Juno News - The Politics of Grief

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.740 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:13.000 Reflections on the horrific attack against a Muslim family in London, Ontario,

00:00:17.300 a conversation with Raheel Raza, and more coming up on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:24.120 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:00:35.100 It is Thursday, June 10th, 2021, and I thank you so much for tuning into the show here.

00:00:41.500 I want to begin by talking about something that happened not that far from where I live,

00:00:46.920 in my city, just a few kilometers away, which has shaken not just the city,

00:00:51.660 but also the country and the world.

00:00:53.720 And that is the horrific attack that took place on a Muslim family earlier this week,

00:00:59.060 an attack that claimed four lives and has left a nine-year-old boy without his sister,

00:01:04.100 without his parents, and without his grandmother, recovering from severe injuries in hospital.

00:01:10.240 The murder, which is what we can very easily call it, of the Afzal family, is horrific 1.00

00:01:15.720 and does not represent the Canada that I want and does not represent the Canada that I know.

00:01:21.740 And I had some people email me earlier this week wondering why I didn't talk about this on the

00:01:26.660 previous show.

00:01:27.640 The simple reality is that I recorded my show as a lot of the news was still coming out,

00:01:32.140 and I knew that anything I said by the time the show had been released would be outdated.

00:01:36.280 It wasn't for lack of concern.

00:01:38.780 Quite the contrary, it was for a desire to ensure that I knew what I was talking about when I opened my

00:01:44.120 mouth and spoke up about this, as I do with any other issue, as I certainly try to do with any

00:01:49.980 other issue. What police have said is that this was intentional and that this was an attack that

00:01:55.240 targeted this family specifically for their faith. Police have charged the accused killer with four

00:02:02.880 counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. They said very early on they believed that

00:02:08.820 his motivation was specifically targeted towards the family's Islamic faith. Now, I have no reason 0.95

00:02:15.600 to doubt the London police. They are historically quite tight-lipped on things, which means if they

00:02:21.200 were able to say that with confidence quite early on, it would be something that they were pretty sure

00:02:27.900 of. And I think that's something that needs to be taken into consideration. And all of us across the

00:02:34.080 country, across the world, should look at this and say this was a horrific act of evil. I hope the

00:02:38.800 perpetrator of it never sees the light of day. I know that he was arrested and charged, so there

00:02:45.820 will be an opportunity for him to speak up about whatever he was thinking and trying to do. And yes,

00:02:51.060 you know, he'll get his day in court, but the reality is this was an act of evil. And it's become,

00:02:57.900 however, a political episode, which is so tremendously lamentable. And it didn't take long. There was a vigil on

00:03:06.880 Tuesday night in London at the London Muslim Mosque, just down the street from where this attack

00:03:11.960 happened. And when the vigil was announced very quickly, all of the politicians in Canada were

00:03:17.900 soon to announce their dissent on London, from Justin Trudeau to Aaron O'Toole, Jagmeet Singh,

00:03:23.480 even Yves-Francois Blaché, Doug Ford, Andrea Horvath, Stephen Del Duca, all of these names of political

00:03:30.400 leaders, federally and provincially, city, everyone, everyone was there. And to show support for a

00:03:37.100 family and for a community is important. But a lot of them didn't do that. And that was regrettable.

00:03:44.600 In fact, a lot of the speakers didn't even mention the family. They brought up political fights and

00:03:52.320 political issues. And I grappled with this as I watched it. Because by responding to this, by

00:04:01.020 responding to their politicization of it, I have to engage in a political discussion that I do not

00:04:07.240 want to have. Because I wanted to be able to, as a Londoner, grieve with the community. I wanted to be

00:04:13.620 able to stand up for this beautiful family. Yumna, 15. Medea, 44. Talat, 74. Salman, 46. And the nine-year-old

00:04:25.680 Fayez in hospital. A family, 80% of which, was wiped out because of one horrific act. Unjustified,

00:04:39.200 undeserved, just awful. So I want to be able to look at this loss and not have to engage in a political

00:04:52.060 debate, which was shamefully where this loss was taken by a number of activists who are insistent

00:05:00.000 on making changes to the political system, changes to free speech, changes to any number of areas of

00:05:05.880 Canadian policy throughout the year. That seemed to jump onto this issue as being their avenue to

00:05:15.320 advance some change on this. And I want to play a few clips from the vigil that took place in London,

00:05:23.640 where a few speakers went political, without question. One of them was Nawaz Tahir, a London lawyer.

00:05:31.000 I've met him. He's a very decent man. He's a very smart man. He runs a local anti-Islamophobia group

00:05:37.240 in London. He didn't mention the family at all in his remarks. He instead spoke about freedom of

00:05:43.840 expression and how freedom of expression doesn't matter in Canada when a family like the Afzal family 1.00

00:05:52.560 winds up dead. And to those who want to hold the Constitution, to those who want to hide behind

00:06:01.080 freedom of expression, I ask you a simple question. What is the point of freedom of expression

00:06:09.520 if a Canadian family does not have the freedom to walk on a sidewalk in this country without getting

00:06:17.820 murdered? So I say, I say to all of our political leaders that are here today, we are in a war against

00:06:35.360 hate. And that war requires nonpartisanship. It requires cooperation. It requires united leadership

00:06:44.820 and action. People grieve in different ways. People get angry. I get it. But the reality is

00:06:51.800 taking aim at free speech because of some unspeakable horror does not do anything to prevent

00:06:58.520 evil, does not do anything to prevent the future occurrences, which we hope do not exist, of evil.

00:07:06.600 No connection whatsoever. Yes, you have a right to life. You also have a right to freedom of speech.

00:07:13.160 These are not mutually exclusive. Free speech did not kill the Afzal family.

00:07:20.300 And it's disingenuous and, I'll be honest, disgusting to say it did.

00:07:27.240 But this is where the debate has gone. A very similar comment from another speaker who said we

00:07:33.820 need to criminalize Islamophobia.

00:07:36.360 The Muslim community and MAC is demanding from our political leadership that we take steps

00:07:44.180 towards addressing the root causes of Islamophobia, including criminalizing Islamophobia.

00:07:51.000 We ask and demand from our governments that they take steps towards eradicating systemic

00:08:06.580 Islamophobia. There is no reason why a Muslim, any man or woman, in fact, should be suspected of

00:08:16.480 being an extremist because of their faith. There is no reason why a Muslim charity or a Muslim 1.00

00:08:23.860 organization becomes suspected of terrorism because of the religion it upholds. Enough is enough.

00:08:32.000 I don't know what it is he's actually proposing. But again, I can say free speech did not claim this

00:08:37.460 but whether it was these two speakers or even NDP leader Jagmeet Singh, who got into it as well. And

00:08:46.680 while he did express a great deal of solidarity with the community, with the family, he could not

00:08:52.660 resist the urge to veer into politics.

00:08:55.840 And what we need to do now is real action. After this act, how many more lives have to be taken

00:09:02.100 before we act? How many more Muslim brothers and sisters have to lose their lives before real

00:09:08.240 change is put in place? We need real action.

00:09:14.900 I don't claim to have all the answers, but I put three things before you.

00:09:19.500 One, never again should any political leader ever use Islamophobia for political gain.

00:09:28.760 That can never happen again. Never, ever. There is no space for that. Let us all agree.

00:09:38.960 Secondly, the real and urgent threat to Canadians' lives, the real and urgent threat is coming from 0.83

00:09:45.280 hate. It's coming from extremist right-wing ideology. It's coming from white supremacy.

00:09:51.280 So let's put resources towards the real and urgent threat against Canadians.

00:09:59.040 And finally, I know my time is up. I'll just wrap up with this last point.

00:10:03.240 We need to tackle online hate. In each case of hate against Muslims, in each case where we saw

00:10:10.400 violence against Muslims in the Quebec shooting, in the killing of a brother in Toronto, in the

00:10:15.240 violence against Muslim women in Edmonton, we know that this is happening from radicalization

00:10:20.040 happening online. So we have to be serious about fighting hate online so that hate has no space

00:10:26.020 to radicalize future violent actions. Frankly, the volume of politicians, not just in attendance,

00:10:33.160 but with speaking slots probably didn't help. And the organizers wanted to give everyone a chance

00:10:38.160 to speak from Justin Trudeau to Aaron O'Toole, Jagmeet Singh. But the reality is it gets a little

00:10:43.140 excessive and it makes their really come across as an overwhelmingly political tone when you have

00:10:48.800 every federal and provincial opposition leader and different city councillors that are all

00:10:52.840 speaking all effectively, you'd hope, saying the same thing. And I will say Justin Trudeau

00:10:57.520 was the one who gave a very valuable contribution when he spoke about the family, the way the family was

00:11:05.520 viewed and valued by the community. Aaron O'Toole as well spoke about the family. He added something

00:11:10.660 in the sense of making sure that the focus was on this family who was being mourned.

00:11:17.380 There were a few criticisms I saw on Twitter, even from Muslims in London, saying that the cheering

00:11:22.460 and the hooting and the hollering was a little bit much for something that was supposed to be a

00:11:26.900 vigilant. And I agree. I agree wholeheartedly with that. And it actually became somewhat of an applause

00:11:33.560 line whenever someone called it a terrorist attack. As Trudeau and Aaron O'Toole and Doug Ford and all of

00:11:41.720 these leaders have. But whenever anyone called it a terrorist attack, they were almost cheered for it.

00:11:47.740 And it looked in many ways like a rally. And it's not to say that everyone needed to be sobbing. It's not

00:11:55.340 to say that it needed to be a solemn occasion. People need to grieve the way it is comfortable for them

00:12:00.020 to do so. But it was very clear that there were people there that wanted to take this tragedy and

00:12:06.160 turn it into something that was a political weapon. And for a lot of people, the personal is the

00:12:12.840 political. I get it. I get that wholeheartedly. But it did not sit well with me, nor with a lot of other

00:12:19.340 people. If I look at a lot of the comments that were written about the vigil as it was going on

00:12:24.000 online. And to turn this into something takes away from what needs to be front and center,

00:12:32.560 which is understanding that evil happens, trying to do whatever you can possible to prevent someone

00:12:40.220 from launching an attack of this nature on anyone. And yes, to speak out. To speak out if you see

00:12:47.680 attitudes, views, and values that do not have a place in Canadian society.

00:12:56.020 But the reality is thousands of people flock to the streets because they wanted to show their

00:13:03.420 support. And for all of those people saying that that does not speak for London, that that does not

00:13:10.140 speak for Canada, but that the one guy in a truck does, are missing significantly on what it is that

00:13:18.200 this country is. The number of people, I've seen this online in the last few days, who are looking

00:13:23.460 at this and kind of extrapolating it as though he speaks for a broader constituency that is dominant

00:13:29.020 in Canada is simply not true. And that this is being woven into an existing narrative that a lot of

00:13:38.580 activists have tried to put forward about Canada is very disingenuous and takes away from what needs

00:13:46.240 to be the focal point, which is how do we support this nine-year-old who will never have the life that

00:13:52.360 he was supposed to have? How do we support the cousins and aunts and uncles of this family

00:13:57.480 who have this significant void in their life? And how do we support a Muslim community in London,

00:14:05.500 in Canada, that feels it is under threat, that feels it is under attack? And how do you resist

00:14:13.040 these political overtures without perpetuating this belief that such criticisms are Islamophobic,

00:14:21.540 which was an increasing component of a lot of these remarks? I don't have the answers to all of

00:14:27.900 these questions. In fact, I don't have the answers to any of them at this point. But they're things that

00:14:32.220 need to be said, things that need to be asked. I want to delve into this in a bit more depth with

00:14:36.660 Raheel Raza. She is the president of the Council for Muslims Facing Tomorrow and joins me now. Raheel,

00:14:43.220 thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Andrew. It's my pleasure. Now, this was obviously a horrific

00:14:49.040 story. We've seen people around the country, around the world that have rallied in support of this

00:14:55.400 family. As a Muslim woman, a Pakistani Canadian, how did you feel when you heard about this?

00:15:00.960 It's devastating. So very tragic. But Andrew, not just as a Muslim, but as a human being,

00:15:08.800 the fact that four members of a family were killed in this attack and the nine-year-old boy was

00:15:16.100 seriously injured, it just breaks my heart. My grandson is about the same age. And I think about

00:15:22.240 this young boy's future. And I wonder, will he grow up just distrusting people? Will he grow up

00:15:29.060 thinking that there's evil and violence around him? The good news is that he is out of danger. And I

00:15:36.540 believe, I read that his aunt and uncle are going to adopt him, which of course is a good thing. But

00:15:43.620 you know, it's heart-rending. It's heartbreaking. As a mother, as a grandmother, I can't stop thinking

00:15:49.040 about the family and what the extended family must be going through. Indeed. And you know, everyone who

00:15:55.080 knows this family said they were tremendous people, very integrated in their Muslim community and also

00:16:00.940 in the London community where I live. And when so many people rallied behind and have donated

00:16:07.540 hundreds of thousands of dollars to support the boy's future, not that any amount of money can undo it,

00:16:13.460 but there's been a level of support for this family. And when the community had a vigil this

00:16:20.340 week, I was hoping that there would be just a moment to respect and honour this loss. And I was

00:16:27.260 very unsettled at what seemed to be a very quick politicisation of what you rightfully characterise

00:16:33.960 as being a tragedy and as being an act of evil. Yes. So this is where it is so troubling and so

00:16:40.940 disturbing because the aftermath of the tragedy when things are supposed to be settling down is even,

00:16:45.900 you know, tragic and, and, and sort of so dismal in so many ways, because, you know, politicians are

00:16:52.160 already making it to the fullest and community leaders. They hold all the aces now. And nothing can be

00:16:59.620 said, because if anyone says anything, they're going to be slapped with a, you know, a racism label. And,

00:17:06.080 you know, it, it brings me back to M 103. You know, when motion 103 was first introduced, I had spoken in

00:17:15.120 parliament against it saying, and I'd written an op-ed saying that it will divide Canadians. And this is

00:17:21.360 exactly what I see happening, that, you know, it's only going to create a rift. And there are people,

00:17:29.520 community leaders who are just promoting their own agendas. You know, I read that at the vigil,

00:17:37.680 one of the leaders, Muslim leaders of the community connected what happened in Israel and Gaza to what

00:17:43.580 has happened in London, Ontario. I mean, that is so, so unacceptable. That is so horrific.

00:17:49.780 Okay. And then I heard on Hakikat TV from Pakistan, where there was a whole news item about this

00:17:58.760 tragedy. And, you know, I am originally from Pakistan, so I understand the language. And there

00:18:03.960 was a whole news item about the London tragedy in which they said that this is a Jewish conspiracy,

00:18:09.300 and it's going to happen all around the world. That was bad enough. But there are people here,

00:18:16.100 community leaders who are retweeting. So this is something that has gone out into the public. I

00:18:23.440 mean, what does this make Canadians feel? You know? Yes. And it turns people into political cudgels

00:18:32.820 and political weapons. And to your point about M103, I've had directed at me because I spoke out

00:18:38.060 against M103, as did you, as did countless of our colleagues. And I've had people put the blame at

00:18:44.360 those who spoke out against M103. Even conservative politicians who spoke up this week in a very candid

00:18:52.580 and a very, I'd say, moving way were said, well, your thoughts don't matter because you voted against

00:18:57.920 M103. And I'm sorry to be so crass. M103 passed, and this still happened. So the idea that that motion

00:19:05.280 prevention prevents hatred, as police have said was at the root of this, is simply not true. But

00:19:11.840 it is used for political division. You're right. Yes. I mean, this tragedy that happened was an

00:19:17.720 immense tragedy. But the fact that it is being politicized, and the fact that there are people

00:19:22.340 who are using it to promote their own agendas, and everyone is finding some way to promote their

00:19:27.040 agenda, is absolutely unacceptable. In this country, this is a free country, people should be allowed,

00:19:33.400 you know, to express their opinions, and criticize, you know, I've always said this. So M103 has not

00:19:41.340 stopped any hate. Hate is a learned behavior. I think what has happened with this tragedy is that it's given,

00:19:48.420 first of all, it's shocked Canadians that it's happened in our country. And secondly, I think it is time to

00:19:54.240 reflect and see where we've come. And what do we need to do about the hate? Because obviously, it's been taught.

00:20:00.960 So we need to go to the root cause of whether hate is being taught, they need to be educational

00:20:06.600 programs. I mean, the Prime Minister very confidently says that, you know, there is systemic racism in

00:20:12.740 Canada. And of course, the community leaders grab this as an opportunity to milk the issue. But,

00:20:20.620 you know, there are going to be now laws camping down on free speech and censorship, when that is not the

00:20:27.160 solution, but part of the problem. When you stifle free speech in a free country, it creates problems.

00:20:34.620 You know, free speech is important. Yes, of course, we have to speak out against xenophobia and bigotry.

00:20:41.140 And, you know, there have been attacks on Asians in BC, and the LGBT community is constantly under

00:20:47.000 attack. And of course, you know, these have to be addressed. This is not to say that there is no racism.

00:20:52.580 Of course, there is, but we have to directly address that. But to stifle free speech, and to have

00:20:57.820 censorship and to have laws that don't allow people to critique something that is terribly wrong,

00:21:04.160 is even worse, because that causes problems.

00:21:07.660 It does. And at this vigil, one individual spoke up and said, one of the official speakers and said,

00:21:14.000 we need to, his words were criminalize Islamophobia. Another who's actually a lawyer said,

00:21:19.960 you can't hide behind the Constitution and freedom of expression doesn't matter if a family doesn't

00:21:25.440 have the right to walk down the street. But I'm very uncomfortable with that dichotomy, that safety

00:21:30.760 and community are exclusive of freedom of expression and vice versa. But when that's the narrative that's

00:21:38.660 being put forward, how do you break through? And how do you say, yes, I want to condemn bigotry and

00:21:44.140 condemn hatred, but no, free speech abridgments and infringements are not the way to do that?

00:21:49.960 That's exactly what we have to say. Andrew, you know that I come from Pakistan. I've seen

00:21:54.620 myself what happens when free speech is stifled, when freedom of expression is stifled. And once it

00:22:02.200 is done, you can never go back to being the same again. And I don't want to see this happening in

00:22:06.920 Canada. You know, I am quite open to the idea that someone wants to criticize me, wants to criticize

00:22:12.720 my faith. That is okay. Everyone has a right to do that. But this stifling of free speech is going to

00:22:18.740 create more problems. I am fearful of what the aftermath of this tragedy is going to be in terms

00:22:25.720 of misuse of the situation, in terms of people politicizing it instead of just having compassion.

00:22:34.080 All that family needs right now is compassion. They don't need it to be politicized. But of course,

00:22:40.980 it is. We have elections coming up. Let's not forget. So every politician has a vested interest

00:22:47.440 in promoting their agenda to get votes. But that's not the way I feel this should happen. There has to

00:22:54.400 be a human element. There has to be a sensible, reasonable, logical element that says exactly as

00:23:00.140 you said, that, you know, we must speak out against any kind of racism, xenophobia, bigotry. But we

00:23:07.060 should have the free speech available to us. I mean, this is what immigrants like me came to Canada for.

00:23:12.140 And it's very sad to see it go down the deep, dark hole.

00:23:16.560 Well, that's a tremendously important point. And I do not at all want to put thoughts and words and

00:23:23.140 attribute them to the AFSAL family, who I never met. But a lot of people who have come to this

00:23:28.180 country have come here because they value what it is that Canada is. And that is not just a country that

00:23:34.060 has legal protections for free speech, but also a country that's that's by and large tolerant. And

00:23:39.340 I get very uncomfortable when events that are incredibly rare are used to in a way that

00:23:45.980 extrapolates them to speak for Canada. And that's also been what's happened even at a local level in

00:23:51.460 my community. People have said that, oh, well, no surprise this happened in London. It's well, 0.73

00:23:55.340 the fact that this event is so significant is proof that it's rare and proof that it doesn't speak for

00:24:00.920 this country. Of course. And it doesn't speak for all Canadians. I find it very troubling when,

00:24:06.320 you know, all Canadians are tired with the same brush of racism, that there is systemic racism.

00:24:11.140 No, there's not. I've lived here, you know, for 30 years. My children have grown up here.

00:24:16.680 And one anchor even asked me, you know, are you afraid to walk this street? And I said,

00:24:20.420 you must be joking. You know, this is so naive and illogical to think that all Canadians are racist.

00:24:27.540 There are bad evil elements in every society. You know, I know as a Muslim that I don't like 1.00

00:24:32.620 everyone to tar the terrorist brush to all Muslims. I mean, we are very conscious of that. So we don't

00:24:37.820 do that. We shouldn't be doing this. This is not all Canadians. In fact, if anything, Canadians have 0.99

00:24:43.280 shown how compassionate they are, regardless of ethnicity, religion, caste, creed, colour, they have

00:24:49.980 come together. They have shown their solidarity. They have shown their compassion. I have received

00:24:55.400 personally so many emails from people who I hadn't seen for 20 years, just saying, we are sorry that

00:25:01.520 this happened in your community. And, you know, I come back to saying that, yes, this has happened

00:25:06.380 and it's terrible. It's a human tragedy. You know, this is not because it is what happened to just

00:25:12.580 people in my faith. I would do the same for anyone in Canada if this happened. And so we must remember

00:25:19.240 to come together as one community, as one people without divisiveness. And I wish our politicians

00:25:25.300 would stop dividing us, us and them. That's not what it's about. It's all of us together in this.

00:25:31.980 And we have to fight the hate.

00:25:34.780 Very well said. And I think incredible words to end on. Raheel Raza, President of the Council for

00:25:40.200 Muslims Facing Tomorrow. Raheel, thank you so much for your insight and your kindness on this. I know 1.00

00:25:45.200 you've always been a tremendous advocate for your community and for the country. And I think we're

00:25:49.680 very grateful to have your voice on this and in general. So thank you. Thank you, Andrew. Have a

00:25:54.420 great day. That was Raheel Raza. Always a pleasure to speak with her. She has such a tremendous ability

00:26:01.220 to cut through a lot of the unhealthy parts of discussions and get to the meat of them and get

00:26:07.260 to the truth of them. And I meant what I said. We are all the better off having her voice on these

00:26:12.420 and other issues. We've got to take a quick break. We'll be back with more of The Andrew Lawton Show

00:26:16.520 up next. Stay tuned. You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:26:27.000 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show. We've been talking a lot about the tearing down of statues,

00:26:32.880 the ripping down of names from myriad buildings, from schools to public edifices of a variety of

00:26:39.500 types. And now we have, of course, what's been shaping up to be one of the battlegrounds for

00:26:44.600 this, which is Ryerson University. Not only did a statue of the university's namesake, Egerton Ryerson

00:26:50.540 come down last week, but there are even, as we discussed in a previous show, pushes to change the

00:26:55.760 university's name itself. Not just the name of the school newspapers, but basically to make it as

00:27:01.060 though this guy never had anything to do with this school. Well, this didn't sit well with the

00:27:06.520 Ryerson Conservative Club, which you may think is a campus club of the federal or provincial

00:27:11.880 conservative parties. And you would have been right up until a certain point. And we'll talk about

00:27:15.900 why that is now. But I want to welcome to the show Harrison Faulkner, who is the president

00:27:19.820 of the Ryerson Conservatives. Harrison, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on today.

00:27:24.640 Thank you very much for having me, Andrew.

00:27:26.480 So the Ryerson Conservatives, I want to put this up here, put out a fantastic statement about this,

00:27:31.380 basically saying, give us the statue. So the university might not want it, the activists might

00:27:37.560 not want it. You're saying give it to us. And you've said here that the Conservative Club at Ryerson

00:27:42.520 has been really on the front lines of trying to defend Egerton Ryerson's name and reputation. This isn't

00:27:49.120 normally what a political club on campus would do, but you've had to fill that void, it sounds like.

00:27:54.180 Yeah, you're exactly right. For us, we just like to think of ourselves as regular university students.

00:28:01.720 We don't we don't we don't expect that the responsibility to defend our history, to defend

00:28:09.140 the facts of this country. We weren't expecting that to fall on our shoulders. And we were expecting

00:28:15.340 that the university and the provincial government and any stakeholders involved in the process that

00:28:20.560 carry a little bit more influence than than us would step in, would would would basically say

00:28:26.920 these people are wrong. These this mob is not is not historically accurate at all. And unfortunately,

00:28:35.440 that has not been the case. I think a lot of people, politicians, especially on the Conservative

00:28:40.900 side, are afraid to engage in this particular battle because of what happened in Kamloops and because of

00:28:48.480 the political the political danger, the perceived danger that could come for from from someone who

00:28:56.580 is just trying to defend a good man, someone who had great intentions, who is not what the left are

00:29:03.740 portraying him to be. And really, that that that hasn't happened. But we're with a conservative club

00:29:10.300 at Ryerson. And part of that is to conserve the identity of our university to advance conservatism on

00:29:16.280 our campus. And we really wouldn't be much of a conservative club at Ryerson if we weren't going

00:29:21.620 to defend Egerton, if we weren't going to stand up to the the criminal behavior that took place on

00:29:27.560 Sunday. So that's really where where we're at right now with this. And yeah, as you mentioned,

00:29:32.420 we we have been a little left behind, left to fight this battle on our own. I want to get to how you

00:29:38.480 have been treated within the conservative apparatus in a moment. But I want to drill down first into a

00:29:43.920 comment you made about defending a good man. So you're not taking the position that, yeah, you

00:29:49.120 know what, he might have done some things that weren't great. But it was the time it was the

00:29:52.600 context. You're saying that what he stands accused of, which is being a so called architect of the

00:29:58.660 residential schools that have become, I think, very rightfully criticized in history, you're saying

00:30:02.620 that that really doesn't describe him all that accurately. Well, of course, and before I get into it,

00:30:08.160 our defense of Egerton Ryerson has, of course, by the left been taken as some sort of apology for

00:30:15.220 the residential school system. And that's just not the case. What we are trying to say is that

00:30:21.860 Egerton Ryerson, one, is not responsible for what happened in Kamloops and at that particular

00:30:27.200 residential school. And we're also saying this line that has been parroted around by mainstream press,

00:30:33.440 by left wing politicians in this country, the architect of residential schools. That's just

00:30:39.580 not the case. Egerton Ryerson is being accused as the architect or the mastermind of the residential

00:30:46.020 school system because of a private letter he wrote to George Varden, who was the, I believe,

00:30:51.820 the superintendent of education at the time. And Egerton Ryerson laid out what his beliefs were in the

00:30:57.460 sense that he believed at the time indigenous children should learn agriculture so that they can

00:31:03.340 use the land that they have to make a good living off of it. He never advocated for forced child

00:31:10.680 separation. He never advocated for any of the abuses that have since come out about the residential

00:31:16.500 school system. And the Ryerson conservatives believe that Egerton Ryerson not only has been chosen as the

00:31:22.620 fall guy for the residential school system in today's era. We believe that the private letter

00:31:28.160 Egerton Ryerson wrote to George Varden was used by people who knew they were doing something wrong

00:31:33.980 in the late 1800s and used Egerton Ryerson, a man who was about to die, as the person, as the architect

00:31:42.580 of this system because they knew what they were doing was wrong. And if you do any research at all

00:31:47.340 about Egerton, you will know that that is the case, that Egerton Ryerson was an abolitionist.

00:31:52.620 He fought for education for black Canadians before anyone was even thinking about that. He was well

00:31:57.900 ahead of his time. And further, he was a lifelong friend of the Mississauga of the Credit chief,

00:32:06.300 and he learned Ojibwe so that he could understand these people better. And that is something that

00:32:10.600 understandably so for the left is never brought up in their criticisms of Egerton. But it would be

00:32:15.480 it would be fair for for anyone else other than just the Ryerson conservatives to put this put this

00:32:22.920 information into the into the public conversation to help us in this in this basically this battle

00:32:29.280 against historical illiteracy. And you've had to, of course, battle against the school and against the

00:32:35.040 mainstream media narrative on this. You've also found yourself in a bit of a battle with the party that

00:32:40.540 your club historically has been aligned with or parties rather, I should say the federal conservatives

00:32:45.480 and the provincial conservatives. And I just want to give people a bit of context here because

00:32:49.760 last year, this school year, but last year, Aaron O'Toole had famously come and done a little bit of a

00:32:57.040 zoom chat with your club. And he talked in a very frank manner about cancel culture and standing up for

00:33:03.560 historic figures. And then the mainstream media caught wind of this. And you know, Aaron O'Toole did,

00:33:08.500 as you've pointed out in your statement, what so many conservative politicians do, which is backtrack,

00:33:13.380 apologize, and not really win the support of any of the critics in the process. But where did things

00:33:19.380 go off the rails after that point between you and Aaron O'Toole and also for that matter, the Ontario

00:33:25.820 PCs and Doug Ford? Well, well, first of all, the Ryerson conservatives have been around for for many

00:33:31.840 years. And our affiliation with both parties has been really, really strong. And at the end of the day,

00:33:37.180 although we may disagree with the party, our members are members of both both of these parties,

00:33:42.060 when we grow our club, we are growing the membership of both the parties. And so there

00:33:46.160 is an understanding there and a respect there. But as you mentioned, Aaron O'Toole did speak to our

00:33:53.480 club, we had a fantastic conversation with him in September. And we asked him about what we can do

00:33:59.900 as Ryerson conservatives to defend Egerton Ryerson's legacy and to push back against really these radicals

00:34:06.380 and these criminals. And he gave us a great answer, one that we wanted to publicize to show that we

00:34:14.480 have the support and the backing of our leaders. And of course, the press, after a few months,

00:34:21.400 caught wind of this video, and then tried to make Aaron O'Toole out to be this apologist for

00:34:27.760 residential schools. And, you know, under the heat of the moment, I can understand why

00:34:31.900 someone would want to apologize. But if you do, as we've said before, if you do any research into

00:34:36.720 Egerton Ryerson, there's nothing to apologize for, for what Aaron O'Toole said. Egerton Ryerson

00:34:41.480 is not deserving of this level of criticism and this level of vitriol. What we take issue with

00:34:49.240 is that when we do this, when we make these efforts as a conservative club, trying to conserve

00:34:55.960 the identity of not just our university, but our country and our province, we expect that the

00:35:02.540 elected conservatives will also be interested in conserving this country, this province and our

00:35:07.620 university. And unfortunately, the tough part is, is that NDP politicians, liberal politicians,

00:35:16.780 they have engaged in this debate, they have entered this conversation. And we have really become

00:35:23.100 the only voice, the only organization that is defending Egerton Ryerson. Our main issue is that

00:35:28.240 we would like some support, we would have liked to, to have the backing of the premier, of the leader of

00:35:35.480 the opposition, and to really feel that that exists. And, and unfortunately, when it comes to this

00:35:39.980 particular moment, we've been left to fight this on our own. That's, I think, a very important point.

00:35:46.100 And a lot of people would say, for the conservative party, this isn't the fight they need to be taking

00:35:51.400 up. This isn't the, the fight that is worth fighting in an election season, potentially, and all of that.

00:35:57.220 And the problem with that is that if you cede the ground on these issues that are seemingly

00:36:01.600 insignificant, eventually you get to the point where no one is left standing. And that's increasingly

00:36:06.600 where we're at now. And, and to bring it back to the statue of Egerton Ryerson, there was a time not

00:36:11.640 even that long ago where the school would be criticizing the vandalism of its property rather

00:36:17.560 than saying, okay, we're not going to put it back up. Well, so, so you're endorsing what the vandals have

00:36:23.320 done. And, and you are right. It's becoming a very lonely battle.

00:36:27.380 Yes, you're, you're exactly right. And this, this conversation wouldn't be right if we didn't

00:36:32.220 accurately call out the university's role in this really embarrassing moment.

00:36:37.140 But, but in fairness, we expect that from universities now. You're talking about the

00:36:41.640 conservative parties or ostensibly conservative parties being absent from this fight too.

00:36:46.620 Yes. And, and, and Ryerson university known for its, uh, it's, it's left-wing stances on public

00:36:53.100 issues. We knew that this would be the case, but the, the difficulty with what happened on Sunday,

00:36:58.640 the day that, the day that these criminals took down the Egerton Ryerson statue that, that stood for

00:37:03.760 132 years, I should add, um, is that the Toronto police knew that this was going to happen ahead

00:37:09.940 of time. It was well publicized. We knew that this was going to happen, or we didn't know that the

00:37:13.960 statue was going to come down, but that there was going to be a large demonstration. The police knew

00:37:18.220 it. They actually tweeted that they would not tolerate vandalism or violence at the statue.

00:37:24.000 And I personally went down to the statue when I heard of the news that Egerton, uh, the Egerton

00:37:28.940 Ryerson statue had fallen. I went down there in my role as president of the Ryerson conservatives and

00:37:34.140 really the, the head of the only group in this fight to see it from my own eyes, to really take

00:37:39.880 in the gravity of this. And I couldn't find a single police officer anywhere on campus. In fact,

00:37:46.880 I looked around where the Ryerson statue was and I couldn't find a, any Ryerson security either. The,

00:37:52.400 the security guards that, uh, all of our members pay for as part of our tuition to Ryerson.

00:37:57.420 So again, it wasn't just an abandonment of, uh, of our supporters that we felt we were left behind

00:38:04.380 by. We were really, uh, left behind and abandoned by the Toronto police and Ryerson security. No one

00:38:10.540 was there to uphold the law. No one was there to actually push back against these, these really

00:38:15.840 embarrassing scenes that have now played out on international news, which make our university look,

00:38:21.280 look like a bit of a mess, uh, more than a bit of a mess, but they, they, they do not make our

00:38:26.780 university look good. And, and that's really a shame. Now I should say, I know I mentioned this 1.00

00:38:31.420 at the beginning, you're saying in the statement here, give us the statue. That is a real offer. You're

00:38:36.700 willing to take this from the university, right? And I just have to ask on top of that, where, where

00:38:40.780 would you put it? I'm guessing most dorms don't have room, although I could be wrong.

00:38:44.700 Yeah. Well, so that, that tagline is, uh, really, we've adopted it since the statute

00:38:50.620 had come down because we're working on information that we've received from the university. I should

00:38:54.860 say that, um, I have spoken with people who work in the university and they, they respect

00:38:59.580 the work that we have done. And they, uh, they, they understand that we are a stakeholder in this

00:39:03.740 process, which we have to, we have to, um, to thank them for. They have told us that the body of the

00:39:09.340 statue is in the possession of the university. Of course, the head is no longer on the statue. Um,

00:39:14.700 and the pedestal that it stood on, um, is I imagine as well in the, uh, in the possession

00:39:20.940 of the university. And that, that line comes from the fact that as you, as you mentioned at the top

00:39:25.580 of the interview, the university doesn't want it. They've said that they're not going to put it up.

00:39:31.020 The police don't want to defend it. The Ontario government hasn't shown any interest in protecting

00:39:37.260 that statue or the history that it stands for. Uh, and as the only group that has publicly put

00:39:42.540 up a defense of the statue, we believe that we should, uh, we should, we should be the ones in

00:39:46.540 possession of the body of the statue. Now where we would put it, um, we're not quite sure as to where,

00:39:51.420 where it would go. I will say that Egerton Ryerson, uh, grew up in, uh, near the town of Simcoe in

00:39:58.940 Southern Ontario. And we have as a group always felt that if the statue were to be moved, the statue

00:40:05.420 should go and go down to Simcoe, Ontario, uh, where it can be properly celebrated and properly

00:40:11.020 venerated, uh, and Egerton Ryerson, where, where really that he is, uh, well-respected in that,

00:40:16.700 in that area. We think the statue should go there, but of course, now that process is not going to

00:40:22.300 work because it is headless and it is without a pedestal. So really what we're advocating for is

00:40:28.460 to give the statue back to people that respect it. Maybe it might not be us, but in, in that statement,

00:40:34.540 give us the statue, we're really talking about people who believe in the facts, believe in the

00:40:39.660 real history of this country, not the narratives that are being spread. And we believe the statue

00:40:44.220 should belong to, to those people. Ryerson Conservatives, President Harrison Faulkner,

00:40:49.580 good to talk to you. Thanks very much for coming on and great work on this.

00:40:52.460 Thank you very much, Andrew. I was, when I was in university, heavily involved in campus politics,

00:40:57.980 so I have a great deal of appreciation to be a conservative on a university campus,

00:41:02.860 certainly a downtown Toronto university campus in 2021 is no doubt an act of courage and an act of

00:41:10.060 rebellion. So, uh, good on Harrison Faulkner and his crew for again, standing up against

00:41:15.260 the malignment of a historic figure. And as we've just heard, whose only real sin

00:41:20.220 was living in an era prior to the current one. So my thanks again to Harrison for coming on and

00:41:25.500 talking about that. We've got to wrap things up for today. My thanks to you all. This is Canada's

00:41:30.540 most irreverent talk show, The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North. Thank you,

00:41:34.220 God bless, and good day to you all. Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:41:38.140 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 10, 2021

The Politics of Grief

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