Juno News - Quebec's tax on the unvaccinated is coercive, totalitarian, and just plain wrong

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.540 Coming up, we have foreign interference in Canadian elections and domestic interference in Canadian liberties.

00:00:21.660 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:25.300 Welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:33.080 We'll be talking later on in the program with former Conservative MP Kenny Chu about interference, not just in Canada's elections, as I said in the teaser there,

00:00:43.480 but also in Canada's system of government, Canada's institutions.

00:00:48.460 A lot of it's coming from China, but the whole point of it is that we have vulnerabilities that could actually be exploited by any actor.

00:00:55.660 So we'll talk about that later on in the show with Kenny.

00:00:58.680 But I do want to talk a little bit more about Quebec's proposed tax on the unvaccinated, which is really just a backdoor way into a vaccine mandate.

00:01:09.080 I played the clip in the last show. I have to play it again.

00:01:13.180 Jean-Yves Duclos, the federal health minister, has said that he thinks provinces inevitably will go down the road of mandating vaccination.

00:01:21.060 Take a look.

00:01:21.860 First, it's a view which is based on my personal understanding of what we see internationally and domestically,

00:01:31.600 and in conversations with my colleagues, health ministers, over the last few weeks.

00:01:36.280 And second, it's a decision that will be made by provinces and territories at some point, whether they move forward or not, that's going to be their decision to make.

00:01:46.780 But what we see now is that our health care system in Canada is fragile.

00:01:52.640 Our people are tired.

00:01:55.100 And the only way that we know to go through COVID-19, this variant and any future variant is through vaccination, PPE, physical distancing, tests, rapid tests, PCR tests.

00:02:13.540 These are all very important tools.

00:02:15.260 But what will make us move through this crisis and end it is vaccination.

00:02:21.940 And I see in my own province, 50 percent of hospitalizations now in Quebec are due to people not having been vaccinated.

00:02:32.620 That's a burden on health care workers, a burden on society, which is very difficult to bear and for many people difficult to understand.

00:02:43.000 So that's why I'm signaling this as a conversation, which I believe provinces and territories in support with the federal government will want to have over the next weeks and months.

00:02:54.820 You're going to be seeing a lot of that clip because it is such an important one, the federal government deciding that it's up to the provincial governments in this country to figure out whether you should get vaccinated, not your own choice.

00:03:07.220 That's basically what he's saying there.

00:03:09.100 And when Quebec says, OK, what we're going to do is we're going to make you pay if you're unvaccinated. 0.91

00:03:15.300 They're not mandating it because, again, they're saying, well, you still have a choice.

00:03:18.920 You can choose to not get vaccinated.

00:03:21.000 You just have to pay for it.

00:03:22.920 But what they're doing is they're further stratifying societies.

00:03:26.180 The vaccine passport was bad enough. 0.75

00:03:28.120 They're saying that's nothing.

00:03:29.320 Wait till you see what we're going to do next.

00:03:31.320 And in Quebec, when they put this forward, if you are not vaccinated, you will have to pay extra.

00:03:37.040 And how the government is rationalizing this is by saying that, well, your burden on the health care system is if you are unvaccinated higher than if you're vaccinated.

00:03:47.780 So they're trying to basically say that you have to pay for what the government says is your increased share of the health care system.

00:03:57.580 Now, this is where the thing will die.

00:03:59.980 A lot of the criticism that this has gotten from the left, for example, NDP member of parliament, I think it was Don Davies,

00:04:05.940 had said that he doesn't like that this would compromise the universality of health care in Canada.

00:04:11.400 It's not, well, I think it's wrong to judge people based on their vaccination status.

00:04:15.800 It's, well, we can't do anything that steps on the toes of universal health care.

00:04:20.840 But, hey, I'll take opposition to this however we get it.

00:04:23.780 I think what the government is aiming to do is put forward a policy that seems unintrusive, that they can pretend is not intrusive,

00:04:31.440 that they can pretend isn't just trampling on your right to bodily autonomy and your right as an individual to make these decisions.

00:04:37.840 And they're saying, well, we're going to do it in the tax code.

00:04:40.140 So that's how they're getting around the enforceability problem.

00:04:42.820 This might be something that is on your income tax returns.

00:04:45.640 So either you have to declare vaccinated or unvaccinated, or perhaps Health Quebec records are being sent over to Revenue Quebec,

00:04:53.540 which raises a host of monumental other issues.

00:04:56.280 Because what happens if we start taking this actuarial approach to health care in general?

00:05:02.180 You know, I was on a left-wing podcast about this.

00:05:05.280 I've had great fun.

00:05:05.940 I've been on the show a number of times.

00:05:07.240 And we were talking about this.

00:05:08.660 And I said, be careful what you wish for.

00:05:11.200 Be careful what you wish for.

00:05:12.680 Because a lot of the people on the left, and by the way, I've seen a lot of criticism left and right of this Legault tax.

00:05:19.280 But if you are on the left and you believe in health care in this country as birthright, as so many Canadians do,

00:05:26.680 be careful what you wish for.

00:05:28.340 Because if we go down the road of starting to demand that Canadians pay for their share of health care,

00:05:35.800 which is basically what you're doing when you pay for something based on a risk criteria,

00:05:40.540 if you do that, you're opening the door to a whole host of other issues in health care

00:05:45.940 that I don't think people want to do in Canada.

00:05:50.260 Bringing in that Americanized approach to health care that is so often resisted and rejected by Canadians.

00:05:58.720 Sure, let's start changing your tax rate based on whether you smoke,

00:06:02.400 whether you eat crappy food, whether you go to the gym or not, all of these other things.

00:06:06.480 And some people will say, well, a lot of this stuff is embedded in sin taxes on tobacco.

00:06:12.160 Sure, but there's no sugar tax.

00:06:13.780 There's no junk food tax.

00:06:15.200 In many provinces, alcohol is just taxed at the regular sales tax.

00:06:19.360 There's not a special alcohol tax per se that is tied to the health care system.

00:06:24.760 And even in Ontario, when they did have a tax that was special to liquor,

00:06:29.260 and I think they do still to some extent, but it's more hidden.

00:06:32.440 They were not putting it always to health care.

00:06:34.360 It was, oh, we're going to schools, we're going to roads.

00:06:36.980 The OPSU, the union representing LCBO employees, liquor store employees,

00:06:42.520 was always saying that this was basically just more government revenue.

00:06:47.120 So the idea that these taxes are only tied to the health care system is just not accurate.

00:06:54.260 And let's look at, I don't cover sports at all,

00:06:56.420 but let's look at someone like Novak Djokovic in Australia,

00:07:00.000 a guy who was held up in some immigration detention gulag because he wasn't vaccinated,

00:07:05.580 even though he had natural immunity.

00:07:08.180 Novak Djokovic is, despite being unvaccinated, probably healthier and more fit than,

00:07:14.240 not probably, he is healthier and more fit than most people in the world.

00:07:18.640 So I would take an unvaccinated Novak Djokovic and say that he is going to be responsible for less

00:07:25.700 health care expenditures if he were in a public system than a fully vaccinated person who has

00:07:32.000 another lifestyle.

00:07:33.080 Not even someone who's just, you know, like the opposite, but even someone who has just an 0.71

00:07:37.100 average size, average health concerns and all of that stuff, average level of fitness and diet.

00:07:42.480 So he's going to be less burdensome, but he would still be subject to that tax.

00:07:50.560 He would still be subject under the Legault idea, irrespective of how much or how little

00:07:55.900 health care he or anyone else uses, people have to pay the tax if they're unvaccinated

00:08:01.940 and they don't have to pay it if they're vaccinated.

00:08:05.340 But it's a backdoor into trying to make it so that health care is no longer the public good

00:08:11.340 that Canadians have, generally speaking, affirmed they want.

00:08:15.080 Now, by the way, I am totally, totally for an overhaul of the health care system.

00:08:20.420 I find Canadian health care is terrible.

00:08:22.740 I find it is something that we cling to despite its shortcomings and we deliberately, deliberately

00:08:28.940 delude ourselves into thinking that it lacks the inferiority it does.

00:08:32.760 Now, I'm not proposing replacing it with the US system.

00:08:35.860 There are a host of other systems around the world that do better than both Canada and the

00:08:41.060 United States and take less money to do it.

00:08:43.880 Nevertheless, I'm saying that right now, if we're going to have that health care discussion,

00:08:48.020 let's have it consistently.

00:08:49.500 So I do think there are both left-wing and right-wing premises that can be used to defeat

00:08:54.620 this legislation.

00:08:56.060 My position on this is that all of these things are secondary.

00:08:59.220 The most important one is that we should not be stratifying society.

00:09:02.500 Government should not be using coercive measures to mandate anything along the lines of a personal

00:09:08.660 health care choice.

00:09:09.840 And that is up to and including vaccination.

00:09:14.000 So it is just wrong.

00:09:15.980 And you could talk about, well, is it equal?

00:09:19.180 Is it fair?

00:09:20.220 Is it reasonable?

00:09:21.040 I mean, all of those are fine.

00:09:22.380 They're questions you can litigate, but they're political questions.

00:09:26.140 The fundamental moral question is, does the government have a right to coerce vaccination?

00:09:31.480 The answer is a resounding no.

00:09:34.960 And that's a point.

00:09:36.120 I mean, I don't know how you sell that point to people who at this stage in the pandemic

00:09:40.820 don't get it.

00:09:41.600 I mentioned on the last show, there are a lot of people who would say, well, you know,

00:09:45.340 I'm fully vaccinated.

00:09:46.320 What's it to me?

00:09:46.940 It doesn't affect me.

00:09:48.740 Your individual rights do affect you.

00:09:52.280 And it's the same as the big frustrations about privacy rights.

00:09:55.360 People who use that old trope, well, I've got nothing to hide.

00:09:58.260 That doesn't matter.

00:09:59.960 Your right to privacy is more important than individual things you might want to keep private.

00:10:05.040 Your right to decide for yourself whether you want to get vaccinated is more important

00:10:08.880 than what your individual choice is.

00:10:12.620 The choice to do something matters more than the substance and the specifics and the details

00:10:18.740 of the individual choice.

00:10:20.460 And so you have to look at the bigger picture.

00:10:23.160 You have to look at the bigger picture of these situations because you may agree with the

00:10:27.820 outcome, you may say, yes, Quebec wants there to be more people vaccinated.

00:10:32.240 Quebec is already claiming victory.

00:10:33.740 Apparently there was a surge in first dose appointments after they announced this tax.

00:10:38.220 So they're already saying, you can see in the news coverage here, they're already saying,

00:10:41.300 yeah, yay, we did it.

00:10:44.320 So that's not victory though.

00:10:46.900 That's not success.

00:10:47.960 I mean, that was like in Ontario and BC and all these other places when they put in the vaccine

00:10:52.680 passport and appointments went up.

00:10:54.780 The governments were saying, see, vaccine passports work.

00:10:58.620 It's not something over which you can claim victory when the measure you use to coerce someone

00:11:04.700 succeeds in exacting the behavior you were trying to coerce.

00:11:08.620 Yeah, that's the point of coercion.

00:11:10.460 We're not talking about whether it's effective.

00:11:12.800 We're talking about whether it's right or whether it's wrong.

00:11:15.640 Going door to door with needles and just tying people down who are unvaccinated and jabbing 1.00

00:11:22.200 them, that's a very effective way to do it.

00:11:24.600 That's totally effective.

00:11:25.740 It'll work.

00:11:26.160 It'll get people vaccinated.

00:11:27.400 That doesn't mean it's right.

00:11:29.940 So I would caution Quebec. 0.77

00:11:31.860 In fact, I would say to Quebecers outright, to the Quebec government and to Canadians wholesale 0.98

00:11:36.900 here, that just because you see vaccination go up doesn't mean it's working.

00:11:42.640 That's a sign of why it's not working.

00:11:46.360 Because people are feeling coerced by government.

00:11:48.820 People who may not have and probably at this stage wouldn't have gotten vaccinated on their

00:11:53.020 own.

00:11:53.680 And I know this may be perplexing, my position on this, because I stand by being pro-vaccination.

00:12:00.260 But I am vehemently against mandatory vaccination.

00:12:03.880 And I have zero issue reconciling those two positions.

00:12:06.820 Now, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association has come out, and I thought they were not as

00:12:13.880 fervent in their fight.

00:12:16.120 In fact, against the vaccine passports earlier on, I thought they were more silent.

00:12:20.660 Now, they have done some stuff and they have been speaking out a bit more, but they've come

00:12:24.080 out swinging against the Quebec vaccination tax.

00:12:27.000 Kara Zwiebel, who's a tremendous advocate for civil liberties, says of the Civil Liberties

00:12:32.180 Association, that our Charter recognizes individual autonomy over our bodies and medical decisions.

00:12:38.880 Allowing the government to levy fines on those who do not agree with the government's recommended

00:12:43.560 medical treatment is a deeply troubling proposition to justify this kind of restriction on constitutionally

00:12:51.260 protected rights.

00:12:52.080 The government must provide clear and compelling evidence and demonstrate that there were no

00:12:56.000 other reasonable alternatives.

00:12:57.640 Now, that right there is out of the Oaks test in the Charter, basically, which is how

00:13:01.840 governments defend their violations of your constitutional rights.

00:13:06.960 And this is a legally sound, a morally sound proposition.

00:13:10.600 The problem is, I don't know if it's politically sound.

00:13:14.740 And that's the danger here, is that there are a lot of people that think what Francois Legault

00:13:18.860 is doing in Quebec are hunky-dory, and they'd like to see other provinces doing the same.

00:13:23.380 A report in the Toronto Sun by Brian Lilly says a poll shows a majority across Canada back an

00:13:30.100 anti-vax tax.

00:13:32.060 It was by Maru Public Opinion said that 60% of Canadians would support the concept put

00:13:37.580 forward by Francois Legault.

00:13:39.940 The federal health minister, of course, has said that we need to move towards mandatory

00:13:43.940 vaccinations.

00:13:45.300 That was ultimately the spirit in which they did this poll.

00:13:47.920 They did this poll before Legault even announced it and found that 60% of Canadians were

00:13:53.200 saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, tax the unvaccinated. 0.95

00:13:57.040 And it's amazing when, I mean, if you study political theory at all, you'll know there's

00:14:01.120 this idea of consent to be governed.

00:14:03.200 And it's something that political theorists agonize over, of how do you govern a population

00:14:07.860 that has not necessarily consented to being governed because they've been born into a society

00:14:12.880 and whatever.

00:14:14.020 This is proof that I think a lot of that is unnecessary because people will consent to their

00:14:19.260 own oppression.

00:14:19.900 People will consent to a regime that tramples on their individual rights if they don't

00:14:25.860 think it affects them.

00:14:27.740 My goal on the show is to try to tell people who don't necessarily see that, that yeah,

00:14:32.020 it does affect you.

00:14:33.280 Even if the specific circumstances don't affect you, the precedent will.

00:14:39.420 The precedent will.

00:14:40.500 And by the way, I don't even think the precedent is that far off here because if Francois Legault's

00:14:45.400 regime is applying to three doses, it's very likely that when we come time to get our fourth

00:14:52.720 doses, this is now there.

00:14:55.120 And someone who has doses one, two, and three is facing the unvaccinated tax if they don't

00:14:59.820 get the fourth dose.

00:15:00.800 So even if you are triple dosed right now, this could very easily affect you if the boosters

00:15:05.900 become as perennial and permanent as they're certainly feeling.

00:15:09.580 I think it's in France where they're talking about boosters every four months.

00:15:13.620 So triennial or triannual, I always get the two mixed up, triennial or triannual boosters

00:15:18.180 in France.

00:15:19.680 Maybe it's just quarterly elsewhere.

00:15:21.420 Who knows?

00:15:21.860 Maybe it's down to monthly.

00:15:23.100 That's the direction it seems like we are headed.

00:15:26.080 So I feel and I fear that it is politically saleable to start throwing up all these hurdles

00:15:33.100 and roadblocks and restrictions on the unvaccinated who are a minority group.

00:15:37.360 I mentioned in my newsletter last week that government right now has no choice.

00:15:42.180 Government's legitimacy is absolutely shattered.

00:15:45.440 So it has no choice but to try to find a population and scapegoat it for their problems.

00:15:50.980 And for Justin Trudeau, that's the unvaccinated.

00:15:53.000 For Francois Legault, that's the unvaccinated.

00:15:55.200 They're looking at this group and saying, well, don't look at us and our advice that was

00:15:58.720 wrong and our bungled border closure and our mismatched guidance and flip-flops on masks.

00:16:04.060 Don't look at all that.

00:16:05.100 Look at these people.

00:16:06.040 Blame them.

00:16:07.400 Blame them.

00:16:08.280 Blame them for it.

00:16:09.220 All the problems you have, all the lockdowns.

00:16:11.080 It's not us.

00:16:11.820 It's them.

00:16:13.600 Premiers are doing this.

00:16:14.580 They're saying, no, no, no.

00:16:15.220 We didn't lock you down.

00:16:16.700 These people locked you.

00:16:17.920 We only did it because they made us.

00:16:19.580 These people over there are the problem.

00:16:23.280 And it's working.

00:16:24.580 It's working.

00:16:25.340 This division in society is working.

00:16:27.400 Government leaders are sowing this division, driving wedges between the vaccinated and the

00:16:32.180 unvaccinated because they are trying to and succeeding at scapegoating unvaccinated people

00:16:37.260 for their own public policy failings.

00:16:39.900 Here's my point on this.

00:16:43.460 Why not just say, we believe vaccination is the way to go.

00:16:48.520 We believe in the science supports that vaccination protects you.

00:16:51.980 We've been telling you for two years about this.

00:16:54.220 We were telling you when we were developing the vaccination.

00:16:56.880 You've seen it.

00:16:57.560 You've seen a year of your friends getting vaccinated.

00:16:59.940 If you don't want it, that's on you.

00:17:01.900 Just deal with it.

00:17:03.020 Just deal with it.

00:17:05.660 Why not do that?

00:17:07.560 Why not do that?

00:17:08.300 Why not let people make their own decisions and be held accountable for those decisions?

00:17:15.140 Now, you may say, think it sounds like a callous or uncompassionate policy, but it's

00:17:20.820 better than the alternative, which is government making these decisions for people.

00:17:24.500 Because freedom to make decisions is also the obligation, the responsibility to deal with

00:17:30.980 the consequences of those decisions.

00:17:33.780 And the only way you can get rid of that responsibility and get rid of those consequences

00:17:38.080 is by getting rid of the choice itself.

00:17:41.120 And that's the path that government is trying to do here.

00:17:44.380 And that harms every Canadian.

00:17:47.240 Because all of a sudden you have no choice.

00:17:49.080 You have no ability to make your own decisions.

00:17:50.920 You cannot thrive as an individual.

00:17:52.960 In fact, with lockdowns, a lot of people are barely surviving as individuals, let alone

00:17:57.260 as a society.

00:17:59.540 So what we're seeing from government now is this insistence that we're going to blame

00:18:05.420 this group, yet also deny them the right to just do what they want after two years,

00:18:12.820 which is the hallmark of being in a liberal society.

00:18:15.140 That the individual is sovereign.

00:18:17.120 Your body does not belong to the state.

00:18:19.020 Your body belongs to you.

00:18:21.220 And to go back to that polling for a moment, like I said, I fear that's correct.

00:18:28.180 I fear that we are headed towards a period where most Canadians would quite easily throw

00:18:32.880 their own liberties under the bus just despite their neighbor they may not like.

00:18:38.620 Doug Ford had come out and said that he's not planning to go the road of the vax tax.

00:18:43.120 This is that clip.

00:18:44.000 The theme is get vaxed.

00:18:46.540 Should we follow Premier Legault's vax attacks?

00:18:51.700 Yeah, Jamie.

00:18:52.280 We're taking a different approach.

00:18:54.640 We aren't going down that road.

00:18:56.460 We're going to take a different approach.

00:18:57.780 But I implore.

00:18:59.200 I ask.

00:18:59.860 I beg.

00:19:00.660 Every single person that's not vaccinated, please protect yourself.

00:19:04.800 Protect your family.

00:19:05.960 Protect co-workers.

00:19:07.420 Please get your vaccination.

00:19:08.840 And you may say, OK, great.

00:19:10.840 Yeah, no one else is following along with what Francois Legault is doing.

00:19:14.280 But Doug Ford was also the guy who said this.

00:19:17.200 Will your government provide an actual card or proof of vaccination?

00:19:21.260 And if not, why not?

00:19:22.560 Well, I've never believed in proof.

00:19:24.880 Everyone gets their proof when they get the vaccination.

00:19:27.280 You're right.

00:19:27.640 Anything can be fraudulent.

00:19:28.840 Right down from money to certifications.

00:19:32.400 I just know we aren't doing it.

00:19:33.780 Simple as that.

00:19:34.760 And we're just going to move forward now.

00:19:38.060 If it's federal, getting across the border, that's up to the federal government.

00:19:42.880 We'll see what they decide to do.

00:19:44.600 I'll be talking to the prime minister tonight.

00:19:46.640 But the answer is no.

00:19:48.260 We aren't going to do it.

00:19:49.060 We aren't going to have a split society.

00:19:50.980 And yeah, so he said that.

00:19:52.660 And here we are.

00:19:53.420 It is January 2022.

00:19:54.960 The vaccine passport exists and still exists, even though it was supposed to be gone by now.

00:19:59.920 So I am not relaxing and resting on my laurels when all of these politicians across the country

00:20:07.280 say at this particular moment in time that they don't plan on doing what Quebec is doing.

00:20:11.760 They don't plan on doing what Jean-Yves Duclos is doing.

00:20:14.620 I said last week, politicians need to be standing up loudly and denouncing and not just saying

00:20:19.160 we're not doing it.

00:20:20.960 But we are not.

00:20:22.020 We are never.

00:20:22.800 No one should ever do it.

00:20:24.040 And if anyone does, they should resign and actually start putting some stakes,

00:20:27.840 putting some stakes there so that if they go back on it, we can tell them, hey, you made

00:20:33.140 a promise.

00:20:34.480 I'm not optimistic of it, but that's what I would like to see emerge from this.

00:20:38.700 We've got to take a quick break.

00:20:40.600 When we come back, we'll talk to conservative and former MP Kenny Chu.

00:20:44.660 Stay tuned.

00:20:48.340 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:20:54.220 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:20:57.840 There was a story bubbling around during the last election in August and September of 2021

00:21:03.660 that didn't get a huge amount of national coverage.

00:21:07.640 And even now, I would say it hasn't gotten a huge amount.

00:21:10.000 More and more people are starting to talk about it.

00:21:12.360 But this was a campaign that was taking place, a disinformation campaign against conservative

00:21:17.560 candidate at the time, Kenny Chu.

00:21:20.140 He was seeking re-election.

00:21:21.300 He had been a strong and vocal supporter of Canada and democracy and human rights and

00:21:27.260 had thus criticized the Chinese regime, which raised the ire of the Chinese regime.

00:21:33.240 There were a number of messages swirling around in WeChat and elsewhere criticizing and saying

00:21:39.380 things that were just patently untrue about Kenny Chu.

00:21:41.660 And there were a lot of people that were raising questions, talking about whether this might

00:21:46.720 have had the fingerprints of a state actor, namely China.

00:21:50.280 Not just people in the Chinese diaspora talking, but something more orchestrated and organized

00:21:55.940 that could have been taking place.

00:21:58.380 Now, this is just one simple sliver of how foreign influence can take place.

00:22:04.820 Misinformation, disinformation campaigns are a hallmark of foreign interference.

00:22:10.440 It's part of the spy manual.

00:22:12.400 If you are trying to upend a regime in another part of the world, you've got to get people 0.99

00:22:16.780 talking, give a movement, give an idea a life of its own, which is what happens when

00:22:21.180 these messages start swirling around in WeChat.

00:22:23.820 And by the way, I ran as a candidate in 2018 in the provincial election in Ontario.

00:22:28.840 I had WeChat, so I'm sure the Chinese regime had a file for me because it's a great way 1.00

00:22:33.420 to connect with people who don't really use other forms of social media.

00:22:37.800 The Chinese community is very conservative, very vocal.

00:22:41.420 So the problem is not Chinese people.

00:22:43.280 The problem is not WeChat.

00:22:44.720 The problem is whether the Chinese diaspora and WeChat were being used by the Chinese regime

00:22:50.660 or another actor to sow discord and whether that ultimately cost Kenny Chu, who was a good

00:22:56.880 member of parliament, his seat.

00:22:58.640 I want to talk about this in a bit more detail here because there was a report that came out last

00:23:02.760 week in policy options.

00:23:04.880 Researchers from McGill have found there's evidence to suggest Kenny Chu was directly

00:23:09.600 targeted by foreign interference.

00:23:12.080 I want to talk to the former conservative member of parliament directly here.

00:23:15.660 Kenny Chu joins me on the line.

00:23:17.420 Kenny, it's good to talk to you.

00:23:18.800 Thanks for coming on today.

00:23:20.340 Hi, Andrew.

00:23:20.820 Thank you for inviting me.

00:23:23.120 So let me ask you first what all of this is about, because I know that you were a conservative

00:23:28.080 MP, we had a lot of concerns that people had raised right after the election that in your

00:23:33.900 seat and in some other seats, it seemed like there was some targeted misinformation going

00:23:39.420 on that we could trace back to the Chinese regime.

00:23:42.640 But I mean, what's the backstory here?

00:23:44.440 What's actually happened?

00:23:46.460 Well, in fact, Andrew, this is not something new.

00:23:49.720 And this is not happening during the election, nor while I was a member of parliament.

00:23:56.440 In fact, the Canadian Security Intelligence Agency, as well as the parliament's National

00:24:02.660 Security Intelligence Committee, they've been they've been both sounding the alarm as early

00:24:09.500 as more than 10 years ago in 2011.

00:24:12.880 CESA's head Richard Fathen has already tabled concerns and also mentioned that China, Russia,

00:24:19.540 and Iran are actively trying to infiltrate and also impacting Canada.

00:24:25.900 And this is something that Canadians should take note.

00:24:29.160 And the parliamentarians, the legislators should take responsibility to legislate to

00:24:36.360 safeguard our country.

00:24:38.380 And that's basically the incentive behind my private member bill, Bill C-282, in the last

00:24:45.400 session of parliament.

00:24:46.080 So that bill, C-282, it was supposed to go after these sorts of influence campaigns in

00:24:53.820 some way.

00:24:54.420 What was it actually going to achieve?

00:24:55.980 What was it going to target?

00:24:57.920 Right.

00:24:58.440 In 1938, the United States actually established something called FARA, the Foreign Agents Registry

00:25:06.020 Act.

00:25:06.760 And in 2017, the Australians did something similar.

00:25:11.860 There is a little bit different.

00:25:14.100 It's the Foreign Interference Registry.

00:25:19.500 And my bill was basically modeling after the Australians and, you know, in hoping that Canada

00:25:26.000 will be able to safeguard.

00:25:27.220 The bill itself, if you look at it, Andrew, it's quite innocuous.

00:25:32.300 And if you, some critics may actually say that it doesn't achieve much.

00:25:37.560 And their criticism is actually right, because what I want is just the transparency.

00:25:42.540 People who work for a foreign government or agent to influence our legislators, our member of

00:25:52.660 parliament, senators, or other power office, they can continue to do that, to ask them to

00:25:59.340 change some bills, to ask them to grant some grants, to do exactly what they want.

00:26:06.260 And all my bill was asking is be transparent, leave it in the air, under the sun.

00:26:11.900 It's the best disinfectant.

00:26:14.600 And they will allow journalists such as yourself and True North to examine what's in the deal.

00:26:24.380 And therefore, they will be able to let Canadians to determine whether these interference and

00:26:30.240 influence are legitimate or not.

00:26:32.420 So if, as you say, your bill wasn't actually going to change this, it wasn't going to stop

00:26:38.840 it, it was just going to shine a light on it, is that enough?

00:26:41.980 I mean, is that actually the kind of thing that would disrupt this misinformation, prevent

00:26:46.680 it from taking place, and the disinformation influence and all these related issues that

00:26:50.940 we're really tackling here?

00:26:52.940 You know, give you a totally hypothetical example here.

00:26:56.860 Let's say the new regime in Afghanistan, they've decided to ask the Canadian government to remove

00:27:04.780 them from the terrorist list, terrorist nations list.

00:27:08.620 And therefore, they empower some between some Afghans or non-Afghans, actually, or maybe just

00:27:16.920 a white guy, to connect them with the Canadian senators and member of parliaments, so that they

00:27:24.120 can lobby these government officials to remove the Taliban from the terrorist list.

00:27:31.880 And that would be something that my private member bill would capture.

00:27:35.960 And all they have to do is just register the fact that they are operating under the Afghan 0.58

00:27:42.460 Taliban regime, and they're lobbying certain MPs or senators or government officials.

00:27:48.460 So why is it that this bill, and let me take a step back here, I don't think it was just

00:27:55.060 this bill that put you on the radar if we're talking about Chinese regime interference, because

00:27:59.760 I know you've been a very strong critic of Chinese human rights abuses, you've been a

00:28:04.380 big proponent of democracy, so this is not just an isolated incident, this is part of what's

00:28:10.020 really been for you a long period of trying to push for accountability and transparency in

00:28:14.640 human rights.

00:28:17.200 Well, Andrew, I was a member of parliament for Canadian.

00:28:24.240 I wasn't a member of parliament for the anti-Chinese Communist Party people or activists.

00:28:30.960 My interest is to protect my Canadian compatriots first and foremost, and then also there are

00:28:36.960 Canadian core values that we believe we hold up to, and that's why as the Vice Chair for the

00:28:41.920 subcommittee of international human rights, I've been speaking up for the Rohingyas, you know, how they

00:28:49.280 were being treated by Burma, and the Yashidis, how they were being treated by the Syrians, but also as

00:28:58.000 well, you know, how the Hong Kongers and the Uyghurs are being treated by the Chinese Communist Party as

00:29:06.320 well. So, yes, I believe in democracy, I believe in representative democracy, and therefore I'm just

00:29:14.080 speaking as a member of parliament, as a parliamentarian, you know, advocating for for Canadian values for my

00:29:23.440 constituents in CIFS.

00:29:24.880 Do you think that the influence here that we're talking about cost you your seat, or do you think it was

00:29:31.680 something that was there, and there's, you know, not really a way to quantify how big an effect it had at the

00:29:36.880 polling station?

00:29:38.960 Andrew, there are a

00:29:41.040 merits of

00:29:42.640 factors and reasons

00:29:45.520 how one actually lost or won a campaign, and I'm not saying, I'm not saying I'm not blaming

00:29:51.920 it's the Chinese Communist Party that cost my seat, but in an election of a very tight race,

00:29:59.680 of under the pandemic, when voters turnout was very low, a slight change in electorate, slight influence,

00:30:09.840 slight interference, could actually make the result one way or the other. And that's what I'm saying,

00:30:15.840 across the country, China has realized that they could make all these fine tweets, 0.74

00:30:20.480 and fine tune. And by doing that in many ridings across the country, they would be able to

00:30:27.360 exert some power that they would not have allowed any foreign nations to have in their own country.

00:30:35.920 They now even jail people just for talking to foreigners and foreign correspondents in Hong Kong,

00:30:42.720 and also elsewhere in Canada and China. And so what I'm trying to say is this is a free land.

00:30:52.560 So what we, what we as Canada and Canadian need to do, it's to protect our own interests,

00:30:58.000 protect our country. And that's what I was hoping that the bill will be able to do to let Canadians to

00:31:04.240 enjoy the freedom that they continue to have, if they decided that they want to act on behalf of

00:31:08.960 foreign countries. And these countries happen to be listed by the bureaucrats, by the way,

00:31:15.440 as one of the nations that are subject to my Foreign Influence Act. Well, then all they have to do

00:31:20.560 is just be transparent and show it to Canadians, Canadians media, that they, why they are doing it,

00:31:26.800 what they have done, and let the public decide and judge.

00:31:30.400 Do you, going back to your experience in BC, did you feel, did you, were you aware of what was

00:31:37.680 happening during the election? Were you seeing and hearing that this misinformation campaign

00:31:43.120 against you was going on and, and thinking, yeah, this is, this is something quite big that's taking place?

00:31:50.320 I noticed something happens way back at the beginning of my term as a member of parliament.

00:31:56.560 I was invited to monitor to be part of the elections monitoring mission in Hong Kong, Hong Kong being

00:32:06.400 the largest cities outside of Canada with Canadians being, you know, having 300,000 Canadian passport

00:32:14.640 holders residing there. I figured that an election would provide, you know, a political resolution to

00:32:22.720 the struggles that they have in 2019. But as soon as I returned from Hong Kong, I started realizing

00:32:29.600 that something is actually working, some powers were actually working behind the scene. And

00:32:36.560 their supporters of ours, supporter of mine, who used to in previous election volunteer, they start

00:32:44.560 telling us that, no, you're, if you support these Hong Kong activists, they call it rioters,

00:32:50.320 then, then we're not going to support you. But a matter of fact is, I didn't show my support for

00:32:54.640 Hong Kong activists or not. It's just that we, we decided we realized that the political resolution

00:33:01.840 will be a way out for the situation in Hong Kong. But anyway, so we start losing friends. And throughout

00:33:09.360 the pandemic, there are many, as you probably be aware, many narratives that are saying, China only

00:33:18.320 country that are speaking up for Chinese around the world. And when facing anti Asian racism, China,

00:33:24.640 it's doing its job and advocating for all Chinese in around the world, including Canadian Chinese. And

00:33:32.560 these are the narratives. These are the operation that behind the scene, we know that the CCP, the United

00:33:39.920 Front Department are working very hard. They are driving a wedge in Canadian society, they are painting

00:33:48.400 everybody as white supremacists, anti Asian, and then only the CCP, only China can speak on behalf of all

00:33:59.200 Chinese Canadians. I reject that I object that, you know, Canadian, it's definitely living in a free

00:34:06.960 society where we're even we're free. This not this is not a perfect country. Let me be clear, racism did

00:34:15.840 exist. But in our society that we're in in 2022. Now, I reject the idea that foreign powers somehow is

00:34:24.720 the only one that can advocate for Canadian over any race, let alone of Chinese descent.

00:34:32.640 So I know it's difficult to quantify, but how much influence how much of a foothold do you think China

00:34:38.000 has in our politicians and in our leaders right now? I think you can draw on previous examples.

00:34:48.800 The Globe and Mail, for example, were sued by on an Ontario minister, just because of setting up a

00:34:57.120 report outlining how he was under the influence of the communist Chinese. I remember that. Yeah,

00:35:03.600 it was quite a big story. And there has also been incidents that tells us that China is exerting its

00:35:12.320 power and influence in the greater Vancouver area and greater Toronto area. And this last election,

00:35:18.640 we definitely have seen how it can use multi prong approach, very sophisticated approach to try to

00:35:27.040 infiltrate and influence the thinking of Chinese Canadian of Chinese descent. For example, there's a 0.99

00:35:33.680 social media application called WeChat. And WeChat is not it's available in the Western free world. But

00:35:42.320 it's the only social media messaging app that is available in China that is authorized. Uighur Chinese

00:35:50.400 were put in jail for installing WhatsApp in their in on their cell phone. So WeChat, it's definitely

00:35:59.920 something that, you know, authoritarian regime like China would love to have control. It controls

00:36:07.280 what what is posted on the social media, what is being discussed, it allows them to track people. And

00:36:14.240 WeChat in the last election posted articles that, you know, from anonymous sources that we have no

00:36:20.320 a reason to there are no there are no power for Canadians to trace and hold the author, the author to

00:36:29.040 account. These articles were spreading not just disinformation, but completely false falsified

00:36:38.800 information. And these are things like, for example, we're trained by private member bill, Bill C 282,

00:36:44.240 as anti Chinese and it's hating and causing Chinese Canadians, all kinds of troubles in the future, 0.74

00:36:52.560 etc, etc. The problem is, these are these are articles and information spread in

00:37:02.800 foreign control, tightly controlled social media app. But the problem goes further in the in the

00:37:09.440 Canadian airwaves CRTC controlled airwaves supposed to be regulated. There have been also ethnic Chinese

00:37:17.280 radio stations that are, you know, there are basically censoring their own commentary without,

00:37:25.040 you know, reporting on, you know, what, you know, MP Kenny Chu C 282 bill is really is. So by keeping

00:37:34.800 themselves silence, they, they pretty much are helping and providing assistance to to these regimes behind

00:37:41.040 the scene. But then worse, Andrew, is that there are also again, locally broadcasted CRTC licensed radio

00:37:51.120 stations of ethnic Chinese, they are helping to spread these same disinformation and false information and 0.94

00:38:00.000 false accusations. Effectively, they're being used as another tool by these foreign actors. 0.97

00:38:06.640 Well, it's no, it's such a huge issue. And I find so often it flies under the radar of the coverage

00:38:12.480 it very richly needs. The Globe and Mail has been very strong on this. But again, I think we need to see

00:38:17.280 a lot more exposure on this. Kenny Chu, former Conservative Member of Parliament. Good to talk to you. Thanks

00:38:22.320 for your work on this. I truly appreciate it. Well, thank you, Andrew. All the best to you.

00:38:26.960 Thank you very much, Kenny Chu. That does it for us. For today, we will be back with a weekend edition

00:38:32.880 of the show looking at independent media in Canada. This was a lot of fun to do. It's already recorded.

00:38:38.520 It was a lot of fun. You don't want to miss that. And then back next week with regular full strength

00:38:42.700 edition of the Andrew Lawton Show. So I hope we'll see you then. Thank you. God bless and good day to you all.

00:38:47.920 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:38:56.960 www.tnc.news.tv

00:39:08.420 .

Juno News - January 14, 2022

Quebec's tax on the unvaccinated is coercive, totalitarian, and just plain wrong

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