00:00:00.000Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:05.200This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:10.520Coming up, Conservative leadership candidate Scott Aitchison on supply management, affordability, inflation, and consensus.
00:00:18.500The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:22.240Welcome to the Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:27.320We've been covering over the last few weeks the Conservative leadership race.
00:00:31.700We've extended invitations to all of the candidates as they've announced and as they're making their way onto the ballot.
00:00:37.760And we've been trying to give them all an opportunity to come on and one-on-one talk about their campaigns, the issues.
00:00:43.460And we'll have to do another round soon.
00:00:45.460We've had good success so far, almost all of the candidates.
00:00:49.340We're still waiting on two more who have not yet agreed to sit down, but hopefully they will soon.
00:00:54.420In any case, today we bring you the next in that series, Scott Aitchison, who is a two-term Member of Parliament representing Parry Sound Muskoka
00:01:02.560and has run a very policy-heavy leadership campaign so far, which means it's great for me because we have lots to talk about
00:01:09.560just looking at the announcements he's put forward, but also some other issues that have come up during the race.
00:01:15.320My great privilege to have Scott Aitchison joining me now.
00:01:18.180Scott, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on today.
00:01:20.340Hey, Andrew, thank you for the opportunity. This is actually a thrill for me.
00:01:25.740Oh, good. Well, I'm glad to have you on here. Hopefully you'll still think that by the end of it.
00:01:30.500I know this leadership race did catch a lot of people by surprise.
00:01:35.020It wasn't something that was being planned for quite a while, but why did you decide that you wanted to become
00:01:41.000not only the leader of the Conservative Party, but ultimately the Prime Minister?
00:01:44.780Well, I have a lot of years of experience in leadership at the municipal level, particularly.
00:01:51.660I tell people I kind of grew up on the front page of the local paper in Huntsville.
00:01:56.060I served as the mayor of Huntsville the last five years before becoming elected to Ottawa.
00:02:01.800And I guess one of the things that shocked me the most is the sort of divisive rhetoric and the bickering
00:02:07.360that goes on in Ottawa. I just feel very strongly that what's missing in Ottawa is real leadership.
00:02:13.680I believe that leadership is about empowering and engaging and inspiring the people around you to great things.
00:02:19.860And that's the kind of thing that we did as I certainly did as a mayor.
00:02:23.600And I think Ottawa could use a bit of that as well. And so that's why I'm running.
00:02:27.640I have a lot of experience and none of the baggage of, you know, years of Ottawa.
00:02:31.880We often hear, and I think for good reason, this idea of the Conservative Party as the big blue tent.
00:02:38.540In it you have your libertarians, your social conservatives, your red Tories, your blue Tories.
00:02:43.800We have people that are very concerned about vaccine mandates, foreign policy.
00:02:47.940Where do you fit yourself in that big blue tent?
00:02:51.160What sort of conservative do you define yourself as?
00:02:54.820Well, I guess I don't define myself as anything in particular.
00:02:57.820I think that it's important that we recognize that we're all conservatives and that unity of our party doesn't mean uniformity, but we have to listen to each other.
00:03:07.000We have to engage with each other and our leadership has to engage with all members and all different stripes of conservative.
00:03:16.120And that way, you know, we get, we at least have to respect each other.
00:03:19.160And that's, that's what I believe is missing oftentimes in our, in our movement.
00:03:37.520What do you feel is the Conservative Party's place in Canadian politics right now?
00:03:42.120Well, I think that, I think that what, what we need to do is present a, a clear and concise message to all Canadians, not just conservative, but to all Canadians.
00:03:51.320I, I believe that fundamentally Canadians really do want a responsible government.
00:03:56.000They want a reasonable fiscal policy that makes sure that we're not, you know, boring against our children and grandchildren's future.
00:04:02.760They want to make sure that they have equality of opportunity in this country and that government gets out of their way when it's possible.
00:04:09.860I believe that government should be a place that's not all things to all people, but it is a place where nobody gets left behind.
00:04:17.560And I believe Conservatives believe that as well, that, that we actually lift up those most vulnerable in our society and, and make sure that the opportunities are there for Canadians to live their, their lives and, and achieve their goals and their dreams.
00:04:33.440I know you've been very aggressive in putting out policy on a lot of key issues in, in the last few days.
00:04:40.880This is one that I think pretty much every Canadian is seeing, certainly every young Canadian is seeing, and it's become in a lot of ways, an issue without a solution.
00:04:49.940I mean, government federally and provincially talk about housing.
00:04:53.420What is the approach that you want to take on this?
00:04:57.200Well, I, I think that part of the problem, and this comes from my experience in the municipal realm, there are a lot of impediments to getting housing built, particularly at the municipal level.
00:05:05.920I think exclusionary zoning is one of the key problems now, of course, the federal government is not involved in municipal planning or zoning, but the municipal, the federal government does have a role to play in making sure that municipalities and provinces are doing everything they can and removing the barriers to getting more units built.
00:05:24.920And so I think that the federal government can take leadership here by tying federal funding dollars for infrastructure projects directly to results on getting units built.
00:05:37.940It's, it's, it's, it's a way that we can, we can help make sure, uh, that we're all hands on deck, that we're working together with all levels of government and with the private sector to get units built.
00:05:52.940Uh, and we see for years now, uh, a liberal government that is absolutely amazing at announcing billions of dollars, but not anywhere close to delivering on getting and getting results.
00:06:06.940The problem with housing plans, as I see it, is that anyone who has a home is going to be very resistant to a policy which effectively is going to devalue it.
00:06:15.940I mean, that's the problem right now is that you have a seller's market, you've got people that are sitting on these giant cash cows for their retirement or for investment.
00:06:22.940So how do you, on one hand, get home affordability through supply, but on the other hand, don't, uh, terrify people that are homeowners that, uh, they're not going to be able to make as much money on this thing when they sell it.
00:06:33.940Well, I think that what we need to do is we need to look at the entire spectrum of housing.
00:06:37.940This is about first time home buyers, but it's also about, uh, social housing and supportive housing and affordable rentals.
00:06:45.940There there's a whole spectrum of housing need in this country.
00:06:49.940We need more supply on, on all ends of this spectrum.
00:06:52.940Uh, and, and we're not, we're not about devaluing people's homes.
00:06:57.940We're about getting more supply into the market to make it more accessible for more Canadians.
00:07:04.940Just continuing along with affordability, the carbon tax went up again this month, despite Canadians dealing with record inflation.
00:07:12.940You you're saying absolutely no to a carbon tax, correct?
00:07:16.940I've been opposed to a carbon tax from the get-go because it unfairly penalizes those most vulnerable in our society.
00:07:22.940People on fixed incomes, lower income Canadians.
00:07:25.940Uh, it, it particularly penalizes rural Canadians, uh, and particularly rural Canadians that, that work maybe two or three part-time jobs.
00:07:33.940I can give you examples of people in Paris on Muskoka, you know, that have to work in a couple of different jobs just to make ends meet.
00:07:40.940And, and it's not just more expensive for them to get to their job.
00:07:43.940It's more expensive for them to buy groceries.
00:07:45.940It's more expensive for them to keep their homes.
00:07:48.940Uh, when you live in a rural area, you don't, you don't have a lot of different options.
00:07:52.940And when you literally live paycheck to paycheck, that paycheck dwindling just makes life more expensive.
00:07:57.940So I think that a, that a carbon tax actually just punishes Canadians.
00:08:01.940I believe that we need to incentivize Canadians and help Canadians reduce their footprint.
00:08:06.940And there are countless technologies that, that, that we have now, and that we haven't even invented yet that will help us reduce our footprint, do our part in the world.
00:08:15.940And then also take that technology and sell it to the rest of the world to help the rest of the world do their part as well.
00:08:21.940Now you ran though, in September for a party that put forward a price on carbon.
00:08:26.940So how do you square that with what you're saying now?
00:08:29.940Well, I think that it's important to be part of a team.
00:08:32.940And I obviously wanted to work as part of the team.
00:08:34.940Uh, it wasn't, uh, my perfect scenario, obviously.
00:08:37.940And, and I think fundamentally we need to change that.
00:08:40.940And that's why I'm offering that today.
00:08:44.940Were you trying to prevent your party from going down that road?
00:08:48.940Yeah, I, I think there were a lot of voices in caucus.
00:08:51.940Uh, what I said at the time was that, you know, at least it was a, at least it was a tool that, you know, was maybe able to help Canadians keep some of their credits and they could use it to help themselves reduce their footprint as opposed to a big government program that takes money from you and gives it to somebody else.
00:09:07.940Uh, I, I, I ideally believe that no carbon tax help Canadians reduce their footprint, make life more affordable.
00:09:16.940As we talk about inflation more broadly, an issue that is affecting, I mean, all of these things are interconnected when they're really about cost of living.
00:09:23.940And this is an issue that I think goes beyond the left, right divide.
00:09:28.940But again, not everyone can agree on, on solutions.
00:09:31.940I know Pierre Polyev, for example, uh, your competitor in this race has been heavily criticized for, uh, taking aim at, uh, the printing of money and at central banking.
00:09:40.940What's the, the remedy that you would bring to inflation specifically if there's one, unless your answer, which is, I think defensible is just to focus on these other areas like the carbon tax, like housing and, and so on.
00:09:52.940But, but is there an answer that you believe is within the purview of a, of an HSN government to deal with inflation head on?
00:09:59.940Well, I think it's all the things I've mentioned, like you said, Andrew, but it's also, it's also about reining in government spending.
00:10:04.940There's no question that, uh, you know, government spending has an impact.
00:10:08.940Government borrowing has an impact on the affordability of everyday life for Canadians.
00:10:12.940Uh, and we need a responsible conservative government that will, that will responsibly bring down that borrowing and, and get our fiscal house in order.
00:10:23.940I, I must admit, I was quite surprised when I saw earlier this week, uh, your campaign come out with a very clear cut pledge to end supply management.
00:10:31.940This is specifically on dairy, the policy that has been keeping, uh, Canadian dairy prices inflated for, I think the better part of 50 years now.
00:10:39.940Um, but this has become the third rail in, in Canadian politics for, for so many people, especially in the conservative party where you have a lot of rural ridings, heavily represented.
00:10:49.940Uh, by people that have a lot of voters that are in the dairy farming business here.
00:10:54.940So why are you, why are you going there?
00:11:34.940And so I, you know, we have some of the best, uh, dairy farms, best farms in the world.
00:11:40.940There's no reason why they can't compete and, and be given the opportunity to compete on the world stage while also making life more affordable for Canadians who are struggling to get by because of carbon taxes, because of inflation, because of the dairy commission increasing prices yet again.
00:11:55.940And they're eight, they're planning to increase another 8.4%. Canadians can't afford this.
00:12:00.940It's a bad policy that needs to change.
00:12:02.940At the risk of generalizing, I can say in, in five years of covering this, I, I've not met a single dairy farmer that would support what you're proposing.
00:12:12.940How are you going to make that case to dairy farmers that think this is their lifeblood?
00:12:16.940This is the only way that they're able to stay solvent.
00:12:19.940Well, I always take a collaborative approach.
00:12:22.940It's obviously going to take a little bit of time to unwind a 50 year old policy.
00:12:27.940Uh, and I think that obviously starts with negotiation and discussions with farmers about how we make this process occur.
00:12:33.940Uh, but there's, there's, there's a collaborative approach to be had here that can actually give farmers huge opportunity, uh, to market their products around the world and make life more affordable for Canadians.
00:12:44.940Now you are proposing to compensate them for their quota.
00:12:48.940How much is that going to cost and where's that money coming from?
00:12:53.940Well, I, I, again, I, it starts with some negotiation and discussion with farmers, what the quotas are worth, uh, what that transition looks like is all part of that negotiation.
00:13:03.940So I don't have an exact number for you, but it's, it will be some short-term pain for some very long-term gain and opportunities for farmers, uh, and more affordable life for Canadians.
00:13:13.940Uh, just looking broadly, when, when you talk about the conservative coalition here, I've met a lot of conservative members of parliament that privately agree with exactly what you're saying right now, but publicly wouldn't go near it for, for all the reasons we've talked about here.
00:13:27.940So why is this issue so challenging for conservatives to take what I think is pretty clearly the principled free market position on publicly?
00:13:35.940Well, I, I think it's partly what the problem is with our politics.
00:13:39.940It's a, it's a, it's about slicing and dicing the electorate to make sure we can win votes here and win votes there.
00:13:44.940Uh, what I'm talking about is real leadership, making tough decisions that are the right decisions, uh, with a focus always on making life easier and more affordable for all Canadians, not just a few.
00:13:54.940Uh, that's, what's fundamentally what this is about, what my leadership will be about and what I think government should be about.
00:14:03.940We've seen a fair bit of bickering among a couple of your competitors, notably, uh, Mr. Polyev and Mr. Charest about the freedom convoy.
00:14:11.940And I saw a comment you made to Evan Solomon about how you're not in this race to talk about your, your competitors, but, but I will ask you about the merits of, of this debate here.
00:14:20.940I mean, the freedom convoy was, I think, a fairly, uh, contentious one within the conservative party and the conservative movement.
00:14:26.940I know you've said you're supporting ending all mandates, but, but what's your view of, of the convoy protests?
00:14:33.940Well, at the time it started, I, my comment was that I felt very strongly that the government ignored it.
00:14:39.940Uh, you know, it would be an error, a mistake to ignore it.
00:14:43.940Uh, the fact of the matter is that wasn't just about trucker mandates.
00:14:47.940I think it represented a much broader frustration and anger, uh, in the Canadian public.
00:14:53.940Uh, real leadership wouldn't have permitted the circumstances for that kind of frustration to get that bad in the first place.
00:15:00.940Uh, I said all along that the government should, you know, should reach out and, and try to discuss the issues that, you know, a lot of these folks felt were really important.
00:15:09.940That said, every Canadian has a right to peaceful legal protest, but I don't believe that we have a right to block city streets and block people's homes for weeks on end with our vehicles.
00:15:20.940I believe it had to end, uh, the point had been made and it was time to move on.
00:15:24.940Uh, I fundamentally think that what, what was missing there was leadership.
00:15:28.940It was a lack of leadership on the government's part.
00:15:31.940Uh, and, and this is the thing you, you have to make sure that you engage with people, even those you disagree with.
00:15:37.940You can't just demonize one group of Canadians to appeal to another.
00:15:42.940That's what we've seen with this government.
00:15:44.940We, you know, you saw Justin Trudeau in the last election campaign when he saw political opportunity, demonize the unvaccinated to appeal to the vaccinated.
00:15:53.940Blame somebody else for your lot in life.
00:15:55.940That that's the way, that's the way you win votes.
00:15:59.940It's not the way you build a country though.
00:16:03.940Uh, and, and, and what happened with that convoy was a lack of leadership and a divisive tone from our prime minister that tried to drive a wedge between Canadians.
00:16:14.940I would be a prime minister that brings Canadians together.
00:16:17.940How difficult is it to be a consensus builder, which seems to be the theme of your approach to this campaign in what is for the reasons you've just mentioned a very polarized political climate in this country, not just over vaccination status.
00:16:31.940Although I think that has certainly inflamed a lot of this.
00:16:35.940I, I actually think that being a consensus builder, uh, is not hard work, but you have to be committed to it and you have to engage and listen and respect everybody.
00:16:46.940And that hap that has to happen in our party.
00:16:49.940That has to happen in our party above all else.
00:16:52.940How will Canadians ever trust us with, with, with the keys to, to, to government?
00:16:58.940If we can't work well amongst ourselves, if we can't respect each other, then there's no way they're going to trust us to govern.
00:17:33.940It's important for us all to talk to each other.
00:17:36.940It's important for us to listen to each other.
00:17:38.940As I say, we're not always going to agree on every topic, but we have to listen to each other.
00:17:42.940And does that extend just to caucus discussions or does that extend also to free votes on matters of conscience that come before the House?
00:17:50.940I'm on the record as saying I think there should be more free votes in general in the House of Commons.
00:17:55.940I absolutely believe in free votes, particularly on conscience issues, but I think there should be more free votes.
00:18:01.940So let's take then the broader perspective of caucus management here, because I know that was an issue that a lot of people raised under the previous leadership, not just about carbon tax, not just social conservatives, but people felt like they didn't have the opportunity to represent themselves and their constituents effectively in that.
00:18:19.940So how do you, as an incoming leader, if you're successful, make sure that you have a clear vision and a clear focus as a party, but also you are allowing your caucus to have that autonomy and independence?
00:18:32.940Well, again, I think it comes with making sure that you're listening to your caucus.
00:18:38.940There's no better focus group for a leader than his own caucus.
00:18:43.940You have voices and perspectives from literally from coast to coast to coast.
00:18:47.940What better representation are you going to get for what Canadians are thinking, what they're talking about?
00:18:53.940An engaged caucus is the absolute best way for a leader to be properly informed about what Canadians are talking about.
00:19:01.940To me, that's exactly where it starts.
00:19:03.940But it's also about setting that example and making sure that caucus members talk to each other.
00:19:09.940You know, we have to we have to be a team and the only way we're going to be a team is if is if we are all talking to each other and all respecting each other.
00:19:19.940We don't have to agree to respect each other.
00:19:23.940I haven't seen any official policy from you on this, but as we know from the last parliament, the Liberals were trying to introduce at the time Bill C-36,
00:19:31.940which significantly clamped down on online speech by bringing back Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act.
00:19:38.940This was the section that Conservatives previously opposed and had repealed.
00:19:43.940What do you think more broadly about some of these reforms, not just C-36, which will be coming back with with another number, but but also the Internet regulations we're seeing from the Liberals?
00:19:54.940Well, I actually served on the Heritage Committee in the last parliament when we first started talking about this.
00:19:59.940And my my point that I kept raising over and over again with with the government that just kept trying to ram this through was that our freedoms, our freedoms are sacrosanct.
00:20:08.940They're they're they're they're fundamental to our lives as Canadians and to who we are as a country and and and and that we always need the air on the side of making sure Canadians have freedom of choice, freedom of voice.
00:20:24.940Freedoms aren't taken away in one fell swoop.
00:20:26.940They're chipped away at bit by bit by bit by bit.
00:20:29.940And so I I I was certainly opposed to their last effort at this.
00:20:33.940I'm opposed to their current effort at this.
00:20:35.940We need to ensure that Canadians have a voice and are and and and can express themselves freely, whether it's whether it's, you know, in newspapers or in or in or in the new community square, which is the online forums.
00:20:48.940There there are tools right now to make sure that things like hate speech are are dealt with and restricted, but we need to make sure that Canadians have freedom of voice everywhere in this country.
00:20:59.940And and obviously, I would assume that means the Emergencies Act is not your go to when people are using that voice.
00:21:06.940Well, I think, you know, if there's if there's one thing that maybe many Canadians do know me about, it's my speech in response to the government's use of the Emergency Measures Act.
00:21:15.940And that at the time, I commented that, you know, even even the lowering of the bar just a little bit on the use of the Emergencies Act is a dangerous thing to do.
00:21:25.940I felt it was a huge overreach to use that Emergencies Act.
00:21:29.940And I I think that history will will, in fact, judge the Trudeau government harshly for their use of it.
00:21:37.940And so, you know, absolutely, it should never have been used.
00:21:42.940And and the only time it ever should be used is under truly extraordinary time.
00:21:47.940Just lastly, Scott, you are running in this leadership.
00:21:51.940If you are not successful and I'm asking everyone this, not just you, don't worry.
00:21:55.940But if you're not successful, are you confident in your ability to serve any under any of your competitors if they end up winning?
00:22:01.940Are you confident that you have a place in in the visions of the party they're putting forward and could put forward some of the things that you've proposed in this leadership race effectively as an MP, not the leader?
00:22:12.940Well, absolutely. I'm I'm a team player and I do believe in building consensus.
00:22:16.940And I and I believe that that's that's incumbent on all of us as members of caucus and as members of a broader movement.
00:22:24.940And I will always work hard to build consensus, work with my colleagues, work with conservatives across the country.
00:22:32.940I'll always be doing that, whether whether I'm the leader or whether I'm a member of parliament or just a member of the party and not even a member of parliament.
00:22:40.940I believe in working together and building consensus.
00:22:59.940We have not yet had any response from Patrick Brown or Leona Alislev to have them.
00:23:04.940We've we've invited them on a number of occasions.
00:23:06.940So hopefully we'll have some interviews with them very soon.
00:23:09.940But if you want to check back on my other interviews with people like Mark Dalton and Joseph Borgel and Pierre Polyev and Jean Charest and Roman Baber, you can go.
00:23:18.940And I feel like every time I do that, I've heard less than Lewis as well.