Juno News - July 11, 2022


Tamara Lich's imprisonment is an affront to justice


Episode Stats

Length

37 minutes

Words per Minute

197.72812

Word Count

7,479

Sentence Count

376

Misogynist Sentences

27

Hate Speech Sentences

3


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:10.740 Coming up, Tamara Leach is behind bars yet again, and this is supposed to make us more confident in the justice system, plus a look at the UCP leadership race and Alberta politics.
00:00:20.300 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:23.000 Hello, and welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:00:30.540 It is Monday, July 11th, 2022. Hope you're all having a wonderful day. Hope you had a wonderful weekend.
00:00:38.040 To all the Orangemen out there, I hope you are getting ready for a happy 12th. If you don't know what I'm talking about, well, don't worry about it.
00:00:44.980 But the ones who know, you know what I'm talking about. We've got a little bit of an Alberta-focused show coming up, at least the latter half of it.
00:00:52.100 We'll talk to Rachel Emanuel, who is the new Alberta correspondent for True North, and we'll also have my sit-down interview with Gwyn Morgan, formerly of Encana, that we recorded a little while back.
00:01:03.780 But it's certainly timely now as we talk about putting Western issues on the national agenda and on this show's agenda.
00:01:10.480 But I want to start off by talking about the decision that came down in an Ottawa courtroom on Friday about Tamara Leach, the Freedom Convoy organizer and fundraiser,
00:01:21.640 who, as I record this and as you hear this more than likely, is still languishing behind bars in Ottawa after being arrested for allegedly breaching her bail conditions
00:01:32.380 at the George Jonas Freedom Awards dinner in Toronto a little under a month ago.
00:01:38.720 When Tamara Leach was re-arrested, I spoke about it on this show with Keith Wilson, who is actually the lead counsel for the Freedom Convoy in a number of its cases.
00:01:48.360 He's not representing Tamara Leach in criminal court, but he's very tightly connected to the legal team that is representing Tamara Leach and Chris Barber
00:01:56.460 and the convoy and its fight against all of these other suits, against everyone and defending them and all of that.
00:02:02.060 It's a very complex matter.
00:02:03.760 And one of the things that he said on my show, I think a couple of times, is that Tamara Leach is living under bail conditions
00:02:10.800 that would make Vladimir Putin giddy and envious.
00:02:14.360 These are conditions that effectively, actually not even effectively, I don't want to qualify it.
00:02:18.740 These are conditions that gag her.
00:02:20.780 They prevent her from speaking about the convoy, about COVID mandates.
00:02:24.860 They prevent her from using social media, and they are undeniably broad.
00:02:30.080 We've talked about the wording of these conditions.
00:02:32.260 You can't do anything remotely that supports the Freedom Convoy or that protests COVID mandates
00:02:38.540 and the other conditions that she cannot have communication or contact with a number of people,
00:02:44.160 including, notably in this case, Tom Barrazzo.
00:02:48.480 And Keith Wilson spoke with me, I believe it was the day after Tamara Leach's arrest.
00:02:53.960 It might have actually been the night of, but I think it was the day after Tamara Leach's arrest that I spoke with Keith Wilson.
00:02:59.200 And at the time, the information that he had was that it was involving this photo that you can see up there
00:03:05.260 of Tamara Leach with Tom Barrazzo at the George Jonas Freedom Awards dinner.
00:03:09.880 And that photo, again, undeniably shows her and Tom with arms around each other.
00:03:14.780 And the whole point of this was that the Crown said, this is where she's wrong.
00:03:21.100 She can't have contact or communication with him.
00:03:23.600 The photo is definitive proof.
00:03:25.080 So they had her arrested in Medicine Hat and then had her shipped off to Ottawa, where she is still behind bars now.
00:03:32.100 And the defense of this was that there's a caveat in that condition.
00:03:36.740 And you can see the conditions up on the screen there, that she can't have contact except through counsel or in the presence of counsel.
00:03:43.800 So the key question was, does the fact that counsel was in the room, because this was an event put on by the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms,
00:03:52.820 does that negate that or does it activate that condition?
00:03:56.820 Does that mean it's in the presence of counsel?
00:04:00.040 And that was really what this case was about.
00:04:02.780 And they also argued her defense that any contact she had was minimal and that the law is really supposed to take into account the context of it.
00:04:11.480 And there's no evidence that they spoke from literally more than three seconds.
00:04:15.300 There was a video clip of a three-second interaction in which Tamara Leach whispered something to Tom.
00:04:20.820 And the whole exchange was, again, under three seconds.
00:04:23.060 So they argued that any contact was absolutely minuscule, which I mean, I don't think is the strongest argument.
00:04:28.340 But that was what they went for.
00:04:30.480 So long story short, Tamara Leach is behind bars because the Justice of the Peace, no, not a real judge,
00:04:36.140 but the Justice of the Peace said that this was absolutely laughable.
00:04:40.540 He basically laughed Tamara Leach's defense out of the courtroom.
00:04:44.060 But regardless of what you think of the bail conditions, regardless of how you interpret it
00:04:50.520 and do the Zapruder film-like analysis of the video and, oh, was there a second grab?
00:04:55.780 Was there a second Tamara Leach?
00:04:57.060 Was there a second Tom Arazzo?
00:04:58.480 You never know.
00:05:00.100 What the Justice of the Peace said here is that it would, and I'm focusing in on the key takeaway here,
00:05:05.700 it would undermine public confidence in the justice system if Tamara Leach were to be released from jail.
00:05:13.180 So he says that the administration of justice, which, again, public confidence in is a part of the legal system,
00:05:20.140 but the administration of justice, public confidence in the administration of justice requires that Tamara Leach remain behind bars.
00:05:28.560 Does anyone in this country believe that this woman belongs behind bars?
00:05:34.320 And when I say anyone, I'm not talking about the punitive little trolls that just want to jump up and down
00:05:40.700 and lock her up and throw away the key because they didn't like the truckers and they didn't like the Freedom Convoy,
00:05:45.680 but I'm talking about anyone looking at this grandmother from Medicine Hat.
00:05:49.380 Does anyone look at her and think that the public is well served by her being behind bars?
00:05:55.240 Because when I looked at the justice, and I watched the justice of the peace deliver his decisions,
00:06:00.040 and he went all over the map, and I'll bring up a couple of key points here that I thought were relevant.
00:06:05.520 He talked about the resurgence of Freedom Convoy protests.
00:06:08.920 So people that have come up and gone to protests in Ottawa, people that have gotten together at freedom rallies,
00:06:14.540 many of them, by the way, aren't even protests.
00:06:16.420 They're better described as just, you know, fun fairs where people want to just get together
00:06:21.620 and hang out with the people they met in Ottawa back in the cold when the weather's a bit nicer.
00:06:25.900 And he said that the fact that these things are going on means that she still poses a risk to the public
00:06:31.680 because she could just at any point start organizing another convoy.
00:06:35.980 That's what he said.
00:06:36.680 So all of these little protests, they're all a powder keg.
00:06:39.300 Tamara Leach could come, she could get out of jail, she could crack her knuckles,
00:06:42.380 she could get behind a truck, and she could start commanding them all to Ottawa.
00:06:45.780 And before you know, we're right back where we were in February of 2022.
00:06:50.140 And I'm sure a lot of you are probably wanting to go back there.
00:06:52.480 So maybe that's not the worst idea in the world to you.
00:06:55.440 But the Justice of the Peace thinks that this woman who went back to her life,
00:06:59.540 went back to her job, did nothing remotely public until she accepted this award,
00:07:05.400 which, by the way, the court knew about and effectively okayed when it came up at a previous bail hearing.
00:07:11.780 They think that she is itching to organize another convoy, to organize another protest,
00:07:17.640 and that she poses, to use his words, poses a risk to the public.
00:07:23.600 So I think that when we look at the takeaway here,
00:07:27.840 that we are supposed to, as a country, feel safer.
00:07:31.340 We are supposed to feel like our justice system is functioning
00:07:34.400 because Tamara Leach is behind bars.
00:07:37.260 I wonder what on earth we are supposed to take away from that
00:07:41.080 that is not actually itself undermining confidence in the justice system.
00:07:47.480 And people have said part of civil disobedience is taking the punishment.
00:07:51.820 If Tamara Leach was trying to flout the rules, if she was trying to make a point,
00:07:55.840 okay, this means that she has to spend her time behind bars.
00:07:58.700 That is part of her protest.
00:08:00.120 Okay, if that's what you think, fine.
00:08:02.020 And there are a lot of people who are on her side right now
00:08:07.320 that are saying she doesn't belong in jail, she doesn't belong behind bars,
00:08:11.380 that are probably ostensibly tough-on-crime, law-and-order conservatives,
00:08:15.520 people who, under other circumstances, have said,
00:08:17.780 yeah, it's important we lock up offenders and do that.
00:08:20.920 And admittedly, it's tempting.
00:08:23.120 If you hate the convoy, if you hate the truckers,
00:08:25.220 if you hate those who are protesting against vaccine mandates,
00:08:28.300 you hate the unvaccinated,
00:08:29.400 all these things that Justin Trudeau has himself sowed in society,
00:08:32.920 if you're one of those people that just has contempt for everything the convoy stood for,
00:08:37.480 yeah, of course you want her locked up.
00:08:40.240 But ideally, jail is not used just to make you feel giddy about someone else's suffering.
00:08:48.140 Jail is supposed to be about locking up people who have done things so heinous
00:08:51.680 they deserve to be punished,
00:08:52.860 or locking up people who are likely to continue to break the law.
00:08:56.600 And that is the key question here.
00:09:00.960 I don't actually think,
00:09:02.200 I have seen no evidence that she is wanting to even have another protest.
00:09:06.680 The sense that I've gotten is that she made her point,
00:09:09.060 she took a stand,
00:09:10.500 she had been, by the court's own admission,
00:09:12.980 dutifully complying with her conditions.
00:09:15.180 Her surety was even inspecting her phone.
00:09:18.740 Her surety was doing all the things that a surety is supposed to do,
00:09:21.700 making sure she wasn't violating these conditions.
00:09:24.380 Now look, I think that if you are trying to make the point
00:09:28.220 that you are following all your conditions,
00:09:30.460 this photo was a very dumb idea.
00:09:34.500 And this is something that I would say,
00:09:36.980 you can think the condition is unreasonable,
00:09:38.940 but ultimately, you're having to then start a debate over semantics.
00:09:42.900 It would have been a lot easier to say,
00:09:44.060 yes, Tom Marazzo was there,
00:09:45.580 but I didn't have contact with him,
00:09:47.120 than say, well, yes, we had,
00:09:48.820 yeah, we were in the photo,
00:09:49.880 yeah, we were together,
00:09:50.880 but our lawyers were in the room.
00:09:52.160 And interestingly enough,
00:09:54.200 the justice of the peace said that Tamara Leach's defense
00:09:56.760 offered no evidence that lawyers were actually present,
00:10:00.500 no evidence that she was in the presence of counsel.
00:10:03.100 Now, I was at that event.
00:10:04.080 I know her lawyers were all over the place.
00:10:05.600 It was crawling with lawyers.
00:10:06.940 But that is a very poor defense
00:10:09.400 if they didn't provide evidence of that,
00:10:11.820 provide affidavits from the many lawyers that were there,
00:10:14.900 provide photos of the lawyers there,
00:10:16.760 the lawyers at the table.
00:10:17.820 Like, that seems like very bad defense work
00:10:20.560 if they didn't make that point.
00:10:21.860 Now, I'm not a lawyer,
00:10:22.900 so I could be missing something here,
00:10:24.340 but that seemed like a very easy hurdle
00:10:26.200 to overcome in this case,
00:10:28.000 especially if that is a big part
00:10:29.440 of what the case rests on.
00:10:31.980 So Tamara Leach has another hearing this week.
00:10:34.480 She may be released.
00:10:35.460 She may not be.
00:10:37.100 But ultimately,
00:10:38.000 what the justice of the peace said
00:10:39.240 is that she needs to go to trial for the bail charge,
00:10:41.800 the charge of breaching her bail conditions,
00:10:43.780 and then she also has to go to trial
00:10:45.720 for the initial charge
00:10:47.140 that had her arrested and locked up in Ottawa.
00:10:49.460 And this woman whose crime in,
00:10:52.540 I mean, to use the government's words,
00:10:54.100 whose crime was mischief,
00:10:56.180 obstruction, counseling, mischief,
00:10:57.920 all stemming from a protest,
00:11:00.360 which at this point has never had its legality assessed.
00:11:04.800 People break the law all the time
00:11:06.820 in forms of protest.
00:11:08.440 And I've been very critical of that,
00:11:11.120 especially when it comes to the blockading
00:11:12.660 of critical infrastructure.
00:11:14.220 The thing,
00:11:15.120 and you can learn about this
00:11:16.360 at the risk of shamelessly plugging my book,
00:11:18.400 but my book,
00:11:19.020 which is normally behind me here,
00:11:20.480 so you'll have to settle for me
00:11:21.400 putting it up on the screen,
00:11:22.740 The Freedom Convoy,
00:11:23.860 the inside story of three weeks
00:11:25.160 that shook the world,
00:11:26.080 it actually talks about the efforts
00:11:27.800 that convoy organizers went to
00:11:29.940 to minimize the disruption of the convoy.
00:11:32.720 So people like to focus in on
00:11:34.040 what was happening in Windsor
00:11:35.840 and Emerson and Cootes, Alberta,
00:11:38.200 but that was not a part
00:11:39.780 of what was happening in Ottawa,
00:11:41.360 except insofar as the people there
00:11:43.600 were inspired by what they saw happening in Ottawa.
00:11:46.400 But all of these things
00:11:48.140 that we saw happening in Ottawa
00:11:50.000 were in many respects
00:11:52.160 trying to be mitigating
00:11:54.480 as far as their effect on the city around them.
00:11:57.380 And there were steps that were underway
00:11:59.240 and quite far along actually
00:12:01.160 to work with the city of Ottawa
00:12:03.160 at the time that the emergencies act came,
00:12:05.060 at the time that crackdown came.
00:12:07.420 And I'm not going to give away
00:12:08.560 too much of the book
00:12:09.260 except to say you should read it
00:12:10.780 to understand why all of the justifications
00:12:13.420 the government uses
00:12:14.740 to talk about how terrible this is,
00:12:16.960 how insurrection-y it was,
00:12:18.340 how hatey-hateful it was,
00:12:19.580 that all of these things
00:12:20.820 really failed to pass the smell test.
00:12:24.500 And even this new information
00:12:26.380 that was unearthed
00:12:27.360 as though it was like the smoking gun
00:12:29.340 in the bail hearing for Tamara Leach
00:12:31.840 was this text message they found
00:12:33.520 in evidence that they got from,
00:12:35.580 I mean evidence,
00:12:36.320 that they got from Chris Barber's phone,
00:12:37.860 I think it was.
00:12:38.720 And there was a text message
00:12:40.460 that Tamara Leach sent
00:12:41.520 where she had said,
00:12:43.200 you know what,
00:12:44.180 I just heard that there's a plan
00:12:45.640 to gridlock the city,
00:12:46.520 I don't want to make a decision
00:12:47.380 about this on my own.
00:12:48.880 The justice of the peace
00:12:50.020 took from that
00:12:51.020 just a few texts of an exchange
00:12:54.040 that Tamara Leach was a ringleader
00:12:56.580 sitting down,
00:12:57.360 a mastermind with a plan
00:12:58.600 to gridlock the whole city.
00:12:59.740 And, I mean,
00:13:01.060 the real story of the convoy
00:13:02.880 was that these organizers
00:13:04.020 couldn't really tell people
00:13:05.680 to do anything.
00:13:07.260 That was the power
00:13:08.580 of the grassroots momentum.
00:13:10.100 People in the trucks
00:13:11.220 were making their own decisions,
00:13:12.560 they were certainly influenced
00:13:13.640 by what the leaders
00:13:15.000 and so-called organizers
00:13:16.220 were saying,
00:13:17.140 they had the ability
00:13:18.340 to set the tone,
00:13:19.260 they controlled aspects
00:13:20.300 of the money,
00:13:21.280 but the trucks were going to do
00:13:22.620 what the trucks were going to do.
00:13:24.160 So the idea that that text message
00:13:25.940 proves anything,
00:13:27.540 I think is laughable,
00:13:28.580 but if you've already decided
00:13:30.100 your outcome,
00:13:31.340 which is that Tamara Leach
00:13:32.400 is public enemy number one,
00:13:33.700 and that's certainly
00:13:34.260 what the Crown has done,
00:13:35.660 everything else just gets filtered
00:13:37.080 through that lens.
00:13:37.920 And that was apparent
00:13:38.680 by the fact that she is still
00:13:40.220 quite shamefully behind bars.
00:13:41.860 And Pat King,
00:13:42.560 I talked about a few weeks ago,
00:13:44.280 I have no time for Pat King.
00:13:45.640 I think he does more harm than good.
00:13:47.560 I have little respect
00:13:48.540 for him or his voice,
00:13:49.800 but the fact that he is
00:13:50.960 behind bars right now
00:13:52.400 is also a gross injustice
00:13:55.640 with no explanation for why
00:13:58.600 and no timeline for it.
00:14:01.100 He hasn't even gotten
00:14:01.840 the Chris Barber treatment
00:14:02.800 of just being able
00:14:03.560 to get released.
00:14:04.580 And even Tamara Leach,
00:14:05.480 she got released
00:14:06.040 at least at first,
00:14:07.080 although it took about 19 days,
00:14:09.140 I think the first time around,
00:14:10.160 and now she winds up
00:14:11.340 exactly where she started.
00:14:12.760 So we'll keep following this.
00:14:14.820 Obviously this week,
00:14:15.780 she's back in court
00:14:16.620 and maybe out again,
00:14:18.080 but at this point,
00:14:18.800 I am not optimistic.
00:14:20.460 We've got to take
00:14:21.180 a quick break here.
00:14:22.160 When we come back,
00:14:22.720 we'll talk about Alberta politics
00:14:24.240 with our new Alberta correspondent,
00:14:26.540 Rachel Emanuel.
00:14:27.320 Stay tuned.
00:14:30.960 You're tuned in
00:14:32.100 to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:14:36.280 Welcome back
00:14:37.140 to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:14:38.640 When the Ontario election
00:14:40.200 was going on,
00:14:41.000 I got all these angry messages,
00:14:42.640 not angry,
00:14:43.240 but pointed messages
00:14:44.700 from people in Alberta,
00:14:46.240 Saskatchewan,
00:14:46.920 and parts of BC
00:14:47.520 saying,
00:14:47.940 oh, you're focused
00:14:48.400 too much on Ontario.
00:14:49.820 And when I've talked about
00:14:50.920 Alberta and Saskatchewan
00:14:51.960 in the past,
00:14:52.720 I get the messages
00:14:53.380 from the Ontarians
00:14:54.200 saying you're focused
00:14:55.400 too much on the West.
00:14:56.360 So to be honest,
00:14:57.920 the Maritimers,
00:14:58.680 you guys have a right
00:14:59.460 to be aggrieved right now
00:15:01.040 because I don't spend
00:15:01.560 nearly enough time
00:15:02.340 talking about what's going on
00:15:03.840 in the Maritimes
00:15:04.520 and also in Newfoundland
00:15:06.080 and Labrador.
00:15:07.280 We'll get to you
00:15:07.960 if stuff starts happening there.
00:15:09.600 But one thing I do want
00:15:10.820 to start talking about
00:15:11.620 a little bit though,
00:15:12.360 because we have
00:15:13.080 the United Conservative Party
00:15:14.640 leadership race,
00:15:16.060 is what's happening there
00:15:17.360 in the bid to
00:15:18.100 not just replace
00:15:18.900 Jason Kenney
00:15:19.560 as UCP leader,
00:15:20.900 but whoever wins this race
00:15:22.280 will become Premier
00:15:23.380 of Alberta.
00:15:24.540 A lot like what's happening
00:15:25.620 in the UK right now,
00:15:26.760 where whoever wins
00:15:27.420 the Tory leadership race
00:15:28.640 gets right to the top spot
00:15:30.340 and becomes Prime Minister.
00:15:32.220 So let's talk about this
00:15:33.400 and some of the other
00:15:33.980 broad issues here.
00:15:35.140 Joining me is
00:15:35.780 Rachel Emanuel,
00:15:37.140 who is True North's
00:15:38.160 new Alberta correspondent.
00:15:40.180 Rachel,
00:15:40.620 good to talk to you.
00:15:41.220 Thanks for coming on the show
00:15:42.200 today and welcome aboard.
00:15:44.260 Yeah, thank you very much.
00:15:45.300 Happy to be on the show
00:15:46.160 and happy to be with True North.
00:15:47.760 I know we've had
00:15:48.380 some conversations about
00:15:49.440 me maybe joining the team
00:15:50.760 a couple times,
00:15:51.480 so it's great to be here
00:15:52.340 at last.
00:15:52.860 I'm really excited about it.
00:15:54.100 And just as a wee bit
00:15:55.280 of Rachel Emanuel trivia,
00:15:57.160 you were there
00:15:57.920 like five seconds
00:15:59.080 before I was pepper sprayed
00:16:00.400 in Ottawa
00:16:01.000 covering the Freedom Convoy.
00:16:03.180 I ran into you
00:16:03.860 in front of the Shadow Laurier.
00:16:05.160 You had the wherewithal
00:16:06.380 to get out of Dodge.
00:16:07.480 I was pepper sprayed
00:16:08.340 moments later.
00:16:08.920 I don't blame you for it,
00:16:10.160 but you were there
00:16:10.900 at the moment it happened
00:16:12.160 or at least just before.
00:16:13.240 So good to see you.
00:16:14.480 Well, I actually have vision
00:16:15.520 in both eyes right now.
00:16:18.180 Let's start off
00:16:19.040 with what's been happening
00:16:19.840 in Alberta politics generally
00:16:21.580 because we have Jason Kenney
00:16:23.540 who effectively lost
00:16:25.780 his leadership review
00:16:26.860 and very quickly
00:16:28.400 a huge leadership race coming.
00:16:30.520 It's wide open.
00:16:31.360 You've got all these
00:16:31.920 ex-Cabinet ministers
00:16:32.740 that are coming in.
00:16:33.900 Is there at this point
00:16:35.280 a theme or a thing
00:16:36.620 that this leadership race
00:16:37.800 is about?
00:16:39.680 I think that that depends
00:16:41.040 on who you are as a voter
00:16:42.200 and what you're looking for
00:16:43.400 in the next leader.
00:16:44.820 I think we're seeing
00:16:45.460 two big questions
00:16:46.100 as what always happens
00:16:47.000 in a leadership race.
00:16:48.040 You have a camp of people
00:16:49.640 who are really just thinking
00:16:51.160 who can win a general election.
00:16:53.160 And so I think
00:16:53.680 what we're seeing
00:16:54.200 with a lot of people
00:16:54.960 that are coming out
00:16:55.760 of Kenny's government,
00:16:56.940 they're saying
00:16:57.880 with some of the other candidates
00:16:59.320 and, you know,
00:16:59.800 from their campaigns,
00:17:00.420 I'm hearing concern
00:17:01.100 that maybe candidates
00:17:01.900 like Danielle Smith
00:17:02.960 or Todd Lowen
00:17:03.880 doesn't have what it takes
00:17:04.860 to win a general election
00:17:06.080 because they are a bit
00:17:07.400 further to the right
00:17:08.140 than some of the candidates
00:17:08.960 that are coming out
00:17:09.560 of Kenny's government.
00:17:10.600 So that's, of course,
00:17:11.380 a question that everyone's asking.
00:17:13.540 Another question is,
00:17:14.460 of course, you know,
00:17:15.220 a lot of people
00:17:15.760 are really unhappy
00:17:16.380 with what the Kenny government
00:17:17.320 did on COVID-19
00:17:18.380 and the policies
00:17:19.080 that were implemented.
00:17:20.220 Of course, pastors here
00:17:21.420 in Alberta
00:17:21.840 were arrested
00:17:22.440 during the pandemic.
00:17:23.640 That is not something
00:17:24.360 the province is ready
00:17:25.180 to forget anytime soon.
00:17:26.960 So we're really seeing
00:17:28.000 those two themes emerge.
00:17:29.120 And I think everyone
00:17:29.880 is kind of saying,
00:17:31.020 you know, Kenny didn't do
00:17:32.020 enough with the federal government
00:17:33.320 and getting a fair deal
00:17:34.820 from Ottawa.
00:17:35.500 We didn't see the action
00:17:36.360 on that that we were hoping for.
00:17:38.180 So I think one of the big questions
00:17:39.660 is who's someone
00:17:40.240 that can win in a general election.
00:17:41.640 Of course, the province
00:17:42.640 has a general election
00:17:43.860 coming up next year,
00:17:44.720 just about six months
00:17:45.580 after their leadership race.
00:17:46.880 So that's really not a lot of time.
00:17:48.720 So they're looking for somebody
00:17:49.940 who can, you know,
00:17:50.640 reunite the caucus,
00:17:51.680 the parties.
00:17:52.320 It's kind of fracturing.
00:17:53.580 There seems to be some divides.
00:17:55.000 You know, it's conservative politics.
00:17:56.760 You always have it
00:17:57.380 in conservative politics.
00:17:58.480 There's different groups.
00:17:59.260 People are very principled
00:18:00.300 and they're not always
00:18:01.300 willing to bend their views
00:18:02.660 for somebody else's
00:18:03.540 to compromise and make it work.
00:18:05.180 So they're looking for someone
00:18:06.220 that can unite the party
00:18:07.300 and win ahead of a general election
00:18:09.200 coming up against
00:18:09.920 Rachel Notley and the NDP.
00:18:11.720 Yeah, I think you raise
00:18:13.340 an important point.
00:18:14.280 And one of the things
00:18:15.060 I felt Jason Kenney
00:18:16.360 was always too quick to do,
00:18:18.660 and there was probably
00:18:19.280 a strategic element there,
00:18:20.660 is say that the only criticism
00:18:22.080 about him was really
00:18:23.720 about the COVID handling.
00:18:24.960 He had said that anyone
00:18:25.860 who was against him
00:18:26.920 was against him
00:18:27.880 because they didn't like lockdowns.
00:18:29.260 They didn't like vaccine
00:18:30.060 mandates.
00:18:30.480 He tried to really do
00:18:32.000 his own version
00:18:32.820 of the fringe minority thing
00:18:34.820 to some extent.
00:18:36.000 And what you just mentioned there,
00:18:37.540 a range of issues
00:18:38.400 that people had
00:18:39.180 with the Kenney government,
00:18:40.760 even pre-COVID
00:18:41.860 or in the very early days of COVID.
00:18:43.540 And yeah, the fair deal.
00:18:44.580 I mean, obviously,
00:18:45.120 it hasn't been top of mind
00:18:46.160 for a lot of Albertans
00:18:47.780 because of pandemic-related stuff.
00:18:49.740 But the equalization referendum
00:18:52.040 was really, I think,
00:18:53.800 for a lot of people,
00:18:55.000 just the beginning
00:18:55.980 of a bigger discussion
00:18:56.900 they want to have
00:18:57.680 about independence
00:18:58.500 that really wasn't happening.
00:19:01.640 Yeah, that's exactly it.
00:19:03.040 There was a lot of unhappiness
00:19:04.320 with the COVID-19 pandemic policies,
00:19:05.940 as you mentioned,
00:19:06.420 but there was also
00:19:06.980 a lot of resentment
00:19:07.560 for other issues.
00:19:08.760 That being said,
00:19:09.400 I don't know
00:19:10.000 if COVID hadn't happened,
00:19:11.560 if Kenney still would have
00:19:12.640 had the same leadership
00:19:13.420 as your results that he had.
00:19:14.860 And, you know,
00:19:15.160 maybe his energy
00:19:15.840 could have been spent more
00:19:16.740 on some of these issues.
00:19:17.640 Obviously, COVID-19
00:19:18.500 was overwhelming
00:19:19.500 for the government
00:19:20.100 and it seemed like
00:19:20.780 sort of all hands on deck
00:19:21.760 to address this issue.
00:19:22.920 And Kenney, of course,
00:19:24.060 was the person who came out
00:19:25.100 and did the press conferences.
00:19:26.240 I think he was in front
00:19:27.020 of the cameras
00:19:27.440 like three times a week.
00:19:28.600 We didn't see that
00:19:29.620 in every other province.
00:19:30.980 Some premiers put their,
00:19:32.300 you know,
00:19:32.640 health officer
00:19:33.260 in front of the cameras.
00:19:34.220 So it's kind of like
00:19:35.060 you've just spent two years
00:19:36.260 seeing Kenney
00:19:36.780 in front of the camera
00:19:37.460 delivering bad news repeatedly.
00:19:39.260 And then we go on
00:19:39.760 to this leadership review.
00:19:40.740 But certainly now
00:19:41.840 that we are looking
00:19:42.560 for a new premier,
00:19:43.560 there's other issues coming up
00:19:44.700 that people had
00:19:45.540 with the Kenney government.
00:19:46.600 And another big thing
00:19:47.300 I'm hearing a lot
00:19:47.820 is just sort of a lack
00:19:48.600 of communication.
00:19:50.080 Albertans didn't really feel
00:19:51.060 like the Kenney government
00:19:51.740 was consulting with them
00:19:52.820 or being clear
00:19:54.000 and open with them
00:19:54.940 about what they were doing
00:19:55.660 on the COVID-19 pandemic.
00:19:57.180 I think it really felt
00:19:57.940 like a top-down approach
00:19:59.000 that Albertans typically
00:19:59.940 really don't appreciate.
00:20:01.220 I don't know if we really
00:20:01.880 see that same sentiment
00:20:02.760 in Ontario.
00:20:03.440 The politics are
00:20:04.020 very different here.
00:20:05.340 So we're seeing
00:20:06.040 some leadership candidates
00:20:06.920 appeal to, you know,
00:20:07.600 we need to communicate better.
00:20:08.960 We need to kind of
00:20:09.600 give the power back
00:20:10.340 to the hands of the members
00:20:11.260 and not have that
00:20:11.900 top-down approach.
00:20:12.980 So these are all issues
00:20:13.860 that we're seeing flow
00:20:14.640 out of the leadership race
00:20:15.700 right now and things
00:20:16.420 that people are talking
00:20:17.100 about and discussing.
00:20:18.360 Yeah, let's talk about
00:20:19.380 some of the players here
00:20:20.320 because you have a lot
00:20:21.220 of former Kenny cabinet
00:20:22.480 ministers, people like
00:20:23.560 Rajan Sani and Lila here
00:20:26.320 and Travis Taves
00:20:27.440 that have stepped forward.
00:20:28.600 Rebecca Schultz,
00:20:29.760 another one who just got
00:20:30.820 a pretty, I'd say,
00:20:31.860 significant endorsement
00:20:32.820 in Ronna Ambrose
00:20:33.600 coming aboard her campaign.
00:20:35.160 And then you have
00:20:36.040 that Wild Rose flank
00:20:38.020 of Brian Jean
00:20:39.160 and Danielle Smith
00:20:40.140 and you've got
00:20:41.480 some other people.
00:20:42.100 I mean, Todd Lowen,
00:20:42.800 I don't think he's
00:20:43.540 in that top tier right now,
00:20:44.860 but to be fair,
00:20:45.680 he's there and he's
00:20:46.860 appealing to some
00:20:47.560 of those same people.
00:20:48.880 And I think it will
00:20:50.000 be interesting to see
00:20:51.620 which way this goes,
00:20:53.360 even early on,
00:20:54.100 as far as momentum
00:20:54.860 and fundraising and all that,
00:20:56.900 because I would say,
00:20:57.740 certainly from my perspective,
00:20:59.140 and I could have
00:20:59.760 my own little echo chamber here,
00:21:01.440 I would say that
00:21:02.440 there's a lot more momentum
00:21:03.520 behind the Danielle Smiths
00:21:04.900 and the Brian Jeans
00:21:05.800 because of those
00:21:07.200 COVID frustrations,
00:21:08.300 because of those
00:21:09.020 equalization referendum
00:21:10.300 and broader
00:21:11.320 Western alienation frustrations.
00:21:13.080 But at the same time,
00:21:14.100 if someone is happy
00:21:15.280 with the Kenny government,
00:21:16.180 there's a lot of appeal
00:21:17.600 to people that were
00:21:18.360 in that government,
00:21:19.280 like Rebecca Schultz,
00:21:20.280 like Travis Taves.
00:21:21.400 You have it exactly right.
00:21:22.540 So I'm seeing tons
00:21:23.480 of support for Danielle Smith.
00:21:24.800 I don't think anybody
00:21:25.620 on any campaigns,
00:21:26.860 maybe a couple people,
00:21:27.840 but I've been here
00:21:28.740 at the Calgary Stampede
00:21:29.680 talking to everyone.
00:21:30.520 Everyone seems to be
00:21:31.520 pretty much on agreement.
00:21:32.900 Smith is in the lead
00:21:33.600 right now.
00:21:34.360 She's a clear front runner.
00:21:35.540 You know,
00:21:35.960 the polling from last month
00:21:37.140 showed Brian Jean
00:21:38.180 was just behind her,
00:21:39.880 like a point behind her,
00:21:40.660 still within the margin of error.
00:21:42.080 I'm not really hearing
00:21:42.920 a lot of support
00:21:43.520 for him at the Stampede.
00:21:44.380 I'm not hearing that people
00:21:45.400 feel super confident
00:21:46.940 in his campaign
00:21:47.620 or believe that he's likely
00:21:48.660 to become the next leader,
00:21:50.040 even though the polling,
00:21:50.820 as I mentioned last month,
00:21:51.700 showed him just behind Smith.
00:21:53.420 But I am hearing,
00:21:54.560 you know,
00:21:54.720 people think Smith
00:21:55.340 is a clear front runner.
00:21:56.240 And that's because
00:21:56.700 she has done such a good job
00:21:58.660 of appealing
00:21:59.340 to those freedom-loving Albertans
00:22:00.900 who are so frustrated
00:22:01.760 with what happened
00:22:02.420 in their province
00:22:02.960 over the last few years.
00:22:04.480 And the thing that
00:22:05.020 all politicians
00:22:05.540 need to remember right now
00:22:06.760 is a lot of people
00:22:07.960 who are in the freedom movement
00:22:09.520 are people that were
00:22:10.260 never involved
00:22:11.060 in politics before.
00:22:12.120 But when they saw
00:22:13.000 what was happening
00:22:13.580 in their country
00:22:14.260 during the COVID-19 pandemic,
00:22:15.540 they thought,
00:22:16.200 I need to get involved now.
00:22:17.760 If there was ever a time
00:22:18.760 to stand up for something,
00:22:19.840 it's today.
00:22:20.900 And so they've been organizing
00:22:21.840 over the last two years.
00:22:23.240 So this has mobilized
00:22:24.380 a lot of Canadians
00:22:25.120 who might not have been
00:22:25.820 involved in politics before.
00:22:27.020 You know,
00:22:27.140 there's just massive email lists.
00:22:28.740 Their organization
00:22:29.260 is very excellent.
00:22:30.360 It's one of the reasons
00:22:31.120 that Kenny had to resign
00:22:32.360 as premier following,
00:22:33.380 you know,
00:22:33.520 his poor leadership review results
00:22:35.020 at just 51.4%
00:22:36.720 of party support.
00:22:37.800 So she's done a really good job
00:22:39.060 of appealing to those people.
00:22:40.040 She's been very clear
00:22:40.780 we're not going to do
00:22:41.480 lockdowns again.
00:22:42.560 If Ottawa pressures us,
00:22:43.680 we're going to have to resist
00:22:44.600 that pressure on vaccine mandates
00:22:46.160 and lockdowns.
00:22:47.160 And then, you know,
00:22:47.520 she's been talking about
00:22:48.380 an Alberta Sovereignty Act,
00:22:49.560 which would mean the province
00:22:50.680 wouldn't enforce federal laws
00:22:52.080 that they didn't like
00:22:52.860 or think were advantageous
00:22:53.820 to Alberta.
00:22:54.680 So she's been very clear
00:22:55.940 at appealing to those,
00:22:56.720 you know,
00:22:57.240 to those Albertans
00:22:57.960 and even things
00:22:58.760 on like nominations.
00:22:59.840 Nominations are open
00:23:00.660 during the leadership race.
00:23:01.620 Some people think
00:23:02.200 that shouldn't be the case.
00:23:03.480 They think they should wait
00:23:04.180 for the new leader
00:23:04.780 to be chosen to open noms.
00:23:06.300 And she said,
00:23:06.940 you know,
00:23:07.160 if the members in that area
00:23:08.180 are unhappy,
00:23:08.780 I would consider
00:23:09.420 reopening nominations.
00:23:10.880 And that is some
00:23:11.360 of the more moderates
00:23:12.320 a bit concerned
00:23:13.020 because they think
00:23:13.620 some of these ideas
00:23:14.220 are a bit radical,
00:23:15.240 like reopening nominations.
00:23:17.160 What kind of legal issues
00:23:18.220 could that cause?
00:23:19.220 As well as, you know,
00:23:20.120 an Alberta Sovereignty Act.
00:23:21.180 Is it really something
00:23:21.860 that's practical?
00:23:22.980 Will it give us
00:23:23.640 economic certainty?
00:23:24.700 I think we'll see
00:23:25.160 a lot of investment pull.
00:23:26.600 But she's definitely
00:23:27.400 pulling ahead right now
00:23:28.540 because she's appealing
00:23:29.320 to those people.
00:23:30.060 And I think they've just
00:23:30.760 organized so well
00:23:31.740 and so efficiently
00:23:32.460 over the last few years.
00:23:33.720 The concerns I'm hearing
00:23:34.580 with her campaign
00:23:35.260 is whether or not
00:23:35.900 she can win a general election.
00:23:37.080 And I don't have
00:23:38.080 a lot of clear answers on that.
00:23:39.200 I'm not hearing a lot
00:23:39.900 of clear answers
00:23:40.480 about that at this time.
00:23:42.260 Just on that note,
00:23:43.320 and I know you're a recent,
00:23:44.900 a relatively recent
00:23:45.780 Alberta transplant,
00:23:46.860 but there was a lot
00:23:48.280 of bad blood
00:23:49.100 to Danielle Smith
00:23:50.020 after the whole
00:23:51.200 floor-crossing debacle.
00:23:52.960 And she's, I mean,
00:23:54.180 had to answer to that
00:23:55.060 time and time again.
00:23:56.160 But have people forgiven that?
00:23:58.640 Have they forgotten it?
00:23:59.780 Or has the political discussion
00:24:01.980 just changed so much
00:24:03.320 that they're operating
00:24:04.140 on a different wavelength now?
00:24:05.340 The people that were against her,
00:24:07.060 a lot of them came
00:24:07.740 from that Wild Rose side,
00:24:09.240 the right flank of the party.
00:24:10.440 Have they just moved on
00:24:11.620 from that entirely?
00:24:13.880 I don't think
00:24:14.580 anybody's forgotten about it.
00:24:15.860 I think it's something
00:24:16.420 that's always there
00:24:17.180 in the back of people's minds.
00:24:18.420 It's something that gets
00:24:19.040 brought up very often.
00:24:21.040 It's just,
00:24:21.880 I think she spent six years
00:24:23.040 on the radio,
00:24:23.640 and I think a lot of people
00:24:24.720 have forgiven her for it,
00:24:26.080 and they're ready
00:24:26.540 to give her another chance.
00:24:27.960 So that's one big part of it.
00:24:29.280 As I mentioned,
00:24:30.020 you know,
00:24:30.220 there are still some people
00:24:30.920 that hold on to it.
00:24:32.100 People have pretty clear,
00:24:33.520 when you're speaking to people,
00:24:34.660 it's pretty clear right away.
00:24:35.640 They say,
00:24:35.920 I'll never trust her again
00:24:36.680 because of the floor crosser.
00:24:37.920 Or they say,
00:24:38.300 you know what,
00:24:38.560 we heard her on the radio
00:24:39.400 for six years.
00:24:40.480 We understand why that happened
00:24:42.120 and where she was coming from.
00:24:43.180 It's a different time now.
00:24:44.400 So there's definitely
00:24:45.180 a big wave of people
00:24:46.340 that are ready to forgive her.
00:24:47.720 They might not have forgotten
00:24:48.460 that it's happened,
00:24:49.140 but they understand
00:24:49.820 why it happened.
00:24:50.840 And I think that,
00:24:51.500 as we saw with Ralph Klein,
00:24:52.720 who was one of Alberta's
00:24:53.520 most popular premiers,
00:24:55.120 if you have a leader,
00:24:56.140 a political leader,
00:24:56.720 who's willing to say,
00:24:57.540 you know,
00:24:57.740 I made a mistake,
00:24:58.880 and explain to people
00:24:59.760 what that mistake was
00:25:00.920 and why they made it,
00:25:02.120 people are very quick
00:25:03.000 to forgive them
00:25:03.880 and move on from it.
00:25:05.000 And I think that was,
00:25:05.780 again,
00:25:05.900 one of the criticisms
00:25:06.620 with Kenny
00:25:07.140 is people didn't feel
00:25:08.160 like they got
00:25:08.520 a clear answer from him
00:25:09.520 or a clear owning of mistakes,
00:25:11.860 just sort of a,
00:25:12.780 well, you know,
00:25:13.200 we did the best we could
00:25:14.260 and people just
00:25:15.560 were not satisfied
00:25:16.160 with his answer.
00:25:16.960 So I do get the sentiment
00:25:17.900 that people are ready
00:25:18.620 to forgive her.
00:25:19.360 You know,
00:25:19.500 there's, of course,
00:25:20.040 people that are not
00:25:20.900 going to believe her
00:25:21.520 or trust her again
00:25:22.100 as a politician,
00:25:22.980 but the sentiments
00:25:23.800 definitely seem to be changing.
00:25:26.040 Let's turn to some
00:25:26.660 of the bigger picture stuff.
00:25:27.760 Obviously,
00:25:28.080 you're coming aboard,
00:25:28.840 not just as True North's
00:25:30.360 next Alberta correspondent,
00:25:31.960 but really I think
00:25:32.700 it's True North's
00:25:33.220 first Alberta correspondent.
00:25:34.520 We've had Alberta coverage.
00:25:36.120 I know a lot of it
00:25:36.700 has fallen on me,
00:25:37.500 which is just what
00:25:38.100 Albertans want,
00:25:38.780 someone coming in
00:25:39.340 from Ontario
00:25:39.880 every time something
00:25:40.580 happens to report on it,
00:25:42.440 even though I do have
00:25:43.340 an Alberta sensibility,
00:25:44.680 many have argued.
00:25:45.460 But what is it
00:25:46.720 that you think
00:25:47.420 are the big issues
00:25:48.380 on the Alberta agenda
00:25:49.760 right now?
00:25:52.800 HS,
00:25:53.360 people are really unhappy
00:25:54.320 with their health care
00:25:55.080 and they're looking
00:25:55.640 for someone who's saying
00:25:56.560 we cannot have
00:25:57.920 unelected public health officials
00:25:59.780 making decisions
00:26:00.920 for the province again.
00:26:02.220 So they're looking
00:26:02.680 for political leaders
00:26:03.960 that are going to
00:26:04.380 offer answers on that.
00:26:05.980 Just to jump in there,
00:26:07.500 do you think this is
00:26:08.060 like a general concern
00:26:09.800 that everyone in Canada
00:26:10.600 is dealing with
00:26:11.160 or do you think
00:26:11.540 it's particularly acute
00:26:14.200 for Albertans?
00:26:15.720 It's definitely a concern
00:26:16.900 that Conservatives,
00:26:17.820 Libertarians across Canada
00:26:18.940 are feeling right now
00:26:19.900 and I'm hearing it brought up
00:26:21.580 in Alberta politics
00:26:22.840 at the grassroots level
00:26:23.720 at like local meetings
00:26:24.660 all the time.
00:26:25.580 It gets talked about
00:26:26.140 all the times
00:26:26.660 people are saying,
00:26:27.340 you know,
00:26:27.500 this is really a problem
00:26:28.500 of how our public system
00:26:29.440 is designed
00:26:29.980 and a problem with AHS.
00:26:31.520 So how can we redesign
00:26:32.460 our public health system
00:26:33.580 so that we don't have
00:26:34.640 a situation like this again?
00:26:35.920 And again,
00:26:36.500 you know,
00:26:36.700 candidates like Daniel Smith
00:26:37.680 and Todd Lowen,
00:26:38.340 they have specific solutions
00:26:39.620 and they have ideas
00:26:40.980 as to how to address
00:26:41.800 this so that we don't
00:26:43.700 have public health orders
00:26:44.540 that are just passed
00:26:45.540 without, you know,
00:26:46.460 public officials,
00:26:47.480 elected officials
00:26:48.160 being able to debate
00:26:48.960 them in the legislature
00:26:50.040 and decide if they're
00:26:50.780 actually something
00:26:51.280 they'd like to proceed with.
00:26:52.740 So I would say AHS
00:26:53.780 is at the top of mind.
00:26:55.080 Again, you know,
00:26:55.880 Freedom from Ottawa,
00:26:56.620 some more fairment
00:26:58.340 on equalization payments.
00:27:00.460 You know,
00:27:00.640 people are really unhappy
00:27:01.400 with the high taxes
00:27:02.160 right now
00:27:02.460 and the high cost of living.
00:27:03.620 Government spending
00:27:04.200 is, of course,
00:27:04.740 an issue.
00:27:06.680 Yeah,
00:27:06.980 those are the big issues
00:27:07.860 that I'm seeing
00:27:08.400 come across the board
00:27:09.240 right now
00:27:09.660 that get kind of brought up
00:27:10.700 everywhere that we're going.
00:27:11.720 But affordability
00:27:12.380 is, I think,
00:27:12.880 top of mind
00:27:13.300 for everybody in Canada.
00:27:14.700 So we're seeing
00:27:15.540 a lot of conversation
00:27:16.280 around that as well.
00:27:17.620 During the early part
00:27:18.860 of the Conservative
00:27:19.600 leadership race,
00:27:20.600 keeping in mind,
00:27:21.160 you don't really have
00:27:21.940 any candidates
00:27:23.180 from the West.
00:27:24.200 I know Pierre Polyev
00:27:24.980 was born there,
00:27:25.700 so he's tried to say
00:27:26.500 that he's the Western candidate.
00:27:28.180 Lesley Lewis did very well
00:27:29.320 there in the last
00:27:29.940 leadership race,
00:27:30.600 so she's trying to say
00:27:31.680 that that makes her
00:27:32.320 a Western candidate.
00:27:33.280 But you have Ontarians
00:27:35.080 and a Quebecer
00:27:36.700 that are running
00:27:37.720 in this race,
00:27:38.300 and it really didn't seem
00:27:39.700 like Alberta issues
00:27:41.080 or Western issues
00:27:41.860 were getting much discussion
00:27:42.860 at all in the leadership race
00:27:44.840 until, I'd say,
00:27:45.720 the last week.
00:27:46.360 Once they all want
00:27:46.980 to go to Alberta
00:27:47.540 and get their white hats
00:27:48.460 for the Calgary Stampede,
00:27:49.940 they start talking about,
00:27:50.700 oh, I want to change
00:27:51.360 equalization and all that.
00:27:52.780 But do you feel
00:27:53.860 that there has been
00:27:55.180 enough of a push
00:27:56.600 by the federal
00:27:57.860 Conservative leadership
00:27:58.800 candidates to go after
00:28:00.060 these Western issues?
00:28:02.720 I think so.
00:28:03.580 I think they've all
00:28:04.080 done different things
00:28:04.680 to sort of try
00:28:05.180 to appeal to the West.
00:28:06.260 The question is
00:28:06.740 whether they really mean it
00:28:07.740 and if we'll see action
00:28:08.680 on that once they're elected.
00:28:09.900 I think, you know,
00:28:10.840 everyone knows,
00:28:11.420 like even Patrick Brown
00:28:12.300 very early into his campaign
00:28:13.620 when Michelle Rumpel-Garner
00:28:15.080 was still his campaign chair,
00:28:16.120 he released like a whole platform
00:28:17.580 on how we would deal
00:28:18.300 with issues in the West.
00:28:19.080 We saw something similar
00:28:20.060 from Jean Charest,
00:28:20.840 I believe it was just
00:28:21.740 early last week.
00:28:23.000 So, you know,
00:28:23.740 they are coming out
00:28:24.480 with proposals
00:28:25.000 that specifically address
00:28:26.180 Western issues.
00:28:27.280 It's just the question
00:28:27.940 of how much they really mean it
00:28:29.220 and how much they're going
00:28:29.820 to advocate for these issues
00:28:30.960 once they're in elected office
00:28:32.440 and, you know,
00:28:33.220 hold the highest office
00:28:33.940 of the land.
00:28:34.480 So I think that's sort of
00:28:35.540 a question everyone
00:28:36.100 is wondering, you know,
00:28:36.920 trustability.
00:28:37.620 But, you know,
00:28:38.400 Pierre Polyev is incredibly
00:28:39.500 popular out here.
00:28:40.960 He's pulled massive crowds
00:28:42.160 to his rallies in Edmonton.
00:28:43.680 There was 4,000 people
00:28:45.060 at his rally,
00:28:46.400 you know, a couple months ago.
00:28:47.440 So he's just pulling
00:28:48.260 massive crowds
00:28:48.820 all across Canada
00:28:49.720 and we're definitely seeing
00:28:50.960 like a ton of support
00:28:51.720 for him here.
00:28:52.380 So, you know,
00:28:52.980 maybe he hasn't lived
00:28:53.840 in Calgary anytime soon
00:28:54.960 but I think people still
00:28:56.120 like to see him a little bit
00:28:56.900 as one of their own.
00:28:58.560 Drew North,
00:28:59.260 Alberta correspondent
00:29:00.220 Rachel Emanuel.
00:29:01.220 Rachel, thanks for coming on
00:29:02.420 and welcome again to the team.
00:29:03.600 Great to be working with you.
00:29:04.560 Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:05.220 Thank you.
00:29:06.060 One thing I have got to say,
00:29:07.420 just talking about
00:29:08.100 those Alberta issues
00:29:09.140 and the Alberta agenda,
00:29:10.140 it was interesting
00:29:10.660 that energy didn't come up
00:29:11.860 and I think a part of that
00:29:13.160 is because in an Alberta
00:29:14.320 Conservative context
00:29:15.460 and even like a Canadian
00:29:17.020 Conservative Party context,
00:29:18.700 it's just assumed
00:29:19.900 that you're pro-energy.
00:29:21.140 Like everyone in the race
00:29:22.520 is pro-energy.
00:29:23.720 That's like one of the most
00:29:24.460 uncontroversial things
00:29:25.580 you can do
00:29:26.240 in the context of being
00:29:28.060 a Canadian Conservative.
00:29:29.680 It's, I mean,
00:29:30.380 it shouldn't be controversial.
00:29:31.160 I guess if you're from Quebec,
00:29:32.600 it might be a bit challenging
00:29:33.580 and that's what Jean Charest
00:29:34.860 has been criticized for
00:29:36.480 but all of them are.
00:29:38.000 So it's interesting
00:29:38.760 that it doesn't actually
00:29:39.500 need to be an issue
00:29:40.520 in Alberta politics
00:29:42.020 but I did want to share
00:29:43.300 an interview
00:29:43.720 and this one is actually
00:29:44.900 a couple of months old now
00:29:45.900 but we've been waiting
00:29:46.500 for the issues to arise
00:29:47.580 to make it timely.
00:29:49.300 I sat down at the Canada
00:29:50.680 Strong and Free
00:29:51.320 Networking Conference
00:29:52.160 with Gwyn Morgan
00:29:52.960 who is a legend
00:29:54.360 in Canadian industry
00:29:55.660 and also the Canadian
00:29:56.880 oil and gas sector
00:29:58.300 in particular.
00:29:59.580 He was the man
00:30:00.460 who built and created
00:30:01.780 and made what it was
00:30:03.020 and Canna,
00:30:04.120 which has now ceased to be
00:30:05.820 in a quite tragic turn
00:30:07.080 of events,
00:30:07.540 a Canadian company.
00:30:08.340 It's now domiciled
00:30:09.660 in the US
00:30:10.160 and goes by the name
00:30:11.140 Ovintiv
00:30:11.820 which was something
00:30:12.860 we actually spoke
00:30:13.940 to Gwyn Morgan
00:30:14.680 about back when
00:30:15.840 that happened
00:30:16.380 a couple of years ago now
00:30:17.660 but this was my conversation
00:30:19.340 in Ottawa
00:30:19.860 with Gwyn Morgan.
00:30:21.360 Gwyn, good to see you
00:30:22.460 in person.
00:30:22.900 Thanks for your time today.
00:30:23.660 Thank you.
00:30:24.640 We've heard a little bit
00:30:25.880 in the leadership race
00:30:26.920 about the oil
00:30:28.040 and gas sector in Canada,
00:30:29.300 about energy policy.
00:30:30.880 Would you say
00:30:31.580 as someone who's worked
00:30:32.720 for years in this sector
00:30:34.080 that the issues
00:30:34.880 connected to it
00:30:35.660 are getting enough
00:30:36.260 attention lately?
00:30:36.920 Well, I think they're
00:30:38.300 getting more attention
00:30:39.100 than ever
00:30:39.680 because you start
00:30:41.620 with the fossil fuel
00:30:42.660 thing itself.
00:30:44.580 The reality is
00:30:45.820 the world has now realized
00:30:47.220 that fossil fuels
00:30:49.500 are fundamental
00:30:50.360 to both their very economic
00:30:52.700 and even their physical survival
00:30:54.400 and we happen to have
00:30:56.240 a country that's got
00:30:59.440 the third largest reserves
00:31:00.560 of the world
00:31:01.160 has sort of turned itself off
00:31:05.180 leaving President Putin
00:31:07.480 and Russia
00:31:08.080 to control the oil supply
00:31:10.100 and this has now become
00:31:13.000 and so now we have
00:31:14.020 a situation where
00:31:14.820 there are actually
00:31:15.220 energy crises,
00:31:17.300 fossil fuel crises
00:31:18.380 and they're going
00:31:19.460 to keep on going
00:31:20.320 and they're going
00:31:20.860 to affect
00:31:21.340 not only the developed world
00:31:22.780 but the undeveloped world.
00:31:24.840 So this is the legacy
00:31:26.400 of the Trudeau government's
00:31:28.940 anti-oil and gas policy
00:31:30.580 for a country
00:31:31.640 that has the third largest
00:31:32.660 reserves in the world.
00:31:33.760 We're seeing,
00:31:34.800 especially in Europe
00:31:35.560 right now,
00:31:36.160 countries like Germany
00:31:37.220 and Hungary
00:31:38.340 that have their energy
00:31:40.000 sectors entirely dependent
00:31:41.700 or significantly dependent
00:31:43.780 on Russia particularly.
00:31:46.160 When you were,
00:31:47.100 you know,
00:31:47.660 actively working
00:31:48.380 in the oil and gas sector,
00:31:49.400 was this a part
00:31:50.080 of your pitch
00:31:50.640 to countries
00:31:51.240 that you have
00:31:52.400 to be very focused
00:31:54.020 on and very aware
00:31:55.160 of the problems
00:31:56.460 of becoming reliant
00:31:58.020 on Russian oil
00:31:59.200 and other dictatorship oil?
00:32:02.280 Well, you know,
00:32:03.100 I lived,
00:32:04.020 my career was in
00:32:05.640 what I would call
00:32:06.160 the golden years
00:32:06.880 for the industry
00:32:07.440 where we didn't have
00:32:08.480 an anti-industry government.
00:32:12.260 You didn't need
00:32:13.100 to put an aggressive
00:32:13.720 sales pitch on
00:32:14.460 to get them
00:32:14.780 to buy Canadian oil.
00:32:16.000 What we were doing
00:32:16.880 was providing jobs
00:32:18.080 and the principal source
00:32:19.700 of revenue
00:32:20.140 for the country
00:32:20.800 both domestically
00:32:21.780 and exports.
00:32:24.200 And we were
00:32:24.980 a growing business
00:32:25.840 and we were
00:32:26.440 a thriving economy
00:32:29.700 because of that.
00:32:30.680 So we didn't have
00:32:31.520 to sell it to people.
00:32:33.220 And people needed,
00:32:34.420 they needed energy.
00:32:35.580 But you know,
00:32:36.260 the interesting thing
00:32:36.980 is that most people
00:32:39.580 don't realize
00:32:40.340 that in the last
00:32:41.880 10 years,
00:32:42.940 well,
00:32:45.640 I guess
00:32:45.940 the last 10 years,
00:32:47.400 prior,
00:32:47.820 just prior to this pandemic,
00:32:49.960 the oil demand
00:32:52.200 had reached
00:32:52.560 75 million barrels
00:32:53.880 a day.
00:32:55.300 Then we had
00:32:55.980 the pandemic,
00:32:58.480 of course,
00:32:58.780 we also had
00:32:59.500 these various years
00:33:01.360 of these annual
00:33:03.560 shindigs
00:33:05.120 where people flew in
00:33:06.100 by jet planes
00:33:06.880 to talk about,
00:33:08.060 you know,
00:33:08.580 saving the world
00:33:09.940 from fossil fuel emissions.
00:33:11.740 and we went,
00:33:14.780 so we went from there
00:33:15.780 to a situation
00:33:18.760 where now
00:33:19.360 the demand
00:33:20.080 is 100 million barrels
00:33:21.320 a day.
00:33:21.860 All during the COP26
00:33:23.660 stuff and everything else.
00:33:25.280 And the forecast now
00:33:26.420 by the IEA
00:33:27.880 are going to 110.
00:33:30.120 And we're having trouble
00:33:30.960 getting 100.
00:33:31.980 So right now
00:33:33.060 we're in a fossil fuel,
00:33:34.680 huge fossil fuel problem.
00:33:37.920 And it's,
00:33:38.400 and then of course,
00:33:38.980 as you say,
00:33:39.660 Andrew,
00:33:40.040 the other problem
00:33:41.480 in Europe
00:33:42.060 is the natural gas issue.
00:33:44.700 I mean,
00:33:45.360 here's Germany
00:33:46.400 with nuclear power.
00:33:49.900 And you know,
00:33:50.380 people are talking
00:33:50.940 to come back
00:33:51.480 to nuclear power
00:33:52.220 right now.
00:33:53.080 Shutting down
00:33:53.600 all the plants
00:33:54.160 so they could,
00:33:54.740 they could get
00:33:56.920 their energy
00:33:57.540 from,
00:33:57.980 from windmills
00:34:00.320 and power
00:34:00.760 and,
00:34:01.080 and solar panels.
00:34:03.600 That doesn't work
00:34:04.320 very well.
00:34:04.900 So now they're
00:34:05.320 dependent on Russia.
00:34:06.020 So we have
00:34:07.360 the oil industry,
00:34:08.180 gas industry
00:34:09.100 in Europe
00:34:10.160 for gas business,
00:34:11.540 gas consumers
00:34:12.220 dependent on Russia.
00:34:13.600 And we have
00:34:14.140 the world
00:34:14.700 dependent on oil,
00:34:17.240 Russia for oil.
00:34:18.520 And this is the legacy
00:34:19.620 of the,
00:34:21.020 of the movement
00:34:21.780 to get off fossil fuels.
00:34:24.420 Yeah,
00:34:24.940 and I think
00:34:25.300 that's the big
00:34:26.420 lie in all of this
00:34:27.540 is that when people
00:34:28.320 talk about
00:34:28.980 easing our reliance
00:34:30.460 on oil,
00:34:32.140 all they're really
00:34:33.180 doing is easing
00:34:34.280 their reliance
00:34:34.960 on domestic oil
00:34:36.000 production
00:34:36.500 because the need
00:34:37.700 itself has not
00:34:38.600 been replaced.
00:34:39.500 And this is such
00:34:40.120 a fundamental thing.
00:34:41.360 I'm not an expert
00:34:41.900 in it by any stretch,
00:34:42.780 but I see it
00:34:43.400 that they're not
00:34:44.680 doing anything
00:34:45.180 because that magical
00:34:46.160 alternative energy
00:34:47.000 source that's going
00:34:47.800 to replicate the energy
00:34:48.840 we need at the cost
00:34:49.880 that we need
00:34:50.400 doesn't exist yet.
00:34:51.560 It does not exist.
00:34:52.820 You know,
00:34:53.160 I'm an engineer,
00:34:54.080 of course,
00:34:54.320 and I always say
00:34:56.320 that politicians
00:34:57.760 can't chain physics.
00:35:00.660 They may think
00:35:01.440 they can,
00:35:01.920 some of them.
00:35:02.440 The physics
00:35:03.000 of how much energy
00:35:03.880 you can get
00:35:04.180 out of fossil fuels
00:35:05.100 or out of wind
00:35:06.820 and solar
00:35:07.240 when it's minus
00:35:08.380 20 degrees in Canada
00:35:09.660 with no sun
00:35:10.340 in the winter
00:35:10.740 and you're trying
00:35:11.560 to heat your home,
00:35:12.260 good luck.
00:35:13.840 So it's all
00:35:14.720 so obvious.
00:35:16.360 You know,
00:35:16.600 the thing that always
00:35:17.420 struck me is
00:35:18.180 how obvious
00:35:19.300 these things are.
00:35:20.680 Eighty-four percent
00:35:21.480 of the current
00:35:22.180 energy supply
00:35:24.100 and demand
00:35:24.740 in the world
00:35:25.080 is supplied
00:35:25.540 by fossil fuels.
00:35:26.780 There isn't anything else.
00:35:28.480 Nuclear power
00:35:29.140 will come,
00:35:30.160 but even that
00:35:30.820 can't put that
00:35:32.660 in cars and airplanes.
00:35:34.260 So it's just a,
00:35:37.100 I don't know
00:35:37.540 how to put it.
00:35:38.320 It's become
00:35:39.000 like a religion,
00:35:40.900 a myth,
00:35:42.540 and people
00:35:43.980 don't think through
00:35:45.900 the obvious
00:35:47.720 holes in that myth.
00:35:49.260 Do you feel
00:35:51.880 like the battle
00:35:54.100 has been lost
00:35:54.880 on this already
00:35:55.660 and that even
00:35:56.120 if you were to get
00:35:56.700 a pro-energy
00:35:57.780 conservative government
00:35:58.780 in,
00:35:59.220 that the culture
00:35:59.800 is moving
00:36:00.360 so much against it
00:36:01.560 that you can't
00:36:02.040 turn back?
00:36:02.520 Or do you feel
00:36:02.960 that people will
00:36:03.580 have a reckoning
00:36:04.660 with this
00:36:05.020 at some point?
00:36:05.720 Oh,
00:36:05.860 I don't think
00:36:06.200 it's gone
00:36:09.000 beyond politics now.
00:36:10.180 When people
00:36:10.460 can't heat their homes,
00:36:11.840 they can't drive
00:36:12.860 their cars,
00:36:13.820 when there's people
00:36:14.440 throughout the world
00:36:15.200 without fertilizer
00:36:16.840 for their farms.
00:36:19.100 People are starving.
00:36:20.740 We don't have
00:36:21.440 to talk about
00:36:22.300 why we need
00:36:24.760 fossil fuels.
00:36:25.740 There's never
00:36:26.300 been a bigger lesson
00:36:27.660 right now
00:36:28.440 at this moment.
00:36:30.440 Gwen Morgan,
00:36:31.300 thank you.
00:36:32.000 My thanks again
00:36:32.800 to Gwen Morgan
00:36:33.740 for sitting down
00:36:34.560 with me at the
00:36:35.240 Canada Strong
00:36:36.040 and Free Networking
00:36:36.940 Conference.
00:36:37.720 And I'll certainly
00:36:38.600 be at that conference
00:36:39.420 next year,
00:36:39.960 but they have
00:36:40.260 another one coming
00:36:40.900 up in September
00:36:41.780 in Red Deer
00:36:43.100 that I hope
00:36:43.680 to be at as well.
00:36:44.420 They're doing
00:36:44.680 some great stuff.
00:36:45.480 Jamil Giovanni
00:36:46.140 has now taken
00:36:47.460 the reins
00:36:47.880 and they are
00:36:48.360 great friends
00:36:49.100 of True North.
00:36:50.080 That does it for us
00:36:51.200 for today.
00:36:52.000 We will be back
00:36:52.640 in a couple days' time
00:36:53.440 with the next part
00:36:54.140 of our Conservative
00:36:55.120 Leadership Series.
00:36:56.520 Next up is my interview
00:36:57.880 with Scott Atchison.
00:36:59.260 You won't want
00:36:59.640 to miss that
00:37:00.060 coming down the way
00:37:01.040 in just two days' time.
00:37:02.820 In the meantime,
00:37:03.480 though,
00:37:03.640 hope you all have
00:37:04.340 a wonderful rest
00:37:05.460 of the day
00:37:05.840 and rest of the week.
00:37:07.000 Canada's most
00:37:07.820 irreverent talk show
00:37:08.600 here on True North.
00:37:09.620 Thank you,
00:37:10.100 God bless,
00:37:10.840 and good day to you all.
00:37:11.740 Thanks for listening
00:37:12.320 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:37:14.040 Support the program
00:37:14.840 by donating to True North
00:37:16.100 at www.tnc.news.
00:37:19.500 www.tnc.news.com