Juno News - The Future of Confederation Debate

00:00:00.000 Hi everyone and welcome to our live debate on the future of Canadian Confederation. I'm your host

00:00:13.240 Candice Malcolm, journalist, author, and founder of True North, and it is my sincere pleasure to be

00:00:19.360 hosting and moderating this evening's debate on the motion, be it resolved, Alberta and Saskatchewan

00:00:26.120 would be better off independent. This event is co-sponsored by True North Centre for Public

00:00:31.460 Policy, which publishes the new site tnc.news, focused on Canadian politics and current affairs,

00:00:38.760 as well as Civitas Canada, which is a society of intellectually-minded Canadians who host

00:00:44.400 conferences to talk about ideas. This event is part of the True North Speaker Series and also part of

00:00:50.820 the Civitas Digital Salon Series. So before I move to introduce the issue and tonight's speakers,

00:00:58.180 I'd like to poll our live audience to find out where everyone stands before the debate begins.

00:01:03.580 So to our live audience members, there are two questions that I'm going to put to you to answer

00:01:08.480 now. The first one is, do you support the motion? Motion, of course, is be it resolved, Alberta and

00:01:15.620 Saskatchewan would be better off independent? Keep in mind, the motion does not ask what is best for

00:01:21.460 Canada, but it asks what's best for Alberta and Saskatchewan. And the second poll question to our

00:01:28.140 live audience is, depending on what you hear tonight during tonight's live debate, are you open to changing

00:01:34.880 your mind? So we'll give everyone a bit of time to respond and answer those questions, and then we will

00:01:41.460 reveal the results of these polls prior to the start of the debate. We are incredibly excited to be

00:01:49.140 hosting this event. It's a very timely event considering where we are as a country right now.

00:01:54.820 We have a prime minister who seems committed to re-engineering our economy away from the industries

00:02:00.500 that drive the prairie provinces and sees no limit on how much money he's willing to borrow and spend,

00:02:06.820 and no restraints on the power and the ability of the federal government to fix every single problem

00:02:12.500 in the country, real or imagined. As was pointed out by Civitas members Ted Morton, Tom Flanagan,

00:02:20.500 and Jack Mintz in their new book, Moment of Truth, How to Think About Alberta's Future, and I just

00:02:26.020 recently learned that one of our speakers tonight, Barry Cooper, has a chapter in that book. This is what

00:02:31.220 they said. They said, since 1960, Ottawa has taken a net $630 billion out of Alberta. Alberta's

00:02:39.060 jurisdictions over natural resource development have been eroded by federal policy encroachments,

00:02:43.860 such as Bill C-69 and the carbon tax. The predictable result, a collapse of investor confidence,

00:02:50.260 and a $100 billion exodus of capital investment from Western Canada. In Alberta, unemployment and

00:02:57.140 bankruptcies have soared." Well, it's no wonder a February 2020 poll found that 78% of people in

00:03:05.540 Alberta and Saskatchewan believe that Ottawa has lost touch with average people. Likewise, a survey

00:03:11.860 conducted by the Western Standard in May found that 41% of Albertans stated they would either definitely

00:03:18.100 or probably vote to secede. So while Laurentian elites ignore the issue, and while my colleagues in the

00:03:24.420 mainstream media deliberately paint the movement as fringe and in a negative light, the reality is

00:03:29.780 an increasing number of public figures, including prominent business leaders, top academics, and

00:03:35.460 popular politicians, are all beginning to advocate seriously for Western independence. So what is the

00:03:42.180 future of Confederation? That's what we're here to talk about and discuss today. We have to argue in

00:03:48.900 favor of an independent Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have Dr. Barry Cooper. Barry Cooper is a professor

00:03:55.460 of political science at the University of Calgary and a fourth generation Albertan. He studies

00:04:00.580 classical and contemporary Western political philosophy and is the author, editor, or translator of

00:04:06.260 35 books. Here to argue against the motion for an independent Alberta and Saskatchewan is the Honorable

00:04:12.980 Stockwell Day. Stockwell Day is former leader of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, leader of the Canadian

00:04:19.380 Alliance Party and former member of parliament serving from 2000 to 2011. Before that, from 1986 to 2000,

00:04:27.300 Mr. Day represented Red Deer North in the Alberta legislature where he served in Ralph Klein's progressive

00:04:33.460 conservative government in a variety of senior roles. So thank you so much to both of you for being here

00:04:39.540 and for leading this important conversation. Tonight's debate will run for exactly one hour,

00:04:45.700 minus the five minutes or so that I've been speaking here, and finishing at precisely 8 p.m.

00:04:51.060 here in the eastern time zone, which is 6 p.m. in Alberta and Saskatchewan, 5 p.m. on the west coast.

00:04:58.580 Each speaker will have 10 minutes to provide their introductory remarks, followed by five minutes each to

00:05:04.020 respond to their opponent's remarks. They'll be followed by 10 minutes or so of open debate

00:05:09.300 and then we'll conclude tonight's debate with five minutes each for closing remarks. Without further

00:05:15.300 delay, before we get to the debate, one last thing, sorry, let's reveal the results of the poll just to

00:05:22.340 see what our live audience is feeling. So on the question, do you support the motion? We have 64% saying

00:05:31.300 yes they do and 36% saying they do not support the motion. Then on the question of whether you're willing to

00:05:38.900 change your mind, it looks like we have a pretty open-minded group here tonight. We have 84% of

00:05:44.020 people viewing saying that yes, they are willing to change their mind. That's great. 16% are unwilling.

00:05:50.340 And so without further delay, let's move right to it. We'll give it over to Dr. Barry Cooper for his

00:05:57.940 10-minute introductory remarks. Over to you, Barry Cooper. Well, thank you, Candice. I'll begin from

00:06:05.780 quoting the opening paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.

00:06:09.380 When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political

00:06:15.300 bonds which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth,

00:06:20.340 the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them,

00:06:25.300 a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which

00:06:31.460 impel them to the separation. And then comes the part about all men being created equal,

00:06:39.140 the unalienable rights of human beings that governments secure, and governments derive

00:06:45.300 their just powers from the consent of the governed. When governments are destructive of those ends,

00:06:51.780 it is the right of the people to abolish it, even though, and this is another quote from the third paragraph,

00:06:58.100 second paragraph. All experience has shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils

00:07:05.060 are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a

00:07:11.620 long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them

00:07:20.660 under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such a government

00:07:26.980 and to provide new guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance

00:07:34.340 of these colonies, and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems

00:07:41.460 of government. Now when the declaration was written, the colonies were still part of the British Empire.

00:07:48.020 It is therefore a British more than an American document, and its provisions can be adopted with

00:07:56.820 minor modifications by us. Particularly important then and now are the long train of abuses and usurpations.

00:08:07.460 We all know about the tanker ban, the absence of pipelines, all this is very common knowledge. It's the tip

00:08:13.620 of the iceberg, however. Canada is trying to impoverish Alberta. As Ted Morton said, my distinguished

00:08:23.060 colleague, the problems are structural. They're not problems of bad policy. And in fact, it started long

00:08:31.060 before Canada had anything to do with the West. The Hudson Bay Company lands were British plantation under the

00:08:39.380 imperial crown. They were ruled from London without the consent of the inhabitants, whether they were

00:08:45.700 First Nations or settlers or officers and employees of the company. Then came the transfer in the 1870s.

00:08:54.260 It was not a purchase by Canada, although Canadians will often tell you that the way the Americans bought

00:08:59.380 Alaska. Louis Riel argued in 1870 that the company and the imperial crown had abandoned Red River. Canada

00:09:08.820 thought otherwise in 1870 and then 15 years later when it deployed military force to secure Red River Colony.

00:09:17.860 My first point then is that Canada inherited the British imperial approach to the West,

00:09:25.380 and they have never let it go. MacDonald said we were a Canadian colony. Alexander Kennedy Isbister,

00:09:33.460 a name that is probably known only in Winnipeg nowadays, said we were a colony of a colony. To put it bluntly,

00:09:41.620 Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba were never provinces like the others. Certainly not in 1905,

00:09:49.220 certainly not in 1930 either, even if they were formally equal to the other provinces, but never substantively.

00:09:55.940 They have never been seen in Ontario and Quebec, in Laurentian Canada, as problems like Ontario and

00:10:04.180 Quebec or even British Columbia. Since the significance of the long train of abuses and usurpations is

00:10:12.820 probably pretty well known, and as Candace mentioned in Moment of Truth, the new book that is actually out,

00:10:19.060 I think now, edited by Mintz Morton and Flanagan, you can see this in, if you don't know about it,

00:10:26.500 you can see it in incredible detail. This explains why Alberta statutes were so frequently disallowed

00:10:34.900 or reserved in the 1930s under social credit. It explains the national energy policy. It explains the

00:10:41.380 outright hatred for Stephen Harper by the Laurentian media. It explains the condescending

00:10:48.820 attitudes of central Canada when Alberta didn't vote Liberal in 2019. So, what is to be done?

00:11:01.620 As Lenin said, Lenin's great question, what is to be done? Well, one thing for sure,

00:11:07.460 Laurentian Canada has no interest ever in treating Alberta and Saskatchewan as normal provinces. They

00:11:17.220 never have, they never will. They do not like us one little bit, and the reason is that we do not share

00:11:24.420 the same image and vision of the country as Canadians do, Laurentian Canadians. We think of ourselves as

00:11:32.580 citizens, not as Colonials. Silly us. They don't see us that way. Another thing for sure, Laurentian Canada 0.97

00:11:43.220 will never permit a renegotiation of the terms of Confederation, not even changes to Section 36 of the

00:11:50.420 Constitution Act of 1982, which governs equalization, or rather the confiscation of Western wealth to be

00:11:59.460 redistributed chiefly to Quebec. That's another example, another car in the long train of abuses.

00:12:07.780 Nor will they ever negotiate under the terms of the Clarity Act. Read it sometime. It seems to indicate

00:12:14.340 that a clear result on a clear referendum question will compel the government of Canada to negotiate.

00:12:21.460 But who decides what's a clear question? The House of Commons. And it does so before any vote is taken.

00:12:28.980 And who decides what a clear majority, if the House of Commons decides it's a clear question? Why? The House

00:12:35.060 of Commons, of course. And it does so after the vote is taken. So the Government of Canada has two vetoes.

00:12:43.140 Ask yourself, do you think they will use them? Do you think they might even disallow any referendum

00:12:48.580 legislation, if Alberta and Saskatchewan pass such a document? The questions answer themselves. Of course they will.

00:12:58.580 So now what? We'll go back to 1776. The colonies, the 13 colonies had to rely on Spain and more on France

00:13:08.980 for help. We will have to rely on help too. And the only help available

00:13:16.180 comes from the United States, whether we like it or not.

00:13:20.500 We will have to get their assistance and then we can gain our independence. Thanks.

00:13:25.460 Thank you so much, Dr. Barry Cooper. And now for your 10-minute opening remark, over to you, Stockwell Day.

00:13:36.660 Well, thank you, Candice. And thank you to True North and also to Civitas for putting together a series

00:13:42.340 like this. It's a great opportunity for all of us to really consider things that have pretty

00:13:48.980 far-reaching consequences if we really want to put them to test. I want to say right from the

00:13:53.780 beginning that the grievances that Albertans share and bear to this day are real. And I share them and

00:14:00.500 I feel them. I mean, we can talk about the very founding of Canada constitutionally in 1967.

00:14:07.540 It was the Liberals who dragged their feet. And it wasn't until 1905, as we know, that Alberta was

00:14:13.060 even allowed in along with Saskatchewan. That was deliberate foot dragging on the Liberal part. It was

00:14:19.860 only when a Conservative leader was, Opposition leader was threatening to do something different,

00:14:23.860 there was finally some action. So right from the beginning, there were bad feelings and bad

00:14:28.180 memories beginning to be etched into the psyche of Albertans. Barry's already mentioned, in the 30s,

00:14:34.180 in a time of devastation, time of depression, when frankly, the banking system was not helping out

00:14:39.940 the West, was not helping out Alberta. Alberta came up with some, some creative, controversial,

00:14:45.220 but creative ways to try and help Albertans get through that crisis. And the federal government

00:14:50.660 took unprecedented action. They actually activated a section of constitution, section 56 said,

00:14:56.660 it's called the Disallowance Act, slamming Alberta for trying to get ahead in some creative ways. In 1949,

00:15:03.540 with the Alberta First policy, here again was the Alberta government trying to stave off the, really,

00:15:09.300 the confiscation of the natural resources by export through federal policies at terrible low prices.

00:15:15.060 They wanted to put in some restrictions of that. Again, the, and in that particular case, the federal government

00:15:20.740 even openly talked about sending in the military to stop that. These are the types of things that are,

00:15:26.260 that are in our memories in Alberta and the children and the grandchildren now.

00:15:30.820 And I was living in Alberta all through those years of the National Energy Program.

00:15:35.220 I saw firsthand friends and neighbors and within my own family, complete and utter devastation and

00:15:41.620 destruction. People losing their homes, people losing their businesses, people losing their lives,

00:15:46.580 frankly, out of suicide because of the extremity of the situation. And again, no response in any kind

00:15:53.940 of a meaningful way from the Liberals. And again, we see it repeated just a year, a little over a year ago.

00:16:01.940 Here we have the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan coming to the federal government and begging for

00:16:08.500 a change. They weren't even demanding independence. They were just asking for a change in the equalization

00:16:13.700 formula because we're in Alberta now completely devastated, not just in the oil and gas, now COVID added

00:16:20.420 on top of it. And what does the prime minister say? Talk to me again in 2024. After how many more

00:16:26.980 Albertans have been crushed, businesses lost and absolute devastation continues. So this all sounds

00:16:34.500 like I'm about to agree with Barry that we've just got to plunge ahead and separate and move to

00:16:41.300 independence. Here's why I'm saying no to that and taking the other side of the resolution is because

00:16:46.500 it's that type of appeal simply won't work. In the worst of times for Quebec, after repudiation by the

00:16:54.340 Meech Lake Accord and the Charlottetown Accord, other things that were taking place, and they had a

00:16:59.060 strongly sovereignist movement within Quebec and a strong and popular party, they pushed hard in 95,

00:17:05.940 never would there have been a greater time. And Quebec has always been the most open, Quebec has always

00:17:10.660 been the most open to that type of direction. Now it was close and it was dangerously close because of the

00:17:15.780 the neglect of the federal liberals, but it didn't work. Even in Quebec, which arguably could be the

00:17:22.580 most open to separation, they couldn't get the vote. We won't get, you won't get the vote in Alberta,

00:17:29.060 in my view. Now I'm saying that not presumptively. I'm saying if the people moved in that direction,

00:17:33.860 then I would hope the government, of course, would support it. This is a matter of the people's choice.

00:17:38.740 But you're going to have to be honest with people and explain the difficulties in getting there,

00:17:44.820 in getting to even the place where you could get a vote, first of all. Barry's already touched on

00:17:49.540 between the Clarity Act and the Supreme Court decisions. Number one, the feds get to decide

00:17:56.740 the question, if it's fair or not, they get to decide what percentage is going to result in a vote.

00:18:03.300 And then you've got to go to the other provinces and you've got to convince them that the best thing to

00:18:08.980 do is for Alberta and maybe Saskatchewan to leave. You know, I'm an optimist, but I'm also a realist.

00:18:16.820 And convincing the population of Alberta in its present constitution, constitutional, the way it's

00:18:22.340 set up, you're not going to do it. I appreciate Barry leading off with talking about and reading from the

00:18:27.620 Declaration of Independence and talking about the colonies. And I agree 100% with those principles of

00:18:33.220 freedom. But a growing cohort of voters in the 20-year-old to 40 range, they will not countenance

00:18:40.900 that kind of discussion, even in Alberta. As a matter of fact, there's a growing movement towards

00:18:45.380 people are wanting, unfortunately, more reliance on government thanks to these, some of the terrible

00:18:50.340 policies from the federal liberals. But you're not going to appeal to the voting population,

00:18:55.380 an increasingly large one, in Alberta, with that type of an approach. You can appeal if you talk

00:19:03.140 about gaining more sovereignty, if I can use that word, by turning the economy around in ways that

00:19:09.860 are still possible provincially. So if you're going to push for independence, you've got to really be

00:19:14.900 honest with people and tell them what they're looking at. And tell them too that they're going to

00:19:19.060 have to entertain questions. One of the pushbacks in Quebec on the independence question was when it hit

00:19:24.660 them right in the face and caught them by surprise when it was presented to them that there were large

00:19:28.660 numbers in Quebec who said, if the province of Quebec separates, we in certain regions in Quebec,

00:19:35.220 then we want to separate from Quebec. And the point was made again in court that if Quebec is saying

00:19:40.900 Canada is divisible, then they have to accept that the province of Quebec can be further divided by

00:19:47.220 people who don't want to leave. So what if you did ever get to a vote in Alberta? And what if there were

00:19:52.900 large sections, even though it might be a minority vote, for instance, what if Alberta being split,

00:19:59.140 let's say I'm being, this is hypothetical, let's say Red Deer and North said, we want to stay.

00:20:05.940 And Red Deer and South said, we want to go, we want out. And the South carried the day,

00:20:11.380 let's say 55% of the vote. Are you prepared for the reality that there is a hint constitutionally at the

00:20:17.940 Supreme Court that the upper half of Alberta could actually petition to stay in Canada?

00:20:24.260 And what about First Nations who wouldn't necessarily, some would want to leave. We've got,

00:20:29.540 Alberta probably has one of the largest percentage of First Nations groups who are entrepreneurial,

00:20:35.220 who move ahead on wanting to see development for their own people. So even within First Nations,

00:20:41.380 I think you'd see a split. How are you going to deal with that? So if you're talking about a move to

00:20:46.100 independence, you've got to be honest with Albertans about this. And I just don't think it's possible.

00:20:51.940 Where there is possibility is in what Jason Kenney is doing right now, in saying if we don't get,

00:20:57.700 if Alberta does not get certain changes made, then we definitely want to see a change in the

00:21:02.740 equalization formula. We want to see that renegotiated. And I know Barry said, and I appreciate

00:21:10.180 his views related to the Laurentian elite. I have those same concerns. It's one thing to hit them

00:21:15.780 with, we're going to separate, we're going to propose it, and we're going to see if you get on

00:21:18.980 side. That would, of course, create opposition. And not just with the Laurentian elite. I believe

00:21:23.700 across the country that Canadians, as miserably as they might feel they're being governed,

00:21:28.100 and as horribly as they might feel they're being taxed. I just don't think they're ready to,

00:21:32.900 as it were, toss in the towel. But people are more open to a discussion related to these formulas

00:21:39.140 that can result in monies properly going back to Alberta. I guess one of the positives about

00:21:45.780 something that's negative is the complexity of that equalization formula. So start talking about that,

00:21:50.420 and a lot of people will just go away. And then if you've got people who are focused on it,

00:21:54.020 you can get things done for Alberta. When I was Minister of Finance in Alberta,

00:21:57.860 I worked very closely in inter-prudential meetings with whoever was the Quebec Minister of Finance,

00:22:03.540 Bernard Landry at the time. And we allied. We were able to ally against the federal government and

00:22:11.140 actually get some bona fide changes that were positive for Alberta. So the way forward is to

00:22:18.500 really work hard in terms of the formulas and in terms of the return of capital to Alberta. And we do

00:22:27.300 this, not through sovereignty, but as Francois Legault, the present premier in Quebec, he has clearly

00:22:33.940 said they have abandoned the notion of sovereignty because he knows most of the citizens don't want

00:22:40.100 it. But he said, he said this, resolutely we are moving to increased autonomy. We need to link arms,

00:22:47.620 not just with that type of philosophy, but the type of things Quebec and others are doing. Increased autonomy

00:22:54.100 can get some of these grievances addressed and hopefully move Alberta to better prosperity.

00:23:00.500 We'll now move on to a more formal rebuttal. So we'll turn it over to you, Dr. Barry Cooper,

00:23:06.980 for five minutes or so to directly respond to anything that you just heard Stockwell Day say.

00:23:13.300 Thanks, Yanis. Stock and I agree that the grievances won't go away. I think what we disagree

00:23:21.700 about is whether Canada is willing to address them. They have no interest in addressing them.

00:23:28.580 We have tried everything. We have tried working within liberal parties, Laurentian parties rather.

00:23:34.420 We've started our own parties. We worked outside. We worked inside. Nothing happens. Nothing works.

00:23:43.140 Secondly, and I don't see how you can avoid the conclusion that

00:23:48.900 liberal policy has been deliberate. And it is structural, as Ted said. And it is historic.

00:23:58.660 They want to destroy the Alberta economy. It's as simple as that. There was a joke back when

00:24:05.220 Saskatchewan was in a very bad position. The last one out, please turn out the lights. That's the image

00:24:11.700 that I think is motivating so much of Laurentian, not just liberal, but mostly liberal policy.

00:24:21.060 The second thing is, it's not a question of law, really. It's not really a question of the Clarity

00:24:26.020 Act. Well, that'll never work. It's a question of political leadership. I'm an optimist, just like Stock.

00:24:33.620 I'm an optimist too. But I think eventually, Albertans and Saskatchewanians will be fed up,

00:24:40.100 sufficiently fed up that they will demand political leaders who actually do something that's realistic.

00:24:49.140 There are, of course, there are hypothetical differences. What would happen if people in

00:24:53.380 Edmonton wanted to stay in Canada? The Americans and the Thirteen Colonies faced those difficulties

00:24:59.060 too. They even had rebellions. Shea's Rebellion shortly before the, when the Articles of Confederation

00:25:06.180 in the US were still there. The equalization formula, I mean, we can perhaps have a side wager on this,

00:25:14.500 it will never be addressed by Laurentian Canada. They suck so much money out of this province,

00:25:20.500 as everybody who's ever looked at it has said, you think they're going to give that up? You remember the old cartoon

00:25:27.220 with the milk cow, eating its hay in Alberta and getting milk in Laurentian Canada. We have no allies

00:25:36.980 really in Quebec. If we did, we wouldn't have had the adamantine objection by the government of Quebec

00:25:45.300 Quebec to have a pipeline. It's, I don't think, I mean, the idea of autonomy is sort of like hemi-demi,

00:25:56.980 what Eugene Forrest used to call hemi-demi-semi-separatism. That won't work either. Eventually,

00:26:04.660 Westerners will say, enough is enough. And we will, it may not be Jason Kenney,

00:26:12.180 in fact, everything he said, it won't be. But we will have somebody who says, we have to leave.

00:26:21.540 And if you, and if the, there's an option, an option that's been, that I thought about,

00:26:26.660 I don't think it'll work, but you have a referendum on changing section 36, the equalization formula.

00:26:35.140 And if that is not addressed by Canada, and it won't be, then two weeks later,

00:26:40.260 you have a referendum on independence. In order to do that, you'd have to have it prepared by

00:26:45.700 a political leader who understands that the problems are never going to go away.

00:26:52.100 And they can only be addressed in one way with success. There was an absolutely wonderful

00:26:57.540 article in the Roughneck magazine of just about a year ago, that explains how this can be done,

00:27:02.820 what Alberta's negotiating position would be vis-a-vis Canada, and why we would win.

00:27:09.540 And I recommend you look it up. It's available on the internet.

00:27:16.820 It is very serious. From the point of view of Canada, it's a matter of treason. It was a matter of

00:27:24.580 treason for the 13 colonies. It was a matter of treason with Louis Riel. And that's not going to go

00:27:30.820 away either. So it's serious. But like Stock, I'm optimistic. We're just optimistic about different things.

00:27:38.020 Well, there you go. All right. Thank you, Dr. Cooper. And now over to you, Stockwell Day,

00:27:42.660 we'll do another five minutes, where you can directly respond to anything that Barry has said.

00:27:47.780 Great. Thanks. Barry, always, again, appreciate those thoughtful remarks. Respectfully, it didn't

00:27:55.780 address some of the questions I raised. It will be a very real push for independence. You have to do

00:28:00.500 it through a vote. The reference, and I always appreciate historic references and reflection on

00:28:07.460 the past. We can learn from that. But seriously, when I talk with my grandkids or my kids and their

00:28:14.580 friends, if I even raise the notion of, you know, well, if Alberta wants to split, you know,

00:28:20.820 some of the colonies did that. And so they took up arms against each other. And they went at each

00:28:26.980 other with the muskets. It's not going to fly today. It just doesn't work. When Quebec lost that

00:28:34.740 referendum, you remember the premier of the day in his petulance, he blamed new Canadians in Quebec.

00:28:43.540 Well, there's a lot of new Canadians in Alberta. And they love the notion of Canada. There's a lot

00:28:48.980 of them are, you know, I've learned over the years, there's some pretty nasty stuff in terms of

00:28:53.940 the economic deal we get. But they love the thought of Canada, and they love Alberta.

00:28:59.220 And getting them from when you consider some of the war torn, and absolute poverty devastated areas of

00:29:06.740 the world that so many of the even new immigrant immigrants or even the new Canadians going back 25 0.82

00:29:12.180 years they've come from, they really appreciate it, maybe more than Albertans and more than Canadians,

00:29:17.140 what we do have here. So they're not going to be willing to put that at risk in a fight, either a

00:29:22.580 fight that's literal or figurative. They are going to want to see, for sure, they want to see changes.

00:29:29.060 But you're not going to get them on side, you're not going to get young people on side. So you can't

00:29:34.500 pursue, in my view, this notion of independence or separatism, if in fact, if you're going to pursue

00:29:41.380 it, you've got to go all out. You're going to pull out all stops. That's a lot of energy and political

00:29:46.180 strain in a time where we've got unemployed, in a time where we need to rebuild and we need to protect

00:29:52.020 our industries, we need to protect our education system, we need to protect the ability to fund our

00:29:56.020 social services. And you know, as a former minister of social services, I know what it's like to move

00:30:01.620 people off of social services who shouldn't be there, but to increase benefits for people who need

00:30:07.700 to be there. These are the types of sentiments that are going to grab people and we'll get the support

00:30:12.420 of a provincial premier, in this case, I do think it's Jason Kenney, to push hard on these items. Look

00:30:17.140 what's just been brought in in legislation in the last year or so to advance Alberta's position.

00:30:24.740 Renewing the Alberta Senate Act. Some say you'll never get any kind of Senate change. You almost had

00:30:30.660 it at the Shardstown Accord. Bill 26, bringing in referendum and restoring that. A beautifully named

00:30:38.420 act talked about preserving the Canadian Economy Act, which is going to keep the ability of the feds to

00:30:45.140 have influence in where our oil is going. And he's called it preserving the Canadian economy,

00:30:49.140 because in fact it will. And then look at provincial autonomy with the Alberta Parole Act.

00:30:54.980 The Red Tape Act to reduce federal footprints in our lives. The Royalty Guarantee Act, so that all

00:31:02.180 investments, especially from resource companies, they're going to know what the royalty is for 10

00:31:07.540 years in a row, not this back and forth from year to year. The Alberta Investment Act, there's some

00:31:12.420 amazing things that are being talked about that's going to start attracting investment, believe it

00:31:16.500 or not. So I close with this thought, Barry and two others. It was doom and gloom and pretty well

00:31:22.740 the end of the world in the early 90s when Ralph Klein won the election. The election many thought he

00:31:27.380 wouldn't win. And we put in, under his leadership, policies were put in place that had never been seen

00:31:34.020 before in Canada and it never worked. Well, we did see a reduction in the cost of civil service. We got a

00:31:40.100 smarter civil service out of it. We did see actual approaches that you can reduce the deficit in a

00:31:46.740 way that will allow you eventually to lower taxes. Lowering taxes brings in more investment. More

00:31:52.260 investment allows you to take care of real needs in education and social services. There was a buffet

00:32:00.340 of legislation and then the successful working out of it that actually caught the attention of other

00:32:06.820 provinces. The province of Ontario, and I know some won't like this, but under Mike Harris at the time,

00:32:13.940 on the economic side, they followed many of what those policies Alberta put in. And then other

00:32:20.420 provinces started to follow. And one after another, because Alberta was showing that proper and virtuous

00:32:27.220 policies can work, it actually began to change the face of the country. Even look at all the

00:32:32.660 provinces that brought in, um, uh, set term elections and it actually went to the federal level.

00:32:40.020 Now these things go up and down, they go in cycles and some of that has waxed and some of it has waned.

00:32:44.900 But for, as we like to say, for, um, a not too brief and shining moment, Alberta was really changing the

00:32:53.060 rest of the country because we started doing things the way we thought they should be done. We've got to

00:32:58.660 stay on that course. We've got to vigorously, uh, uh, push forward on this referendum that Kenny is

00:33:04.900 talking about in terms of equalization. We can do it. So rather than, uh, go down a road that is going

00:33:11.860 to cause, uh, I don't mind stress and heartache, but if it's not going to be victorious, then it won't

00:33:18.100 be. It's just devastation. I'd rather be the shining city on a hill that Alberta has been in the past

00:33:24.020 and change the country that way. Great. Thank you so much, Stockwell. We're not going to move to

00:33:28.740 sort of a more open, uh, debate format where for the next 15 minutes or so, uh, you can just,

00:33:35.300 you know, go ahead and directly respond to anything one another said. And if you need,

00:33:40.260 I've got a bunch of questions that I'll throw in as well if, uh, if, if the conversation starts

00:33:46.180 running up. So, uh, Barry, did you want to, did you want to take a response to what Stockwell has said here?

00:33:51.380 Well, I'll, I'll save it for the last, uh, thing. We agree on, on a great number of things.

00:33:58.900 Uh, certainly there's plenty of room for change in the government of Alberta.

00:34:02.500 Uh, but, uh, and we agree entirely, I think on, on that.

00:34:05.940 Well, one of the questions, uh, Barry, that, that I keep hearing and that, uh, Dr. Roy Eepin,

00:34:11.540 who's in the Q and A here, he asks that even if Alberta did separate, they would still be landlocked.

00:34:17.060 So maybe you could walk us through how becoming an independent or separate country would actually

00:34:24.260 help Alberta get its resources to market, get pipelines built and, and actually be a successful

00:34:29.300 independent country. Um, the suggestion that was made in that, uh, article that I referenced in,

00:34:36.180 in the Roughneck magazine, which is kind of a, um, a lot of people may not have heard of it. It's,

00:34:41.940 it's a kind of service magazine for the, for the oil and oil and gas industries published in Calgary

00:34:47.780 here. Uh, the argument basically was, um, Canada is so in debt, uh, and it's in debt to this province

00:34:58.500 in particular because of, of the, the, uh, amount of money that you cited right at the beginning,

00:35:04.980 that we can do a land for debt swap. And the border between Canada and Alberta will be at Hope in BC.

00:35:14.820 It's a nice choke point. The Fraser Valley goes into the Canyon. Uh, the Coquihalla ends in Hope

00:35:22.340 and the Hope Princeton Highway ends in Hope. Uh, so the lower mainland and, uh, Vancouver Island

00:35:28.260 will be parts of Canada, like, um, uh, Kaliningrad is in, in, uh, uh, in Eastern Europe. And the deal will be

00:35:38.740 that Alberta will have Canada over a barrel because, uh, if they're not willing to, uh, do some kind of

00:35:47.300 debt for land swap, uh, the Canadian dollar will be in free fall. Uh, Alberta is what makes, uh, Canada

00:35:58.020 at the moment pretty much a first world country. Uh, and if that's gone,

00:36:05.300 then Canada is, is a basket case. It's no longer, it won't be an honorary member of the third world.

00:36:11.700 It'll be a member of the third world. Uh, it's a wall street journal, uh, remark about, about five 0.98

00:36:16.660 years ago, 10 years ago. So that gives us access to the ocean. Uh, and I will guarantee you that within

00:36:24.980 about two years, uh, there will be a Northern gateway, uh, into Prince Rupert. It'll happen

00:36:31.700 in a blink of an eye. Question for you, Stockwell. So some of the things you mentioned, you know,

00:36:37.620 changing the, uh, equalization formula. I mean, we had Stephen Harper in government for almost a decade

00:36:45.540 and they didn't, that government didn't move to make any changes. So why would we expect,

00:36:51.380 uh, anything like that under, under a liberal government or a Quebec prime minister?

00:36:57.380 That's a great question. And, uh, you know, I was there for some of that time,

00:37:01.460 obviously I wasn't there for the majority. Uh, when you finally got the majority, I,

00:37:06.180 I did predict he would get it in 2011 when I decided not to run again.

00:37:09.620 Um, you know, things were complicated by the fact that the world was hit by the worst, uh,

00:37:16.900 recession and financial crisis, arguably since the thirties, uh, when things collapsed in, uh,

00:37:23.060 08 and 09. And, uh, all of the attention I, you know, I was working closely with, uh, the late, uh,

00:37:30.020 Jim Flaherty, dear friend, uh, as was Stephen Harper and others in terms of, of addressing those

00:37:36.100 types of issues. Those were huge issues. And many of those, we were in a time where,

00:37:40.980 you know, all of a sudden we were, uh, forced with challenging our own philosophic beliefs like,

00:37:46.740 uh, government staying out of business and not getting involved. And all of a sudden in 2008,

00:37:51.620 2009 with, with literally the economy falling right out from under everybody's feet, we're asking

00:37:56.820 the question, should we be supporting, um, an auto manufacturing company? And, you know,

00:38:02.740 we took a decision, which later proved to be correct, uh, to, to for a short period of time

00:38:08.100 to partially bail that out. So, uh, those issues were really front and center, uh, for so much

00:38:14.980 of that time, that was a part, a partial, uh, distraction away from possibly what could have

00:38:20.420 been more could have been done at that particular time. Also at that time we had, um, uh, governments,

00:38:28.180 uh, change certain government changes in, uh, Alberta and you didn't have the NDP clamoring in

00:38:33.780 Alberta as loudly as, as they should have either and not, not absolving the conservatives on this,

00:38:39.780 but there were gigantic issues that were diverting, uh, what could and should have been a full attention

00:38:45.140 to a more proper change. And some changes weren't actually made, which for a period of time were

00:38:50.500 helpful. But in the wake of the devastation, uh, what happened in the oil and gas sector,

00:38:55.780 um, you know, all, all, all bets are off in terms of what those answers are. I just close out that

00:39:03.940 thought, uh, Candace by saying it, it is all, it's always been a frustration to me that issues in Ontario,

00:39:13.620 which should be addressed, you know, I, how many days, and I would address it on public television

00:39:18.500 and other places you'd hear about, um, a place closing in Ontario and they're going to be a hundred jobs

00:39:23.780 lost. And the entire federal government would, you know, stand up and say, we've got to save those

00:39:28.340 hundred jobs. Listen, I'm, I'm for saving jobs. But when 50,000 jobs would be lost in Alberta,

00:39:34.580 it was mute and not just by government, but very little attention from media, which have mainstream

00:39:39.460 media with present company accepted, uh, very little understanding of the grief and devastation

00:39:44.980 that was going on in other places. So these were the types of things that were swirling about a

00:39:49.220 conservative federal government at the time that, um, probably distracted from some of the focus

00:39:53.940 that could have been there in terms of the equalization formula. Well, thank you for clarifying

00:39:57.540 us. Those are good points, but it's, it's still disappointing that more wasn't done on this issue

00:40:02.420 during that time. A question for both panelists. Uh, I wasn't really paying attention to politics in

00:40:08.740 the eighties. I was a little kid, a baby. Uh, I don't think I was born when the national energy policy

00:40:14.340 was introduced, but anyway, I know that that was sort of the, the first iteration of the Western

00:40:18.980 separatism movement. So I was wondering if each of you could comment on the comparison of the sentiment

00:40:25.860 in Alberta and in Western Canada back then, uh, under, under the first Trudeau prime minister

00:40:30.820 compared to what we have today under Justin Trudeau. Well, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. Uh, I can remember

00:40:41.940 the national energy program. I, uh, I, uh, moved back to Alberta if I had to, my 10 lost years were

00:40:48.980 living in Toronto, uh, when I was, uh, teaching in York. Uh, but I moved back here, uh, just in time for

00:40:55.700 the, um, for the NEP. And I knew a lot of people who were in the oil business who, who, uh, were, um,

00:41:05.140 really severely hit by it. Um, and I'll tell you an anecdote. When, uh, Premier Lougheed, uh, finally got

00:41:16.420 into negotiations with, uh, with Marc Lalonde, in fact, um, and I heard this from people who were in the room, uh,

00:41:27.860 Lalonde looked at him and said, we're here to negotiate.

00:41:31.540 And Lougheed said, yes. And I want to tell you that independence is not on the table.

00:41:39.300 And Marc Lalonde, who was not given to beatific smiles, burst into this beatific smile.

00:41:48.100 And the meaning of it was, we gotcha.

00:41:51.220 Lougheed lost the negotiations right there. And, uh, the, the icing on the cake was that famous picture

00:42:01.860 of him that you won't remember either, uh, of, uh, sharing a champagne glass, uh, with Justin's father.

00:42:09.940 Uh, his, um, profile in the oil patch, uh, never recovered. Uh, and the, the point I, I, I make this,

00:42:24.340 because this, this, uh, anecdote, because it's, it goes to how important political leadership is.

00:42:30.260 Uh, and it's, it's, this, these are not sort of theoretical questions. Uh, they're not, of course,

00:42:37.860 there are difficulties, but if you have decent political leadership, those are challenges that you

00:42:43.460 want to meet, that you can overcome. Um, and quite frankly, I'm, I'm, uh, optimistic that new Albertans,

00:42:51.540 new Canadians, uh, will be as open to persuasion as, uh, you know, the gnarliest old rancher from, 1.00

00:43:02.340 you know, from, uh, New Dayton.

00:43:04.180 Well, your, your question there, uh, Candace is, is pertinent because you've said, um, yeah,

00:43:13.220 you weren't, you weren't there. And so, uh, for a whole generation now, um, your age and, and,

00:43:21.060 uh, and slightly younger, that's the reality. And what was it like then as compared to now?

00:43:26.100 Uh, I do believe now in terms of the pessimism and terms of the, of the crushing

00:43:33.700 devastation, I think potentially it's even worse. Now you've got COVID laid on top of it,

00:43:38.500 which again is an area which, uh, too many governments are just, uh, I don't know that

00:43:43.060 they're handling correctly. Uh, but in that, in those days, the early eighties, I mean,

00:43:47.780 I can remember this was, it was at its worst. And, um, there were even, you know, uh,

00:43:55.220 the federal government had, uh, exacted, was now exacting a 25% tax on all of Alberta resource

00:44:02.340 companies taking an extra 25% so that the government could open up their own gas station,

00:44:07.140 uh, petrol camp. And I'll tell you, if ever there was close to revolution, it was then so much. So

00:44:12.900 there was a by-election in 1982 in an area, not far from where I lived and, uh, an independent,

00:44:19.140 like a separatist, uh, got elected, um, Mr. Kessler. But even then that only lasted two years. He did not

00:44:26.980 survive or even come close to it in the election. Some of the polling was, uh, below five percent,

00:44:32.900 even in the war, those worst of times. Um, so the sentiment at that time was not as strong as it was,

00:44:40.820 it wasn't anywhere near to being able to carry a vote, um, as Barry would hope for. And, uh,

00:44:47.380 today it just seems like it, I have the feeling that's worse when I'm in the, on the streets of, uh,

00:44:53.300 of Calgary on one of my recent meetings. They're not too long ago walking down the street. I had

00:44:58.020 to shake my head thinking is, is this a Sunday afternoon? There just doesn't seem to be a lot

00:45:02.420 of stuff happening out on the street. Um, and, and this was pre COVID. And then you look at the

00:45:08.340 numbers and they are completely staggering. This time is actually worse. And in spite of that,

00:45:15.220 and with that, uh, I just don't think the years it's, it would take you to move to

00:45:20.900 get a vote to separate, I think would be, uh, years lost and valuable energy

00:45:26.900 lost in terms of improving our situation. And with respect to Barry's suggestion,

00:45:30.980 uh, debt for land, um, you know, I've lived in Alberta and I've lived in DC now for a few years

00:45:35.780 and I know the communities that used to be in my constituency. Uh, I used to love getting out to,

00:45:40.420 uh, you know, to hope to Boston bar and, and, and, uh, to these places that know the lower mainland

00:45:45.380 very, it ain't going to fly. Uh, people are not going to give up their own, their own homelands,

00:45:51.380 um, for that kind of, uh, a situation. So that, that's my, uh, answer to your very good question,

00:45:58.180 Candace. I, I think actually financially, and I think in terms of everything from economics to

00:46:03.380 suicide rates, it's worse this time, which makes the complete, and I'll use the word ignorance of the

00:46:10.580 federal liberals on behalf of the pain in Alberta. It makes it even less excusable. Even with that,

00:46:17.300 um, I don't think you're going to drive, I don't think you're going to get a successful

00:46:20.420 independent vote. Let's do some of these other things. Let, let, let, let's take these issues on,

00:46:25.700 um, and let's start to bring in the types of policies that in the past have shown can turn

00:46:30.100 things around in Alberta. Great. Thank you, Stockwell. So let's, let's move on to our closing

00:46:36.820 remarks. We'll do five minutes each and we will, because we let you go first for the opening

00:46:41.780 rock. We'll, we'll go to you first as well, Barry. So let's hear five minutes, uh, closing remarks here.

00:46:47.460 Um, okay there. I, let's start again with agreement. There's, there's lots of room, uh, for change,

00:46:53.940 particularly in the government of Alberta. Uh, and it's true. We have been a model for Ontario once upon a

00:46:59.060 time, uh, but it's a model that they, uh, abandoned, uh, fairly closely, uh, fairly quickly.

00:47:07.140 Um, a second point, we can expect nothing from Canada. Uh, even if they say they're willing to

00:47:15.060 talk about equalization, it's, it's way too important for them to make any serious concessions.

00:47:23.300 Um, of course, our armed rebellion is, is not on the table. It's, would be impossible. Uh,

00:47:30.900 the Alberta sheriffs, uh, number about a thousand, uh, and the, um, Canadian forces has, have a fairly

00:47:39.460 large base in Edmonton. So that's not on the table. Uh, but it never really was. Uh, that's why I said the

00:47:46.260 assistance of the Americans, um, not for military reasons, uh, at least not necessarily for military

00:47:52.100 reasons, um, but simply to whisper quietly in the ear of, uh, of Ottawa, what is involved here.

00:48:00.980 And we have plenty of military things to negotiate with, um, with the Americans, uh, uh, Berkisson,

00:48:07.780 Dave Berkisson, uh, in the, in the book, uh, The Moment of Truth, explain some of these things.

00:48:13.620 Coal Lake is the fourth largest airbase in the world. Uh, Wainwright is, is, uh, an incredible

00:48:19.220 facility. Uh, so is Suffield. Uh, so there are lots of things that, that we could, uh, exchange on a

00:48:25.940 military level that would be of interest to, uh, to the United States, but armed rebellion by Albertans,

00:48:33.140 uh, I mean, I've got, uh, I go shoot deer, but they don't shoot back. Uh, so that's, you know,

00:48:38.260 that's not going to happen. Um, a fourth thing, and it is something that I've, I've stressed before,

00:48:47.140 uh, leadership can convince new Albertans, uh, First Nations, young Albertans, uh, that we've tried

00:48:58.900 everything and there's simply no interest in Laurentian Canada, uh, to deal with our problems.

00:49:09.300 Uh, Stark mentioned the government of Canada was mute over 50,000 Albertans out of work.

00:49:17.780 I would suggest to you that this was not an accident. Uh, they have no reason to care about

00:49:23.780 50,000 Albertans out of work. Uh, we don't vote for them among other things.

00:49:30.580 Uh, and then finally, I would say that eventually

00:49:36.580 young Albertans, First Nations, new Albertans will learn how we have been historically exploited,

00:49:48.100 how we are continually exploited. And the question that I asked myself when I answered it, uh,

00:49:57.780 with the position that I've been articulating here, how much are you willing to take?

00:50:05.220 Ask yourself that. You know, that's the way I quoted that second paragraph from the

00:50:10.340 Declaration of Independence. Of course, there are, there are transition costs. Uh, and nobody likes,

00:50:17.460 I've got friends in Ontario. Some of my best friends are from Ontario. Uh, but that's not the point.

00:50:23.220 Uh, it's not a question of political theory. It's not a question of historical analogy.

00:50:28.820 It's a question that every Albertan

00:50:31.220 will have to ask themselves and have to answer it, uh, in their own way. Uh, and leadership

00:50:40.340 is the key to swinging public opinion or already that, I mean, Candace, you mentioned the support,

00:50:46.660 uh, for independence, uh, in this province is, is high. It was higher than it ever was in Quebec.

00:50:53.460 Um, the kind of leadership we want is, is not that which was supplied by Gordon Kessler. I mean,

00:51:00.260 he was a great guy, but it, it will come. It will come eventually. And when it does,

00:51:06.980 uh, I would say Albertans will be, uh, prepared to act on it, to follow someone who says,

00:51:14.340 we have had enough.

00:51:18.420 The Germans have a wonderful expression of this enough is enough. And, uh, eventually we'll all see that. 0.99

00:51:26.260 All right. Thank you very much, Dr. Cooper. And we will now turn it over to Stucco

00:51:33.940 Day for your final five minute closing remarks.

00:51:36.260 Well, thanks Candace. And thanks Barry. Some, uh, great, great comments there.

00:51:40.180 Uh, the wake up call is going to come. It's happened before. So, uh, I mean, one of the things,

00:51:46.420 of course, uh, Winston Churchill said is, uh, one thing we learned from history is that we don't learn from

00:51:51.540 history, but I think at times we do. And when the federal liberal government, and I will say to a

00:51:58.260 degree, the previous conservative governments had raised the debt and deficit levels to such an extent,

00:52:04.980 and I can remember so clearly this happening in the early nineties, when the credit rating agencies

00:52:08.980 of the world said, Canada, you're on the edge. You're about to go over the edge. You're about to

00:52:14.820 get to the place where your borrowing is going to be seen as junk bonds. They actually said that we've

00:52:19.540 got a whole generation that doesn't remember that. And I will say to his credit, it was Paul Martin,

00:52:25.460 a federal finance minister who went about the greatest restructuring of the federal, uh,

00:52:31.620 bureaucracy and its costs that have ever taken place even more so at the federal level. Um,

00:52:38.340 because the, it was finally clear to people, this type of spending, this type of crushing the economies

00:52:46.340 of other provinces just out of spite, it will imperil all Canadians. And it was then that Canadians 0.98

00:52:53.300 started to listen to proper ways to finance and to handle, um, debt and to handle deficit. Then people

00:53:00.580 will be open to it. So that's, uh, one aspect I'm sure. I'm afraid it's going to have to, it may have to

00:53:05.700 come to that. The second is there has to be a change in terms of allowing more choices and getting more

00:53:12.420 choices in terms of how, uh, media is how news and media and information gets out there. Uh, I have so

00:53:20.260 many friends in what I would call the mainstream media who are good and decent and smart and passionate

00:53:26.020 people, but as a collective, only one side of a story collectively gets out. So, uh, people in the media

00:53:34.100 and also I'm going to say people in the corporate world who know better about some of these policies

00:53:39.220 that come out of the federal government, but they're afraid to speak up because it could cost

00:53:43.700 them their jobs or it could cost them share value. There has to be a reckoning where individuals as

00:53:50.100 proud Canadians as we are. And I don't want to see that change. We need to speak up. We need to say,

00:53:56.100 this is wrong, whatever the policy is. There was a close with this thought. Um, there was a recent

00:54:01.700 announcement in Alberta and it was two less than two weeks ago. It was staggering in terms of what

00:54:07.460 should have been the positive nature of it. It was the premier announcing, uh, natural gas development

00:54:14.180 that would allow for shipments of natural, uh, natural gas to get to places like China and India

00:54:20.580 to help get them off of their coal plants, which frankly are one of the greatest causes in terms

00:54:26.340 of atmospheric pollution. Uh, right now, China has on its boards, on, on, on, on its construction 0.88

00:54:32.900 planning over 2000 new coal plants just to meet the demand. India in a similar way. And here was,

00:54:39.700 here is an opportunity, Canadian product refined better than any other product in the world,

00:54:45.140 being able to go out and supported hugely by indigenous, uh, first nations investors and workers

00:54:52.980 offering gen, a generational hope in terms of what it would do for the indigenous community.

00:54:58.660 And he held that press conference that I was listening, one reporter after another saying,

00:55:04.180 uh, I don't have a question on that. I want to talk about this or that. And, uh, where's COVID and, uh,

00:55:09.140 why aren't people wearing masks? I was as staggered as I can be with the media at times. I was,

00:55:14.420 let's call it super staggered. Um, my friends, they know better and individually in whatever

00:55:20.180 profession we are, a walk of life, we have to start speaking up. And as David from once quoted

00:55:25.460 in a book he wrote some time ago, it's, it's, it's timely realized that we individually and

00:55:32.580 corporately have to speak up, speak the truth and be prepared to pay the price because there is a price

00:55:40.580 to be paid when you're willing to speak up against a policy that you know is harmful. There's a price

00:55:46.020 to be paid. I'm willing to speak up. I think others are, I want to preserve this country. I want to

00:55:50.660 preserve Alberta as, as the incredible province it is. And to quote somebody else who said this,

00:55:55.940 I am not going to allow the federal liberal liberals or Justin Trudeau to push me out of Canada. Thank you.

00:56:01.460 Great. Thank you so much to both of our speakers. That was really excellent and I think we covered a

00:56:08.180 lot of ground. So thank you both. I'm now going to invite the live audience to once again vote on the

00:56:15.220 motion and we will provide an update on those results once they have been tabulated. We'll now end the,

00:56:22.900 the live stream portion of tonight's debate and we'll move over to the Chatham House Rules segment

00:56:28.820 of the program, which means that we will allow our live audience to have more interaction with the,

00:56:35.220 with the speakers and put their questions directly to them. And just as one final housekeeping note,

00:56:41.460 if you're watching this and you're interested in joining one of these future sessions, these after

00:56:45.620 hour sessions, please visit CivitasCanada.ca in order to apply for membership. We're always open to new

00:56:52.980 members. We would love for you to join the organization to participate. And if you're watching

00:56:57.860 through True North, please consider subscribing to our service, become a True North insider

00:57:03.060 at tnc.news slash donate. And then you'll also have an opportunity to participate in these events. So

00:57:09.700 we'll allow everyone to vote and see if people have had their minds changed. And if any of the,

00:57:16.500 either of the debaters have been able to move that needle. So if you remember at the beginning of the

00:57:21.380 night, uh, those in favor of the motion, be it resolved, Alberta and Saskatchewan would be better

00:57:25.940 off independent with 64%. Those who opposed it was 34. And then now it looks like the, the, the needle

00:57:32.100 has moved a little bit. 61% are still in agreement with you, Barry, but Stockwell, you were able to move

00:57:38.580 the, uh, move the needle by 3% there. So, uh, congratulations to both. That was a great time.

00:57:47.140 Barry, Barry, always just super to be with you. This has been great. I've, I've, uh, I've learned

00:57:52.340 some good things here today, so I appreciate that. Thanks, Doc. Good seeing you again. All right.

00:57:57.460 Good to see you too. Bye now. Bye.

Juno News - September 30, 2020

The Future of Confederation Debate

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