Juno News - The Vancouver Overpopulation Billboard Controversy

00:00:00.000 Hi, everyone. Today, I am interviewing Dave Gardner, the Executive Director of World Population

00:00:11.200 Balance, a U.S. nonprofit that wants to stop overpopulation and slash birth rates all across

00:00:17.680 the world. On September 21st, Gardner's organization launched a One Planet, One Child

00:00:24.320 billboard campaign in Vancouver, BC. According to the campaign website, the One Planet, One Child

00:00:31.040 billboard campaign alerts people to the overpopulation crisis and celebrates the choice

00:00:36.160 to have a small family. Small families are helping to create a healthy planet, better lives, and a

00:00:41.440 promising future. Some of the messages on the billboards in Vancouver read, conservation begins

00:00:48.480 at conception. Traffic congestion begins at conception. And the most loving gift you can

00:00:54.800 give your first child is to not have another. I'm all for controversy, and I think it's pretty cool

00:01:00.240 how much conversation your billboards in Vancouver have stirred up. So if that was one of your goals,

00:01:06.320 then I think you have certainly achieved it. So thank you, Dave, for joining me in this interview

00:01:11.200 today. Well, thanks for having me. We definitely wanted to get some attention, and it's too bad

00:01:18.160 that controversy might be necessary to do that. I'd like to set the record straight on a couple

00:01:22.400 things, just minor adjustments to things that you said in your introduction. One is, I wouldn't say

00:01:28.000 that we want to slash birth rates around the world. What we want to do, women are cutting birth rates 1.00

00:01:34.480 around the world, and we want to celebrate that and let everyone know that there's just no reason to

00:01:39.200 be alarmed about that. That is good news on an overpopulated planet. And I want to mention that

00:01:45.360 one of the ads that you quoted about the most loving gift, we actually are no longer running

00:01:51.360 that ad. We'll get into that. Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell us a bit about your background and how you got

00:01:58.640 involved in issues related to overpopulation? Sure, I'll try to give you a quick version of a real

00:02:04.400 long story. A lifelong professional filmmaker who gave up working for Fortune 500 companies creating

00:02:14.320 propaganda to do a documentary about an issue that had just gotten my attention, really right around

00:02:21.920 2000, and that was that we were in the process of outgrowing the planet. For a lot of my adult life,

00:02:28.000 I hadn't been paying attention, even though back in 1968, I read Paul Ehrlich's famous book,

00:02:35.280 The Population Bomb, and I myself got a vasectomy shortly after my second child was born because 0.96

00:02:41.840 I wanted to do my part to make sure that we didn't overpopulate the planet. So I just kind of

00:02:47.600 watched what we were doing in my own community, that we were addicted to growth, we were pursuing

00:02:53.680 population growth, and we thought that was a metric for success and a source of prosperity. And I,

00:02:59.520 once I started researching that, I discovered soon that that's a regional, a provincial,

00:03:04.960 a national obsession, and it's really based on a myth.

00:03:08.720 So can you tell us about the Vancouver billboard campaign? How many ads were placed and how long are

00:03:17.760 they up for? Because we're doing digital ads where we can run a different ad every minute

00:03:26.560 if we want, and we can run different ads this week and change out the whole set of ads the next week, we

00:03:32.080 really decided to come up with a pretty bevy of ads. So we had over 30 messages to start with, and we

00:03:38.960 thought that was valuable because overpopulation really touches so many aspects of our life.

00:03:46.960 And so we have, we've got ads about climate change, ads about traffic congestion, ads about resource

00:03:55.040 limitations, you name it. And are you doing like a month-long run kind of thing? Yeah, yep. Yeah,

00:04:03.040 right now the campaign's scheduled to end at midnight on the 18th of October. We may decide to extend it,

00:04:10.640 or we may move to another location, or we may just take a rest, just depending on how things develop.

00:04:17.920 So World Population Balance is an American organization. According to your website,

00:04:22.640 you are run out of Minnesota. So why Vancouver, BC of all places?

00:04:28.560 Well, I'll give you two answers to that. One is we are based in the US, but we really consider

00:04:33.520 overpopulation a global issue. So we are communicating on a global stage. We have allies

00:04:40.800 around the world. We have activists and followers all around the world. We are in constant communication

00:04:48.560 with, we're supporting sustainable population activists in many nations. So we don't really

00:04:55.360 feel like our outreach should be limited to the United States. We're smart enough to know that

00:05:01.360 we ought to probably limit our outreach to cultures that we understand. And then the other thing is that

00:05:08.560 the Billboard campaign, we did an initial trial run with a month in Minnesota and Colorado,

00:05:15.680 and we crowdfunded that. And the crowdfunding campaign continues. And we've invited people to

00:05:22.160 bring a billboard or a billboard campaign to your community so people can actually organize their own

00:05:29.040 fundraiser and get people in their community together to raise the money. And we'll be glad to

00:05:34.720 try to put together a campaign wherever there's interest. So we were really invited into Vancouver. It

00:05:40.400 wasn't something that we decided on our own. And so out of all the billboard campaigns you've done,

00:05:47.920 has Vancouver been the most controversial, where you've received the most, you know, heated response?

00:05:53.600 Without a doubt. And there are two reasons, I think. One, it's the first time that we have the resources to do

00:06:00.640 a really big splash. We're on a lot of billboards, seven different really large format digital billboards

00:06:08.960 and 10 different transit stop digital displays. That's a lot. We also did a pretty good job of

00:06:15.760 making sure that the media got a hint about what we were doing. I don't know whether they probably would

00:06:21.120 have discovered it anyway, but we kind of gave it a little bit of a boost and that kicked off the

00:06:26.160 controversy. And then actually the third reason would be we decided we should try to be a little

00:06:33.280 bolder. Let's experiment a little. It's a real kind of a needle that we're threading with this because

00:06:42.160 we want to get attention, but we want to invite people into a conversation. We really don't want

00:06:47.920 to push people away. We don't want to put people off. So it's challenging to come up with good ads that

00:06:54.000 make people stop and take note and maybe learn something or maybe are really inspired, motivated

00:07:00.080 out of curiosity to go to oneplanetonechild.org and see what this is about. But we really,

00:07:06.000 we didn't really want to inspire anybody to hate us or fear what we were talking about.

00:07:14.480 So in Canada, our total fertility rate is 1.47. It is at an all time low. And for reference,

00:07:22.000 the total fertility rate was 3.94 in 1959. And of course, the replacement rate is 2.1.

00:07:30.080 So a lot of the criticism you received was that these ads should be in Africa or Asia,

00:07:36.320 where fertility rates are much higher. You know, Nigeria, 5.46 is the total fertility rate, Pakistan,

00:07:42.880 3.5. So how do you respond to that?

00:07:46.480 We anticipated that we would get some of that. And we were glad to get that because

00:07:53.840 the subject of overpopulation has been brushed under the rug for a long time. People have been afraid

00:07:58.720 to have open conversations about it, mostly because, you know, there have been some really poor attempts

00:08:06.160 to do something about it in the past that were either racially motivated in some cases, or

00:08:12.160 there might have been a lot of ignorance that were targeted at certain populations. There were mistakes

00:08:18.320 that were made. Okay. And so there's fear that if you're proposing that we address this issue,

00:08:25.520 that you might be proposing something ugly. Well, how are we going to find out? How are we going to make

00:08:31.360 sure that we don't make the mistakes of the past? And how are we going to find out that there are really

00:08:35.360 beautiful solutions to this crisis? We find out by having open public conversation. So in that,

00:08:45.600 so the conversation we're starting, we figured, okay, we're going to be hit with some of these

00:08:50.240 ideas that are not productive. And that's probably the most common one is, wow, man, you're running these

00:08:56.640 ads in the wrong place. It needs to be run in Sub-Saharan Africa or Asia, these places where the birth rate 0.94

00:09:02.320 is so much higher. And so this is an opportunity for us to educate people a little bit. And so our

00:09:10.000 answer to that is, well, first of all, Canada is, has a huge footprint. It is making demands on the

00:09:18.160 planet that are larger than its fair share, if you want to treat the world fairly, where everybody has

00:09:26.320 equal access to the bio-capacity of the planet. We can't have a world where everybody has a footprint

00:09:31.200 of the size of a Canadian or the size of a typical person in the United States. So every person born

00:09:38.160 in the US or Canada or most of the industrialized world, I call it the overdeveloped world because we

00:09:43.840 overachieved and we're over consuming like crazy. A child born in our culture will have a huge impact

00:09:52.160 on the planet, 20 to 60 times the impact of a child born in Chad or Niger, say. So we can't say

00:10:02.160 mission accomplished just because our birth rate is low. We're overpopulated and we still need to

00:10:07.760 contract to a sustainable population level. Two, if we really, you know, there's nothing wrong with

00:10:15.440 wanting to help all the people of the world, uh, get their, get a handle on this issue to empower

00:10:21.840 women and educate women and give them access to family planning. So women around the world can choose 0.97

00:10:29.280 smaller families, which they are inclined to do when they're empowered in that way, eliminate child

00:10:34.320 marriage and all that. There's nothing wrong with trying to help the people of the world, but if you're

00:10:39.200 a rampant overconsumer in the overdeveloped world and you are pushing your agenda in the developing

00:10:49.200 world in the global, global south, you might not be welcome. I mean, you might, it might be smart to

00:10:53.680 start with kind of cleaning up your own backyard. So we, we need to look in the mirror first and say,

00:10:58.560 well, have we got the problem solved here? If we don't, let's make sure we're working really hard to

00:11:03.520 solve the problem here, even as we then offer help where it is welcome. So there was one news article

00:11:12.240 where, um, Daryl Bricker, uh, who is the coauthor of Empty Planet, The Shock of Population Decline,

00:11:19.200 he gave a comment and he said in regards to your organization and your campaign that you should be

00:11:24.960 putting up billboards of congratulations because the public has already achieved what you guys are

00:11:30.000 asking for. Um, they're ahead of you. Um, so why are you urging them to do this and have small

00:11:34.880 families when that's kind of already the way it is? So do you think he has a point?

00:11:41.200 I think he's missing the point in a way, but I, you know, I don't blame him for, for raising that

00:11:45.200 issue. A number of our billboards say they celebrate what we're doing. We have a number of billboards

00:11:51.520 that were up until Tuesday and we're working hard to see if we can get them put back up,

00:11:56.000 where we just have happy one child families or child free families proclaiming, we chose one,

00:12:01.680 or we chose child free. And, um, and if you go to the homepage of oneplanetonechild.org,

00:12:08.160 it's all about celebrating the choices that we're making. We've got this great trend going. For the

00:12:13.680 past 60 years, we have been voluntarily, just naturally choosing to have smaller and smaller

00:12:19.680 families. We've cut the average family size in half. Uh, so we want to congratulate people for

00:12:26.480 doing the right thing. We would like to keep that going. And we feel like it's important to speak up

00:12:31.920 about that because there are growth profiteers, I would call them growth addicted people who, uh,

00:12:39.600 for one reason or another are trying to convince Canadians, just like they're doing in other parts

00:12:43.840 of the world that they need to grow. They need, you better get busy and start breeding us some more

00:12:49.120 taxpayers, some more consumers and some more workers. And that is on an over, on an overpopulated planet.

00:12:56.400 That's just really ill advice. That's the, that's the nice way of putting it. And so we want to have a

00:13:03.680 conversation that reminds everyone, Hey, we're doing the right thing. Keep it up. Bravo. Well done.

00:13:10.400 I was going to ask this a little later, but maybe I'll, I'll inject it now. Um, so in Canada,

00:13:16.400 there is an organization that's backed by many high level bankers, venture capitalists, corporate

00:13:21.840 types, and they want 100 million people in Canada by 2100. Uh, for reference, our current population

00:13:28.000 is about 38 million. Um, that movement is called the century initiative and they want the Canadian 0.66

00:13:33.520 population to increase through domestic baby making, but mostly their emphasis is on higher

00:13:40.000 immigration levels. So what is your take on a movement like the century initiative?

00:13:45.680 Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I, once I found out about the century initiative,

00:13:50.480 I was convinced, wow, we are needed in Canada. We will gladly, uh, start this conversation in

00:13:56.960 Vancouver. Uh, I can't, it's hard to imagine a more dangerous idea. Truthfully, uh, the idea that

00:14:04.960 Canada, Canada should double or almost triple its population in the next 80 years in the interest

00:14:11.040 of prosperity. If Canadians manage to do that, whether they do that by, uh, breeding more taxpayers,

00:14:19.520 consumers, and workers, or by rating other countries of their most talented and ambitious people,

00:14:26.800 either, either method, um, on an overpopulated planet, that's, you have to ask yourself,

00:14:32.720 is that being a good global citizen? Uh, if every country in the world decides to engage in that

00:14:40.480 and in what the century initiative calls a global war for talent, well, they can't all win. It's a

00:14:47.520 crazy war to be waging when we have an overpopulated planet. And if we don't scale back the size of our,

00:14:54.400 both the size of our global economy and the size of the number of consumers, uh, we're, we're basically

00:15:01.360 doomed will be the extinct species in the headlines, uh, if we keep that up. So they're basically trying

00:15:06.560 to do have Canada to do its part to drive humanity into extinction. That's just totally crazy. And they

00:15:13.360 want to do it by Canada wins, other countries lose if, you know, tripling your population is a, is a winning

00:15:22.320 game strategy, but it's all based on this myth that, uh, endless growth is possible and that it's essential for

00:15:30.000 the prosperity. It's not, it's going to destroy lives. It's not going to make beautiful lives.

00:15:37.440 One of your ads, the one that read, the most loving gift you can give your first child is to 0.93

00:15:42.720 not have another featured a black baby. Um, I know your, your campaign featured babies of many and

00:15:49.200 people of, uh, well, and adults of many different ethnicities. Um, but some people started saying your

00:15:57.040 organization is racist for featuring a black baby. So your organization on Twitter said,

00:16:03.760 our ads feature people of many ethnicities. Wouldn't it be racist to include only white people?

00:16:08.880 Please visit the website and check it out thoroughly before passing judgment. So pretty, you know,

00:16:13.360 measured response, but then you actually apologized and stopped running that ad. And what I see here is

00:16:20.880 there's a lot of people right now calling for more diversity in advertising, which I totally support.

00:16:26.400 I think that's great, but it's interesting that once you're talking about overpopulation,

00:16:31.440 suddenly you're being told you can only feature white people. So why did you apologize and retract those

00:16:36.880 ads? Thank you for that question. Uh, we apologized for, uh, the mistake that we made was that we

00:16:45.280 created an ad that could be isolated and used to, uh, to mislead people. And it could just be honestly

00:16:52.640 misconstrued by someone, you know, just because we're, you know, we're in a tinderbox right now,

00:16:56.880 there is just, everybody's on alert, up on edge about racism and rightly so. And we, you know,

00:17:03.200 part of the purpose of our campaign is to eliminate racism because there's no place for racism in the

00:17:09.040 modern sustainable population movement. Uh, so we thought that was a mistake on our part to create an

00:17:14.640 ad that could have been misinterpreted. We needed something that was more certain. And we included,

00:17:21.120 you know, we had that very same ad with, uh, with children of other skin colors. And then we had a

00:17:26.400 number of ads with, with white families and Asian family. Uh, so we had quite a bit of an inclusivity

00:17:33.680 and diversity across the campaign. Uh, we thought we were doing the right thing, but in retrospect,

00:17:40.880 apparently today, if you want to avoid, uh, you know, misinterpretation, and if you want to avoid being

00:17:47.680 piled on by people who are really quick to want to police, uh, against racism, then any inclusivity

00:17:55.360 and diversity you have, it better be on the same ad because, you know, it just takes one picture

00:18:01.120 on Twitter to, uh, you know, to, to get people up in arms. And that was just so unfortunate. So we wanted

00:18:06.880 to apologize for making that, you know, that, uh, mistake in crafting the ad and, you know, we should

00:18:13.520 have been more careful about it. And it combined with the text about, uh, the most loving gift,

00:18:19.840 which, you know, it, it was probably one of the bolder statements we made and it's easy to

00:18:25.040 jump to the conclusion that we're trying to tell you how many children you should have. And we don't

00:18:29.840 want to give that impression. We really want to make sure everyone understands that we just want,

00:18:35.040 we just want to encourage you and empower you to have the information you need and then make an

00:18:39.680 informed decision. It's your decision. You may, you may learn all you need to know about overshoot

00:18:45.600 and the tenuous situation we are on the planet and still decide to have 10 kids. It's your business.

00:18:54.640 On Thursday, October 1st, you put out a press release saying additional ads were removed Tuesday

00:19:01.040 by the outdoor advertising firm whose billboards feature the campaign relenting to public pressure.

00:19:07.200 So I believe the advertising firm in question is out front media. Um, so what happened there?

00:19:12.400 They're, they're taking down your ads. Did you consent to that? How many are they taking down?

00:19:16.800 Why are they doing this? I think that the typical outdoor advertising contract

00:19:23.360 gives the firm the ability to respond to, uh, what gets learned if the public, uh, if there's a public

00:19:32.080 outcry about an ad entitled contractually to reconsider having granted their approval to run the app.

00:19:40.640 Uh, we're doing an advocacy campaign. There were outdoor advertising companies that made it very

00:19:46.560 clear to us. They did not really want to have a conversation with us. Uh, I want to, I applaud out front

00:19:53.360 for being open to having a conversation and trying to find a way to, uh, uh, to allow us to start this conversation.

00:20:00.880 Um, it's, it's, it's unfortunate, you know, I, I, you know, what I have heard and I haven't heard,

00:20:08.560 I haven't heard anything specific from the outdoor advertising company, but I've heard,

00:20:12.560 I've gotten emails from people saying they've called the police. They've called the city of Vancouver.

00:20:16.960 They've called the transit agency. Uh, there are a lot of people who made it their mission in life to

00:20:23.840 silence us to cancel this campaign completely. And, uh, you know, we wanted to invite people

00:20:30.800 into the conversation with some bold thought provoking messages. We didn't want to have a

00:20:38.080 hateful conversation. So, uh, so we made a mistake and I think that created a little bit of, uh, of a

00:20:45.600 extra controversy and firestorm storm. And so I'm not too surprised that we lost a few more of our ads,

00:20:52.000 but we're working with them. And I think we'll, uh, we're challenged to come up with some,

00:20:56.400 some new ideas that are good conversation starters, and we'll make lemonade out of that lemon.

00:21:01.600 So when I first heard about the campaign, I went to your staff page, just because I'd never heard

00:21:07.520 of your organization before. Um, I saw you had a Vancouver billboard coordinator. Um, next time I

00:21:13.920 checked that page, his picture and bio was gone. And then I checked the page yesterday and you said,

00:21:20.080 or the website said, um, that you've been receiving so many threats that you took down all staff

00:21:26.320 information. So what's, what kind of threats and messages have you been getting? Have you been bombarded?

00:21:31.280 Well, we feel like we've been bombarded. I don't know how visible that is, uh, out there in the

00:21:37.280 public. Uh, I think it's probably pretty visible on Twitter. I expect, uh, I'm really brokenhearted.

00:21:43.280 I mean, I am, it has been stressful that it's kind of feels like an organized campaign to make sure

00:21:52.000 that we go away and never want to have a conversation about overpopulation again. It's been

00:21:59.440 surprisingly hateful. And it's, it's weird because you would expect if people are standing up for, uh,

00:22:05.680 for humane, uh, fair, ethical, respectful treatment of people of brown skin or black skin or anybody,

00:22:16.720 if they're standing up for that, you would think that they would be loving, caring people. Well,

00:22:22.560 that the threats have been scary. So we have a couple of young members of our staff who, uh,

00:22:30.640 I think they found it pretty frightening. And I got a text message the other day that I wouldn't show my

00:22:36.080 life because if I showed it to her, she would probably, she would beg me to stop being involved

00:22:44.000 in this issue. That's how absolutely ugly and hateful they are. And it's really sad. 0.97

00:22:48.640 So this is anecdotal, but I feel like when I was first in university, which is around 2012,

00:22:57.120 my first year, overpopulation was something that people talked about as being worth combating.

00:23:04.720 But now, you know, 2020, I'm seeing more people talk about, you know, that's false. This is a eugenicist

00:23:12.000 idea. This is eco-fascist. Like, I feel like we're seeing the rise of the word eco-fascist. Have you

00:23:17.440 noticed this as well? Yes. Yes. And that's another reason we felt like this conversation needed to

00:23:23.280 happen. Uh, we, you know, we condemn eco-fascism, uh, we condemn eugenicism, and there is this great,

00:23:33.360 positive, sustainable population movement out there that rejects all of that. Uh, but it's pretty well

00:23:39.120 unknown. Uh, you know, the, uh, pretty famous filmmaker Michael Moore executive produced a film

00:23:46.480 called Planet of the Humans that, uh, spent about three minutes talking about overpopulation.

00:23:52.160 Pretty smart people spoke about it. And, uh, it was truthful. It wasn't incendiary, but the fact that

00:23:59.200 it was a white filmmaker talking about overpopulation, boom, boom, boom, racism. Uh, it's just, uh, that's

00:24:06.880 really not, not productive at all. Uh, I'd like to think that we would have less racism and less

00:24:13.840 eco-fascism, uh, involved in this issue if we could bring it back out into the daylight, educate people.

00:24:21.360 People need to know, you know what, this is a, uh, there's a beautiful solution to this, and it is

00:24:27.280 just to keep on doing what we've been doing, you know, just to celebrate small family decisions

00:24:34.400 and not listen to the, to the crazy people who think that we need to double or triple

00:24:39.440 our population in order to have prosperity. Um, well, my last question is, um, to you,

00:24:48.160 based on, you know, your, your research and advocacy in this area, what is the ideal world

00:24:53.040 population size? One billion, three billion? Well, let me first tell you that I, uh, you know,

00:24:58.960 I haven't done the calculation myself. We basically turned to science. There's a good list of scientific

00:25:05.360 reports on the website and, uh, the scientists who have done the most serious inquiry into this

00:25:11.840 estimate that one to 2 billion people would be a sustainable population level if we were all content

00:25:19.280 to live maybe at a modest European lifestyle. And that's an important, uh, caveat to put into the

00:25:26.320 answer because, you know, it's, it kind of depends on how high on the hog you want to live.

00:25:32.880 Uh, the, the two factors that have the biggest impact on whether we are

00:25:37.520 crippling the planet's life supporting ecosystems or living in balance with nature are, uh, our level

00:25:43.840 of consumption, how big we're living, the size of our economy, and then how many of us there are who

00:25:48.720 are doing the, the consuming. So if we all wanted to have, uh, three vacation homes and drive big

00:25:55.440 gas guzzling SUVs and fly halfway across the country to a rock concert or a football game

00:26:00.800 every other weekend, then the number would probably have to be a hundred million. Uh,

00:26:06.160 if we were all willing to live, uh, like, uh, monks in a monastery for lack of a better, uh, great metaphor

00:26:14.320 there, uh, we might be able to, uh, live in balance with nature at, uh, eight billion. I don't know. And I

00:26:20.720 don't know if anyone's done that calculation, but the calculation that I know has been done is, you know,

00:26:26.000 modest European lifestyle style, about 2 billion. And if we just got down to about a one child

00:26:32.640 average family for a hundred years, we'd be practically there. And it will only take a hundred

00:26:38.480 years. Don't have to have any legislation, no oppression. No one has to commit suicide.

00:26:45.200 And, uh, and, and, and nobody has to give up, uh, their, uh, what would you say? No one has to

00:26:56.960 live in a teepee. Okay. Uh, most of us aren't living higher on the hog than we really can at, uh,

00:27:04.800 two or three billion. So we all have some work to do in the overdeveloped world. And we, we have a

00:27:09.360 podcast called the overpopulation podcast, where we try really hard to just focus on the subject of

00:27:14.960 overpopulation, but we can't help, but let these other subjects filter in. And one of them is

00:27:20.480 just reducing our population. Isn't the only part of the equation. We have got to really

00:27:26.560 get a handle on this overconsumption and, and live more simply. And the truth is that it's really,

00:27:32.960 it really helps you to reconnect with the joys in life. I try not to drive to meetings anymore. I try to

00:27:38.400 get on my bicycle, uh, use that for transportation as much as possible. And it is, it's so much more fun.

00:27:44.320 It is a joy to ride my bike in the outdoor air. And, uh, one of our staff members, uh, just gave

00:27:50.240 up me. She's giving that a try. She actually went car treat car free a couple of months ago. 0.95

00:27:55.680 So we're not suggesting that we can solve the problem just with one part of the equation.

00:28:02.160 But it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful solution. And we have the chance to deliver

00:28:06.560 a beautiful future to our children. If we can just, uh, you know, have rational conversations

00:28:11.920 about it and overcome the fears that, uh, have been keeping that conversation silence for at least

00:28:18.160 the last 10 years. Well, I'm all with you on, on having rational conversations. I think this will

00:28:25.280 be super, uh, thought provoking for our audience. And thank you again, Dave, for joining me today.

00:28:30.000 Thanks for having me.

00:28:32.480 Thanks for having me.

Juno News - October 06, 2020

The Vancouver Overpopulation Billboard Controversy

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript