Juno News - The Fight for Freedom in China (ft. Tiffany Meier)

00:00:00.000 hi everybody welcome back to the rupa subramanya show it's great to have you here once again and

00:00:22.880 i'll spend some of your valuable time with me this past week has seen an upsurge in protests

00:00:29.600 in china against the regime's zero um covet policy a very draconian um pandemic policy essentially

00:00:38.720 ended up locking down millions and millions of people in china and which resulted in many regional

00:00:45.680 lockdowns when most of the rest of the world has opened up protests against the regime are unusual

00:00:53.280 we all remember the images of unarmed protesters staring down tanks in Tiananmen square in beijing

00:01:00.880 in 1989 at the same time people in eastern europe were throwing off the shackles of communism the

00:01:08.080 chinese regime survived the biggest test of their existence and mercilessly crushed the peaceful

00:01:13.920 protests there has been no significant challenge to the communist regime since then today we have a

00:01:20.960 great guest to discuss what's going on in china right now uh tiffany meyer is host of china and

00:01:27.760 focus for ntd epoch times thanks tiffany for joining me um so we're here to talk about china uh public

00:01:35.840 protests um at least what is visible visible to us uh in the west is not very common in china

00:01:43.120 what do you make of the recent protest and do you think they have any serious chance of

00:01:47.520 toppling the communist regime well i think your first part about like what we can see is very

00:01:53.360 important right because that is the question it's like how are we being able to see these videos

00:01:58.080 and you see like the tick tock symbol on a lot of them on twitter and so it's like who's controlling

00:02:03.760 that so there's talks of the infighting right because chinese leader xi jinping recently secured his

00:02:09.360 third term he basically removed anyone who was associated with the previous one so either hu jintao or

00:02:15.600 jiang zeming who just died today and so there are those people supporters and they're not happy with

00:02:21.520 xi jinping doing that so some are saying that's how these videos are getting out here so that we're

00:02:26.240 seeing it and then inside china what's interesting this time is even on the like chinese social media

00:02:32.720 so like wechat and like the weibo ones there's even talks about that there's like people sending the

00:02:37.600 little white squares emojis in the chat so that's something different from normal because it's like you

00:02:43.440 know often there are protests not at this level but around china but to the fact that you have that

00:02:49.440 being passed around on chinese social media apps in china is something new we're not seeing yet

00:02:55.440 and if it's enough to really topple xi jinping i think it's too early to tell right now but it is

00:03:01.200 definitely something worth seeing that's like really big right it's like something we haven't really seen

00:03:06.640 in the last 30 years basically or since 1989 those protests um so that's definitely very interesting

00:03:14.400 yeah so i mean the protests are significant for sure i mean we haven't seen anything like this since 1989

00:03:21.760 since uh tiananmen square and uh um you know so if not toppling the regime will the protests lead to

00:03:29.440 any kind of change in chinese government policy um you know especially as it relates to the uh to

00:03:37.920 their draconian zero covet policy um and also it's very interesting that they've allowed these protests

00:03:43.680 uh so far does that reflect a softening of their position uh which which normally allows

00:03:50.240 no protest whatsoever or were they just caught off guard here i think you're seeing kind of a

00:03:56.560 combination it's like some of the maybe guards right maybe they're more sympathetic but at the

00:04:03.440 same time you are seeing more police showing up right but then there also seems to be a push and

00:04:08.800 pull between so the demonstrators or the protesters almost seem to know how far they can push so you'll

00:04:15.040 see like whole cities coming out and protesting with the white papers and the point of the white paper

00:04:19.600 is like it doesn't have anything on it so you can't like the regime the chinese party can't go after

00:04:24.800 them being like oh look you're inciting you know revolt or you know violence or treason they can't

00:04:30.080 say anything because there's literally nothing written on the paper but even so there have been

00:04:34.000 a few examples of students getting pulled away even just holding a white piece of paper so that's

00:04:39.440 pretty interesting but with the whole spread like you are seeing you know whole cities coming out and

00:04:44.560 demonstrating but then the next day them being empty so it's like almost that like they have an idea of

00:04:50.720 how far they can push but we are still in the early stages so it's like are we going to see continued

00:04:57.040 you know demonstrations and protests is it going to be a long-term thing that really rises up and i think

00:05:03.120 um the people just have really had enough right it's like they've been under so many lockdowns so

00:05:08.960 many extended lockdowns and then the fire in Arumqi the capital of Xinjiang that i think really set this

00:05:16.080 off where the fire started on the 15th floor of the building and then because of the building being

00:05:22.320 locked down many people couldn't get out the doors were sealed and then the fire trucks couldn't get

00:05:26.800 close enough to get the water so you see videos of the fire trucks with like really powerful streams of

00:05:32.000 water going over basically another building but not being able to reach the main one and so with that

00:05:38.000 it's like really sparked but what is interesting with the protest is like they're not just saying

00:05:42.160 end the coveted lockdowns right china's zero covet policy they're saying end the ccp and calling for

00:05:47.520 xi jinping to step down so they're really calling for freedom but then on that note too it's like a

00:05:52.800 lot of these are students right so they might have never heard of the tiananmen square massacre like

00:05:58.800 most of them probably never had even if they had parents who knew because in china it was like super

00:06:03.120 locked down right it's like no one knew about it even people in china at that time unless you were part of

00:06:08.240 it so it's like these students maybe think they're trailblazers it's like we don't know the extent of

00:06:14.080 how much they know like probably some have vpns and are able to get out but it's like it is a very

00:06:19.440 interesting thing to be watching and witnessing right now really incredible really yeah so you know

00:06:27.200 xi jinping is by all you know everybody knows him as a strong man leader um so would you say that the

00:06:34.560 protests right now are much a critique of his authoritarian rule as they are of the communist

00:06:39.760 regime in general i think there's like both so you are seeing you know the people just having had

00:06:47.040 enough but i think it also goes back to the why we're seeing these videos right i think part of it is

00:06:52.000 the internal party fighting so the people who are in power but unhappy that xi jinping is like really

00:06:58.960 doing something no one else really was able to i think on unless you compare him to like uh mao zidong

00:07:04.320 the original communist leaders like no one other after that because they were like oh we're presidents

00:07:09.840 right it's like they're trying to use that term being like oh we're gonna have term limits but he

00:07:14.400 just broke that and so the other you know supporters of say jian zeming who just died or like

00:07:20.160 hu jintao and the other ones they're not happy with that and so there's a lot of talks of the in-party

00:07:25.440 fighting so you kind of have two levels you have the political level the internal fighting and then

00:07:30.560 you have the level on where the public is right where they've just really really had enough so it's

00:07:35.920 like seeing how those two will interact could determine what happens going forward but i think

00:07:41.680 we are seeing you know more of an awareness because with xi jinping coming in his latest speech after the

00:07:47.840 20th party congress he was really focusing um and increasing the intellectual and ideological rhetoric

00:07:55.680 and really closing off on the economic front and so he's basically making everyone be like you're gonna

00:08:01.280 live on less and be happy about it right but with this communist society has always been about giving

00:08:06.560 the people just enough so they don't revolt but not enough that they're you know able to think for

00:08:12.480 themselves or like live well so it's like a really precarious time because it's like asking them to

00:08:18.080 live on less but be happy about it and so i think we're starting to see people just being like no that's

00:08:23.200 not acceptable so you know here's a question speaking about the economy um why is it that um uh i mean data

00:08:31.120 from china often tends to be you know uh you know you have to take it with a grain of salt to some extent

00:08:38.000 but you know when you have a zero covet policy and entire regions are under lockdown how is economic

00:08:44.000 activity even happening right so with that it's been going way down but they did come up with one

00:08:52.240 thing which is a like a closed loop so they force the people to be locked down in the factory so you can

00:09:00.400 still work you just can't leave it and so that's how they've been able to get certain sectors to keep

00:09:06.240 working but even with that it's like you're already seeing a lot of issues so with like the foxconn

00:09:12.080 protests recently right that's a massive apple assembly line so now you're seeing apple saying

00:09:17.680 there's going to be delays in the iphone 14 because of that and apple as a company saying they're going

00:09:22.640 to you know start moving production to india you know and other countries and so apple's not the only

00:09:28.400 one you're seeing other companies also struggling like tesla wasn't reaching quite the goals they

00:09:32.800 thought they were going to hit in china after opening their latest gigafactory there right so

00:09:37.600 it's many companies like external western companies are looking at this situation with

00:09:42.960 the continued zero covet lockdowns even with the closed loops but everything they're like is this

00:09:48.320 even sustainable because especially after the pandemic we saw so many supply chain issues right like

00:09:53.680 we felt it everywhere around the world with say either ppe the personal protective equipment or

00:09:59.280 just in general right all the goods were being slow like last year's christmas holiday season was

00:10:04.240 like such a mess because you know all the all our all our everything was just stuck in ships and not

00:10:10.080 able to enter port so yeah i think in general you are seeing from every level from the consumer level

00:10:16.160 and then the business and then like all the levels just reconsidering so and then china's um economic

00:10:22.240 situation in general was already kind of struggling you have the real estate crisis right the biggest most

00:10:28.080 infamous one i guess would be evergrande and so you have so many of that and the real estate

00:10:33.040 sector in china makes up about 30 of their gdp so it's a really big issue and so you see all these

00:10:39.600 different sectors so is it enough to really topple it and like really create fundamental change i think

00:10:45.920 it is still too early to tell but we are seeing changes like there are more and more people talking about

00:10:52.240 decoupling uh there yeah there's been talk about reshoring uh for a very long time and i i i you know

00:11:00.320 countries like india and vietnam were supposed to benefit from that uh from from companies moving away

00:11:06.480 like apple moving away but uh i think it's happening it's it's but it's it's still very slow i think china

00:11:12.640 is still my sense is that china is still attractive but uh but you know if it goes on like this i think i think

00:11:18.720 it's going to become less and less attractive um uh you know especially with this political

00:11:24.800 instability um you know just uh taking a step back from the current protest protest western observers

00:11:32.240 often point to this cognitive dissonance between increased economic freedom and uh the possibility to

00:11:38.720 get uh to amass great wealth in china um against the absence of any political freedoms uh and many western

00:11:46.240 observers have predicted for a very long time that this tension this inherent tension in the chinese

00:11:51.840 model would uh would would be its unraveling and cause the system to explode essentially but so far

00:11:57.600 that hasn't happened um and and more generally predictions of doom and gloom about china uh by western

00:12:06.160 experts just have ended up being wrong what is it about china that so many of us in the west just get

00:12:12.800 it wrong time and time again well i think a big part of that goes back to actually when jones and

00:12:19.200 ming took power right and then really opened up china by having you know china enter the world trade

00:12:25.120 organization so many you know the us and many free market countries were like oh this will help

00:12:31.360 you know help with engagement and really help liberalize and democratize china that didn't happen

00:12:37.360 but instead what happened was like the free markets became less free they became dependent on the chinese

00:12:43.760 market so there's the cheap labor costs which now many are like oh you know we can move to perhaps

00:12:49.440 india or mexico even you know anywhere else but the other issue with that is the intellectual property so

00:12:56.400 throughout that we have lost like not just the us but like so many companies have lost all of their

00:13:01.600 intellectual property to china just in that process so just having to like produce in china you have

00:13:07.760 to make things there you have to often join joint ventures if you want to make more capital and then

00:13:13.040 what happens is they're like well you have to give us something so then you get you know you have to

00:13:17.600 hand over your patents or your trade secrets and then so now it's like even if you wanted to pull away

00:13:23.600 well you can't because now china owns your intellectual property rights and so there's that issue it's like

00:13:29.120 like it's not only just the labor costs right it's like okay many people are like oh just manufacture

00:13:34.240 in usa you know just like make it all here it'll be great but it's like there's so many different

00:13:40.160 factors involved right there's the sheer amount of money you have to put in just to create the plant

00:13:46.320 here again right it's like that's a lot of billions just to do that and then train the people

00:13:52.080 right it's like we don't really have that workforce and china's been sending people over for years

00:13:57.360 like in the universities and like all the levels and then often maybe not the people themselves

00:14:02.960 knowingly but they're used as spies to then take that so it's like there's so many different sectors

00:14:07.440 and so now many companies are facing that issue where they're like we really want to um offshore like

00:14:13.200 onshore bring it back but we can't because either just it's just it's not just the labor costs it's also

00:14:19.680 you know just the ip they don't have it anymore and so there's so many different issues but that being

00:14:24.880 said i feel like we are seeing you know movement towards it's like you have different countries

00:14:30.480 really evaluating that reevaluating that and being like is this sustainable right because i think back

00:14:37.600 then when it first started there was a lot of short-term thinking it's like oh look at all this

00:14:41.280 money like china it's like this magical land 1.4 billion people you know if you just get one dollar

00:14:47.120 from all of those people oh we'd all be rich i didn't really pan out for anyone and so now there's a lot

00:14:53.120 of um hard looks at everything being like okay what can we do now so you're starting to see different

00:15:00.080 things being implemented like maybe small steps in the right direction so who knows how much it'll take

00:15:07.360 before it starts snowballing into actual tangible action but there are little signs i think

00:15:13.920 uh why would uh xi jinping do this i mean it's like a self-inflicted wound right i mean surely he knows

00:15:20.080 what is happening in the rest of the world everybody else is moving on economic activity is uh picking

00:15:25.440 up um um and uh whereas in china people are being locked down in factories this uh this there are

00:15:33.200 protests now um what is what's he thinking what is the what is the strategy here i think ultimately for

00:15:41.680 him it's about political power and control so since the very beginning of the pandemic they've been

00:15:47.600 telling their people because everything in china is controlled by the party right so they've been

00:15:51.760 telling the people like oh this virus is like the most dangerous thing and there's almost a stigma

00:15:57.520 around it so if you get the virus right you're moved to these quarantine camps that they build and

00:16:03.200 anyone in close contact to you even though they don't have symptoms they don't have the virus they're

00:16:08.000 also put there so it's all about like this fear in the people right and then they've been told

00:16:14.160 since the pandemic started like look at what the western countries or other countries are doing

00:16:18.480 they're really dumb they're getting it wrong we're doing it right and we have so few cases because

00:16:24.080 like from our own reporting they're not revealing the true number there's no way it's at 4 000 right

00:16:29.680 but they're telling their people that right and then they point to the numbers in like america for

00:16:34.480 instance they're like look you know over like half a million like all these a million you know

00:16:38.880 all these cases what a disaster look at how great we're doing but two years later can they suddenly

00:16:45.280 tell their people oh sorry we were wrong right it's like they're not gonna admit that but within

00:16:51.440 it it's like are you gonna see maybe other sectors stepping forward when then without being silenced

00:16:57.600 right you did have the you know medical journalists or just independent journalists in the beginning of

00:17:03.120 the pandemic trying to sound the alarms and then they were you know accused of spreading rumors the

00:17:08.240 regime's favorite line like spreading rumors and get sentenced and then mysteriously die um and so

00:17:15.760 it's it's ultimately about power and control and that's like the whole thing with the communist party

00:17:21.360 they're like you know all communism it's for the people we care about the people but it really isn't

00:17:27.040 but the issue is there's kind of like two layers of everything so it's like you know on the front

00:17:32.560 end what they tell the outside world you know we so care about the people so then you have um

00:17:37.680 westerners like henry kissinger or like elon elon musk too or uh canadian's prime minister trudeau

00:17:43.440 being like wow you know these communist leaders they really do just care about the people but then if

00:17:48.480 you were actually to go to china and see what's happening not like the acts that they show the outside

00:17:54.800 people if you actually see how the people are living yeah they're being treated absolutely horribly so

00:18:01.040 there's that disconnect and then like two and then like hidden layers and the two levels of speech

00:18:07.440 and everything so but with the the pandemic and the zero covet it's ultimately about control and then

00:18:13.440 it's like he's he's you know dug his stake on this hill he he just can't suddenly go back like that was

00:18:20.160 one of his biggest things and then in the 20th party congress speech he reiterated like oh we're gonna

00:18:25.360 wipe out covet like you can't just suddenly be like oh sorry guys i was wrong we're gonna follow america

00:18:32.560 and so you know it's like he's put his all of his eggs in that basket yeah follow the zero covet so yeah

00:18:40.640 extraordinary um you know taking a geopolitical view now uh china has become increasingly uh assertive

00:18:47.840 and is directly going head to head with the us uh to try to become the world's next superpower uh russia is

00:18:54.960 preoccupied these days uh with the war in ukraine uh so china is really kind of the only really uh

00:19:02.080 only main threat now to us hegemony in the world uh how do you see this contest playing out in the

00:19:07.840 coming years i think the biggest issue with that is um from say the american or more western perspective

00:19:17.120 normally we think of war as on the kinetic level so america doesn't see themselves in a war with china

00:19:24.640 you know they're like oh there's maybe a cold war the furnace they see it but there's like oh there's

00:19:29.680 no bombs there's no military conflict but the real thing is like the chinese regime has been at war with

00:19:36.000 america for at least 30 years but it's through unrestricted warfare so that was based on a book by

00:19:42.320 two chinese military colonels in 1999 and it has like 24 different warfares and it's like through the

00:19:48.160 media through financial means to the law like the hong kong national security law that is no legal you

00:19:55.360 know anyone in the legal field will say that's legit but they just try all these different things and

00:19:59.920 then they even have police centers around the world right where they can use that to pressure dissidents

00:20:05.680 or human rights activists and everything outside of their own country and force them back to china so

00:20:11.200 you have all these different things and then the intellectual property or the influencing our

00:20:16.160 education system right with the confucius institutes and everything so they're already you know almost

00:20:22.480 like rewriting us and the whole point of unrestricted warfare is you divide a country internally and you

00:20:30.320 make it so unstable that you don't even have to come in with the tanks or like the bombs like they're

00:20:35.840 already destroying themselves and you don't have to do anything so we're already seeing that playing out

00:20:40.720 in certain aspects right you had like the black lives matter protests the peaceful protests last

00:20:46.880 year you have the antifa movement and the critical race theory in schools all these teachings being

00:20:52.320 like oh america is inherently racist it's a terrible place you know and it's like how dare you talk about

00:20:58.080 the what's happening in china right you have all these different things and then it's moving us

00:21:03.200 further and further away and it's like there are actual threats out there that will impact

00:21:08.720 generations to come but instead you know we're destroying ourselves essentially and so you know

00:21:14.880 that's kind of where it is right now but will our leaders wake up in time hopefully right that's uh

00:21:21.200 there's we're not done yet right there's still a chance um but right now it's a very precarious situation

00:21:28.800 yeah i mean speaking of leaders here in canada our leader um you know justin trudeau has expressed

00:21:34.720 some admiration for china's china's model many years ago um i don't know if he still believes in

00:21:41.600 that uh but he expressed great uh admiration for china's dictatorship uh but you know uh right now i

00:21:48.640 mean i uh many observers have pointed out that the government here doesn't seem to have a very clear

00:21:53.600 strategy when it comes to dealing with china as you're probably aware we had uh the relations uh got

00:21:59.680 complicated uh over uh just just before the pandemic when the two michaels were um uh were

00:22:06.640 essentially held were held prisoners uh in in china and they were accused of being spies um i that

00:22:13.760 relationship hasn't really recovered uh uh much the two michaels are now back in canada um canada

00:22:20.240 doesn't seem to have too many levers um there seems to be this tension between uh strong economic

00:22:26.800 ties with china china is still pretty uh attractive um uh on the one hand and then you have this desire

00:22:33.600 to contain china's expanded expansionist tendencies where does it leave countries like canada and

00:22:39.680 dealing with china well it's a tricky situation right it's like as you laid out there's the economic

00:22:46.480 side and i think the the main issue china has the chinese communist party has really figured out is the

00:22:52.800 elite capture so you have people who are just in it for their self-interest right so they're figured

00:22:58.320 out like oh if we pay them enough money and so you have that in every government like not just

00:23:04.080 canada but also in america and so that really impacts then the policies so there are people who

00:23:10.800 want to you know contain it and make sure we're not ending up in a war down the road or losing more

00:23:16.320 but then you have people in power who are bought out by the chinese regime um you have in every place

00:23:23.680 right so that's what's really tricky you have business leader or in america like people on wall

00:23:29.280 street people in the financial sector like even if congress wants to do something then you have the

00:23:34.160 banks come in like our pension funds for the military are invested in chinese companies so you know

00:23:40.240 it's like it's an insane situation where people who fought their whole lives for freedom or against

00:23:45.520 communism are actually helping that regime persecute people or you know do these atrocities do these

00:23:53.200 human rights abuses and until that's really looked at and until the cash flow is stopped to the

00:24:01.120 regime it's going to be really hard to make any changes no matter like how much people talk and be

00:24:06.240 like oh we're gonna put some more ships here or like oh we're gonna you know build some more navy

00:24:11.760 submarines it's like until that cash flow is ended it's going to be really hard to see any real

00:24:17.360 improvement yeah well one final question uh tiffany um you know back to um our favorite uh pandemic

00:24:26.080 measure zero covet policy uh with the exception of australia and new zealand no western country uh pursued

00:24:32.400 it although uh there was a lot of uh there were calls by uh some well-known medical uh public health

00:24:39.280 officials here for such a policy right here in canada we came very close to it actually um there's no

00:24:44.720 question the western response to covet including lockdowns and vaccine mandates um were driven by

00:24:51.040 the authoritarian chinese model um if you remember like i think it was italy that first initiated the

00:24:57.280 lockdowns and that was basically inspired by china and then everybody else followed suit do you think the

00:25:02.960 west made a mistake in following china's lead and how to deal with the pandemic um there's this paradox

00:25:08.880 here that the west is supposed to be democratic and liberal um but oftentimes is attracted to the

00:25:14.240 chinese approach um in this is happening in the context of a very uh illiberal and undemocratic

00:25:21.200 society what do you make of that i think the biggest issue there is we didn't realize you know that

00:25:28.320 the who had been influenced to that extent and you know the lack of transparency and in the west it's

00:25:34.720 like we believe like oh if you say something it's true right and so we believed what was as in the

00:25:40.640 u.s government all these countries we believed what was coming out of china it's like okay yeah and then

00:25:46.320 the who and then we didn't realize that you know that was behind it all was the chinese communist party

00:25:53.440 and just covering up their tracks and we still don't know right we still don't know exactly how it started

00:25:59.040 what happened and perhaps we will never know because of all the cover-ups and a lack of transparency

00:26:05.280 and i think because of this process it's been a great example of how the chinese regime has been

00:26:10.800 able to influence and put its own model in other places to the point that you have a country like

00:26:17.040 america that says it stands for freedom with people just following rules and like hiding in their homes

00:26:22.640 and even calling out neighbors and stuff and turning on each other and on like now we've wiped out

00:26:28.560 decades of improvement in the academic sector right it's like we're gonna feel these effects

00:26:33.040 for years to come we don't even know the extent of the damage yet and that all came from i think a

00:26:39.680 bit being too naive and not realizing just how to deal like how insidious something like the chinese

00:26:47.440 communist regime can be and realizing that so many institutions around the world have actually been

00:26:53.760 influenced and infiltrated and hopefully going forward we'll learn from that um and not do that

00:26:59.920 mistake again uh but you know that's i guess what fingers crossed like hopefully we've learned from

00:27:06.640 history i i hope so too well um on that note tiffany thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your

00:27:15.600 wonderful insights with us uh it's been a real pleasure and i really hope to have you back on my show

00:27:21.200 sometime soon of course it's been my honor thank you

Juno News - December 01, 2022

The Fight for Freedom in China (ft. Tiffany Meier)

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