Juno News - Tamara Lich's imprisonment is an affront to justice

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.740 Coming up, Tamara Leach is behind bars yet again, and this is supposed to make us more confident in the justice system, plus a look at the UCP leadership race and Alberta politics. 0.72

00:00:20.300 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:23.000 Hello, and welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:00:30.540 It is Monday, July 11th, 2022. Hope you're all having a wonderful day. Hope you had a wonderful weekend.

00:00:38.040 To all the Orangemen out there, I hope you are getting ready for a happy 12th. If you don't know what I'm talking about, well, don't worry about it.

00:00:44.980 But the ones who know, you know what I'm talking about. We've got a little bit of an Alberta-focused show coming up, at least the latter half of it.

00:00:52.100 We'll talk to Rachel Emanuel, who is the new Alberta correspondent for True North, and we'll also have my sit-down interview with Gwyn Morgan, formerly of Encana, that we recorded a little while back.

00:01:03.780 But it's certainly timely now as we talk about putting Western issues on the national agenda and on this show's agenda.

00:01:10.480 But I want to start off by talking about the decision that came down in an Ottawa courtroom on Friday about Tamara Leach, the Freedom Convoy organizer and fundraiser,

00:01:21.640 who, as I record this and as you hear this more than likely, is still languishing behind bars in Ottawa after being arrested for allegedly breaching her bail conditions

00:01:32.380 at the George Jonas Freedom Awards dinner in Toronto a little under a month ago.

00:01:38.720 When Tamara Leach was re-arrested, I spoke about it on this show with Keith Wilson, who is actually the lead counsel for the Freedom Convoy in a number of its cases.

00:01:48.360 He's not representing Tamara Leach in criminal court, but he's very tightly connected to the legal team that is representing Tamara Leach and Chris Barber

00:01:56.460 and the convoy and its fight against all of these other suits, against everyone and defending them and all of that.

00:02:02.060 It's a very complex matter.

00:02:03.760 And one of the things that he said on my show, I think a couple of times, is that Tamara Leach is living under bail conditions

00:02:10.800 that would make Vladimir Putin giddy and envious.

00:02:14.360 These are conditions that effectively, actually not even effectively, I don't want to qualify it.

00:02:18.740 These are conditions that gag her. 1.00

00:02:20.780 They prevent her from speaking about the convoy, about COVID mandates.

00:02:24.860 They prevent her from using social media, and they are undeniably broad.

00:02:30.080 We've talked about the wording of these conditions.

00:02:32.260 You can't do anything remotely that supports the Freedom Convoy or that protests COVID mandates

00:02:38.540 and the other conditions that she cannot have communication or contact with a number of people,

00:02:44.160 including, notably in this case, Tom Barrazzo.

00:02:48.480 And Keith Wilson spoke with me, I believe it was the day after Tamara Leach's arrest.

00:02:53.960 It might have actually been the night of, but I think it was the day after Tamara Leach's arrest that I spoke with Keith Wilson.

00:02:59.200 And at the time, the information that he had was that it was involving this photo that you can see up there

00:03:05.260 of Tamara Leach with Tom Barrazzo at the George Jonas Freedom Awards dinner.

00:03:09.880 And that photo, again, undeniably shows her and Tom with arms around each other.

00:03:14.780 And the whole point of this was that the Crown said, this is where she's wrong.

00:03:21.100 She can't have contact or communication with him.

00:03:23.600 The photo is definitive proof.

00:03:25.080 So they had her arrested in Medicine Hat and then had her shipped off to Ottawa, where she is still behind bars now.

00:03:32.100 And the defense of this was that there's a caveat in that condition.

00:03:36.740 And you can see the conditions up on the screen there, that she can't have contact except through counsel or in the presence of counsel.

00:03:43.800 So the key question was, does the fact that counsel was in the room, because this was an event put on by the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms,

00:03:52.820 does that negate that or does it activate that condition?

00:03:56.820 Does that mean it's in the presence of counsel?

00:04:00.040 And that was really what this case was about.

00:04:02.780 And they also argued her defense that any contact she had was minimal and that the law is really supposed to take into account the context of it.

00:04:11.480 And there's no evidence that they spoke from literally more than three seconds.

00:04:15.300 There was a video clip of a three-second interaction in which Tamara Leach whispered something to Tom.

00:04:20.820 And the whole exchange was, again, under three seconds.

00:04:23.060 So they argued that any contact was absolutely minuscule, which I mean, I don't think is the strongest argument.

00:04:28.340 But that was what they went for.

00:04:30.480 So long story short, Tamara Leach is behind bars because the Justice of the Peace, no, not a real judge, 0.97

00:04:36.140 but the Justice of the Peace said that this was absolutely laughable.

00:04:40.540 He basically laughed Tamara Leach's defense out of the courtroom. 1.00

00:04:44.060 But regardless of what you think of the bail conditions, regardless of how you interpret it

00:04:50.520 and do the Zapruder film-like analysis of the video and, oh, was there a second grab?

00:04:55.780 Was there a second Tamara Leach? 1.00

00:04:57.060 Was there a second Tom Arazzo?

00:04:58.480 You never know.

00:05:00.100 What the Justice of the Peace said here is that it would, and I'm focusing in on the key takeaway here,

00:05:05.700 it would undermine public confidence in the justice system if Tamara Leach were to be released from jail. 1.00

00:05:13.180 So he says that the administration of justice, which, again, public confidence in is a part of the legal system,

00:05:20.140 but the administration of justice, public confidence in the administration of justice requires that Tamara Leach remain behind bars. 1.00

00:05:28.560 Does anyone in this country believe that this woman belongs behind bars? 1.00

00:05:34.320 And when I say anyone, I'm not talking about the punitive little trolls that just want to jump up and down

00:05:40.700 and lock her up and throw away the key because they didn't like the truckers and they didn't like the Freedom Convoy,

00:05:45.680 but I'm talking about anyone looking at this grandmother from Medicine Hat.

00:05:49.380 Does anyone look at her and think that the public is well served by her being behind bars? 0.88

00:05:55.240 Because when I looked at the justice, and I watched the justice of the peace deliver his decisions,

00:06:00.040 and he went all over the map, and I'll bring up a couple of key points here that I thought were relevant.

00:06:05.520 He talked about the resurgence of Freedom Convoy protests.

00:06:08.920 So people that have come up and gone to protests in Ottawa, people that have gotten together at freedom rallies,

00:06:14.540 many of them, by the way, aren't even protests.

00:06:16.420 They're better described as just, you know, fun fairs where people want to just get together

00:06:21.620 and hang out with the people they met in Ottawa back in the cold when the weather's a bit nicer.

00:06:25.900 And he said that the fact that these things are going on means that she still poses a risk to the public

00:06:31.680 because she could just at any point start organizing another convoy.

00:06:35.980 That's what he said.

00:06:36.680 So all of these little protests, they're all a powder keg.

00:06:39.300 Tamara Leach could come, she could get out of jail, she could crack her knuckles, 1.00

00:06:42.380 she could get behind a truck, and she could start commanding them all to Ottawa.

00:06:45.780 And before you know, we're right back where we were in February of 2022.

00:06:50.140 And I'm sure a lot of you are probably wanting to go back there.

00:06:52.480 So maybe that's not the worst idea in the world to you.

00:06:55.440 But the Justice of the Peace thinks that this woman who went back to her life,

00:06:59.540 went back to her job, did nothing remotely public until she accepted this award,

00:07:05.400 which, by the way, the court knew about and effectively okayed when it came up at a previous bail hearing.

00:07:11.780 They think that she is itching to organize another convoy, to organize another protest,

00:07:17.640 and that she poses, to use his words, poses a risk to the public.

00:07:23.600 So I think that when we look at the takeaway here,

00:07:27.840 that we are supposed to, as a country, feel safer.

00:07:31.340 We are supposed to feel like our justice system is functioning

00:07:34.400 because Tamara Leach is behind bars. 1.00

00:07:37.260 I wonder what on earth we are supposed to take away from that

00:07:41.080 that is not actually itself undermining confidence in the justice system.

00:07:47.480 And people have said part of civil disobedience is taking the punishment.

00:07:51.820 If Tamara Leach was trying to flout the rules, if she was trying to make a point, 1.00

00:07:55.840 okay, this means that she has to spend her time behind bars. 1.00

00:07:58.700 That is part of her protest.

00:08:00.120 Okay, if that's what you think, fine.

00:08:02.020 And there are a lot of people who are on her side right now

00:08:07.320 that are saying she doesn't belong in jail, she doesn't belong behind bars, 0.99

00:08:11.380 that are probably ostensibly tough-on-crime, law-and-order conservatives,

00:08:15.520 people who, under other circumstances, have said,

00:08:17.780 yeah, it's important we lock up offenders and do that.

00:08:20.920 And admittedly, it's tempting.

00:08:23.120 If you hate the convoy, if you hate the truckers,

00:08:25.220 if you hate those who are protesting against vaccine mandates,

00:08:28.300 you hate the unvaccinated, 1.00

00:08:29.400 all these things that Justin Trudeau has himself sowed in society,

00:08:32.920 if you're one of those people that just has contempt for everything the convoy stood for,

00:08:37.480 yeah, of course you want her locked up. 1.00

00:08:40.240 But ideally, jail is not used just to make you feel giddy about someone else's suffering.

00:08:48.140 Jail is supposed to be about locking up people who have done things so heinous

00:08:51.680 they deserve to be punished,

00:08:52.860 or locking up people who are likely to continue to break the law.

00:08:56.600 And that is the key question here.

00:09:00.960 I don't actually think,

00:09:02.200 I have seen no evidence that she is wanting to even have another protest.

00:09:06.680 The sense that I've gotten is that she made her point,

00:09:09.060 she took a stand,

00:09:10.500 she had been, by the court's own admission,

00:09:12.980 dutifully complying with her conditions.

00:09:15.180 Her surety was even inspecting her phone.

00:09:18.740 Her surety was doing all the things that a surety is supposed to do,

00:09:21.700 making sure she wasn't violating these conditions.

00:09:24.380 Now look, I think that if you are trying to make the point

00:09:28.220 that you are following all your conditions, 0.99

00:09:30.460 this photo was a very dumb idea. 0.96

00:09:34.500 And this is something that I would say, 0.98

00:09:36.980 you can think the condition is unreasonable,

00:09:38.940 but ultimately, you're having to then start a debate over semantics.

00:09:42.900 It would have been a lot easier to say,

00:09:44.060 yes, Tom Marazzo was there,

00:09:45.580 but I didn't have contact with him,

00:09:47.120 than say, well, yes, we had,

00:09:48.820 yeah, we were in the photo,

00:09:49.880 yeah, we were together,

00:09:50.880 but our lawyers were in the room.

00:09:52.160 And interestingly enough,

00:09:54.200 the justice of the peace said that Tamara Leach's defense

00:09:56.760 offered no evidence that lawyers were actually present,

00:10:00.500 no evidence that she was in the presence of counsel.

00:10:03.100 Now, I was at that event.

00:10:04.080 I know her lawyers were all over the place. 0.99

00:10:05.600 It was crawling with lawyers.

00:10:06.940 But that is a very poor defense

00:10:09.400 if they didn't provide evidence of that,

00:10:11.820 provide affidavits from the many lawyers that were there,

00:10:14.900 provide photos of the lawyers there,

00:10:16.760 the lawyers at the table.

00:10:17.820 Like, that seems like very bad defense work

00:10:20.560 if they didn't make that point.

00:10:21.860 Now, I'm not a lawyer,

00:10:22.900 so I could be missing something here,

00:10:24.340 but that seemed like a very easy hurdle

00:10:26.200 to overcome in this case,

00:10:28.000 especially if that is a big part

00:10:29.440 of what the case rests on.

00:10:31.980 So Tamara Leach has another hearing this week. 1.00

00:10:34.480 She may be released.

00:10:35.460 She may not be.

00:10:37.100 But ultimately,

00:10:38.000 what the justice of the peace said

00:10:39.240 is that she needs to go to trial for the bail charge, 0.99

00:10:41.800 the charge of breaching her bail conditions,

00:10:43.780 and then she also has to go to trial 0.95

00:10:45.720 for the initial charge

00:10:47.140 that had her arrested and locked up in Ottawa.

00:10:49.460 And this woman whose crime in, 0.99

00:10:52.540 I mean, to use the government's words,

00:10:54.100 whose crime was mischief,

00:10:56.180 obstruction, counseling, mischief,

00:10:57.920 all stemming from a protest,

00:11:00.360 which at this point has never had its legality assessed.

00:11:04.800 People break the law all the time

00:11:06.820 in forms of protest.

00:11:08.440 And I've been very critical of that,

00:11:11.120 especially when it comes to the blockading

00:11:12.660 of critical infrastructure.

00:11:14.220 The thing,

00:11:15.120 and you can learn about this

00:11:16.360 at the risk of shamelessly plugging my book,

00:11:18.400 but my book,

00:11:19.020 which is normally behind me here,

00:11:20.480 so you'll have to settle for me

00:11:21.400 putting it up on the screen,

00:11:22.740 The Freedom Convoy,

00:11:23.860 the inside story of three weeks

00:11:25.160 that shook the world,

00:11:26.080 it actually talks about the efforts

00:11:27.800 that convoy organizers went to

00:11:29.940 to minimize the disruption of the convoy.

00:11:32.720 So people like to focus in on

00:11:34.040 what was happening in Windsor

00:11:35.840 and Emerson and Cootes, Alberta,

00:11:38.200 but that was not a part

00:11:39.780 of what was happening in Ottawa,

00:11:41.360 except insofar as the people there

00:11:43.600 were inspired by what they saw happening in Ottawa.

00:11:46.400 But all of these things

00:11:48.140 that we saw happening in Ottawa

00:11:50.000 were in many respects

00:11:52.160 trying to be mitigating

00:11:54.480 as far as their effect on the city around them.

00:11:57.380 And there were steps that were underway

00:11:59.240 and quite far along actually

00:12:01.160 to work with the city of Ottawa

00:12:03.160 at the time that the emergencies act came,

00:12:05.060 at the time that crackdown came.

00:12:07.420 And I'm not going to give away

00:12:08.560 too much of the book

00:12:09.260 except to say you should read it

00:12:10.780 to understand why all of the justifications

00:12:13.420 the government uses

00:12:14.740 to talk about how terrible this is,

00:12:16.960 how insurrection-y it was,

00:12:18.340 how hatey-hateful it was,

00:12:19.580 that all of these things

00:12:20.820 really failed to pass the smell test.

00:12:24.500 And even this new information

00:12:26.380 that was unearthed

00:12:27.360 as though it was like the smoking gun

00:12:29.340 in the bail hearing for Tamara Leach

00:12:31.840 was this text message they found

00:12:33.520 in evidence that they got from,

00:12:35.580 I mean evidence,

00:12:36.320 that they got from Chris Barber's phone,

00:12:37.860 I think it was.

00:12:38.720 And there was a text message

00:12:40.460 that Tamara Leach sent

00:12:41.520 where she had said,

00:12:43.200 you know what,

00:12:44.180 I just heard that there's a plan

00:12:45.640 to gridlock the city,

00:12:46.520 I don't want to make a decision

00:12:47.380 about this on my own.

00:12:48.880 The justice of the peace

00:12:50.020 took from that

00:12:51.020 just a few texts of an exchange

00:12:54.040 that Tamara Leach was a ringleader

00:12:56.580 sitting down,

00:12:57.360 a mastermind with a plan

00:12:58.600 to gridlock the whole city.

00:12:59.740 And, I mean,

00:13:01.060 the real story of the convoy

00:13:02.880 was that these organizers

00:13:04.020 couldn't really tell people

00:13:05.680 to do anything.

00:13:07.260 That was the power

00:13:08.580 of the grassroots momentum.

00:13:10.100 People in the trucks

00:13:11.220 were making their own decisions,

00:13:12.560 they were certainly influenced

00:13:13.640 by what the leaders

00:13:15.000 and so-called organizers

00:13:16.220 were saying,

00:13:17.140 they had the ability

00:13:18.340 to set the tone,

00:13:19.260 they controlled aspects

00:13:20.300 of the money,

00:13:21.280 but the trucks were going to do 0.96

00:13:22.620 what the trucks were going to do.

00:13:24.160 So the idea that that text message

00:13:25.940 proves anything,

00:13:27.540 I think is laughable,

00:13:28.580 but if you've already decided

00:13:30.100 your outcome,

00:13:31.340 which is that Tamara Leach 1.00

00:13:32.400 is public enemy number one,

00:13:33.700 and that's certainly

00:13:34.260 what the Crown has done,

00:13:35.660 everything else just gets filtered

00:13:37.080 through that lens.

00:13:37.920 And that was apparent

00:13:38.680 by the fact that she is still

00:13:40.220 quite shamefully behind bars.

00:13:41.860 And Pat King,

00:13:42.560 I talked about a few weeks ago,

00:13:44.280 I have no time for Pat King.

00:13:45.640 I think he does more harm than good.

00:13:47.560 I have little respect

00:13:48.540 for him or his voice,

00:13:49.800 but the fact that he is

00:13:50.960 behind bars right now

00:13:52.400 is also a gross injustice

00:13:55.640 with no explanation for why

00:13:58.600 and no timeline for it.

00:14:01.100 He hasn't even gotten

00:14:01.840 the Chris Barber treatment

00:14:02.800 of just being able

00:14:03.560 to get released.

00:14:04.580 And even Tamara Leach,

00:14:05.480 she got released

00:14:06.040 at least at first,

00:14:07.080 although it took about 19 days,

00:14:09.140 I think the first time around,

00:14:10.160 and now she winds up

00:14:11.340 exactly where she started.

00:14:12.760 So we'll keep following this.

00:14:14.820 Obviously this week,

00:14:15.780 she's back in court

00:14:16.620 and maybe out again,

00:14:18.080 but at this point,

00:14:18.800 I am not optimistic.

00:14:20.460 We've got to take

00:14:21.180 a quick break here.

00:14:22.160 When we come back,

00:14:22.720 we'll talk about Alberta politics

00:14:24.240 with our new Alberta correspondent,

00:14:26.540 Rachel Emanuel.

00:14:27.320 Stay tuned.

00:14:30.960 You're tuned in

00:14:32.100 to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:14:36.280 Welcome back

00:14:37.140 to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:14:38.640 When the Ontario election

00:14:40.200 was going on,

00:14:41.000 I got all these angry messages,

00:14:42.640 not angry,

00:14:43.240 but pointed messages

00:14:44.700 from people in Alberta,

00:14:46.240 Saskatchewan,

00:14:46.920 and parts of BC

00:14:47.520 saying,

00:14:47.940 oh, you're focused

00:14:48.400 too much on Ontario.

00:14:49.820 And when I've talked about

00:14:50.920 Alberta and Saskatchewan

00:14:51.960 in the past,

00:14:52.720 I get the messages

00:14:53.380 from the Ontarians

00:14:54.200 saying you're focused

00:14:55.400 too much on the West.

00:14:56.360 So to be honest,

00:14:57.920 the Maritimers,

00:14:58.680 you guys have a right

00:14:59.460 to be aggrieved right now

00:15:01.040 because I don't spend

00:15:01.560 nearly enough time

00:15:02.340 talking about what's going on

00:15:03.840 in the Maritimes

00:15:04.520 and also in Newfoundland

00:15:06.080 and Labrador.

00:15:07.280 We'll get to you

00:15:07.960 if stuff starts happening there.

00:15:09.600 But one thing I do want

00:15:10.820 to start talking about

00:15:11.620 a little bit though,

00:15:12.360 because we have

00:15:13.080 the United Conservative Party

00:15:14.640 leadership race,

00:15:16.060 is what's happening there

00:15:17.360 in the bid to

00:15:18.100 not just replace

00:15:18.900 Jason Kenney

00:15:19.560 as UCP leader,

00:15:20.900 but whoever wins this race

00:15:22.280 will become Premier

00:15:23.380 of Alberta.

00:15:24.540 A lot like what's happening

00:15:25.620 in the UK right now,

00:15:26.760 where whoever wins

00:15:27.420 the Tory leadership race

00:15:28.640 gets right to the top spot

00:15:30.340 and becomes Prime Minister.

00:15:32.220 So let's talk about this

00:15:33.400 and some of the other

00:15:33.980 broad issues here.

00:15:35.140 Joining me is

00:15:35.780 Rachel Emanuel,

00:15:37.140 who is True North's

00:15:38.160 new Alberta correspondent.

00:15:40.180 Rachel,

00:15:40.620 good to talk to you.

00:15:41.220 Thanks for coming on the show

00:15:42.200 today and welcome aboard.

00:15:44.260 Yeah, thank you very much.

00:15:45.300 Happy to be on the show

00:15:46.160 and happy to be with True North.

00:15:47.760 I know we've had

00:15:48.380 some conversations about

00:15:49.440 me maybe joining the team

00:15:50.760 a couple times,

00:15:51.480 so it's great to be here

00:15:52.340 at last.

00:15:52.860 I'm really excited about it.

00:15:54.100 And just as a wee bit

00:15:55.280 of Rachel Emanuel trivia,

00:15:57.160 you were there

00:15:57.920 like five seconds

00:15:59.080 before I was pepper sprayed

00:16:00.400 in Ottawa

00:16:01.000 covering the Freedom Convoy.

00:16:03.180 I ran into you

00:16:03.860 in front of the Shadow Laurier.

00:16:05.160 You had the wherewithal

00:16:06.380 to get out of Dodge.

00:16:07.480 I was pepper sprayed

00:16:08.340 moments later.

00:16:08.920 I don't blame you for it,

00:16:10.160 but you were there

00:16:10.900 at the moment it happened

00:16:12.160 or at least just before.

00:16:13.240 So good to see you.

00:16:14.480 Well, I actually have vision

00:16:15.520 in both eyes right now.

00:16:18.180 Let's start off

00:16:19.040 with what's been happening

00:16:19.840 in Alberta politics generally

00:16:21.580 because we have Jason Kenney

00:16:23.540 who effectively lost

00:16:25.780 his leadership review

00:16:26.860 and very quickly

00:16:28.400 a huge leadership race coming.

00:16:30.520 It's wide open.

00:16:31.360 You've got all these

00:16:31.920 ex-Cabinet ministers

00:16:32.740 that are coming in.

00:16:33.900 Is there at this point

00:16:35.280 a theme or a thing

00:16:36.620 that this leadership race

00:16:37.800 is about?

00:16:39.680 I think that that depends

00:16:41.040 on who you are as a voter

00:16:42.200 and what you're looking for

00:16:43.400 in the next leader.

00:16:44.820 I think we're seeing

00:16:45.460 two big questions

00:16:46.100 as what always happens

00:16:47.000 in a leadership race.

00:16:48.040 You have a camp of people

00:16:49.640 who are really just thinking

00:16:51.160 who can win a general election.

00:16:53.160 And so I think

00:16:53.680 what we're seeing

00:16:54.200 with a lot of people

00:16:54.960 that are coming out

00:16:55.760 of Kenny's government,

00:16:56.940 they're saying

00:16:57.880 with some of the other candidates

00:16:59.320 and, you know,

00:16:59.800 from their campaigns,

00:17:00.420 I'm hearing concern

00:17:01.100 that maybe candidates

00:17:01.900 like Danielle Smith

00:17:02.960 or Todd Lowen

00:17:03.880 doesn't have what it takes

00:17:04.860 to win a general election

00:17:06.080 because they are a bit

00:17:07.400 further to the right

00:17:08.140 than some of the candidates

00:17:08.960 that are coming out

00:17:09.560 of Kenny's government.

00:17:10.600 So that's, of course,

00:17:11.380 a question that everyone's asking.

00:17:13.540 Another question is,

00:17:14.460 of course, you know,

00:17:15.220 a lot of people

00:17:15.760 are really unhappy

00:17:16.380 with what the Kenny government

00:17:17.320 did on COVID-19

00:17:18.380 and the policies

00:17:19.080 that were implemented.

00:17:20.220 Of course, pastors here

00:17:21.420 in Alberta

00:17:21.840 were arrested

00:17:22.440 during the pandemic.

00:17:23.640 That is not something

00:17:24.360 the province is ready

00:17:25.180 to forget anytime soon.

00:17:26.960 So we're really seeing

00:17:28.000 those two themes emerge.

00:17:29.120 And I think everyone

00:17:29.880 is kind of saying,

00:17:31.020 you know, Kenny didn't do

00:17:32.020 enough with the federal government

00:17:33.320 and getting a fair deal

00:17:34.820 from Ottawa.

00:17:35.500 We didn't see the action

00:17:36.360 on that that we were hoping for.

00:17:38.180 So I think one of the big questions

00:17:39.660 is who's someone

00:17:40.240 that can win in a general election.

00:17:41.640 Of course, the province

00:17:42.640 has a general election

00:17:43.860 coming up next year,

00:17:44.720 just about six months

00:17:45.580 after their leadership race.

00:17:46.880 So that's really not a lot of time.

00:17:48.720 So they're looking for somebody

00:17:49.940 who can, you know,

00:17:50.640 reunite the caucus,

00:17:51.680 the parties.

00:17:52.320 It's kind of fracturing.

00:17:53.580 There seems to be some divides.

00:17:55.000 You know, it's conservative politics.

00:17:56.760 You always have it

00:17:57.380 in conservative politics.

00:17:58.480 There's different groups.

00:17:59.260 People are very principled

00:18:00.300 and they're not always

00:18:01.300 willing to bend their views

00:18:02.660 for somebody else's

00:18:03.540 to compromise and make it work.

00:18:05.180 So they're looking for someone

00:18:06.220 that can unite the party

00:18:07.300 and win ahead of a general election

00:18:09.200 coming up against

00:18:09.920 Rachel Notley and the NDP.

00:18:11.720 Yeah, I think you raise

00:18:13.340 an important point.

00:18:14.280 And one of the things

00:18:15.060 I felt Jason Kenney

00:18:16.360 was always too quick to do,

00:18:18.660 and there was probably

00:18:19.280 a strategic element there,

00:18:20.660 is say that the only criticism

00:18:22.080 about him was really

00:18:23.720 about the COVID handling.

00:18:24.960 He had said that anyone

00:18:25.860 who was against him

00:18:26.920 was against him

00:18:27.880 because they didn't like lockdowns.

00:18:29.260 They didn't like vaccine

00:18:30.060 mandates.

00:18:30.480 He tried to really do

00:18:32.000 his own version

00:18:32.820 of the fringe minority thing

00:18:34.820 to some extent.

00:18:36.000 And what you just mentioned there,

00:18:37.540 a range of issues

00:18:38.400 that people had

00:18:39.180 with the Kenney government,

00:18:40.760 even pre-COVID

00:18:41.860 or in the very early days of COVID.

00:18:43.540 And yeah, the fair deal.

00:18:44.580 I mean, obviously,

00:18:45.120 it hasn't been top of mind

00:18:46.160 for a lot of Albertans

00:18:47.780 because of pandemic-related stuff.

00:18:49.740 But the equalization referendum

00:18:52.040 was really, I think,

00:18:53.800 for a lot of people,

00:18:55.000 just the beginning

00:18:55.980 of a bigger discussion

00:18:56.900 they want to have

00:18:57.680 about independence

00:18:58.500 that really wasn't happening.

00:19:01.640 Yeah, that's exactly it.

00:19:03.040 There was a lot of unhappiness

00:19:04.320 with the COVID-19 pandemic policies,

00:19:05.940 as you mentioned,

00:19:06.420 but there was also

00:19:06.980 a lot of resentment

00:19:07.560 for other issues.

00:19:08.760 That being said,

00:19:09.400 I don't know

00:19:10.000 if COVID hadn't happened,

00:19:11.560 if Kenney still would have

00:19:12.640 had the same leadership

00:19:13.420 as your results that he had.

00:19:14.860 And, you know,

00:19:15.160 maybe his energy

00:19:15.840 could have been spent more

00:19:16.740 on some of these issues.

00:19:17.640 Obviously, COVID-19

00:19:18.500 was overwhelming

00:19:19.500 for the government

00:19:20.100 and it seemed like

00:19:20.780 sort of all hands on deck

00:19:21.760 to address this issue.

00:19:22.920 And Kenney, of course,

00:19:24.060 was the person who came out

00:19:25.100 and did the press conferences.

00:19:26.240 I think he was in front

00:19:27.020 of the cameras

00:19:27.440 like three times a week.

00:19:28.600 We didn't see that

00:19:29.620 in every other province.

00:19:30.980 Some premiers put their,

00:19:32.300 you know,

00:19:32.640 health officer

00:19:33.260 in front of the cameras.

00:19:34.220 So it's kind of like

00:19:35.060 you've just spent two years

00:19:36.260 seeing Kenney

00:19:36.780 in front of the camera

00:19:37.460 delivering bad news repeatedly.

00:19:39.260 And then we go on

00:19:39.760 to this leadership review.

00:19:40.740 But certainly now

00:19:41.840 that we are looking

00:19:42.560 for a new premier,

00:19:43.560 there's other issues coming up

00:19:44.700 that people had

00:19:45.540 with the Kenney government.

00:19:46.600 And another big thing

00:19:47.300 I'm hearing a lot

00:19:47.820 is just sort of a lack

00:19:48.600 of communication.

00:19:50.080 Albertans didn't really feel

00:19:51.060 like the Kenney government

00:19:51.740 was consulting with them

00:19:52.820 or being clear

00:19:54.000 and open with them

00:19:54.940 about what they were doing

00:19:55.660 on the COVID-19 pandemic.

00:19:57.180 I think it really felt

00:19:57.940 like a top-down approach

00:19:59.000 that Albertans typically

00:19:59.940 really don't appreciate.

00:20:01.220 I don't know if we really

00:20:01.880 see that same sentiment

00:20:02.760 in Ontario.

00:20:03.440 The politics are

00:20:04.020 very different here.

00:20:05.340 So we're seeing

00:20:06.040 some leadership candidates

00:20:06.920 appeal to, you know,

00:20:07.600 we need to communicate better.

00:20:08.960 We need to kind of

00:20:09.600 give the power back

00:20:10.340 to the hands of the members

00:20:11.260 and not have that

00:20:11.900 top-down approach.

00:20:12.980 So these are all issues

00:20:13.860 that we're seeing flow

00:20:14.640 out of the leadership race

00:20:15.700 right now and things

00:20:16.420 that people are talking

00:20:17.100 about and discussing.

00:20:18.360 Yeah, let's talk about

00:20:19.380 some of the players here

00:20:20.320 because you have a lot

00:20:21.220 of former Kenny cabinet

00:20:22.480 ministers, people like

00:20:23.560 Rajan Sani and Lila here

00:20:26.320 and Travis Taves

00:20:27.440 that have stepped forward.

00:20:28.600 Rebecca Schultz,

00:20:29.760 another one who just got

00:20:30.820 a pretty, I'd say,

00:20:31.860 significant endorsement

00:20:32.820 in Ronna Ambrose 0.97

00:20:33.600 coming aboard her campaign.

00:20:35.160 And then you have

00:20:36.040 that Wild Rose flank

00:20:38.020 of Brian Jean

00:20:39.160 and Danielle Smith

00:20:40.140 and you've got

00:20:41.480 some other people.

00:20:42.100 I mean, Todd Lowen,

00:20:42.800 I don't think he's

00:20:43.540 in that top tier right now,

00:20:44.860 but to be fair,

00:20:45.680 he's there and he's

00:20:46.860 appealing to some

00:20:47.560 of those same people.

00:20:48.880 And I think it will

00:20:50.000 be interesting to see

00:20:51.620 which way this goes,

00:20:53.360 even early on,

00:20:54.100 as far as momentum

00:20:54.860 and fundraising and all that,

00:20:56.900 because I would say,

00:20:57.740 certainly from my perspective,

00:20:59.140 and I could have

00:20:59.760 my own little echo chamber here,

00:21:01.440 I would say that

00:21:02.440 there's a lot more momentum

00:21:03.520 behind the Danielle Smiths 0.61

00:21:04.900 and the Brian Jeans

00:21:05.800 because of those

00:21:07.200 COVID frustrations,

00:21:08.300 because of those

00:21:09.020 equalization referendum

00:21:10.300 and broader

00:21:11.320 Western alienation frustrations.

00:21:13.080 But at the same time,

00:21:14.100 if someone is happy

00:21:15.280 with the Kenny government,

00:21:16.180 there's a lot of appeal

00:21:17.600 to people that were

00:21:18.360 in that government,

00:21:19.280 like Rebecca Schultz,

00:21:20.280 like Travis Taves.

00:21:21.400 You have it exactly right.

00:21:22.540 So I'm seeing tons

00:21:23.480 of support for Danielle Smith.

00:21:24.800 I don't think anybody

00:21:25.620 on any campaigns,

00:21:26.860 maybe a couple people,

00:21:27.840 but I've been here

00:21:28.740 at the Calgary Stampede

00:21:29.680 talking to everyone.

00:21:30.520 Everyone seems to be

00:21:31.520 pretty much on agreement.

00:21:32.900 Smith is in the lead

00:21:33.600 right now.

00:21:34.360 She's a clear front runner. 0.95

00:21:35.540 You know,

00:21:35.960 the polling from last month

00:21:37.140 showed Brian Jean

00:21:38.180 was just behind her,

00:21:39.880 like a point behind her,

00:21:40.660 still within the margin of error.

00:21:42.080 I'm not really hearing

00:21:42.920 a lot of support

00:21:43.520 for him at the Stampede.

00:21:44.380 I'm not hearing that people

00:21:45.400 feel super confident

00:21:46.940 in his campaign

00:21:47.620 or believe that he's likely

00:21:48.660 to become the next leader,

00:21:50.040 even though the polling,

00:21:50.820 as I mentioned last month,

00:21:51.700 showed him just behind Smith.

00:21:53.420 But I am hearing,

00:21:54.560 you know,

00:21:54.720 people think Smith

00:21:55.340 is a clear front runner.

00:21:56.240 And that's because

00:21:56.700 she has done such a good job

00:21:58.660 of appealing

00:21:59.340 to those freedom-loving Albertans

00:22:00.900 who are so frustrated

00:22:01.760 with what happened

00:22:02.420 in their province

00:22:02.960 over the last few years.

00:22:04.480 And the thing that

00:22:05.020 all politicians

00:22:05.540 need to remember right now

00:22:06.760 is a lot of people

00:22:07.960 who are in the freedom movement

00:22:09.520 are people that were

00:22:10.260 never involved

00:22:11.060 in politics before.

00:22:12.120 But when they saw

00:22:13.000 what was happening

00:22:13.580 in their country

00:22:14.260 during the COVID-19 pandemic,

00:22:15.540 they thought,

00:22:16.200 I need to get involved now.

00:22:17.760 If there was ever a time

00:22:18.760 to stand up for something,

00:22:19.840 it's today.

00:22:20.900 And so they've been organizing

00:22:21.840 over the last two years.

00:22:23.240 So this has mobilized

00:22:24.380 a lot of Canadians

00:22:25.120 who might not have been

00:22:25.820 involved in politics before.

00:22:27.020 You know,

00:22:27.140 there's just massive email lists.

00:22:28.740 Their organization

00:22:29.260 is very excellent.

00:22:30.360 It's one of the reasons

00:22:31.120 that Kenny had to resign

00:22:32.360 as premier following,

00:22:33.380 you know,

00:22:33.520 his poor leadership review results

00:22:35.020 at just 51.4%

00:22:36.720 of party support.

00:22:37.800 So she's done a really good job

00:22:39.060 of appealing to those people.

00:22:40.040 She's been very clear

00:22:40.780 we're not going to do

00:22:41.480 lockdowns again.

00:22:42.560 If Ottawa pressures us,

00:22:43.680 we're going to have to resist

00:22:44.600 that pressure on vaccine mandates

00:22:46.160 and lockdowns.

00:22:47.160 And then, you know,

00:22:47.520 she's been talking about

00:22:48.380 an Alberta Sovereignty Act,

00:22:49.560 which would mean the province

00:22:50.680 wouldn't enforce federal laws

00:22:52.080 that they didn't like

00:22:52.860 or think were advantageous

00:22:53.820 to Alberta.

00:22:54.680 So she's been very clear

00:22:55.940 at appealing to those,

00:22:56.720 you know,

00:22:57.240 to those Albertans

00:22:57.960 and even things

00:22:58.760 on like nominations.

00:22:59.840 Nominations are open

00:23:00.660 during the leadership race.

00:23:01.620 Some people think

00:23:02.200 that shouldn't be the case.

00:23:03.480 They think they should wait

00:23:04.180 for the new leader

00:23:04.780 to be chosen to open noms.

00:23:06.300 And she said,

00:23:06.940 you know,

00:23:07.160 if the members in that area

00:23:08.180 are unhappy,

00:23:08.780 I would consider

00:23:09.420 reopening nominations.

00:23:10.880 And that is some

00:23:11.360 of the more moderates

00:23:12.320 a bit concerned

00:23:13.020 because they think

00:23:13.620 some of these ideas

00:23:14.220 are a bit radical,

00:23:15.240 like reopening nominations.

00:23:17.160 What kind of legal issues

00:23:18.220 could that cause?

00:23:19.220 As well as, you know,

00:23:20.120 an Alberta Sovereignty Act.

00:23:21.180 Is it really something

00:23:21.860 that's practical?

00:23:22.980 Will it give us

00:23:23.640 economic certainty?

00:23:24.700 I think we'll see

00:23:25.160 a lot of investment pull.

00:23:26.600 But she's definitely

00:23:27.400 pulling ahead right now

00:23:28.540 because she's appealing

00:23:29.320 to those people.

00:23:30.060 And I think they've just

00:23:30.760 organized so well

00:23:31.740 and so efficiently

00:23:32.460 over the last few years.

00:23:33.720 The concerns I'm hearing

00:23:34.580 with her campaign 0.93

00:23:35.260 is whether or not

00:23:35.900 she can win a general election.

00:23:37.080 And I don't have

00:23:38.080 a lot of clear answers on that.

00:23:39.200 I'm not hearing a lot

00:23:39.900 of clear answers

00:23:40.480 about that at this time.

00:23:42.260 Just on that note,

00:23:43.320 and I know you're a recent,

00:23:44.900 a relatively recent

00:23:45.780 Alberta transplant,

00:23:46.860 but there was a lot

00:23:48.280 of bad blood

00:23:49.100 to Danielle Smith

00:23:50.020 after the whole

00:23:51.200 floor-crossing debacle.

00:23:52.960 And she's, I mean,

00:23:54.180 had to answer to that

00:23:55.060 time and time again.

00:23:56.160 But have people forgiven that?

00:23:58.640 Have they forgotten it?

00:23:59.780 Or has the political discussion

00:24:01.980 just changed so much

00:24:03.320 that they're operating

00:24:04.140 on a different wavelength now?

00:24:05.340 The people that were against her,

00:24:07.060 a lot of them came

00:24:07.740 from that Wild Rose side,

00:24:09.240 the right flank of the party.

00:24:10.440 Have they just moved on

00:24:11.620 from that entirely?

00:24:13.880 I don't think

00:24:14.580 anybody's forgotten about it.

00:24:15.860 I think it's something

00:24:16.420 that's always there

00:24:17.180 in the back of people's minds.

00:24:18.420 It's something that gets

00:24:19.040 brought up very often.

00:24:21.040 It's just,

00:24:21.880 I think she spent six years

00:24:23.040 on the radio,

00:24:23.640 and I think a lot of people

00:24:24.720 have forgiven her for it,

00:24:26.080 and they're ready

00:24:26.540 to give her another chance.

00:24:27.960 So that's one big part of it.

00:24:29.280 As I mentioned,

00:24:30.020 you know,

00:24:30.220 there are still some people

00:24:30.920 that hold on to it.

00:24:32.100 People have pretty clear,

00:24:33.520 when you're speaking to people,

00:24:34.660 it's pretty clear right away.

00:24:35.640 They say,

00:24:35.920 I'll never trust her again

00:24:36.680 because of the floor crosser.

00:24:37.920 Or they say,

00:24:38.300 you know what,

00:24:38.560 we heard her on the radio

00:24:39.400 for six years.

00:24:40.480 We understand why that happened

00:24:42.120 and where she was coming from.

00:24:43.180 It's a different time now.

00:24:44.400 So there's definitely

00:24:45.180 a big wave of people

00:24:46.340 that are ready to forgive her.

00:24:47.720 They might not have forgotten

00:24:48.460 that it's happened,

00:24:49.140 but they understand

00:24:49.820 why it happened.

00:24:50.840 And I think that,

00:24:51.500 as we saw with Ralph Klein,

00:24:52.720 who was one of Alberta's

00:24:53.520 most popular premiers,

00:24:55.120 if you have a leader,

00:24:56.140 a political leader,

00:24:56.720 who's willing to say,

00:24:57.540 you know,

00:24:57.740 I made a mistake,

00:24:58.880 and explain to people

00:24:59.760 what that mistake was

00:25:00.920 and why they made it,

00:25:02.120 people are very quick

00:25:03.000 to forgive them

00:25:03.880 and move on from it.

00:25:05.000 And I think that was,

00:25:05.780 again,

00:25:05.900 one of the criticisms

00:25:06.620 with Kenny

00:25:07.140 is people didn't feel

00:25:08.160 like they got

00:25:08.520 a clear answer from him

00:25:09.520 or a clear owning of mistakes,

00:25:11.860 just sort of a,

00:25:12.780 well, you know,

00:25:13.200 we did the best we could

00:25:14.260 and people just

00:25:15.560 were not satisfied

00:25:16.160 with his answer.

00:25:16.960 So I do get the sentiment

00:25:17.900 that people are ready

00:25:18.620 to forgive her.

00:25:19.360 You know,

00:25:19.500 there's, of course,

00:25:20.040 people that are not

00:25:20.900 going to believe her

00:25:21.520 or trust her again

00:25:22.100 as a politician,

00:25:22.980 but the sentiments

00:25:23.800 definitely seem to be changing.

00:25:26.040 Let's turn to some

00:25:26.660 of the bigger picture stuff.

00:25:27.760 Obviously,

00:25:28.080 you're coming aboard,

00:25:28.840 not just as True North's

00:25:30.360 next Alberta correspondent,

00:25:31.960 but really I think

00:25:32.700 it's True North's

00:25:33.220 first Alberta correspondent.

00:25:34.520 We've had Alberta coverage.

00:25:36.120 I know a lot of it

00:25:36.700 has fallen on me,

00:25:37.500 which is just what

00:25:38.100 Albertans want,

00:25:38.780 someone coming in

00:25:39.340 from Ontario

00:25:39.880 every time something

00:25:40.580 happens to report on it,

00:25:42.440 even though I do have

00:25:43.340 an Alberta sensibility,

00:25:44.680 many have argued.

00:25:45.460 But what is it

00:25:46.720 that you think

00:25:47.420 are the big issues

00:25:48.380 on the Alberta agenda

00:25:49.760 right now?

00:25:52.800 HS,

00:25:53.360 people are really unhappy

00:25:54.320 with their health care

00:25:55.080 and they're looking

00:25:55.640 for someone who's saying

00:25:56.560 we cannot have

00:25:57.920 unelected public health officials

00:25:59.780 making decisions

00:26:00.920 for the province again.

00:26:02.220 So they're looking

00:26:02.680 for political leaders

00:26:03.960 that are going to

00:26:04.380 offer answers on that.

00:26:05.980 Just to jump in there,

00:26:07.500 do you think this is

00:26:08.060 like a general concern

00:26:09.800 that everyone in Canada

00:26:10.600 is dealing with

00:26:11.160 or do you think

00:26:11.540 it's particularly acute

00:26:14.200 for Albertans?

00:26:15.720 It's definitely a concern

00:26:16.900 that Conservatives,

00:26:17.820 Libertarians across Canada

00:26:18.940 are feeling right now

00:26:19.900 and I'm hearing it brought up

00:26:21.580 in Alberta politics

00:26:22.840 at the grassroots level

00:26:23.720 at like local meetings

00:26:24.660 all the time.

00:26:25.580 It gets talked about

00:26:26.140 all the times

00:26:26.660 people are saying,

00:26:27.340 you know,

00:26:27.500 this is really a problem

00:26:28.500 of how our public system

00:26:29.440 is designed

00:26:29.980 and a problem with AHS.

00:26:31.520 So how can we redesign

00:26:32.460 our public health system

00:26:33.580 so that we don't have

00:26:34.640 a situation like this again?

00:26:35.920 And again,

00:26:36.500 you know,

00:26:36.700 candidates like Daniel Smith

00:26:37.680 and Todd Lowen,

00:26:38.340 they have specific solutions

00:26:39.620 and they have ideas

00:26:40.980 as to how to address

00:26:41.800 this so that we don't

00:26:43.700 have public health orders

00:26:44.540 that are just passed

00:26:45.540 without, you know,

00:26:46.460 public officials,

00:26:47.480 elected officials

00:26:48.160 being able to debate

00:26:48.960 them in the legislature

00:26:50.040 and decide if they're

00:26:50.780 actually something

00:26:51.280 they'd like to proceed with.

00:26:52.740 So I would say AHS

00:26:53.780 is at the top of mind.

00:26:55.080 Again, you know,

00:26:55.880 Freedom from Ottawa,

00:26:56.620 some more fairment

00:26:58.340 on equalization payments.

00:27:00.460 You know,

00:27:00.640 people are really unhappy

00:27:01.400 with the high taxes

00:27:02.160 right now

00:27:02.460 and the high cost of living.

00:27:03.620 Government spending

00:27:04.200 is, of course,

00:27:04.740 an issue.

00:27:06.680 Yeah,

00:27:06.980 those are the big issues

00:27:07.860 that I'm seeing

00:27:08.400 come across the board

00:27:09.240 right now

00:27:09.660 that get kind of brought up

00:27:10.700 everywhere that we're going.

00:27:11.720 But affordability

00:27:12.380 is, I think,

00:27:12.880 top of mind

00:27:13.300 for everybody in Canada.

00:27:14.700 So we're seeing

00:27:15.540 a lot of conversation

00:27:16.280 around that as well.

00:27:17.620 During the early part

00:27:18.860 of the Conservative

00:27:19.600 leadership race,

00:27:20.600 keeping in mind,

00:27:21.160 you don't really have

00:27:21.940 any candidates

00:27:23.180 from the West.

00:27:24.200 I know Pierre Polyev

00:27:24.980 was born there,

00:27:25.700 so he's tried to say

00:27:26.500 that he's the Western candidate.

00:27:28.180 Lesley Lewis did very well

00:27:29.320 there in the last

00:27:29.940 leadership race,

00:27:30.600 so she's trying to say

00:27:31.680 that that makes her

00:27:32.320 a Western candidate.

00:27:33.280 But you have Ontarians 0.82

00:27:35.080 and a Quebecer

00:27:36.700 that are running

00:27:37.720 in this race,

00:27:38.300 and it really didn't seem

00:27:39.700 like Alberta issues

00:27:41.080 or Western issues

00:27:41.860 were getting much discussion

00:27:42.860 at all in the leadership race

00:27:44.840 until, I'd say,

00:27:45.720 the last week.

00:27:46.360 Once they all want

00:27:46.980 to go to Alberta

00:27:47.540 and get their white hats

00:27:48.460 for the Calgary Stampede,

00:27:49.940 they start talking about,

00:27:50.700 oh, I want to change

00:27:51.360 equalization and all that.

00:27:52.780 But do you feel

00:27:53.860 that there has been

00:27:55.180 enough of a push

00:27:56.600 by the federal

00:27:57.860 Conservative leadership

00:27:58.800 candidates to go after

00:28:00.060 these Western issues?

00:28:02.720 I think so.

00:28:03.580 I think they've all

00:28:04.080 done different things

00:28:04.680 to sort of try

00:28:05.180 to appeal to the West.

00:28:06.260 The question is

00:28:06.740 whether they really mean it

00:28:07.740 and if we'll see action

00:28:08.680 on that once they're elected.

00:28:09.900 I think, you know,

00:28:10.840 everyone knows,

00:28:11.420 like even Patrick Brown

00:28:12.300 very early into his campaign

00:28:13.620 when Michelle Rumpel-Garner

00:28:15.080 was still his campaign chair,

00:28:16.120 he released like a whole platform

00:28:17.580 on how we would deal

00:28:18.300 with issues in the West.

00:28:19.080 We saw something similar

00:28:20.060 from Jean Charest,

00:28:20.840 I believe it was just

00:28:21.740 early last week.

00:28:23.000 So, you know,

00:28:23.740 they are coming out

00:28:24.480 with proposals

00:28:25.000 that specifically address

00:28:26.180 Western issues.

00:28:27.280 It's just the question

00:28:27.940 of how much they really mean it

00:28:29.220 and how much they're going

00:28:29.820 to advocate for these issues

00:28:30.960 once they're in elected office

00:28:32.440 and, you know,

00:28:33.220 hold the highest office

00:28:33.940 of the land.

00:28:34.480 So I think that's sort of

00:28:35.540 a question everyone

00:28:36.100 is wondering, you know,

00:28:36.920 trustability.

00:28:37.620 But, you know,

00:28:38.400 Pierre Polyev is incredibly

00:28:39.500 popular out here.

00:28:40.960 He's pulled massive crowds

00:28:42.160 to his rallies in Edmonton.

00:28:43.680 There was 4,000 people

00:28:45.060 at his rally,

00:28:46.400 you know, a couple months ago.

00:28:47.440 So he's just pulling

00:28:48.260 massive crowds

00:28:48.820 all across Canada

00:28:49.720 and we're definitely seeing

00:28:50.960 like a ton of support

00:28:51.720 for him here.

00:28:52.380 So, you know,

00:28:52.980 maybe he hasn't lived

00:28:53.840 in Calgary anytime soon

00:28:54.960 but I think people still

00:28:56.120 like to see him a little bit

00:28:56.900 as one of their own.

00:28:58.560 Drew North,

00:28:59.260 Alberta correspondent

00:29:00.220 Rachel Emanuel.

00:29:01.220 Rachel, thanks for coming on

00:29:02.420 and welcome again to the team.

00:29:03.600 Great to be working with you.

00:29:04.560 Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:05.220 Thank you.

00:29:06.060 One thing I have got to say,

00:29:07.420 just talking about

00:29:08.100 those Alberta issues

00:29:09.140 and the Alberta agenda,

00:29:10.140 it was interesting

00:29:10.660 that energy didn't come up

00:29:11.860 and I think a part of that

00:29:13.160 is because in an Alberta

00:29:14.320 Conservative context

00:29:15.460 and even like a Canadian

00:29:17.020 Conservative Party context,

00:29:18.700 it's just assumed

00:29:19.900 that you're pro-energy.

00:29:21.140 Like everyone in the race

00:29:22.520 is pro-energy.

00:29:23.720 That's like one of the most

00:29:24.460 uncontroversial things

00:29:25.580 you can do

00:29:26.240 in the context of being

00:29:28.060 a Canadian Conservative.

00:29:29.680 It's, I mean,

00:29:30.380 it shouldn't be controversial.

00:29:31.160 I guess if you're from Quebec,

00:29:32.600 it might be a bit challenging

00:29:33.580 and that's what Jean Charest

00:29:34.860 has been criticized for

00:29:36.480 but all of them are.

00:29:38.000 So it's interesting

00:29:38.760 that it doesn't actually

00:29:39.500 need to be an issue

00:29:40.520 in Alberta politics

00:29:42.020 but I did want to share

00:29:43.300 an interview

00:29:43.720 and this one is actually

00:29:44.900 a couple of months old now

00:29:45.900 but we've been waiting

00:29:46.500 for the issues to arise

00:29:47.580 to make it timely.

00:29:49.300 I sat down at the Canada

00:29:50.680 Strong and Free

00:29:51.320 Networking Conference

00:29:52.160 with Gwyn Morgan

00:29:52.960 who is a legend

00:29:54.360 in Canadian industry

00:29:55.660 and also the Canadian

00:29:56.880 oil and gas sector

00:29:58.300 in particular.

00:29:59.580 He was the man

00:30:00.460 who built and created

00:30:01.780 and made what it was

00:30:03.020 and Canna,

00:30:04.120 which has now ceased to be

00:30:05.820 in a quite tragic turn

00:30:07.080 of events,

00:30:07.540 a Canadian company.

00:30:08.340 It's now domiciled

00:30:09.660 in the US

00:30:10.160 and goes by the name

00:30:11.140 Ovintiv

00:30:11.820 which was something

00:30:12.860 we actually spoke

00:30:13.940 to Gwyn Morgan

00:30:14.680 about back when

00:30:15.840 that happened

00:30:16.380 a couple of years ago now

00:30:17.660 but this was my conversation

00:30:19.340 in Ottawa

00:30:19.860 with Gwyn Morgan.

00:30:21.360 Gwyn, good to see you

00:30:22.460 in person.

00:30:22.900 Thanks for your time today.

00:30:23.660 Thank you.

00:30:24.640 We've heard a little bit

00:30:25.880 in the leadership race

00:30:26.920 about the oil

00:30:28.040 and gas sector in Canada,

00:30:29.300 about energy policy.

00:30:30.880 Would you say

00:30:31.580 as someone who's worked

00:30:32.720 for years in this sector

00:30:34.080 that the issues

00:30:34.880 connected to it

00:30:35.660 are getting enough

00:30:36.260 attention lately?

00:30:36.920 Well, I think they're

00:30:38.300 getting more attention

00:30:39.100 than ever

00:30:39.680 because you start

00:30:41.620 with the fossil fuel

00:30:42.660 thing itself.

00:30:44.580 The reality is

00:30:45.820 the world has now realized

00:30:47.220 that fossil fuels

00:30:49.500 are fundamental

00:30:50.360 to both their very economic

00:30:52.700 and even their physical survival

00:30:54.400 and we happen to have

00:30:56.240 a country that's got

00:30:59.440 the third largest reserves

00:31:00.560 of the world

00:31:01.160 has sort of turned itself off

00:31:05.180 leaving President Putin

00:31:07.480 and Russia

00:31:08.080 to control the oil supply

00:31:10.100 and this has now become

00:31:13.000 and so now we have

00:31:14.020 a situation where

00:31:14.820 there are actually

00:31:15.220 energy crises,

00:31:17.300 fossil fuel crises

00:31:18.380 and they're going

00:31:19.460 to keep on going

00:31:20.320 and they're going

00:31:20.860 to affect

00:31:21.340 not only the developed world

00:31:22.780 but the undeveloped world.

00:31:24.840 So this is the legacy

00:31:26.400 of the Trudeau government's

00:31:28.940 anti-oil and gas policy

00:31:30.580 for a country

00:31:31.640 that has the third largest

00:31:32.660 reserves in the world.

00:31:33.760 We're seeing,

00:31:34.800 especially in Europe

00:31:35.560 right now,

00:31:36.160 countries like Germany

00:31:37.220 and Hungary

00:31:38.340 that have their energy

00:31:40.000 sectors entirely dependent

00:31:41.700 or significantly dependent

00:31:43.780 on Russia particularly.

00:31:46.160 When you were,

00:31:47.100 you know,

00:31:47.660 actively working

00:31:48.380 in the oil and gas sector,

00:31:49.400 was this a part

00:31:50.080 of your pitch

00:31:50.640 to countries

00:31:51.240 that you have

00:31:52.400 to be very focused

00:31:54.020 on and very aware

00:31:55.160 of the problems

00:31:56.460 of becoming reliant

00:31:58.020 on Russian oil

00:31:59.200 and other dictatorship oil?

00:32:02.280 Well, you know,

00:32:03.100 I lived,

00:32:04.020 my career was in

00:32:05.640 what I would call

00:32:06.160 the golden years

00:32:06.880 for the industry

00:32:07.440 where we didn't have

00:32:08.480 an anti-industry government.

00:32:12.260 You didn't need

00:32:13.100 to put an aggressive

00:32:13.720 sales pitch on

00:32:14.460 to get them

00:32:14.780 to buy Canadian oil.

00:32:16.000 What we were doing

00:32:16.880 was providing jobs

00:32:18.080 and the principal source

00:32:19.700 of revenue

00:32:20.140 for the country

00:32:20.800 both domestically

00:32:21.780 and exports.

00:32:24.200 And we were

00:32:24.980 a growing business

00:32:25.840 and we were

00:32:26.440 a thriving economy

00:32:29.700 because of that.

00:32:30.680 So we didn't have

00:32:31.520 to sell it to people.

00:32:33.220 And people needed,

00:32:34.420 they needed energy.

00:32:35.580 But you know,

00:32:36.260 the interesting thing

00:32:36.980 is that most people

00:32:39.580 don't realize

00:32:40.340 that in the last

00:32:41.880 10 years,

00:32:42.940 well,

00:32:45.640 I guess

00:32:45.940 the last 10 years,

00:32:47.400 prior,

00:32:47.820 just prior to this pandemic,

00:32:49.960 the oil demand

00:32:52.200 had reached

00:32:52.560 75 million barrels

00:32:53.880 a day.

00:32:55.300 Then we had

00:32:55.980 the pandemic,

00:32:58.480 of course,

00:32:58.780 we also had

00:32:59.500 these various years

00:33:01.360 of these annual

00:33:03.560 shindigs 0.99

00:33:05.120 where people flew in

00:33:06.100 by jet planes

00:33:06.880 to talk about,

00:33:08.060 you know,

00:33:08.580 saving the world

00:33:09.940 from fossil fuel emissions.

00:33:11.740 and we went,

00:33:14.780 so we went from there

00:33:15.780 to a situation

00:33:18.760 where now

00:33:19.360 the demand

00:33:20.080 is 100 million barrels

00:33:21.320 a day.

00:33:21.860 All during the COP26

00:33:23.660 stuff and everything else.

00:33:25.280 And the forecast now

00:33:26.420 by the IEA

00:33:27.880 are going to 110.

00:33:30.120 And we're having trouble

00:33:30.960 getting 100.

00:33:31.980 So right now

00:33:33.060 we're in a fossil fuel,

00:33:34.680 huge fossil fuel problem.

00:33:37.920 And it's,

00:33:38.400 and then of course,

00:33:38.980 as you say,

00:33:39.660 Andrew,

00:33:40.040 the other problem

00:33:41.480 in Europe

00:33:42.060 is the natural gas issue.

00:33:44.700 I mean,

00:33:45.360 here's Germany

00:33:46.400 with nuclear power.

00:33:49.900 And you know,

00:33:50.380 people are talking

00:33:50.940 to come back

00:33:51.480 to nuclear power

00:33:52.220 right now.

00:33:53.080 Shutting down

00:33:53.600 all the plants

00:33:54.160 so they could,

00:33:54.740 they could get

00:33:56.920 their energy

00:33:57.540 from,

00:33:57.980 from windmills

00:34:00.320 and power

00:34:00.760 and,

00:34:01.080 and solar panels.

00:34:03.600 That doesn't work

00:34:04.320 very well.

00:34:04.900 So now they're

00:34:05.320 dependent on Russia.

00:34:06.020 So we have

00:34:07.360 the oil industry,

00:34:08.180 gas industry

00:34:09.100 in Europe

00:34:10.160 for gas business,

00:34:11.540 gas consumers

00:34:12.220 dependent on Russia.

00:34:13.600 And we have

00:34:14.140 the world

00:34:14.700 dependent on oil,

00:34:17.240 Russia for oil.

00:34:18.520 And this is the legacy

00:34:19.620 of the,

00:34:21.020 of the movement

00:34:21.780 to get off fossil fuels.

00:34:24.420 Yeah,

00:34:24.940 and I think

00:34:25.300 that's the big

00:34:26.420 lie in all of this

00:34:27.540 is that when people

00:34:28.320 talk about

00:34:28.980 easing our reliance

00:34:30.460 on oil,

00:34:32.140 all they're really

00:34:33.180 doing is easing

00:34:34.280 their reliance

00:34:34.960 on domestic oil

00:34:36.000 production

00:34:36.500 because the need

00:34:37.700 itself has not

00:34:38.600 been replaced.

00:34:39.500 And this is such

00:34:40.120 a fundamental thing.

00:34:41.360 I'm not an expert

00:34:41.900 in it by any stretch,

00:34:42.780 but I see it

00:34:43.400 that they're not

00:34:44.680 doing anything

00:34:45.180 because that magical

00:34:46.160 alternative energy

00:34:47.000 source that's going

00:34:47.800 to replicate the energy

00:34:48.840 we need at the cost

00:34:49.880 that we need

00:34:50.400 doesn't exist yet.

00:34:51.560 It does not exist.

00:34:52.820 You know,

00:34:53.160 I'm an engineer,

00:34:54.080 of course,

00:34:54.320 and I always say

00:34:56.320 that politicians

00:34:57.760 can't chain physics.

00:35:00.660 They may think

00:35:01.440 they can,

00:35:01.920 some of them.

00:35:02.440 The physics

00:35:03.000 of how much energy

00:35:03.880 you can get

00:35:04.180 out of fossil fuels

00:35:05.100 or out of wind

00:35:06.820 and solar

00:35:07.240 when it's minus

00:35:08.380 20 degrees in Canada

00:35:09.660 with no sun

00:35:10.340 in the winter

00:35:10.740 and you're trying

00:35:11.560 to heat your home,

00:35:12.260 good luck.

00:35:13.840 So it's all

00:35:14.720 so obvious.

00:35:16.360 You know,

00:35:16.600 the thing that always

00:35:17.420 struck me is

00:35:18.180 how obvious

00:35:19.300 these things are.

00:35:20.680 Eighty-four percent

00:35:21.480 of the current

00:35:22.180 energy supply

00:35:24.100 and demand

00:35:24.740 in the world

00:35:25.080 is supplied

00:35:25.540 by fossil fuels.

00:35:26.780 There isn't anything else.

00:35:28.480 Nuclear power

00:35:29.140 will come,

00:35:30.160 but even that

00:35:30.820 can't put that

00:35:32.660 in cars and airplanes.

00:35:34.260 So it's just a,

00:35:37.100 I don't know

00:35:37.540 how to put it.

00:35:38.320 It's become

00:35:39.000 like a religion,

00:35:40.900 a myth,

00:35:42.540 and people

00:35:43.980 don't think through

00:35:45.900 the obvious

00:35:47.720 holes in that myth.

00:35:49.260 Do you feel

00:35:51.880 like the battle

00:35:54.100 has been lost

00:35:54.880 on this already

00:35:55.660 and that even

00:35:56.120 if you were to get

00:35:56.700 a pro-energy

00:35:57.780 conservative government

00:35:58.780 in,

00:35:59.220 that the culture

00:35:59.800 is moving

00:36:00.360 so much against it

00:36:01.560 that you can't

00:36:02.040 turn back?

00:36:02.520 Or do you feel

00:36:02.960 that people will

00:36:03.580 have a reckoning

00:36:04.660 with this

00:36:05.020 at some point?

00:36:05.720 Oh,

00:36:05.860 I don't think

00:36:06.200 it's gone

00:36:09.000 beyond politics now.

00:36:10.180 When people

00:36:10.460 can't heat their homes, 0.66

00:36:11.840 they can't drive

00:36:12.860 their cars,

00:36:13.820 when there's people

00:36:14.440 throughout the world

00:36:15.200 without fertilizer

00:36:16.840 for their farms.

00:36:19.100 People are starving.

00:36:20.740 We don't have

00:36:21.440 to talk about

00:36:22.300 why we need

00:36:24.760 fossil fuels.

00:36:25.740 There's never

00:36:26.300 been a bigger lesson

00:36:27.660 right now

00:36:28.440 at this moment.

00:36:30.440 Gwen Morgan,

00:36:31.300 thank you.

00:36:32.000 My thanks again

00:36:32.800 to Gwen Morgan

00:36:33.740 for sitting down

00:36:34.560 with me at the

00:36:35.240 Canada Strong

00:36:36.040 and Free Networking

00:36:36.940 Conference.

00:36:37.720 And I'll certainly

00:36:38.600 be at that conference

00:36:39.420 next year,

00:36:39.960 but they have

00:36:40.260 another one coming

00:36:40.900 up in September

00:36:41.780 in Red Deer

00:36:43.100 that I hope

00:36:43.680 to be at as well.

00:36:44.420 They're doing

00:36:44.680 some great stuff.

00:36:45.480 Jamil Giovanni

00:36:46.140 has now taken

00:36:47.460 the reins

00:36:47.880 and they are

00:36:48.360 great friends

00:36:49.100 of True North.

00:36:50.080 That does it for us

00:36:51.200 for today.

00:36:52.000 We will be back

00:36:52.640 in a couple days' time

00:36:53.440 with the next part

00:36:54.140 of our Conservative

00:36:55.120 Leadership Series.

00:36:56.520 Next up is my interview

00:36:57.880 with Scott Atchison.

00:36:59.260 You won't want

00:36:59.640 to miss that

00:37:00.060 coming down the way

00:37:01.040 in just two days' time.

00:37:02.820 In the meantime,

00:37:03.480 though,

00:37:03.640 hope you all have

00:37:04.340 a wonderful rest

00:37:05.460 of the day

00:37:05.840 and rest of the week.

00:37:07.000 Canada's most

00:37:07.820 irreverent talk show

00:37:08.600 here on True North.

00:37:09.620 Thank you,

00:37:10.100 God bless,

00:37:10.840 and good day to you all.

00:37:11.740 Thanks for listening

00:37:12.320 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:37:14.040 Support the program

00:37:14.840 by donating to True North

00:37:16.100 at www.tnc.news.

00:37:19.500 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - July 11, 2022

Tamara Lich's imprisonment is an affront to justice

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