00:00:00.000Welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.480Coming up, a big picture look at Canada's energy sector and the environmental activists seeking to undermine it.
00:00:20.860The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:24.440Welcome to the Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's most irreverent talk show here on True North.
00:00:33.000As you've noticed, throughout this month we've been doing a bit of a bigger picture look at some of the big issues that we've covered in the past year
00:00:39.780that are certain to rear themselves again in the year ahead.
00:00:43.760And one big one is the energy sector. We've had a lot of instability in this sector on a number of projects.
00:00:50.120We had the report from Alberta about the influence of environmental NGOs on the pipeline process and other energy development projects in Canada.
00:00:59.880And in the year ahead, we have a number of these projects that are still very much relevant and pertinent to Canadians.
00:01:06.500And I thought it would be good to take a bigger picture look at what some of these issues are.
00:01:10.520And also one of the big players in trying to expose and really tell the story of this sector.
00:01:17.580And that is the Canadian Energy News Network, a fantastic resource.
00:01:21.320If you haven't checked it out, you certainly should.
00:01:23.280And definitely subscribe to their newsletter.
00:01:25.420And at the helm of that is Cody Siona, who joins me now.
00:01:28.940Cody, good to talk to you again. Thanks for coming on today.
00:01:31.620Yeah, thanks, Andrew. It's good to be here this morning.
00:01:33.900I don't know what it's like where you are, but it's starting to snow here in Alberta.
00:01:37.220Well, I think that's like a regular occurrence out there, but nevertheless, we survive.
00:01:42.520For those not familiar with it, what is the Canadian Energy News Network?
00:01:46.720So the Canadian Energy News Network is kind of like a rapid response research centre.
00:01:50.740So what we attempt to do is we like to provide counterpoints to some of the attacks on industry.
00:01:56.940We like to provide some research. We have studies, articles, anything you kind of need.
00:02:02.140We have graphics videos to help support kind of our industry's voice.
00:02:07.220One of the big challenges is that that voice just simply isn't being heard in a lot of mainstream media coverage.
00:02:14.500And I know that this is something that might sound like an obvious point to a lot of our listeners,
00:02:19.100but to the general population, I don't know if they necessarily know that.
00:02:22.380And it's really pertinent, I think, when you're talking about the environmental questions,
00:02:27.740the stuff that the energy sector is doing isn't really heard.
00:02:31.360And also a lot of the other two sides of the story sort of thing.
00:05:41.160We can acknowledge that there's, you know, the human population is growing and there's going to be more consumption.
00:05:46.440And we need to find a solution to that.
00:05:48.860And if that's wind or if that's carbon capture or whatever, we need to acknowledge that there's something.
00:05:54.680But we can't jeopardize the benefits of one energy source to only highlight the benefits of another one.
00:06:01.620So let's talk a little bit about the ENGO factor, because I know this was something that came out in that Alberta report,
00:06:10.780which a lot of people kind of mocked the idea of the report, I noticed, when they started doing the investigation.
00:06:16.740They sort of just rolled their eyes and thought that it was just, I don't know, this right-wing fantasy project of some kind.
00:06:22.200But the reality is we are looking at a pretty significant volume of groups that are very well-funded,
00:06:30.460that really just seem to not be interested in creating or finding solutions, but just destabilizing this sector.
00:06:36.680Yeah, it is true. I know there was, you know, there was a lot of heat around the conclusions.
00:06:42.960One of the conclusions was, like, there was foreign funding coming in, but they couldn't really tell how much because of the nature of it.
00:06:49.920You can grant and re-grant and all of a sudden the money goes from one source to, you know, 20 sources.
00:06:55.300So it's actually fairly hard to track it and do an actual forensic accounting, which I know the mandate of the actual report changed a little bit throughout the two years or two or so odd years.
00:07:06.920But they still found $1.28 billion in funding coming in, not necessarily to attack, you know, Alberta oil,
00:07:14.520but there's still quite a large amount of money coming in from foreign sources.
00:07:18.460And that's just the stuff that they could track.
00:07:20.360I mean, they think it's much larger, which, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.
00:07:23.360Now, I could be wrong, but I don't think you are getting $1 billion of funding every year, are you?
00:07:28.800No. If I was getting $1 billion of funding every year, I feel like we'd be a lot more in the mainstream and be able to better effect, advocate for the industry.
00:07:39.620Yeah, you might not be wasting your time talking to me.
00:07:41.720But again, the serious point of that is how do you and people like you who have a fraction of that money go up against that Goliath?
00:07:50.620Um, it's, it's difficult sometimes, you know, there's, there's, there is this perception that advocacy is a little bit siloed.
00:07:58.720But I think now we're starting to break down those silos between the different advocacy organizations,
00:08:03.880because there's, there's hundreds of them, hundreds of groups on our side that are trying to promote positive message about the oil and gas industry
00:08:10.920and that's the necessity of it for Canada and the economy.
00:08:14.960But I think, again, it's just one of those, you know, people hear, oh, you're advocating for the oil and gas industry.
00:08:21.820You must be, you know, XYZ, you know, super heavily funded by them, AstroTurf, you know, any number of accusations.
00:08:28.860I think the environmental means has that weird term, but that angelic idea about them that they're, you know, trying to take or trying to promote what's best for Canada
00:08:43.220when sometimes maybe what's best for their ideology or their, you know, funders.
00:08:48.480Well, that, that's a really important point because I do think that one of the cultural problems here is that in a lot of cases,
00:08:56.140the climate change alarmist position or the environmental activist position has kind of become presented as the neutral position.
00:09:05.220And everything outside of that is radical.
00:09:09.040So, you know, if you think, yeah, you know, oil sands are bad, that's the basic starting point.
00:09:13.260And then when you come in and say, actually, maybe they're not, you're the guy that looks crazy to them.
00:09:55.360But now they're moving it to the point where you can say pipelines will be blown up.
00:09:59.020And people are like, oh, yeah, well, that kind of makes sense.
00:10:01.580I mean, they've been doing all this other stuff, you know, blockades and all that.
00:10:04.720It's not a big jump in their minds that they're going to start bombing pipelines.
00:10:09.100I'm not saying they're going to, but it's legitimizing that language that is kind of shifting everything around, much like they've shifted the goalposts for, you know, emissions and all that and other, you know, technology that the industry is actually trying to implement.
00:10:23.760Yeah, and I spoke a few weeks ago on the show, maybe a couple of months ago with some innovators and entrepreneurs that are doing a lot, most of them in Alberta, I think all of them were in Alberta, that are doing a lot of work to recycle carbon and to try to find ways to make it into something positive, taking it out of the environment, all these things that government should be celebrating.
00:10:48.260But the theme was that the government isn't really interested as much in those solutions.
00:10:53.700The government has taken a very narrow view, which happens to align in a lot of cases with what a lot of these activist ENGOs are pushing.
00:11:02.080Yeah, there's a lot of reflection in that.
00:11:04.460And, you know, I'm hesitant to say that it comes from the environmentalists that are already in the bureaucracy.
00:11:13.460I mean, look at our new environment minister, Stephen Gobo.
00:11:17.860I mean, he founded Equitair, he was Greenpeace.
00:11:21.860You know, there's a lot more, I guess, communication on that front between the previous higher-ups and the environmental movement and the government.
00:11:34.180I'm not saying that's officially what it is, but, I mean, it's not hard to see where some of the policy comes from.
00:11:40.280Back in, God, it would have been January or February of this year, I had a piece in the Financial Post about the net zero bill.
00:11:50.700And it was pretty much ripped off right from a, I think it was an environmental defense document and a couple other ENGOs.
00:11:57.480It pretty much reflected the same writing, so I had a piece about that.
00:12:03.620But definitely, they're definitely more willing to listen to that side, I would say, than industry.
00:12:09.980But I think they're starting to kind of get the idea a little bit.
00:12:15.160I mean, Stephen Gilbo is here, or sorry, Minister Gilbo was here last Friday talking with some CEOs.
00:12:21.560I'm not sure how it went, but I think if they're not thinking about it, they're thinking about the idea of it, which could be bad or good.
00:12:31.820Yeah, and when we talked earlier about the mainstreaming of, you know, what are ostensibly radical propositions,
00:12:37.360I have to mention, because I didn't get a chance to cover it when it happened, this thing.
00:12:41.120And you wrote about it, I think I actually might have learned about it from you.
00:12:43.140The Alberta NDP Youth Association had adopted a motion, and I just want to make sure I get it right here,
00:12:50.120supporting blockades of coastal gas link.
00:12:52.960And they said there's no Indigenous consent, which in and of itself isn't true.
00:12:57.100But this is, again, you know, you could look at it and say, oh, well, you know,
00:12:59.940youth association for a political party, who cares?
00:13:02.700But the NDP is the most viable alternative to the UCP in Alberta.
00:13:07.480So you've got within the Alberta NDP a sentiment that thinks, yeah, blockading oil and gas is fine.
00:14:48.600So it's a it's a lot of it's a lot of repeating messages, a lot of amplification, a lot of getting other groups like Canadian Energy News Network
00:14:57.920or whoever that are in the pro resource, pro oil and gas kind of advocacy space to really keep hitting home and get boots on the ground
00:15:05.580because you can you can lead a horse to water, but you can't necessarily get it to drink it.
00:15:10.280Yeah, and you're right. And I mean, a lot of the time people tend to and this is, I realize, a political statement,
00:15:19.220but people tend to put a lot of emphasis on who's in power.
00:15:22.780And I'm not as convinced that that's as relevant here.
00:15:25.800I mean, sure, we can talk about the federal government and its attack on the oil and gas sector.
00:15:30.740But, you know, perhaps there could be a more oil and gas friendly federal government.
00:15:34.080And then the provincial government in Alberta is not in alignment and whatever.
00:15:37.380I mean, my general approach to this is that the industry has to exist no matter what.
00:15:41.880And I know it, generally speaking, does have to adapt and does adapt quite effectively.
00:15:46.940But you have to find a way to work to swim upstream, basically, because that's the only option.
00:15:53.840Yeah. And I mean, we like to we like to say that, you know, the people affect the policy and we do like that's that's the point of lobbying and advocacy.
00:16:02.500You get inside, you know, MPs, MLAs, ears and you tell them about your issues.
00:16:21.800There's no way we're going to, you know, be targeted and there's no way we're going to we're going to, you know, get, you know, cut off by the government.
00:16:29.060There's no way they're not going to, like, support, you know, the natural resource industry.
00:16:32.720But yeah, well, there was a bit I don't know if naivete is the right word, but perhaps misplaced optimism.
00:16:40.640And again, that obviously goes to you got to, you know, you got to deal with the government that you have at hand, whether it's pro resource or maybe not as pro resource as maybe some of the industry would like it to be.
00:17:16.880And that's, you know, it's a big issue because as much as, you know, it could be a communication thing, which the industry has been trying to work on communication for three years.
00:17:25.500Because it really does come down to the brass tacks of also lobbying, too, and getting not just civil society on board, but, you know, officials on board, too, the bureaucracy on board for the ideas of, you know, carbon capture or, you know, carbon recycling and stuff like that.
00:17:41.020So looking into 2022, would you say you're optimistic, pessimistic, or still oscillating between the two, perhaps?
00:17:48.660I'd say I'm pretty optimistic, actually.
00:17:50.700I think the industry is starting to see, you know, a turnaround a little bit.
00:17:54.840I think more and more people are starting to realize that, you know, it's necessary and we can't just, you know, get rid of it overnight.
00:18:01.500Because, quite frankly, that would cause quite a bit of issues, not just for Alberta, but for, you know, energy security in general in Canada.
00:18:10.340We just, we don't have the infrastructure set up to immediately go to zero emissions or solar or wind or whatever that may look like in an energy context.
00:18:20.140Um, so I think with, you know, groups like Canadian Energy News Network and groups like Resource Works out in BC, you know, Canada's energy citizens with CAP, and I think once we get those voices a bit more amplified, because I think they are starting to get more amplified, I think people start understanding the importance of the industry.
00:18:41.700Sounds good. Well, the Canadian Energy News Network, always a great place, and I do liberally take some content for the show from there, and make sure to keep up on the newsletter.
00:18:51.540And I would encourage listeners and viewers to do the same. Cody Siona, thanks so much, and Happy New Year to you.
00:18:56.680Yes, thanks, Andrew. Much appreciated.
00:18:58.460That was Cody Siona of the Canadian Energy News Network. Like I said, a bigger picture look at some of the major themes and challenges in the energy sector.
00:19:08.720And I know we often use, just as a general thing, I should mention this, we often use Alberta and oil and gas in a synonymous fashion, which isn't entirely true.
00:19:19.500And a lot of the people in British Columbia, for example, who are so hellbent on destroying the oil and gas sector, forget how pivotal oil and gas is in BC to the BC economy, although it tends to be Vancouver activists, and Vancouver is not where a lot of the oil and gas workers are.
00:19:36.760But Saskatchewan, same sort of thing, a very resource-rich province. So it isn't just Alberta.
00:19:40.940And the one point, I think, broadly, is that energy prosperity in Canada results in prosperity Canada-wide.
00:19:48.760And that's why pipelines are national projects, because they benefit everyone in getting access to Canadian energy and reducing dependence on foreign oil.
00:19:59.160So I do think it's important to talk about these issues, and we'll certainly continue to in the year ahead.
00:20:03.760My thanks to Cody and also to all of you for tuning in.
00:20:07.420This is our last show of the year. We will be back next week with brand new, fresh 2022 content for The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:20:15.060Hope you had a great time with our shows in 2021. Looking forward to seeing you next time.
00:20:20.240Thank you, God bless, and Happy New Year.
00:20:22.660Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.