Juno News - The equity agenda is ruining academia (feat. Dr. Carol Swain)

00:00:00.000 It is no secret that Canada's colleges and universities are plagued with wokeness.

00:00:07.560 Since launching our Campus Watch series in November 2022,

00:00:13.000 TrueNorse has exclusively reported on several woke trends taking place in academia.

00:00:19.420 This includes the implementation of racial segregation and race-based hiring practices

00:00:25.700 in the name of anti-racism and equity, diversity, and inclusion, also known as EDI.

00:00:35.460 While popular among powerful figures in academia, EDI has been criticized by several professors,

00:00:42.920 including Black and racialized scholars.

00:00:46.320 Today, I have the pleasure of discussing this issue with renowned American scholar, Dr. Carol Swain.

00:00:54.540 She is an award-winning political scientist, a former professor of political science and law

00:01:01.140 at Vanderbilt University, and a former associate professor of politics and public policy at Princeton.

00:01:08.560 As an African-American woman, Dr. Swain has been critical of the Black Lives Matter organization, 0.84

00:01:14.440 critical race theory, and the equity, diversity, and inclusion agenda being pushed in academic

00:01:21.120 institutions.

00:01:22.120 She has also founded a business which offers organizations unity training, which she sees

00:01:29.380 as an alternative to EDI training.

00:01:32.760 Dr. Swain, thank you so much for joining me today.

00:01:36.300 It's my pleasure.

00:01:37.240 Thank you for asking me.

00:01:39.300 So the words equity, diversity, and inclusions, they sound nice.

00:01:44.340 And I think the majority of people want institutions that are diverse, equal, and inclusive.

00:01:50.760 However, EDI practices have been criticized by many, including yourself.

00:01:56.040 Sue, can you tell me what is the problem with EDI and the way that it's being used by academic

00:02:01.740 institutions?

00:02:03.520 First of all, I would say that most of the people that I know, including myself,

00:02:08.840 we welcome diversity, that diversity is positive.

00:02:14.120 And if you look at nature, if you look at the universe, I would say all of God's creation

00:02:20.820 is diverse and has been diverse from the very beginning.

00:02:25.240 And within the realm of affirmative action and the new diversity, equity, inclusion,

00:02:30.840 inclusion, diversity as part of a government program or institutional effort, that started

00:02:43.140 after affirmative action.

00:02:45.500 And at that time, it meant that recruiters and people would go into communities where people

00:02:52.020 were underrepresented and they would make them aware of opportunities that they may have missed.

00:02:58.020 And they would recruit the best and brightest from those communities and try to give them

00:03:04.920 whatever assistance they might need to bring themselves up to speed.

00:03:09.420 And in the case of myself, I was a high school dropout who dropped out of school after completing

00:03:15.940 the eighth grade.

00:03:17.060 I married.

00:03:17.980 By the time I was 20, 2021, I had three small children.

00:03:24.180 And for me, people encouraged me.

00:03:28.420 I got a high school equivalency.

00:03:29.900 I went to a community college.

00:03:32.180 And while I was there, I took my media math.

00:03:36.300 I received a lot of encouragement from people to continue my education.

00:03:41.720 And so because of the encouragement I got from individuals that believed in diversity and

00:03:48.520 inclusion and outreach, and they were concerned about the historical discrimination against

00:03:53.740 Blacks, they put an effort into making sure that people like me were aware of opportunities.

00:04:04.300 You know, you have a business called where you do unity training.

00:04:07.760 And you've said in one of the videos that multi-ethnicity is something that's a good thing for

00:04:11.900 organizations.

00:04:12.520 And I think there's a lot of ways in which diversity can be good for different groups.

00:04:20.200 Right now in academia, there are demographics that are underrepresented and students of those

00:04:25.840 demographics say they would like to see more people of their identity, including more professors

00:04:30.240 of their identity on campus.

00:04:32.060 So I guess, how can we have more diverse institutions without modern-day affirmative action and quotas

00:04:40.220 and other EDI?

00:04:42.560 Here's the problem.

00:04:44.560 And I've watched the transformation of universities because I started my college education in the

00:04:49.300 70s.

00:04:50.660 And in the 80s, I went to graduate school.

00:04:53.760 In the 90s, I started teaching and, you know, was tenured at Princeton and at Vanderbilt

00:04:59.100 College Universities, in the 2000s, I was at the universities, and I noticed how the approach

00:05:05.920 changed.

00:05:07.200 And I can tell you that when I started my education, the focus was on equal opportunity and

00:05:14.020 non-discrimination.

00:05:16.080 Equity is not the same as equal opportunity.

00:05:19.060 And when I started my college education, I had an equal opportunity to fail or succeed.

00:05:25.660 And I saw many people fail, that the universities opened up the floodgates.

00:05:30.580 They brought in lots of people.

00:05:32.740 And many of those were not able to compete at the institutions where they were admitted.

00:05:39.180 And so they fell by the wayside.

00:05:41.620 I don't know how many of those actually returned to college.

00:05:45.720 But it was clear that in some instances, people were being admitted into institutions just so the

00:05:53.000 institutions would look good, that they would get their numbers up.

00:05:56.320 And they were not prepared, and they dropped out, or they were flunked out.

00:06:03.280 And what I think that has happened now is there's been an overemphasis on the numbers, trying to get

00:06:09.480 proportional representation.

00:06:10.740 And standards have been lowered to the point that you get people in, they are struggling.

00:06:16.740 And so some of them end up in the ethnic studies program, where it's easier to succeed.

00:06:23.140 And universities change to the point that it's almost impossible to flunk out.

00:06:28.860 And so in my era, you could flunk out.

00:06:32.480 You know, you expected if you were a racial and ethnic minority to meet the same standards.

00:06:36.500 What is happening today is detrimental to American education, as well as to the health and well-being

00:06:44.840 of the people who are admitted under that system.

00:06:48.920 Because some of those students, they are angry.

00:06:52.140 And they should be, because they've been used.

00:06:55.540 And they've been used to advance the goals of the institution.

00:06:59.000 The institution wants to look good.

00:07:00.600 And you asked me, what would happen if affirmative action was eliminated?

00:07:05.220 Before affirmative action, if you go back and do your history, even before, I mean, early 1800s,

00:07:14.380 early 1900s, you had Blacks at institutions that did not discriminate.

00:07:21.000 And so institutions in New England or the Northeast that did not prohibit Blacks, that they admitted 0.74

00:07:29.220 people based on qualifications, you had Black people there.

00:07:33.500 They were not in large numbers, but they were there.

00:07:36.400 And during the 1950s, when the civil service tests were a big deal in getting a government

00:07:43.680 job, the job went to the person that had the high scores.

00:07:48.360 The Black middle class in Washington, D.C. and places like that are there because they

00:07:54.940 love the test.

00:07:55.860 Because with the test, it went to the person with the highest score.

00:08:00.460 And so it took the discrimination out of it.

00:08:03.340 So a merit-based system is something that minorities, under the worst conditions, they were able to 1.00

00:08:09.660 rise to the top and prepare themselves and astonish everyone else because they had to work a little

00:08:17.180 bit harder, but they did it.

00:08:19.360 So take away affirmative action. 0.56

00:08:21.320 You change the incentive structure.

00:08:23.300 You change people's behavior.

00:08:25.100 The ones that want to be at Ivy League schools will be at Ivy League schools.

00:08:28.660 The ones that want to be at state schools, people will be more likely to be admitted to the

00:08:33.520 institutions where they are qualified to be.

00:08:37.080 There will be more success stories.

00:08:39.560 And so I think it would be good for society as a whole.

00:08:42.300 Right, and that actually kind of leads on to my next question.

00:08:47.280 There are some who believe this critical race theory narrative, they believe that grading

00:08:51.840 is part of the problem and that grading upholds racism.

00:08:55.720 We're seeing universities now implement pass-fail grading systems and move away from standardized

00:09:01.040 admission exams such as the LSAT.

00:09:03.580 What impacts do you think removing grading, removing these tests will have on the Black

00:09:10.820 community?

00:09:12.560 It impacts everyone.

00:09:13.660 It doesn't just impact the Black community.

00:09:15.820 And so the idea that whether it's crime or reducing academic standards, that this is 0.98

00:09:21.560 just something that's going to affect racial and ethnic minorities, that's ludicrous.

00:09:25.640 When you argue that math is racist and that depending on your ethnicity, you might get a different

00:09:30.660 answer, you're teaching that to everyone.

00:09:34.060 And so all of a sudden, something that we always knew, you know, two plus two equals four,

00:09:39.620 well, maybe not.

00:09:40.580 If you're Black, it could be six or it could be eight. 1.00

00:09:43.540 You're telling everyone that.

00:09:45.580 And what I think is going to happen is that this new approach is going to harm society as

00:09:51.160 a whole because people are not going to be qualified to do the things they were qualified

00:09:55.800 before because there are certain fields where you need a strong mathematical background.

00:10:00.660 You know, you need people that excel in calculus and algebra and all of those things.

00:10:06.740 And then there are other fields where you need people that excel in areas that may not be so

00:10:13.080 quantitative.

00:10:15.120 There is variety and diversity among human beings.

00:10:19.000 But when you lower the standard, you make it unsafe for society as a whole.

00:10:25.380 You make it less likely that racial and ethnic minorities that want to go into fields where

00:10:31.340 you have to really prepare yourself with rigor, that they would go into those fields and be

00:10:36.920 successful.

00:10:38.060 And I believe the people that push that agenda are racist, that they are racist to the core,

00:10:43.900 that it has nothing to do with trying to increase the number of racial and ethnic minorities,

00:10:48.980 minorities, but it has everything to do with their beliefs that minorities are inferior.

00:10:53.920 They're so inferior that you're not going to have enough of them unless you remove the

00:10:58.940 standards.

00:10:59.500 They're not drawing the standards now.

00:11:00.900 They're trying to remove the standards.

00:11:04.020 Right.

00:11:05.120 I guess a belief that is kind of linked to this idea of removing the test is this idea that

00:11:10.540 white supremacy is embedded in academic institutions.

00:11:14.040 And they will say that that is why, for example, that black students have an average lower GPA 0.95

00:11:20.460 than white students. 0.93

00:11:21.300 They have lower SAT scores.

00:11:23.200 And they're more likely to drop out of schools.

00:11:25.920 What do you think is causing all of that?

00:11:30.280 What do you think is causing these disparities between, let's say, black students and white

00:11:38.080 students when it comes to test scores?

00:11:39.600 There were some studies that were done in the 1990s.

00:11:44.220 And I think it was Shaker Heights, Ohio, a study in particular, where they looked at affluent

00:11:52.060 blacks and their children were not doing so well.

00:11:56.400 And one of the things that's come out of some of the educational studies, because at one time, 0.97

00:12:01.380 the progressives on campus or the faculty members, they actually studied real world problems

00:12:08.740 and tried to identify it in a way using the scientific method.

00:12:13.060 And they found that black students studied the least amount of time of any of the other groups.

00:12:23.540 The blacks, you know, kind of was that they were at the bottom. 0.95

00:12:26.620 Asians were at the top. 1.00

00:12:28.300 Whites were somewhere in the middle. 0.86

00:12:30.220 But the average black student, you know, was spending, I don't remember the exact number

00:12:35.720 of minutes on their homework, but it was not much.

00:12:39.540 Asian students were spending like maybe four hours on their homework.

00:12:43.340 But I think that the group disparities have to do with cultural norms.

00:12:48.920 And if you're watching a lot of television, now playing a lot of video games, because there

00:12:53.420 was not an issue back then the way it is now, that you cannot be prepared for the rigorous

00:13:01.120 standards that would be expected normally in college.

00:13:06.340 And so I don't think that it has anything to do with white supremacy.

00:13:11.900 In fact, white students are being affected almost in the same way as black students. 0.56

00:13:16.440 The standards have dropped for everyone.

00:13:20.400 Everyone's expectations.

00:13:21.900 Everyone wants a free bread handed to them.

00:13:24.480 There's less emphasis on hard work.

00:13:26.560 And so whatever you do with one group, it affects every other group.

00:13:31.980 So with racial and ethnic minorities, I think that the standards have been dropped so low 1.00

00:13:38.220 for some groups that they get into those institutions.

00:13:42.360 They won't flunk out if they show up for class, but they're not getting educated.

00:13:47.900 They're in over their heads and they're miserable. 0.96

00:13:50.300 And that's why they're out there protesting and wanting to burn down the place. 0.95

00:13:53.960 And in some institutions, they have separate course sections for racial and ethnic minorities.

00:14:01.620 So they're resegregating.

00:14:03.200 You have people by their own demands resegregating on campus.

00:14:09.120 We had a civil rights movement that was supposed to end segregation.

00:14:12.860 And now you have black people clamoring for segregation.

00:14:17.100 And as far as white supremacy, I wrote a book in 2002, 0.93

00:14:21.000 The New White Nationalism in America is Challenged to Integration. 0.65

00:14:26.520 At that time of white supremacists, there were a small percentage of white people

00:14:32.180 that thought because they were Caucasian, they were superior to other groups.

00:14:36.900 It was minuscule.

00:14:39.280 And also the KKK at that time probably had 2,000 members out of 350 million people.

00:14:48.400 And so white supremacy and all of that stuff was dying, going away.

00:14:54.340 What the left did was redefine white supremacy to include all white people,

00:14:58.760 make the argument that whiteness is property, 0.57

00:15:01.260 make the argument that all white people are privileged,

00:15:05.100 even the ones in Appalachia and distressed areas of the country.

00:15:10.260 And so they're playing some kind of dangerous game

00:15:13.020 that does not benefit racial and ethnic minorities.

00:15:16.280 It doesn't benefit the white population.

00:15:18.740 It doesn't benefit the Asian or the Hispanic populations.

00:15:22.940 The only people it might benefit are the cultural Marxists that are pushing this revamped idea of diversity,

00:15:33.000 equity, inclusion, where they have redefined the words.

00:15:36.500 And they're constantly redefining all the words to fit their agenda.

00:15:40.220 Yeah, for sure.

00:15:42.060 And you brought up segregation and what we've been doing at True North,

00:15:46.900 we've been exposing here in Canada a lot of new segregated Black spaces 0.71

00:15:51.640 that are being established in Canadian universities.

00:15:55.060 There are now some universities with Black-only student lounges,

00:15:58.060 Black-only study halls, Black-only workshops, and even Black-only yoga classes. 0.99

00:16:04.060 And one of the arguments in favor of these spaces is they say Black students need a safe community place 0.99

00:16:11.940 where they can share lived experiences without the white gays. 0.97

00:16:15.280 Right now, that's all critical theory. 0.98

00:16:17.380 Right.

00:16:18.500 What are your thoughts on this idea that students need to be segregated in order to feel safe?

00:16:25.020 Well, I mean, I know American history better than I know Canadian history,

00:16:28.540 but the whole purpose of integration and affirmative action was to bring people together.

00:16:36.220 And as a Christian, I believe that there's one race, the human race.

00:16:39.720 And within the human race, you know, you see differences among people,

00:16:44.640 but you see differences among every variety of living creature.

00:16:50.060 And so I think that this resegregation is a way for the elites to not have to deal

00:17:01.580 with the, quote, Black problem, because there are problems that are particular to Black communities.

00:17:07.700 And they have lowered the standards to the point, even when it comes to crime in America, 0.93

00:17:12.000 where, yes, they want to defund the police, and they want to release dangerous criminals out on the street,

00:17:18.620 and they want bail reform so that criminals don't go to jail.

00:17:22.460 And you can't keep the kind of crime that comes from that, from not spilling over into other communities.

00:17:29.220 Plus, it's not something that the Black rank and file want. 1.00

00:17:33.740 Like, even during the defund the police movement that followed George Floyd's death,

00:17:39.820 something like 80% of Black Americans wanted more police presence.

00:17:44.540 They wanted better interactions with police, but they wanted more police presence.

00:17:48.620 And all of these things that have taken place are things that white people with their handpicked minority elites are pushing.

00:18:00.460 It's not to the benefit of the people or the world.

00:18:03.500 I do want to talk about dealing with these issues now, maybe from a policy perspective.

00:18:08.780 Florida is proposing a EDI ban.

00:18:13.420 Several states are banning critical race theory and education.

00:18:16.860 Are government-imposed bans on these ideologies the right way to deal with this issue?

00:18:25.260 Well, I testified before the Texas Senate Education Committee last week, and I will testify again on the following, a week from now, about a different bill.

00:18:38.300 The bill that I testified in favor of was against compelled speech at colleges and universities for students that may be more conservative,

00:18:49.820 or they may be Christian, or being forced to participate in activities or to espouse certain beliefs that run contrary to science as well as their conscience.

00:19:03.660 And that's a violation of the First Amendment, and that's a violation of the First Amendment.

00:19:07.740 The First Amendment in America protects free speech, but it also protects people from being compelled to engage in certain actions.

00:19:18.140 And so I think that that's important for that legislation.

00:19:22.380 And when it comes to critical race theory, critical race theory is one of several different critical theories that come from cultural Marxism.

00:19:30.860 The problem with many of those theories is that they violate the Civil Rights Acts of the United States, as well as the Constitution's Equal Protection Clause.

00:19:41.100 So yes, I think government is justified in passing new legislation to make sure that people's rights are protected.

00:19:51.660 And many people don't know that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and its amendments protects white people, it protects males, it protects Christians, as well as other religions, the Constitution.

00:20:03.980 And so I think it is appropriate for states to ensure that all the citizens are protected equally under the law, and that's what the CRT DEI bans are all about.

00:20:18.540 Right, for sure. I do want to ask you a more personal question. Since 2020, especially in America, but also here in Canada, there has been a lot of talk about racism.

00:20:29.260 Did you experience racism when you were a student and a scholar, and how did you deal with that, as well as other barriers that were present during your academic journey?

00:20:38.620 I did not experience racism. I experienced classism, because I came from the underclass, and most of my mentors were white, and they were the ones that encouraged me and pushed me to get a PhD.

00:20:54.140 I came from a background. I was a first-generation college student. I had dropped out of school. All of my siblings dropped out of school.

00:21:06.300 I did not know anything about becoming a university professor. And when I started the community college, I just wanted a two-year degree. I was going to get a job, and I applied for jobs.

00:21:17.580 I was told I needed a four-year degree. I decided to become an honor student, and I had made the dean's list a couple of times at the community college by just studying.

00:21:29.180 I met C's without studying. This was in the 1970s, but I decided I wanted to be an honor student so that I could get a better job.

00:21:39.420 I checked out books and purchased books on how to make A's in college, how to take essay exams, how to take objective tests,

00:21:47.500 and I applied the principles, the study skills, and my first semester at my four-year college. I had a 3.7 GPA,

00:21:57.820 and I was one of 20 blacks there, and I graduated magna cum laude, and I did not have the preparation

00:22:08.220 that I would have gotten in high school in science and math, so I waited until I was a senior to take science

00:22:13.580 and math, and at the community college, I took Remedia math, and I have been successful because I have

00:22:23.580 believed that if I worked hard and got an education, it would make a difference, but I would never have

00:22:28.780 gone as far as I did in the educational realm. I have five degrees, a community college degree in business.

00:22:37.020 I wanted to do art. I have art skills. I wanted to be a commercial artist. I was told to be practical,

00:22:43.020 and I was always a person that when authority figures or people I respected gave me advice,

00:22:50.860 I often followed their advice, so when I was told that a commercial art degree was not practical,

00:22:55.820 I chose business, and the first degree was in business. The second degree was in criminal justice,

00:23:01.660 and that degree, by then, I knew that I needed to be an honors student and that I was good in anything

00:23:08.380 that didn't have too much math in it. As the four-year degree, I had to take a stats course and a math

00:23:14.940 course and two sciences, and I was able to get my bachelor's degree earning only one C, and that C was

00:23:25.340 in a stats course. I earned an A in math, and how I earned that A was after it was finite math.

00:23:33.980 I did not do well on the first exam. I dropped the class immediately and spoke with the professor.

00:23:41.420 He allowed me to sit through the whole class to take the test, not for credit, and so I sat through

00:23:48.940 the whole class, and then I retook it the next year, but I worked so many problems so that when I was

00:23:55.820 actually taking the final, it was like an out-of-body experience. I was on automatic pilot. I had done those

00:24:01.740 problems so many times, and so I earned an A in a math class, but it was all strategy, and so a lot

00:24:09.900 of the things that have made for my success was me knowing my own self, knowing my strengths and

00:24:15.420 knowing my weaknesses, and coming up with a plan, and I think that I wasn't looking for someone else

00:24:21.260 to do it for me. I knew my strengths, and I knew my weaknesses, and I had a plan.

00:24:25.980 Right, for sure.

00:24:27.980 I know as far as the racism, this thing that's important about the racism is that my race has

00:24:33.420 benefited me far more than it's hurt me because as an honors student, black, everyone would know my

00:24:39.340 name immediately after the first exam, and there were some psychology classes that would have over 100

00:24:45.740 people. I could do one of those psychology tests in probably 10 minutes and have the highest grade,

00:24:53.820 and so my reputation was such that I was known all across the campus. If I had been white, male or

00:25:01.500 female, I would not have been known. It would just be another white person that excelled, but because I was

00:25:07.020 black, and I guess people may have had lowered expectations. In fact, my advisor, who later became a

00:25:15.340 friend, told me when I was being admitted to the college not to expect to do well because

00:25:20.540 this college, Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia, was a very difficult school, and my personality is

00:25:28.780 such that that was thrown down the gauntlet. All you have to do is tell me that I can't do something,

00:25:33.020 and I'm going to show you that I can, and so that has helped me a lot, but I have encountered very

00:25:40.460 little racism, and when I did encounter it, it came from the liberal professors on campus.

00:25:46.220 Dr. Carol Swain, thank you so much for joining me today.

00:25:51.180 It's my pleasure, and maybe we will talk again sometime.

00:25:55.500 To support our Campus Watch series and other objective independent journalism,

00:26:02.860 visit donate.tnc.news. If you're watching this on YouTube, please don't forget to subscribe if you

00:26:10.540 haven't already. For True North, I'm Émilie Canténantel.

Juno News - May 02, 2023

The equity agenda is ruining academia (feat. Dr. Carol Swain)

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