Tamara Lich speaks out
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 12 minutes
Words per minute
195.72467
Harmful content
Misogyny
9
sentences flagged
Toxicity
2
sentences flagged
Hate speech
5
sentences flagged
Summary
Tamara Leach is the author of Hold the Line: My Story from the Heart of the Freedom Convoy, a new book about her experience in the federal prison system. She has been in and out of prison for over a year and a half now, and in that time, she has had to deal with the consequences of being on bail.
Transcript
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This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
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Hello and welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
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This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North, Wednesday, June 21st.
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I was so excited about this one that I thought yesterday was the 21st and it was actually the 20th.
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Anyway, I am now starting off the show by talking about dates again.
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But nevertheless, it is going to be a great show because we are delving into an issue and a series of issues, I would say,
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with a woman that has been very difficult to pin down for reasons that will become abundantly clear in a moment.
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Her name is Tamara Leach. You may have heard of her.
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She was involved a little over a year and a half ago in the, well, not actually that long.
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No, it was about 16 months ago or so in this big world-shaking protest, certainly Ottawa-shaking protest.
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She has been through the absolute ringer and it is not over yet.
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She faces criminal charges still for which she has to answer in Ottawa court in just a couple of months.
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But nevertheless, she found the time in the midst of all of these trials to write a new book called Hold the Line,
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The foreword is by another woman who might be familiar to you, my colleague Rupa Subramanya.
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And I had the opportunity last week to sit down with Tamara in depth and talk not just about her book,
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And as you'll hear in the opening moments of this discussion,
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there's a reason it has taken so long for us to sit down and do it.
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And it's not for lack of trying or lack of will on either of our parts.
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Sitting down with the woman who made waves around Ottawa, the country, and I would even venture to say the world.
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It is now the author of the fabulous new book, Hold the Line, Tamara Leach.
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Tamara, it's good to sit down with you like this.
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Well, that's actually a great place to start on this because you and I have tried to do this for many, many months.
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And I have never shared this with anyone before.
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But at one point, you and I literally had an interview scheduled that you missed because you were in jail.
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Since then, well, I did a month in jail after that.
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And I think just the overly broad conditions that I was under, you know, Keith and I had to spend a lot of time, even when I decided to come out after the POEC and start talking, we had to go through those with a fine-tooth comb because they're so terribly worded and so broad that they didn't want me speaking, period.
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For people that haven't followed the post-convoy travails that you've had here, what has been the trajectory?
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What has been the story that you've had to basically live, especially earlier on in 2022?
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And, you know, I've lost so many of my freedoms, my freedom of speech, you know, gathering or, you know, I'm not allowed to organize protests or rallies.
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And there were a group that I started with going to rallies and medicine had is meets every Saturday.
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Yeah, a lot of it's been a challenge, but the social media thing is kind of bittersweet.
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I mean, sometimes I do wish that I would have a bail condition preventing me from using Twitter because it's such a cesspool at times.
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But there's a difference between choosing to decide, like choosing not to do something and being told that you can't and threatened to be imprisoned if you do.
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And it's crazy because I haven't even been found guilty of a crime, you know.
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Well, and the crimes, I mean, quote unquote, of which you've been accused, anyone would say on the surface are minor crimes.
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But the experiences that you've had have been, as we've seen certainly in recent months, more severe than people with violent criminal records are being forced to deal with.
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So how has that felt when you've read all these news stories in the last few months about people who have committed sexual assaults, assaults, even murder while out on bail?
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Well, here you are out on bail as well and having been thrown back in jail.
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Well, that's the irony is a lot of those situations, those guys were convicted felons, like multiple, multiple convictions and violent convictions.
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And I've never even been in Facebook jail until this happened.
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So it's quite obvious that it's political, I think, and a bit vengeful, maybe.
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It doesn't really make any sense how Chris and I are being treated.
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And we got our dates for the trial in the fall, and there's like 16 days of trial for a mischief charge.
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That you'll have to, for the first time, or get to, depending on how you look at it, answer for what you did.
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And I'm curious about your outlook going into that, because when you were at the Public Order Emergency Commission, because of all these bail conditions, that was actually the first time you had really been able to speak about your experience and speak about the convoy through your own perspective.
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On the criminal side, it's now been a year and seven months by the time this trial comes up that you've had to live with these charges hanging over your head, and you've never really been able to answer to them until now.
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Well, I think, honestly, until the report was released, I felt very confident that I'd never see the inside of a jail cell again.
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And then that report was released, and I thought, well, maybe.
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And, you know, the David Johnston whitewash that we just witnessed, it's all unsettling because you just don't know anymore.
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You know, I don't really have any anxiety going into trial.
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And I consider myself actually lucky because I don't have anything to lose except time.
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Whereas Chris Barber is, you know, in a completely different situation.
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And he's still got, I think he's still got a teenage daughter at home.
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So one thing that was quite striking reading your book is that a lot of it is looking back.
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And, I mean, you actually spend a fair amount of time talking about all the situations that led to it, the restrictions, the mandates, the lockdowns.
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But there are some parts, I don't know if it's intentional on your part, where you're talking about things in the present tense.
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Like one that stuck out to me is when you said, I've heard Tom Marazzo is having a rough time or something to that effect.
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And you sort of, as a reader, are jarred by that.
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Because, oh, wow, she's still not able to talk to this guy who she knows and cares about except for in the presence of counsel.
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And I think that's an important point for people is that while the convoy is easy to look at as a piece of history because it was, for you, this is very much a present.
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And I think a lot of people have just moved on, as you do.
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But for us, we are still living it every single day, you know?
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So, yeah, it's been quite an experience, to put it mildly.
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Let's talk a little bit about what you went through in jail.
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Because one of the things that I found, and this is probably the story of the convoy in and of itself, is you had all these people that were coming up to you through your justice process that were supporters.
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You had jail guards, you had a court employee, you had police officers that were all coming up to you.
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And I'm guessing quite quietly telling you that people were standing behind you.
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But you were still part of this, and they were still part of this apparatus that was trying to make you a criminal.
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And did you feel conflicted in where those people were coming from?
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Because they were still agents of this process.
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And, I mean, like, I think I talk about Robert in my book.
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I mean, that was just an incredible experience.
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This is the courtroom employee in Ottawa, right?
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There was another guard there that texted his wife because he was taking me down, and he didn't put my shackles on either.
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Like, typically they put them on every time you leave the courtroom.
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These people are just trying to feed their families, I think.
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And I know, like in Robert's case, like, he looked like he was going to cry.
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He was just devastated that he had to put handcuffs on me.
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So I think it's hard on them, too, because they do have families to feed, right?
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And I think a lot of people get into that, into those types of jobs because they want to make a difference.
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Well, I've come to the conclusion that only two types of people get into that line of work.
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People that really want to make a difference and change people's lives and be positive impact on lives and people that were picked on in school.
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How have you come through this process without the bitterness that I think you would be entirely justified in feeling?
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Not just about the system itself, but even about individual people.
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I've never heard you speak about people with anything but kindness, even people that have metaphorically slapped you many times over.
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You have people that are putting the handcuffs on you and you're saying they're trying to feed their families.
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They believe when they got into this they were doing the right thing.
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Is that just who you are or has that been a struggle?
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I've had a lot of people within the last few weeks, and I guess maybe because of my book, say, how do you stay so positive?
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I can be miserable and depressed, or I can just get up every morning, put one foot in front of the other and keep on keeping on.
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And, you know, our message throughout the whole convoy was we don't win this with hatred and anger and division.
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I mean, if I can't forgive people for the wrongs that they've committed against me, you know, how do you expect to build bridges across an entire nation?
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There's so much that when you and I first were trying to sit down that I wanted to hear from you about the whole process of the convoy and how you got involved and what's happened since.
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And we're going to try to do as much of it as we can, but I know we could probably sit down over many, many days and still leave stuff that, oh, yeah, we should have talked about this or should have talked about that.
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But let's go back to the beginning and your own involvement in this, because you were never a particularly political person.
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And I think that, you know, everyone has heard you talk about the United We Roll and the Yellow Vest, that sort of 2019 approach that we saw really make a bit of a splash, but not ultimately go anywhere.
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But explain for people that haven't read your book yet and for people that haven't heard your story, when did Tamara Leach, the political activist, come into picture?
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I would say that started with about 2018-19, where I got really involved and active in local groups because of the policies of the Liberal government.
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And most of it at that time was all attacks against the oil and gas industry, which, you know, is a big part of the Alberta economy.
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And again, I mean, really, a lot like COVID, a lot of the things that they were legislating didn't make any sense.
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And then after the 2019 election, when Trudeau got elected again, I just thought, I can't, I can't, I got to do something.
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And I joined Peter Downing from Edmonton, had started a Wexit movement based off the UK Brexit movement.
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And just over the course of time, that morphed into the Maverick Party.
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And we built a federal independence party from there.
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And I sat on that board until we got to Ottawa, actually.
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And just trying to, just sick of the deal that the West has been getting.
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And, of course, my perspective on separation has changed considerably because of my convoy experience.
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But I think now we just need to separate from Ottawa.
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Yeah, but not even secession as far as just declaring kind of independence as individuals, I think.
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But this is, I think, one of the most fascinating and, I mean, in some cases complicated,
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And that you had people that were driven to Ottawa, literally, but I meant figuratively,
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And, I mean, I remember you and I spoke previously.
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And you had said something along the lines of telling, I think it was Chris Barber,
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to take his upside-down Canadian flag and turn it the right side up.
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I mean, this is not a symbol of distress that we want to show.
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Because, obviously, you're going there because something is wrong in your country.
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But people still seem to be generally united by, I don't know if it was a faith in Canada,
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a hope in Canada, or maybe it was a nostalgia for a Canada that they wanted to bring back.
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I think people were justifiably angry and they felt hopeless and, like, nobody was doing anything to help them.
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You know, and at that time, the rest of the world was starting to open up and we're being vilified and told we can't travel in our own country.
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And right about the time that we started the convoy, they were discussing stopping interprovincial travel.
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Which, I mean, I've got family all over the prairies and that wasn't going to work for me.
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So I think the driver was people were just fed up and sick and tired and felt like a lot of the things that we were being told was nonsense
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and just saw this as a, pardon the pun, vehicle, you know, for them to channel that energy into.
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And they just, the grassroots of it all is what made it so beautiful.
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Because these people didn't phone each other up in their communities and organize groups going out to the highway and the overpasses.
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They just got out there and then saw all these other people, you know, and then they realized that they weren't alone.
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And then they, yes, really started throwing their support behind us.
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Yeah, and I think just the united we role, to go back to that, I think it was a more meaningful moment for people.
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Because, again, conservatives don't often protest.
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They're too busy working and raising their families.
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So they did it, but no one really said it had lasting effects.
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I mean, the bills that were being protested still went ahead.
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And that was a literal convoy that went to Ottawa and then turned around and came home.
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So having gone through that, what made you think this convoy was different before you saw people lining the overpasses,
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before you saw all of the people showing up, when this was still that nugget of an idea that was being planned by Bridget Belton and Chris Barber,
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and then a few days later you, I mean, what made you think this was actually going to be more real?
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What made you think this was going to be more real than that?
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Well, I think the difference was United Re-Roll was primarily surrounding oil and gas.
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So only one industry, whereas the freedom convoy was for our entire country.
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And, you know, kudos to them, because I know that they saw a lot of crowds and there was a lot of unity that came as a result of that, too.
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So you come into this, and there was this whole sort of organic nature that, you know, I talked about in my book,
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and you talk about in your book, of people that just, you know, they know someone, they know someone,
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they all end up on these calls, and you've got other people saying, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this.
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What was your role coming into it, in your words?
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Because I remember there was a line in your book, and I don't remember the exact quote, but you basically say,
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I never intended or thought I'd be a leader of anything.
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I mean, that's initially why I reached out to Chris and Bridget, was just to say,
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you guys are going to need help, and you're going to need, you know.
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Especially because they were actually trucking, too.
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So, which is what I was like, these are my skills.
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And, you know, as you saw, the donations started to pour in, and our social media went crazy.
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So I recognized immediately that we needed help, and a lot of it.
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And then we started forming the committees and stuff, right?
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Yeah, and I remember at one point previously, you said your plan was, you know, raise $10,000 or $20,000,
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And you thought Chris Barber was crazy for wanting a six-figure sum to be the target for the GoFundMe.
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And then, of course, you were both crazy, because it ended up being $10 million.
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Try to explain as best as you can how you felt seeing that number rise.
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Because I almost would imagine that it wasn't quite real, because it's not cash.
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It's like you're looking at this, and it's like, but how did you feel just seeing that thing rise
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Oh, it was exhilarating and terrifying at the same time.
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And I would, you know, Cindy would get a hold of me and say, you've got to bump it up another
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But on the other hand, like I would literally get sick to my stomach, because I knew there
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I mean, you don't talk about millions of dollars without people coming to try and take it away.
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Well, and you, just for people to understand, you set this up to a personal bank account
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And there was a great little moment in the book where you say you donated, or not donated,
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So no one could say that you even benefited, you know, by 13 cents.
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I even, after Chris and I had opened another account in Ottawa for the donations, I had the,
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I called the bank and asked them to remove the access right off my access cards.
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Because I, like, I didn't even want to accidentally buy myself a coffee, you know what I mean?
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And, and I think that's one of the reasons that I became one of the faces of it was because
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it got, it became really important to me that Canadians who were trusting, essentially,
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it was my name on the, on the GoFundMe, trusting me with all that money.
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And I just wanted people to get a sense of who I was.
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I wanted them to know that it was going to be a very open and transparent process and that
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their donations would go to exactly where it was intended to go.
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So that's why I started doing the lives and then the support, you know, just to say thank
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you and, and just as the days wore on, just to tell Canadians just how super proud I was.
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And it was, the convoy for me was one of the most beautiful experiences in humanity that
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But got into a truck together and drove across the country, which for most people would be
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like a, you know, some people find a blind date to be a disaster, whereas you were committing
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But, you know, you were basically instant friends, it sounded like.
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And then I, of course, found out that he's from the same part of Saskatchewan that I'm
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And I knew within talking to them for 15 minutes that we were going to be BFFs.
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I know a lot of it was chronicled by your lives, but, but the stuff that we didn't see,
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I think I joke in my book that, you know, if Chris and I some days got to talk to each
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other for five full minutes, that was kind of a miracle.
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And, and, but we did, we discussed what could happen when we got there because we didn't
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You know, we discussed, you know, what are we going, what are we going to do when we get
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Now what, you know, so, uh, you know, that all had to be put together and, and, um, yeah,
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You know, I, I, I trust Chris Barber with my life.
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Uh, Manitoba is one of my favorite things to talk about for obvious reasons.
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And, and that was, I don't know if it is obvious to find good things to talk about
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It was, it was so surreal because we, we, as we came into Headingley even, there was
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massive crowds all along the road, like coming right up to the side of the trucks even,
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And this just, this crowd continued all the way through Headingley and all the way around
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But the epiphany as we're driving and I look out the window and I see these native dancers
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And there's, I think there was like four Sikh gentlemen standing beside them and they
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were, you know, hooting and hollering and nuns in full habits and hutterates and their
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And I just thought that was the moment when I realized that it didn't matter who you were,
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what color your skin was, what God you worshiped, what your income bracket was or where you lived.
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Everyone was just a Canadian and they were celebrating it.
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And Justin, diversity is our strength, Trudeau.
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Doesn't care about these diverse groups, not the Sikhs that supported the convoy, the
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indigenous that supported the convoy, the nuns.
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It's only a certain type of diversity that we exalt in that way of thinking.
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And something interesting that Nolene Villabren, one of the clan mothers, I think you've met
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her, said in her witness statement at the inquiry was, which is profound.
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She said that the freedom convoy was the closest thing she's seen to an actual reconciliation
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in her lifetime, which is a pretty profound statement from a clan mother and an elder.
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I was going to ask you actually about the indigenous dimension to this, because that was the one
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story above all else that the mainstream media, I think, had to be willfully ignoring because
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it went against everything that they say in every other context about, you know, reconciliation,
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about the need to be compassionate and tolerant of indigenous people.
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We know that in Canada, indigenous people had lower vaccination rates against COVID than
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non-indigenous people, which means that they were, by definition, disproportionately affected
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by vaccine mandates, because there were more of them that had chosen not to get that.
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And normally, you'd think in a tolerant, compassionate society, we'd say, OK, maybe we'd recognize the
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All of this stuff that we're told to talk about with residential schools and so on.
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But if you walked around the convoy in Ottawa, there were indigenous people everywhere.
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And that's rare in political movements, that you see that group aligned with something
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that is more broadly conservative or broadly attracts conservatives.
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So did you know that going into it, that that was going to be this demographic that would
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I didn't know that it was going to be on that scale.
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I mean, I remember the video that I did after I first talked to Nolene.
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And that was another eye-opening moment for me that we had a real chance here to work together.
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You hear the government talking about it, but you rarely see it.
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And I knew that, you know, when she came on board and wanted to help, and Sandra McKenzie
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also, that, you know, we had a real opportunity here to start mending fences and working together.
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And as a whole, when we got there, there was a large number of indigenous people.
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But the media only focused on the ones that were upset that we were there.
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Even my own indigenous heritage, like I talk about in my book, it's laughable that they
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Because if I would have been there for any other cause, they'd be parading me around the
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country right now, giving me the order of Canada.
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But because it wasn't for something that fit the liberal government's ideology, they questioned
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Yeah, I mean, you had the Aboriginal People's Television Network running a whole story on
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essentially questioning your indigenous heritage.
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So, I mean, you don't need to set the record straight, but explain to me about how that
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Because that was something that I didn't quite get a full picture of until I read it in your
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book, of just the connection you've had to that part of your identity.
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Well, I was adopted into a Caucasian family when I was quite, was two or three months old.
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And so, but I always felt a very strong connection.
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And my parents were wonderful about, you know, always letting me know that I was adopted and
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And so I, unfortunately, though, didn't have access to, there's not a lot of elders in
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Um, so I had, had to go out and find it on my own and, and researched it.
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And, um, it's just a, it's just something that's always resonated with me and been important
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And I think it's a beautiful part of, of Canadian history.
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And, um, yeah, it's, uh, I don't know how else to describe it.
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And it was fascinating to see when you made a joke in your text messages with Chris Barber
00:26:59.300
about, you know, I'll play the indigenous card or something like that.
00:27:03.280
The media latched into this on, you know, like as evidence of what I don't know when
00:27:07.380
you're really just saying, you know, if they want to play the identity politics game, well,
00:27:10.800
here I am a Métis woman, I'm going to come out and play that game too.
00:27:13.880
And I took that and I sort of chuckled at it, but people got very angry about that.
00:27:20.020
So they don't think you have a right to be indigenous because you aren't their type of indigenous.
00:27:25.540
Well, I mean, but that's the funny thing in today's world, right?
00:27:29.500
You can just identify as something now, which is funny because I identify as innocent, but
00:27:35.800
You know, it's become a country that's creating policies and legislation on hurt feelings,
00:27:47.380
When your government starts trying to tell you what is appropriate for you to believe
00:27:53.040
and not to believe, what's appropriate for you to think and not to think, you're getting
00:28:00.380
Let's return to the journey to Ottawa, because so much was going to the fundraising campaign,
00:28:07.160
how to get to Ottawa, the logistics of that, of hotels, motels along the way.
00:28:18.720
Because I know this was basically the whole point of the Public Order Emergency Commission
00:28:22.540
in large parts of it, was did they always intend to stick around indefinitely?
00:28:32.280
Obviously, you know, if they would have showed any type of good faith towards, especially,
00:28:37.680
you know, towards the end and just came and talked to us, like, I think by that point,
00:28:43.480
Like, they were tired and they wanted to go home.
00:28:45.040
So I think if we would have had a show of good faith, maybe that would have stopped it.
00:28:49.040
But, you know, like I was saying earlier, Chris and I discussed that, like, what are we
00:28:56.000
And so we needed an exit strategy, which thankfully, once the lawyers got in, we started
00:29:10.700
We were just trying to get to Ottawa in one piece.
00:29:15.500
Which was, yeah, which does sound incredibly crazy.
00:29:18.120
But, I mean, that was like 16, 18-hour days for me.
00:29:21.680
You know, I'd get up at 5 or 6 in the morning and go to bed at 2 or 3 at night.
00:29:24.940
And then I'd lay in bed for an hour thinking, oh, I forgot to do this or I got to do that.
00:29:31.060
We were looking for hotels for supporters that were traveling with us to stay in.
00:29:36.120
Because most of the truckers obviously had their own vehicles, their bunks.
00:29:42.440
And then we had all the people that wanted to bring food and coffee and sandwiches and
00:29:49.760
So it was a lot to put together and to do it safely, you know.
00:30:01.280
But, you know, the fact that when we got into Arnfriar, we were 100 kilometers long.
00:30:10.620
I don't even know if I could just drive alone from BC to Ottawa without getting into an accident.
00:30:19.220
Because the one thing that I remember trying to report on this that was next to impossible
00:30:26.260
And I gave up at a certain point because no one had them.
00:30:29.100
And it's like, and there were all of these myths circulating.
00:30:31.300
Like people say, well, you know, the front is in Ontario and the back is in Alberta or
00:30:36.320
People say, oh, 15,000 trucks, this many trucks.
00:30:38.640
And I think a lot of it was just people being very enthusiastic or they hear something.
00:30:45.200
Which was this thing was just kind of rapidly taking on its own mythology, if you will.
00:30:57.280
So the fact that no one could come up with a number was, I think, a sign of how large this
00:31:01.500
I mean, everyone saw early on those drone footage that you'd see of the highways out
00:31:21.700
Yeah, I heard at one point when we were crossing into Ontario, the end was just coming through
00:31:29.240
I was like, you guys, it's not like in some of our own.
00:31:34.560
We're maybe like an hour long, but we're not certainly.
00:31:37.180
But again, to your point on that, there was also a smaller group that might have been passing
00:31:43.060
And, you know, it's not necessarily an unbroken chain.
00:31:45.820
But yeah, like, I mean, one of my jobs, of course, with the finance committee that we
00:31:50.160
set up, we had all these beautiful processes in place and stuff and how we were going to
00:31:59.680
Everyone register with your road captain to get real.
00:32:02.380
I'm going to walk around and hand out registration forms and I'm going to stand at the gas pumps
00:32:07.600
when they, you know, and it became apparent right away that that was not even in the realm
00:32:12.260
But one of my jobs was to send the committees road counts every day or truck counts.
00:32:17.160
And it was impossible because people would come and, you know, drive for a couple hours
00:32:22.400
or drive across the province or drive for two days or whatever.
00:32:28.200
Well, and while all of this was happening, there was this parallel organization taking place
00:32:33.100
in Ottawa, which I guess we could call the welcome committee for lack of a better term.
00:32:37.440
And they were setting up this operations center at the Swiss Hotel.
00:32:46.540
We started meeting with that group before we left.
00:32:49.260
So, so yeah, they were starting to get the infrastructure.
00:32:51.860
I can't remember the first time I talked to Chris Guerra and Janet, but.
00:32:55.420
Chris Guerra is the guy who founded Adopt-a-Trucker.
00:33:05.680
And I think Adopt-a-Trucker happened just before we got there or after.
00:33:10.240
In the meantime, or in the beginning, though, he had a group together that was, you know,
00:33:13.460
making sure there was food and, well, port-a-potties, we were hoping.
00:33:16.880
That was an adventure in itself, trying to get those.
00:33:20.240
But, you know, just getting the infrastructure set up and places to stay and places for the
00:33:23.760
truckers and supporters to shower and stay warm and that kind of thing.
00:33:27.580
So, and so we were in heavy conversations with them, too, so that we knew, you know, where
00:33:36.720
So I accidentally went to the Swiss Hotel because it was on that first weekend, I think
00:33:41.220
it was the Sunday, and Benjamin Dichter had organized this little informal press conference
00:33:49.380
And it was, there was a room number, and I think it was, the room number started with
00:33:53.240
So I, and I wasn't sure if the first floor was the basement or the level above it or
00:33:57.580
And I walked in and walked downstairs and I walk into this room and I'm like, what the
00:34:02.040
I see, you know, people on computers, people milling about, there's food, there's this.
00:34:05.900
And I'm like, I'm here for the press conference.
00:34:07.140
They're like, oh yeah, you want to go upstairs and down the hall.
00:34:09.580
And that was for me, even though I'd been kind of following this for a couple of weeks
00:34:13.460
by now, that was the eye-opening moment for me.
00:34:15.800
There's another story here that no one is talking about and no one knows about, which
00:34:20.420
is just the, frankly, the sophistication of this really grassroots movement.
00:34:26.120
And, and I guess I'll ask you about that because do you think it got too complicated?
00:34:31.260
Because even in your book, you're writing about, oh, we had security, we had intelligence,
00:34:35.900
we had logistics, we had law enforcement, we had medical, we had to, was all of that
00:34:40.480
necessary for a bunch of trucks on Wellington Street?
00:34:47.680
I mean, and even in the early, early days, you know, as the donations started coming in
00:34:51.640
and the emails and the Facebook messages, I knew instinctively right away that we needed
00:34:58.980
And, you know, when we saw, you know, even the numbers in Ottawa, you know, we had to
00:35:05.200
So, you know, having somebody like Thomas was just fantastic because he was a paramedic.
00:35:10.220
So he knew the routes, he knew, you know, that we needed to keep these lanes open.
00:35:14.220
He, and specifically the ones that they use the most, same with Danny Bulford.
00:35:18.840
I mean, we got some really amazing, amazing people to help with this.
00:35:28.700
It sounds like it was complicated, but I think when we were facing the attacks from the government,
00:35:33.780
you know, the attacks from the police, the Ottawa city police and the city, you know,
00:35:38.700
We needed every bit of it and more probably, you know.
00:35:42.780
You had become by this point, the face of this movement.
00:35:46.980
I mean, in large part because of the Facebook lives and large part because yours was the
00:35:52.620
Did you ever feel a sense of, I don't know if guilt is the right word, but a discomfort
00:35:57.320
that you were not a trucker, but had become the focal point of this trucker led protest?
00:36:08.900
My skill set isn't driving a truck, but I used the skills that I had to try and make
00:36:14.140
And so it started, it started with the truckers, but I don't feel like that was a trucker movement.
00:36:19.060
They were the catalyst in a Canadian movement, if that makes sense.
00:36:24.700
You know, there was a lot of people there that weren't truckers.
00:36:27.180
So, I mean, they're definitely heroes, of course, for, you know, driving there.
00:36:34.200
It was like seeing the cavalry, you know, going off to war basically and holding their ground
00:36:43.160
So, I'm proud that I could use my skill set to help them, you know.
00:36:48.020
But there was some resentment that started to go your way.
00:36:51.240
I mean, notably, and you talk about this in the book, is Bridget Belton, who undeniably,
00:36:55.720
and you give her full credit for this, was one of the sparks behind this.
00:36:59.060
It was her persistence that got her linked up with Chris Barber and they started promoting
00:37:02.900
this thing, but she then started to grow very frustrated with you getting the glory
00:37:12.680
I started sensing that right the first day that we got to the hill, honestly.
00:37:17.480
And so I made, you know, if people would come up to me, Chris and Bridget and I were up
00:37:23.960
there and I would always go over and grab her and introduce her and, you know, explain
00:37:27.880
to everybody who she was because I didn't want to take that away from her.
00:37:31.840
And, you know, we had a few run-ins in Ottawa where I felt like I had to tell her, like,
00:37:40.720
I just want a better country for my grandkids to grow up in.
00:37:44.440
So that was tough, you know, and we'd have discussions and I always felt like when we
00:37:48.720
finished those discussions that everything was fine and five minutes later it would be
00:38:00.460
I pray that she finds some peace of mind and, you know, whatever it is she's looking
00:38:12.760
This was about Canada, you know, and every person that lined an overpass or went out along
00:38:21.340
the highway or donated money is also a hero because what would they have been without
00:38:25.760
them? You know, we could have drove across Canada, but if it wasn't for the support from
00:38:32.020
the people, then it would have been just for nothing.
00:38:34.920
I know Benjamin Dichter was very, very diligent about wanting to control the message and,
00:38:41.660
you know, prevent all these little pop-up press conferences that the people were having
00:38:45.340
and try to speak with relatively one voice and it was usually his or yours.
00:38:50.800
And do you feel like that ended up hurting the movement in a way because it was so grassroots
00:38:57.680
and to try to have one voice, to try to have press conferences, did that make it look a
00:39:07.220
You know, in hindsight, looking back on that, like I would remember like he'd message me
00:39:10.500
and someone's always having a press conference and so, oh my God, you know, and I wish at
00:39:16.100
the time we would just sort of said, fine, like anybody can have a press conference if
00:39:20.640
But what we were concerned about was just making sure that our message stayed the same and
00:39:25.480
that we were, you know, peace, love, unity, freedom.
00:39:28.720
And, you know, you get some people behind a camera and that's not always what comes out
00:39:36.420
And I'd known Benjamin before through Tom Quiggan.
00:39:41.580
So, and I thought he was very great on social media and I thought he was very articulate.
00:39:47.300
He had a little bit of a background in politics and, and was good in media.
00:39:52.540
So I tapped him on the shoulder to help with being a spokesperson.
00:39:57.180
I know that there were some people that were fairly skeptical of him.
00:40:01.240
Now I've known Benjamin for many years and had had only positive encounters with him until
00:40:06.880
And there were other people that were a bit more suspect.
00:40:10.000
And I heard you defend him to those people as recently as at the George Jonas Freedom Dinner
00:40:15.940
where people were asking, you said, you know, you couldn't talk to him.
00:40:18.360
You weren't allowed to, but you said you, you trusted him with your life.
00:40:21.160
But he is since then kind of led this faction against what I would call the Tamara faction
00:40:28.700
in a way, people that are, are more loyal to you.
00:40:31.580
And, and, you know, they've been, you know, they've, they've gone their own way on the
00:40:35.280
They've been very critical of the convoy leadership, especially of some of the, the justice center
00:40:44.640
Because oftentimes you would expect these breakdowns to happen when the convoy is in Ottawa and
00:40:48.720
people have all these different beliefs on, on how to run things.
00:40:51.500
But it seemed like, I mean, just you and Benjamin, for starters, were very tight until months
00:41:01.060
And honestly, um, we were trying to get a call with him in the summer.
00:41:08.020
Um, I think it was before I was arrested or just after there was a really good working
00:41:15.220
Um, well, I mean, between him and, and some of the other people, of course, I can't talk
00:41:19.280
So, uh, and we were trying to set up a call with him and he was trying to set up a call
00:41:27.300
Um, so we could discuss the, the civil suit and, um, all of a sudden he ghosted us and
00:41:34.800
And then all of a sudden there's these weird things poking up on his videos and stuff.
00:41:39.700
And, and, um, when he came out and he was calling my friends, some very terrible names,
00:41:48.480
um, I just thought you're not the person that I thought you were because that's not how
00:41:58.480
Uh, I don't think, I don't think there's any room in this movement for that.
00:42:01.940
And, um, unfortunately I think in any movement there's egos that get involved and, and then
00:42:12.880
I mean, some of his theories are completely bizarre and, um, yeah.
00:42:19.100
Well, and other people that have kind of joined that little cause, I guess.
00:42:23.840
I mean, Chad E. Ross, who was the accountant and again, someone that you had a tremendous
00:42:27.980
amount of trust in, Chris Guerra, who we've spoken about, who did a tremendous amount of
00:42:31.680
work on the ground and has now become very critical of it.
00:42:35.220
And, and I don't know if people realize how this starts to undermine a lot of the unifying
00:42:44.620
And I'm not saying people should shut up if they have legitimate grievances, but I, I'm
00:42:47.960
not even quite aware of what the grievances are.
00:42:53.780
And just to go back to what we were talking about earlier, you, you've not really been
00:42:56.640
able to set the record straight when people start making all of these accusations until
00:43:02.620
And, and for the most part, Andrew, I don't, I don't care what people say.
00:43:06.100
I mean, I had thick skin before and I definitely have very thick skin now and people are just
00:43:11.020
going to make up a bunch of wild stories anyways.
00:43:13.880
I mean, you know, I've heard, I've heard crazy stories about me.
00:43:18.600
I was going to go to Ottawa and try and install the Maverick party.
00:43:21.840
Like, I mean, it doesn't, some of it doesn't even make sense.
00:43:24.100
And, but you know what, it, it, it's hurtful when it comes from, from people that you trusted
00:43:29.760
and, you know, I've said it before and, and I mean it, I mean, a lot of us went there as
00:43:34.400
strangers and we turned into a family when we were there.
00:43:38.180
So, you know, obviously they have their beefs and they feel that they were wronged.
00:43:42.960
And I, I certainly hope that it all gets sorted out at the end of the day and everyone can
00:43:52.520
The one thing that the Public Order Emergency Commission did incredibly well, I thought,
00:43:56.960
was reveal how effectively none of the money went to you or other convoy organizers.
00:44:03.460
They, they produced a report, which I thought was actually quite, quite, quite in depth and
00:44:08.480
detailed about the cryptocurrency donations, the GoFundMe, the Gibson Go, the e-transfers
00:44:16.500
And, and the money essentially went to the government or it was refunded to donors.
00:44:24.640
And what went to you, I'm talking about as the custodian for the organization, not, not
00:44:28.800
But that's been, I think, probably one of the most vicious lines of attack I've seen
00:44:34.120
against you is that, you know, you're sitting off in the Bahamas with $10 million while, you
00:44:40.500
And, and you've, I mean, you've lost more than you've gained in this movement.
00:44:44.260
Yes, it's, it's, I've heard that I've got a Swiss bank account.
00:44:50.900
Uh, I've left for Mexico, you know, it, and to me, that's actually disappointing because
00:45:05.680
And if people really put in the effort, they could find that information out in about a
00:45:12.160
I, I made the mistake in the early days of the convoy that a lot of other mainstream media
00:45:17.640
reporters did, which was thinking the money meant more than it actually did as far as
00:45:23.840
And, and that was, I think the, the one thing that I found, because I remember even when
00:45:26.840
I was sitting down with, um, that informal press conference on the first weekend, I had,
00:45:30.700
you know, peppering you and, uh, Benjamin and Chris with, with questions about, you know,
00:45:34.280
how's this money going to be spent on that money.
00:45:36.060
But at the time, that was the way you could measure momentum.
00:45:41.600
We didn't know how many people, but we knew there was $10 million.
00:45:45.080
But, but in the end, the money really was meaningless.
00:45:50.220
If someone needed something, they just, you know, said it and it sort of just appeared.
00:45:53.800
Like I remember, uh, hearing, uh, you know, Dave live from the shed, you know, mentioned
00:45:57.580
needing a Starlink and some guys like be right back.
00:45:59.560
And then, you know, that afternoon there's a Starlink or something.
00:46:03.460
So the money, I mean, yes, people needed to buy their fuel and buy vehicle parts and,
00:46:07.700
and, you know, paper hotel rooms, but, but it was a reflection of the convoy support,
00:46:15.460
And I said this to Keith, you know, pretty early on.
00:46:31.500
The statement behind the money was that we had overwhelming support, which terrified Justin
00:46:43.160
Um, but it was, it was the sentiment behind it.
00:46:47.640
People, they wish they could make that much money in donations when, you know.
00:46:54.540
And I think one of the things that I would point out as well is that anytime the government
00:46:58.600
or the police tried to crack down on something, more of it turned up.
00:47:02.780
So they tried to crack down on fuel and then everyone shows up with jerry cans.
00:47:06.080
They, uh, you know, try to crack down on money and then people just start showing up with
00:47:10.020
And I remember when I had said on my show once that I probably shouldn't tell this story,
00:47:13.380
but I had said on my show once that I was going back up to Ottawa to cover it.
00:47:16.740
And I had someone, you know, through this sort of broken telephone, get my number and
00:47:21.640
say, you know, can I give you $10,000 in cash to bring up there?
00:47:25.060
And I, I said, I just said, I can't be a part of that.
00:47:29.440
But, but that was the type of thing that people were trying to do.
00:47:33.740
And, and, you know, I, I've heard heartfelt stories from, from folks who got a $5 bill
00:47:40.360
shoved into their hand from someone where that $5 was needed and was, was not nothing.
00:47:46.480
And people in tears because, because they believe that the Freedom Convoy was their last
00:47:53.400
And I'm wondering if that gave you hope or if that kind of weighed on you in a way and
00:47:59.080
that almost made it like, just, oh my goodness, we have to, we have to win.
00:48:12.880
The most profound interactions are the, some of the hardest ones I, and I had were with
00:48:19.220
immigrants from Poland or Iran, you know, it was like the desperation that was in their
00:48:26.320
eyes because they've lived through this before.
00:48:29.320
They've seen all the signs, you know, and, and it was heartbreaking.
00:48:33.060
There were so many people that just thought this was it.
00:48:35.280
Like, this is, this is their last, you know, and like you said, people donated money or that
00:48:41.600
But I think if they couldn't go to Ottawa or they couldn't get to a highway, everyone
00:48:46.000
just wanted to feel like they were a part of it.
00:48:48.160
So even if they didn't have 10 bucks, they donated 10 bucks because just to feel like
00:48:53.420
they were participating, you know, it was, it was so beautiful.
00:48:58.600
And the donations that people brought, I mean, you saw the streets, there was like every few
00:49:04.060
feet tables set up with, you know, food or mittens or toques or everything there.
00:49:10.560
There was everything there from lip chap to dog food, you know?
00:49:14.120
Yeah, and you also were seeing, you know, people in the Ottawa neighborhoods around this
00:49:21.540
a lot more supportive than the CBC version of what an Ottawa resident thinks.
00:49:27.660
I mean, everyone's talked about it, the horns, but after the injunction, the horn issue largely
00:49:32.180
Obviously it was by design disruptive as a protest is supposed to be, but you also had Ottawa residents
00:49:37.460
that were opening up their homes saying, come use my shower, come use my, my bathroom.
00:49:48.620
There was hardly, I only saw two people in Ottawa the whole time I was there that were
00:49:54.660
I remember we were standing outside of the Sheridan and this guy was walking across the
00:49:58.700
street and he saw me and he just kept looking at me like he recognized me.
00:50:01.780
And then he starts walking, crossing the street, but away from me at an angle, which I thought
00:50:06.960
And he yelled something and I said, oh, thank you.
00:50:14.980
And then another lady, when we slipped outside of the Swiss, because that door opens right
0.98
00:50:18.820
onto the sidewalk, I bumped into her and I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry.
00:50:24.120
But everyone else from Ottawa that I dealt with was happy that we were there.
00:50:28.880
They said it was the most fun they've had there in years.
00:50:31.180
Like it's supposed to be the most boring city ever.
00:50:39.080
Federal government employees were hiding, covering their faces and coming down and bringing
00:50:51.780
I actually talked to you at the POEC, a lady on the street who worked in the public safety
0.95
00:50:57.640
And I had only been there like a day or two and I ran into her and she was wishing me the
00:51:07.420
There was one chapter of the book that I thought, or section of the book that I thought was quite
00:51:13.160
interesting where you talk about a statement that you issued about the blockades in Cootes
00:51:19.200
And the line was effectively, you know, we don't claim credit for it, but, you know, we wish
00:51:25.920
And I know that this was a very pivotal moment, I think, in how people started to talk about
00:51:32.100
the convoy, even among people who had been sympathetic.
00:51:34.880
They say, you know, yeah, I support the truckers in Ottawa, but I don't support the border blockades.
00:51:39.240
You know, the biggest one was Cootes, but you also had Windsor and Emerson and Surrey for
00:51:44.260
And I think everyone has established now that this was not being centrally managed or planned
00:51:48.320
in any way by you or by your team in Ottawa, but it's undeniably part of the same movement.
00:52:07.060
Well, I mean, and I don't even know if that's true.
00:52:10.300
Like, my parents went through the Cootes border and they said it was the RCMP that had blocked
00:52:15.180
Let me just ask you what you mean by illegal activity, though, because, you know, you've
00:52:19.520
been charged with illegal activity and I know you claim you're innocent.
00:52:22.700
And even if you talk about traffic violations blocking up a city street, that still is illegal
00:52:33.680
At what point was it a higher level of protest than you thought was acceptable?
00:52:41.480
Well, I mean, the border blockades were definitely problematic.
00:52:46.040
And again, I mean, I totally get why they were angry.
00:52:49.760
Our mandate was to, well, yes, stay legal, you know, and there was definitely parking violations
00:53:05.700
You know, it was so organic and it was so grassroots and we had to be very careful to be supportive
00:53:12.400
of their protest, but maybe not supportive of the illegal activity.
00:53:17.720
But, you know, in issuing that statement, you know, we didn't, we also weren't going to
00:53:22.480
Like we, you know, we weren't going to throw them under the bus either.
00:53:25.160
So it was a, that was a really interesting situation to try to navigate.
00:53:30.740
Well, and it was difficult for, I know, the conservatives at the time, because even they
00:53:36.080
who had been after Aaron O'Toole was ousted and Candace Bergen came in, they had been relatively
00:53:42.820
And, but that was where they drew the line as well.
00:53:44.940
They said, you know, we support them, but not the blockades.
00:53:47.980
And several months ago, I interviewed Pierre Polyev and asked him and he had said something
00:53:52.460
very similar to, well, I'd prefer they didn't come with vehicles, was kind of one of the
00:53:58.800
If someone had come along, be it the police or the government or someone else and said,
00:54:03.220
okay, ditch the trucks and you can stay as long as you want, would that have been acceptable?
00:54:09.580
That's basically the deal that we had worked at with the city other than Wellington.
00:54:17.180
So the trucks were the symbol, the trucks were how it started, but you just thought you needed
00:54:23.980
You know, that's what you're supposed to do when your government's not listening to you.
00:54:27.300
And I'm just so incredibly proud of everyone for, for staying like dignified and peaceful
00:54:33.860
and, you know, because let's face it, there was a lot of people that were angry.
00:54:41.340
You know, that the day that we went to try and move trucks right after we had the deal with
00:54:48.500
And then that large crowd came in and I just, I had that split second moment where I was
00:54:53.580
like, I could see how this could turn ugly in a split second.
00:54:58.020
And, and they didn't like to, they were just chanting freedom and singing O Canada, but
00:55:02.520
you know, they were agitated and you could really feel the, the energy in the air.
00:55:07.200
So obviously, you know, Keith and I became quite concerned for the safety of the officers and
00:55:13.640
And obviously we ended up shutting that operation down, but that was the whole, the whole point.
00:55:18.160
You know, going into Ottawa, we had planned to have the trucks outside of the city other
00:55:23.560
But I mean, they let us right in, right, right up there.
00:55:27.300
On that note, did you sense the tone change and the mood change from day one to closer to
00:55:36.200
Um, I think towards the end, people were getting pretty tired.
00:55:41.260
I mean, for the most part, they were still all positive and happy.
00:55:45.920
There were still dance parties, even after the emergency act, there were dance parties.
00:55:49.620
But people were getting concerned and, you know, they were provoking us at every turn.
00:55:53.840
So, you know, with the first one being with the, the raid on Coventry, and then they were
00:55:58.680
going to start coming after the fuel, which was, you know, like dairy cans and stuff.
00:56:03.420
And then it was, they were going to come after your pets, and then they were threatening to
00:56:12.220
But when I got home from jail last winter, and I sat down on my couch and I watched the
00:56:19.560
footage, I bawled for two days like a baby, watching the, you know, the police action against
00:56:27.520
peaceful protesters and, and a lot of people that I knew and cared about in those videos.
00:56:32.500
And, um, I just thought it was so telling how I didn't even see one single Canadian lift
00:56:44.820
I, I didn't hear anyone swearing at the police.
00:56:47.660
You know, they still, even in the face of that, stayed peaceful and, and, um, it's almost
00:56:57.700
You had on one hand, a group of convoy protesters that were saying, we're not leaving.
00:57:04.820
And then on the other hand, you have a government that has shown no interest in hearing them
00:57:13.260
Because I think it's a fair question that's asked by some critics when obviously this was
00:57:17.220
going to end with people either tiring up and going home or police coming in and removing
00:57:26.800
I, I left Medicine Hat not knowing when I was going to be back.
00:57:30.620
I mean, obviously in the back of my head, I thought I had ideas, you know, like in the
00:57:36.360
back of my head, I thought, wow, if we can raise $20,000, that's, that's amazing.
00:57:40.760
In the back of my head, I thought, well, you know, we'll probably be there for a week,
00:57:49.240
I can't believe they think that we were going to drive five days across the country, stay
00:57:56.040
So I don't know, you know, that's a hard question for me to answer because, and of course, driving
00:58:02.700
across Canada and hearing all these stories, I mean, that really stiffened our resolve,
00:58:09.140
And, and, and I believed, I guess, naively that somebody would come and talk to us.
00:58:16.300
And so when we, when we struck that deal with the city of Ottawa, um, I was so happy because
00:58:23.220
I thought step one, here's a step, this is positive.
00:58:28.280
I mean, the first time that, I mean, yes, it's the mayor of Ottawa, not a hugely important
00:58:31.440
person, but it would have been recognition by an official that you were a group.
00:58:36.760
And we were trying so hard, like I said, we were peaceful and I was always advocating for
00:58:40.580
peace and love and unity and respecting the police and following the law.
00:58:44.840
So, you know, I don't, I don't know what they were so scared of.
00:58:48.820
You know, I, I've heard you and others say, you know, if they had just come out and spoken
00:58:52.960
to us, if, you know, Justin Trudeau or someone had just come out, but I, I'm none of us ever
00:58:58.860
Well, I think that's a fair, that's a fair, fair point.
00:59:01.600
But, but let's say that some federal government official had come out.
00:59:05.320
I don't think it would have made a difference, even if they had sat down and said, I'll hear
00:59:10.280
So being heard wasn't just what you were after, was it?
00:59:17.880
Because you can be very polite to someone and hear them out and nod along and then go
00:59:22.340
And I forget who it was at the commission that had said, you know, they didn't want to
00:59:35.680
I mean, I think there's, I don't think there's anything wrong with Canadians wanting to be
00:59:41.560
No, I, if I, if I were to give you the answer there, I, what I would have loved for them
00:59:44.900
to have said is we wanted them to realize they were wrong.
00:59:49.380
Or, you know, we, even if they would have said, okay, you've proved your point.
00:59:53.060
So, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll get a handful of, vet us.
00:59:58.120
I mean, we already knew everything about us, vet us and put together a little committee
01:00:02.360
and we can continue these talks later, later or, or anything, but they didn't do anything,
01:00:09.360
And yes, they, they just, you know, called us terrible names and, and, um, but, but that's
01:00:15.060
the really, one of the great things about this whole thing was that Canadians owned it.
01:00:20.160
I mean, as he started calling us names and, and then the, you know, the unacceptable fringe
01:00:27.720
I mean, he kept throwing this stuff at us and nothing was sticking and we were just
01:00:31.940
taking that back and throwing it right back in his face.
0.70
01:00:35.140
You know, it was, uh, it was, um, it was pretty funny.
01:00:39.340
It has also birthed a movement in Canada that has outlasted the Freedom Convoy.
01:00:44.560
I mean, that summer of 2022, there were freedom rallies everywhere.
01:00:48.780
There were these little, you know, mini convoys.
01:00:51.380
Canada Day was being canceled by the media, but convoy folks were saying we're, we're having
01:00:55.100
Canada Day, uh, even now there are all these little groups and associations and organizations
01:00:59.820
and Facebook pages that have all sort of popped up that were motivated by, or, or were the
01:01:05.120
products of people that were united by this thing.
01:01:08.060
And, and when you look around, one thing that strikes me is that there are some people
01:01:11.880
that don't want to move on from the COVID era on both sides.
01:01:14.160
I think, you know, there are the, you know, the people that, you know, want us to mask
01:01:17.100
up for the, until the end of time, but there are also people, it seems like that want to
01:01:21.040
keep the convoy alive when the thing that they were protesting has largely gone.
01:01:26.800
And I'm curious what you think the, the legacy of this should be.
01:01:34.580
I think a lot of people in Canada knew that we were in trouble, uh, politically, um, economically.
01:01:41.800
Uh, and I think that what the convoy did was actually showed them how bad it really is or,
01:01:48.800
or, or, or gave them a bit of more insight into the bigger picture.
01:01:52.040
Um, cause I don't know if anyone knows how bad it is.
01:01:54.480
If they're just admitting that China is in, you know, influencing our politics, then how bad
0.91
01:02:00.780
Uh, that's my, that's my, uh, take on politics these days anyways, but I think the legacy of
01:02:08.880
the freedom convoy is the unity and it is the humanity and the fundamental beauty of what
01:02:19.720
You know, we couldn't have survived here if we didn't look after each other and help our
01:02:24.340
neighbors and we couldn't have, you know, and, and that's to me what, what the legacy should
01:02:29.980
be just the, the, the humanity that, that came as a result of it.
01:02:37.440
Looking back on it, what would you say was something you would do differently tactically
01:02:49.420
Um, I would have, I think if I could do one thing different, I would have had a exit plan
01:02:55.600
in place before we left some kind of an idea as to what we were going to do or to present
01:03:04.340
Well, basically, you know, now basically what exactly what we showed, I mean, we, we did
01:03:08.900
our, our live there with our list, um, you know, and the mandates, uh, federal mandates,
01:03:14.000
Let's have a investigation, like an actual real investigation, not just Justin Trudeau's
01:03:20.580
You know, investigating, um, so we had that whole list, which is all things that, that,
01:03:27.300
And, um, again, I think if we would have had something like that drafted before, because
01:03:32.920
the problem was once we got there and we were beginning to draft it, it was never the right
01:03:38.220
Like Aaron O'Toole gets kicked out of, or resigns or whatever.
01:03:43.800
And we, you know, we were going to try and release it that day.
01:03:47.560
So it just seemed like every time we planned to release this, um, something else came up
01:03:53.940
And, um, so I think if we could have gotten that out maybe sooner, we would have a either
01:04:00.180
known that they were willing to negotiate with us or not, you know, cause they would
01:04:06.760
Um, or if we were going to have to stay for a while.
01:04:10.320
The one thing that always annoyed me is, is, you know, whenever these little distractions
01:04:15.100
come up, like the memorandum of understanding or Pat King, people will say, well, well,
01:04:22.680
So, so all of these things that you were doing, uh, that, you know, other people would
01:04:27.760
say, yes, they should do, were, were not really being received or communicated the same
01:04:31.480
way the outrage was, you know, the, the Terry Fox statue, the arson that wasn't.
01:04:35.540
And so I think that there's a lot of truth to the idea that you were never going to be
01:04:43.700
able to get your message through the mainstream media, which is why, I mean, selfishly on
01:04:48.160
my part, I think one of the real victories of the convoy was the rise of independent
01:04:51.560
media and the awakening of a lot of media consumers and how the mainstream media had
01:04:57.560
And, and, you know, the number of people that I've had reach out to me in February
01:05:01.020
of 2022 that have said, I canceled my Globe and Mail subscription.
01:05:05.680
I mean, that, that was happening more times than I could count.
01:05:08.360
So there was something in people seeing, you know, for themselves on the ground or on their
01:05:13.700
friends' live streams, and then seeing the CBC Global CTV version of the convoy and being
01:05:24.380
Thank goodness for independent journalists and citizen journalists.
01:05:27.520
Like, you know, if this wouldn't have been the age of the cell phone, the whole
01:05:30.760
entire country would probably believe what they were saying.
01:05:33.240
You know, but, you know, thanks to, to, to people like you and Rupa, you know, you guys
01:05:37.840
were down, the Rupa was down there the first day, like she was, where's.
01:05:42.320
And talking to people, um, Keen Bexty was there, um, uh, Bright Light News, like all these
01:05:49.680
Well, people, people I had never heard of that were there, that, that I've, you know,
01:05:52.800
now I've, I follow that, that had just popped up or, or were smaller.
01:05:56.600
And then this became this thing that they did a tremendous amount of cover.
01:06:01.480
But then you look at the convoy and there they are.
01:06:03.480
And even look at Dave's story, like the life from the shed.
01:06:05.800
I mean, he just shows up, but there's a shed there.
01:06:16.520
Like, I talked to people from BC that were just going to go for a couple hours and
01:06:19.560
ended up following it all the way to Ottawa, right?
01:06:26.560
So I think I know the answer to this, but I think you need to say it in your own words
01:06:35.640
Well, it really hit me over the Christmas holidays and I had bought my seven-year-old
01:06:43.260
grandson a sled because we have a beautiful toboggan hill in Minnesota.
01:06:46.740
And I picked him up and we went, we went to the toboggan hill and, you know, we're climbing
01:06:50.460
up and we get halfway up one of our runs and I stopped because I'm old.
01:06:56.880
So, but, you know, we stopped halfway up this hill and I looked and, you know, there's
01:07:00.360
families laughing, little kids and teenagers, groups of teenagers.
01:07:05.640
And just kids, they're just the smiles and the happiness.
01:07:09.880
And I had that conscious thought that I would not trade that one nanosecond for any time
01:07:16.780
I would do it again in a second just to have that moment, you know?
01:07:24.000
He was probably one of the most patient men in Canada when all this was going on.
01:07:28.160
You know, you left and he was originally at home and didn't come until the lawyers came.
01:07:36.980
And I don't know where they are politically on this, but, you know, they've got their
01:07:39.920
own friends that may not be with you politically.
01:07:55.620
She may not support what we did, all of it, but she supports me.
01:07:59.600
And so, you know, we just agree to disagree and we don't get too heavy into political discussion.
01:08:04.540
We just know where the line is, where we can get away with, you know, poking jabs at each
01:08:12.400
She's not very political at all, but she's very proud of what we did.
01:08:18.800
And then my youngest is, you know, she's so young and she supports what we did.
01:08:23.800
But she went to school in Ottawa last year and it was, we had the situation.
01:08:29.700
She was moving to Ottawa to go to school last summer and I kept saying, well, I want to
01:08:35.280
And she kept kind of pushing me off and brushing me off and blowing me off.
1.00
01:08:40.040
Just to interject there, you actually had to get special permission from the court to
01:08:49.060
So, and I started to kind of get her feelings because she wasn't giving me any straight answers.
01:08:58.080
And it hit me that she was worried to be seen with me.
01:09:07.080
But what a moment of realization, you know, that that's where we're at now.
01:09:12.640
And I didn't want her to go to Ottawa and get cancelled.
01:09:15.180
And, you know, so I'm very grateful that I have a different last name as my daughters
01:09:19.300
because, you know, I think that spared them some ugliness.
01:09:27.540
So I think, but my family overall is incredibly supportive.
01:09:34.180
I had the funniest moment in Rutgers with my grandson the other day because we go in there.
01:09:39.780
And, of course, people sort of coming in and they're coming over and taking selfies
01:09:45.680
And poor little Zayden's like, what is going on?
01:09:49.300
So I had to kind of explain to him that people know who I am now.
01:09:54.220
So let me ask just in closing here, and I should say, first off, one of the more amusing
01:10:01.500
little anecdotes you share in the book is that when you went to jail, one of the first things
01:10:06.160
they did was offer you a vaccine, which I think probably is a sign of the times in more ways
01:10:15.460
You and Chris Barber are co-accused on this, and currently the Crown has shown no sign of
01:10:27.740
Are you going in with that same hope you had going into the convoy that truth will prevail?
01:10:37.980
We don't have a justice system in Canada, Andrew.
01:10:42.140
Because if there was any justice, Chris and I wouldn't be in this situation.
01:10:50.640
I feel like the truth will prevail, but there's always that chance, you know?
01:10:56.940
I think we have a really good judge who's got a good head on her shoulders.
0.99
01:11:05.100
It's going by fast, but there's still a lot of time between now and September.
01:11:12.680
We have a very emotionally vested and passionate Crown prosecutor, though, who would like to
01:11:23.180
Do you still have a bit of disbelief about that?
01:11:26.400
You know, just looking back at what you did and how that disproportionate Crown,
01:11:33.660
Well, every time I read my book, I mean, and I relive it again, you know, it's, it's,
01:11:39.160
I just get so frustrated and I feel angry and almost incredulous.
01:11:46.660
You want 10 years in jail for a mischief charge, an alleged mischief charge?
01:11:52.780
Like, you know, the, the just, justice Harris, justice of the peace Harris was trying to run
01:12:03.300
And, and even at the length of our trial, I mean, murder trials sometimes aren't 16 days.
01:12:13.780
Well, I know you never set out to be a leader, but you certainly were one and are one.
01:12:22.940
And it's a delight that we've got to do this finally.
01:12:26.360
Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
01:12:28.820
Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.