Juno News - The New Book Burners

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:13.060 Coming up, Halifax Libraries stand for free speech, lockdown double standards, and government prosecution of a church again.

00:00:22.940 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:26.560 Hello and welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:34.440 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, Tuesday, June 1st, 2021.

00:00:39.340 If you are a long-time listener to the show, you know we are all about freedom of speech here.

00:00:45.380 It is the most essential freedom because it's the freedom that allows you to tackle all of the other issues you may want to in a society.

00:00:53.060 There are two dimensions to free speech.

00:00:55.540 One is the legal right to free speech, that government is not going to kick in your door and arrest you for saying whatever it is you want to say.

00:01:04.240 The other more important dialogue, in a lot of ways, is the cultural free speech mentality.

00:01:10.360 The idea that we in society uphold the fact that, yes, we can have disagreements, and that is not something to shy away from.

00:01:18.840 That I can think what I think, you can think what you think.

00:01:21.200 Now, we know that this has been under attack.

00:01:24.060 So, too, has legal free speech.

00:01:26.340 It's when threats against the two are combined together that so many problems tend to happen.

00:01:30.740 Take a look at a lot of the discussion around what the liberals want to do with the internet.

00:01:35.480 But there's been a bit of a victory for free speech, in a way.

00:01:39.000 And I say this with bated breath, understanding that a lot of the time when this happens,

00:01:43.580 people may end up capitulating down the road.

00:01:46.240 In Halifax, there is a push underway to strip a book from the library because a group of activists don't like that book's thesis.

00:01:56.020 The debate involves Abigail Schreier's bestseller, Irreversible Damage, the Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. 1.00

00:02:03.480 I've never read the book.

00:02:04.620 I've read excerpts from it.

00:02:05.720 I've seen interviews with Abigail Schreier.

00:02:07.620 She's meticulously researched her point, and she takes a position that may be different than what a lot of activists think.

00:02:14.880 You can debate the book.

00:02:15.920 You can read it.

00:02:16.660 You can tear it apart if you want.

00:02:18.260 You can do whatever you'd like.

00:02:20.040 But you have to give other people who want to read that book the opportunity to do so if they seek it out.

00:02:25.480 But that's the part that's missing right now.

00:02:27.940 A community petition was launched trying to strip this book from the shelves of the Halifax Public Library.

00:02:34.260 There are activists like Chris Cochran, who's the vice chair of Pride's board of directors, and the transgender and non-binary committee lead.

00:02:42.220 And Chris Cochran says, as a trans person, I'm not going to debate my existence, and this book is definitely debating the existence of trans people.

00:02:51.960 If I can parse that one sentence for a moment, Cochran says they are not going to debate their existence.

00:02:59.520 That's fine.

00:03:00.260 No one's asking them to.

00:03:01.340 Even if it's true that the book debates trans people's existence, which, by the way, is disputed.

00:03:07.020 A trans person here on Twitter, Debbie Hayton, says,

00:03:10.180 No, Abigail Schreier's book does not debate our existence.

00:03:13.480 Halifax libraries are right to carry it, and we should all just ignore Halifax Pride's little tantrum.

00:03:19.640 But going back to Cochran's point, Cochran may think that the book debates their existence,

00:03:24.020 but that doesn't mean Cochran has to engage in such a debate.

00:03:28.200 Cochran can do what presumably has been done since the book came out, which is ignore it or talk about why the book might be wrong.

00:03:35.300 But don't deny other people the right to access.

00:03:38.000 This is something that is so fundamental and self-evident.

00:03:40.740 And if you look at what actually started this campaign, it was, according to CBC,

00:03:47.100 the person who started the petition noticing that 25 people had placed the book on hold.

00:03:52.360 So 25 people in the entire city of Halifax wanted to read a book.

00:03:56.920 There are two copies of it.

00:03:58.260 And that was enough to get a petition because, well,

00:04:00.560 we can't allow anyone to think anything apart from the activist-driven orthodoxy on trans issues or any other issues.

00:04:08.480 But there's some good news to this I said earlier, and that is that Halifax has thus far not caved.

00:04:14.120 The library is standing firm saying it will not be censoring the book.

00:04:19.540 Free access to information and ideas is a democratic right of every citizen.

00:04:24.280 Public libraries ensure this right by providing the public with opportunities

00:04:28.060 to participate fully in a changing society through access to a wide range of humanity's thoughts,

00:04:34.860 ideas, information, and expression of the creative imagination.

00:04:39.620 We have assessed the book against Halifax Public Library's collection development policy

00:04:43.700 and the Canadian Federation of Library Associations' statement on intellectual freedom

00:04:48.300 and have made the decision to not censor the book.

00:04:51.960 And the statement goes on to say that the library has a commitment to open dialogue and intellectual freedom.

00:04:58.060 Which is critical.

00:05:00.120 And I will say it is good that libraries have been very much on the right side of this generally

00:05:07.300 in the last little while.

00:05:09.040 Not exclusively.

00:05:09.980 We've seen stories in British Columbia where libraries have not landed on the right side of this.

00:05:14.580 But also some tremendously courageous librarians,

00:05:17.140 such as Vickery Bowles in Toronto,

00:05:20.040 who in October 2019 was unapologetic in her decision as Toronto's top librarian to allow Megan Murphy,

00:05:28.380 who's also been critical of the trans narrative pushed forward by activists,

00:05:33.240 to allow Megan Murphy the right to speak at a public venue,

00:05:36.840 at a Toronto public library space,

00:05:39.060 when a group wanted to book out a room and have her speak.

00:05:42.100 And the cancel mob tried to subject Vickery Bowles to all of its worst as it does

00:05:47.760 anytime someone says no to them and stands up.

00:05:50.960 But what's notable about this is that people eventually move on.

00:05:54.660 A lot of people who are facing down the activist mobs make the mistake of thinking

00:05:59.280 that the activist mob is actually going to stop whenever it gets what it wants.

00:06:03.480 No.

00:06:03.940 The nature of this mob is that they look for fights.

00:06:06.500 They look for fights anywhere and everywhere.

00:06:08.440 And if they win, they move on.

00:06:10.640 If they lose, they move on.

00:06:12.180 And they may ratchet it up.

00:06:13.700 It doesn't mean that it's going to be easy.

00:06:15.660 But these activists are interested in warfare.

00:06:18.400 They aren't interested in just these little isolated things that they may pick up,

00:06:22.140 that they may talk about as though they're the end of the world.

00:06:24.960 They're interested in the aggregate of all of them.

00:06:29.120 And there's something very important,

00:06:30.700 because these activist groups tend to get a lot of momentum going.

00:06:33.960 And when they get one or two little victories,

00:06:36.680 it tends to balloon into three or four and five.

00:06:40.300 And eventually, no one can say no,

00:06:42.560 which is why it's so notable when the Halifax Library stands up and says,

00:06:46.600 no, we're not going to censor the book.

00:06:48.240 And eventually, if Halifax holds firm,

00:06:50.560 these activists are going to have to move on.

00:06:53.520 Now, Halifax Pride is, in response to this,

00:06:56.480 boycotting its partnership with the library.

00:06:59.600 It isn't just one or two people connected with Pride

00:07:02.020 that are saying they don't want the book there, the organization itself.

00:07:05.340 Now, I don't know how influential it is.

00:07:07.020 I know Toronto Pride, for example,

00:07:08.560 is tremendously significant in terms of its size and clout.

00:07:12.820 I don't know if that's the case in Halifax.

00:07:15.080 Nevertheless, Halifax Pride has said

00:07:16.780 they will not have a relationship with the library.

00:07:20.080 No library events for its 2021 festival.

00:07:24.560 They won't book any library spaces until this is resolved

00:07:27.520 with some combination of internal review, policy change, and training.

00:07:32.940 So that, I think, is in and of itself revealing.

00:07:35.220 It's not just this book.

00:07:36.400 They want to make sure that no transcritical book 1.00

00:07:38.880 will ever be published in the future,

00:07:40.840 and if it is, that the library will never have it.

00:07:43.940 Now, I want to say something here,

00:07:45.120 and this, please don't take it the wrong way.

00:07:47.060 I am not for a second comparing Abigail Schreier to Hitler.

00:07:50.160 Sorry for the fulfillment of Godwin's Law to even invoke this.

00:07:54.000 But I know when book publishers are talking about Mein Kampf,

00:07:57.840 this debate comes up about whether it's important to have

00:08:00.680 as a historic record and not as an endorsement.

00:08:04.100 And I'm actually a firm believer in completeness in that sense.

00:08:07.300 It's important to have access to all forms of books

00:08:10.740 and all forms of literature

00:08:11.900 because every single book that's written and published

00:08:15.400 is a form of the historical record.

00:08:18.040 You don't need to agree with the point to read the book

00:08:21.140 and to think the book has a right to exist.

00:08:24.640 So if a library were to want to have Mein Kampf, for example,

00:08:28.400 I would not support a Jewish group protesting it 1.00

00:08:31.600 because I would say, listen, that book is a part of history.

00:08:35.740 If you want to start talking about burning books,

00:08:38.200 which is basically the equivalent of trying to strip a book

00:08:41.200 from a library shelf so people don't have the ability to access it,

00:08:44.660 especially since Abigail Schreier's book has been deplatformed

00:08:48.160 from any number of other institutions as well,

00:08:51.000 I think Amazon for a time, perhaps even now to this point,

00:08:54.040 it's still gone from there.

00:08:55.600 But I say this to point out it is easy.

00:08:58.700 It is very easy for me to sleep at night with my position

00:09:01.880 that free speech is the focal point.

00:09:04.760 Free speech is the goal.

00:09:06.860 And I don't need to debate the contents of individual books.

00:09:11.060 That's the real significant part of this.

00:09:13.100 If you believe in free speech,

00:09:14.840 you don't need to go line by line and audit every single book

00:09:18.560 because you're concerned about the message that book might send.

00:09:22.100 I probably disagree with, I don't know, 80 to 90% of the books

00:09:25.640 that are out there making a political point or a religious point.

00:09:29.120 I disagree with the Koran because I'm a Christian.

00:09:31.640 They disagree with the Bible because they're Muslim. 1.00

00:09:34.100 Jews disagree with Buddhist texts 0.72

00:09:36.360 and Buddhists disagree with Jewish texts

00:09:38.860 and all of this sort of stuff.

00:09:39.940 Now, agreement does not have to be the standard

00:09:44.280 to respect something's right to exist.

00:09:49.060 And this is the irony of this,

00:09:51.040 is that a lot of these trans activists are saying

00:09:52.840 they don't think the book should be allowed

00:09:54.780 because it questions their right to exist,

00:09:56.660 which from all the people that have read this book

00:09:58.900 that I've spoken to is not what the book says.

00:10:00.980 But their response is to deny this author's right to exist,

00:10:05.520 deny her voice in the landscape of literature.

00:10:08.580 And good on Halifax Public Library for standing up for it.

00:10:12.700 Just to pivot for a moment to another example of this,

00:10:15.700 there was a story in my city, in London, Ontario,

00:10:18.380 where a principal of a French Catholic school

00:10:21.760 has been canceled and fired two years after

00:10:25.400 some incident in which he put on at a cancer fundraiser

00:10:29.840 where everyone was cutting their hair, 0.96

00:10:31.700 the hair of a black student to pose for some silly little video. 0.96

00:10:35.820 The video went viral in the school, apparently. 0.93

00:10:39.320 And two years later, in 2021, this happened in 2019,

00:10:42.960 in 2021, Black Lives Matter seizes this, publishes the video,

00:10:47.240 and all of a sudden you've got people from all corners of society

00:10:50.100 calling for this principal to be fired.

00:10:52.820 The school board capitulated.

00:10:54.680 This principal, who had fun with some students

00:10:57.540 a couple of years ago doing something goofy,

00:10:59.680 and it doesn't sound like actually bothered the students

00:11:02.760 whose hair was picked up from the ground.

00:11:04.980 It's not entirely clear because this is all

00:11:07.220 kind of coming back to anonymous sources.

00:11:09.460 But no one seems to be offended in the moment.

00:11:11.580 Two years later, canceled and fired.

00:11:13.560 The activist mob didn't care about him.

00:11:15.820 They didn't care about this school.

00:11:17.540 They saw an opportunity to use something

00:11:20.340 as a weapon in the war they were already waging.

00:11:24.060 And the sooner we all realize that's what they're doing,

00:11:26.800 the better it's going to be.

00:11:29.240 Back in a moment.

00:11:30.140 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:11:38.360 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:11:40.920 Last week on the show, I talked a little bit about

00:11:44.160 Ontario's reopening plan that doesn't actually involve

00:11:47.560 any reopening.

00:11:49.080 I got a lot of feedback on that, mostly negative.

00:11:51.640 Not negative towards me, but negative towards Ontario,

00:11:55.360 who, just to give you a bit of a refresh on this,

00:11:57.720 the final step, the final step in the reopening plan

00:12:01.500 that's been put out says expanding access to indoor settings

00:12:05.460 with restrictions, including where there are larger numbers

00:12:09.340 of people and where face coverings can't always been worn.

00:12:12.580 So yes, Ontario's reopening plan is going to work up to eventually

00:12:16.220 some sports and rec facilities, indoor dining, museums, art galleries,

00:12:20.460 but always with restrictions.

00:12:23.020 And of course, they're not sharing what those restrictions are going to be.

00:12:27.300 Now, looking at Quebec's restrictions, they are a lot slower in nature.

00:12:33.000 They've finally released the curfew that was imposed for several months time.

00:12:39.000 On June 11th, they're going to allow patios to open.

00:12:41.620 On June 25th, they're going to allow day camps and some more outdoor activities in advance.

00:12:45.920 And by the end of August or later, which should never give anyone in Quebec any encouragement,

00:12:51.940 the end of August or later, progressive relief,

00:12:55.000 depending on the epidemiological situation and vaccination coverage,

00:12:59.260 if 75% of those aged 12 years or over have received a second dose.

00:13:05.480 They're talking about a progressive return, a gradual return at the end of August or later,

00:13:11.060 but they're requiring three quarters of the population to have had two doses of the vaccine,

00:13:16.180 of a COVID-19 vaccine.

00:13:18.080 Now, Ontario says on the surface level that it's using vaccination stats as the baseline here.

00:13:26.800 But as I pointed out on the weekend, there is a bit of a disconnect here because on one hand,

00:13:32.580 they've already crossed that threshold.

00:13:34.200 They've already had 65% of people get their first dose when we're supposed to be in step one,

00:13:39.360 which in and of itself is nothing to be too thrilled about when that's supposed to kick in at 60%.

00:13:45.120 So they're kind of making it up as they go here,

00:13:47.340 which is why we saw the flip-flop this week with the Toronto Maple Leafs

00:13:52.100 and Montreal Canadiens game at the Scotiabank Centre in Toronto.

00:13:56.700 Game seven, which I'm told is significant in hockey.

00:14:00.360 This is the first and last time, by the way, I will ever do a hockey story on this show

00:14:05.280 because the more I talk about it, the more I'm going to say something that makes absolutely no sense.

00:14:09.200 However, initially, there was a proposal to allow fully vaccinated health care workers

00:14:14.080 who, again, have been working away for the last 15 months to go to this game, have fun.

00:14:19.740 And then the province said no.

00:14:22.100 There was a huge wave of criticism towards the province.

00:14:25.600 And like 14 hours later, the province flipped on this and said 550 fully vaccinated frontline health care workers,

00:14:33.540 including hospital and long-term care staff, will be invited to attend game seven of the series

00:14:39.620 between the Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens at Scotiabank Arena tonight.

00:14:45.740 So they found a way to actually break their own law to respond to public pressure and allow this.

00:14:54.020 Now, let me be clear.

00:14:55.160 I have no issue with health care workers going to a sporting event.

00:14:58.320 I have no issue with that sporting event taking place.

00:15:01.540 My issue has been why can't everything else go on?

00:15:05.400 Just like I talked a couple of months back about the double standard between churches,

00:15:09.800 which have been shut down by governments, and churches being used as film sets, which have been opened up,

00:15:15.660 my view on this, and still to this day, is that anything that can be done safely should be done safely.

00:15:22.460 So if we're allowing health care workers to gather in a sporting venue,

00:15:26.380 why can't we allow other people to gather in sporting venues?

00:15:29.540 If we're allowing film sets to film in churches, why can't we let churches open?

00:15:34.260 I'm going to be speaking in a couple of moments' time with Lisa Bildy of the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms,

00:15:40.160 who's representing the Church of God in Elmer,

00:15:42.040 which is having fewer than 550 people come together in its parking lot for services

00:15:47.680 and still facing relentless charges and prosecution from the Ontario government.

00:15:53.780 And what's more, we had on the weekend a worship in the square in Waterloo.

00:15:57.960 Four pastors, including Jacob Rayome and Michael Thiessen and Aaron Rock,

00:16:02.400 who came together and said, we're going to just have worship outside in Waterloo.

00:16:06.180 I would bet there's not going to be a single documented transmission of COVID that comes from this event.

00:16:12.520 And to be clear, I haven't learned of any charges taking place.

00:16:15.860 So I don't want to jinx it for the folks in Waterloo that gathered together and had worship.

00:16:21.300 But the point is that people are starting to see through all of these measures,

00:16:25.720 which right now are not necessary.

00:16:27.960 COVID cases, if you use those as the benchmark, as the government does, continue to go down.

00:16:33.180 Outdoor transmission has been proven to be negligible or non-existent, depending on the study, and even indoor.

00:16:40.960 We're talking about a venue here that takes thousands and thousands of people.

00:16:44.400 20,000 folks can fit into Scotiabank Arena.

00:16:47.480 And the government was at first saying, no, we can't allow 550 in,

00:16:52.340 but now is saying, well, okay, that's fine.

00:16:55.440 So this actually proves they have to be somewhat responsive to bad PR.

00:16:58.920 Although that hasn't really worked with all of the anti-lockdown bad PR that the government's been getting from people

00:17:05.300 that are saying, hey, what's the holdup?

00:17:07.440 Why can't we reopen?

00:17:09.280 For pretty much all of the last six months, Toronto has been in lockdown.

00:17:14.100 Montreal, same boat.

00:17:15.600 Other cities, other jurisdictions have had a bit of a different story here.

00:17:18.960 But in Canada, we were promised that one dose summer without really anyone articulating what that would look like.

00:17:24.740 Doug Ford has come out and said Ontario gets to have a two-dose summer.

00:17:29.760 Whoop-dee-doo. 0.97

00:17:30.700 Based on what we know about upcoming shipments,

00:17:33.980 everyone in Ontario who wants a vaccine could be fully vaccinated by the end of August.

00:17:40.000 That's right, friends.

00:17:41.260 Ontario is ready to deliver a two-dose summer.

00:17:44.360 But that two-dose summer isn't really going to do anything

00:17:46.700 if the restrictions, as the Ontario roadmap suggests, are going to be in place indefinitely.

00:17:52.220 A reopening plan has to actually have reopening.

00:17:56.680 And not just in a one-off, isolated situation to make the media happy

00:18:01.000 by letting healthcare workers go to a game,

00:18:03.160 but by actually reopening and letting everyone else in the province do the same thing.

00:18:07.640 When we come back, more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:18:14.500 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:17.280 We are back on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:24.020 Another day in Canada, which means still more attempts by government,

00:18:28.540 specifically in Ontario, to go after churches for wanting to assemble

00:18:33.020 as the Constitution guarantees and as their faiths have commanded them to for generations.

00:18:39.120 Most notably, we see this happening in Elmer, Ontario with the Church of God.

00:18:43.700 We've had the pastor there, Pastor Henry Hildebrandt, on the show in the past.

00:18:48.140 And this week, the Church of God was back in court again at the behest of the Ontario government,

00:18:54.060 trying to impose more penalties, more findings of contempt.

00:18:58.160 And the judge, after a relatively short hearing,

00:19:00.820 had actually imposed tens of thousands of dollars more in fines on the church and on its pastor.

00:19:07.380 Representing them has been Lisa Bildy,

00:19:09.500 a lawyer with the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms.

00:19:12.060 Lisa, good to have you back. Thanks for coming on today.

00:19:14.840 Hi, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

00:19:16.680 So this was, I mean, as far as the long-standing back and forth we've seen on this case,

00:19:23.140 was there anything particularly unique about this hearing,

00:19:26.500 or was it just, you know, another round of fines?

00:19:29.860 Well, it was a little bit different in that it feels like things are maybe settling down a little bit.

00:19:36.560 And even though we were back in court on, you know, contempt proceedings, which is a very serious matter,

00:19:41.980 the last time we did this, the government made sure to tell the court all about all the transgressions

00:19:48.220 and, you know, right to the last minute telling about any other subsequent services that had happened

00:19:53.640 since they had filed their motion.

00:19:55.120 They didn't do that this time.

00:19:56.260 And I thought that was interesting, and I noted it in court,

00:19:59.380 that basically when they had their service on May 16th,

00:20:04.080 which is what we were talking about in the contempt proceedings today,

00:20:08.160 they had 300 people in attendance.

00:20:10.900 And then there were two more services, and there were more people in attendance.

00:20:14.040 And so it seems like, as a public health measure, this isn't really working.

00:20:17.600 The more they come down hard on this church,

00:20:20.480 the more people want to turn up and show their support.

00:20:23.040 And so, you know, I think it's interesting that it felt a little bit more subdued this time.

00:20:28.660 And I do hope that, especially as we're moving into the summer

00:20:31.380 and things are starting to open up a little bit more, hopefully,

00:20:34.680 and more outdoor services are going to be permitted in the near future,

00:20:38.660 that the temperature will be turned down on all of this.

00:20:42.080 I know it came up at the hearing a week and a half ago,

00:20:45.580 which ultimately was the one that was adjourned to today.

00:20:48.560 And the judge had mentioned, you know, there's not much more that can be done.

00:20:51.960 We can keep putting these fines on, but if the church is going to keep continuing to assemble

00:20:56.780 and having these services, which are now outdoor, the government has limited means on this.

00:21:01.820 So in a lot of ways, is the government kind of conceding?

00:21:04.860 I know that was the judge that said that, but is the government conceding that

00:21:08.440 this is sort of just going to be this repetitive process?

00:21:11.360 And that might be why, as you've just said, it's losing a bit of steam?

00:21:15.960 Well, it could be this repetitive process, but they also could escalate things.

00:21:19.880 And they could make this criminal contempt, and they could seek to have the pastor put in jail.

00:21:25.560 But I think probably most people recognize now, and we've done this a few times in Alberta,

00:21:30.780 it doesn't necessarily solve the problem, and it absolutely hardens people's positions.

00:21:36.220 And in fact, probably triggers more people to say, you know, what's going on?

00:21:40.300 Is this really a public health crisis, or is there something else going on?

00:21:43.900 So it's not just a benefit to do it that way.

00:21:46.820 One comment the judge made at the hearing that stood out was that

00:21:51.260 Pastor Hildebrandt has positioned himself as, and I'm quoting directly here,

00:21:55.280 the face of the resistance in a way.

00:21:57.900 And then he went on to say there are consequences that must flow from that.

00:22:01.580 And that, to me, seems to reinforce what you've said in court in the past,

00:22:05.260 which is that the government does really seem to be targeting this particular church.

00:22:10.380 I mean, we've learned of rallies that have been taking place elsewhere for any number of causes

00:22:14.740 that have not raised the ire of the state.

00:22:16.740 But they are continuing, or have been up until this week,

00:22:19.920 to really devote a disproportionate amount of energy on this particular church and this particular pastor.

00:22:26.680 Well, it certainly seems that way, and certainly to him.

00:22:29.820 You know, there have been other rallies, as you know.

00:22:33.300 And in the affidavit that I had quickly scrambled to put together,

00:22:36.520 at the last minute before the hearing, when they first, the government had brought this,

00:22:41.080 we talked about this in your last show,

00:22:42.600 the government had brought a motion the morning of the court date that we were supposed to respond to.

00:22:48.740 So I had thrown together an affidavit that had some articles about the recent Palestinian protests.

00:22:54.760 And, of course, those aren't subject to court order.

00:22:56.740 But the reason they're not subject to court order is because nobody's bothered to ticket them

00:23:00.000 and take them to that level of enforcement.

00:23:03.560 But they have done that with a couple of the churches.

00:23:06.140 And so I've been told, and so I didn't raise them in my submissions today,

00:23:10.460 but, you know, that the judge isn't interested in hearing about, you know, what's going on with other protests.

00:23:17.780 We're focusing on this church.

00:23:19.100 Did they violate the court order?

00:23:21.420 And the answer is yes.

00:23:22.740 And so really, you know, the arguments that I can make in this context are extremely limited,

00:23:27.280 and they were, because really it's kind of an open and shut case.

00:23:32.040 There's an order.

00:23:32.700 They knew about it.

00:23:33.360 They breached it.

00:23:34.120 We're done.

00:23:36.040 But I think that is relevant.

00:23:37.640 And I think it's relevant to the broader question of if we're trying to protect,

00:23:40.920 preserve the judicial integrity, the judicial system's integrity, the rule of law,

00:23:47.020 we can't have certain rules applying to some people and not to others,

00:23:52.020 because the people who are being targeted are, of course, going to take the position

00:23:56.040 that they're being particularly singled out, that they're being oppressed by it.

00:23:59.440 So it is important in a system that is grounded on the rule of law that there be equality of treatment.

00:24:05.700 Now, I'm not saying that there should be fines for the people who are attending the Palestinian protests.

00:24:10.560 They're entitled to protest.

00:24:12.060 They have a good cause, perhaps, that they want to protest it, in their view, or not.

00:24:16.180 I mean, you know, that's part of the living in a democracy.

00:24:19.160 People get to express, through peaceful protests, their views, and whether you agree with them or not.

00:24:24.280 So, you know, I'm all for them having the right to protest, but there shouldn't be a double standard.

00:24:30.060 I think that's a very important point.

00:24:32.800 And looking forward here, we know that the government has had the doors of the church locked.

00:24:40.140 This is why, I mean, the weather's getting nicer, so it works out well,

00:24:43.280 that if the church is very much passionate and dedicated about having outdoor services,

00:24:48.140 it's a little bit more tenable now than it would have been, say, in mid-January.

00:24:52.540 But long term, we're starting to see some restrictions ease in Ontario,

00:24:57.480 and I say that with some reticence, and it's a topic that we've covered in different contexts on this show.

00:25:02.440 But suppose the restrictions lift to such a point that it would be viable and lawful

00:25:08.180 in the government's eyes for the church to assemble inside.

00:25:10.560 Are those locks automatically going to come off?

00:25:13.620 Not automatically, but if we get to the point where we're allowed to have at least 30% occupancy in the building,

00:25:20.000 we have a court-ordered right to come back to court on two days' notice in order to try and change the order.

00:25:26.780 And I expect that that would be granted.

00:25:28.540 I don't think that they want to be, you know, the judge doesn't want to be unnecessarily punitive to the church.

00:25:34.860 They're not trying to keep them out forever, but as we argued in a previous hearing,

00:25:40.400 when it was at 30%, there really weren't enforcement issues,

00:25:43.720 and so that seems to be a good threshold for allowing them to return inside their building.

00:25:48.580 But unfortunately, you know, the government hasn't really laid out a framework that shows us

00:25:52.580 when this is going to be done or whether it's ever going to be done.

00:25:55.320 And what's going to happen in the fall is, you know, it's still very uncertain.

00:25:58.540 I mean, I don't think we're through the woods on all of this yet,

00:26:00.380 even if it does open a little bit this summer.

00:26:03.860 So I guess what is the next step here?

00:26:06.360 I mean, are you, I know you don't want to be in the prediction game necessarily,

00:26:09.720 but from what you were saying at the beginning of the interview,

00:26:12.360 that it seems like some of the heat's coming off,

00:26:15.140 are you thinking that this is going to continue,

00:26:18.280 this sort of, you know, lifting the foot off the gas pedal,

00:26:21.940 such as it is from an enforcement perspective?

00:26:24.600 Well, I don't know for sure, and I can't predict,

00:26:27.340 and I don't really want to predict.

00:26:28.520 As you say, it is hard to know.

00:26:30.500 It seems like maybe people all need a breather all around.

00:26:34.740 We all recognize that things are escalating,

00:26:36.860 and it doesn't go anywhere good.

00:26:39.780 I mean, from the church's perspective,

00:26:41.760 the more that people, the more they're enforced against,

00:26:44.600 the more people come out.

00:26:45.500 So maybe it's to their benefit on some strange level

00:26:48.820 that, you know, more people come out,

00:26:50.520 and as Pastor Hildebrand has said in his services,

00:26:53.120 you know, they're coming and they're, you know,

00:26:55.420 finding Christ, which is his job.

00:26:58.200 His job, as he sees it, is to save souls, right?

00:27:00.860 So the more people who come out, the better.

00:27:03.740 But from a general societal perspective,

00:27:06.200 from the government's perspective,

00:27:07.560 it really doesn't benefit anybody

00:27:10.000 to keep us coming back into court week after week after week.

00:27:13.800 It probably, it doesn't solve the public health issue. 0.95

00:27:16.140 It doesn't protect the integrity of the system,

00:27:18.780 particularly in my view.

00:27:20.020 Others may disagree.

00:27:22.500 And, you know, frankly, it's a lot of work

00:27:24.120 for the government, too,

00:27:26.460 to keep having to come back into court

00:27:28.300 with all these materials.

00:27:30.000 And the relationship with the police, also.

00:27:33.040 You know, they're depending on the police

00:27:35.540 to go out to the church every week

00:27:37.100 and to monitor and to gather evidence.

00:27:39.560 You know, the relationship between the community

00:27:41.700 and the police is one that is important

00:27:43.720 not to completely destroy.

00:27:47.360 I mean, it takes a lot to develop trust

00:27:50.880 in your police force.

00:27:51.940 You know, these are guys walking around with guns,

00:27:54.680 women, too, 1.00

00:27:56.160 and they need to earn the trust of their community

00:27:59.700 that they police.

00:28:01.000 And most of them do that.

00:28:03.000 But when things get to the point

00:28:04.440 where they've got drones flying over the church

00:28:06.180 and it really feels like it's very targeted,

00:28:08.360 those relationships get very strained.

00:28:10.320 And I think it probably is good

00:28:11.640 for everybody just to take a deep breath,

00:28:13.440 settle down a little bit,

00:28:14.500 and, you know, get back to just

00:28:17.180 trying to work together

00:28:19.080 a little bit more constructively.

00:28:21.920 I know we talked last time you were on the show

00:28:24.400 about the bigger picture aspect of this.

00:28:26.560 The constitutional hearing has been scheduled

00:28:28.860 for this church and other churches

00:28:30.780 in one sort of omnibus hearing in October.

00:28:33.540 So still a considerable period of time between now.

00:28:37.280 When that time comes,

00:28:39.020 will it matter if the Church of God

00:28:41.540 and other churches in this action

00:28:43.160 can point to these services they've been having

00:28:45.140 and say, we haven't seen an uptick in cases,

00:28:47.600 we haven't seen any demonstrable

00:28:49.800 public health challenges or outbreaks from this?

00:28:52.060 Is any of that going to be relevant

00:28:53.800 when these are going to a full hearing on the merits?

00:28:57.800 Well, I think they're certainly relevant.

00:29:00.520 You know, one of the reasons

00:29:01.320 why we've had all these restrictions

00:29:02.560 is allegedly to control the spread of outbreaks.

00:29:05.420 And as we've learned more about the science,

00:29:07.440 unfortunately, the political measures

00:29:10.640 have not really kept pace with what we've learned.

00:29:13.120 So, for example, there is good evidence now,

00:29:15.940 very solid evidence,

00:29:17.140 that asymptomatic spread is really not a concern.

00:29:20.840 It's not something in a meta-analysis of 54 studies,

00:29:25.560 it was concluded.

00:29:26.780 And so that's very good science, by the way,

00:29:28.420 because when you analyze 54 different studies,

00:29:31.820 you're effectively getting rid of

00:29:33.520 any of the deficiencies in any particular one.

00:29:36.180 And they were all done on households,

00:29:38.340 where you're getting rid of a lot of the variables.

00:29:40.520 So in 54 studies of household transmission,

00:29:43.900 asymptomatic spread was found only to occur 0.7% of the time.

00:29:48.260 So seven out of a thousand times.

00:29:50.780 And so, so many of these measures that we have

00:29:52.980 are predicated on there being,

00:29:55.420 you know, we have to be fearful of healthy people

00:29:57.580 because they may unknowingly be spreading the virus.

00:30:00.800 And the science is evolving to show us

00:30:04.520 that maybe that is not so much a concern.

00:30:06.700 And same thing with outdoors.

00:30:08.320 You know, the science is also showing

00:30:11.880 that there's very little, like maybe a percent

00:30:14.180 of spread that can be attributed

00:30:16.120 to any outdoor gatherings.

00:30:17.620 So the fact that the churches have been largely,

00:30:22.300 you know, they haven't contributed

00:30:23.420 to any spread in their communities

00:30:24.760 that has been traced to them,

00:30:27.080 I think it's going to be very relevant evidence.

00:30:30.060 And of course, we'll have our expert evidence as well

00:30:31.940 to bring all those studies into court.

00:30:34.340 Good, yeah.

00:30:35.060 And look, I mean, I'm kind of a purist

00:30:37.480 on the constitutional grounds in this sense

00:30:39.440 and saying, listen, freedom of religion,

00:30:41.320 freedom of assembly.

00:30:42.240 But when the government has positioned everything

00:30:44.700 as being a part of these reasonable limits

00:30:47.200 that we all know tend to define

00:30:49.260 the constitutional freedoms,

00:30:50.920 it is very important to be able to say

00:30:52.700 that those limits are not grounded in science.

00:30:54.440 And you're very right that in Ontario

00:30:56.180 and in other jurisdictions,

00:30:57.300 the more we've learned about it,

00:30:59.580 at the same time,

00:31:00.560 restrictions also seem to have gone

00:31:02.160 the other direction.

00:31:03.120 So I appreciate your work on this.

00:31:05.140 Lisa Bildy from the Justice Center

00:31:06.620 for Constitutional Freedoms.

00:31:08.220 Always a pleasure.

00:31:09.160 Thanks, Andrew.

00:31:10.360 That was Lisa Bildy, tremendous lawyer 0.99

00:31:12.720 and also tremendous advocate for liberty.

00:31:15.640 Very grateful to have her on the show.

00:31:17.820 I know it has been,

00:31:18.960 as I think I joked with Lisa last time we had her on, 0.69

00:31:21.580 all of these constitutional lawyers

00:31:23.300 have been working over time

00:31:24.380 and I think will continue to.

00:31:25.800 So it's been good to get them to peel away

00:31:28.400 for this show when they can

00:31:30.420 to talk about these cases.

00:31:31.880 And another big one

00:31:32.720 that I'm actually covering this week

00:31:34.860 involving the Justice Center

00:31:36.580 for Constitutional Freedoms

00:31:37.880 that I'll have more to say about,

00:31:39.600 I think, on the next show

00:31:41.020 involves the hotel quarantine case.

00:31:43.280 That is a federal challenge.

00:31:45.020 That's going on as well.

00:31:46.240 And that's quite a lengthy hearing.

00:31:48.220 So we'll talk about that later this week.

00:31:50.080 But I do want to give a big thank you

00:31:51.420 to all of you for tuning into the show today.

00:31:53.200 We'll be back in a couple days' time

00:31:54.960 with more of Canada's

00:31:56.140 most irreverent talk show

00:31:57.520 here on True North.

00:31:58.700 Thank you, God bless, and good day.

00:32:00.560 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:32:02.660 Support the program by donating to True North

00:32:04.700 at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 01, 2021

The New Book Burners

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