Juno News - January 08, 2021


Should voters be able to fire politicians between elections？


Episode Stats


Length

10 minutes

Words per minute

195.57898

Word count

2,091

Sentence count

121

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation's Franco Terrazzano joins me on the Andrew Lawton Show to talk about why Alberta needs recall legislation. Recall legislation is a tool that allows voters to force a by-election if a politician they don't like is misbehaving.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:06.140 We talked a lot the last couple of shows about politicians
00:00:10.020 who have been telling us to hashtag stay home
00:00:12.400 but themselves were hanging out in St. Barts or Hawaii
00:00:16.520 where I think pretty much everyone in Alberta's government
00:00:19.720 was in Hawaii in the last month with the exception of one or two people.
00:00:23.560 And yeah, we've had some people resign from cabinet and leadership positions
00:00:27.260 but beyond that, what real recourse is there?
00:00:31.200 Well, an op-ed in The Edmonton Sun by Franco Terrazzano
00:00:34.360 from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation says
00:00:36.520 these vacations show why Albertans need recall legislation.
00:00:41.020 Franco Terrazzano joins me on the line now.
00:00:44.180 Good to talk to you again. Thanks for coming on today.
00:00:46.660 Hey, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.
00:00:48.360 So for those of us not familiar with the concept,
00:00:51.620 what is recall legislation?
00:00:53.060 Well, recall legislation is a very important accountability tool
00:00:57.700 and it allows voters to collect petitions
00:01:00.660 and if we collect enough petition, it allows us to force a by-election
00:01:03.960 so that we can hold a misbehaving politician accountable.
00:01:07.760 And what's so important about this is that right now
00:01:09.640 we can only hold politicians accountable
00:01:11.740 once every four years during an election.
00:01:14.100 But recall legislation would give us the ability that we deserve
00:01:17.720 to hold politicians accountable all year round.
00:01:21.200 That's, I think, an important point.
00:01:23.600 But you did allude to it there.
00:01:24.940 You have elections.
00:01:26.340 The point of politicians being elected for terms
00:01:28.660 is that voters can go and turf them
00:01:30.980 if they don't like the job they're doing.
00:01:32.980 Why do you need a stopgap?
00:01:34.660 Why do you need something between elections?
00:01:37.080 Well, I mean, of course, elections are an important accountability tool.
00:01:40.380 But the problem is that they're only once every four years.
00:01:43.040 Now, imagine if a boss was only able to hold
00:01:46.040 their employees accountable every four years.
00:01:48.080 I mean, certainly you would see employees have misbehaved,
00:01:52.120 maybe not show up for work, or do things of that nature, right?
00:01:55.480 And so the same thing applies here.
00:01:56.920 Because let's remember, it's the people who are the boss of politicians,
00:02:00.620 not the other way around.
00:02:01.840 Politicians aren't our boss.
00:02:03.200 We're their boss.
00:02:04.400 And as such, we deserve the right to hold them accountable,
00:02:07.000 not once every four years, not just during an election,
00:02:09.840 but all year round and every year during that mandate.
00:02:12.580 One concern that I have, I mean, we know full well the polarity
00:02:16.720 and polarization of politics, not just in the U.S.,
00:02:19.660 as we've seen with the events of this week, but even in Canada.
00:02:23.000 We know that there's a lot of right versus left divide all the time.
00:02:26.860 Is there a risk that recall could be a bit weaponized in a way,
00:02:31.180 where, you know what, let's say you're an NDP voter,
00:02:33.780 you vote NDP, you don't like that a conservative wins,
00:02:36.900 regardless of how well they do,
00:02:38.600 you want to just go right to that recall process
00:02:40.560 because you don't like that they won in the first place?
00:02:43.200 Well, you know what, you bring up a really good point,
00:02:45.040 but I actually see recall legislation as doing the opposite.
00:02:48.340 I see it as a very productive way to channel frustrations
00:02:51.840 into the democratic process, right?
00:02:53.760 Because right now, if we're frustrated,
00:02:55.940 we have to wait four years to hold the politicians accountable.
00:02:59.580 I mean, what choice do we really have?
00:03:02.000 But with recall legislation, we can take our frustrations,
00:03:04.740 we can take our anger, and we can put it into the democratic process.
00:03:07.980 And that's why I see another reason why recall legislation is so important.
00:03:12.620 And let's talk about the travel scandal that we're facing right now.
00:03:17.140 Right now, we have to wait for backroom political brokering for a solution.
00:03:22.200 But you know who should really have the final say?
00:03:25.000 It should be us, the voters, the people.
00:03:26.960 Yeah, that's actually an interesting point.
00:03:30.100 Because at first, in the Alberta context,
00:03:32.680 there was going to be no punishment for it.
00:03:34.660 There was going to be no penalty.
00:03:35.980 Jason Kenney, as we talked about on this show previously,
00:03:38.440 said that he didn't lay out the expectations.
00:03:41.380 And it was only because of backlash a few days later that that tended to reverse.
00:03:45.720 So yes, you could argue there was a bit of responsiveness to public anger,
00:03:49.440 but only if the prerogative of the Premier's office was to recognize that.
00:03:53.740 So you're right that there otherwise wouldn't have been a mechanism
00:03:56.500 if the Premier's office had stuck with its initial response to this.
00:04:00.180 You know, that is correct.
00:04:01.420 Because originally, Premier Jason Kenney said he didn't think he could sanction these politicians.
00:04:05.680 And of course, at the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, we said,
00:04:08.460 well, if you don't think you can sanction your politicians, I'm sure voters are up to the job.
00:04:13.240 And let's remember here, you know, we did see a cabinet minister step down,
00:04:17.140 and we did see politicians lose their committee roles.
00:04:20.140 But at the end of the day, the final say should be with Albertans or with voters,
00:04:25.480 whether or not they remain as members of the legislature.
00:04:29.060 So we should have the ability to hold them accountable.
00:04:32.080 And that means we should have the ability to fire them when they misbehave.
00:04:36.080 Do you think it is just about having the ability to recall politicians?
00:04:39.760 Or also, would you extend that to recalling legislation,
00:04:43.180 which is another format of recall that we've seen,
00:04:45.920 where instead of getting people out of office,
00:04:47.880 you just go after specific laws or bills they've put into place?
00:04:51.400 I'm glad you brought that up.
00:04:52.740 So we actually have that in Canada in one province, and that's BC.
00:04:56.860 In BC, we have recall legislation.
00:04:59.040 But we also have what you brought up there, which is called Citizens Initiative.
00:05:03.000 And that lets us to repeal bad legislation or bring forward legislation.
00:05:07.840 Now, that's very important, right?
00:05:09.280 Because recall, if people are the boss over politicians,
00:05:12.660 we should be able to fire them when they misbehave.
00:05:14.660 But with Citizens Initiative, if legislation, if law belongs to the people,
00:05:19.180 then we should be able to repeal bad legislation when it goes against our wishes.
00:05:23.160 Now, let me provide you with a pretty concrete example of where that would have applied in Alberta.
00:05:28.580 You know, we had the NDP previously.
00:05:30.460 They came to office.
00:05:31.600 They didn't run on a carbon tax.
00:05:33.520 And what did they do?
00:05:34.560 They hammered struggling families and struggling businesses with a carbon tax,
00:05:38.360 increased the cost of living at the worst possible time.
00:05:41.160 Well, it's pretty obvious that Albertans did not want a carbon tax.
00:05:44.400 So if we had Citizens Initiative, we would have been able to repeal that bad legislation
00:05:48.740 and give our economy a little bit of a break.
00:05:52.160 Now, we know that the British Columbia recall is actually pretty rare.
00:05:56.580 I mean, I think there's only been one instance where it's been used.
00:05:59.180 So why do you think there is a need or an appetite for this
00:06:01.940 when the province that has it hasn't really seen it used all that much?
00:06:05.920 Well, I'm glad you brought that up.
00:06:06.860 And I'm going to say two things on that.
00:06:08.660 So first, you know, BC's legislation been in place since 1995, only one successful recall campaign.
00:06:15.880 But the reason for that is the high threshold.
00:06:18.960 You know, you need 40% of the votes to even trigger a by-election.
00:06:23.420 And that's one of the reasons the Canadian Taxpayers Federation,
00:06:26.000 we're recommending that Premier Kenney do a threshold of 25% of the vote.
00:06:30.400 So less onerous for BC or then BC.
00:06:34.700 Now, here's another important part about recall legislation.
00:06:37.580 Not only is it important to actually force a by-election,
00:06:41.380 but recall legislation in and of itself could actually prevent a politician from misbehaving in the first place.
00:06:47.380 You know, I don't think it takes a PhD in psychology to understand that a politician will probably behave better
00:06:53.200 if they have to face the voters tomorrow rather than in four years.
00:06:57.180 Yeah, when I used to work in politics, there was the old adage that you get all the unpopular stuff out of the way in year one
00:07:03.580 because you know that everyone will have forgotten about it by year four.
00:07:06.340 But if there is that sort of sword of Damocles hanging over their head with recall,
00:07:10.880 they have to have that year four mentality every day, not just with laws,
00:07:14.200 but even with just personal behaviors and decisions like with the vacation scandals.
00:07:18.660 Yeah, or personal expenses, right?
00:07:20.340 Maybe a politician will think twice before dipping their fingers into the taxpayer cookie jar. 0.98
00:07:25.180 And here's another thing in Alberta.
00:07:26.760 We also had, in 2020, we had a huge expense scandal from one of our councillors, Councillor Meglioca,
00:07:33.680 who went to Quebec, spent a ton of money, more than his colleagues, on even things like steak and martinis.
00:07:40.060 Well, you know, if we had that recall legislation extended to the local level,
00:07:44.600 he probably would have thought twice before he did that.
00:07:46.860 You have, obviously, an Alberta context to your op-ed and most of the discussion we've had now.
00:07:52.940 You are the Alberta director of the CTF.
00:07:55.320 But is there any reason this couldn't be implemented in other provinces or even at the federal level?
00:08:00.640 Well, I think we should see it in other provinces and at the federal level.
00:08:03.640 It's not just a Western Canadian thing.
00:08:05.660 I mean, if I'm not mistaken, this whole holiday scandal broke out because of an Ontario minister, right?
00:08:11.440 Yeah, that's our proud export to the rest of the country, the vacation scandal.
00:08:16.040 So, yeah, so there you go.
00:08:17.560 Clearly, it would have been helpful for the good people of Ontario.
00:08:21.420 And remember, it's not just about whether or not the politician holds on to their cabinet position or not.
00:08:27.080 It should be up to the voters whether or not they remain as politicians.
00:08:30.420 Now, I would say that on this, there's probably reason to be a little bit hopeful.
00:08:35.560 Jason Kenney did promise this initially, and it sounds like there's at least some movement on it.
00:08:41.440 Yeah, well, so when Premier Kenney, when he was campaigning for votes back before the 2019 provincial election in Alberta,
00:08:47.280 he promised the very important tool of recall.
00:08:50.680 Last year, in the 2020 February throne speech from our government,
00:08:54.800 they also doubled down on that promise of recall legislation.
00:08:58.580 But, you know, we're still waiting for it.
00:09:01.680 We did have a private member's bill bring recall to the floor, but that died.
00:09:06.180 But just recently, actually, we're hearing Premier Kenney now say that he's going to bring it forward during this winter session.
00:09:12.460 So we're going to be watching for it.
00:09:13.720 But this is something that we need.
00:09:15.260 It's something that would have come in handy to deal with this holiday scandal.
00:09:19.400 And it's something that we're definitely going to have to keep holding his feet to the fire on.
00:09:23.260 Yeah, and I think certainly other provinces in the country should be paying attention to this.
00:09:27.320 I mean, I know with the Reform Party roots in Alberta, there is a lot more of a direct democracy origin there.
00:09:33.860 But as you've mentioned, I mean, political accountability is not limited to the West at all.
00:09:39.120 Well, it shouldn't be limited to the West.
00:09:41.340 And it really is.
00:09:42.380 If the politicians, if they think that they're behaving the way that their constituents want them to behave,
00:09:47.680 then they really should have no issue with this, right?
00:09:49.700 What we saw in BC is we saw a pretty big scandal force the issue.
00:09:55.540 These types of things don't tend to happen over day to day, right?
00:10:00.160 Recall legislation tends to be invoked when there is a scandal,
00:10:03.640 when you get a politician who's dipping their hands into the taxpayer cookie jar.
00:10:07.840 So if politicians aren't doing that, then they shouldn't have anything to worry about.
00:10:11.140 Yeah, it's the epitome of one of those pieces of legislation you want to have but never want to have to use.
00:10:17.140 So we'll certainly keep an eye out for it.
00:10:19.080 Franco Terrazano, Alberta Director for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
00:10:23.360 And that op-ed you can find at the Edmonton Sun.
00:10:26.620 Sun-soaked vacations show why Albertans need recall legislation.
00:10:30.580 Franco, thanks again for coming on today.
00:10:32.620 Hey, man.
00:10:32.960 Thanks for having me on.
00:10:33.620 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:10:36.240 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.