talking to some of the soldiers and they say what they've witnessed as they've been walking through these different houses, these different communities, babies, their heads cut off.

00:05:45.360 That's what they said.

00:05:46.880 Gunned down.

00:05:47.780 Families completely gunned down in their beds.

00:05:51.560 You can see some of these soldiers right now comforting each other.

00:05:54.420 babies with their heads cut off now i should qualify that clip by saying this is a reporter

00:06:04.480 conveying what she was told by israeli soldiers but i will also say that photos have been seen

00:06:11.560 i have seen some of the photos and i will not make you go through that process as well if you're

00:06:16.140 really inclined you can look them up of people who were given such a fate at kibbutzim in israel

00:06:23.140 And this is, again, I would say to the person in Edmonton that stands up and says there is no Israeli civilian, will you extend that to the infants whose lives were lost because of the Hamas terrorism?

00:06:37.800 Would you say they are fair game in this conflict, this liberation movement?

00:06:43.920 Because that's exactly what's happening.

00:06:45.480 People like Fred Hahn, who is the head of CUPE Ontario, tweeted this out on the weekend, a nice little Thanksgiving greeting, that he is thankful for the power of workers and the power of resistance, because resistance is fruitful, and no matter what some might say, resistance brings progress, and for that I'm thankful.

00:07:05.040 Now, I don't use profanity on this program or on social media, generally speaking.

00:07:09.540 In fact, I did a bit of a search, and I think I've dropped the F-bomb once on Twitter up until this morning

00:07:14.440 when I asked Mr. Hahn, and he's not responded,

00:07:17.820 if children being beheaded was an example of the F-ing resistance that he is so grateful for on this Thanksgiving.

00:07:27.100 As I said, no response just yet.

00:07:29.500 we have had, and I'm very grateful for this, a relatively unanimous condemnation of Hamas and 0.99

00:07:37.280 Hamas's actions from political leaders. Justin Trudeau and Pierre Polyev both gave very thoughtful

00:07:44.380 and very moving, and I would say very unequivocal remarks speaking last night at an event in Ottawa

00:07:52.300 to show solidarity with the people of Israel. I'll play both of those because I think it's

00:07:56.640 important to give credit where it's due and say that the federal government, while it has done

00:08:02.440 a number of things incorrectly on this, has ultimately said what it needed to say as far

00:08:09.080 as contextualizing what Hamas is and what its actions are in relation to those of Israel. This

00:08:15.360 is what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had to say. Glorification of death and violence and terror

00:08:23.260 has no place anywhere, including and especially here in Canada.

00:08:31.240 So let me be very clear.

00:08:35.360 Hamas terrorists aren't a resistance.

00:08:39.900 They're not freedom fighters. 0.99

00:08:42.300 They are terrorists.

00:08:43.780 And no one in Canada should be supporting them, much less celebrating them.

00:08:50.820 very well said we'll get to who it is he's referring to in just a moment but just to

00:08:59.700 give the other side of it here was conservative leader pierre paliev at the same event in starting

00:09:05.660 my remarks tonight let me be explicitly clear hamas is not a militant organization it is not

00:09:14.060 an activist organization, it is surely not a government. It is a sadistic, demonic, genocidal 0.96

00:09:23.940 terrorist death cult, and it must be defeated and destroyed. The incredible carnage that this 1.00

00:09:34.540 terrorist death cult has unleashed in the last 72 hours would be bad enough were it not for

00:09:43.980 the apparent pleasure and sadistic pride with which it was carried out. And so I say to those

00:09:52.100 who might not perhaps have strong opinions about the Middle East, what kind of organization

00:10:00.100 would carry out such hideous violence against such obviously innocent people and do it in the most

00:10:09.060 cruel and odious manner and then willingly publicize it for all the world to see

00:10:15.000 this is evil in its purest form and that evil must be defeated

00:10:20.300 now why those comments are important is because the narrative that we see which is at its core

00:10:31.440 i believe coming from a pure place when people say you know what it's the civilians on both sides

00:10:36.140 that are caught up on this. What they're missing when they say that is that this is not a both

00:10:42.120 sides war. This is not the Axis versus the Allies. This is not Russia versus Ukraine. This is not

00:10:49.080 Armenia versus Azerbaijan. This is an insurgent group. This is a group of terrorists that are 0.91

00:10:57.880 attacking Israeli civilians predominantly. Of the death toll, which has eclipsed, I believe,

00:11:06.260 15, 1600 at last blush, the Israeli side of that is predominantly civilian. The captives

00:11:15.000 are predominantly, if not exclusively, civilian. The babies who were beheaded, according to multiple

00:11:22.940 reports were civilians the concert goers who were raped and murdered were civilians so the number

00:11:31.400 of people that are making comments like this one from a professor who else professor emil j joseph

00:11:38.240 who puts this brilliant observation ahead for all to see post-colonial anti-colonial and decolonial

00:11:46.840 are not just words you heard in your EDI workshop.

00:11:51.540 That is equity, diversity, and inclusion,

00:11:53.900 or I believe more appropriately,

00:11:55.280 diversity, equity, and inclusion, and equity, or die.

00:11:59.680 These words are not just academic theories.

00:12:01.740 No, this is post-colonialism, decolonialism,

00:12:04.440 and anti-colonialism in action.

00:12:07.020 That's what they want you to believe,

00:12:08.180 that all of this, all of that stuff

00:12:09.620 they've been talking about in the classroom

00:12:11.160 that people on the right have liked to criticize

00:12:12.900 and have been called racist for criticizing.

00:12:15.240 that's what this is. We should all be celebrating it. If you're committed to leftist principles

00:12:20.500 like decolonialism, you should be up there cheering for Hamas. That's what these people 1.00

00:12:25.880 are saying. That tweet from Fred Hahn that I mentioned earlier on when he lauds resistance.

00:12:32.260 Sid Ryan, another big labor guy and a longtime NDP activist, actually condemned Jagmeet Singh,

00:12:39.820 the NDP leader, for daring to condemn Hamas terrorism. This is what Sid Ryan had to say.

00:12:47.860 WTF are you talking about? Palestinians have lived with Israeli terrorism for the past 75 years. 0.98

00:12:53.960 They're indiscriminately slaughtered by Israeli forces without any condemnation from the NDP. 0.98

00:12:59.100 You are such a disappointment. So even when someone like Jagmeet Singh stands up there and

00:13:03.620 says, you know, despite my leftist principles and my criticism of Israel, I can accept and

00:13:09.380 denounce this as terrorism. That is not sufficient for the diversity, equity, inclusion, or post-colonial

00:13:17.260 left. You'll hear a lot of people use a bunch of slogans and catchphrases. In Australia, when the

00:13:24.340 pro-Hamas demonstrators were assembling, they were chanting, gas the Jews, which is not exactly what

00:13:29.900 you hear in your average post-colonialism workshop. But you'll also hear this one,

00:13:35.040 from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Now, yes, it has a good meter to it. It's got a 0.63

00:13:42.920 good cadence. It rhymes. That's nice. But from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. What

00:13:48.400 does that mean? I want to go back to basics here and do a bit of a geography lesson. I know the

00:13:53.700 Middle East quite well. I've been there on a couple of occasions, in particular to Israel, but I've

00:13:58.600 also been into the Palestinian Authority-led West Bank, which is on the opposite side of the country.

00:14:04.960 But let's put up a map for you. Now, this is not a sophisticated or contentious map. This comes

00:14:10.200 courtesy of Google Maps. I took the screenshot myself. That big giant blue bit on the west side

00:14:17.340 there is the Mediterranean Sea. Now, on the right, just after where it says West Bank, you'll see

00:14:24.680 like a little small area of blue. That's the Dead Sea. Now, the line going north from the Dead Sea

00:14:31.660 and the line going south from the Dead Sea, that is the Jordan River. Jordan River, very relevant

00:14:36.760 in history. You can read all about it in the Bible. Baptisms in the Jordan River are quite

00:14:42.400 common even today among Christian pilgrims. That's the river. The Mediterranean on the west is the

00:14:47.980 sea. So when they say from the river to the sea, they're talking about the entirety of that area,

00:14:55.200 which is the, as it happens, entirety of Israel. They want Israel to be obliterated. They want it 0.96

00:15:02.460 to be destroyed. They do not wish to coexist. They do not seek a two-state solution. They seek the

00:15:10.080 annihilation of Israel and of Israelis, and yes, of the Jewish people. This is a stated purpose of 0.99

00:15:17.320 the Hamas charter. So absolutely, we should call this out for what it is. We're not just talking 0.99

00:15:24.240 about people that are standing up for peace, that are standing up for the innocent civilians

00:15:28.420 who are caught in the crosshairs of the conflict. And yes, whether they are Palestinians

00:15:32.460 or Israelis should be supported and should be left out of it. But there's a bit of a difference

00:15:39.020 because Hamas actually loves Palestinian casualties. Hamas loves dead Palestinians.

00:15:45.060 They love dead Gazans. 0.93

00:15:46.580 The reason why is because they get to turn around and use that as an excuse to take aim

00:15:50.960 at what they see as Israeli brutality.

00:15:53.540 This is why Hamas will launch rockets from civilian apartment buildings, why Hamas will 0.55

00:15:58.640 put its headquarters in office towers that have offices run by completely non-Hamas businesses 0.93

00:16:05.960 there.

00:16:06.460 Because when Israel turns around and takes aim at Hamas infrastructure, Hamas wants to 0.97

00:16:11.540 be able to use these innocent people as human shields, as tools in its propaganda. Israel 0.78

00:16:18.580 goes through painstaking lengths to avoid civilian casualties, its own and the people of Gaza, which 0.54

00:16:26.020 is why they provide advance warning both through overhead announcements and also through, I believe,

00:16:31.340 mass text messages they send out to phones in a particular area to warn them that an airstrike

00:16:36.660 is imminent now of course they're also giving the warning to the terrorists who are able to relocate

00:16:41.880 and pack up and move on but this false equivalence that people do that oh well yes it's Israel on 0.71

00:16:48.240 one side and Hamas on the other side just two sides of the same coin is absolutely despicable 0.92

00:16:53.560 and it shows a complete lack of knowledge of anything and everything to do with this conflict

00:16:59.080 now I don't expect everyone to be an expert and I will be the first to admit this is very

00:17:04.020 complicated. It is an incredibly difficult part of history to understand, to go from the partition

00:17:10.560 that was proposed by the United Nations in 1947, to the Arab-Israeli War, to the Six Days War in

00:17:17.240 1967, the Yom Kippur War in 1972, to the Intifadas, all of them, to the current conflict. It is 0.61

00:17:25.000 tremendously difficult to understand the difference between the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinian 1.00

00:17:31.860 authority and Hamas is difficult. It is also difficult to reconcile the reality that exists 0.95

00:17:38.520 for Gazan civilians, who, yes, I am completely sympathetic to in understanding how difficult,

00:17:44.940 if not impossible, it is for them to leave where they live. But you also have to understand the

00:17:51.740 problem from Israel's point of view. Israel used to have much more of a presence in Gaza.

00:17:57.000 About 15 years ago, they made the decision to unilaterally disengage. They said, fine,

00:18:01.180 we will pull out of Gaza altogether. We'll patrol the border around it and that is it. 1.00

00:18:07.180 And what has happened since then? Hamas has become the de facto government of the area and not just 0.75

00:18:13.040 this militant group, but they have become the authority or the claimed authority for the people

00:18:18.300 of Gaza. Any aid that goes to Palestinian civilians has to go through Hamas. Hamas is profiting off

00:18:27.820 of the philanthropy of the West, which is something that is not often spoken about

00:18:32.060 and the UN is absolutely well aware of. So whenever people stand up and speak in general

00:18:40.020 terms about Palestinian liberation, when they use terms like by all means necessary, by any means

00:18:46.340 necessary, what they are defending, even if they don't use the words, is the beheading of infants,

00:18:52.680 the kidnapping of seniors, the murder, the indiscriminate murder of Jewish and Israeli

00:19:01.380 civilians. That is exactly what is at stake here. Now, there was another clip that I wanted to share

00:19:09.200 from you here, or for you here, which is from Melanie Jolie. Now, I gave Justin Trudeau credit

00:19:14.460 for being unequivocal in his condemnation of Hamas. Melanie Jolie yesterday was doing an interview

00:19:20.660 on CBC. And she failed to give a clear answer on whether she condemns these pro-Hamas protests.

00:19:29.780 There have been calls for your government to condemn these protests here in Canada. Will you

00:19:35.240 do that? Well, we know that according to Canadian law, Hamas is a terrorist organization. So of

00:19:44.400 course, we don't support it. And at the same time, we've always been clear when it comes to

00:19:52.380 our relationship with Israel. So the position of our government stands. At the same time,

00:20:00.200 there have been hostages. Hostages must be released. And like I said, civilian lives must 1.00

00:20:07.760 be protected. So these will be difficult days ahead and right now and ahead for Israeli people,

00:20:17.180 for Palestinian people, for Canadians, for the world. And you Canadians can know that the

00:20:23.340 government and the Prime Minister and myself are absolutely engaged 24-7 on this issue.

00:20:30.560 But Minister, what do you say to Canadians or other people in this country who might go to a

00:20:34.520 protest uh that that critics say is purporting to celebrate what hamas has done i mean should

00:20:40.800 these protests be happening there have been some calls by others to maybe find a way to prosecute

00:20:45.000 this over supporting terrorism i i don't know if if it goes that far or not in your view uh but

00:20:50.340 what is your message to canadians that might attend these protests given what's happened in

00:20:54.120 the last 48 hours or so oh we don't we don't support hamas we don't support also what they've 1.00

00:21:00.260 done and we don't support hate speech that's what i can tell you and meanwhile of course

00:21:04.360 the minister of public safety will do its work working with local authorities but do you condemn

00:21:09.140 the protest minister i guess that's what i'm trying to understand there have been calls directly for

00:21:12.020 the prime minister to do it uh because i'm here i'm going to ask you but david i'm answering your

00:21:16.740 question of course we can't support the celebration of hamas terrorist attack of course we don't so we

00:21:22.660 don't she says she's been answering the question but actually i mean she never really got to the

00:21:29.600 question. She said, we don't support celebrating Hamas, but it was a very clear question. Do you

00:21:35.040 condemn these protests which are supporting Hamas? And she didn't really give an answer,

00:21:39.420 despite her own party leader, Justin Trudeau, being more clear on this issue. Now,

00:21:44.540 I do not believe that this is a case of Melanie Jolie or the liberal government

00:21:51.300 secretly being pro-Hamas. I believe it is a case of having a foreign affairs minister who is so

00:21:57.380 utterly inept that she cannot answer a clear-cut question. These people are celebrating a group 0.95

00:22:03.020 that the Canadian government says is a terror group. Do you condemn them? Yes or no? Well,

00:22:07.700 yeah, you know, I don't like, yeah, well, you know, it's just yes or no. There are very few

00:22:14.220 questions in politics that are as easy to answer as that. You shouldn't need to have rehearsed the

00:22:20.140 line to get that answer right and to actually give a clear answer. But that's the problem

00:22:27.740 that we're dealing with in Canada. And it's not all that surprising that Canada was left out of

00:22:32.080 this one joint statement by five countries. Now, this is the so-called QUINT, which is the five

00:22:38.260 countries that are part of this network that have nuclear weapons or access to nuclear weapons

00:22:44.120 through sharing agreements with NATO. Italy is the one there. But if you look at this statement,

00:22:49.900 And what's fascinating is that Canada was not invited to be a part of it.

00:22:54.140 The leaders of France, Germany, Italy, United Kingdom, and United States of America

00:22:58.040 released this joint statement, and Canada was not on the call.

00:23:02.440 Now, people have said, well, yes, but Canada's not part of the quint.

00:23:05.720 But why was this not being brought up in the auspices of the Five Eyes? 0.89

00:23:08.880 Why was this not a G7 statement?

00:23:10.640 Why was Canada, which is, as a matter of policy, a pro-Israel country,

00:23:15.720 not being included at the big kids table

00:23:20.280 in the international discussions about Israel.

00:23:22.680 That's a question for which we don't yet have an answer.

00:23:25.600 Melanie Jolie, I have not verified this,

00:23:27.900 but someone pointed out that the backdrop

00:23:29.700 that she was coming from

00:23:31.700 didn't seem like a Parliament Hill office

00:23:33.940 or a ministerial office.

00:23:35.360 I also note that Justin Trudeau today

00:23:37.340 is off to Yellowknife,

00:23:38.580 and I don't mean to besmirch the people of Yellowknife,

00:23:41.660 but when you're being a leader

00:23:44.300 in the midst of an international crisis, you'd think that flying off to the remote north might

00:23:49.620 not be your top priority. And yes, you know, he's presumably going to have cell reception on the

00:23:54.060 plane and up in the north. But that's an area where I'm like, perhaps our prime minister should

00:23:58.160 be in Ottawa right now helping manage this crisis as it comes. So all of this right now is, I think,

00:24:05.380 contributing to what is a very real problem. And Jewish people in Canada, this is not just

00:24:10.380 theoretical for them. This is something where the people I've spoken to that have family members and

00:24:15.120 friends who have either been forced to leave their homes, who have lost people in their lives, who

00:24:21.040 have themselves died or been injured. It's not a short list. The connections between the Middle 1.00

00:24:28.440 East and Canada on both sides of this are quite significant. And even among the pro-Palestinian

00:24:34.160 demonstrators, many of them may have family. And I'm sympathetic to any innocent people that are

00:24:39.100 caught up in this conflict on any side of it. But I'm also not going to both sides the conduct.

00:24:44.920 And this is something we've seen far too much of. Janela Massa, who is a former, I believe,

00:24:50.500 CBC anchor, had tweeted out before she turned her account to protected mode, this lengthy,

00:24:57.160 lengthy thing here where she says that agree with the tactics or not, you can't talk about this war

00:25:03.640 without basic context. She says, it's not unprovoked. And as though there is a debate to be

00:25:09.120 had about the tactics of, the news about beheading babies hadn't come out yet, but the news about 0.89

00:25:14.580 kidnapping and raping teenagers had. So kidnapping seniors, we knew about that. Are we going to just

00:25:20.260 say, well, you know, maybe I agree or disagree with those tactics? No, that is a load of crap. 1.00

00:25:26.960 A few years ago, I was in Israel. It was 2015. I was on my second visit there. And I was there 0.99

00:25:32.780 with a group of journalists, Candace Malcolm. It was actually one of the places where I got to

00:25:37.140 know her well because she was on that trip as well. And we sat down at one point with a Palestinian

00:25:43.260 talk radio host. So I was going to say he's the Andrew Lawton of the West Bank, but I don't

00:25:48.180 actually want to claim that comparison for obvious reasons in a moment. Now, he was a very candid guy.

00:25:54.000 He said he would love a one-state solution because if Palestinians and Israelis were all in one 0.95

00:25:59.220 country, you give it a generation and Palestinians would have outbred the Jews and they would have 1.00

00:26:04.840 a Palestinian state once and for all. But beyond that, at the time there had been a spate of knife

00:26:10.540 attacks where there were Palestinians that were going into Jerusalem and were just stabbing Jews

00:26:16.560 in the street. Maybe they'd injure them, maybe they'd kill them, but this was happening with 0.98

00:26:20.120 alarming frequency at this particular point in 2015. And he was telling us this story of when

00:26:26.760 he put that to his audience. 0.97

00:26:28.960 Is it okay to kill Jews in the streets? 0.99

00:26:31.660 That was the, like, imagine Harrison Faulkner doing his comment question when he asked you 0.95

00:26:36.220 to weigh in on an issue, and the question that he's pulling, that he thinks is contentious

00:26:40.860 enough to have divided opinion on is, is it okay to kill a certain group?

00:26:46.520 That's what was being asked on this West Bank talk show, I believe broadcast out of Ramallah.

00:26:51.980 Nevertheless, he said to me very proudly, most said no.

00:26:56.760 most. So there was a large enough contingent of people calling into talk radio saying, yes,

00:27:01.820 murdering Jews in the streets is justified. This is why Israel has to insist on a border 1.00

00:27:07.260 with the Palestinian territories. This is why people in Gaza have been put in the situation 0.53

00:27:13.620 they are in. And it is absolutely gut-wrenching that people are held up in this. But the reality

00:27:19.900 that you've seen circulating on social media that I think is an important one to reiterate here

00:27:25.180 is as follows. If the Palestinian people, and by that I mean the militants that are fighting for

00:27:33.240 that cause, the Hamas and the like, if they were to lay down their arms, there would be peace. 0.77

00:27:38.740 If Israel were to lay down its arms, there would be no Israel. I'll let that thought sit with you 0.96

00:27:45.440 as I move on from this right now. I do want to turn to a related, although distinct aspect of

00:27:51.720 this, which is that we were in the midst of an international crisis. People were trying to figure

00:27:55.860 out if their family members were okay. They were trying to get on top of it. And if you were in

00:28:00.040 Canada, you had a heck of a time getting access to this news on social media, specifically on

00:28:05.700 Facebook. Now, if you were a Twitter user, there was actually a high volume of content coming out

00:28:11.500 of the Middle East over the weekend. But on Facebook, there was nothing. News links were

00:28:16.660 banned because, yet again, Bill C-18 has forced social media and tech companies into the untenable

00:28:22.800 position of having to cut off the flow of information to avoid being strong-armed by

00:28:27.800 the government and by the legacy media outlets. Chris Sims is normally with us on Mondays, but we

00:28:32.900 had a bit of a day off for Thanksgiving, so she's with us now. Chris, obviously a horrific context

00:28:38.900 for this, but whenever a crisis happens, it brings around, I think, exactly why C-18 has been such a

00:28:46.100 dangerous piece of legislation exactly andrew you and i have spent enough time in newsrooms both

00:28:52.820 legacy media and our current whatever our new media is that we're talking on right now to

00:28:57.700 understand that uh the government shouldn't be screwing this up and they're at risk of screwing

00:29:04.420 it up even more and c18 as you point out we already see its effects with facebook so people

00:29:13.540 can't you know share news links uh they can't comment on the non-existent news links and

00:29:18.660 therefore share more information with each other they then can't basically gather and grow and

00:29:24.100 you know commune with each other and share share this information and in more canadian

00:29:29.540 taxpayers federation context than normal times that would usually mean something like about the

00:29:34.500 carbon tax or being able to recall a politician who was you know not keeping up their end of the

00:29:39.860 bargain but in this current context it really puts into perspective how important it is to be

00:29:45.140 able to have access to information and news media that you need now google is saying yeah you know

00:29:53.140 what we're probably going to side with facebook here and we're going to do the same thing so we

00:29:58.100 have a deadline i think it's december 19th okay it's coming up very quickly uh with them saying

00:30:04.900 we're not going to have links news links to news stories posted on google anymore

00:30:11.520 i'm curious google owns youtube like does that mean that there won't be any more news links

00:30:20.160 on youtube like that is how a lot of people especially for my daughter's generation and a

00:30:26.320 little bit older that's their understanding of screen time like they don't have cable they

00:30:32.460 didn't grow up with bunny ears the way I did. They don't get any other form of information

00:30:38.320 superhighway. That's their superhighway. What happens then? And so this is why we're saying

00:30:43.500 the government needs to back right off of this C-18 because now it is directly affecting

00:30:50.220 Canadians' access to information. And I would just say on the Google thing,

00:30:54.780 one of the points that I stress to people of all political persuasions is to never trust

00:31:00.540 one particular source. I mean, I am very proud of the work that I do and I stand by it. And I love

00:31:05.400 that people trust me and come to True North for their news. But I say you should verify anything

00:31:09.500 and everything, even the best meaning people get it wrong. Just to give one very pertinent example

00:31:14.220 of this, at the beginning of the show, when I wanted to get the latest death toll, I went to

00:31:18.220 Google and I said, Israel Gaza death toll. And I got four or five articles and I checked every

00:31:24.240 single one of them to find the number. And there were distinctions between there based on the age

00:31:28.740 of the story. So if Google were to take away those links, I would have to go to an individual

00:31:35.080 site. I could go to the New York Times or BBC or Al Jazeera, True North, CNN. I could do that,

00:31:40.480 sure. But I lose that ability to get that cross section, which is exactly what the internet has

00:31:47.120 been great for. And you move this to a Twitter context. Now, for the most part, X, as it's now

00:31:53.260 called has kind of managed to fly under the radar of the C-18 discussions, but it's not exactly

00:31:59.400 clear that they'll get a pass on this. No, it's not clear they're going to get a pass on that.

00:32:04.500 And remember what feels now like a million years ago, like last Tuesday when C-11 was really

00:32:11.720 stomping all over us when it comes to things like podcasts and online shows. We need to stress that

00:32:18.180 this isn't just podcasts. This is online shows. And does Twitter slash X now qualify under that?

00:32:26.540 Well, why wouldn't it? So their spaces are live. It's interactive. People are constantly getting

00:32:32.960 interviewed on them. In some cases, it's hundreds of thousands of people listening.

00:32:37.660 They have web videos on there all the time. They have audio on there all the time. That's content.

00:32:43.640 That is content, according to what everything I've ever read under CRTC definitions.

00:32:49.880 So then what happens?

00:32:51.280 And to rewind, if people are missing what I'm saying here, remember back when C11 was

00:32:56.700 passed, folks like you and me and Andrew and like lots of folks, you know, not lots, some

00:33:02.280 folks on the left in other podcast spaces were also warning about it as well, that C11 1.00

00:33:07.060 would alter Canadians' ability to choose what they want to see, hear, and share online.

00:33:13.640 Now, it was floated as part of Canadian culture, Canadian heritage, the CRTC is just going to make sure that you see enough of CBC Gem promoted and enough moose meat recipes and ice hockey scores and all that great Canadian stuff.

00:33:29.240 But the insidious and troubling part of this is that once you give the government the chance to regulate and downgrade what's visible to you, you've given them the ability to make things invisible to you.

00:33:42.820 And so that means that Canadians, no matter where they're coming from on the political spectrum, will have a limited amount of news.

00:33:51.100 Now, there's two regulations that have been released last week.

00:33:55.300 The CRTC said, you know what?

00:33:57.400 Any online body, to paraphrase, that hosts podcasts or programming or content now must register with the Trudeau government, the CRTC.

00:34:08.260 Why? Because they're going to regulate them. 1.00

00:34:10.740 The risk here, Andrew, is that why would big tech do this?

00:34:16.520 In the same way that Meta said no thanks to C18 and now we can't see news on Facebook,

00:34:22.040 what's in it for these big companies with a fractional Canadian audience by comparison?

00:34:28.160 What's in it for them to put up with this headache with the Canadian government?

00:34:31.240 It's very likely that they could just say, you know what, we're switching that part off

00:34:34.620 and then we'll be in the dark.

00:34:36.460 Yes, and I would also point out, I mean, when you discuss, Chris,

00:34:39.560 and I think it's a very valid point that I hadn't really gotten around to thinking of in this

00:34:43.920 particular context of promoting Canadian content. Well, we're talking about an international crisis

00:34:49.520 that's happening right now here. I would say the highest value content in terms of understanding

00:34:54.380 what's happening on the ground is going to be content that's produced closest to the source.

00:34:57.780 When you log into YouTube, it's going to give you the CBC version, the CTV version, the global

00:35:02.600 version. And that's not to say those outlets don't have stringers that they're using and reports from

00:35:06.760 there. But it's a bias against everywhere else in the world that is being baked into the system,

00:35:12.440 which is not the way the news is supposed to be. No, and that's not the way that the internet has

00:35:18.960 been for since it started. It's always been in addition to and other than. So it's always been

00:35:27.500 the ability to go straight to the source and watch something live, literally from somebody's phone

00:35:32.580 now. You can just watch it happen. And so that has always been kind of the great equalizer. And

00:35:38.520 again, to your point, by all means, watch legacy media, read legacy newspapers, watch alternative

00:35:44.600 stuff, make up your own mind. The point here is now you're going to have the less and less and

00:35:50.640 less ability to be able to check the internet and see what the news is and read what these

00:35:57.100 alternative news sites are saying and watch these videos, maybe right from the place that it's

00:36:02.180 happening and make up your own mind and choose. And so this is where, you know, to try to put a

00:36:07.860 smile on people's faces, that's what former President Reagan meant when he said, I'm from

00:36:13.340 the government and I'm here to help. You know, no scarier words. You know, this balance of

00:36:18.900 alternative or independent online news media and legacy media and legacy media's ability to share

00:36:26.780 links on the internet and get its broadcast message out there, that was working fine.

00:36:33.520 That was working fine. It didn't need the Trudeau government to come in there and fix and help and

00:36:39.060 do stuff. But it has. It's neck deep in it now. It's making a terrible mess of it. And they have

00:36:46.100 got to realize this. They have got to stop and realize, whoa, we're doing way more harm than

00:36:51.900 good here. We are limiting people's ability to get information. Sorry, we're backing off. That's

00:36:58.180 what they need to do. Yes. And I want to just speak on behalf of an independent outlet here,

00:37:03.240 which is True North in my context. And I think we've had in the last few years, a level of

00:37:07.720 growth we're very grateful for, but we're still a small outlet that's unknown to a lot of people

00:37:11.880 in Canada. What we rely on as an organization is for one of our stories or one of our shows to go

00:37:17.680 viral and people start sharing it. So it attracts new eyes. People that wouldn't necessarily go to

00:37:23.700 www.tncnews in the morning to check out what's happening in the world that learn of us that way.

00:37:29.700 And that's what this has killed. It's killed that organic growth. No, they haven't taken us offline.

00:37:35.100 They haven't banned us from being accessed just yet. But what they have done is they've limited

00:37:39.780 the organic growth and they've limited the organic growth of videos that you might do at the CTF.

00:37:44.640 and they've limited the organic growth of outlets out there that are independent in nature that I've

00:37:49.240 never heard of because CBC, CTV, the Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star, they have enough, I mean

00:37:55.560 street cred to, for lack of a better term, they have enough name recognition that there are people

00:38:00.540 that if you just tell them to go to a news website, they're probably going to remember one of those

00:38:05.280 and go to it. We don't necessarily have that to the masses. They're established. Yes. That's why

00:38:12.240 they're the establishment and that's why this is alternative and it's growing and it's new

00:38:17.840 so exactly to your point andrew like that that impulse you have say uh you're talking to a normie

00:38:25.520 friend of yours who's part of your family maybe i don't have many normies i know carry on many of

00:38:31.120 them have bailed on me as well too so but say say one had one and say one we're talking about it

00:38:37.840 over Thanksgiving dinner. That's that sort of impulse of that share, share, share, that sense

00:38:45.580 of sharing on Facebook, sharing on X, sharing on the internet, being able to share that information

00:38:53.580 and that article with your friends and family and old former colleagues and maybe high school

00:38:58.440 people that you've been in touch with. That's the whole point. That is the whole point of sharing

00:39:03.040 information and now our access to information is getting tighter and tighter and tighter and there's

00:39:08.420 no good reason for it. Like I need to stress because sometimes people just coming into the

00:39:12.880 middle of conversation might wonder like what kind of stuff are you guys wanting to be watching on

00:39:16.700 the internet? Like what are you afraid of? No, we're not talking about heinous criminal things

00:39:22.740 like terrible things that people want to be sharing on the internet that are against the

00:39:27.600 criminal code. Those things are already illegal. Andrew, if you and I started promoting that

00:39:32.980 garbage right now between the two of us, we could be criminally charged in Canada for doing such 0.99

00:39:37.900 things. That is part of the criminal code. That is not what C-11 is about. C-11 is about Canadian 0.96

00:39:45.160 heritage. It is about content. It is about culture. That is the risk here because they're

00:39:53.620 trying to squeeze and stifle that, okay? And that is what is squeezing your access to information

00:40:00.180 here. And then we have something like C18. So it's like this two-headed monster. We have C18,

00:40:06.860 which is now literally blocking our ability to see and share news on one of the biggest social

00:40:14.540 media platforms in Canada. I think the last stat I saw, something like 20 million Canadians

00:40:19.680 have a facebook account that's enormous and now they can't see news on it and now google just

00:40:26.080 announced you know what we're not playing this game either we're going to take our ball and go

00:40:30.020 home folks you need to contact your mp i know there's a lot going on right now but you need

00:40:35.380 to tell your mp hey my access to news and information is a voting issue for me you guys

00:40:40.260 got to get this all repealed chris sims from the canadian taxpayers federation always a pleasure

00:40:46.720 thanks so much for coming on today. Thanks, Andrew. All right. We will see you next Monday

00:40:51.140 at the regular time. I just want to, on the note of freedom of speech there, talk about very briefly

00:40:58.140 this rally situation that I mentioned earlier on when you had people demonstrating across the

00:41:04.180 country. I was going to say Canadians, but to be honest, I don't know how many of them are Canadian

00:41:07.640 citizens versus just residents, but you had people in this country preaching in some cases some very

00:41:13.600 radical and very hateful things. Now, I saw a lot of calls over the weekend to shut these things

00:41:19.620 down, to ban these protests from taking place, and I vehemently and unequivocally objected to those.

00:41:25.720 I made a comment on Twitter, which I can't remember the exact wording of now, but I basically said the

00:41:30.880 answer to these things is to let them expose themselves, let them express their vile beliefs

00:41:36.720 and their anti-Semitism, and then denounce it, condemn it, call them out, do whatever you want

00:41:41.300 to respond to it, but do not prevent them from speaking. And I've had a, I mean, it's triggered

00:41:48.000 a discussion that I think is a very interesting one. And I even had a, I won't say who it was,

00:41:52.540 but I had one person who is in politics reach out to me and say, you know, they didn't like

00:41:57.240 sort of the implication that I was accusing them of censorship, which was not my intent at any

00:42:02.360 individual person or group, except to say that there was an impulse that I saw, which I didn't

00:42:07.700 like, which is to take these vile, heinous things and say we need to shut them down. Now, I want to

00:42:13.320 provide a bit more nuance than my initial tweet on this offered up, because there is in Canada a

00:42:19.400 legal restriction on freedom of speech. There are several, but when you're talking about inciting

00:42:24.600 violence, inciting hate, incitement is the key word here, there is a criminal threshold that exists.

00:42:33.200 Now, I do not profess to be a lawyer.

00:42:35.760 I couldn't tell you exactly how that line is drawn,

00:42:38.080 except to say that it is a very, very high bar.

00:42:41.020 And to be honest, I think outside of direct threats

00:42:43.720 against individuals or groups,

00:42:45.980 I have a very difficult time wanting to invoke

00:42:48.780 those sections of the criminal code.

00:42:50.900 So when you get up there and say,

00:42:53.060 I believe that it is justified for Hamas to do what it did, 1.00

00:42:57.700 I think that is disgusting. 0.79

00:42:59.020 I think it's hateful. 0.96

00:42:59.820 I think it's despicable.

00:43:00.720 I do not believe it is or should be illegal versus someone getting up and encouraging other people

00:43:06.660 to engage in that act. And this is a very difficult and uncomfortable distinction because

00:43:11.960 ultimately to support free speech means you are defending the vilest forms of expression

00:43:17.340 imaginable. But I will tell you what I've said time and time again, you do not need freedom of

00:43:22.280 speech protections for unobjectionable speech. You need freedom of speech protections for heinous

00:43:27.660 speech. But I can say that glorifying terrorism and glorifying terror groups is very, very, very

00:43:34.540 close to the line. In fact, you can say it's teetering on the line. And there's one woman

00:43:38.920 who knows the hatred directed at the Jewish people very well. And that's my colleague,

00:43:43.520 Sue Ann Levy, who joins me now. Sue Ann, I want to talk about the pro-Israel rally that took place

00:43:49.240 last night. But I also want to get your take on this because you've covered these groups and

00:43:53.800 these protests for years, none of this vile antisemitism from the last few days can be at

00:43:59.400 all called new. The only thing that might be new is some people are paying attention for the first

00:44:04.260 time, right? Absolutely. I mean, that's a great part of it. Look, Andrew, I covered the, I don't

00:44:15.320 know what you want to call it, the insurrection in 2020, and the hate speech that came out of

00:44:20.840 school boards and universities and from the activists was just over the top at least now

00:44:27.320 people are paying attention although the people who espouse uh i guess glorifying

00:44:36.120 the heinous crimes that happened in israel and we keep hearing more and more every hour 0.70

00:44:41.560 uh try to hide in the shadows and uh i have found some incredible things they use social

00:44:47.880 media, then social media, and Israel knows this well, social media is where some of the war is

00:44:55.380 being waged, not just out on your television set, not just out in the battleground, but certainly

00:45:00.840 on social media. And they use social media very, very well to espouse their views. Make no mistakes.

00:45:09.240 One thing that I wanted to ask you about is that, I mean, to be honest, I'm amazed at how explicit

00:45:14.720 some of these calls are in the last few days.

00:45:18.220 Because oftentimes from the academic set,

00:45:20.760 they try to hide their real beliefs behind language.

00:45:24.200 I mean, one distinction you'll hear all the time is,

00:45:26.600 no, no, no, I'm not an anti-Semite, I'm an anti-Zionist. 1.00

00:45:29.720 And yes, you can oppose Zionism without being an anti-Semite. 0.51

00:45:33.160 You can criticize the government of Israel

00:45:34.660 without being an anti-Semite.

00:45:36.000 But I find in the majority of cases,

00:45:37.880 the people that hide behind those words

00:45:39.700 are in fact anti-Semites.

00:45:41.160 Well, I think that the IHRA definition has changed that. That's the International Holocaust Remembrance definition of anti-Semitism. And anybody who obsesses about the Jewish state and about Zionism and use those precise words, that's just a cover up.

00:46:01.020 That is just what they're using words dressed in the guise of anti-Semitism.

00:46:06.760 And I remember, I mean, I've been covering this for years and years and years, ever since the Queers Against Israeli Apartheid marched in the Pride Parade back in 2009.

00:46:16.580 And I remember when you couldn't dare mention that these people were anti-Semitic.

00:46:22.060 No, no, no, no. They were just criticizing Israel.

00:46:24.440 Well, now you can call them for what they are.

00:46:27.720 And in fact, there's a very wise lawyer out of, well, she was out of New York City.

00:46:32.280 She's now living in Israel, Brooke Goldstein, who's involved in the Lawfare Project, you know.

00:46:37.300 And she actually, I attended a seminar just a few weeks ago when she spoke.

00:46:42.420 She was the keynote speaker.

00:46:43.480 And she said, just call it for what it is.

00:46:45.960 Like Black Lives Matter, we should be calling it End Jew Hatred.

00:46:50.600 And that's what I've been doing over the course of the last couple of days.

00:46:54.100 hashtag end Jew hatred, because that is what it is, pure and simply. The fact that these 0.99

00:47:00.340 people who are protesting in downtown Toronto or in downtown Vancouver or in Montreal

00:47:05.780 can glorify the horrendous, horrendous crimes that have occurred, even chopping off the heads

00:47:15.760 of 40 babies. I mean, I heard that this morning. It made me cry. They can glorify this. There's

00:47:21.820 nothing short of anti-Semitism and let's not couch it in anything else.

00:47:27.900 One thing, you mentioned queers against Israeli apartheid. And I mean, this sounds like something 0.95

00:47:33.220 out of a South Park sketch because it's so absurd that any queer identifying individual doesn't 0.99

00:47:40.600 realize that there's only one country in the Middle East in which they have rights, and that

00:47:44.360 is Israel. And I would love to see the gay pride march through Gaza City. I would love to see the

00:47:49.600 gay pride march through Riyadh. Every now and then they march gays through the streets of Tehran 0.94

00:47:54.460 before they execute them. So why, but like, this is the obvious point. It's the low hanging fruit 0.87

00:48:01.000 of this all. Why did they not see this? I mean, people like Fred Hahn, who's a very open and

00:48:06.440 passionate advocate for gay rights as a gay man himself, like he does not exist in the society

00:48:13.240 that he is trying to basically aid in the Middle East right now. They've deluded themselves in

00:48:19.540 into thinking that they're anti-oppression activists.

00:48:23.420 They've deluded themselves into thinking

00:48:25.820 that they're helping the oppressed,

00:48:28.740 but they're ignorant about the geopolitics over there.

00:48:31.980 They refuse to admit or refuse to see

00:48:34.960 that Hamas is the one who's governing the Gaza Strip,

00:48:39.160 who's oppressed the Palestinians,

00:48:42.320 and Hamas and all of the Arab states that surround Israel 1.00

00:48:47.320 would chop off your head kill you push you off a balcony for being gay openly gay and in fact 1.00

00:48:54.520 it happened to one person just a couple of weeks ago this person who identified as gay 0.98

00:48:59.860 was actually killed killed his head chopped off believe it or not it is gut-wrenching and i i

00:49:09.000 think the only saving grace of this all such as it is was seeing how many people have despite all

00:49:14.800 of this come out and supported Israel through this. I know you were in Toronto last night at

00:49:20.600 the vigil there. 20,000 people came out, which is astronomical. And I mean, Justin Trudeau,

00:49:26.340 whatever my misgivings about his government's handling of a number of files, he struck the

00:49:30.620 right chord last night, as did Pierre Polyev. What was your take from that event?

00:49:35.400 It was tremendously moving. They had people speaking from Israel, talking about what they're

00:49:41.560 experiencing, how they're living in bomb shelters. They stopped short of showing the footage of some

00:49:47.520 of the atrocities, but spoke about them. And I have to say that all the leaders from the provincial

00:49:53.520 premier to Krista Freeland and Mayor Olivia Chow and some of her councillors, all of them came out

00:50:00.980 and spoke words of support. Doug Ford was the most moving. He was on fire, and I've got to give him a

00:50:08.020 lot of credit for what he said um but uh just being my wife and i said just being amongst all

00:50:15.320 these people um and crowded into me uh mel lastman square there was tremendous police security i have

00:50:22.500 to tell you but just being crowded into that square amongst people like-minded people who

00:50:27.740 are suffering we're mourning we're more it i didn't lose any family but israel is my family

00:50:34.700 is my homeland and i feel tremendous ties to it my wife has family there and we're keeping in touch

00:50:40.880 but we all are mourning we are all disheartened and i can't begin to tell you how upset we've

00:50:48.600 both been all weekend as is my family by all of this well i'm glad uh that uh you know the family

00:50:55.800 that your wife has over there are okay given the circumstances i i know that will not be a flash

00:51:01.480 in the pan what's happening there, as some of these other flare-ups have. This is going to go

00:51:04.980 on for a while, and I know you're going to continue reporting on it. Sue Ann, thank you so much for

00:51:09.180 coming on. Oh, you're very welcome, Andrew. All right. Sue Ann Levy, we'll have more coverage

00:51:14.140 from her through the week at truenorthtnc.news. And I will share some of my own, we're already

00:51:20.320 over time today, but I'll share some of my own reflections on Israel itself and why the country

00:51:24.720 means so much to me tomorrow. It's not because I'm on the take as some paid Zionist shill, 0.64

00:51:29.980 despite what some of the people in the comments are trying to say.

00:51:34.020 No, I will support Israel without receiving a dime

00:51:36.820 because it is the morally right thing to do.

00:51:40.220 But in the meantime, my thoughts and prayers to the people of Israel

00:51:43.700 and to the innocent people in the Palestinian territories,

00:51:48.460 in Gaza specifically, because yes, this is not meant to be callous or cruel.

00:51:52.320 I believe that they are suffering,

00:51:54.440 but I also believe we need to have a level of realism

00:51:56.660 in how we deal with and understand this conflict.

00:51:59.980 And you can't do that if you're devoid of the history of this region.

00:52:04.000 So more as the week progresses.

00:52:06.220 My thanks to you all for tuning in.

00:52:07.660 This is The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:52:09.380 We'll talk to you tomorrow.

00:52:10.780 Thank you, God bless, and good day to you all.

00:52:13.860 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:52:15.900 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:52:29.980 We'll be right back.

00:52:59.980 We'll be right back.

Juno News - October 10, 2023

Protesters defend Hamas terrorism

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