Juno News - The disappearing urinals… and the bureaucrats pushing gender neutral bathrooms

00:00:00.000 It's Pride Month in Canada, and Parliament Hill is making a statement.

00:00:04.260 As part of sweeping renovations, all new bathrooms inside Centre Block and the Welcome Centre are being converted into gender-neutral bathrooms.

00:00:13.520 No more men's rooms in normal women's rooms, and, curiously, no more urinals.

00:00:19.560 For diversity, equity, and inclusion, naturally, in today's episode, I want to talk about the urinal.

00:00:25.800 This humble and, perhaps, malodorous invention might not seem like your typical dinner-party conversation piece,

00:00:33.720 but, regardless, it sure seems to have struck a nerve in the culture wars.

00:00:38.320 My guest is journalist Peter Shaw Taylor, Senior Feature Editor at C2C Journal and long-time contributor to outlets like the National Post or the Globe and Mail.

00:00:48.960 In his latest C2C article, Standing Up for Urinals, Peter dives deep into what we're really trading away in the name of gender equity.

00:00:58.580 Privacy, efficiency, and even water conservation.

00:01:03.780 Peter explores how policies pushed by activists and bureaucrats are reshaping our public spaces.

00:01:10.500 And, you probably guessed it, without public debate.

00:01:13.920 Whether you love the idea of gender-neutral bathrooms or feel a little uneasy, one thing is clear.

00:01:21.180 Reason is being overwritten by ideology, regardless of the foreseeable consequences.

00:01:27.040 And, seeing as it's the end of the month, month one of pride season, 0.96

00:01:31.220 there's no better time to opine over the disappearing urinals. 0.99

00:01:35.660 I'm Melanie Bennett. This is Disrupted.

00:01:43.920 So, Peter, great to have you with me today.

00:01:50.040 It's great to be here. Thanks for having me, Melanie.

00:01:52.340 Yeah, no problem. I really enjoyed your article with C2C Journal.

00:01:56.920 It's not often that we have such in-depth pieces about urinals.

00:02:02.460 And, in the article, you do make the case that the urinals are kind of on the outs

00:02:08.360 and something we don't really talk about too much.

00:02:10.480 So, thinking about this disappearing act, it seems that it's more ideological rather than practical.

00:02:18.420 And, I was hoping that you could maybe lay out for the audience some of the ideological dynamics at play

00:02:23.180 and perhaps even some of the unforeseen consequences.

00:02:26.480 Sure. Well, I think the origins of this can be traced back to some feminist arguments in the 1960s, even. 1.00

00:02:36.320 What was called potty parity, the idea that the lineups for women's washrooms were longer than lineups for men's washrooms.

00:02:43.880 And that was unfair because, for obvious biological reasons, women take longer to go to the bathroom than men. 1.00

00:02:50.760 Initially, the advocates in the potty parity movement argued for larger women's washrooms and men's washrooms, 0.92

00:03:01.760 given that if it takes longer than if you had more stalls in the women's washroom, the women would be able to get through quicker. 1.00

00:03:09.600 And, by and large, that has actually happened.

00:03:12.660 Canada's National Building Code mandates twice as many what they call water closets for a women's washroom as for a men's washroom in a public building. 0.71

00:03:22.040 But, and through the states, where a lot of the potty parity arguments were made, a lot of states and cities have also done similar things,

00:03:33.140 mandating two for one in women's to men's washrooms.

00:03:36.860 But what has happened, they've sort of won that battle, but you still look around and the lineups for the women's washrooms are still longer.

00:03:44.500 So, what has happened in the last few years is the potty parity movement has sort of made, excuse me,

00:03:52.220 common cause with the increasingly vocal transgender activists who seek to break down the binary sex definitions in society.

00:04:04.280 And so, they've been arguing for universal washrooms, that everyone should use the same washroom.

00:04:09.740 That way, there's no so-called discrimination between genders.

00:04:15.160 And the women, some of the women advocates have latched on to this because, obviously, if everyone is lining up for the same stalls, 1.00

00:04:23.160 then the wait times is going to be identical.

00:04:26.000 So, that's how we've got to a movement right now where we're starting to see more and more universal washrooms,

00:04:32.680 gender-neutral washrooms in public buildings.

00:04:36.060 So, that's how we got there.

00:04:37.700 The unintended consequences is there's no room for urinals in these washrooms.

00:04:43.060 If every stall in a universal washroom is meant to serve either a man or a woman,

00:04:48.480 then there's no point in putting urinals in.

00:04:51.260 Urinal is a male-only waste disposal device. 0.96

00:04:54.920 So, that's how we got here.

00:04:58.240 And as the story explains more and more, we're seeing these universal washrooms.

00:05:04.840 In terms of the unintended consequences, if you get rid of urinals in this sort of equity battle, 1.00

00:05:13.660 make everybody wait the same length of time, we're losing all of the benefits of urinals.

00:05:21.860 And urinals are a very efficient system on any measure of efficiency that you want to come up with.

00:05:28.960 There's so many, it's hard to know where to start, but urinals take up less space.

00:05:33.180 They take up less than half the space of a standard toilet stall.

00:05:36.000 So, if area is an issue in a building and you want to make more room for women's washrooms, 1.00

00:05:43.160 then men's washrooms with urinals make a huge amount of sense.

00:05:46.880 Obviously, the reason men like urinals so much is that they're quicker. 0.99

00:05:53.020 They're a lot quicker.

00:05:53.880 You don't have to go into a stall and wait and all that.

00:05:56.600 You're in and out very quickly.

00:05:57.980 But I think the biggest argument in favour of urinals is water usage.

00:06:02.940 A standard urinal, according to Canada's National Plumbing Code,

00:06:07.060 can't use more than 1.9 litres of water per flush.

00:06:10.900 A standard toilet in an institutional, commercial, industrial setting can use up to 6 litres of water per flush.

00:06:21.460 And keep in mind, this is potable, treated, municipal water.

00:06:24.480 This is the water supply for the entire area.

00:06:29.340 So, urinals use a third of the water, less than a third of the water of toilets. 0.90

00:06:33.820 And so, if you're forcing men to line up and go to urinate in a toilet stall,

00:06:41.140 you're wasting an enormous amount of water.

00:06:44.300 I mean, this must be hundreds of millions.

00:06:46.580 I don't have a calculation of how many times men urinate in public buildings,

00:06:51.580 but it must be in the hundreds of millions.

00:06:55.320 So, this is a huge environmental waste.

00:06:59.960 And my guess is, I don't have any proof of this,

00:07:03.340 but the people that make arguments for equity and washroom lineups

00:07:09.640 are probably also making arguments about climate change and environmental disasters, etc., etc.

00:07:16.680 And they're inadvertently making the case for a huge amount of water waste.

00:07:22.740 So, I don't think the whole issue has been well thought out.

00:07:26.300 And so, that's where we're at, seeing more and more universal washrooms,

00:07:31.020 and we're losing all the efficiency benefits of urinals in the process. 0.57

00:07:36.760 Yeah, we sort of see that tension.

00:07:38.680 I mean, that's one of the areas that I thought was pretty interesting,

00:07:40.680 where the article is talking about the water usage,

00:07:42.260 because you don't really think of the cause of gender ideology, for example,

00:07:47.400 or feminism coming with a tension with the environmental movement

00:07:53.060 through something like a urinal.

00:07:55.240 So, I thought that was quite an interesting point to make in the article.

00:08:00.320 But on a slightly different note,

00:08:03.200 speaking of gender identity and gender-neutral bathrooms and things like that, 0.97

00:08:08.940 I think a lot of Canadians might think that the gender-neutral bathroom 0.98

00:08:13.200 is a natural, organic process that we're just, you know,

00:08:18.460 progressing through society.

00:08:19.660 It's just what the next step in the, you know, the next step.

00:08:24.740 Yeah, but precisely.

00:08:26.620 And I don't think that, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on whether they might not realize

00:08:32.280 that this is coming from some other sources, maybe surprising sources.

00:08:35.760 In your article, you mentioned things like the building codes are human rights directed.

00:08:39.280 Yeah, well, I don't think anyone has out protesting,

00:08:44.380 get rid of men, separate men's and women's washrooms. 1.00

00:08:47.240 In general, when I know when I encounter universal washrooms,

00:08:52.760 it's, oh, someone has decided this is what must happen.

00:08:56.460 And it's always a decision made from on high.

00:09:00.840 And my sense is that there's not a groundswell of public demand

00:09:07.180 to get rid of separate men's and women's washrooms. 1.00

00:09:10.200 They've been around for centuries and work well by all measures.

00:09:15.460 And in fact, I don't see that, speaking as a man, I would be distraught if urinals disappeared 0.90

00:09:28.020 for some reason, if someone thought we should get rid of urinals because it will make society fairer. 0.98

00:09:33.260 I think that's a little crazy.

00:09:35.420 But even women, I think, if you sit down and think about it for a while, 1.00

00:09:41.140 I think a lot of women, and maybe you can speak to this, 1.00

00:09:43.960 are not going to be very pleased with the universal washroom phenomenon either

00:09:49.620 if it becomes everywhere, if we end up getting rid of all separate men's and women's washrooms 0.99

00:09:56.060 and public buildings and just provide universal washrooms, 0.88

00:10:00.540 particularly in places like sports stadiums and auditoriums, music halls, et cetera.

00:10:07.300 If you've got very large crowds,

00:10:09.220 if you've got intermissions, say, hockey game,

00:10:13.080 everybody wants to go to the bathroom at the same time,

00:10:15.560 you've got men and women all lining up for these universal washrooms, 1.00

00:10:18.920 and the men want to get in and out as quickly as possible.

00:10:22.160 And I don't have to tell you, you know, what the result can be.

00:10:25.520 Every woman I've talked to, save one radio show host in Toronto, 0.99

00:10:29.900 was horrified at the idea of going into a stall that a man has just come out of

00:10:34.820 and probably peed very quickly and may not have lifted the seats and who knows what.

00:10:41.480 So it's not just anecdotal evidence in the story.

00:10:44.900 There's actual polling.

00:10:46.920 Bathroom manufacturing companies have done polls.

00:10:49.880 And it's like two-thirds of women say they would rather not have a universal washroom. 0.88

00:10:54.820 And explicitly mentioning the fact that it can be messy when men have been in there before them.

00:11:02.740 And there's a host of other reasons.

00:11:04.940 Muslim women are supposed to avoid contact with men they don't know in certain settings. 0.96

00:11:13.660 That is gone.

00:11:15.740 The idea that the woman's washroom is kind of a sanctuary where you can go and sort of chat with your friends

00:11:23.060 or take a little break when necessary, that's also gone.

00:11:28.380 So there's a, yeah, I don't see a groundswell of public demand for this,

00:11:34.180 but it's being imposed nonetheless.

00:11:37.800 So this is a curious topic.

00:11:39.880 It's certainly not one that I've come across in my travels learning about gender identity ideology in Canada.

00:11:47.100 And I was curious how you came to want to write about this.

00:11:52.160 Well, it's like all good journalism.

00:11:55.280 It's a personal experience.

00:11:56.740 I was taking my 89-year-old mother to see the Nutcracker in Kitchener.

00:12:01.800 I live in Waterloo Region in Ontario.

00:12:04.580 Centre in the Square is sort of the major music auditorium in my area.

00:12:09.280 So we were there to see the Nutcracker at Christmastime.

00:12:12.400 My mom said, I want to go to the bathroom. 1.00

00:12:14.660 I said, well, I've been here before.

00:12:16.180 I know where the washrooms are. 0.94

00:12:17.640 And I took her to where I thought they'd be.

00:12:19.240 But unbeknownst to me, since I'd been there the last,

00:12:22.120 they had taken out the men's and women's washrooms on this side of the auditorium, 0.64

00:12:26.400 and they'd installed these universal washrooms.

00:12:28.800 And so I was lining up with my 89-year-old mom, and she says, well, why are there men in this lineup with me?

00:12:36.480 And I said, who knows?

00:12:38.260 They've decided that they would be better off with universal washrooms.

00:12:42.820 So that got the mind ticking, I guess.

00:12:46.480 And I said, what are we losing when we put these in?

00:12:51.140 And that sort of got me interested in the effect on urinals.

00:12:55.260 But I did a little more research.

00:12:58.240 I went to the University of Waterloo.

00:12:59.860 Universities are very big on the universal washroom trend.

00:13:04.200 I think the transgender voice is very strong on campus.

00:13:07.840 So the University of Waterloo has taken quite a few of their men's and women's washrooms

00:13:14.500 and just put all-gender signs on them. 0.77

00:13:18.200 So you will have what used to be a men's room with an all-gender sign.

00:13:23.040 And so it still has the urinals.

00:13:24.440 This is sort of an interim step, I guess, before they get rid of everything and create all universal washrooms.

00:13:30.200 But anyways, they put new labels on all the doors.

00:13:33.080 And I hung around the math building at the University of Waterloo for a little bit,

00:13:37.900 trying not to get arrested for being creepy, but just watching what was going on.

00:13:43.280 And I saw one guy put his hand on the door for a universal washroom, see the sign, and say,

00:13:51.040 oh, I'd rather not.

00:13:52.420 Because on the next floor, there were still men's and women's washrooms.

00:13:55.440 It was sort of universal washrooms on one floor, men's and women's washrooms on another floor.

00:13:59.120 They're sort of alternating like that.

00:14:00.340 And he put his hand on, pushed the door open a little bit, saw the sign, took his hand off,

00:14:05.800 went away, went up the stairs, and presumably went to the second floor and went to the men's washroom there.

00:14:11.980 Why?

00:14:12.820 I didn't talk to him, but I'm guessing he just felt more comfortable there.

00:14:16.060 And he just didn't want the hassle of the universal washroom.

00:14:19.160 And I went into a couple of them.

00:14:20.820 There was nobody in there.

00:14:21.820 And the men's washroom on the second floor was full.

00:14:25.500 So they're not even serving their customers.

00:14:30.540 People, if given a choice, it appears to me, people will go to a separated men's and women's washrooms.

00:14:37.460 They'll only go to the universal washroom if they're forced to.

00:14:40.400 So, you know, it's hard to see the logic of this movement.

00:14:45.360 Yeah, speaking of, just going back to building codes for a second, I read in your article that, you know,

00:14:53.340 that this is going on a PowerPoint hill right now.

00:14:57.020 So they're changing all of the bathrooms.

00:14:58.860 It's Parliament Hill, isn't it?

00:14:59.820 But I also, later down in the article, was reading about how whilst the universities and public service or government are taking this on as their project and putting a lot of money into it,

00:15:12.980 that perhaps businesses haven't been flocking to developing these gender-mutual bathrooms as much as, say, the designers would have liked.

00:15:21.240 So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

00:15:23.900 Yes.

00:15:24.220 Well, as I said, you know, universities are probably the leading edge of this movement.

00:15:28.960 And there's quite a unique washroom that's just been installed at the University of Montreal.

00:15:37.420 It's kind of a circular thing.

00:15:39.500 It's universal, of course.

00:15:40.960 So there's all these individual stalls with floor-to-ceiling doors, et cetera.

00:15:44.820 But it has this circular pattern, which is different than most bathrooms.

00:15:51.480 So there's little lounges.

00:15:52.880 The idea is that students will just sort of hang out in the bathroom all day, that this is going to be a social spot.

00:16:00.240 Anyways, I talked to the architects who designed this to the university's specifications.

00:16:04.900 The university said what they wanted, and the architects, you know, came up with this.

00:16:09.480 And then they were thinking, well, if the University of Montreal wants this, maybe other places will.

00:16:13.580 So they kind of marketed it as washrooms for all.

00:16:17.840 And they thought maybe this could be something they could sort of brand themselves as.

00:16:23.680 They are the architects that do these universal washrooms.

00:16:27.380 And I talked to them, and they said it's been a complete bust.

00:16:30.940 That other than the University of Montreal, no one has asked.

00:16:33.940 And they actually, when they have a client say, you know, we want to do a renovation or whatever, they say, are you interested in universal washrooms?

00:16:39.840 And they say no.

00:16:41.260 So they're quite disappointed, I guess.

00:16:45.160 They thought they were getting in on the early stages of what was going to sweep the nation.

00:16:50.620 And, you know, based on public response outside of, you know, the university sector, and the university sector is all in on this.

00:16:59.760 So if you're just looking at universities, you're going to think it's swept the country.

00:17:04.200 But even the federal government is apparently quite reluctant, other than the center block renovations, which are definitely universal.

00:17:13.260 So, yeah, the actual demand remains to be seen on this.

00:17:19.240 Yeah.

00:17:19.420 So if just I'm going to ask you a silly question now just to wrap up the interview.

00:17:26.280 But if you, after doing all of that research about the humble urinal, is there a defense that you would make for the urinal to remain?

00:17:38.420 Oh, well, yeah.

00:17:39.120 I mean, I've made the efficiency arguments.

00:17:42.120 I've made the accuracy arguments, if you will, that urinals make sure what you want to get flushed away is getting flushed away and not, you know, spread maybe on the toilet seat.

00:17:54.620 The other thing is to go back in history, like why did the why was the urinal invented in the first place?

00:18:00.100 It came up during the industrial age.

00:18:02.820 It was invented for factories when most factory workers were men.

00:18:08.240 The idea being they needed a quick way for men to relieve themselves so they could get back onto the production line.

00:18:16.760 And, you know, without the urinal, men sort of go anywhere.

00:18:21.440 I'm not defending that as just an observation.

00:18:25.160 And I think if you get rid of urinals, if you make everybody line up in the same line for universal washrooms, and keep in mind that women aren't going to be that impressed with the time because men are now going to take, they're now competing with those toilet stalls with men. 0.93

00:18:43.240 And men are going to take twice as long to go to the bathroom as they used to. 1.00

00:18:47.080 So you're going to lengthen the lineup considerably.

00:18:53.500 What's going to happen?

00:18:54.500 Well, men are going to say, well, screw that. 0.95

00:18:56.620 I'm not going to stand in this line forever. 0.80

00:18:59.220 I've got the ability to pee against a wall.

00:19:02.460 And again, I'm not defending it.

00:19:04.220 But that seems to me a highly logical outcome.

00:19:07.560 So you'll end up back where we were before we vetted the urinal, if you get rid of it.

00:19:12.720 I mean, it serves a purpose.

00:19:15.200 Not only is it efficient, et cetera, but it, you know, satisfies what you might call a male need.

00:19:21.340 And I think all of society is going to be worse off without it.

00:19:27.040 So, you know, I really hope this universal washroom fad proves to be just a fad and goes away because, I mean, the outcome is just going to be worse for everybody as near as I can tell.

00:19:41.060 Yeah, well, I appreciate the defense of the urinal.

00:19:46.660 I think it's something we don't often talk about, certainly not in terms of ideology or either we could even go as far as wokeness and the consequences of what or the even unintended consequences of what might happen if we get rid of something like like a urinal.

00:20:02.280 So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about your article and the C2C Journal today.

00:20:08.080 So thank you very much, Peter.

00:20:09.380 It was a pleasure.

00:20:10.700 Thanks for having me.

00:20:11.600 Thank you so much for making it to the end.

00:20:13.780 That's it from me today.

00:20:15.420 If you like this episode, please consider liking and subscribing.

00:20:19.900 And don't forget to join us next week.

00:20:22.140 I'm Melanie Bennett.

00:20:23.340 This is Disrupted.

Juno News - June 28, 2025

The disappearing urinals… and the bureaucrats pushing gender neutral bathrooms

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript