Juno News - Pushing back against well-funded anti-oil activists

00:00:00.000 Coming up, a confusing stay-at-home order, a malignant alliance between government and big tech, and the need to invest in Canadian oil.

00:00:22.820 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:26.360 Welcome, everyone, to Canada's most irreverent talk show.

00:00:32.300 This is the Andrew Lawton Show on True North.

00:00:35.420 Lockdown forced by state mandate to stay in the home studio for the next month.

00:00:40.160 Well, at least at home. I think I might be allowed to head to the bathroom or head to the kitchen.

00:00:44.220 We'll see how things go. Who knows? If the restrictions get any further, then I might be confined to here, in which case we'll do shows all the time.

00:00:51.180 It'll be great.

00:00:51.840 This is day one of Ontario's new stay-at-home order, which is a term that you'd think would invite a little bit of clarity, although that hasn't at all been the case.

00:01:02.740 So, as of 12.01 this morning, Eastern Time, Ontarians have to stay home unless they have an essential reason to leave.

00:01:11.020 Now, what is essential, you might ask?

00:01:12.920 Well, that's a great question.

00:01:13.940 There are, I think, like 20-some-odd reasons that you can leave home.

00:01:18.420 One of them is if you work, but only if your employer has determined you have to be in a physical place other than home.

00:01:25.680 You can attend school.

00:01:26.880 You can get childcare.

00:01:28.240 You can get food.

00:01:29.280 You can get personal care items.

00:01:30.840 You can get things you need to maintain or clean your house.

00:01:33.840 You can get something from curbside pickup.

00:01:36.480 You can do a lot of other things here.

00:01:38.340 You can exercise, take your dog for a walk.

00:01:41.100 This is all fine, but there's a big question mark as to what this actually means.

00:01:47.520 Because on one hand, it's stay-at-home, but on the other hand, five people can get together outdoors, but ten people can get together indoors for a wedding.

00:01:55.680 You have to go out for only essential things, but non-essential businesses can still sell you things by curbside.

00:02:01.520 And all of this was making people scratch their heads so much, I was trying to cover this as it was coming out.

00:02:07.620 This was announced on, I think, Tuesday, and the thing that was so bizarre about it is that they kept changing the actual guidelines.

00:02:15.840 And we had a press release from the Ontario government.

00:02:18.660 We had an FAQ that was released.

00:02:21.280 We had all of these other documents except for the actual stay-at-home order.

00:02:27.260 And I want to draw your attention.

00:02:28.940 This is the order and counsel signed by Premier Doug Ford from the Ontario government.

00:02:33.840 Goes into effect.

00:02:35.140 You can see it right there under Section 2 at 12.01 a.m. on January 14th, 2021.

00:02:43.340 Now look at when it was approved.

00:02:46.680 January 13th, 5.56 p.m.

00:02:51.080 So this was put out six hours before it was put in law.

00:02:56.820 Which means if you're a business or an individual who's affected by this, especially on the work-from-home stuff, because now you have to decide as a business, if someone can do their job from home, they have to legally.

00:03:09.480 There's no wiggle room there.

00:03:11.480 So you had six hours to comply with this.

00:03:14.880 And as of today, we are now living in an era in which police can theoretically question you as to why you are out.

00:03:24.100 Now the government says they just want people to stay home.

00:03:26.700 They say it's perfectly clear, just stay home.

00:03:29.320 This was something Doug Ford even tweeted as far as our little wake-up call goes this morning.

00:03:33.920 He said, good morning Ontario, stay home.

00:03:36.160 That's actually what my phone says every morning.

00:03:38.280 Good morning and stay home.

00:03:39.700 It doesn't actually.

00:03:41.600 But they say it's perfectly clear, even though everyone's been asking questions.

00:03:45.960 Small business owners saying, according to the Toronto Star, we need more clarification on this.

00:03:50.740 Well, you're out of time.

00:03:52.060 Police services saying they have way more questions than answers on enforcing the new stay-at-home order.

00:03:59.740 This was a recurring theme that I was seeing where law enforcement officials were saying,

00:04:04.440 well, we can't answer questions about how we're going to enforce this because we haven't actually seen the order.

00:04:10.620 So technically, police were supposed to be out enforcing this law at 12.01 a.m. this morning.

00:04:16.920 And they had no idea what the law would be until just shy of 6 p.m. yesterday because it kept changing.

00:04:23.540 And what the government has done in some ways is clamp down on people.

00:04:28.380 But in other ways, they've just put in something that looks more theatrical than anything else.

00:04:34.440 And the reason I say that is because they aren't actually answering a lot of the questions that are most necessary to have answered.

00:04:42.400 This frequently asked question thing they put out, admittedly, this came out on Wednesday morning.

00:04:49.820 So this was Wednesday morning responding to the confusion from Tuesday afternoon.

00:04:54.640 And this, again, was also something that was changed a few times after it before it was put in place.

00:05:00.440 But of all the questions that people are asking, the government cannot determine, is what they're saying.

00:05:06.740 So what's an essential item?

00:05:08.160 The government can't determine what is essential for every person in this province.

00:05:11.900 Now, to be fair, I agree with this. 1.00

00:05:14.720 I agree that determining essential or non-essential is stupid. 0.96

00:05:18.120 And this was something Jason Kenney and I talked about at great length when we sat down just prior to the end of the year. 0.90

00:05:23.940 So, for me, non-essential might be different than it is for you.

00:05:28.220 One of us might think that carrots are essential.

00:05:30.500 Someone else might think that a guitar amp is essential.

00:05:33.200 And I would say that if you can safely shop, then it doesn't really matter what you're buying.

00:05:38.120 But the government here is saying, on one hand, we're limiting.

00:05:40.640 You can only go out for essential reasons.

00:05:42.380 But then refusing to define that.

00:05:44.440 Which, again, I agree with.

00:05:45.840 I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.

00:05:48.040 They say they can't determine what an essential trip is.

00:05:50.780 They say they can't determine what essential work is.

00:05:55.940 Is there a time limit for how long people can leave their homes?

00:05:58.420 No.

00:05:58.940 Well, we're asking people to use their best judgment.

00:06:01.080 Is there a limit on the number of times someone can leave their home in a day?

00:06:04.060 No.

00:06:04.580 We're asking Ontarians to use their best judgment.

00:06:07.380 Can people travel to their cottages or secondary residences?

00:06:10.960 In the spirit of the stay-at-home order, at this time, we are not recommending intra-provincial travel.

00:06:17.880 And the stay-at-home order says, well, you're allowed to go to a cottage or something for less than a day or more than 14 days.

00:06:24.820 But the whole point of this is that, on one hand, they're saying this is a state of emergency.

00:06:29.420 We must do all of this.

00:06:30.720 And then, on the other hand, they're just saying, ah, you know what?

00:06:32.960 Just figure it out.

00:06:33.760 Use your best judgment.

00:06:34.760 And, again, I mean, my whole approach to this since the beginning has been let people use their best judgment.

00:06:40.660 But having a state of emergency with law enforcement able to fine and harass and harangue does not jive with what this government is now saying,

00:06:50.680 which is that, well, you know what?

00:06:52.200 Companies can figure out for themselves what non-essential work is, what essential work is.

00:06:57.340 We have our list of industries.

00:06:59.160 But as far as working from home, just figure it out.

00:07:01.680 And the problem with the just figure it out approach, which sounds good on paper, is that if, on one hand, you have the government saying that,

00:07:10.180 but on the other hand, you actually have creeping into the frontline law enforcement officers the opposite of that from perhaps someone along the chain,

00:07:19.140 maybe a commander or something or a captain, and they're actually saying, well, no, the province has said stay at home.

00:07:25.020 Therefore, we need to start pulling over cars on the street like a ride program.

00:07:29.160 And instead of smelling the breath, we're going to say, smells like non-essential products in here.

00:07:34.640 This smells like you've been doing something non-essential.

00:07:37.140 Get out hands on the hood.

00:07:39.340 So I don't know.

00:07:40.440 And, again, this is at this point speculative.

00:07:42.760 But with only six hours to review this, speculation is all we had.

00:07:49.660 Speculation is all we had.

00:07:50.960 So it's one thing to say good morning, Ontario, stay home.

00:07:53.620 It's another thing to call it a stay-at-home order.

00:07:57.080 But this is not something that we should be celebrating.

00:08:01.120 Unclear laws and rules and orders in council are not to be celebrated.

00:08:06.760 And remember, we talked on the show Monday with Ryan O'Connor about a curfew,

00:08:11.980 because at the time there was a talk of there potentially being a curfew imposed in Ontario.

00:08:17.460 And a lot of what happened in that discourse, I have to think, was deliberate.

00:08:22.700 I think that the government wanted to dangle out the curfew idea so that whatever they did would look reasonable,

00:08:28.800 because they already determined they weren't actually putting a curfew in.

00:08:32.300 That's one way to parse what happened.

00:08:35.060 Now, just because we don't have a curfew, I'm not exhaling and saying,

00:08:38.140 okay, great, you know, civil liberties protected.

00:08:40.480 Because if we find out in the coming days that law enforcement are starting to harass people or detain people

00:08:47.580 or force them to question what it is that they're doing when they're out,

00:08:52.140 then we actually have a 24-7 curfew.

00:08:55.140 It's not a curfew from 8 a.m. to 7 p.m.

00:08:57.080 It's an all-day, all-night curfew, because now you have to justify your existence at any point.

00:09:03.460 Now, I had posted a little tongue-in-cheek clip on Twitter where I said,

00:09:07.540 I'm all ready to go for the lockdown.

00:09:10.060 I'm all ready to go because I've got my essential permit.

00:09:12.520 This is a clip that may be familiar to some of you.

00:09:14.900 Not to worry. I have a permit.

00:09:16.760 This just says, I can do what I want.

00:09:23.020 That is like an evergreen one.

00:09:24.820 I think I've dug that out a couple of times throughout the course of the pandemic.

00:09:27.680 We might need to start, like, issuing True North cards that just say that.

00:09:31.200 I can do what I want, you know, hashtag True North or something.

00:09:34.180 I don't know. I'll bring it up with the team.

00:09:36.620 But the whole point of what's happening right now is that if we are leaving people to their own devices

00:09:42.740 and saying, you can decide for yourself, then why not actually let them decide for themselves?

00:09:48.380 If we can shop at a grocery store safely, why can we not go to church safely?

00:09:52.520 If we can shop at a Costco safely, why can we not shop at a guitar store safely or something like that?

00:09:59.600 And the problem with this doublespeak is that it is what undermines people's confidence and trust in the system.

00:10:08.040 And this is something we've seen throughout the entirety of the pandemic.

00:10:11.240 When people don't understand the rules or can't make sense of them or see contradictions in them,

00:10:16.060 they start to just shrug.

00:10:17.540 And even well-meaning people who follow this stuff religiously,

00:10:21.240 people like me who will look up the order in council,

00:10:23.640 if I can't make sense of this,

00:10:25.860 the average person who just scrolls the headlines and maybe not even that,

00:10:30.640 they're certainly not going to understand the distinction between government issues, stay-at-home order,

00:10:35.440 and, well, you can actually leave home for this,

00:10:37.320 and you can, if you're single, go to another household, and you can do all that stuff.

00:10:40.840 So what I'm asking for is not a genuine stay-at-home order.

00:10:44.720 I'm asking for clarity so that we aren't on one hand saying we're doing something else,

00:10:49.060 and on the other hand, not.

00:10:50.900 Because all that this leads to is a mentality when cases still keep going up

00:10:55.420 of people saying, well, I guess we didn't go far enough.

00:10:59.200 And the answer to that is to say, well, no,

00:11:01.720 it's because the original guidelines were not communicated at all with any sort of clarity,

00:11:07.180 so we can't expect them to have actually had the desired effect.

00:11:11.200 And remember that, well, people in Ontario and elsewhere in the country,

00:11:15.180 like in Quebec, are being told not to leave their homes,

00:11:18.180 and denied this right and that right, and businesses are being shut down.

00:11:22.000 There's a certain class of person that is exempt from the rules. 0.99

00:11:26.260 This story out of British Columbia is simply asinine. 0.50

00:11:31.020 Meng Wanzhou, the Huawei CFO who is currently on bail in British Columbia, 0.78

00:11:36.540 her family was granted a federal travel exemption by the immigration minister's office

00:11:43.220 to come into Canada despite having no legal basis to come to Canada.

00:11:47.680 So this is a woman who is literally on trial. 1.00

00:11:51.500 A woman who's literally on trial. 1.00

00:11:53.440 And Meng Wanzhou's husband, Liu Zhaozong,

00:11:57.800 and if you speak Mandarin, I'm sorry if I've butchered that,

00:12:02.000 but her husband and their children applied for an exemption to the travel ban,

00:12:06.780 to the border closure, to travel from China in December.

00:12:10.240 They came here and they are still here.

00:12:12.780 And they were authorized, specifically authorized, to get around the law.

00:12:18.480 Right now, you're only allowed to come if you have immediate family

00:12:21.620 who are either Canadian citizens or permanent residents.

00:12:25.160 Wanzhou is neither of them.

00:12:27.080 She is here under detention.

00:12:29.240 She is here detained, being detained,

00:12:31.540 while extradition is pending to the United States.

00:12:35.720 And the Prime Minister's office is not commenting if it knew about the application.

00:12:40.820 The Parliamentary Secretary to the Foreign Affairs Minister, Rob Olyphant, defended it.

00:12:45.400 He said, Canada is a country of the rule of law.

00:12:49.000 We do not let, whether we like someone or dislike someone,

00:12:52.500 get in the way of us absolutely fulfilling our responsibilities.

00:12:56.820 I think we should absolutely do that.

00:12:59.760 We should absolutely do that,

00:13:01.180 because this is not a country that should have an open border approach,

00:13:06.280 especially when the border is closed to anyone else.

00:13:09.220 If my friend wants to come and see the beautiful Rocky Mountains, he can't do it.

00:13:12.900 If my friend wants to go somewhere else, I'm talking about any friend,

00:13:16.160 I'm not a specific friend.

00:13:17.680 But Americans cannot come to Canada.

00:13:19.800 Brits cannot come to Canada. 0.99

00:13:21.400 Yet, if you are a Chinese national whose wife is on trial in Canada,

00:13:26.940 you're allowed to get around the law and come and spend an indefinite amount of time here.

00:13:32.400 So we should absolutely say, you know what?

00:13:34.320 We actually don't like you.

00:13:35.640 You don't have a right to come here.

00:13:37.100 Ergo, we're not going to just open up the gates for you on this.

00:13:40.800 That is an entirely reasonable response.

00:13:44.180 Now, at this level, at this level, and again, this part is speculative,

00:13:48.020 but former Canadian ambassador Guy Saint-Jacques says that discussions at this level

00:13:52.840 definitely would have gone to the desk of the minister.

00:13:55.540 So it's very possible, very likely, that the minister authorized,

00:13:59.920 or at the very least knew about this,

00:14:02.480 which means that the Trudeau government is complicit in this particular decision.

00:14:06.720 One lawyer in Toronto, an immigration lawyer, Chantal Deloge,

00:14:11.040 says that this is already discretionary.

00:14:13.780 Lots of people who have a legitimate claim get turned down.

00:14:17.200 So why on earth, I ask, would this one not go the same route?

00:14:23.000 But here's the issue.

00:14:24.220 If you support the border closure,

00:14:25.960 if you support the idea of shutting down the border,

00:14:28.380 making it so people can't travel to Canada,

00:14:30.660 and making it difficult for people even to visit their families,

00:14:33.380 then at the very least, if we're going to make an exception for anyone,

00:14:36.900 let's not make it for Meng Wanzhou's family.

00:14:40.980 This is not an unreasonable thing.

00:14:43.020 So right now, what happens is anyone connected with the Chinese Politburo

00:14:48.960 seems to be doing completely fine.

00:14:51.440 We had, you know, theme parks opening in Wuhan.

00:14:54.000 We have Chinese nationals connected to Huawei,

00:14:56.940 which is an extension of the state Politburo

00:14:59.340 that are allowed to come to Canada when no one else can.

00:15:02.020 And it's weird, I mean, how my friend Mark Stein has pointed it out,

00:15:05.420 that it's just China's world, and we're all living in it.

00:15:08.040 And that seems truer and truer with each passing day.

00:15:11.080 We've got to take a break.

00:15:12.440 We'll be back with more of The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:14.480 Stay tuned.

00:15:16.920 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:21.300 We are back.

00:15:22.540 And as we talked about on the previous show,

00:15:25.200 Parler, the supposed conservative pro-free speech alternative

00:15:28.820 to Facebook and Twitter is still offline.

00:15:32.760 The CEO of Parler the other day said that it might not ever come back.

00:15:36.960 They don't know because they're finding that not a single vendor

00:15:39.440 wants to do business with them.

00:15:41.580 Some of them might have a moral objection.

00:15:43.880 Others might just be afraid of themselves being boycotted.

00:15:47.220 And we'll be talking about boycotts in another context in the next segment.

00:15:51.040 But this is the reality of it.

00:15:52.700 And when I talked about this last week, I actually had some pushback

00:15:56.360 from people that thought I was kind of talking about this from both sides.

00:16:00.280 On one hand, I said, yes, you know, I'm a libertarian.

00:16:03.000 Companies need to self-regulate and the market will prevail or should.

00:16:06.900 And on the other hand, I conceded that the libertarian approach

00:16:09.980 has a lot of significant challenges, which is where Parler is right now,

00:16:14.300 which is that you have to build your own internet.

00:16:15.960 You have to build your own everything.

00:16:17.500 And I wasn't trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth.

00:16:20.180 I was just trying to concede that I understand the libertarian utopia

00:16:25.280 that I would like to be the case is not, in fact, as easy.

00:16:29.520 That's all.

00:16:30.960 That's all I was pointing out.

00:16:32.260 And yes, companies can self-host it.

00:16:34.320 And we're moving more and more towards that.

00:16:36.380 I think the real lesson here has to be that you cannot create a business

00:16:39.800 that is dependent on another business,

00:16:43.020 especially if you're doing something remotely connected to conservative politics.

00:16:47.180 But it is interesting that a lot of people that hated Parler,

00:16:51.140 that hated Trump, were using the events of the Capitol raid

00:16:54.360 as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway.

00:16:57.620 And we see this with the impeachment of Donald Trump.

00:17:00.320 A lot of the impeachment rhetoric started before he even took office.

00:17:04.980 So the impeachment was going to happen.

00:17:06.680 The reason he's been impeached twice is because

00:17:08.720 he would be impeached 19 times if they could do it.

00:17:11.960 They just want him out.

00:17:13.560 And they want conservatives off the internet.

00:17:17.000 They want Parler off the internet.

00:17:19.000 So they're going to use whatever cudgel they can to achieve that.

00:17:24.280 It is interesting, though, because everyone wanted to blame Parler,

00:17:28.020 which is this upstart, relatively small organization,

00:17:31.100 without actually looking at the role that Facebook and Twitter had

00:17:33.920 in themselves becoming venues for people to talk about their discontent

00:17:40.000 with the U.S. government, which, again, according to the logic of the last week,

00:17:44.420 is what led to the Capitol raid.

00:17:46.540 People talking about it on social media.

00:17:48.800 Facebook itself is implicated in this.

00:17:51.060 Sheryl Sandberg, who's a Facebook executive,

00:17:53.840 said, oh, no, no, no, Facebook is not really responsible.

00:17:56.940 And this is a piece in the Stanford Advocate

00:17:59.100 pointing out how 100,000 users posted hashtags

00:18:02.960 that include Stop the Steal and Fight for Trump.

00:18:07.320 Now, this is something that, as well,

00:18:09.800 if we are to use Facebooks and Twitters and Amazons and Apples

00:18:13.600 and Google's own logic against them,

00:18:15.500 well, we've got to deplatform Facebook now.

00:18:18.060 This is the reality.

00:18:19.980 I'm just looking for equality across the board here.

00:18:22.980 So here's the problem, though.

00:18:24.600 I don't like big tech companies.

00:18:26.440 I really don't like government.

00:18:28.400 And this story has not gotten a lot of attention yet.

00:18:31.140 But a briefing note in the Heritage Ministry in Canada

00:18:34.560 called Regulation of Social Media Platforms

00:18:37.720 indicates that the Canadian government

00:18:39.780 will be tabling a bill this year, early this year,

00:18:42.740 that will challenge and actually, in some cases,

00:18:45.900 censor the content put on social media,

00:18:49.180 specifically on the big tech platforms.

00:18:50.880 This is from Blacklock's reporter.

00:18:53.380 Cabinet will introduce regulations to curb Twitter

00:18:56.200 and Facebook posts deemed hurtful or offensive,

00:18:59.400 says Heritage Minister Stephen Gilboa's department.

00:19:02.120 Now, remember, hate speech, already illegal in Canada,

00:19:05.180 has been for years.

00:19:06.520 We already have laws that govern speech

00:19:08.720 that meets a very high threshold of criminality.

00:19:12.080 Anything beyond that will simply be about speech

00:19:16.480 that the government doesn't like.

00:19:19.440 And by forcing Facebook and Twitter to deal with this,

00:19:23.000 lest they be fined or penalized,

00:19:25.260 and again, we don't yet know for sure

00:19:26.580 what the rule is going to look like,

00:19:28.580 all these companies will have to do

00:19:30.620 is take a broader and more aggressive approach

00:19:33.860 approach to moderation,

00:19:36.820 which means less speech, not more.

00:19:40.420 So whenever anyone starts talking about,

00:19:42.480 oh, well, I support free speech,

00:19:44.080 but I don't support hate speech,

00:19:45.340 you have to ask them to define hate speech.

00:19:48.400 And I sat in on the meetings of the Heritage Committee

00:19:51.780 when they were debating and discussing

00:19:53.660 what has become this law.

00:19:55.300 I listened to the ones I wasn't in Ottawa for.

00:19:57.720 I read the report.

00:19:59.180 Nowhere is hate speech defined.

00:20:02.080 The only definition that exists

00:20:03.420 is the criminal code definition,

00:20:05.020 which clearly won't be their definition,

00:20:06.780 because if it were,

00:20:07.780 it wouldn't actually be necessary,

00:20:09.180 because that speech is already illegal.

00:20:12.680 So this is going to be used as a weapon

00:20:16.020 against quote-unquote offensive speech,

00:20:19.000 which is the only type of speech

00:20:20.600 that needs legal protection.

00:20:22.440 You don't need legal protection

00:20:23.620 for benign, inoffensive speech,

00:20:25.840 because no one would challenge its existence.

00:20:28.640 And the only thing worse than big tech censorship

00:20:31.300 is government censorship.

00:20:33.300 The only thing worse than that

00:20:34.400 is government-empowered big tech censorship,

00:20:37.420 because then you don't even have

00:20:38.780 the legal remedies that you do

00:20:40.460 if the government's going after you.

00:20:43.140 So mark my words,

00:20:44.440 this is going to be a very dark day for the internet.

00:20:47.040 We've got to wrap things up for this segment.

00:20:48.900 We'll be back in a few moments

00:20:50.020 with more of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:20:52.740 Stay tuned.

00:20:57.260 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:04.000 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:06.400 We talk a lot about cancel culture,

00:21:08.420 people trying to boycott.

00:21:10.480 Well, what about when it happens

00:21:12.020 to the Canadian energy sector?

00:21:14.480 A lot of people might not be aware of this,

00:21:16.400 but there's a movement afoot in a lot of areas,

00:21:19.000 not the least of which is academia,

00:21:20.820 that is trying to get people to divest

00:21:23.240 from Canada's energy sector.

00:21:25.720 A group has come up to respond to this

00:21:28.420 and explain why it's not just wrong,

00:21:30.220 but not even particularly effective.

00:21:32.480 And that is Invest Now,

00:21:34.140 which just launched in the last few weeks here.

00:21:36.160 The executive director, Gina Papano, joins me now.

00:21:39.680 Gina, good to talk to you.

00:21:40.600 Thanks very much for coming on.

00:21:42.700 Thank you, Andrew.

00:21:43.380 Thanks for having me.

00:21:44.080 So what is Invest Now and why was it necessary?

00:21:48.300 Well, Invest Now is a not-for-profit

00:21:50.280 dedicated to challenging the divestment narrative.

00:21:54.380 Why is it necessary?

00:21:56.120 We think that people don't realize

00:21:59.960 that these movements are taking place,

00:22:02.860 starting out in the universities and colleges,

00:22:05.500 also religious organizations.

00:22:08.440 And in Canada, it's slowly but surely

00:22:10.420 making its way into pension funds, divestments,

00:22:14.360 institutional funds, and municipalities.

00:22:18.400 Municipalities are speaking about divestment.

00:22:20.980 So we decided to launch Invest Now

00:22:23.380 to challenge the divestment narrative,

00:22:26.040 to say divestment is wrong.

00:22:27.920 It doesn't achieve what it's purported to achieve,

00:22:30.540 which is doesn't reduce emissions.

00:22:32.100 And Canada has some of the best energy companies

00:22:36.320 in the world.

00:22:37.460 It doesn't reduce demand.

00:22:39.100 So the supply will come from elsewhere.

00:22:41.980 Let's take a couple of steps back here 0.76

00:22:43.680 for people that aren't familiar with this.

00:22:45.520 What is the actual process that's happening

00:22:48.840 as it pertains to energy?

00:22:50.460 And what's the rationale used

00:22:52.120 when agencies or institutions

00:22:54.440 or even just investment funds

00:22:56.600 are making these determinations?

00:22:58.300 Well, what's happening is

00:23:00.920 a group out of the US called 350.org

00:23:03.940 is setting up pockets on campus.

00:23:07.240 Let's take a campus activist groups

00:23:10.380 as an example.

00:23:11.940 So they're setting up activist groups

00:23:14.480 on campus who are writing letters

00:23:17.300 to the Board of Governors

00:23:18.400 because it's the Board of Governors

00:23:19.760 and the university presidents

00:23:21.040 that are making these decisions.

00:23:23.020 And they're asking for the endowment fund

00:23:25.940 to be divested of fossil fuels.

00:23:28.660 And they give it timelines.

00:23:30.340 And the reason is

00:23:31.160 because they are trying to send the message

00:23:34.580 that fossil fuels are bad.

00:23:38.500 And to divest is right

00:23:40.760 and to invest is wrong.

00:23:42.840 And so the Board of Governors has a vote.

00:23:46.580 These groups are setting up protests on campus.

00:23:50.320 And then Guelph is a perfect example.

00:23:52.700 Last year, they voted for divestment

00:23:55.800 and only three people voted against it

00:23:59.560 on the Board of Governors.

00:24:01.500 So we're realizing that the other side

00:24:04.000 is not being told,

00:24:05.120 the other side of the messaging.

00:24:06.760 And we're trying to get,

00:24:07.860 we're trying to write our own letters

00:24:09.260 to the Board of Governors

00:24:10.180 and university presidents

00:24:11.180 to say, consider this,

00:24:13.640 especially for Canada.

00:24:15.520 We don't think people realize

00:24:16.800 how important the Canadian energy sector is

00:24:18.980 to the economy,

00:24:20.160 to running universities,

00:24:21.320 to running everything in our cities.

00:24:24.040 And we want to get that message out there.

00:24:26.380 We know that Canadian energy stocks,

00:24:28.860 to use one metric,

00:24:30.220 are in a pretty rough spot.

00:24:31.900 I think a lot of people

00:24:32.660 who have invested in this have been,

00:24:34.640 and I include myself in this category,

00:24:36.640 a bit frustrated with performance

00:24:38.260 or underperformance in some ways.

00:24:40.120 You, of course, worked at the TSX.

00:24:41.720 You're well aware of this.

00:24:42.920 This is not about

00:24:44.280 the actual economics of this, though, correct?

00:24:47.120 These aren't determinations

00:24:48.480 because people are saying

00:24:49.480 they're not sound investments.

00:24:51.320 No, these are more

00:24:53.160 based on an ideological framework.

00:24:57.380 Wow.

00:24:57.680 So they're taking away

00:24:59.160 a whole sector.

00:25:01.600 So they're not saying

00:25:02.700 don't invest in fossil fuels

00:25:04.220 because the returns aren't great.

00:25:06.040 They're saying

00:25:06.820 don't invest in fossil fuels at all.

00:25:09.040 So even companies

00:25:10.400 that are performing well,

00:25:11.460 which there are some,

00:25:12.420 and the pension funds

00:25:13.940 or the investors

00:25:14.780 can't invest in that company

00:25:17.640 because they've committed

00:25:18.740 to not investing

00:25:19.960 in any fossil fuel company.

00:25:21.880 So that's the issue.

00:25:23.480 It's that you're removing

00:25:25.200 an entire sector

00:25:26.380 from the investment portfolio.

00:25:28.700 A lot of us expect

00:25:29.900 these sorts of very,

00:25:31.380 frankly, wacky,

00:25:32.560 and I don't say that

00:25:33.400 to downplay how damaging it is,

00:25:34.920 but a lot of us expect

00:25:35.820 this sort of wackiness

00:25:37.160 from academia

00:25:38.020 and from universities.

00:25:39.060 But you said this is starting

00:25:40.640 to creep a little bit

00:25:42.060 into the mainstream.

00:25:43.440 How is that?

00:25:44.160 Yes, well, just recently

00:25:46.820 a group of students

00:25:48.720 put out a video

00:25:51.280 for the Ontario teachers

00:25:53.460 to pressure

00:25:55.340 the Ontario teachers' pension plan

00:25:57.140 to divest from fossil fuels.

00:25:59.440 So it's starting to creep

00:26:00.720 into pension funds

00:26:02.740 and also Canada pension plan

00:26:04.840 has been approached

00:26:06.260 by these activist groups

00:26:09.140 to divest from fossil fuels.

00:26:11.200 So it starts out

00:26:12.020 in the universities,

00:26:12.740 but it's gaining momentum.

00:26:14.340 And especially in Canada

00:26:15.420 where we have the best

00:26:18.920 in the world

00:26:19.460 in terms of energy companies

00:26:21.240 for ESG reasons,

00:26:25.040 they're transparent,

00:26:26.820 our corporate governance standards

00:26:28.140 are very high.

00:26:29.880 And so we want to think

00:26:32.680 about what you're doing

00:26:33.640 when you're saying

00:26:34.260 you're divesting

00:26:34.820 from Canada's energy sector.

00:26:37.660 Yeah, and that's actually

00:26:39.060 an important point of this

00:26:40.400 because when the Canadian energy sector

00:26:42.960 is weakened,

00:26:43.940 it means that the demand

00:26:46.040 just shifts to other parts

00:26:47.680 of the world.

00:26:48.240 The product itself

00:26:49.220 does not go down in demand.

00:26:50.740 I know there was something

00:26:51.580 that your organization

00:26:52.800 mentioned previously,

00:26:53.660 which is that if the oil and gas

00:26:55.420 that is provided by Canada

00:26:57.700 is not needed,

00:26:58.440 all we're going to do

00:26:59.440 is get it from Iran

00:27:00.580 and Saudi Arabia

00:27:01.520 and Russia.

00:27:02.360 And there's a lot of

00:27:04.480 just common sense missing

00:27:06.400 from the crusade

00:27:08.560 against the Canadian energy sector.

00:27:11.020 That's right.

00:27:11.860 And that's what we're trying

00:27:13.060 to insert some common sense

00:27:14.680 into the fight.

00:27:17.900 Now, let me ask you about

00:27:19.900 where this is actually going from here

00:27:22.460 because there's a risk as well,

00:27:24.560 I think,

00:27:25.260 that when more of this

00:27:26.860 becomes mainstreamed,

00:27:28.360 it only extends further.

00:27:30.440 So for now,

00:27:31.300 it could be a pension fund

00:27:32.480 saying we don't want to invest

00:27:33.660 in the energy sector.

00:27:35.340 And then the next step

00:27:36.160 could be we don't want

00:27:36.940 to invest in companies

00:27:37.880 that invest in that

00:27:39.360 unless they don't invest

00:27:40.460 in the energy sector.

00:27:41.460 And at a certain point,

00:27:42.360 it becomes where people

00:27:44.020 are trying to wall off

00:27:45.260 this entire industry,

00:27:46.760 which is not just an industry,

00:27:47.900 but a hugely critical one

00:27:49.580 for Canada.

00:27:50.980 Yes.

00:27:51.440 And it also extends

00:27:52.420 to other sectors

00:27:53.260 who rely on the oil and gas.

00:27:55.300 It can extend

00:27:56.600 to other sectors

00:27:57.640 that rely on the oil

00:27:58.600 and gas industry

00:27:59.440 to operate,

00:28:01.200 you know,

00:28:01.380 the manufacturing sector,

00:28:02.500 the mining sector,

00:28:04.080 agriculture.

00:28:05.600 All sectors really rely

00:28:07.560 on the energy,

00:28:09.940 hydrocarbons

00:28:10.660 to run their businesses.

00:28:12.640 So it's a slippery slope

00:28:14.620 and we're trying to

00:28:17.080 halt it

00:28:18.200 and present the other side.

00:28:20.980 One of the things

00:28:21.720 that Invest Now says

00:28:23.220 is that divestment

00:28:24.380 cannot alter

00:28:25.260 basic economic realities.

00:28:27.040 In that sense,

00:28:28.640 why does this matter?

00:28:29.680 Why does divestment

00:28:30.640 pose a risk

00:28:31.400 if it really,

00:28:32.320 in your view,

00:28:33.040 doesn't change all that much?

00:28:35.560 Well,

00:28:35.940 if companies,

00:28:37.320 if the investment climate

00:28:39.240 is not welcoming

00:28:40.320 to companies,

00:28:41.240 they'll take their business

00:28:42.120 elsewhere.

00:28:43.360 So companies need capital

00:28:45.140 to do their business,

00:28:47.300 especially public companies,

00:28:48.640 obviously.

00:28:49.480 And if people

00:28:51.540 aren't investing

00:28:52.160 in these companies,

00:28:52.940 they will go

00:28:54.620 to a more favorable climate,

00:28:56.860 which is leaving Canada.

00:28:59.780 And that's something

00:29:01.520 we've already seen

00:29:02.400 too much of.

00:29:03.320 I don't think

00:29:03.840 we need to see

00:29:04.400 any more of it,

00:29:05.060 nor do we want to.

00:29:06.720 Especially at this time

00:29:07.960 when we're trying

00:29:08.580 to dig ourselves there.

00:29:10.200 Yeah,

00:29:10.440 but you raise

00:29:11.780 an important point there,

00:29:12.740 which is that

00:29:13.180 now especially,

00:29:14.840 I mean,

00:29:15.000 I'd argue there's never

00:29:15.780 a time we want

00:29:16.400 to be waging war

00:29:17.160 against Canadian business,

00:29:18.580 but now especially,

00:29:19.980 we can't afford

00:29:20.920 to be picking

00:29:22.160 and choosing

00:29:22.700 on these really bizarre

00:29:24.060 and skewed

00:29:25.180 supposed moral grounds,

00:29:26.920 which companies

00:29:27.600 are worth doing business

00:29:28.600 with and which aren't.

00:29:30.660 That's right.

00:29:31.160 And they're providing jobs.

00:29:33.460 Well, jobs is moral,

00:29:35.860 a moral issue as well,

00:29:37.020 providing jobs

00:29:37.700 for people,

00:29:38.260 livelihoods.

00:29:39.820 Where do we draw the line?

00:29:41.460 If you start looking

00:29:42.660 at things

00:29:43.940 from that perspective

00:29:44.880 instead of from,

00:29:46.840 okay,

00:29:47.160 we're investing

00:29:47.740 in this company,

00:29:48.440 it's a good company,

00:29:49.360 they're innovative,

00:29:50.000 they're reducing emissions

00:29:51.960 and that's taken away,

00:29:53.640 those types of criteria

00:29:55.320 are taken away

00:29:56.180 if you just divest

00:29:57.860 from the entire sector.

00:29:59.600 Now,

00:30:00.180 let me ask a bit

00:30:00.860 about Invest Now itself

00:30:02.560 because I know

00:30:03.120 your background

00:30:03.720 is obviously in finance.

00:30:05.780 Is this coming about

00:30:06.800 from people

00:30:07.520 in the energy sector?

00:30:10.500 Yes.

00:30:11.220 Well,

00:30:11.580 I've been following

00:30:12.660 the movement.

00:30:13.360 The movement's

00:30:14.080 about 10 years old

00:30:16.480 in the United States

00:30:18.020 and in UK

00:30:18.960 and in Canada,

00:30:20.220 I've just noticed

00:30:21.240 some of the universities,

00:30:22.480 there's six universities

00:30:23.480 now that have pledged

00:30:24.480 to divest.

00:30:25.600 I've been watching

00:30:26.320 the movements

00:30:26.840 for about two years

00:30:28.060 and I just see

00:30:29.200 that it's extending

00:30:30.620 its reach.

00:30:32.500 And I've spoken

00:30:33.640 to a few people,

00:30:34.560 I have a group

00:30:35.020 of investors

00:30:35.860 that are interested

00:30:37.320 in this movement

00:30:39.060 and also presenting,

00:30:40.740 as I said,

00:30:41.180 the other side,

00:30:42.000 which isn't being heard.

00:30:43.700 I don't think people

00:30:44.440 realize what's happening.

00:30:45.760 So the protesters

00:30:48.140 are out there

00:30:49.540 and we need to be

00:30:50.520 out there as well

00:30:51.300 to say,

00:30:52.280 well,

00:30:52.840 think about this

00:30:53.780 and consider

00:30:55.620 the other options.

00:30:57.760 And one thing

00:30:58.520 you pointed out earlier

00:30:59.520 that I wanted

00:31:00.180 to circle back to

00:31:01.260 was that a lot

00:31:02.160 of this is being

00:31:02.840 driven by a U.S. 0.60

00:31:03.860 organization,

00:31:04.540 you said,

00:31:04.860 correct?

00:31:05.980 Yes.

00:31:06.480 And that means

00:31:07.080 U.S. funding

00:31:07.960 of this.

00:31:08.780 And we know

00:31:09.180 whenever the energy

00:31:10.120 sector is involved,

00:31:11.240 the amount of money

00:31:12.400 that goes into

00:31:13.840 the anti-energy

00:31:15.660 sector side

00:31:16.600 of this thing

00:31:17.140 is always vastly

00:31:18.200 more than the

00:31:18.980 pro-energy side

00:31:19.880 is able to put in

00:31:21.280 or historically

00:31:21.820 willing to put in.

00:31:23.440 That's right.

00:31:24.140 They're very well funded.

00:31:25.460 As I said,

00:31:26.400 they set up groups

00:31:27.480 on campuses

00:31:28.360 everywhere.

00:31:29.880 You type in

00:31:30.860 go fossil free

00:31:31.900 blank university

00:31:34.040 and they're there

00:31:35.820 and the groups

00:31:36.580 are set up.

00:31:37.260 So we're behind

00:31:38.840 in that sense

00:31:39.660 that we have to,

00:31:40.420 we also have to

00:31:42.120 start setting up

00:31:44.440 our groups

00:31:46.220 that say,

00:31:46.800 well,

00:31:47.140 don't divest,

00:31:48.280 invest.

00:31:49.900 So I know

00:31:50.860 this is a new

00:31:51.600 organization

00:31:52.280 and obviously

00:31:52.900 everything this year

00:31:53.940 is a little bit

00:31:54.920 upside down

00:31:56.220 as far as

00:31:57.060 just how business

00:31:57.820 is working

00:31:58.320 and how communications

00:31:59.240 are working.

00:32:00.000 But have you found

00:32:01.020 that there has been

00:32:02.140 a receptiveness

00:32:03.240 from some of the people

00:32:04.340 that are being targeted

00:32:05.260 by the anti-oil activists

00:32:06.960 to at least hear you out?

00:32:09.520 Yes, I have.

00:32:10.200 And also we could

00:32:11.220 use this to our advantage

00:32:12.340 given the fact that

00:32:13.360 students aren't on campus

00:32:14.880 right now.

00:32:15.540 So there aren't

00:32:16.360 protests happening

00:32:18.040 to the same effects

00:32:19.680 that they were before.

00:32:21.820 And I think

00:32:22.500 by writing to,

00:32:24.020 by reaching out to

00:32:25.240 boards of governors,

00:32:26.780 university presidents,

00:32:28.040 institutional funds,

00:32:29.420 we can get our message

00:32:30.920 across a little bit

00:32:31.840 on the same footing

00:32:33.640 as the other groups.

00:32:36.040 People always ask me

00:32:37.380 when I bring up

00:32:37.900 these issues

00:32:38.380 what they can do

00:32:39.140 about it.

00:32:39.620 So I will ask,

00:32:40.420 do you think

00:32:40.660 there is a value

00:32:41.480 in alumni

00:32:42.480 reaching out

00:32:43.160 to their boards

00:32:43.620 of governors

00:32:44.060 with a similar message?

00:32:46.060 Yes, I do.

00:32:46.760 And I also think

00:32:47.720 that they should consider

00:32:48.700 the money going

00:32:49.820 into the endowment fund.

00:32:52.660 They're willing

00:32:53.620 to accept

00:32:54.120 any money

00:32:54.720 coming into

00:32:55.280 the endowment fund.

00:32:56.160 Well, a lot of that time

00:32:57.220 it's money coming

00:32:58.400 from the oil

00:32:58.920 and gas sector

00:32:59.680 or related

00:33:00.840 to the oil

00:33:01.460 and gas sector

00:33:02.000 like a plastics company

00:33:03.260 did the biggest

00:33:05.180 donation ever

00:33:05.940 to Guelph.

00:33:07.080 Well, you can't

00:33:08.860 have plastics

00:33:09.440 without petrochemicals.

00:33:11.180 So I also want

00:33:12.380 to get across

00:33:13.920 the interconnections

00:33:15.660 between companies

00:33:16.620 and the oil

00:33:17.280 and gas sector.

00:33:18.680 And I do think

00:33:19.560 we are going

00:33:20.380 to reach out

00:33:20.860 to alumni

00:33:21.360 and the corporate sector

00:33:22.660 because they are

00:33:23.560 the ones investing

00:33:26.300 in the endowment funds

00:33:27.740 to say,

00:33:28.460 do you realize

00:33:29.420 that this is

00:33:30.420 also happening?

00:33:31.120 They're taking the money

00:33:32.420 on one hand

00:33:33.080 and divesting

00:33:33.820 from your sector

00:33:34.980 on the other.

00:33:36.240 I know we have

00:33:36.820 a lot of people

00:33:38.100 in the West

00:33:38.700 that work in this sector

00:33:39.860 and even people

00:33:40.620 just around the country

00:33:41.440 that work in it

00:33:42.540 or just care a lot

00:33:43.520 about it.

00:33:43.920 So I'm glad

00:33:44.500 you're doing this.

00:33:45.260 I know that a lot

00:33:46.280 of people tend to

00:33:47.300 try to downplay

00:33:48.260 what's happening

00:33:48.840 on campuses

00:33:49.480 because it's,

00:33:50.240 oh, it's just,

00:33:50.640 you know,

00:33:50.800 what the universities

00:33:51.540 are doing.

00:33:52.180 But as we've seen

00:33:53.140 time and time again,

00:33:54.120 this can have

00:33:54.780 a ripple effect

00:33:55.500 and this already is

00:33:56.660 going in that direction.

00:33:58.060 The organization

00:33:58.840 Invest Now,

00:33:59.740 you can learn more

00:34:00.300 about it at

00:34:00.740 investnow.org.

00:34:02.420 The executive director,

00:34:03.660 Gina Papano,

00:34:04.380 joins me.

00:34:05.160 Gina, thank you so much

00:34:06.140 and congratulations

00:34:06.880 on this.

00:34:08.420 Thank you.

00:34:09.200 Thanks very much, Andrew.

00:34:10.340 Have a good day.

00:34:11.560 I'm so glad.

00:34:12.100 Now, I actually just

00:34:13.000 learned about

00:34:14.120 what Gina was doing.

00:34:15.440 I learned about

00:34:15.840 Invest Now

00:34:16.360 earlier in the week

00:34:17.980 and I instantly said,

00:34:18.860 okay, this is something

00:34:19.440 I have to talk about

00:34:20.480 on the show.

00:34:21.280 And the reason is

00:34:22.300 because I alluded

00:34:23.520 to it with Gina.

00:34:24.580 So many times

00:34:25.300 people will message me

00:34:27.200 and say,

00:34:27.540 well, yeah,

00:34:27.900 you know,

00:34:28.100 this is terrible.

00:34:28.640 Well, the world's

00:34:29.140 going to hell

00:34:29.520 in a handbasket, 0.99

00:34:30.460 but what can I do

00:34:31.600 about it?

00:34:31.960 So anytime we have

00:34:33.240 an opportunity

00:34:33.860 where there is

00:34:34.800 an action item

00:34:35.780 of sorts

00:34:36.240 or a group

00:34:36.900 that's taking action,

00:34:38.260 I think it's good

00:34:38.980 to spotlight that.

00:34:40.320 So in this case,

00:34:41.120 yeah,

00:34:41.340 if you're a university

00:34:42.560 alumnus

00:34:43.320 and you are seeing

00:34:45.040 this university

00:34:46.360 that you have

00:34:47.480 paid money to,

00:34:48.400 that you have

00:34:48.780 taken a degree from,

00:34:50.120 start to go after

00:34:51.200 this method

00:34:52.460 of divestment

00:34:53.820 or at least

00:34:54.320 entertaining it,

00:34:55.480 you can push back

00:34:56.660 against it

00:34:57.060 and you should

00:34:57.440 push back against it

00:34:58.840 and the oil companies

00:35:00.280 should not be giving

00:35:01.420 money to these institutions

00:35:02.780 if they don't want

00:35:03.500 anything to do

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Juno News - January 15, 2021

Pushing back against well-funded anti-oil activists

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