Juno News - The 'Creeping Extremism' of the Khalistan movement in Canada： Terry Milewski

00:00:00.000 recent images that have come out of a Sikh Vaisakhi day celebration in Calgary showing the

00:00:09.340 glorification of Talwinder Singh Parmar the mastermind of the air India bombing Canada's

00:00:14.780 worst terrorist attack as some sort of martyr raised the eyebrows of many Canadians it wasn't

00:00:20.840 just because this celebration was attended by what appears to be thousands of Canadians but Canadian

00:00:26.360 politicians were in attendance as well including the RCMP and the Canadian military who are holding

00:00:33.160 recruiting events at this celebration the murder of Calistani activist Hardeep Singh Najjar last year

00:00:39.220 outside of his gurdwara in Surrey British Columbia kicked off a firestorm of protests which culminated

00:00:45.340 in Justin Trudeau making the rather large accusation that India was behind the killing of Canadian

00:00:51.520 citizen Hardeep Singh Najjar since that accusation tensions between Canada and India have reached

00:00:58.380 their lowest point the nucleus for this major international scandal playing out really in

00:01:04.820 Canadian streets is the global Calistan movement and our next guest is what many would consider

00:01:10.340 to be a subject matter expert on Calistan well joining us now is a man who will be quite familiar

00:01:16.180 to Canadians who have spent time watching the CBC Terry Malevsky is a journalist and former senior

00:01:21.700 correspondent for CBC News and he's also the author of the 2021 book blood for blood 50 years of the global

00:01:29.300 Calistan movement Mr. Malevsky thank you so much for joining us thanks for the invitation so obviously this issue

00:01:36.900 about Calistan and the Calistan movement has come back into the news cycle after we've seen recent

00:01:42.740 Vaisakhi Day celebrations and Khalsa Day celebrations in this country attended by Canadian politicians

00:01:48.580 but before we get too deep into the issue why don't we just begin with having you as a subject matter

00:01:53.780 expert on this explain to us what Calistan is because from my perspective this is a a group that is a

00:02:02.020 movement that advocates for a breakaway Sikh state in Punjab do I have that right beyond Punjab um yeah

00:02:10.980 that is in principle uh right but the details are important uh they are claiming according to their

00:02:17.780 latest map they change according to the whims of those drawing the maps um and there's no sort of

00:02:24.100 established religion on this question but uh let's take the uh group that's organizing the referendum

00:02:30.740 campaign called Sikhs for Justice they've published a very extensive and ambitious map uh which includes not

00:02:37.860 just Punjab but parts of Haryana just about all of Himachal Pradesh uh Rajasthan uh a couple of other

00:02:47.140 states to boot and um with a capital uh at Shimla which is in the state of Himachal Pradesh so um they want

00:02:57.700 more than just Punjab but they don't want all of Punjab by which I mean historical Punjab in to include the

00:03:07.540 majority of its territory which uh since partition has been in Pakistan that's Punjab too historically and

00:03:16.020 very important uh to Sikhs as well to their traditions and to their religion uh for example the city of Lahore

00:03:24.420 uh was absolutely central to Sikh history and culture uh and uh was the seat of Ranjit Singh's

00:03:32.820 Sikh empire back in the day a couple hundred years ago to which they often hearken back saying well we've

00:03:38.580 had our own independent state before why can't we do it again and uh what about Nankana say which is

00:03:46.500 the birthplace of the father of the of the Sikh religion Guru Nanak they're not claiming that either

00:03:52.900 so it's it's it's we could go on about this but it's a big question your opening question is a big one

00:03:59.700 what exactly is Khalistan why doesn't it include these uh sites that are so fundamental as they say to

00:04:07.940 Sikh history and culture and it raises the question well it almost answers the question doesn't it

00:04:14.180 they don't want to lose lose the support of Pakistan for the Khalistan enterprise because Pakistan has

00:04:22.100 always been essential as a base of operations and a source of diplomatic and political support

00:04:28.740 I mean the even the the idea of this being a Canadian issue is strange of course because

00:04:38.500 really it's not something that other countries you know would usually have to worry about but it's

00:04:42.340 really become part of the Canadian news cycle especially recently and your former employer the

00:04:47.940 CBC published an article or a video I think it was both that made the case that actually the

00:04:53.620 Khalistan movement is not as strong in India as it is in Canada uh is that correct would you agree

00:05:00.260 that it's actually stronger in Canada well that's not understating it uh I mean I'll give you just a few

00:05:08.180 figures you can drown in figures on this but I mean um it's important to get this right the uh support

00:05:16.980 for the idea of an independent state called Khalistan an independent Sikh state called anything is in

00:05:24.500 India absolutely microscopic uh I'll be specific in the last two elections uh and several before I won't

00:05:35.140 go too far back uh you you're allowed to run in India as as a separatist uh pretty much like in Canada

00:05:43.860 if you're not threatening violence uh and you just hold a political view you can run and they do

00:05:52.820 and the last time out they got two and a half percent of the vote and no seats and the time before that

00:06:00.660 they got 0.3 of one percent a fraction of one percent nota which is a category in Indian elections

00:06:12.260 none of the above got more than the separatists did in that I'm talking about elections in the

00:06:19.300 Sikh state of Punjab which is 58 percent Sikh so where is this support please uh one more number

00:06:27.780 uh okay I'll give you two one more number a couple of uh academics in Alberta did a survey I guess about

00:06:34.660 a year ago found 79 percent of the Sikhs they interviewed thought that the idea of an independent

00:06:41.540 Khalistan was a waste of time and the Pew Research a very reputable uh I think uh international

00:06:50.020 research company that doesn't just go around with a clipboard and say pro or con they interview people

00:06:55.300 in death they interviewed in 19 in 2019 and 2020 about 30 000 Indians now that's a sample size

00:07:04.980 and a subset of that they interviewed the Sikhs of Punjab where most Sikhs still live to this day

00:07:12.660 and they found that 95 percent I repeat 95 percent uh of the Sikhs in Punjab said that they were very proud

00:07:22.820 to be Indian that's a quote uh and furthermore a majority of them also said that if you disrespected

00:07:31.220 India the nation of India then you weren't a real Sikh you couldn't be a real Sikh and disrespect India

00:07:39.140 so uh enough numbers um I think my point stands that the the idea that has been promulgated low these

00:07:47.700 many years decades now 40 years in Canada that uh the separatists somehow are the authentic voice of

00:07:55.300 the Sikhs they always say they are and too too many politicians fall for it uh maybe you want to talk

00:08:02.580 about that too but on this point uh the fact of the matter is that far too many politicians have fallen

00:08:12.260 for the idea that the Sikhs want an independent state no Khalistanis do but the Sikhs in general in the

00:08:21.780 vast majority don't and that was the next question I was going to get into which is why do we have

00:08:29.380 Canadian politicians whether they be Sikh or not attend these events and speak on stages or take photos

00:08:38.020 standing beside Khalistan flags I mean it's not even as though they're trying to make the effort

00:08:43.060 to not be associated with Khalistan they they sometimes are in pictures standing beside people

00:08:48.340 with Khalistan flags why do we have this happen in our country because again it it just does not really

00:08:54.020 seem like a a typical issue that we would we would have to be dealing with in Canadian politics

00:09:00.820 well it's it's a thorny question isn't it because um the the short answer I guess is they they do it

00:09:06.820 because everyone does it I I can't criticize you for doing it because you'll turn around and point

00:09:13.460 the finger at me and him too and her too they all do it so it makes it very difficult doesn't it for

00:09:20.420 any one party to criticize another that's one thing more broadly though I mean it's a case of um

00:09:28.100 ignorance lack of curiosity um because you will find that many politicians don't appreciate the

00:09:38.100 difference between Sikhs and Khalistanis it's as though and and it's literally this dumb to give

00:09:44.580 you an example people are are not familiar with with this uh but they should be in Canada if I said that I was

00:09:53.860 uh against say drunk driving and you said ah you're biased against drivers people would say no he's

00:10:05.060 just against the drunks uh you're you're you're crazy that's not a bias against all drivers he said

00:10:12.500 he's biased he's against drunk drivers right that as stupid as it is is exactly what's happening

00:10:20.980 and egged on by the Khalistanis in Canada in Canada that's exactly what's happening is that if you say

00:10:28.660 you disapprove if you don't want to stand there with the Khalistan flags then people will say uh you're a

00:10:36.420 racist uh you you'll be called called a racist I can guarantee you that and and anti-Sikh as though the

00:10:44.580 Sikhs are all Khalistanis which they're not but uh let me add just one more point before before I shut

00:10:51.460 up and that is that um standing next to a Khalistan flag doesn't bother me we have freedom of speech

00:11:00.260 fly the flag march down the street and say Khalistan's in the bud long live Khalistan fine with me

00:11:06.580 I'm for free speech why not and Canada has adopted that that position uh for many years the problem

00:11:15.060 is a separate one it's not about the flags that's an expression of political opinion which may be

00:11:22.100 controversial but hardly fatal it's the it's the pictures the martyr pictures of the mass murdering

00:11:30.500 terrorists who are held up as models for Sikh youth martyrs of the Sikh nation leaders men that we should

00:11:38.820 look up to to include the ubiquitous portrayal of Tolvinda Parma the air India bomber of 1985 who slaughtered

00:11:48.580 331 completely innocent civilians who had nothing whatsoever to do with his battle for Khalistan

00:11:56.500 and is revered today as a a shaheed a leader and and a martyr that is the glorification of terrorism

00:12:07.700 and an incitement which should not be allowed in my view i again i was just going to lead to that part

00:12:15.140 which is the fact that you have um Talwinder Singh Parmar the air India bombing mastermind be glorified at

00:12:23.140 these events that where canadian politicians are present where the military and the rcmp are recruiting

00:12:30.740 it does send a very strange message and the question i have about this is is why is this

00:12:37.140 what why is a man like Parmar glorified at these events and glorified by calisthenes i'm assuming that

00:12:46.500 not all Sikhs glorified this man but of course calisthenes clearly do um why is it why is that

00:12:53.540 the case and i'm pretty sure you can correct me if i'm wrong terry but i think you are interviewing

00:12:57.780 jagmeet singh and when when he was or maybe when he had just conceded that Parmar was behind the

00:13:03.780 air India bombing for a while he didn't he didn't agree that Parmar was actually the mastermind

00:13:09.140 yeah it was kind of the other way around it was right it was i think the day after he won the

00:13:13.700 leadership and uh and he did not acknowledge uh that Parmar did blow up air India and he did not

00:13:21.780 condemn the display of martyr posters glorifying this mass murdering terrorist canada's worst ever mass

00:13:29.380 murderer uh given five opportunities to do so in that interview and it took five months uh to correct his

00:13:37.700 you he eventually came around to saying that it was a very fair question and that uh yeah he he now

00:13:43.780 understood that Parmar was indeed uh the author of the air India bombing but you're at you're asking uh

00:13:51.140 about uh what why does this happen and the answer is that we because they've if you give them an inch

00:13:58.500 they'll take a mile is the old expression so back in the day when i started started first started

00:14:04.100 wailing about this 20 years ago uh they would put little eight by ten pictures on the parade floats

00:14:10.900 in the vaisaki parade going by and you know these pictures would show uh their famous martyrs the

00:14:19.620 assassins of indira gandhi the assassins of general vaidya who led the indian army at the at the golden

00:14:25.860 temple in 84 the assassins of bayan singh the chief minister of punjab who put an end to the insurgency

00:14:34.500 in 95 and so on they looked around and they saw that nobody said anything about it nobody objected to

00:14:43.780 the display of these pictures so the next year they came back with bigger pictures and the next year they

00:14:49.700 came back with a life-size glamour photo with ornate ceremonial sword and uh sky-high turban

00:15:02.340 of Parmar fixed permanently to the outside wall of an important gurdwara in surrey british columbia

00:15:11.220 so having done all of that for years who's going to come along and now and say well you know my party and

00:15:18.580 his party and her party we've all blown it we've all made a mistake here and we should stop showing

00:15:25.620 up if these events are going to show those pictures imagine the impact that they think that they might

00:15:30.500 lose votes what they're afraid of canadian politicians have always been afraid that if they

00:15:35.540 are the exception and they step up and say i'm not going to go to your vaisaki parade if you're going to

00:15:41.060 show these appalling pictures this is a disgrace and and i'm going to bet that i can get when more

00:15:48.420 votes by opposing it than i can by uh looking the other way as they routinely do at vaisaki parades

00:15:58.180 i think that impact would be considerable and i think there might even be a rush of other politicians to

00:16:03.700 join in there's one more thing and i'm sorry to go on on this question it's another key question

00:16:09.940 that is that there there's always an excuse that has been offered by the kalistanis when you ask you

00:16:17.700 know why why are you doing this this is revolting this is a disgrace they say ah but he's innocent

00:16:25.140 and a lot of politicians grab that excuse and run with it ah well there's no consensus they say to me

00:16:31.460 you know they say he didn't do it well i'm afraid after the air india trial that just won't wash it's bolted

00:16:40.580 down it's nailed down every which way i won't get started uh don't get me started i i advise you on

00:16:50.660 the extent of the concrete hard evidence sworn and tested in public in both a criminal trial and a

00:16:59.940 couple of other criminal trials and a judicial inquiry about 10 years all put together of uh of judicial

00:17:07.460 examination of these facts and i do mean facts show that this excuse that oh well he was innocent

00:17:14.100 he didn't do it the indian government blew up their own plane that's sort of conspiracy nonsense nonsense

00:17:20.340 is what it is but that helps to keep the politicians in the fold right it gives them an excuse well he

00:17:27.380 didn't do it he didn't do it so what's your beef well beside the pictures of uh uh parmar as a shaheed

00:17:35.780 they also have hardeep singh najjar as a martyr at these events as well and for canadians who've

00:17:42.020 been following this that name may sound familiar he was the gurdwara leader who was uh gunned down

00:17:47.220 in surrey last year i believe it was and the canadian government accused the indian government of being

00:17:52.100 behind the assassination and there were a group of four men who have just been charged with that murder

00:17:58.820 now we've been told terry that this man was either a terrorist leader or he was a plumber

00:18:06.340 and from your position which which was he you know what what what who really was hardeep singh najjar

00:18:13.940 well uh he wasn't much of a plumber he didn't seem to be working at it full time and he wasn't much of a

00:18:20.100 terrorist either because the indians never managed to produce uh the kind of evidence that i just spoke

00:18:27.940 of in my previous answer in the case of the air india bombing and all the years of examination we've got

00:18:34.420 the evidence up down and sideways uh of of his guilt and of those who assisted in his enterprise uh with

00:18:44.500 najjar well you know he's accused in the ludiana cinema bombing and so he's accused of a lot of

00:18:51.140 things and traditionally just as canada has fallen short in responding to indian requests for the

00:19:02.420 rendition of wanted uh terrorists as the indians call it canada has fallen short i mean canada refused

00:19:09.300 an indian request to extradite parma the air india bomber in 1982 when pierre trudeau was in office

00:19:19.860 for the murder of two policemen in punjab so you know we're not talking about handing out leaflets

00:19:26.100 we're talking about serious criminal activity and canada said no so canada has fallen short in

00:19:33.220 responding to indian requests but india has also fallen short in assuming that you know just because

00:19:39.700 they say well we want him he's a terrorist yeah but where's your evidence and very often they have

00:19:45.060 failed to produce what would convince either a canadian or british or american courts there's they've had a

00:19:52.180 problem all over the world in fact in getting these people sent back to india because of the lack of

00:19:57.300 evidence they often i want to go back to the political element to this because i think that's

00:20:03.780 probably the most important aspect of this the fact that this movement seems to have a pretty strong

00:20:09.140 grip on canadian politics at least from my perspective um who is behind the funding of the

00:20:15.460 calistan movement who funds for example the world seek organization and these other groups that seem to

00:20:21.780 be you know involved in in our local politics well i think they found themselves i think it's very

00:20:28.980 easy i mean the indians will often tell you again you know they sort of cut to the chase without a

00:20:34.900 whole lot of evidence well pakistan pays for it all don't you know uh well uh maybe they do i don't have

00:20:43.860 hard evidence it's very hard for me to look into their internal finances uh they certainly have supported

00:20:49.940 the movement every which way training medical care weapons refuge safe haven where did parmar go

00:20:59.060 when the police closed in after the air india bombing he ran to pakistan he spent the last three

00:21:04.020 years of his life mainly in pakistan so it's always been a haven uh but that doesn't necessarily mean

00:21:11.220 that they that uh pakistan uh finances uh groups like uh seeks for justice so i i i i i simply don't

00:21:22.180 have evidence to make that statement but i don't think it's particularly important because they've got

00:21:29.060 plenty of money themselves they don't have any problem i mean you've got a keyboard got a computer

00:21:37.300 you can be big on the internet i mean it's not as though they're spending a lot of money you know

00:21:41.700 they're not fielding a military right they are internet warriors they're keyboard warriors and they

00:21:49.220 do a great job of that and it doesn't need a lot of financing you don't need the pakistani isi

00:21:55.300 shoveling money into an enterprise that costs very little do you think that this calistani issue in

00:22:02.980 canadian politics maybe it's the glorification of terrorists like we've seen with parmar

00:22:09.140 is this going to be a permanent fixture of canadian politics going forward

00:22:14.420 well i i very much hope not because uh as i said it only takes one brave politician well it wouldn't

00:22:23.140 necessarily have to be very brave and true but i mean you mentioned the cal the recent calciday

00:22:29.300 celebration yeah in toronto uh lots of calistan flags but also posters of prime minister modi of india

00:22:37.700 and foreign minister tashankar and so on and the defense minister calling them killers

00:22:44.740 offering rewards uh if you go get them uh and um saying let's let's besiege indian uh embassies and high

00:22:56.340 commissions uh offering cash money in rewards for revealing diplomats home addresses in other words

00:23:07.860 threatening their safety obviously intentionally undermining their safety increasing their security bills

00:23:15.700 that kind of thing that that that's what goes along with those nice yellow flags and the cries of

00:23:21.940 palestans in debat there's there's more to it that um i i would like to i would like to think that

00:23:28.980 eventually a leading politician there were three at uh at least well at the federal level the mayor was

00:23:36.900 also there but at the front of calciday for example pierre polyevre was there didn't say a word against

00:23:42.660 him so was jagmeet singh it wasn't you know the indians say well trudeau's supporting these people you

00:23:48.420 see how he's smiling while they're chanting palestans in the bad well you know that's not the problem

00:23:53.700 you know keep your eye on the ball guys um they're they're threatening the lives of diplomats

00:24:01.380 and glorifying mass murderers worry about that for a change and i think that if a politician

00:24:07.700 did stand up and make that speech and say look i've i've done this myself i'm here to tell you that i'm

00:24:15.300 not coming next year i'm not going to come and and have this creeping extremism where it gets worse

00:24:22.340 and worse every year where you know next you'll be calling palmar a saint well some people already

00:24:28.100 do right uh and um i i'm not going to be coming to your visaki parade if that's what you if that how

00:24:34.820 you intend to behave and watch that politician win the votes of the rest of the indian diaspora there

00:24:41.300 are more of them than there are calistanis i guarantee you and the last question i have for

00:24:46.740 you terry is this um you know from our perspective we've seen a major surge in our population especially

00:24:52.980 from india and particularly from in particular punjab does it not benefit india to get rid of people who

00:25:00.340 might be uh anti-indian the anti-indian government and get rid of people who might be more prone to the

00:25:05.940 caliscani cause and send them to canada and to have them in our country and have them in their

00:25:10.580 country do you think there's an element of them wanting to actually incentivize people like that

00:25:15.220 out of india and into canada i i actually don't believe that for the simple reason that the indian

00:25:21.620 government uh does not like it much at all right when somebody that they would like to put in prison

00:25:29.540 escapes their jurisdiction goes to canada and continues to ferment uh hell for uh his former

00:25:40.020 country uh and they're very bitter about that uh and they say that canada shouldn't be letting these

00:25:46.740 people in the foreign minister joshanka said said as much in so many words just a couple of weeks ago

00:25:52.740 um and uh you know it it's it goes along with more of the um exaggeration i i should say of by the indian

00:26:05.540 side of just how terrible some of these people are some of them are terrible but um i mean we we know

00:26:13.940 of four who are now charged with murder that came apparently as students and didn't seem to do a whole

00:26:19.140 lot of studying did they but i don't think they ever went to school at all um so both you know you

00:26:26.580 can blame both sides the indians for letting them go the canadians for taking him in fine blame them

00:26:31.780 all uh but i don't think that's that that's the real issue uh between the two countries the indians are

00:26:38.420 still stuck on their traditional point of view they don't share our definition of freedom of speech

00:26:45.540 uh and and and and we don't share their definition of terrorism uh for example seeks for justice uh is

00:26:55.780 banned in india as a terrorist organization and it's and its leader go patran singh punon the target

00:27:02.660 of uh the principal target before ninja of the assassination plot he's also branded as a terrorist as

00:27:09.060 was ninja well if if if they could come up with good hard evidence uh they might find that they'd have

00:27:16.660 better luck getting western democracies to give these people up but uh that that's the real issue

00:27:22.820 between between the the the decision apparently by some people in the indian government with or without

00:27:29.620 official sanction uh that's an argument still to be had um the the decision to take to decide to go after

00:27:38.100 them in canada and in the united states and elsewhere by the way there's about maybe a dozen or so that

00:27:46.180 have died under mysterious circumstances in pakistan um but the decision to go after these people and

00:27:53.780 wipe them out and these kind of semi-official hit squads that's you know we we still don't know exactly how

00:28:00.580 much we can pin on the the top levels of the indian government but i can tell you that um the canadian

00:28:07.700 uh and to to to a similar extent the united states government is quite convinced that it went very

00:28:15.620 high up in d the approval uh for these killings that's the real issue right now isn't uh punks

00:28:23.540 who aren't showing up at school with student visas it's uh it it's it's murder squads going around in

00:28:32.340 the western democracies wiping out well who people that they've decided they don't like because they

00:28:38.100 think they're a terrorist and they couldn't produce enough evidence it seems like it seems like a real

00:28:45.940 unnecessary disaster for our country to be in but again one that needs to be reported

00:28:51.220 and discussed and so uh mr malewski i really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us on

00:28:55.780 this issue my pleasure enjoyed it

Juno News - May 28, 2024

The 'Creeping Extremism' of the Khalistan movement in Canada： Terry Milewski

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