Juno News - Tamara Lich speaks out

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.340 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.600 Hello and welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:14.580 This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North, Wednesday, June 21st.

00:00:18.960 I know I flubbed the date on yesterday's show.

00:00:21.700 I was so excited about this one that I thought yesterday was the 21st and it was actually the 20th.

00:00:26.880 Anyway, I am now starting off the show by talking about dates again.

00:00:30.300 But nevertheless, it is going to be a great show because we are delving into an issue and a series of issues, I would say,

00:00:37.160 with a woman that has been very difficult to pin down for reasons that will become abundantly clear in a moment.

00:00:43.540 Her name is Tamara Leach. You may have heard of her.

00:00:45.860 She was involved a little over a year and a half ago in the, well, not actually that long.

00:00:50.120 No, it was about 16 months ago or so in this big world-shaking protest, certainly Ottawa-shaking protest.

00:00:56.700 She has been through the absolute ringer and it is not over yet.

00:01:01.620 She faces criminal charges still for which she has to answer in Ottawa court in just a couple of months.

00:01:08.220 But nevertheless, she found the time in the midst of all of these trials to write a new book called Hold the Line,

00:01:15.400 my story from the heart of the Freedom Convoy.

00:01:18.000 It is by Tamara Leach.

00:01:19.200 The foreword is by another woman who might be familiar to you, my colleague Rupa Subramanya.

00:01:24.260 And I had the opportunity last week to sit down with Tamara in depth and talk not just about her book,

00:01:31.220 but her whole experience.

00:01:32.780 And as you'll hear in the opening moments of this discussion,

00:01:36.340 there's a reason it has taken so long for us to sit down and do it.

00:01:40.440 And it's not for lack of trying or lack of will on either of our parts.

00:01:44.600 So enjoy, sit back.

00:01:46.060 This is my interview with author Tamara Leach.

00:01:49.100 Sitting down with the woman who made waves around Ottawa, the country, and I would even venture to say the world.

00:02:04.220 It is now the author of the fabulous new book, Hold the Line, Tamara Leach.

00:02:08.540 Tamara, it's good to sit down with you like this.

00:02:10.720 Thank you for doing this.

00:02:11.740 Long overdue.

00:02:12.340 Well, that's actually a great place to start on this because you and I have tried to do this for many, many months.

00:02:18.720 And I have never shared this with anyone before.

00:02:21.280 But at one point, you and I literally had an interview scheduled that you missed because you were in jail.

00:02:26.060 Yes, that's right.

00:02:26.840 Because you got pulled back to jail.

00:02:28.600 And why has it taken so long?

00:02:32.360 Since then, well, I did a month in jail after that.

00:02:34.660 And I think just the overly broad conditions that I was under, you know, Keith and I had to spend a lot of time, even when I decided to come out after the POEC and start talking, we had to go through those with a fine-tooth comb because they're so terribly worded and so broad that they didn't want me speaking, period.

00:02:54.220 For people that haven't followed the post-convoy travails that you've had here, what has been the trajectory?

00:03:03.580 What has been the story that you've had to basically live, especially earlier on in 2022?

00:03:09.900 Well, unbelievable bail conditions.

00:03:13.600 Very broadly written.

00:03:15.240 Very confusing.

00:03:16.200 And, you know, I've lost so many of my freedoms, my freedom of speech, you know, gathering or, you know, I'm not allowed to organize protests or rallies.

00:03:27.800 I don't even go.

00:03:28.600 I can't even go to them, actually.

00:03:31.000 And there were a group that I started with going to rallies and medicine had is meets every Saturday.

00:03:36.860 So and I still can't.

00:03:38.300 I'm not allowed to go down there.

00:03:39.440 So no social media.

00:03:41.160 Yeah, a lot of it's been a challenge, but the social media thing is kind of bittersweet.

00:03:47.260 I mean, sometimes I do wish that I would have a bail condition preventing me from using Twitter because it's such a cesspool at times.

00:03:53.660 It is.

00:03:54.100 But there's a difference between choosing to decide, like choosing not to do something and being told that you can't and threatened to be imprisoned if you do.

00:04:03.420 Yeah.

00:04:04.300 And it's crazy because I haven't even been found guilty of a crime, you know.

00:04:09.000 Well, and the crimes, I mean, quote unquote, of which you've been accused, anyone would say on the surface are minor crimes.

00:04:16.860 But the experiences that you've had have been, as we've seen certainly in recent months, more severe than people with violent criminal records are being forced to deal with.

00:04:26.500 So how has that felt when you've read all these news stories in the last few months about people who have committed sexual assaults, assaults, even murder while out on bail?

00:04:34.760 Well, here you are out on bail as well and having been thrown back in jail.

00:04:39.620 Well, that's the irony is a lot of those situations, those guys were convicted felons, like multiple, multiple convictions and violent convictions.

00:04:49.480 And I've never even been in Facebook jail until this happened.

00:04:53.220 So it's quite obvious that it's political, I think, and a bit vengeful, maybe.

00:05:00.440 It doesn't really make any sense how Chris and I are being treated.

00:05:04.380 And we got our dates for the trial in the fall, and there's like 16 days of trial for a mischief charge.

00:05:12.640 Yeah.

00:05:13.380 I saw that stretching out over several weeks.

00:05:16.280 Yes.

00:05:16.780 That you'll have to, for the first time, or get to, depending on how you look at it, answer for what you did.

00:05:22.800 And I'm curious about your outlook going into that, because when you were at the Public Order Emergency Commission, because of all these bail conditions, that was actually the first time you had really been able to speak about your experience and speak about the convoy through your own perspective.

00:05:37.420 On the criminal side, it's now been a year and seven months by the time this trial comes up that you've had to live with these charges hanging over your head, and you've never really been able to answer to them until now.

00:05:48.860 So how do you feel going into that?

00:05:50.180 Well, I think, honestly, until the report was released, I felt very confident that I'd never see the inside of a jail cell again.

00:05:58.520 And then that report was released, and I thought, well, maybe.

00:06:02.160 And, you know, the David Johnston whitewash that we just witnessed, it's all unsettling because you just don't know anymore.

00:06:11.240 You know, I don't really have any anxiety going into trial.

00:06:16.020 Well, I, because I'm not guilty.

00:06:19.380 I don't feel guilty.

00:06:21.560 And I consider myself actually lucky because I don't have anything to lose except time.

00:06:27.600 Whereas Chris Barber is, you know, in a completely different situation.

00:06:30.920 He's got his own business.

00:06:32.260 He's the sole breadwinner.

00:06:33.640 And, you know, so he's got a lot more to lose.

00:06:36.500 And he's still got, I think he's still got a teenage daughter at home.

00:06:39.060 So one thing that was quite striking reading your book is that a lot of it is looking back.

00:06:45.580 A lot of it is talking about the convoy.

00:06:47.460 And, I mean, you actually spend a fair amount of time talking about all the situations that led to it, the restrictions, the mandates, the lockdowns.

00:06:54.800 But there are some parts, I don't know if it's intentional on your part, where you're talking about things in the present tense.

00:07:00.480 Like one that stuck out to me is when you said, I've heard Tom Marazzo is having a rough time or something to that effect.

00:07:06.840 And you sort of, as a reader, are jarred by that.

00:07:09.460 At least I was.

00:07:10.160 Because, oh, wow, she's still not able to talk to this guy who she knows and cares about except for in the presence of counsel.

00:07:18.940 And I think that's an important point for people is that while the convoy is easy to look at as a piece of history because it was, for you, this is very much a present.

00:07:28.280 You're still living through this story.

00:07:30.720 Yeah, it's actually funny.

00:07:31.840 I was thinking about that on the drive in.

00:07:33.900 Like it's been, what, a year and a half now?

00:07:35.760 And I think a lot of people have just moved on, as you do.

00:07:40.560 You know, that's natural.

00:07:41.440 But for us, we are still living it every single day, you know?

00:07:46.740 So, yeah, it's been quite an experience, to put it mildly.

00:07:52.900 Let's talk a little bit about what you went through in jail.

00:07:56.880 Because one of the things that I found, and this is probably the story of the convoy in and of itself, is you had all these people that were coming up to you through your justice process that were supporters.

00:08:08.080 You had jail guards, you had a court employee, you had police officers that were all coming up to you.

00:08:12.980 And I'm guessing quite quietly telling you that people were standing behind you.

00:08:17.520 But you were still part of this, and they were still part of this apparatus that was trying to make you a criminal.

00:08:25.140 So how did that feel?

00:08:26.500 And did you feel conflicted in where those people were coming from?

00:08:31.720 Because they were still agents of this process.

00:08:35.180 Well, that is kind of strange.

00:08:38.140 I really appreciated the support.

00:08:40.380 And, I mean, like, I think I talk about Robert in my book.

00:08:43.720 I mean, that was just an incredible experience.

00:08:46.540 This is the courtroom employee in Ottawa, right?

00:08:48.760 There was another guard there that texted his wife because he was taking me down, and he didn't put my shackles on either.

00:08:55.480 Like, typically they put them on every time you leave the courtroom.

00:08:58.040 But he was pretty good to me, too.

00:09:02.540 These people are just trying to feed their families, I think.

00:09:05.860 And I know, like in Robert's case, like, he looked like he was going to cry.

00:09:11.860 He was just devastated that he had to put handcuffs on me.

00:09:14.440 And he's in that system.

00:09:16.660 He's a part of that system.

00:09:18.260 So I think it's hard on them, too, because they do have families to feed, right?

00:09:23.220 And I think a lot of people get into that, into those types of jobs because they want to make a difference.

00:09:29.540 Well, I've come to the conclusion that only two types of people get into that line of work.

00:09:33.500 People that really want to make a difference and change people's lives and be positive impact on lives and people that were picked on in school.

00:09:41.840 That's it.

00:09:42.840 Those are the two.

00:09:43.580 Yeah, the two types, yes.

00:09:45.320 How have you come through this process without the bitterness that I think you would be entirely justified in feeling?

00:09:53.820 Not just about the system itself, but even about individual people.

00:09:57.180 I've never heard you speak about people with anything but kindness, even people that have metaphorically slapped you many times over.

00:10:05.860 And I think even this is an example.

00:10:07.240 You have people that are putting the handcuffs on you and you're saying they're trying to feed their families.

00:10:11.860 They have a job to do.

00:10:12.820 They believe when they got into this they were doing the right thing.

00:10:16.140 Is that just who you are or has that been a struggle?

00:10:18.860 Has that been a fight for you?

00:10:20.020 No, that is who I am.

00:10:22.000 I've had a lot of people within the last few weeks, and I guess maybe because of my book, say, how do you stay so positive?

00:10:29.160 And, you know, aren't you angry?

00:10:30.660 And that isn't who I am.

00:10:33.360 I mean, what are my choices?

00:10:34.520 I can be miserable and depressed, or I can just get up every morning, put one foot in front of the other and keep on keeping on.

00:10:42.840 And, you know, our message throughout the whole convoy was we don't win this with hatred and anger and division.

00:10:49.520 I mean, if I can't forgive people for the wrongs that they've committed against me, you know, how do you expect to build bridges across an entire nation?

00:11:01.020 There's so much that when you and I first were trying to sit down that I wanted to hear from you about the whole process of the convoy and how you got involved and what's happened since.

00:11:13.620 And we're going to try to do as much of it as we can, but I know we could probably sit down over many, many days and still leave stuff that, oh, yeah, we should have talked about this or should have talked about that.

00:11:22.680 But let's go back to the beginning and your own involvement in this, because you were never a particularly political person.

00:11:30.140 And I think that, you know, everyone has heard you talk about the United We Roll and the Yellow Vest, that sort of 2019 approach that we saw really make a bit of a splash, but not ultimately go anywhere.

00:11:42.820 But explain for people that haven't read your book yet and for people that haven't heard your story, when did Tamara Leach, the political activist, come into picture?

00:11:51.840 I would say that started with about 2018-19, where I got really involved and active in local groups because of the policies of the Liberal government.

00:12:06.360 And most of it at that time was all attacks against the oil and gas industry, which, you know, is a big part of the Alberta economy.

00:12:12.140 And again, I mean, really, a lot like COVID, a lot of the things that they were legislating didn't make any sense.

00:12:21.020 And then after the 2019 election, when Trudeau got elected again, I just thought, I can't, I can't, I got to do something.

00:12:28.240 Somebody has to do something.

00:12:29.700 And I joined Peter Downing from Edmonton, had started a Wexit movement based off the UK Brexit movement.

00:12:37.600 And I joined that and became a volunteer.

00:12:40.300 And just over the course of time, that morphed into the Maverick Party.

00:12:43.800 And we built a federal independence party from there.

00:12:47.180 And I sat on that board until we got to Ottawa, actually.

00:12:51.380 I resigned shortly after we arrived.

00:12:53.480 And just trying to, just sick of the deal that the West has been getting.

00:12:59.480 And, of course, my perspective on separation has changed considerably because of my convoy experience.

00:13:06.040 But I think now we just need to separate from Ottawa.

00:13:10.140 All of Canada needs to separate from Ottawa.

00:13:12.380 Yeah, but not even secession as far as just declaring kind of independence as individuals, I think.

00:13:17.740 Yes, yes.

00:13:18.080 But this is, I think, one of the most fascinating and, I mean, in some cases complicated,

00:13:23.480 elements of the convoy.

00:13:24.960 And that you had people that were driven to Ottawa, literally, but I meant figuratively,

00:13:29.380 in part because of anger.

00:13:30.840 And I think very justifiable anger.

00:13:33.060 But there also was this patriotism there.

00:13:36.760 And, I mean, I remember you and I spoke previously.

00:13:39.200 And you had said something along the lines of telling, I think it was Chris Barber,

00:13:42.280 to take his upside-down Canadian flag and turn it the right side up.

00:13:46.040 I mean, this is not a symbol of distress that we want to show.

00:13:49.120 It's a symbol of Canada.

00:13:50.360 And I was wondering how you felt about that.

00:13:53.520 Because, obviously, you're going there because something is wrong in your country.

00:13:56.580 But people still seem to be generally united by, I don't know if it was a faith in Canada,

00:14:01.880 a hope in Canada, or maybe it was a nostalgia for a Canada that they wanted to bring back.

00:14:06.460 What's your thought on that?

00:14:08.580 Well, you're right.

00:14:09.280 I think people were justifiably angry and they felt hopeless and, like, nobody was doing anything to help them.

00:14:18.700 You know, and at that time, the rest of the world was starting to open up and we're being vilified and told we can't travel in our own country.

00:14:26.000 And right about the time that we started the convoy, they were discussing stopping interprovincial travel.

00:14:33.920 Which, I mean, I've got family all over the prairies and that wasn't going to work for me.

00:14:40.000 You know what I mean?

00:14:40.960 So I think the driver was people were just fed up and sick and tired and felt like a lot of the things that we were being told was nonsense

00:14:49.880 and just saw this as a, pardon the pun, vehicle, you know, for them to channel that energy into.

00:14:56.480 And they just, the grassroots of it all is what made it so beautiful.

00:15:02.300 Because these people didn't phone each other up in their communities and organize groups going out to the highway and the overpasses.

00:15:09.000 They just got out there and then saw all these other people, you know, and then they realized that they weren't alone.

00:15:16.300 And then they, yes, really started throwing their support behind us.

00:15:21.280 Yeah, and I think just the united we role, to go back to that, I think it was a more meaningful moment for people.

00:15:26.500 Because, again, conservatives don't often protest.

00:15:28.680 They're too busy working and raising their families.

00:15:30.340 So they did it, but no one really said it had lasting effects.

00:15:34.660 I mean, the bills that were being protested still went ahead.

00:15:37.440 And that was a literal convoy that went to Ottawa and then turned around and came home.

00:15:41.760 So having gone through that, what made you think this convoy was different before you saw people lining the overpasses,

00:15:49.280 before you saw all of the people showing up, when this was still that nugget of an idea that was being planned by Bridget Belton and Chris Barber,

00:15:55.980 and then a few days later you, I mean, what made you think this was actually going to be more real?

00:16:00.340 What made you think this was going to be more real than that?

00:16:02.000 Well, I think the difference was United Re-Roll was primarily surrounding oil and gas.

00:16:07.720 So only one industry, whereas the freedom convoy was for our entire country.

00:16:13.900 Like, it affected everyone, you know.

00:16:16.160 So I think that's the big difference there.

00:16:17.820 And, you know, kudos to them, because I know that they saw a lot of crowds and there was a lot of unity that came as a result of that, too.

00:16:25.940 But you're right.

00:16:27.080 I mean, their mandate wasn't successful.

00:16:29.840 So you come into this, and there was this whole sort of organic nature that, you know, I talked about in my book,

00:16:39.440 and you talk about in your book, of people that just, you know, they know someone, they know someone,

00:16:43.320 they all end up on these calls, and you've got other people saying, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this.

00:16:48.180 What was your role coming into it, in your words?

00:16:51.980 Because I remember there was a line in your book, and I don't remember the exact quote, but you basically say,

00:16:55.440 I never intended or thought I'd be a leader of anything.

00:16:59.220 Yeah, well, I just wanted to support.

00:17:01.820 I mean, that's initially why I reached out to Chris and Bridget, was just to say,

00:17:05.160 you guys are going to need help, and you're going to need, you know.

00:17:07.800 Especially because they were actually trucking, too.

00:17:09.540 Yeah, that's right.

00:17:09.940 They couldn't just be at their desk all day.

00:17:11.580 Exactly.

00:17:12.180 So they needed basically admin support, right?

00:17:14.460 So, which is what I was like, these are my skills.

00:17:17.360 Let me help you.

00:17:18.320 And, you know, as you saw, the donations started to pour in, and our social media went crazy.

00:17:25.100 So I recognized immediately that we needed help, and a lot of it.

00:17:29.440 And then we started forming the committees and stuff, right?

00:17:32.320 Yeah, and I remember at one point previously, you said your plan was, you know, raise $10,000 or $20,000,

00:17:37.100 buy some truckers some sandwiches.

00:17:38.680 And you thought Chris Barber was crazy for wanting a six-figure sum to be the target for the GoFundMe.

00:17:44.540 And then, of course, you were both crazy, because it ended up being $10 million.

00:17:47.260 I know, it was unbelievable.

00:17:49.380 Try to explain as best as you can how you felt seeing that number rise.

00:17:55.540 Because I almost would imagine that it wasn't quite real, because it's not cash.

00:18:00.600 It's a number on a monitor.

00:18:02.240 It's like you're looking at this, and it's like, but how did you feel just seeing that thing rise

00:18:06.620 at a certain point by a million dollars a day?

00:18:09.640 Oh, it was exhilarating and terrifying at the same time.

00:18:13.600 And I would, you know, Cindy would get a hold of me and say, you've got to bump it up another

00:18:18.020 million.

00:18:18.580 And I would, and it was so exciting.

00:18:20.820 But on the other hand, like I would literally get sick to my stomach, because I knew there

00:18:25.540 was lawyers coming.

00:18:26.440 I mean, you don't talk about millions of dollars without people coming to try and take it away.

00:18:30.940 Well, and you, just for people to understand, you set this up to a personal bank account

00:18:35.520 that was 13 cents overdrawn.

00:18:38.380 And there was a great little moment in the book where you say you donated, or not donated,

00:18:41.680 but you transferred 13 cents to that account.

00:18:44.560 So no one could say that you even benefited, you know, by 13 cents.

00:18:48.040 That's right.

00:18:48.760 I was so careful.

00:18:50.280 I even, after Chris and I had opened another account in Ottawa for the donations, I had the,

00:18:58.820 I called the bank and asked them to remove the access right off my access cards.

00:19:01.880 Because I, like, I didn't even want to accidentally buy myself a coffee, you know what I mean?

00:19:05.220 Yeah.

00:19:05.740 Like, I took that role very seriously.

00:19:07.760 And, and I think that's one of the reasons that I became one of the faces of it was because

00:19:14.260 it got, it became really important to me that Canadians who were trusting, essentially,

00:19:19.180 it was my name on the, on the GoFundMe, trusting me with all that money.

00:19:23.440 And I just wanted people to get a sense of who I was.

00:19:26.960 I wanted them to know that it was going to be a very open and transparent process and that

00:19:31.600 their donations would go to exactly where it was intended to go.

00:19:35.280 So that's why I started doing the lives and then the support, you know, just to say thank

00:19:40.600 you and, and just as the days wore on, just to tell Canadians just how super proud I was.

00:19:48.120 You know, we were all so proud of them.

00:19:49.900 They just rose to the occasion.

00:19:51.920 And it was, the convoy for me was one of the most beautiful experiences in humanity that

00:19:59.440 I've seen.

00:20:00.440 You and Chris didn't know each other.

00:20:03.240 No.

00:20:03.640 But got into a truck together and drove across the country, which for most people would be

00:20:08.720 like a, you know, some people find a blind date to be a disaster, whereas you were committing

00:20:13.280 to have many, many days together.

00:20:15.600 But, you know, you were basically instant friends, it sounded like.

00:20:19.100 We really were, right?

00:20:20.320 That first phone call, we hit it off.

00:20:22.920 And then I, of course, found out that he's from the same part of Saskatchewan that I'm

00:20:26.380 at.

00:20:26.660 So, yeah, we got along great.

00:20:28.240 And I knew within talking to them for 15 minutes that we were going to be BFFs.

00:20:33.640 What was that drive like?

00:20:34.820 I know a lot of it was chronicled by your lives, but, but the stuff that we didn't see,

00:20:38.820 what was that journey like?

00:20:40.240 It was exhausting.

00:20:42.600 It was busy.

00:20:43.500 I think I joke in my book that, you know, if Chris and I some days got to talk to each

00:20:48.100 other for five full minutes, that was kind of a miracle.

00:20:51.000 I mean, we were just both so super busy.

00:20:53.880 And, and, but we did, we discussed what could happen when we got there because we didn't

00:20:58.660 really know what to expect.

00:21:00.440 You know, we discussed, you know, what are we going, what are we going to do when we get

00:21:05.260 there?

00:21:05.500 Like we've organized this massive convoy.

00:21:07.920 We're moving across Canada.

00:21:09.180 Now what, you know, so, uh, you know, that all had to be put together and, and, um, yeah,

00:21:16.440 it was, it was fun.

00:21:18.040 It was tiring.

00:21:19.520 Uh, Jonathan, his son was with us too.

00:21:21.980 So we got to know each other pretty well.

00:21:25.080 You know, I, I, I trust Chris Barber with my life.

00:21:27.960 Tell me about Manitoba.

00:21:29.880 Hmm.

00:21:30.620 Yeah, that was amazing.

00:21:34.240 Uh, Manitoba is one of my favorite things to talk about for obvious reasons.

00:21:39.160 And, and that was, I don't know if it is obvious to find good things to talk about

00:21:42.420 Manitoba.

00:21:43.040 So please tell them.

00:21:43.960 Oh yeah.

00:21:44.600 It was, it was so surreal because we, we, as we came into Headingley even, there was

00:21:50.460 massive crowds all along the road, like coming right up to the side of the trucks even,

00:21:56.460 you know, we had to go so slow.

00:21:58.140 And this just, this crowd continued all the way through Headingley and all the way around

00:22:02.800 Winnipeg and almost to the border.

00:22:05.020 But the epiphany as we're driving and I look out the window and I see these native dancers

00:22:12.480 drumming on the side of the road.

00:22:14.940 And there's, I think there was like four Sikh gentlemen standing beside them and they

00:22:19.240 were, you know, hooting and hollering and nuns in full habits and hutterates and their

00:22:23.840 children.

00:22:24.160 And I just thought that was the moment when I realized that it didn't matter who you were,

00:22:30.840 what color your skin was, what God you worshiped, what your income bracket was or where you lived.

00:22:37.020 Everyone was just a Canadian and they were celebrating it.

00:22:41.260 You know, it was the most beautiful thing.

00:22:43.520 And Justin, diversity is our strength, Trudeau.

00:22:46.520 Yes.

00:22:47.060 Doesn't care about these diverse groups, not the Sikhs that supported the convoy, the

00:22:51.340 indigenous that supported the convoy, the nuns.

00:22:53.900 It's only a certain type of diversity that we exalt in that way of thinking.

00:22:58.240 And something interesting that Nolene Villabren, one of the clan mothers, I think you've met

00:23:02.380 her, said in her witness statement at the inquiry was, which is profound.

00:23:07.400 She said that the freedom convoy was the closest thing she's seen to an actual reconciliation

00:23:13.580 in her lifetime, which is a pretty profound statement from a clan mother and an elder.

00:23:20.600 I was going to ask you actually about the indigenous dimension to this, because that was the one

00:23:25.960 story above all else that the mainstream media, I think, had to be willfully ignoring because

00:23:31.640 it went against everything that they say in every other context about, you know, reconciliation,

00:23:36.480 about the need to be compassionate and tolerant of indigenous people.

00:23:40.200 We know that in Canada, indigenous people had lower vaccination rates against COVID than

00:23:45.200 non-indigenous people, which means that they were, by definition, disproportionately affected

00:23:50.320 by vaccine mandates, because there were more of them that had chosen not to get that.

00:23:55.380 And normally, you'd think in a tolerant, compassionate society, we'd say, OK, maybe we'd recognize the

00:24:01.040 past trauma of indigenous people.

00:24:03.040 All of this stuff that we're told to talk about with residential schools and so on.

00:24:07.560 But with COVID, that was completely ignored.

00:24:10.900 The liberal government didn't care about it.

00:24:12.660 Provincial governments didn't care about it.

00:24:14.300 The media didn't care about it.

00:24:15.600 But if you walked around the convoy in Ottawa, there were indigenous people everywhere.

00:24:22.420 And that's rare in political movements, that you see that group aligned with something

00:24:26.240 that is more broadly conservative or broadly attracts conservatives.

00:24:30.540 So did you know that going into it, that that was going to be this demographic that would

00:24:35.040 really take to this cause?

00:24:37.300 I didn't know that it was going to be on that scale.

00:24:40.720 I mean, I remember the video that I did after I first talked to Nolene.

00:24:45.100 And that was another eye-opening moment for me that we had a real chance here to work together.

00:24:51.600 You know what I mean?

00:24:52.240 Like, when do you see that happen?

00:24:54.120 You hear the government talking about it, but you rarely see it.

00:24:58.100 And I knew that, you know, when she came on board and wanted to help, and Sandra McKenzie

00:25:04.580 also, that, you know, we had a real opportunity here to start mending fences and working together.

00:25:10.700 And as a whole, when we got there, there was a large number of indigenous people.

00:25:15.120 But the media only focused on the ones that were upset that we were there.

00:25:18.040 You know, because that's what they do.

00:25:20.320 Even my own indigenous heritage, like I talk about in my book, it's laughable that they

00:25:25.000 questioned it.

00:25:26.120 Because if I would have been there for any other cause, they'd be parading me around the

00:25:29.680 country right now, giving me the order of Canada.

00:25:32.620 But because it wasn't for something that fit the liberal government's ideology, they questioned

00:25:38.520 it.

00:25:39.660 You know what I mean?

00:25:40.620 Yeah, I mean, you had the Aboriginal People's Television Network running a whole story on

00:25:45.960 essentially questioning your indigenous heritage.

00:25:49.720 So, I mean, you don't need to set the record straight, but explain to me about how that

00:25:54.260 heritage matters to you.

00:25:55.760 Because that was something that I didn't quite get a full picture of until I read it in your

00:26:01.460 book, of just the connection you've had to that part of your identity.

00:26:04.320 Well, I was adopted into a Caucasian family when I was quite, was two or three months old.

00:26:11.720 And so, but I always felt a very strong connection.

00:26:14.720 And my parents were wonderful about, you know, always letting me know that I was adopted and

00:26:19.700 making sure that I embraced my heritage.

00:26:22.100 And so I, unfortunately, though, didn't have access to, there's not a lot of elders in

00:26:28.340 frontier Saskatchewan, you know.

00:26:30.320 Um, so I had, had to go out and find it on my own and, and researched it.

00:26:35.180 And, um, it's just a, it's just something that's always resonated with me and been important

00:26:39.980 to me and I've embraced it.

00:26:42.200 And I think it's a beautiful part of, of Canadian history.

00:26:46.700 And, um, yeah, it's, uh, I don't know how else to describe it.

00:26:52.100 It's just a part of who I am.

00:26:53.520 It is.

00:26:54.320 And it was fascinating to see when you made a joke in your text messages with Chris Barber

00:26:59.300 about, you know, I'll play the indigenous card or something like that.

00:27:01.760 The race card.

00:27:02.300 The race card.

00:27:02.980 Yeah.

00:27:03.280 The media latched into this on, you know, like as evidence of what I don't know when

00:27:07.380 you're really just saying, you know, if they want to play the identity politics game, well,

00:27:10.800 here I am a Métis woman, I'm going to come out and play that game too.

00:27:13.480 That's exactly right.

00:27:13.880 And I took that and I sort of chuckled at it, but people got very angry about that.

00:27:17.280 And the crown prosecutor almost lost his mind.

00:27:19.680 Yeah.

00:27:20.020 So they don't think you have a right to be indigenous because you aren't their type of indigenous.

00:27:25.340 Right.

00:27:25.540 Well, I mean, but that's the funny thing in today's world, right?

00:27:29.500 You can just identify as something now, which is funny because I identify as innocent, but

00:27:33.760 yet here I am.

00:27:35.020 Yeah.

00:27:35.800 You know, it's become a country that's creating policies and legislation on hurt feelings,

00:27:43.800 and that's dangerous.

00:27:45.620 That's dangerous territory.

00:27:47.380 When your government starts trying to tell you what is appropriate for you to believe

00:27:53.040 and not to believe, what's appropriate for you to think and not to think, you're getting

00:27:57.640 into some pretty sketchy territory there.

00:28:00.380 Let's return to the journey to Ottawa, because so much was going to the fundraising campaign,

00:28:07.160 how to get to Ottawa, the logistics of that, of hotels, motels along the way.

00:28:11.940 Fuel.

00:28:12.500 You get to Ottawa, and what did you expect?

00:28:16.940 What was your plan going into it?

00:28:18.720 Because I know this was basically the whole point of the Public Order Emergency Commission

00:28:22.540 in large parts of it, was did they always intend to stick around indefinitely?

00:28:26.600 Was that always your plan?

00:28:28.380 We wanted to see the mandates lifted.

00:28:31.400 That was our plan.

00:28:32.280 Obviously, you know, if they would have showed any type of good faith towards, especially,

00:28:37.680 you know, towards the end and just came and talked to us, like, I think by that point,

00:28:42.320 people were ready to leave.

00:28:43.480 Like, they were tired and they wanted to go home.

00:28:45.040 So I think if we would have had a show of good faith, maybe that would have stopped it.

00:28:49.040 But, you know, like I was saying earlier, Chris and I discussed that, like, what are we

00:28:53.400 going to do when we get there?

00:28:54.380 And we didn't know what to expect.

00:28:56.000 And so we needed an exit strategy, which thankfully, once the lawyers got in, we started

00:29:03.200 working on that.

00:29:04.580 But it was never the right time to release it.

00:29:06.980 And you never had one from the outset.

00:29:08.760 You never had an exit strategy going in.

00:29:10.700 We were just trying to get to Ottawa in one piece.

00:29:14.440 And figure the rest out later.

00:29:15.500 Which was, yeah, which does sound incredibly crazy.

00:29:18.120 But, I mean, that was like 16, 18-hour days for me.

00:29:21.680 You know, I'd get up at 5 or 6 in the morning and go to bed at 2 or 3 at night.

00:29:24.940 And then I'd lay in bed for an hour thinking, oh, I forgot to do this or I got to do that.

00:29:28.520 And, you know, we were organizing fuel.

00:29:31.060 We were looking for hotels for supporters that were traveling with us to stay in.

00:29:36.120 Because most of the truckers obviously had their own vehicles, their bunks.

00:29:40.420 The routes, where we were going to stop.

00:29:42.440 And then we had all the people that wanted to bring food and coffee and sandwiches and

00:29:48.020 donations.

00:29:49.160 You know what I mean?

00:29:49.760 So it was a lot to put together and to do it safely, you know.

00:29:54.240 And I'm so proud of my mom and dad and Chris.

00:29:57.940 Both mom and dad were in the lead pilot.

00:30:01.280 But, you know, the fact that when we got into Arnfriar, we were 100 kilometers long.

00:30:05.400 And we had not one single accident.

00:30:08.660 Which is, that's a miracle.

00:30:10.620 I don't even know if I could just drive alone from BC to Ottawa without getting into an accident.

00:30:16.260 But it's funny you mentioned the length.

00:30:19.220 Because the one thing that I remember trying to report on this that was next to impossible

00:30:22.960 was to get any sense of numbers.

00:30:26.260 And I gave up at a certain point because no one had them.

00:30:29.100 And it's like, and there were all of these myths circulating.

00:30:31.300 Like people say, well, you know, the front is in Ontario and the back is in Alberta or

00:30:34.740 something like that.

00:30:35.640 There were all these myths.

00:30:36.320 People say, oh, 15,000 trucks, this many trucks.

00:30:38.640 And I think a lot of it was just people being very enthusiastic or they hear something.

00:30:42.780 But there was almost a fun to that.

00:30:45.200 Which was this thing was just kind of rapidly taking on its own mythology, if you will.

00:30:50.400 And just people were seeing it was massive.

00:30:52.860 Because small things are easy to count.

00:30:55.740 Big things are not.

00:30:57.280 So the fact that no one could come up with a number was, I think, a sign of how large this

00:31:00.960 thing was.

00:31:01.500 I mean, everyone saw early on those drone footage that you'd see of the highways out

00:31:06.140 in Alberta.

00:31:06.840 And just like, holy crap.

00:31:08.660 It was insane.

00:31:10.080 It was because we never got to see that.

00:31:12.020 No.

00:31:12.180 Because we were in the front.

00:31:12.820 No, you just saw the road in front.

00:31:13.980 Especially at the right.

00:31:14.560 You didn't even see the back of a truck.

00:31:15.860 Yeah, you just saw the front.

00:31:16.680 That's right.

00:31:16.800 Exactly.

00:31:17.780 It was.

00:31:18.340 Oh, man.

00:31:18.980 It was.

00:31:19.700 Yeah, there was a lot.

00:31:20.680 There was so many rumors.

00:31:21.700 Yeah, I heard at one point when we were crossing into Ontario, the end was just coming through

00:31:26.760 the Saskatchewan.

00:31:28.020 Yeah, that was it.

00:31:29.240 I was like, you guys, it's not like in some of our own.

00:31:31.500 People were saying that.

00:31:32.580 I said, we're not five hours long.

00:31:34.560 We're maybe like an hour long, but we're not certainly.

00:31:37.180 But again, to your point on that, there was also a smaller group that might have been passing

00:31:42.200 that point.

00:31:42.960 That's right.

00:31:43.060 And, you know, it's not necessarily an unbroken chain.

00:31:45.000 Because there were so many.

00:31:45.820 But yeah, like, I mean, one of my jobs, of course, with the finance committee that we

00:31:50.160 set up, we had all these beautiful processes in place and stuff and how we were going to

00:31:55.420 do this and great in theory, you know, like.

00:31:59.680 Everyone register with your road captain to get real.

00:32:02.380 I'm going to walk around and hand out registration forms and I'm going to stand at the gas pumps

00:32:07.600 when they, you know, and it became apparent right away that that was not even in the realm

00:32:11.700 of reality.

00:32:12.260 But one of my jobs was to send the committees road counts every day or truck counts.

00:32:17.160 And it was impossible because people would come and, you know, drive for a couple hours

00:32:22.400 or drive across the province or drive for two days or whatever.

00:32:25.720 Yeah, they'd come in for a little bit.

00:32:27.300 Yeah.

00:32:27.920 Yeah.

00:32:28.200 Well, and while all of this was happening, there was this parallel organization taking place

00:32:33.100 in Ottawa, which I guess we could call the welcome committee for lack of a better term.

00:32:37.440 And they were setting up this operations center at the Swiss Hotel.

00:32:41.840 You had all of these people there.

00:32:43.380 How much of that did you know was happening?

00:32:46.540 We started meeting with that group before we left.

00:32:49.020 Yeah.

00:32:49.260 So, so yeah, they were starting to get the infrastructure.

00:32:51.860 I can't remember the first time I talked to Chris Guerra and Janet, but.

00:32:55.420 Chris Guerra is the guy who founded Adopt-a-Trucker.

00:32:57.900 Yes, that's right.

00:32:58.620 Exactly.

00:32:58.820 And they had their own gifts or their own.

00:33:00.900 I don't know if they had a GoFundMe.

00:33:01.960 They had their own gifts and go.

00:33:03.340 Yeah.

00:33:03.540 Yeah.

00:33:03.720 Yeah.

00:33:04.180 So he was setting that up.

00:33:05.680 And I think Adopt-a-Trucker happened just before we got there or after.

00:33:10.240 In the meantime, or in the beginning, though, he had a group together that was, you know,

00:33:13.460 making sure there was food and, well, port-a-potties, we were hoping.

00:33:16.880 That was an adventure in itself, trying to get those.

00:33:20.240 But, you know, just getting the infrastructure set up and places to stay and places for the

00:33:23.760 truckers and supporters to shower and stay warm and that kind of thing.

00:33:27.580 So, and so we were in heavy conversations with them, too, so that we knew, you know, where

00:33:32.980 we were going when we got there and stuff.

00:33:34.360 But you were at the Swiss Hotel.

00:33:36.720 So I accidentally went to the Swiss Hotel because it was on that first weekend, I think

00:33:41.220 it was the Sunday, and Benjamin Dichter had organized this little informal press conference

00:33:47.300 with only independent media.

00:33:49.380 And it was, there was a room number, and I think it was, the room number started with

00:33:52.620 a one.

00:33:53.240 So I, and I wasn't sure if the first floor was the basement or the level above it or

00:33:57.360 something.

00:33:57.580 And I walked in and walked downstairs and I walk into this room and I'm like, what the

00:34:01.200 heck is this place?

00:34:02.040 I see, you know, people on computers, people milling about, there's food, there's this.

00:34:05.900 And I'm like, I'm here for the press conference.

00:34:07.140 They're like, oh yeah, you want to go upstairs and down the hall.

00:34:09.580 And that was for me, even though I'd been kind of following this for a couple of weeks

00:34:13.460 by now, that was the eye-opening moment for me.

00:34:15.800 There's another story here that no one is talking about and no one knows about, which

00:34:20.420 is just the, frankly, the sophistication of this really grassroots movement.

00:34:26.120 And, and I guess I'll ask you about that because do you think it got too complicated?

00:34:31.260 Because even in your book, you're writing about, oh, we had security, we had intelligence,

00:34:35.900 we had logistics, we had law enforcement, we had medical, we had to, was all of that

00:34:40.480 necessary for a bunch of trucks on Wellington Street?

00:34:43.760 I believe so because, because of the scale.

00:34:47.680 I mean, and even in the early, early days, you know, as the donations started coming in

00:34:51.640 and the emails and the Facebook messages, I knew instinctively right away that we needed

00:34:57.000 to start focusing on safety.

00:34:58.980 And, you know, when we saw, you know, even the numbers in Ottawa, you know, we had to

00:35:03.600 keep those emergency lanes open.

00:35:05.200 So, you know, having somebody like Thomas was just fantastic because he was a paramedic.

00:35:10.220 So he knew the routes, he knew, you know, that we needed to keep these lanes open.

00:35:14.220 He, and specifically the ones that they use the most, same with Danny Bulford.

00:35:18.840 I mean, we got some really amazing, amazing people to help with this.

00:35:25.140 And I think we needed every bit of it.

00:35:28.700 It sounds like it was complicated, but I think when we were facing the attacks from the government,

00:35:33.780 you know, the attacks from the police, the Ottawa city police and the city, you know,

00:35:38.080 we needed it.

00:35:38.700 We needed every bit of it and more probably, you know.

00:35:42.780 You had become by this point, the face of this movement.

00:35:46.980 I mean, in large part because of the Facebook lives and large part because yours was the

00:35:50.820 name on the GoFundMe account.

00:35:52.620 Did you ever feel a sense of, I don't know if guilt is the right word, but a discomfort

00:35:57.320 that you were not a trucker, but had become the focal point of this trucker led protest?

00:36:02.940 No, because I've, I did, I used my skill set.

00:36:08.900 My skill set isn't driving a truck, but I used the skills that I had to try and make

00:36:13.100 it successful.

00:36:14.140 And so it started, it started with the truckers, but I don't feel like that was a trucker movement.

00:36:19.060 They were the catalyst in a Canadian movement, if that makes sense.

00:36:24.700 You know, there was a lot of people there that weren't truckers.

00:36:27.180 So, I mean, they're definitely heroes, of course, for, you know, driving there.

00:36:34.200 It was like seeing the cavalry, you know, going off to war basically and holding their ground

00:36:40.040 and just being great people.

00:36:43.160 So, I'm proud that I could use my skill set to help them, you know.

00:36:48.020 But there was some resentment that started to go your way.

00:36:51.240 I mean, notably, and you talk about this in the book, is Bridget Belton, who undeniably,

00:36:55.720 and you give her full credit for this, was one of the sparks behind this.

00:36:59.060 It was her persistence that got her linked up with Chris Barber and they started promoting

00:37:02.900 this thing, but she then started to grow very frustrated with you getting the glory

00:37:09.280 and the attention on that.

00:37:11.020 How did that unfold?

00:37:12.680 I started sensing that right the first day that we got to the hill, honestly.

00:37:17.480 And so I made, you know, if people would come up to me, Chris and Bridget and I were up

00:37:23.960 there and I would always go over and grab her and introduce her and, you know, explain

00:37:27.880 to everybody who she was because I didn't want to take that away from her.

00:37:31.840 And, you know, we had a few run-ins in Ottawa where I felt like I had to tell her, like,

00:37:37.040 look, I didn't ask for this.

00:37:38.760 You know, I never came looking for this.

00:37:40.720 I just want a better country for my grandkids to grow up in.

00:37:44.440 So that was tough, you know, and we'd have discussions and I always felt like when we

00:37:48.720 finished those discussions that everything was fine and five minutes later it would be

00:37:53.820 starting all over again.

00:37:55.180 And so it's unfortunate and I pray for her.

00:38:00.460 I pray that she finds some peace of mind and, you know, whatever it is she's looking

00:38:05.880 for.

00:38:07.000 You know, this whole movement wasn't about me.

00:38:09.940 It wasn't about Chris Barber.

00:38:11.220 It wasn't about Bridget Belton.

00:38:12.760 This was about Canada, you know, and every person that lined an overpass or went out along

00:38:21.340 the highway or donated money is also a hero because what would they have been without

00:38:25.760 them? You know, we could have drove across Canada, but if it wasn't for the support from

00:38:32.020 the people, then it would have been just for nothing.

00:38:34.920 I know Benjamin Dichter was very, very diligent about wanting to control the message and,

00:38:41.660 you know, prevent all these little pop-up press conferences that the people were having

00:38:45.340 and try to speak with relatively one voice and it was usually his or yours.

00:38:49.260 And I know there were some other people there.

00:38:50.800 And do you feel like that ended up hurting the movement in a way because it was so grassroots

00:38:57.680 and to try to have one voice, to try to have press conferences, did that make it look a

00:39:01.940 lot more formal than it was?

00:39:04.440 I think, yeah, maybe it was more formal.

00:39:07.220 You know, in hindsight, looking back on that, like I would remember like he'd message me

00:39:10.500 and someone's always having a press conference and so, oh my God, you know, and I wish at

00:39:16.100 the time we would just sort of said, fine, like anybody can have a press conference if

00:39:19.740 you want.

00:39:20.640 But what we were concerned about was just making sure that our message stayed the same and

00:39:25.480 that we were, you know, peace, love, unity, freedom.

00:39:28.720 And, you know, you get some people behind a camera and that's not always what comes out

00:39:33.940 of their mouth.

00:39:34.580 So, so it became important to us.

00:39:36.420 And I'd known Benjamin before through Tom Quiggan.

00:39:41.580 So, and I thought he was very great on social media and I thought he was very articulate.

00:39:47.300 He had a little bit of a background in politics and, and was good in media.

00:39:52.540 So I tapped him on the shoulder to help with being a spokesperson.

00:39:57.180 I know that there were some people that were fairly skeptical of him.

00:40:01.240 Now I've known Benjamin for many years and had had only positive encounters with him until

00:40:05.260 a couple of months ago.

00:40:06.880 And there were other people that were a bit more suspect.

00:40:10.000 And I heard you defend him to those people as recently as at the George Jonas Freedom Dinner

00:40:15.940 where people were asking, you said, you know, you couldn't talk to him.

00:40:18.360 You weren't allowed to, but you said you, you trusted him with your life.

00:40:21.160 But he is since then kind of led this faction against what I would call the Tamara faction

00:40:28.700 in a way, people that are, are more loyal to you.

00:40:31.580 And, and, you know, they've been, you know, they've, they've gone their own way on the

00:40:34.560 legal stuff.

00:40:35.280 They've been very critical of the convoy leadership, especially of some of the, the justice center

00:40:39.680 lawyers like Keith Wilson and Eva Chipiak.

00:40:41.940 And where did that breakdown happen?

00:40:44.640 Because oftentimes you would expect these breakdowns to happen when the convoy is in Ottawa and

00:40:48.720 people have all these different beliefs on, on how to run things.

00:40:51.500 But it seemed like, I mean, just you and Benjamin, for starters, were very tight until months

00:40:57.120 later.

00:40:57.640 Yeah.

00:40:57.960 So what happened?

00:40:59.400 I don't know what happened.

00:41:01.060 And honestly, um, we were trying to get a call with him in the summer.

00:41:08.020 Um, I think it was before I was arrested or just after there was a really good working

00:41:13.400 relationship still going on there.

00:41:15.220 Um, well, I mean, between him and, and some of the other people, of course, I can't talk

00:41:18.960 to him.

00:41:19.280 So, uh, and we were trying to set up a call with him and he was trying to set up a call

00:41:22.940 with us and we just couldn't make it work.

00:41:24.600 And then finally we found the time to do that.

00:41:27.300 Um, so we could discuss the, the civil suit and, um, all of a sudden he ghosted us and

00:41:33.840 he didn't get back to us.

00:41:34.800 And then all of a sudden there's these weird things poking up on his videos and stuff.

00:41:39.700 And, and, um, when he came out and he was calling my friends, some very terrible names,

00:41:48.480 um, I just thought you're not the person that I thought you were because that's not how

00:41:54.600 no, that's not how we roll.

00:41:57.280 You know what I mean?

00:41:58.480 Uh, I don't think, I don't think there's any room in this movement for that.

00:42:01.940 And, um, unfortunately I think in any movement there's egos that get involved and, and then

00:42:09.500 people start butting heads.

00:42:11.640 So I don't know.

00:42:12.880 I mean, some of his theories are completely bizarre and, um, yeah.

00:42:19.100 Well, and other people that have kind of joined that little cause, I guess.

00:42:23.840 I mean, Chad E. Ross, who was the accountant and again, someone that you had a tremendous

00:42:27.980 amount of trust in, Chris Guerra, who we've spoken about, who did a tremendous amount of

00:42:31.680 work on the ground and has now become very critical of it.

00:42:35.220 And, and I don't know if people realize how this starts to undermine a lot of the unifying

00:42:43.480 work that the convoy does.

00:42:44.620 And I'm not saying people should shut up if they have legitimate grievances, but I, I'm

00:42:47.960 not even quite aware of what the grievances are.

00:42:50.520 Yeah, it is unfortunate.

00:42:53.780 And just to go back to what we were talking about earlier, you, you've not really been

00:42:56.640 able to set the record straight when people start making all of these accusations until

00:43:01.060 now.

00:43:01.300 No, no, exactly.

00:43:02.620 And, and for the most part, Andrew, I don't, I don't care what people say.

00:43:06.100 I mean, I had thick skin before and I definitely have very thick skin now and people are just

00:43:11.020 going to make up a bunch of wild stories anyways.

00:43:13.880 I mean, you know, I've heard, I've heard crazy stories about me.

00:43:18.600 I was going to go to Ottawa and try and install the Maverick party.

00:43:21.840 Like, I mean, it doesn't, some of it doesn't even make sense.

00:43:24.100 And, but you know what, it, it, it's hurtful when it comes from, from people that you trusted

00:43:29.760 and, you know, I've said it before and, and I mean it, I mean, a lot of us went there as

00:43:34.400 strangers and we turned into a family when we were there.

00:43:38.180 So, you know, obviously they have their beefs and they feel that they were wronged.

00:43:42.960 And I, I certainly hope that it all gets sorted out at the end of the day and everyone can

00:43:48.080 just get along and be happy and work together.

00:43:50.880 We're stronger together, you know.

00:43:52.520 The one thing that the Public Order Emergency Commission did incredibly well, I thought,

00:43:56.960 was reveal how effectively none of the money went to you or other convoy organizers.

00:44:03.460 They, they produced a report, which I thought was actually quite, quite, quite in depth and

00:44:08.480 detailed about the cryptocurrency donations, the GoFundMe, the Gibson Go, the e-transfers

00:44:14.440 and, and everything but the cash basically.

00:44:16.500 And, and the money essentially went to the government or it was refunded to donors.

00:44:21.920 Very, very little of it went to you.

00:44:24.640 And what went to you, I'm talking about as the custodian for the organization, not, not

00:44:28.100 to you personally.

00:44:28.800 But that's been, I think, probably one of the most vicious lines of attack I've seen

00:44:34.120 against you is that, you know, you're sitting off in the Bahamas with $10 million while, you

00:44:39.320 know, other people are doing this.

00:44:40.500 And, and you've, I mean, you've lost more than you've gained in this movement.

00:44:44.260 Yes, it's, it's, I've heard that I've got a Swiss bank account.

00:44:49.020 I've bought a property in Hull, Quebec.

00:44:50.900 Uh, I've left for Mexico, you know, it, and to me, that's actually disappointing because

00:44:59.820 it's a Google search.

00:45:00.960 There was a forensic audit done.

00:45:03.160 Like every penny is accounted for.

00:45:05.680 And if people really put in the effort, they could find that information out in about a

00:45:10.720 minute, you know.

00:45:12.160 I, I made the mistake in the early days of the convoy that a lot of other mainstream media

00:45:17.640 reporters did, which was thinking the money meant more than it actually did as far as

00:45:23.160 the movement.

00:45:23.840 And, and that was, I think the, the one thing that I found, because I remember even when

00:45:26.840 I was sitting down with, um, that informal press conference on the first weekend, I had,

00:45:30.700 you know, peppering you and, uh, Benjamin and Chris with, with questions about, you know,

00:45:34.280 how's this money going to be spent on that money.

00:45:36.060 But at the time, that was the way you could measure momentum.

00:45:40.300 We didn't know how many trucks there were.

00:45:41.600 We didn't know how many people, but we knew there was $10 million.

00:45:43.820 Yes.

00:45:44.300 So that was a thing.

00:45:45.080 But, but in the end, the money really was meaningless.

00:45:48.140 People spent their own money to get there.

00:45:50.220 If someone needed something, they just, you know, said it and it sort of just appeared.

00:45:53.800 Like I remember, uh, hearing, uh, you know, Dave live from the shed, you know, mentioned

00:45:57.580 needing a Starlink and some guys like be right back.

00:45:59.560 And then, you know, that afternoon there's a Starlink or something.

00:46:02.100 Exactly.

00:46:02.300 That was the story of it.

00:46:03.460 So the money, I mean, yes, people needed to buy their fuel and buy vehicle parts and,

00:46:07.700 and, you know, paper hotel rooms, but, but it was a reflection of the convoy support,

00:46:13.120 not the source of it.

00:46:15.080 Yeah.

00:46:15.460 And I said this to Keith, you know, pretty early on.

00:46:18.000 Keith Wilson, the lawyer.

00:46:19.040 Keith Wilson, yeah.

00:46:19.860 Um, it, it, we got there with no money.

00:46:23.160 We stayed with no money without that money.

00:46:26.060 And, and we got home without that money.

00:46:27.980 It was never about the money.

00:46:29.920 It was the statement behind the money.

00:46:31.500 The statement behind the money was that we had overwhelming support, which terrified Justin

00:46:39.300 Trudeau's liberals for sure.

00:46:40.900 Well, I think it terrified all of them.

00:46:42.140 You know what I mean?

00:46:43.160 Um, but it was, it was the sentiment behind it.

00:46:46.460 It was incredible.

00:46:47.640 People, they wish they could make that much money in donations when, you know.

00:46:52.560 Yeah, you are right about that.

00:46:54.540 And I think one of the things that I would point out as well is that anytime the government

00:46:58.600 or the police tried to crack down on something, more of it turned up.

00:47:02.780 So they tried to crack down on fuel and then everyone shows up with jerry cans.

00:47:06.080 They, uh, you know, try to crack down on money and then people just start showing up with

00:47:09.580 cash.

00:47:10.020 And I remember when I had said on my show once that I probably shouldn't tell this story,

00:47:13.380 but I had said on my show once that I was going back up to Ottawa to cover it.

00:47:16.740 And I had someone, you know, through this sort of broken telephone, get my number and

00:47:21.640 say, you know, can I give you $10,000 in cash to bring up there?

00:47:25.060 And I, I said, I just said, I can't be a part of that.

00:47:27.360 I'm a journalist.

00:47:28.240 I'm going up there to cover.

00:47:29.440 But, but that was the type of thing that people were trying to do.

00:47:33.740 And, and, you know, I, I've heard heartfelt stories from, from folks who got a $5 bill

00:47:40.360 shoved into their hand from someone where that $5 was needed and was, was not nothing.

00:47:46.480 And people in tears because, because they believe that the Freedom Convoy was their last

00:47:51.460 best hope in this country.

00:47:53.400 And I'm wondering if that gave you hope or if that kind of weighed on you in a way and

00:47:59.080 that almost made it like, just, oh my goodness, we have to, we have to win.

00:48:02.700 We have to get this.

00:48:04.380 Both.

00:48:05.380 Oh, I would say both.

00:48:06.760 Yeah.

00:48:07.100 It was there on the ground in Ottawa.

00:48:11.600 And you probably saw it too.

00:48:12.880 The most profound interactions are the, some of the hardest ones I, and I had were with

00:48:19.220 immigrants from Poland or Iran, you know, it was like the desperation that was in their

00:48:26.320 eyes because they've lived through this before.

00:48:29.320 They've seen all the signs, you know, and, and it was heartbreaking.

00:48:33.060 There were so many people that just thought this was it.

00:48:35.280 Like, this is, this is their last, you know, and like you said, people donated money or that

00:48:40.460 they couldn't afford to do.

00:48:41.600 But I think if they couldn't go to Ottawa or they couldn't get to a highway, everyone

00:48:46.000 just wanted to feel like they were a part of it.

00:48:48.160 So even if they didn't have 10 bucks, they donated 10 bucks because just to feel like

00:48:53.420 they were participating, you know, it was, it was so beautiful.

00:48:58.600 And the donations that people brought, I mean, you saw the streets, there was like every few

00:49:04.060 feet tables set up with, you know, food or mittens or toques or everything there.

00:49:10.560 There was everything there from lip chap to dog food, you know?

00:49:14.120 Yeah, and you also were seeing, you know, people in the Ottawa neighborhoods around this

00:49:21.540 a lot more supportive than the CBC version of what an Ottawa resident thinks.

00:49:25.940 And obviously there was disruption.

00:49:27.660 I mean, everyone's talked about it, the horns, but after the injunction, the horn issue largely

00:49:31.060 went away.

00:49:32.180 Obviously it was by design disruptive as a protest is supposed to be, but you also had Ottawa residents

00:49:37.460 that were opening up their homes saying, come use my shower, come use my, my bathroom.

00:49:42.220 And that was not uncommon, it sounded like.

00:49:44.280 It was, it was, it was common.

00:49:48.620 There was hardly, I only saw two people in Ottawa the whole time I was there that were

00:49:53.260 upset and they weren't rude to me.

00:49:54.660 I remember we were standing outside of the Sheridan and this guy was walking across the

00:49:58.700 street and he saw me and he just kept looking at me like he recognized me.

00:50:01.780 And then he starts walking, crossing the street, but away from me at an angle, which I thought

00:50:06.500 was funny.

00:50:06.960 And he yelled something and I said, oh, thank you.

00:50:09.400 And he goes, no, I don't support you.

00:50:11.180 And I said, that's okay.

00:50:13.080 Have a nice day, you know?

00:50:14.980 And then another lady, when we slipped outside of the Swiss, because that door opens right

00:50:18.820 onto the sidewalk, I bumped into her and I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry.

00:50:22.120 She's like, go home.

00:50:24.120 But everyone else from Ottawa that I dealt with was happy that we were there.

00:50:28.880 They said it was the most fun they've had there in years.

00:50:31.180 Like it's supposed to be the most boring city ever.

00:50:34.340 They felt like it was better than Canada Day.

00:50:37.660 They were bringing donations.

00:50:39.080 Federal government employees were hiding, covering their faces and coming down and bringing

00:50:45.360 food and blankets and firewood, you know?

00:50:48.180 We had a lot of support from them.

00:50:51.780 I actually talked to you at the POEC, a lady on the street who worked in the public safety

00:50:56.780 minister's office.

00:50:57.640 And I had only been there like a day or two and I ran into her and she was wishing me the

00:51:03.520 best of luck.

00:51:05.400 She was not too happy with her boss.

00:51:07.420 There was one chapter of the book that I thought, or section of the book that I thought was quite

00:51:13.160 interesting where you talk about a statement that you issued about the blockades in Cootes

00:51:18.000 and the border blockades.

00:51:19.200 And the line was effectively, you know, we don't claim credit for it, but, you know, we wish

00:51:24.600 them well, essentially.

00:51:25.920 And I know that this was a very pivotal moment, I think, in how people started to talk about

00:51:32.100 the convoy, even among people who had been sympathetic.

00:51:34.880 They say, you know, yeah, I support the truckers in Ottawa, but I don't support the border blockades.

00:51:39.240 You know, the biggest one was Cootes, but you also had Windsor and Emerson and Surrey for

00:51:42.860 a couple of days.

00:51:44.260 And I think everyone has established now that this was not being centrally managed or planned

00:51:48.320 in any way by you or by your team in Ottawa, but it's undeniably part of the same movement.

00:51:53.200 People were going there.

00:51:55.660 What's your thought on that now?

00:51:57.060 Do you support those actions?

00:51:59.960 I don't support illegal activity.

00:52:02.340 I wish they wouldn't have blocked the borders.

00:52:07.060 Well, I mean, and I don't even know if that's true.

00:52:09.300 That's what the media says.

00:52:10.300 Like, my parents went through the Cootes border and they said it was the RCMP that had blocked

00:52:13.880 it, not the truckers.

00:52:15.180 Let me just ask you what you mean by illegal activity, though, because, you know, you've

00:52:19.520 been charged with illegal activity and I know you claim you're innocent.

00:52:22.700 And even if you talk about traffic violations blocking up a city street, that still is illegal

00:52:27.680 in some way.

00:52:28.660 So at what point did the convoy go too far?

00:52:33.680 At what point was it a higher level of protest than you thought was acceptable?

00:52:37.780 Did it?

00:52:41.480 Well, I mean, the border blockades were definitely problematic.

00:52:46.040 And again, I mean, I totally get why they were angry.

00:52:49.760 Our mandate was to, well, yes, stay legal, you know, and there was definitely parking violations

00:52:57.140 there, but I didn't have a vehicle there.

00:52:59.820 Right?

00:53:00.520 So, and yeah, so I don't know.

00:53:04.040 I think they did the best that they could.

00:53:05.700 You know, it was so organic and it was so grassroots and we had to be very careful to be supportive

00:53:12.400 of their protest, but maybe not supportive of the illegal activity.

00:53:17.720 But, you know, in issuing that statement, you know, we didn't, we also weren't going to

00:53:21.500 hang them out to dry.

00:53:22.480 Like we, you know, we weren't going to throw them under the bus either.

00:53:25.160 So it was a, that was a really interesting situation to try to navigate.

00:53:30.740 Well, and it was difficult for, I know, the conservatives at the time, because even they

00:53:36.080 who had been after Aaron O'Toole was ousted and Candace Bergen came in, they had been relatively

00:53:40.960 supportive of the convoy.

00:53:42.820 And, but that was where they drew the line as well.

00:53:44.940 They said, you know, we support them, but not the blockades.

00:53:47.980 And several months ago, I interviewed Pierre Polyev and asked him and he had said something

00:53:52.460 very similar to, well, I'd prefer they didn't come with vehicles, was kind of one of the

00:53:56.540 things he said.

00:53:57.140 So I will ask about that.

00:53:58.800 If someone had come along, be it the police or the government or someone else and said,

00:54:03.220 okay, ditch the trucks and you can stay as long as you want, would that have been acceptable?

00:54:09.580 That's basically the deal that we had worked at with the city other than Wellington.

00:54:14.540 That would have been more than acceptable.

00:54:16.500 Absolutely.

00:54:17.180 So the trucks were the symbol, the trucks were how it started, but you just thought you needed

00:54:20.480 to be there.

00:54:20.980 Yeah, well, we wanted to be heard.

00:54:23.980 You know, that's what you're supposed to do when your government's not listening to you.

00:54:27.300 And I'm just so incredibly proud of everyone for, for staying like dignified and peaceful

00:54:33.860 and, you know, because let's face it, there was a lot of people that were angry.

00:54:39.140 I mean, that could have turned ugly.

00:54:41.340 You know, that the day that we went to try and move trucks right after we had the deal with

00:54:45.800 the city at Riddle Sussex there.

00:54:48.500 And then that large crowd came in and I just, I had that split second moment where I was

00:54:53.580 like, I could see how this could turn ugly in a split second.

00:54:58.020 And, and they didn't like to, they were just chanting freedom and singing O Canada, but

00:55:02.520 you know, they were agitated and you could really feel the, the energy in the air.

00:55:07.200 So obviously, you know, Keith and I became quite concerned for the safety of the officers and

00:55:11.340 just wanted to get them out of there.

00:55:13.640 And obviously we ended up shutting that operation down, but that was the whole, the whole point.

00:55:18.160 You know, going into Ottawa, we had planned to have the trucks outside of the city other

00:55:22.000 than some down on Wellington.

00:55:23.560 But I mean, they let us right in, right, right up there.

00:55:27.300 On that note, did you sense the tone change and the mood change from day one to closer to

00:55:34.220 the end of, of the people in the movement?

00:55:36.200 Um, I think towards the end, people were getting pretty tired.

00:55:41.260 I mean, for the most part, they were still all positive and happy.

00:55:45.920 There were still dance parties, even after the emergency act, there were dance parties.

00:55:49.620 But people were getting concerned and, you know, they were provoking us at every turn.

00:55:53.840 So, you know, with the first one being with the, the raid on Coventry, and then they were

00:55:58.680 going to start coming after the fuel, which was, you know, like dairy cans and stuff.

00:56:03.420 And then it was, they were going to come after your pets, and then they were threatening to

00:56:07.460 come and take children away.

00:56:09.520 And so that could have gotten ugly.

00:56:12.220 But when I got home from jail last winter, and I sat down on my couch and I watched the

00:56:19.560 footage, I bawled for two days like a baby, watching the, you know, the police action against

00:56:27.520 peaceful protesters and, and a lot of people that I knew and cared about in those videos.

00:56:32.500 And, um, I just thought it was so telling how I didn't even see one single Canadian lift

00:56:40.120 up the middle finger to any of those guys.

00:56:42.380 You know, I, I wasn't down there.

00:56:43.940 I was, I wasn't there.

00:56:44.820 I, I didn't hear anyone swearing at the police.

00:56:47.660 You know, they still, even in the face of that, stayed peaceful and, and, um, it's almost

00:56:56.780 hard to believe.

00:56:57.700 You had on one hand, a group of convoy protesters that were saying, we're not leaving.

00:57:04.820 And then on the other hand, you have a government that has shown no interest in hearing them

00:57:09.520 out, hearing you out.

00:57:10.880 How else did you think it was going to end?

00:57:13.260 Because I think it's a fair question that's asked by some critics when obviously this was

00:57:17.220 going to end with people either tiring up and going home or police coming in and removing

00:57:20.560 them.

00:57:20.980 I mean, how did you think it was going to end?

00:57:22.960 I don't know.

00:57:25.460 I, I don't know.

00:57:26.800 I, I left Medicine Hat not knowing when I was going to be back.

00:57:30.620 I mean, obviously in the back of my head, I thought I had ideas, you know, like in the

00:57:36.360 back of my head, I thought, wow, if we can raise $20,000, that's, that's amazing.

00:57:40.760 In the back of my head, I thought, well, you know, we'll probably be there for a week,

00:57:45.700 you know, um, two or the weekend is laughable.

00:57:49.240 I can't believe they think that we were going to drive five days across the country, stay

00:57:53.720 two days, stay for two days and drive home.

00:57:56.040 So I don't know, you know, that's a hard question for me to answer because, and of course, driving

00:58:02.700 across Canada and hearing all these stories, I mean, that really stiffened our resolve,

00:58:07.580 you know, that we wanted to be heard.

00:58:09.140 And, and, and I believed, I guess, naively that somebody would come and talk to us.

00:58:16.300 And so when we, when we struck that deal with the city of Ottawa, um, I was so happy because

00:58:23.220 I thought step one, here's a step, this is positive.

00:58:26.780 Well, it would have been recognition.

00:58:28.280 I mean, the first time that, I mean, yes, it's the mayor of Ottawa, not a hugely important

00:58:31.440 person, but it would have been recognition by an official that you were a group.

00:58:36.080 Yes.

00:58:36.760 And we were trying so hard, like I said, we were peaceful and I was always advocating for

00:58:40.580 peace and love and unity and respecting the police and following the law.

00:58:44.840 So, you know, I don't, I don't know what they were so scared of.

00:58:48.820 You know, I, I've heard you and others say, you know, if they had just come out and spoken

00:58:52.960 to us, if, you know, Justin Trudeau or someone had just come out, but I, I'm none of us ever

00:58:57.980 wanted to talk to Justin.

00:58:58.860 Well, I think that's a fair, that's a fair, fair point.

00:59:01.600 But, but let's say that some federal government official had come out.

00:59:05.320 I don't think it would have made a difference, even if they had sat down and said, I'll hear

00:59:08.540 you, if they weren't prepared to act.

00:59:10.280 So being heard wasn't just what you were after, was it?

00:59:14.320 Right.

00:59:14.700 Well, no, we wanted the mandates lifted.

00:59:16.760 We wanted everything lifted.

00:59:17.880 Because you can be very polite to someone and hear them out and nod along and then go

00:59:20.740 back in.

00:59:21.340 Yeah, that's right.

00:59:22.340 And I forget who it was at the commission that had said, you know, they didn't want to

00:59:27.620 just be heard.

00:59:28.320 They wanted to be obeyed.

00:59:29.320 But is there not a bit of truth to that?

00:59:33.140 Well, I don't know.

00:59:34.160 I don't really like the word obey.

00:59:35.680 I mean, I think there's, I don't think there's anything wrong with Canadians wanting to be

00:59:40.720 listened to.

00:59:41.560 No, I, if I, if I were to give you the answer there, I, what I would have loved for them

00:59:44.900 to have said is we wanted them to realize they were wrong.

00:59:48.180 Yes, that's right.

00:59:49.380 Or, you know, we, even if they would have said, okay, you've proved your point.

00:59:53.060 So, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll get a handful of, vet us.

00:59:56.700 Well, we had already been profiled.

00:59:58.120 I mean, we already knew everything about us, vet us and put together a little committee

01:00:02.360 and we can continue these talks later, later or, or anything, but they didn't do anything,

01:00:07.740 nothing.

01:00:09.360 And yes, they, they just, you know, called us terrible names and, and, um, but, but that's

01:00:15.060 the really, one of the great things about this whole thing was that Canadians owned it.

01:00:20.160 I mean, as he started calling us names and, and then the, you know, the unacceptable fringe

01:00:25.060 and we owned it.

01:00:25.840 And then the jerry can thing, right?

01:00:27.720 I mean, he kept throwing this stuff at us and nothing was sticking and we were just

01:00:31.940 taking that back and throwing it right back in his face.

01:00:35.140 You know, it was, uh, it was, um, it was pretty funny.

01:00:39.340 It has also birthed a movement in Canada that has outlasted the Freedom Convoy.

01:00:44.560 I mean, that summer of 2022, there were freedom rallies everywhere.

01:00:48.780 There were these little, you know, mini convoys.

01:00:51.380 Canada Day was being canceled by the media, but convoy folks were saying we're, we're having

01:00:55.100 Canada Day, uh, even now there are all these little groups and associations and organizations

01:00:59.820 and Facebook pages that have all sort of popped up that were motivated by, or, or were the

01:01:05.120 products of people that were united by this thing.

01:01:08.060 And, and when you look around, one thing that strikes me is that there are some people

01:01:11.880 that don't want to move on from the COVID era on both sides.

01:01:14.160 I think, you know, there are the, you know, the people that, you know, want us to mask

01:01:17.100 up for the, until the end of time, but there are also people, it seems like that want to

01:01:21.040 keep the convoy alive when the thing that they were protesting has largely gone.

01:01:26.800 And I'm curious what you think the, the legacy of this should be.

01:01:31.980 I think this was a great awakening.

01:01:34.580 I think a lot of people in Canada knew that we were in trouble, uh, politically, um, economically.

01:01:41.800 Uh, and I think that what the convoy did was actually showed them how bad it really is or,

01:01:48.800 or, or, or gave them a bit of more insight into the bigger picture.

01:01:52.040 Um, cause I don't know if anyone knows how bad it is.

01:01:54.480 If they're just admitting that China is in, you know, influencing our politics, then how bad

01:01:58.700 is it really?

01:01:59.280 Like, what aren't they telling us?

01:02:00.560 Right.

01:02:00.780 Uh, that's my, that's my, uh, take on politics these days anyways, but I think the legacy of

01:02:08.880 the freedom convoy is the unity and it is the humanity and the fundamental beauty of what

01:02:16.240 makes us great.

01:02:18.000 Canadians are great people.

01:02:19.720 You know, we couldn't have survived here if we didn't look after each other and help our

01:02:24.340 neighbors and we couldn't have, you know, and, and that's to me what, what the legacy should

01:02:29.980 be just the, the, the humanity that, that came as a result of it.

01:02:37.440 Looking back on it, what would you say was something you would do differently tactically

01:02:43.020 or, or organizationally, if anything?

01:02:45.420 Well, I brought more trucks.

01:02:47.620 Just kidding.

01:02:49.420 Um, I would have, I think if I could do one thing different, I would have had a exit plan

01:02:55.600 in place before we left some kind of an idea as to what we were going to do or to present

01:03:01.400 when we got there.

01:03:02.200 What, what would that look like?

01:03:04.340 Well, basically, you know, now basically what exactly what we showed, I mean, we, we did

01:03:08.900 our, our live there with our list, um, you know, and the mandates, uh, federal mandates,

01:03:13.360 provincial mandates.

01:03:14.000 Let's have a investigation, like an actual real investigation, not just Justin Trudeau's

01:03:19.440 friends.

01:03:20.140 Yes.

01:03:20.580 You know, investigating, um, so we had that whole list, which is all things that, that,

01:03:24.940 you know, we wanted to see happen.

01:03:27.300 And, um, again, I think if we would have had something like that drafted before, because

01:03:32.920 the problem was once we got there and we were beginning to draft it, it was never the right

01:03:36.420 time to release it.

01:03:38.220 Like Aaron O'Toole gets kicked out of, or resigns or whatever.

01:03:43.800 And we, you know, we were going to try and release it that day.

01:03:46.140 So of course that's a big news thing.

01:03:47.560 So it just seemed like every time we planned to release this, um, something else came up

01:03:52.300 and we were advised against it.

01:03:53.940 And, um, so I think if we could have gotten that out maybe sooner, we would have a either

01:04:00.180 known that they were willing to negotiate with us or not, you know, cause they would

01:04:03.840 have had, you know, something more concrete.

01:04:06.760 Um, or if we were going to have to stay for a while.

01:04:10.320 The one thing that always annoyed me is, is, you know, whenever these little distractions

01:04:15.100 come up, like the memorandum of understanding or Pat King, people will say, well, well,

01:04:19.420 why didn't they denounce it?

01:04:20.460 They did.

01:04:20.960 Why didn't they denounce him?

01:04:21.900 They did.

01:04:22.280 Why?

01:04:22.680 So, so all of these things that you were doing, uh, that, you know, other people would

01:04:27.760 say, yes, they should do, were, were not really being received or communicated the same

01:04:31.480 way the outrage was, you know, the, the Terry Fox statue, the arson that wasn't.

01:04:35.540 And so I think that there's a lot of truth to the idea that you were never going to be

01:04:43.700 able to get your message through the mainstream media, which is why, I mean, selfishly on

01:04:48.160 my part, I think one of the real victories of the convoy was the rise of independent

01:04:51.560 media and the awakening of a lot of media consumers and how the mainstream media had

01:04:56.820 a narrative.

01:04:57.560 And, and, you know, the number of people that I've had reach out to me in February

01:05:01.020 of 2022 that have said, I canceled my Globe and Mail subscription.

01:05:04.200 I donate to True North now.

01:05:05.680 I mean, that, that was happening more times than I could count.

01:05:08.360 So there was something in people seeing, you know, for themselves on the ground or on their

01:05:13.700 friends' live streams, and then seeing the CBC Global CTV version of the convoy and being

01:05:18.480 like, these are just two different events.

01:05:20.360 Yeah.

01:05:20.600 Which was unbelievable.

01:05:22.520 Thank goodness.

01:05:24.380 Thank goodness for independent journalists and citizen journalists.

01:05:27.520 Like, you know, if this wouldn't have been the age of the cell phone, the whole

01:05:30.760 entire country would probably believe what they were saying.

01:05:33.080 Yeah.

01:05:33.240 You know, but, you know, thanks to, to, to people like you and Rupa, you know, you guys

01:05:37.840 were down, the Rupa was down there the first day, like she was, where's.

01:05:40.560 Every day Rupa was, yeah.

01:05:41.620 Yeah, exactly.

01:05:42.320 And talking to people, um, Keen Bexty was there, um, uh, Bright Light News, like all these

01:05:48.740 independent rebels.

01:05:49.680 Well, people, people I had never heard of that were there, that, that I've, you know,

01:05:52.800 now I've, I follow that, that had just popped up or, or were smaller.

01:05:56.600 And then this became this thing that they did a tremendous amount of cover.

01:06:00.120 That Bright Light was one I'd never heard of.

01:06:01.480 But then you look at the convoy and there they are.

01:06:03.480 And even look at Dave's story, like the life from the shed.

01:06:05.380 Yes, yes.

01:06:05.800 I mean, he just shows up, but there's a shed there.

01:06:07.940 And I mean, he, he just.

01:06:09.800 I don't even think he packed, if I recall.

01:06:11.600 I don't know.

01:06:11.800 He literally just went there.

01:06:12.860 He just left.

01:06:13.280 Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

01:06:14.580 Which a lot of people did.

01:06:15.800 Yeah.

01:06:16.520 Like, I talked to people from BC that were just going to go for a couple hours and

01:06:19.560 ended up following it all the way to Ottawa, right?

01:06:21.760 Crazy.

01:06:22.440 So it was, yeah, it was crazy.

01:06:24.280 It was, it was just amazing.

01:06:26.560 So I think I know the answer to this, but I think you need to say it in your own words

01:06:30.880 for people.

01:06:31.400 Do you have any regrets?

01:06:32.680 No.

01:06:34.100 After everything you went through, why not?

01:06:35.640 Well, it really hit me over the Christmas holidays and I had bought my seven-year-old

01:06:43.260 grandson a sled because we have a beautiful toboggan hill in Minnesota.

01:06:46.740 And I picked him up and we went, we went to the toboggan hill and, you know, we're climbing

01:06:50.460 up and we get halfway up one of our runs and I stopped because I'm old.

01:06:55.880 I'm a grandma.

01:06:56.880 So, but, you know, we stopped halfway up this hill and I looked and, you know, there's

01:07:00.360 families laughing, little kids and teenagers, groups of teenagers.

01:07:05.640 And just kids, they're just the smiles and the happiness.

01:07:09.880 And I had that conscious thought that I would not trade that one nanosecond for any time

01:07:16.240 in jail.

01:07:16.780 I would do it again in a second just to have that moment, you know?

01:07:20.740 How has it been on your own family?

01:07:22.740 I mean, I've met your husband.

01:07:24.000 He was probably one of the most patient men in Canada when all this was going on.

01:07:28.160 You know, you left and he was originally at home and didn't come until the lawyers came.

01:07:32.540 I know he's been by your side since.

01:07:34.320 I know you've got children as well.

01:07:36.980 And I don't know where they are politically on this, but, you know, they've got their

01:07:39.920 own friends that may not be with you politically.

01:07:41.980 So how has that been for you to navigate?

01:07:44.520 It's been pretty good.

01:07:45.580 My kids are very supportive.

01:07:47.000 They're not very political.

01:07:48.880 If anything, my oldest is the opposite.

01:07:51.980 She's quite left-leaning.

01:07:53.280 But she supports me.

01:07:55.620 She may not support what we did, all of it, but she supports me.

01:07:59.600 And so, you know, we just agree to disagree and we don't get too heavy into political discussion.

01:08:04.540 We just know where the line is, where we can get away with, you know, poking jabs at each

01:08:08.460 other.

01:08:08.880 But, and my middle daughter is in Manitoba.

01:08:12.400 She's not very political at all, but she's very proud of what we did.

01:08:17.880 She's very happy.

01:08:18.800 And then my youngest is, you know, she's so young and she supports what we did.

01:08:23.800 But she went to school in Ottawa last year and it was, we had the situation.

01:08:29.700 She was moving to Ottawa to go to school last summer and I kept saying, well, I want to

01:08:33.060 come.

01:08:33.340 I'll travel with you.

01:08:34.040 I don't want you driving by yourself.

01:08:35.280 And she kept kind of pushing me off and brushing me off and blowing me off.

01:08:40.040 Just to interject there, you actually had to get special permission from the court to

01:08:43.780 be allowed to bring her.

01:08:44.960 To go into Ontario.

01:08:46.220 I was banned from Ontario.

01:08:49.060 So, and I started to kind of get her feelings because she wasn't giving me any straight answers.

01:08:54.460 And, you know, she's, of course, my daughter.

01:08:56.160 I want to just get her moved in school.

01:08:58.080 And it hit me that she was worried to be seen with me.

01:09:02.040 And, which I get, like, I understand that.

01:09:07.080 But what a moment of realization, you know, that that's where we're at now.

01:09:12.640 And I didn't want her to go to Ottawa and get cancelled.

01:09:15.180 And, you know, so I'm very grateful that I have a different last name as my daughters

01:09:19.300 because, you know, I think that spared them some ugliness.

01:09:23.040 You know, you've seen it on Twitter.

01:09:25.100 It can get, people can be ugly.

01:09:27.540 So I think, but my family overall is incredibly supportive.

01:09:31.820 My parents are fantastic.

01:09:34.180 I had the funniest moment in Rutgers with my grandson the other day because we go in there.

01:09:39.780 And, of course, people sort of coming in and they're coming over and taking selfies

01:09:43.480 and asking me questions and talking to me.

01:09:45.680 And poor little Zayden's like, what is going on?

01:09:48.780 You know?

01:09:49.300 So I had to kind of explain to him that people know who I am now.

01:09:54.220 So let me ask just in closing here, and I should say, first off, one of the more amusing

01:10:01.500 little anecdotes you share in the book is that when you went to jail, one of the first things

01:10:06.160 they did was offer you a vaccine, which I think probably is a sign of the times in more ways

01:10:11.420 than one.

01:10:11.880 But you have a trial coming up in September.

01:10:15.460 You and Chris Barber are co-accused on this, and currently the Crown has shown no sign of

01:10:21.120 relenting on this.

01:10:22.800 Are you expecting to go back to jail?

01:10:25.820 Are you expecting to be convicted?

01:10:27.740 Are you going in with that same hope you had going into the convoy that truth will prevail?

01:10:32.760 I think there's always hope.

01:10:36.060 I don't know what to expect anymore.

01:10:37.980 We don't have a justice system in Canada, Andrew.

01:10:40.000 We have a legal system.

01:10:42.140 Because if there was any justice, Chris and I wouldn't be in this situation.

01:10:46.540 But so I don't know what to expect.

01:10:49.380 I'm hopeful.

01:10:50.640 I feel like the truth will prevail, but there's always that chance, you know?

01:10:56.940 I think we have a really good judge who's got a good head on her shoulders.

01:11:01.620 And so I guess we'll see.

01:11:05.100 It's going by fast, but there's still a lot of time between now and September.

01:11:09.000 So who knows?

01:11:09.660 They could even get dropped before then.

01:11:11.300 We just, I don't know.

01:11:12.680 We have a very emotionally vested and passionate Crown prosecutor, though, who would like to

01:11:18.420 see me rot in jail, which is funny.

01:11:23.180 Do you still have a bit of disbelief about that?

01:11:26.400 You know, just looking back at what you did and how that disproportionate Crown,

01:11:31.620 has taken it?

01:11:33.660 Well, every time I read my book, I mean, and I relive it again, you know, it's, it's,

01:11:39.160 I just get so frustrated and I feel angry and almost incredulous.

01:11:44.240 Like, who are you?

01:11:46.660 You want 10 years in jail for a mischief charge, an alleged mischief charge?

01:11:52.780 Like, you know, the, the just, justice Harris, justice of the peace Harris was trying to run

01:11:59.780 analogies with firearms charges.

01:12:01.540 Like, yeah.

01:12:03.300 And, and even at the length of our trial, I mean, murder trials sometimes aren't 16 days.

01:12:09.540 Rape trials aren't 16 days for mischief.

01:12:13.080 Wow.

01:12:13.780 Well, I know you never set out to be a leader, but you certainly were one and are one.

01:12:17.900 And I thank you so much for telling the story.

01:12:20.200 The book is Hold the Line by Tamara Leach.

01:12:22.940 And it's a delight that we've got to do this finally.

01:12:24.620 Yes, thank you.

01:12:25.560 Thanks for having me.

01:12:26.360 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

01:12:28.820 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 21, 2023

Tamara Lich speaks out

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