Juno News - May 04, 2023


The cost of speaking out as a teacher (Ft. Chanel Pfahl)


Episode Stats

Length

34 minutes

Words per Minute

166.29155

Word Count

5,689

Sentence Count

1


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 hi everybody welcome to the Rupa Subramanya show I am Rupa Subramanya I hope you're all
00:00:22.480 doing well wherever you're tuning in from today I'm joined by Chanel foul she was a teacher in
00:00:29.240 the Ontario public school system who was suspended two years ago for writing a Facebook post in a
00:00:35.780 private group criticizing the teaching of critical race theory in schools it's my privilege to welcome
00:00:42.200 Chanel to the show Chanel welcome to the show it's a real pleasure to have you here with me you
00:00:49.760 know for people who don't know your story could you tell us exactly what happened the sequence of
00:00:54.920 events that led to your suspension as a school teacher here in Ontario and what is the current
00:01:02.780 state of affairs are you still suspended and now able to get go back to teaching hi Rupa thanks for
00:01:09.680 having me on yeah I'll try to sum it up as quickly as I can there's been a lot of different investigations
00:01:15.860 that have happened over the last two three years now so it all started in February 2021 I had put
00:01:23.060 my opinion on critical race theory in a private group for Ontario teachers I can read you what
00:01:31.340 I said if you like yeah okay so so the whole comment what I said I have it right here so I said kids
00:01:40.280 aren't in school to be indoctrinated with critical race theory schools should be nonpartisan focus on
00:01:45.920 modeling kindness to everyone and speak out against any form of discrimination you see this includes the
00:01:52.880 discrimination brought on by anti-racist movements ie saying that all white people are racist etc in
00:02:00.680 some places example Britain it is now illegal to teach CRT without offering a balanced opposing view so that
00:02:07.880 was my comment one of the teachers in the group reported me for it a lot of them piled on to my
00:02:15.560 comment telling me that I was trying to uphold white supremacy in our schools or that I would
00:02:22.460 um just I don't even know it was a lot and all at once I I ended up actually deleting my comment I
00:02:31.560 just left the group and I thought to myself I might have just ruined my career because I knew what kind
00:02:37.100 of environment I was playing in so yeah the next day at school I was handed a letter that told me that I
00:02:45.320 was under investigation I didn't know really what this was relating to but I figured it probably had
00:02:52.280 something to do with the comment it did a month later they ended up suspending me for a week without
00:02:57.440 pay and then I kind of thought that whole thing was over but uh almost a whole year later the Ontario
00:03:04.340 College of Teachers so the regulator for all Ontario teachers decided to investigate me for that comment as
00:03:10.760 well uh they took almost a year uh to decide that they were going going to drop the case and that I
00:03:18.380 hadn't they they couldn't actually discipline me for anything I had said I ended up just receiving a
00:03:23.600 two-minute oral caution which just means them giving me a warning to basically stop being so controversial
00:03:30.620 um yeah now there's another investigation that's ongoing um it's not about this comment now it's about
00:03:39.320 another Twitter post that I put up in the fall of 2022 uh so last fall when I was running for school
00:03:47.180 trustee I posted about a school board initiative at the OCDSB so the Ottawa Public Board and it was
00:03:55.100 about meetings that they were going to have with kids after school uh Mondays and Thursdays for LGBT kids
00:04:02.000 Tuesdays for Muslim kids Wednesdays for black kids something like that and I posted about that
00:04:08.720 and they are now alleging that I gave access to whoever uh wanted to join these meetings uh which I
00:04:16.220 didn't actually do so we'll see how that goes um that that's extraordinary I mean of course you know
00:04:23.660 I've heard this uh you know uh you you say this in interviews uh and of course you know we we uh know each
00:04:30.620 other uh in real life as well uh we've had this conversation before um you're the comment your
00:04:37.800 initial Facebook comment seems pretty balanced um and and and so what what exactly was the was this
00:04:46.340 official complaint about what were they why were they pushing back I mean what what upset them so much
00:04:52.280 um did they they tell you what exactly they were um you know they were uh anguished about with what
00:05:01.240 you said the the original Facebook comment well apparently the allegation is that I was causing
00:05:07.380 harm with this comment I was causing um harm to racialized groups and um you know a bunch of stuff
00:05:16.500 there's a pages and pages of how horrible I was for putting this comment up but I think what it comes
00:05:23.760 down to in the end is that I questioned an ideology that can no longer be questioned it doesn't matter
00:05:30.480 how balanced you are how uh you you know somebody could be um new to this ideology and they don't
00:05:37.620 really understand maybe they have a more traditional um idea of what racism means and to them maybe racism is
00:05:45.480 you know when you treat someone differently or badly based on their race that is a common
00:05:51.480 um understanding of the word um so they could come in and say well it kind of seems like some of these
00:05:59.420 critical race theory initiatives are racist in and of themselves because we're taking groups and we
00:06:06.540 are putting them against each other we're saying that uh it's okay to discriminate in some cases as long as
00:06:12.640 it advances this group and not that one and you know it's different things so someone could come
00:06:18.220 in genuinely curious and get completely put down and silenced and ostracized and basically what effect
00:06:27.120 that has is that the next person is not going to want to uh voice their opinion at all so it allows them
00:06:33.920 to um to have full control over the ideas that are spread um so chanel i mean will i get you to um explain to us uh what
00:06:47.200 critical race theory is in a little in a few in a few minutes but uh did you you i'm assuming you got an
00:06:53.780 opportunity to make your case uh and um did you did you push back and ask them um you know what
00:07:02.420 exactly are you guys objecting to what what what what are you complaining about did they did they
00:07:08.260 give you a reason i mean uh i mean to say that uh that you were creating distress for um students
00:07:17.780 who are uh racialized i hate that word because it puts all of us people of color in a category which
00:07:25.620 i you know i never consented to this but yet you know i am it makes makes me sound like i'm
00:07:30.660 diseased or something which i'm not but uh you know what was this what was the substance i guess
00:07:37.540 my question is what was the substance of this official complaint why you know what were the
00:07:41.780 reasons uh behind why they were objecting to your post what specifically were they objecting to what
00:07:46.900 did they say honestly i don't have the letter in front of me i but i remember it being very
00:07:54.580 non-specific it was they didn't say exactly what the issue was with the comments they just said that
00:08:01.300 because of uh you know they listed what i said um i would be suspended for a week without pay oh and
00:08:09.620 by the way i wasn't allowed to step foot onto uh the school property or communicate with any
00:08:16.820 other parents so they're really stressful time for me because it was a time where um i was teaching
00:08:23.540 full-time and i've i had probably over 90 students in total so i'm in communication with parents um all
00:08:30.740 the time and i remember that night when i was told that i was uh under invest sorry uh suspended i was
00:08:39.620 supposed to meet with four different parents that night or call them or whatever and i wasn't allowed to
00:08:44.980 even touch base with them and tell them that i wouldn't be able to go through with the meeting
00:08:48.900 so it had a pretty serious impact on my uh reputation i think um but yeah it never was really too clear
00:08:55.940 what what exactly was wrong with the comment just that i wasn't supposed to make it yeah i mean it sounds
00:09:01.540 as vague as claims of systemic racism sometimes right you want really wonder what what that is about
00:09:07.300 and i say this as a person of color myself um so could you explain to us um what what uh critical
00:09:16.260 race theory is uh in layman's terms and and why why do you find it problematic
00:09:24.180 yeah um well critical race theory is basically an academic framework um it posits that the very
00:09:31.300 structure of our society everything is underpinned by racism and there's this kind of lingering oppression
00:09:38.980 in every situation in every policy in every interaction um so basically once somebody becomes
00:09:48.420 critically conscious so they they achieve this level of critical consciousness they call it um
00:09:55.460 um they use crt as a tool and this tool allows them to detect racism hidden racism in every single
00:10:06.420 situation you could imagine so crt is although people will argue that it's this law it's this legal theory
00:10:17.860 that's only seen in universities and in law courses the reality is that it has become a lens through which
00:10:27.220 issues of racism and social justice are uh spoken about it's it can be kind of brought into any discussion
00:10:38.580 whatsoever about society because it's a a way of understanding relations
00:10:43.940 yeah um and when did you chanel wake up to the uh dangers of um the woke turn in our society especially
00:10:55.780 in the public school system uh you know where base teachers are expected to teach crt whether whether
00:11:03.220 they agreed with it or not um yeah i actually woke up fairly late to what was going on i i was pretty much
00:11:11.780 on board with this kind of stuff i led the pride club at my school i did all kinds of things i
00:11:16.740 didn't really see an issue with it it's it's an ideology that's covered in very pretty language
00:11:22.340 it talks about being inclusive and kind and stuff like that so it's hard to object to it and especially
00:11:28.100 as a new teacher i think it's easy to to just follow along you see the other teachers doing it
00:11:34.180 and you assume that they know more than you do and that this is just the way that it's always been but
00:11:38.500 the reality is this is a new phenomenon and um i started to see it more and more um to the point
00:11:47.380 that it got kind of impossible to um to ignore to what extent it was affecting uh my teaching and
00:11:57.940 just the school environment in general um i think one of the turning moments for me was the summer of
00:12:06.900 2020 right after the uh george floyd murder and the all those riots and everything i had an old professor
00:12:15.060 from laurentian university who made a tweet and he said that all lives mattered and um he didn't
00:12:23.300 really understand i guess how political how politicized this statement had become and anyway he got
00:12:30.660 cancelled and i remember well first of all he was an awesome professor i had such respect for him so
00:12:37.940 when i saw that happening it really forced me to think about the impact this ideology was having and
00:12:45.540 kind of what was happening to my friends too because a lot of people in my circle were really against what
00:12:52.340 he had said and and they deleted me off facebook and things like that so it it made me um just think
00:12:59.860 about everything in a different way i started listening to podcasts and reading books and all of
00:13:04.820 that and i realized uh the the um that all of this was tied together in an ideology that was essentially
00:13:13.700 subverting liberalism and that was trying to take over in a really insidious manner um yeah yeah and you
00:13:27.060 um in this is a perfect point actually to get to my next question um and i'll get to that shortly but
00:13:33.780 you know it's extraordinary that you you spoke up and you were essentially cancelled uh you were cancelled
00:13:41.700 uh you were unfriended you were um uh derided by you know the community of school teachers that you
00:13:48.820 belonged to um and uh you know you were publicly criticized and shamed for this but yet you continue
00:13:55.540 to speak up uh you you refuse to remain silent which is uh you know extraordinary uh display of courage
00:14:03.140 in my opinion i meet a lot of cowards in my profession in and not in my well in my profession too but
00:14:09.060 i meet a lot of cowards uh um and uh you know and i and it's just uh wanted to um acknowledge your
00:14:17.860 courage in continuing to speak up um you know many teachers publicly criticized you and no one came to
00:14:24.740 your defense um you were you were literally left there fighting this battle on your own uh do you believe
00:14:32.420 that those who didn't speak up were doing so out of fear uh that they may face harsh consequences um and
00:14:42.500 and and and and so you know what does that really say about the state of public education public discourse
00:14:50.500 in our country yeah that's a great question it says a lot about it it says a lot that somebody can't even
00:14:57.540 comment on my case at all whether there's well actually they could comment on it if they were
00:15:04.900 criticizing me i'm sure but um the ones that do support me or at least maybe they don't even know
00:15:10.180 much about the woke ideology stuff and maybe their position is just that i should be allowed to talk and
00:15:15.300 and not be at risk of uh suspension without pay and losing my license and things like that um maybe they
00:15:22.260 just believe in free speech and even then they're not allowed to well i don't think they would be
00:15:27.780 allowed to defend me in that way and just say look i don't agree with what she's saying maybe but i just
00:15:33.060 want her to be allowed to say it they would probably get cancelled too i get a lot of support from
00:15:37.940 teachers but it's always people who don't want their name out there and it's it's the same pattern over
00:15:43.940 and over um there are a lot of teachers that i knew that deleted me off facebook as i mentioned
00:15:48.820 um but a lot of them did stay there but i still don't know what their position is because they
00:15:54.580 refuse to kind of they refuse to get involved in any way i think it just speaks to the climate of fear
00:16:02.500 that we've created yeah i mean to do this to you in the middle of a pandemic uh where you know people
00:16:10.180 you know there's a lot of uncertainty about the economy about jobs you know uh you know and we're all
00:16:15.380 like trying to deal with this pandemic to try to cancel you and prevent you from and and you know
00:16:22.420 an attempt to prevent you from teaching uh and to rob you of your livelihood is quite um it's it's
00:16:29.620 cruel it's diabolical it's just uh um just um evil i think in my opinion uh that too over a fairly
00:16:38.260 innocuous facebook post the teachers uh that uh who who uh disagreed with you um are they where would
00:16:47.700 you put them in terms of uh age and um you know in in background are they older are they mostly white
00:16:56.180 are they um you know are they mostly women um just tell me what what the the the you know give me a sort
00:17:03.940 of a rough um uh demographic profile of of these people well it's hard to say with the group there
00:17:12.340 i didn't really analyze who was from what group and all of that and also i didn't know those teachers
00:17:17.700 in real life but um since then i mean i've i've have a quite a good idea of the profile of your typical
00:17:25.940 woke um teacher and usually it's somebody who is probably between the ages of 25 and 32 and they're
00:17:36.420 generally white and university educated of course and um this is just something i i noticed over and
00:17:44.580 over again right it's these white people who think that they are being um virtuous by speaking up for
00:17:55.060 somebody else so that it it just doesn't make any sense at all as you pointed out at the beginning
00:18:01.300 it's like you as a person of color are being um told what what it is you can think or what you can't
00:18:08.020 think and we see this all the time if somebody is black and they speak out against this they are told
00:18:13.780 that they're not aware of their their oppressive um or sorry oppressed status in in society and they
00:18:22.180 they don't really realize it but they're helping white supremacy perpetuate itself and look let let
00:18:28.900 us take the lead you step out of this we've got this you you're not aware that you're oppressed but
00:18:33.860 we'll we'll we'll uh help you out you know and that's the most oppressive thing you can do stop
00:18:38.900 someone from talking for themselves and saying what is it how how they feel yeah false consciousness
00:18:44.900 right and it denies uh the person it denies that individual their agency which is kind of ironic uh
00:18:52.740 given uh the you know given the fact that um the whole premise of this is that you know you're you're
00:19:00.820 supposed to empower people and that sort of thing but you're actually denying agency and uh yeah
00:19:06.740 false consciousness it's extremely patronizing and insulting uh to say the least um you know here
00:19:13.540 you know in canada you know i i would say that in a matter of less than a decade or so maybe seven or
00:19:19.220 eight year stops uh we've gone from a generally centrist and um sensible place to having this extreme
00:19:27.620 woke narrative across the board um it's captured our institutions um it's captured you know every facet of
00:19:36.100 our society uh it's um you know our so-called liberal intelligentsia um and i say so-called because
00:19:44.500 the positions they often advocate uh advocate are illiberal uh do you have a sense of how we got into
00:19:52.820 this mess uh well i think it it started in universities for sure and then you know it's it's all these young
00:20:04.980 people in university they go in there they think okay well the professor knows more than me and they're
00:20:10.740 i i have to kind of stop my myself from looking dumb right like if there's a text that you're reading
00:20:19.860 in your gender studies class and it's all these big words and you don't really understand what's going
00:20:24.660 on you're not gonna as a 19 year old you're not gonna raise up your hand and say look i don't
00:20:31.860 understand you're gonna feel stupid doing that so you're just gonna go ahead with it until you
00:20:36.820 understand kind of what the aim is and what you're allowed to think which is very obvious in those kind
00:20:41.060 of classes i've been in them and uh you emerge from that with with an understanding of um what you're
00:20:50.020 allowed to think and then you can you can adopt those beliefs from for yourself and push it on the next
00:20:57.140 guys and and you get a sense of virtue from that because look you're fighting social justice right
00:21:03.060 and you understand all these big words now it's fun you're in university whatever i think it starts
00:21:08.500 with that you get these university students that are now persuaded that being an activist and these
00:21:14.660 kind of spaces is really important and then they get their gender studies degree or whatever and they
00:21:22.900 have to go out into the world now so what happens well they they bring their ideology they start
00:21:27.460 problem problematizing everything in their new work workplace and um bringing in these ideas and
00:21:35.380 sort of criticizing anyone who's not on board with it and i i mean that's just one piece of the puzzle
00:21:40.740 but i think it's definitely a big one yeah no i think that's uh that's that's a good uh sort of
00:21:47.860 good explanation of how how we got here um um you know to what extent do you think that this is a
00:21:54.100 fight between two sets of elites you have the ruling elite uh the ruling progressive elite and and and
00:22:02.260 and and those challenging them um where does the average canadian um fit into all of this they're
00:22:09.940 busy putting food on the table uh you know the economy as you know this inflation this cost of
00:22:17.140 living has gone through the roof uh how engaged do you think that the average person in canada um is
00:22:23.620 in these debates i don't think they're really paying that much attention to it like you said they're
00:22:30.820 focused on their their next getting their next paycheck and food on the table for their kids and
00:22:35.780 things like that i think people vastly um underestimate the level to which this ideology has has infested every
00:22:46.660 institution including their child's elementary school for example they have an idea of what
00:22:52.020 school is based on the education that they got 15 20 years ago and they think that it's an institution
00:23:01.140 that can be trusted and should be trusted and um you know a lot of these woke ideas that are that are
00:23:11.380 coming into the school they're not that obvious thought you really have to know the language you
00:23:16.660 have to know what is going on you have to spend time really learning about like the theoretical origins
00:23:24.100 of it and so that you can spot it um so it's like me i mean looking back just three four years ago
00:23:33.700 i didn't know i didn't know i didn't know what that all this was meshed together and that there was
00:23:38.980 some kind of larger picture goal to um to basically take down liberalism as we know it um so that's
00:23:53.060 that's what i'm kind of trying to do i guess is to show parents what is going on in school so that
00:23:59.140 those parents who don't necessarily have the time to look into every nook and cranny of this ideology
00:24:06.260 can see little examples and start to question what is going on and maybe ask their teachers their
00:24:12.740 their kids teachers questions so that they can be more aware of what their kids are learning and more
00:24:17.940 able to to um to have conversations with their kids about it and what's that experience been like
00:24:24.580 have you um have you been successful in uh getting people to think about the issue um or even at the
00:24:32.100 very least you know engage in the debate you know you're not you know it's it basically you know an
00:24:38.500 individual will make up their own mind about you know a certain issue but are you have you been
00:24:44.180 successful in even starting a conversation i i mean i think so it's hard to say i i'm in contact with a
00:24:52.580 lot of people um probably a couple every day that message me a lot of them are teachers and and
00:24:59.940 parents and they're um perhaps just learning about this what's going on very recently or they've been
00:25:07.380 trying to fight it for 20 years now um but it it is um it does make me feel that i'm doing something
00:25:16.340 when all these people think that reaching out to me is a good idea like who am i right who why why
00:25:22.740 would they be messaging me obviously they think that um the content i'm putting out is useful which
00:25:28.100 is nice and i hope that i can empower them to well first of all i try to connect them with other people
00:25:33.380 who might be thinking the same way or live in the same area and things like that so that they can start
00:25:38.980 to organize and and fight back and you know show up to the school board meetings and all of that stuff so
00:25:44.900 hopefully i'm having uh some effect oh i'm sure you are i mean this is a question i ask myself all the
00:25:50.580 time uh as you know as as a writer and some and someone who hosts uh a show uh for true north that um
00:25:59.220 you know what you know am i making a difference at the end of the day is someone have i managed to
00:26:05.300 convince someone or someone sitting on the fence or someone who um disagrees with me are they engaged in
00:26:11.300 this debate or are we all just like living in our own echo chambers um and i would not want the
00:26:17.220 latter i would want the former i would rather be challenged then um and get people to engage with
00:26:22.420 the ideas i would definitely not want to live in an echo chamber but given how polarized these things
00:26:27.620 have become it's uh hard not to think that sometimes you do live in an echo chamber and uh um and and that
00:26:34.660 you know i definitely i'm one of one of the things that i'm trying to do is trying to force
00:26:39.300 conversations or well i shouldn't say forced because that would be highly illiberal but uh
00:26:44.180 you know i'm trying to encourage people to you know engage with these issues um and of course the
00:26:50.340 bread and butter issues are obviously very important too but um this is about our future this is about the
00:26:55.940 school system this is about a lot of things that affect us um whether you have kids or not whether
00:27:02.020 um you know it doesn't matter society at the end of the day is going to be um is going to ultimately
00:27:09.140 um face consequences as a result um and and so you know you talked about uh showing up for school board
00:27:16.020 meetings um you know so those of those of us who do want to get engaged with this um um you know how
00:27:23.220 and and and and disagree with the narrative um that is currently prevailing in the country how do you push back
00:27:29.860 in the public sphere well i think you need to send letters and make your opinion known to as many
00:27:37.540 people as you can just speak the truth in your everyday life life too like i think people
00:27:42.980 underestimate that to a to a large degree they think they can speak on twitter um in a with an
00:27:49.700 anonymous name or something that doesn't i mean it might contribute overall to the the ideas that are out
00:27:55.380 there but it's really important to start speaking the truth in your everyday life even just little
00:28:01.060 things um i think people self-censor so much because they're scared of losing a friendship or something
00:28:05.940 like that and i would argue that if that friendship is that fragile that it can be obliterated by you just
00:28:12.820 speaking your mind maybe it's not that good of a friendship to begin with i mean it or maybe if you
00:28:19.140 could bring it up in a way that isn't so polarizing that you're kind of looking for nuance and and not
00:28:25.060 looking to just like attack the other person maybe maybe you can actually change someone's mind or at
00:28:29.380 least find common ground so yeah speaking the truth and i think one of the most important things
00:28:35.300 is to uh get involved in school board elections um run for trustee vote for a trustee support a trustee
00:28:44.580 candidate give them make a donation to them or you know volunteer to go door to door it's super important
00:28:51.380 and the next uh elections are going to be in 2026 so we have about three years and a bit to prepare
00:28:57.380 so um hopefully by then we have a really strong slate of candidates who can um take over the school
00:29:04.660 boards and bring some common sense there again and say look we want to focus on education we're done with
00:29:11.700 all this stuff we're done with racist math and and uh white supremacist uh i don't know phys ed we're just
00:29:19.620 done with it we just want normal stuff yeah yeah i mean yeah woke matt like i yeah it did it's yeah
00:29:29.300 it's i sometimes feel like we live in this bizarre world it's it really is clown world i mean you know
00:29:36.740 if you if you if you really want to put it in that in those terms um um and i and i think i would also
00:29:43.780 add to what you're saying that more importantly i think people also pay attention to what you're saying
00:29:48.260 um you know um and and follow you on twitter and uh you know and and look at what you've been saying
00:29:55.060 and i think uh that would that would uh it would definitely add that to your list uh chanel so i'm
00:30:00.500 gonna add that to the list uh uh it it's been a year since you were suspended um looking back um i you
00:30:09.460 know i'm gonna guess but i i i and i think the answer to this is that uh you stand by your decision but i'm gonna ask you
00:30:16.260 ask you anyway do you stand by the decision to speak out um and uh what does the future hold for
00:30:21.940 you yeah it's actually been two years since the suspension already which is hard to believe it's
00:30:27.620 been a really long time now but um yeah of course i stand by it i think even that night when i made the
00:30:34.180 comment and i hadn't gotten the backlash yet i hadn't gotten that letter i remember i i put the comment
00:30:39.780 there i kind of stressed out a little bit i i went for a walk with my dog i called my dad and i was
00:30:44.500 like i might have just screwed up my career i'm not sure but here's what i said and if all goes really
00:30:55.220 terribly like can i move in with you you know i was kind of being hyperbolic a little bit but he he said
00:31:02.980 all right well if something happens we'll deal with it and that was a big stress reliever it was like
00:31:08.420 okay at least he's not mad at me if something happens you know um i mean i've i've i'm happy
00:31:16.500 with the comment i made and i stand by it i think we have so much to lose in this our whole society
00:31:22.580 pretty much could be lost i don't want to be too um i don't want to exaggerate too much but i really do
00:31:28.820 see it like that you know if we lose our ability to speak freely then how can how can we have an
00:31:34.500 operating democracy we we just can't a democracy can't function without free speech so um hopefully
00:31:43.780 you know if i was able to open a few eyes with with what happened and and and maybe even inspire some
00:31:50.580 other people to speak up to then it was worth it and um you know the first time i was investigated by my
00:31:57.620 board i i sat there for a month i didn't talk to anyone about it really other than my family
00:32:04.500 and it was really isolating and and uh stressful and the year after when i was invested again that's
00:32:12.740 when i decided you know enough was enough and i didn't want to be bullied anymore i'm just so tired
00:32:18.020 of it so tired of that feeling of being alone in this so um yeah there was an evolution right i didn't
00:32:27.060 start off being this boisterous like i'm gonna say what i want and then stand there on my own and
00:32:34.420 and take all the criticism it was you get stronger as it goes right you you there's a progression you
00:32:41.620 start by saying one thing and and then you get some criticism but you also get stronger and then
00:32:46.260 you say the next thing and then now i'm at a point where i don't really sense self-censor at all and
00:32:52.180 it feels really good and i i recommend it like i just it's it's uh we need to use our free speech
00:33:00.900 if we're gonna protect it that's the best way to protect free speech and speak freely so um if you
00:33:07.380 want to do your part do that and that'll be good yeah and it and also courage just the courage which you
00:33:14.740 have in spades um um you know you've stuck your neck out and you you know you risk losing everything
00:33:22.980 really uh and you've lost a lot but you've also gained um a lot in the pro process as well um you
00:33:29.940 have a whole community of people who support you and who lodge you for your courage and uh you really
00:33:36.020 are role model to a lot of people out there um and including me so um so yeah no it was
00:33:44.660 uh great to have you here chanel i um that brings us to the end of this discussion but uh i really
00:33:50.820 wish you all the best and uh i hope to have you back here sometime soon awesome thank you so much for
00:33:58.660 thank you so much for having me
00:34:00.660 thank you so much for having me
00:34:02.660 thank you so much for having me
00:34:08.660 you