Juno News - The media got it wrong on Covid ｜ Dr. Matt Strauss ｜ Part 1.

00:00:00.000 Hello everybody and welcome to the Rupa Subramanya show. I am of course Rupa Subramanya. I hope

00:00:23.440 you're all doing well wherever you're tuning in from. My guest today is Matt Strauss who's a

00:00:29.300 critical care physician and acting medical officer for Haldeman Norfolk. Dr. Strauss has been critical

00:00:35.240 of excessive government pandemic measures such as lockdowns and mask mandates and recently

00:00:45.280 sections of the mainstream media have tried to discredit and cancel him. Most recently an article

00:00:53.980 in the Toronto Star caricatured and ridiculed some of his comments. His health district however has

00:01:00.780 seen a 30 percent lower mortality from COVID than the provincial average so I guess in a sense he

00:01:06.920 feels vindicated and he's stepping down from his position. To talk about all of this and more

00:01:11.820 please welcome Dr. Strauss to the show. Matt welcome to my show. Welcome to the Rupa Subramanya show.

00:01:17.920 I really applaud your courage in being one of the few brave voices in the Ontario healthcare system.

00:01:26.240 You know you've had the courage to criticize some of these draconian and harsh measures from the

00:01:33.280 government. First you know can we can we start by you describing to us what you do as a critical care

00:01:41.840 physician. What what is it that you've seen during the pandemic as a critical care physician?

00:01:48.320 Okay so critical care doctors or ICU doctors it you go to med school for four years you do a background

00:01:55.200 specialty either internal medicine anesthesia surgery or emergency medicine for three to five

00:02:00.880 years and then you do two years of a subspecialty in critical care medicine and the some of the things

00:02:07.920 that define critical care medicine are very invasive medications that we give through the the the main

00:02:16.080 lines uh main lines that we put in your jugular vein and also the breathing machine so life support.

00:02:21.840 It might be fair to say that critical care doctors are life support specialists that's a huge part of

00:02:26.320 what we do and I have been practicing as a critical care doctor for 10 years. I was the chief of my critical

00:02:35.840 care unit in a community hospital in Ontario um I uh for the last five years I wouldn't say that I was burnt out

00:02:46.720 I was something like uh I felt like I I was limited in terms of growth and that some some things were

00:02:55.120 bothering me um about the sort of medicine I deliver um and what I was seeing in my patients that I was putting the

00:03:02.640 same person on a breathing machine three times in one year um for lung disease from smoking but they

00:03:08.080 were still smoking or um from overdose but they they were still being prescribed the medications that

00:03:13.360 they were overdosing on or um uh or diabetics not taking their insulin that sort of thing um so I was

00:03:21.760 concerned about these larger issues in population public health community health um and at the time I went to

00:03:28.160 I went to journalism school and uh I just finished a fellowship of a monk school in journalism when

00:03:34.000 and I'd written a couple pieces one for the national post and one for vice news um and and that's when

00:03:39.040 the pandemic broke out so I I kind of already had these background concerns about um sometimes we're not

00:03:45.360 doing what we wish we were or we're not achieving what we wish we were achieving uh in in our field um when the pandemic

00:03:53.520 sorry to quickly quickly interrupt why did you go to journalism school you were already a doctor

00:03:58.320 I wanted to write about these things that um oh okay these these counterintuitive things I was

00:04:02.880 seeing where yeah um it's really easy to pat yourself on the back all the time as a medical

00:04:07.280 specialist and being like I'm saving the world but it's like okay you're you're not there's there's

00:04:11.760 these bigger issues in public health that that um I think have to do the word holistic captures a lot

00:04:19.680 of it that health is so so much more than the absence of disease health is do you have someone

00:04:24.720 you can call when you're in uh bad straits do you have um do you have adequate housing these sorts of

00:04:30.160 things are like is your city walkable um and these are really public health concerns one might say now

00:04:35.840 anyway so I had just started writing and I had a couple clips in mainstream media the pandemic broke out

00:04:42.240 and uh I'd been on Twitter for like 10 years um and at one point I think in April 2020 I I

00:04:49.120 two are two things happened around the same time I on March 26th I I tried to get a piece published

00:04:56.560 about my concerns about lockdown that it was going to harm all these other things about health and

00:05:01.040 population health if if you're if your faith group isn't meeting if if grandparents can't see their

00:05:05.600 grandchildren if you if you don't have a good job like this is all going to cause more disease and

00:05:09.840 critical illness um and we're just being a bit short-sighted in terms of the two weeks to flatten

00:05:14.240 the curve canard um so I wrote this piece I I had read every paper on COVID like swear to God at that

00:05:21.520 time there weren't that many papers on COVID there's now 700,000 papers on COVID um so I felt like I I

00:05:26.800 understood the medicine really well I had this this honest concern about what we were doing to our

00:05:30.400 society and no media in Canada would publish that piece period full stop I sent it everywhere um people

00:05:38.880 editors who had printed my last pieces suddenly stopped returning my emails um and what when when

00:05:46.960 was this in the pandemic uh March 2020 so like oh two weeks after the first lockdown I think wow yeah

00:05:53.920 so it was like March 20th that I wrote this piece and I felt obsessed about it I was like I

00:05:57.920 I gotta get this out um and one Canadian editor of an international publication who I view as something as

00:06:04.480 a mentor uh accepted my piece for international publication and the next day said sorry my my

00:06:10.640 boss um like you know so we might say the publisher says absolutely not um but I'll have you on my

00:06:16.320 podcast but then he called back and said no I can't even have you on the podcast but he sent it to an

00:06:21.600 editor at the spectator uh in the UK which blew my mind as somebody who just started writing a couple

00:06:27.440 pieces to get into spectator it was amazing so I was writing for spectator I I couldn't believe my luck

00:06:33.600 um and I I had a couple tweets that went insanely viral um like 25 000 likes in a week one of which

00:06:40.480 where I just said hey my my ICU is actually empty it's never been this empty before uh we have 13 beds

00:06:46.640 we only have two people in our ICU seems like we flattened the curve like maybe we should start

00:06:50.640 liberalizing things that I think was a very banal statement but then suddenly Ben Shapiro was

00:06:55.280 retweeting it and I was like what is going on and with that attention or I guess you might

00:07:03.040 say journalistic success um came a lot of criticism of me um and I basically from day one in that spring

00:07:13.440 of 2020 I um I was criticized by colleagues I was criticized by administrators there were some back and

00:07:21.200 forth a bunch of meetings I had to go to some emails and at the end of the day I was like look I

00:07:27.280 I I'm the most kind of doctrinaire evidence-based doctor people were getting really excited about

00:07:33.440 ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine and I was not excited about those things I'm really a dyed and

00:07:37.680 wool skeptic I want to see the international multi-center randomized control trial in a peer-reviewed paper

00:07:42.320 journal before I get very excited about things yeah um and then suddenly I was being painted as on the

00:07:47.760 fringe because I wasn't um applauding these very draconian measures so I for about six months I was

00:07:53.520 just engaged in the this criticism and concern about lockdowns um in November 2020 the university

00:08:01.200 administration the university I was affiliated with started giving me a very hard time and I made some

00:08:07.280 noise about hey hey look like if you go to the main webpage uh academic freedom is supposed to exist

00:08:13.600 here um like please stop sending me these things um yeah so that got turned up more and more as time

00:08:20.320 went on and then I became more and more alarmed because in December of 2020 we were suddenly um plunged

00:08:28.400 into another lockdown in Ontario which was yeah it was unbelievable to me I I could not believe it um

00:08:38.160 and uh it felt like I had done all this public commentary and critique had been in good faith

00:08:43.840 I'd been referencing the medical literature I um I described some some I was seeing firsthand things

00:08:50.880 that were also reflected in the medical literature so I was seeing more people dying of uh substance abuse

00:08:55.280 and uh overdose yeah we we now know I think it was published in JAMA in Ontario uh overdose deaths in young

00:09:03.760 men quadrupled during spring 2020 um which is horrendous and tragic and then and the first hand I was

00:09:12.480 seeing elders from nursing homes who were starving to death because their families weren't allowed to

00:09:16.800 come in and feed them which they had been depending on yeah um so I I always felt like I'm just honestly

00:09:23.360 describing what I'm seeing I'm honestly referencing the medical literature I honestly kind of am an expert

00:09:28.880 in this stuff um and I'm I'm not going to stop talking about it but it seems like it's having no effect

00:09:36.240 then in spring 2021 Ontario didn't even more draconian lockdown where they were going to have the

00:09:41.280 police stop you a block from your house to ask what are you doing out and it was the chiefs of police

00:09:46.000 in Ontario who said no we're we're not doing that this is police state stuff the premier to his credit

00:09:50.640 apologized I think the next day but if you look at any civics textbook anywhere in the western world the

00:09:55.600 chiefs of police are not supposed to be the guardians of civil liberty like if that's your um if that

00:10:02.080 that if that's who's protecting civil liberties in your country or your province that's a big problem

00:10:07.520 so I I frankly began to despair a bit I was like I I thought I had I thought I'd done everything I

00:10:14.720 could do in terms of public speaking and commentary and writing to just stop this tragedy unfolding um and

00:10:22.160 I I I was sort of out of moves and then quite out of the blue some members of this community in

00:10:29.040 rural Ontario on on the uh kind of cottage country uh farming community on the shores of Lake Erie

00:10:35.440 um asked me if I would apply to their job to the job to be their public health official so I took that

00:10:40.800 job yeah and when my appointment was announced like all hell broke loose the the Toronto Star the CBC

00:10:46.880 um ran hit pieces on me um that included just straight misinformation um I'm I'm not a litigious

00:10:55.200 person but I I did have to get a lawyer and that lawyer sent cease and desist letters to them and we

00:11:00.320 received a number of corrections and some apologies um and then I I just did my honest best to put the

00:11:08.400 medical literature and my clinical experience into practice um so for a year and a half now I've been the

00:11:13.600 medical officer of health for Haldeman Norfolk and I did not extend vaccine mandates like many of my

00:11:18.640 colleagues did I did not extend mass mandates um we did very little by way of school closures or

00:11:25.120 we didn't do restaurant capacity restrictions and accessible what the province uh was doing and

00:11:29.920 the proof is in the pudding we have uh 30 fewer covid deaths in my community that I serve than

00:11:35.920 provincially so at the end of the day I feel like I proved my point in in real life yeah I'm not expecting

00:11:42.560 any sort of victory parade but um hopefully the next time we have a pandemic we won't do these

00:11:49.120 wrong-headed things that are not supported by the best medical literature yeah no I was uh gonna come

00:11:53.840 to that actually uh because you um referring to your um recent op-ed in the national post where you say

00:12:00.560 that uh your district your health district saw 30 percent lower covid mortality than the provincial average

00:12:08.160 i i i i mean i do hope you feel a sense of vindication i think you do um but what what exactly did you

00:12:15.680 do there that was different from the rest of the province so i i want to be really clear i am not taking

00:12:23.760 credit for this 30 percent lower death rate um the mainstream media uh the toronto star the cbc uh uh

00:12:30.880 the globe and mail more insinuated it but and and some loud uh kind of twitter celebrities were saying

00:12:37.120 that i was going to kill people the the region was going to be on fire the hospitals would be 0.87

00:12:40.960 overwhelmed and i was i was sure that wasn't going to happen i think why is there 30 percent lower

00:12:47.200 mortality in the region has to do with what we talk about in public health as social determinants of

00:12:50.960 health i think people are more connected there there's more compassion there's um uh there there's

00:12:57.840 frankly more common sense um so but you know some of the things that i maybe can take credit for i i

00:13:07.040 was passionate about getting vulnerable people vaccinated and and not coercing um young healthy

00:13:14.320 people into getting vaccinated um and so i said hey i i want to build trust in public health if you

00:13:21.120 don't feel that you have a physician you can talk to about whether you should get vaccinated or not

00:13:24.640 call my office i'll call you back and i had dozens of phone calls with folks who were vulnerable and

00:13:28.880 and some of them after speaking with me did decide to go get vaccinated perhaps that affected mortality

00:13:34.400 rates um there was um when pax livid came out i i was very impressed by the trial data like i said i

00:13:41.120 was not impressed by hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin i thought this could be a game changer but it wasn't

00:13:45.680 available in my community so i i wrote a letter the board of health in my community um passed a motion

00:13:51.200 supporting the letter i gave the letter to the mpp the mpp hand delivered it to the minister of

00:13:56.560 health and they made packs of it available in our community um and that maybe saved some lives um

00:14:03.840 so there uh oh and another thing was there's a whole thing about monoclonal antibody uh

00:14:09.040 monoclonal antibody therapy right and we are very blessed um to be close to mcmaster in my community and

00:14:14.320 mcmaster had an antibody monoclonal clinic um and the director of that clinic was like i can't get anybody to

00:14:20.400 show up like nobody's referring patients it's almost i think because of trump arrangement

00:14:25.920 syndrome people were like no it's it's there's no treatment it's vaccinations and it's only 0.96

00:14:29.360 vaccinations we have to get everyone vaccinated it's like no there's many things we can do um

00:14:33.600 so i i developed a procedure by which we would identify high-risk people in the community and get

00:14:38.320 them referred to that clinic um uh right away so and you know i don't know but hopefully that saves

00:14:44.240 some lives too well yeah no that's uh that's very interesting i mean i i know i saw the attacks um

00:14:52.080 you know the attacks from sections of the mainstream media some journalists will come to that a little

00:14:57.680 later uh just a quick question you know you mentioned to me that uh people in your community

00:15:03.040 uh actually wanted you to um head head the public health unit in that district um what that you know i find

00:15:11.520 that very interesting because at a time when you were saying um something that was going against

00:15:17.440 sort of the mainstream narrative it was going against the grain of what was considered to be

00:15:24.160 uh you know the right thing to do at that time um how is it that people in your community thought

00:15:30.960 otherwise and how how is it that you were then you know you eventually got to this position how did that

00:15:36.480 come about um all i can say is a member of the community dm'd me on twitter had me call a number

00:15:44.880 of other community leaders who were interested in what i had to say i think that just demographically

00:15:50.720 there are a lot of farmers in that community okay um i think that a lot of what happened in terms of

00:15:56.160 the nonsense that we saw there was there was a few things one is if you live and work in the ivory 0.99

00:16:01.760 tower in downtown toronto and you create uh sophisticated computer mathematical models to

00:16:07.200 predict what's going to happen you can publish papers all day long you can go speak at conferences

00:16:11.840 all day long and it seems like nobody ever asks you if your models actually successfully predict reality

00:16:18.720 but you can have a sterling academic career based on these predictions that turn out to be false yeah

00:16:24.480 um and i think that in an agricultural community you as a farmer you can come up with a computer model

00:16:33.280 but how you're going to grow more rutabagas that are bigger and more delicious than anyone else

00:16:36.880 yeah you find out six months later if your theory holds water and if you don't grow the rutabagas that

00:16:41.760 you thought you're going to you might lose the farm um so i think i think throughout the world when

00:16:48.720 you you go to these sort of rural agricultural places you're you're going to find a lot more common sense

00:16:52.960 and a lot less um reliance on what uh what the the so-called experts of mainstream media media think

00:17:02.640 and you didn't face any kind of resistance from the bureaucracy i uh like like um um the bureaucracy

00:17:10.080 of these uh health care units at all like oh you know this is matt strauss he said all of these things

00:17:15.120 about lockdowns and masks and uh you know and i don't think he would be good for this position you just

00:17:21.840 don't feel that kind of uh resistance um when i was hired um uh the the board of health which is the

00:17:29.520 the body to which i report uh voted nine to zero to hire me um and and everything that i had done

00:17:36.560 was public yeah when the media started raising hell uh it you know it was largely the downtown

00:17:43.280 toronto based media yeah there was a bit of um public outcry i think that um i i heard one member

00:17:55.120 of the board of health say they got like the same email 50 times like a chain letter and and i think

00:17:59.360 some of them were spooked um so a meeting to reassess the hiring was called okay um i wrote them a letter

00:18:07.040 saying like look these these media reports are false the corrections have been printed here's what i

00:18:13.360 actually said what i actually believe and then over that period of time i understood they they got um

00:18:19.040 hundreds of like individuals in the community uh calling their office saying that we we uh the one

00:18:26.400 the one board member who i think was concerned about the blowback initially said we had hundreds of

00:18:34.080 phone calls saying we we don't want mandates we want dr strauss um so there was a bit of like

00:18:39.440 astroturfing online slacktivism to get rid of me yeah in the end they voted eight to one to keep

00:18:45.280 well i think that's a great story actually and it gives me some hope uh given that you know everybody

00:18:50.640 was saying the same thing and you were saying something different and and then you know you headed this

00:18:56.720 healthcare unit and uh and you know i think it's you know it gives me some hope and optimism that uh that

00:19:02.480 there are sensible people out there and uh and that uh that we are capable of empowering uh sensible

00:19:09.440 people among us and uh so that you know that's that's a great story actually um so um you know

00:19:16.080 matt i mean could you tell me uh you know we were we've been you know you've opposed these draconian

00:19:21.520 uh measures um you know how do you how would you assess the risk benefit trade-off between um you know

00:19:28.960 between harsh measures such as lockdowns i mean did in the end did you do you think lockdowns saved

00:19:34.000 lives did they did they make any difference at all so the the best medical papers i have about 13 of them

00:19:44.240 um there are the 13 that i'm talking about looked at actual differences in population-wide mortality so

00:19:55.120 and we can do this ad hoc we can say we'll look at california versus florida florida was more liberal 0.87

00:20:00.400 with age-adjusted mortality for covid they had about the same outcomes you can look at brazil

00:20:04.960 versus argentina brazil was criticized because bolsonaro uh took a more oddly liberal approach um

00:20:11.040 given his politics otherwise whereas argentina did very strict lockdowns and there's not much

00:20:16.960 difference there either you can look at sweden versus the uk or sweden versus belgium

00:20:20.640 um all of these things people like to compare sweden versus denmark but denmark also or sweden

00:20:25.440 versus norway but all the scandinavian countries actually had more liberal approaches in general um

00:20:32.000 so we can do that and we can be accused of cherry picking but when researchers will will take all of

00:20:38.880 the u.s states or all of the countries in europe or all the countries in the world and and then

00:20:43.360 do um uh multivariate logistic regression analysis yeah and for those 13 papers that i that i have

00:20:51.760 there's no difference based on how severe your um measures were in terms of the body count at the

00:21:00.320 end so i'm i'm very comfortable saying no on the on the large scale they didn't i think that there's

00:21:07.040 still the theoretic possibility that if you're if your hospitals are overwhelmed and you do lockdowns

00:21:12.800 for two weeks and you make it instead of a two weeks of being overwhelmed four weeks of being

00:21:18.800 just stressed there might be a mortality benefit there but ultimately like the lock lockdowns can

00:21:24.080 only work for as long as you do them so it always felt to me like we're building a bridge to nowhere

00:21:28.400 every every case that you prevent with this lockdown um you're just going to get when the lockdown is

00:21:35.760 relieved and that's what we saw in ontario like the the vast majority of ontarians ended up getting

00:21:41.280 covid despite all of the time we spent in lockdown so it's it's a it's a delaying tactic it doesn't

00:21:46.960 change the game yeah um yeah no i just want to come to uh this uh question that uh you know i i i

00:21:55.760 refer to this uh in my recent national post column actually um uh it's not about lockdowns it's about

00:22:02.800 vaccines and um and it was a wall street journal uh opinion column by a member of the editorial board

00:22:10.560 uh citing three different studies that point to how uh viruses are actually adapting to the vaccines

00:22:17.920 um um just as i suppose evolutionary biology would predict this um uh and that's my layman's

00:22:26.400 understanding of evolutionary biology i wonder what you think about this are vaccines actually uh

00:22:32.960 abetting the rise of new variants i think that um i think that there were always going to be new

00:22:43.120 variants no matter what we do if you have a if you have any organism and you're not eradicating it

00:22:48.800 you're it's not on the endangered species list um covid will be with us forever um covid will continue

00:22:56.080 to mutate forever um if you uh if you give a population of an organism a uh an evolutionary

00:23:05.840 push in one direction where you say well we're going to use this defense the vaccines the virus

00:23:09.920 will evolve around the vaccines so there always were going to be variants um what sorts of variants

00:23:15.600 we see may in fact be responsive to what mitigation measures we we use i think that and i just want

00:23:21.680 to be very clear i think that it's a bit of a modern miracle that a new disease came out and nine

00:23:27.440 months later we had a vaccination that saves lives that's incredible um and i i never want to take away

00:23:36.400 from that scientific achievement um it seemed to me but and and we're talking about evolutionary

00:23:43.520 evolutionary theoretical speculation okay i like to talk about what the numbers show afterwards but yeah you

00:23:50.960 i would conjecture and i and i did conjecture i didn't like to tweet or write about it but

00:23:54.720 probably the best time to get covid is is three weeks after your vaccination and if you get it five

00:23:59.520 years from now hey you'll be five years older um and your vaccination might have worn off but also

00:24:03.600 it'll be a variant that is not the same as what you were just vaccinated for so um that's how i view it

00:24:09.680 yeah i mean the last time i was vaccinated was more than a year ago and uh i probably um i i mean i i

00:24:16.560 i suspect i had covet at some point before the vaccines uh were uh you know were even available

00:24:24.320 i mean i i suppose i'm just basically more or less walking unprotected but i'm also assuming i have these

00:24:29.760 antibodies right from um from from having recovered from a covet infection um you know so do you do you

00:24:37.520 think that everybody should get vaccinated should we be on this constant sort of uh round of boosters

00:24:45.520 i mean some people have had seven or eight shots at this point which um which i'm thinking that even

00:24:50.640 with the flu shot you you wouldn't take that many flu shots over the course of two years right uh so

00:24:59.200 that's certainly correct um yeah the it's really really hard to make blanket statements about should

00:25:05.440 everyone in general in medicine if absolute absolutist statements are always wrong should everyone

00:25:12.640 always get vaccinated always all the time for with every vaccine um probably not should no one ever

00:25:19.120 get vaccinated with no vaccines definitely not um and i think my concern i understand why they

00:25:27.760 felt they could not deliver nuanced information to the public because it it's just hard to do um

00:25:34.960 but i think you have to try so i don't know where the cutoff is for who will benefit and who will

00:25:42.320 not frankly because it's a new vaccine um my personal priority would be if you are over 40 definitely

00:25:52.240 you should be vaccinated um if you have already if you're covered recovered um there is less uh benefit

00:26:00.560 to getting vaccinated if you are under 40 there is less uh benefit to getting vaccinated if you have

00:26:06.160 severe medical problems you should definitely get vaccinated if you don't there's less benefit and

00:26:12.880 the just common basic principles of medicine and ethics like um pharmaceutical ads in the state

00:26:22.000 say talk to your doctor i think if you're not sure you deserve to have a doctor that you can talk about

00:26:28.320 this with and some folks did call me and they would say i have heart disease in my family and i heard

00:26:33.280 that this vaccine causes heart issues so i don't think i should take it and i was like well what heart

00:26:37.680 disease is in your family well that's not what the the vaccine causes and what risk factors do you

00:26:41.520 have and um some of them elected to take it after that so what i was really uncomfortable with was on

00:26:47.120 the side of the road there were light up billboards on the 401 that said get the jab and i was like

00:26:52.000 no that's not that's not how individual like health is really complicated and every individual

00:26:57.120 has a rich context and even as a physician if i spend 20 minutes with you i'm not going to know your

00:27:00.240 whole life um but i hopefully will know enough to come to uh be able to give you a recommendation so

00:27:07.040 um there are there are folks who look we we have this um paper that came out in november uh 2021 where

00:27:15.760 they they looked at everyone who died suddenly uh 20 days within a vaccination and they did autopsies on

00:27:21.680 them and for they had 35 people in at the heidelberg medical center in baden-wittenberg germany um which is a

00:27:30.240 province of 11 million people so they only had 35 who died suddenly um and they they looked at their

00:27:37.040 hearts and they found that four of them had myocarditis that couldn't be explained by anything

00:27:41.840 other than the vaccine um so it's not that there's zero risk to this so maybe there's a four and 11

00:27:49.040 million chance of this happening with a vaccination that's not zero that's incredibly rare and i believe

00:27:54.240 that in general at a population level the vaccine saved way more lives than four out of 11 million

00:27:59.760 but you have to take people's concerns about that seriously because the number is not zero exactly

00:28:06.320 i mean it is exactly it is not zero and uh yeah i mean since you mentioned died suddenly and you

00:28:13.840 probably have um i don't know if you saw the movie uh and and all of the references to died suddenly

00:28:20.960 that have been making the rounds on social media lately um you know it it's you know i i i trained as

00:28:27.920 an economist so i look for data and hard evidence before i come to some kind of a conclusion when

00:28:34.560 it comes to a certain thing like what are other factors that could be contributing to a person

00:28:39.200 suddenly collapsing for example right how do you how do you discern all of the you know the the the

00:28:44.640 various um things at play here and and so the conclusion seems to be increasingly by by you know

00:28:52.720 uh by some people that it's the vaccines that are causing these um heart attacks and uh you know

00:29:00.480 you have these professional athletes were just uh collapsing uh maybe a few weeks after a booster

00:29:06.240 some people have died what exactly is going on here i mean is there is there some truth i mean and and

00:29:12.800 and here before you know before i finish that question i mean one of the things that i've learned

00:29:17.440 during the pandemic is that yesterday's conspiracy theory uh is today's reality and so i've um i'm

00:29:23.760 not quite sure what is going on here do the skeptics the vaccine skeptics have a point here

00:29:29.600 i think that you are wise to say that you don't know what's going on um the wisest man uh

00:29:36.480 are in let's say western philosophy socrates says i i only know that i don't know um and on both

00:29:44.240 sides of this issue so the first thing i'll say is i didn't watch that movie some people who i think

00:29:49.280 are very thoughtful and reflective who did watch it gave a description to me and i was like yeah that

00:29:54.880 that doesn't sound credible and it's not i'm gonna spend two hours on a friday night um the what i what

00:30:03.600 i have seen happening so like one thing you could take from that german pathology study with the autopsies

00:30:08.160 is only four out of the 35 people who dropped dead unexpectedly at home um died because of vaccine

00:30:16.160 induced myocarditis and that's not completely confirmed but it seems like the most likely

00:30:20.160 explanation so i think it's deeply irresponsible if you're on twitter and somebody faints somewhere

00:30:26.960 or has a heart attack somewhere to say this is the vaccine you they might not even have been

00:30:31.440 vaccinated so there's just a lot of deeply irresponsible claims coming out from anti like

00:30:38.880 the sort of the old traditional anti-vaccine movement um and then i think they're in the

00:30:44.720 medical establishment is a reflexive like they're conspiracy theorists they're uh misinformation

00:30:50.160 mongers uh they're very bad people we need to censor them and no the vaccine doesn't kill anybody 1.00

00:30:56.080 it's perfectly safe and it's like well no hang on absolutism on both sides i understand why

00:31:01.120 they're falling into a reflexive absolutism because the claims made on the anti-vaccine side are

00:31:05.840 irresponsible and often false but four out of 35 out of a population of 11 million is still not zero

00:31:13.360 so we have to be really careful to be nuanced at all times

Juno News - February 02, 2023

The media got it wrong on Covid ｜ Dr. Matt Strauss ｜ Part 1.

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript