Juno News - The case against a ceasefire in Gaza

00:00:00.000 Nevertheless, I want to pivot here ever so slightly to our discussion we had yesterday

00:00:14.380 on Israel. And I will say time and time again, I am a supporter of Israel and of the Jewish

00:00:20.200 people, and I have been heartbroken to see all of the displays that have masqueraded as

00:00:26.600 normal political protest. People storming into a Jewish-owned restaurant in Toronto, people who

00:00:33.260 are protesting outside literally a Jewish daycare in Toronto, not to mention the vile and very often 1.00

00:00:40.540 anti-Semitic rhetoric we hear from these people. But oftentimes things are not explicitly anti-Semitic

00:00:46.900 or anti-Israel. They are cloaked in language that may sound entirely normal. One of these is a word

00:00:52.720 that sounds on the surface to be wonderful, which is a ceasefire. People, I think, understandably

00:00:58.140 associate a ceasefire with peace, two belligerents in a war that agree for a time or perhaps permanently

00:01:04.360 to lay down arms and perhaps work out some agreement in the meantime to end conflict. This is something

00:01:10.960 that, again, on the surface sounds lovely, but in the context here is completely devoid of sense and

00:01:17.820 understanding of history and I would say is devoid of justice. Hamas struck a terrible blow against

00:01:24.400 Israel more than two weeks ago. There are still more than 200 hostages who are being held captive

00:01:29.600 by Hamas. You've had 1,500 innocent lives lost to this conflict. Israel has a right to defend itself 0.84

00:01:38.520 and Israel, which has been living under the perpetual threat by Hamas for years, has understandably the

00:01:45.320 desire to obliterate Hamas, which is under any interpretation of international law its right. 0.99

00:01:51.940 Why then do we see so many people, including Liberal members of Parliament, New Democratic members of

00:01:56.780 Parliament, many people from the left, calling for a quote-unquote ceasefire? I want to welcome to the

00:02:03.980 show Joe Roberts, who is a progressive voice, a fantastic writer and podcaster. He is the chair of

00:02:10.520 JSpace Canada and joins me now. Joe, it's good to talk to you again. Thanks for coming on today.

00:02:16.800 Hey, thanks for having me, Andrew. Appreciate it.

00:02:18.800 Now, I'm not trying to wedge you on your colleagues on the left with whom you get along on, you know,

00:02:24.020 probably 90, 95% of issues, but I know it's been a very challenging time in the last couple of weeks.

00:02:31.000 And I was just wondering, first off, if you could just explain how that's been, because I know that

00:02:35.080 other people I've spoken to of your political persuasion have said they've, you know, learned that some of

00:02:39.800 their friends were not actually their friends. No, it's been sobering. I mean, I think, look,

00:02:44.740 we saw violence and brutality on October 7th. That's incomprehensible. You can't even put words

00:02:50.480 around it to make it make any sense. And the response from some of our allies on the left has

00:02:56.220 been shameful, I think is the best word for it. I mean, really, truly hurtful. People that we've made

00:03:02.880 allyship with on racial justice, on social justice, on economic justice, we've stood by,

00:03:09.980 we've been supportive of their efforts. When they were threatened, we just didn't see the same. Now,

00:03:16.140 I want to be really clear. It's not everybody. It's a fragment of the left, but it has been a

00:03:20.920 really problematic thing. I mean, and the, you know, the vitriol, the anger, the interlacing of

00:03:29.680 anti-Semitism is problematic. All around, it's been a real challenge.

00:03:34.040 When we look at that word ceasefire, it's to me a bit of, I mean, we hear oftentimes from people,

00:03:40.120 dog whistle as the term, that something can be, you know, offensive without intending to be. And I

00:03:45.780 fear that ceasefire calls are like that because when someone says we need a ceasefire, what they're

00:03:51.200 in fact saying is that Israel has no right to defend itself and no justification to defend itself.

00:03:57.040 And you had a great piece in the National Post about this. I was wondering if you could explain

00:04:01.020 how you've approached this and these calls for a ceasefire. Apparently he was not just staring

00:04:08.580 intently. His camera has frozen. We'll get Joe Roberts back on the program in a moment. Let me,

00:04:14.960 while we're doing that, play this clip. This was a call to Pierre Polyev that was put to him by a

00:04:20.180 CP24 reporter on Saturday about this.

00:04:24.160 Did you tell your MPs not to sign this or symbolically do you think it would have,

00:04:28.320 obviously you can't force a terrorist organization, an organization that's been declared a terrorist

00:04:32.400 organization for decades now in this country to abide by it. But symbolically, do you think it would

00:04:36.980 have made a difference?

00:04:38.760 What?

00:04:39.200 To sign this letter, at least to say the Americans have encouraged and they've had discussions with

00:04:45.440 Netanyahu to, you know, undertake the most peaceful approach possible in this situation, while also

00:04:51.520 saying Israel has the right to defend itself, which the prime minister here has said on several

00:04:55.480 occasions since this all unfolded, this horrific event two weeks ago.

00:04:59.720 So what is your question?

00:05:00.920 Symbolically, would it have, you know, maybe been a gesture to have conservative MPs join

00:05:07.460 liberals and new Democrats and Greens and saying, let's call for a ceasefire?

00:05:12.580 It would have been a gesture to Hamas to, it would encourage Hamas to become even more violent 0.87

00:05:18.840 and vicious. Obviously, we, our heart breaks for every lost Israeli and Palestinian innocent life. 0.86

00:05:27.680 The blame rests entirely with Hamas and their state sponsors in Tehran, the Iranian government,

00:05:34.640 which help orchestrate this attack. We have to defeat the terrorism in order to get to a peaceful

00:05:41.580 two states, two state solution that will allow Israelis to continue to have a Jewish state and 0.61

00:05:47.860 Palestinians to have an independent state of their own.

00:05:51.520 I shared that clip with you to set up some of the reaction to it. Now, admittedly, a lot of this may

00:05:57.480 be colored more by people that dislike Pierre Polyev than people who dislike Israel. But there was

00:06:02.240 this one tweet from a critic of Polyev's who says that when you reject this ceasefire premise,

00:06:10.000 it's because you're not understanding world peace. So this idea that a ceasefire and peace are

00:06:15.720 equivalent. And we have Joe Roberts back from JSpace Canada. Joe, I don't know how much of my previous

00:06:23.120 question to you, you heard, but basically is a call for a ceasefire, a dog whistle to use that term

00:06:28.920 from, from people that are basically saying Israel does not have the right to fight back when it's

00:06:32.820 attacked. Look, I think there's a misconception about what a ceasefire is in this case, right? And

00:06:38.320 what is the long-term goal? We've been in this situation in Gaza five times, six times since the

00:06:44.740 disengagement from Gaza back in 2005. What does that mean? That means we've had these conflicts

00:06:50.440 every year, every other year. There's a, you know, there's been this phrase used mowing the lawn.

00:06:55.560 It costs civilian lives. It costs Israeli lives. It costs lots of money and security. It's not,

00:07:01.800 it's not a good situation. It's not sustainable. The status quo is not working. And so I think

00:07:05.480 there's a realization across the board, both in Israel, the reality, they recognize that the

00:07:11.360 citizenry demands a response, that this doesn't work, that this 1400 deaths and this brutality is not

00:07:17.340 acceptable and they must act. And I think there's a realization that there is no path to peace

00:07:22.300 without a fundamental change to the status quo, right? And so that means Hamas must be removed. 0.67

00:07:29.760 It can no longer govern Gaza so that it can rebuild and do this again in a couple of years. So we'll be 0.99

00:07:35.700 right back in the same place that we are today. And in the, in the long run, we're going to have more

00:07:40.120 death and more violence. So the goal here is the ceasefire is a pause. It's saying we're going to push a

00:07:44.940 pause right now and come back to this violence over and over again, never break the cycle. And when I think

00:07:50.680 what we're advocating for is to say, actually, you know, this needs to be seen through. Hamas must be 0.90

00:07:55.140 removed. The Palestinian people are not the enemy here. Hamas is the enemy. Remove Hamas. And then we can 0.98

00:08:00.280 actually start a political solution to this conflict through a two-state solution, which is the only real way

00:08:05.860 we'll ever end this cycle of violence.

00:08:08.160 Yeah, I think that's an important point. And I often believe that, well, not often, I think it's a pretty

00:08:13.180 clear-cut fact at this point that people who are very critical of Israel view Israel as being the

00:08:18.580 impediment to a two-state solution when, in fact, oftentimes it's the Palestinian activists who want

00:08:24.020 a one-state solution, which is an entire Palestinian state.

00:08:28.840 Well, I mean, look, let's be clear about what a one-state solution means. It means the erasure of a

00:08:33.320 Jewish state. It means the erasure of the Palestinian national aspiration, which they've worked very hard to

00:08:39.960 legitimize over the last 75 years. They don't want it, frankly. No one that would live under a

00:08:45.500 one-state solution would want that, right? 71% of Palestinians reject a one-state solution. 81%

00:08:51.800 of Israelis reject a one-state solution. There's no path forward here without two states. You know,

00:08:56.820 there was a call yesterday between the Palestinian Authority ambassador to the European Union and some

00:09:01.820 members of the EU, and someone said, well, what about confederation, which is another word for a

00:09:07.360 one-state reality? And he said, look, we reject this. I've never seen someone so angry, right? He

00:09:12.880 said, we reject this. Why would you tell us that we don't deserve our own state? So the reality is it

00:09:18.420 has to be a solution. Hamas is the impediment to that two states, right? That is, you cannot deal 0.98

00:09:23.260 with a terrorist organization. Everyone knows this. You have to get rid of Hamas, and we'll move 0.90

00:09:28.160 towards two states. It's the only long-term solution here. The one thing I also find jarring about a lot of

00:09:34.160 these calls for ceasefire is that they're not accompanied by a call to release hostages.

00:09:39.160 Sometimes they are, but oftentimes they're not. They're just unqualified. Israel must stop its 0.98

00:09:44.320 attack. Israel must stop its counter-offensive. Again, I understand the impotence, right? I mentioned 0.66

00:09:50.700 this in the piece. They're suffering. Human lives are being lost. There's no question about that. It's a

00:09:56.560 horrible tragedy, no matter who they are. On either side, Israeli, Palestinian, it doesn't matter. 1.00

00:10:00.860 And we have an obligation to make sure that this war is waged in a humane way. That means

00:10:05.640 humanitarian aid continuously going into Gaza. That means we would advocate for the restoring

00:10:11.840 of electricity and water to Gaza. We would advocate for fuel to be brought in for the hospitals,

00:10:18.920 recognizing there are challenges with humanitarian aid, but still, I think it is a moral and humane

00:10:23.760 thing to do. I think what the challenge here is when people don't see the humanity of both sides

00:10:30.480 of this conflict, which it is easy to do when you are stuck in an echo chamber in the West where you

00:10:37.600 have no stakes in this, the people that are real lives on the ground don't matter to you.

00:10:43.020 It's easy to say, I'm picking a team. This isn't a team sport. These are human beings. And the reality

00:10:48.980 of this place is there are 7 million Israelis. There are 5 million Palestinians. Nobody's going 1.00

00:10:53.640 anywhere. We have to share this place. We have to share this land. And we have to learn how to do

00:10:57.960 that together. Let me just ask you then, Joe, about a little bit of the way forward here insofar as you

00:11:05.600 and I are able to put our heads together and solve this conflict in the next couple of minutes. But

00:11:10.000 where is the way forward? Because right now, the Palestinian Authority is certainly a much 1.00

00:11:17.740 better force than Hamas, but there is a legitimacy problem there that's often raised. And oftentimes,

00:11:24.600 I think it's raised by people who are more sympathetic to Hamas. But again, Abbas has stayed

00:11:29.740 there for far longer than he was elected. But the counterpoint to that is that if elections were held,

00:11:35.180 it's very possible that Hamas would end up becoming more powerful. So how do you go forward

00:11:40.840 when even the Palestinian cause, such as it is, isn't unified under one main voice and one main

00:11:46.840 advocate? Yeah, I mean, look, this is a problem. And let's be clear, you know, there has been

00:11:52.240 no movement on peace building for the last 15 years. We've had, frankly, we've had extremists on both

00:11:58.280 sides, extremist leadership in Israel. We've had extremist leadership in the West Bank of the

00:12:04.200 Palestinian Authority who've said, status quo is good for me. If it works for me, it works for 0.92

00:12:08.620 everybody. Well, we've seen that that doesn't work. It actually breaks down and causes horrible

00:12:11.820 violence. So, you know, there's a lot of consternation about the Palestinian Authority.

00:12:16.460 And I agree. They have a legitimacy problem among their own people. Abbas is 88 years old. He's a

00:12:21.540 chain smoker. You know, he's not doing great. I don't think he's going to be the leader to move

00:12:26.340 Palestinian people forward. And whenever reunification of Gaza comes, which it has to come,

00:12:30.760 you can't have a two-state solution with a separate government in the West Bank from Gaza.

00:12:37.040 It will have to be under a Palestinian Authority. Now, what does that mean? I mean, 0.60

00:12:39.920 the Palestinian Authority has been undermined, defunded, challenged, I think limited in its

00:12:46.580 abilities somewhat by the Israelis to make sure that they wouldn't become a threat. But I think we 1.00

00:12:52.160 also look at the good things that the Palestinian Authority does. The Palestinian Authority has been

00:12:55.140 committed to the two-state solution along 1967 borders since 1987 when it was founded.

00:13:00.760 The Palestinian Authority has rejected violence, right? You don't see violence being done in the

00:13:06.440 name of the Palestinian Authority. You don't see a third intifada that's called by Abbas.

00:13:12.120 They recognize a path forward as two states. They also recognize Hamas is a dangerous and violent

00:13:17.140 extremist group that cannot be allowed to take root in the West Bank like they did in Gaza. And when

00:13:21.720 they, let's remember, when Hamas took power in Gaza, they threw people off roofs. They executed 700

00:13:27.220 Palestinians to take power. All of them were affiliated with the Palestinian Authority and

00:13:31.180 Fatah, the faction that controls the Palestinian Authority that Abbas is a part of. So I think

00:13:36.480 there's a lot of alignment here. What we're going to have to do, and it's going to take U.S. leadership,

00:13:42.240 Canadian partnership, and our allies are going to have to come together and have a plan. How do we

00:13:47.440 actually strengthen the Palestinian Authority? How do we train them? How do we arm them so that they can 1.00

00:13:52.400 defend themselves and also govern Gaza? It's not going to happen today. Even when Israel leaves,

00:13:59.140 there's going to have to be some kind of transitional authority. But I think that the

00:14:02.480 long-term solution, without the Palestinian Authority being in Gaza and a reunification,

00:14:06.500 there's just no pathway to peace. Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:14:10.340 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - October 30, 2023

The case against a ceasefire in Gaza

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