Juno News - July 22, 2020


The West Wants Out： Part 1


Episode Stats

Length

41 minutes

Words per Minute

186.90257

Word Count

7,743

Sentence Count

396

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

2


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:13.020 Coming up, a look at Western alienation and the discussion around Alberta independence.
00:00:20.080 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:23.660 Hello and welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:32.860 We're doing things a bit differently this week on the program.
00:00:36.480 We're doing a two-part series on one of the most important discussions facing Confederation in quite some time.
00:00:42.780 And while certainly the media discussion of this has died down a bit with the coronavirus pandemic,
00:00:47.560 the dialogue and discourse and discord about this at a grassroots level is still very much alive and well.
00:00:55.600 And that is Western alienation, the independence and alienation and in many cases resentment that we see in the West,
00:01:03.180 probably no more so than in Alberta.
00:01:06.380 I've spoken about this in the past. I've done a number of interviews about it and frankly a lot of research about it on my own.
00:01:12.100 And despite being an Easterner from Ontario, as many people from Alberta would certainly term me,
00:01:18.420 I'm very aware and very receptive to these concerns.
00:01:22.800 And I have been especially since the federal election in October when so many of these concerns boiled up.
00:01:28.280 On the weekend, I was in Calgary at Freedom Talk, a conference put on twice a year by the Economic Education Association
00:01:35.440 that explores Alberta's place in Canada, or more recently, potentially Alberta's place outside of Canada.
00:01:43.000 I spoke at this conference in November and had the great honour of speaking again this past weekend
00:01:48.720 as they discussed a lot of the lack of movement, even after Alberta's government had the Fair Deal panel,
00:01:55.500 which was supposed to look at how Alberta can secure a fair deal with Ottawa.
00:01:59.760 The standing assumption is that if there is no Fair Deal, there will be no Alberta in Confederation moving forward,
00:02:06.860 which is why there was a lot of disappointment from Albertans, especially Albertan nationalists or Albertan sovereignists,
00:02:13.080 when the report came out and listed recommendations that a lot of people felt were fairly lacklustre.
00:02:18.960 So this is all the backdrop against which this show is set.
00:02:23.440 And we're going to be talking about a lot of different themes, the political and the cultural, this episode and next,
00:02:28.620 but exploring from many different angles the idea of Western independence and what comes next.
00:02:34.380 I want to play a little bit for you of the speech that I gave to give you a sense of my perspective on this.
00:02:40.360 Because after all, the whole point, the whole underpinning of this is that the West is tired of the East telling them how to live.
00:02:46.220 So why should you listen to a guy from the East to talk about it?
00:02:49.300 Well, as I say in the speech, I'm not here to tell you what Alberta should do.
00:02:53.460 I'm here to tell you what the stakes are and why this is a national discussion instead of just an Alberta discussion.
00:02:59.600 Here's the clip.
00:03:00.660 In all honesty, I know that there are a lot of you who would wonder,
00:03:04.300 what do I as an Easterner have to offer the discussion of Alberta independence?
00:03:09.760 I want to just say right out of the gate, I am not here to tell the people of Alberta what their priorities should be
00:03:15.500 or to tell the people of Alberta how they should navigate this discussion, which I concede is an important one.
00:03:21.140 I'm here to offer a bit of perspective on how that discussion fits into the national dialogue
00:03:26.500 and why even for Albertans that are wanting to chart a path of independence, why that national dialogue matters.
00:03:33.860 Whether you like it or not, Alberta independence is a national issue.
00:03:38.820 Alberta is a province in Confederation.
00:03:40.920 Alberta is a province in Canada.
00:03:42.840 And that means that the decisions that take place here for or against independence
00:03:46.560 have very wide-ranging implications that affect the whole of Canada.
00:03:51.580 As a small-c Conservative, I was talking about this over breakfast with some people,
00:03:56.000 if you were to take Alberta out of Confederation, that would mean that there will never be a Conservative elected in Canada again.
00:04:02.240 Now, a lot of you would say, who cares?
00:04:04.440 I understand that, and we'll get to that point later on.
00:04:07.020 But the reason this matters is because to have a path forward for Alberta, to have a fair deal,
00:04:13.340 requires there to be a narrative that has some buy-in from outside of Alberta.
00:04:17.940 And right now, the deck is sack against you.
00:04:20.040 You see this in the political narrative.
00:04:21.940 You see it in the media narrative.
00:04:23.660 Now, I say this as one of a small number, but a growing number, of independent journalists in Canada.
00:04:29.780 The coverage of Alberta independence, for starters, this weekend is non-existent.
00:04:34.780 There's not a single mainstream media reporter here.
00:04:37.900 Rebel was here yesterday.
00:04:39.980 We have a radio host from Calgary here.
00:04:42.600 Where's Rishi?
00:04:43.240 A Punjabi radio host who's here, and I'm very grateful for it.
00:04:46.000 But the mainstream media is absent from this.
00:04:48.340 And I'd say, by and large, has been absent from the dialogue.
00:04:51.760 And we're going to talk about this a little bit this morning,
00:04:54.480 because I'm not entirely sure that people understand why that is.
00:04:59.420 And it's not just about resentment towards Alberta, resentment towards Alberta interests.
00:05:04.500 That does play in a little bit.
00:05:07.620 Here's the problem, though.
00:05:09.340 A lot of the politicians who entertain Western alienation and Western independence
00:05:13.760 are not doing so because they hear the concerns.
00:05:16.580 They're doing so because they want to check the box that said they heard the concerns.
00:05:22.280 A lot of people saw this after the election.
00:05:24.560 I was in Regina, Saskatchewan, the night of the federal election at Andrew Scheer's,
00:05:28.840 what they wanted to be, a victory party.
00:05:30.700 And obviously, it was not a happy evening.
00:05:33.740 I think the only bit of good news that night was that Ralph Goodale had lost his seat.
00:05:37.020 That was, I think, the one thing that people were enjoying.
00:05:40.300 But the rest of it was not just we're sad that our team lost,
00:05:43.560 but people saying, I have no idea what this means for the West.
00:05:48.300 And I get that.
00:05:49.740 Trudeau spoke that week about the importance of hearing the West,
00:05:53.400 of having people in Alberta and Saskatchewan represented,
00:05:56.200 even though there are no Western voices really in federal government right now, in cabinet.
00:06:01.820 And as much as Christia Freeland tries to pretend she's an Albertan at heart,
00:06:05.420 I don't think that matters any more than a line on a birth certificate.
00:06:08.680 And I'm sure everyone in the room would agree.
00:06:10.080 So there is no representation, not just in the federal government,
00:06:14.640 but even many people would argue.
00:06:16.400 And I've heard these concerns this weekend at the provincial government.
00:06:20.180 And the whole point of this is that there are a lot of politicians
00:06:22.960 that want to say they hear the concerns, but aren't actually listening to them truly.
00:06:28.040 Jason Kenney said after the federal election that Albertans feel betrayed.
00:06:33.120 He talked about, quote, the frustration and alienation that was there.
00:06:37.020 That was in October.
00:06:39.480 In February, after the Tech Frontier,
00:06:41.820 actually it was just before the Tech Frontier decision to withdraw was announced,
00:06:47.120 Jason Kenney said that he's warning of Western alienation.
00:06:51.580 How did we go in October from we know Western alienation is a big threat
00:06:55.500 to in February Western alienation might become a bit of a problem?
00:06:59.060 He warned that it would reach a boiling point to which I would say bring it on
00:07:04.700 because it's only at the boiling point that things start to happen.
00:07:08.860 And there are a lot of politicians that talk about Western alienation in abstract terms,
00:07:13.900 that talk about independence in abstract terms.
00:07:15.860 And I mean no disrespect to the people that have put in a lot of the legwork on this.
00:07:19.800 But when you talk about all of these issues,
00:07:22.940 it's important that you understand that checking off the box,
00:07:26.540 producing the report does nothing if there is no follow-up.
00:07:29.920 Well, I hope I disclaimed that I'm not here to tell you what to do.
00:07:38.160 That was certainly where I wanted to start off on that.
00:07:40.280 And I was actually very grateful for all the support that I got,
00:07:43.820 not just after my speech, but even before it,
00:07:46.480 from people that I met at Freedom Talk that are happy with the work we're doing at True North.
00:07:50.480 So thank you very much to all of you.
00:07:52.300 But as I said, I wanted to talk about the political and the cultural aspects of this.
00:07:56.040 And in particular, this episode, I want to talk about the political stakes.
00:08:00.840 And I was able to sit down with Drew Barnes, who's an MLA for Cypress Medicine Hat,
00:08:05.060 and one of the MLAs, who's a United Conservative Party representative,
00:08:08.980 who was actually on the Fair Deal panel.
00:08:11.760 Except unlike many of the people on the panel,
00:08:14.440 in fact, unlike every other person on the panel,
00:08:17.400 Drew Barnes was not satisfied with the report that ended up being published.
00:08:22.360 He was the lone dissenter to this,
00:08:25.160 saying that this is not going far enough to give Albertans what they want.
00:08:30.220 And when this came up, he had said unequivocally to Jason Kenney,
00:08:33.620 his own party's leader, that he is an Alberta patriot.
00:08:37.540 He doesn't support unconditional federalism,
00:08:40.020 which seems to be what the Jason Kenney and Confederation narrative
00:08:44.120 has been pushed towards.
00:08:46.040 The keep Alberta in at all costs narrative.
00:08:48.800 So Drew Barnes says unrepentantly,
00:08:50.540 look, we need to look out for Alberta,
00:08:52.600 we need to look out for Albertans,
00:08:54.140 and we need to look out for Alberta's interests.
00:08:56.780 And he's still in the UCP,
00:08:58.360 but he's very much pushing for a representation
00:09:01.400 of the interests of the great many people,
00:09:04.280 he says, are still wanting out,
00:09:06.040 or at the very least, wanting a better deal.
00:09:08.060 Here's my interview with Drew Barnes.
00:09:09.740 Sitting down with Cypress Medicine Hat MLA,
00:09:12.720 Drew Barnes, also on the Fair Deal panel,
00:09:15.760 but more importantly,
00:09:16.900 the lone dissenting voice to the report put forward by that panel.
00:09:21.120 Drew, it's good to talk to you again.
00:09:22.240 Thank you very much to be here.
00:09:23.580 Nice to see you.
00:09:24.280 So when we spoke last time,
00:09:26.140 we were just getting started on this,
00:09:27.880 and I think there was a lot of optimism,
00:09:29.740 there was a lot of hope,
00:09:31.140 certainly some uncertainty from people.
00:09:32.940 And when you look at what that process became
00:09:35.920 and what we ended up with on the report,
00:09:38.260 why was it so important for you
00:09:40.080 to be the voice on a committee
00:09:41.580 that I think everyone was probably expecting
00:09:43.360 to be unanimously behind it, to say no?
00:09:46.980 Well, thank you for that.
00:09:48.520 I think, first of all,
00:09:50.220 it was impossible for an 80-page written report
00:09:53.540 to fully replicate the powerlessness and the despair
00:09:57.780 that I heard and my panel colleagues heard from Albertans.
00:10:02.480 Tens and tens, hundreds of people that went to the mic
00:10:05.760 and with tears, with powerlessness, with distress
00:10:09.780 that they couldn't find work they were looking for,
00:10:12.500 their children couldn't, their friends couldn't,
00:10:14.460 their communities couldn't,
00:10:15.660 and it had gone on for a long time.
00:10:19.320 Feelings of frustration that it's been 20 years
00:10:21.620 since the original firewall letter was put out there
00:10:25.360 for Alberta to be more autonomous
00:10:27.080 and more in control of our future,
00:10:29.300 and little or almost nothing had happened.
00:10:32.120 So the Fairdale panel report
00:10:33.920 has a lot of good stuff in there.
00:10:35.760 But it didn't go far enough.
00:10:37.700 It didn't implement the timelines and the deadlines
00:10:40.460 that a lot of Albertans were telling me we needed to hear.
00:10:44.180 And maybe especially, Andrew, it didn't have the hammer.
00:10:47.120 It didn't have the consequences for Ottawa.
00:10:49.420 If Ottawa once again, and our Canadian partners once again,
00:10:53.140 ignores the powerlessness, the frustration,
00:10:55.600 the desire to take risks, create jobs,
00:10:57.380 and share our wealth that exists in Alberta,
00:10:59.840 if they ignore that again, there has to be consequences.
00:11:03.160 And hundreds of Albertans told me that consequence
00:11:05.280 has to be a referendum on independence.
00:11:07.260 I know you certainly went into it listening to what people were saying,
00:11:10.720 and you've told me and you've told the audience here at Freedom Talk
00:11:14.200 about what some of those concerns were.
00:11:16.480 Do you think that in many ways the report was already written
00:11:19.480 before the process started?
00:11:20.740 I don't think so, but we've been down this road before.
00:11:27.820 Again, the famous firewall letter, which Stephen Harper was part of,
00:11:31.320 Tom Flanagan, Andy Crooks, you know, Ken Busincall,
00:11:33.940 there was many of them.
00:11:34.960 In this January, it's 20 years where they talked about Alberta
00:11:38.360 being part of Canada, but more autonomous.
00:11:41.580 None of that has happened.
00:11:43.080 Ralph Klein, I think in his last six months,
00:11:44.960 struck an MLA committee to do the Fair Deal panel.
00:11:47.180 They went around the province and did a similar thing to what we did,
00:11:50.120 and their conclusion was don't do any of this.
00:11:52.660 It all costs a bit of money.
00:11:54.200 They totally didn't consider what many Albertans told me
00:11:58.040 they wanted to consider, and that's the leverage
00:12:00.320 that Alberta can gain by reminding our Canadian partners,
00:12:03.760 by reminding Ottawa of the $20 billion to $40 billion annually
00:12:07.020 that we contribute to Confederation, the culture,
00:12:09.460 the quality of life we had to Confederation for all of Canada.
00:12:12.360 So I think it was impossible to take some of that past history
00:12:16.840 and not reflect it somewhat.
00:12:18.960 But it's a different time now.
00:12:20.880 25% of the people that went to the mics,
00:12:23.020 and we had 20 to 30 of these town halls,
00:12:26.520 25% of the people that went to the mics clearly said,
00:12:29.480 Canada's broken, they won't let us move resources,
00:12:32.140 they won't let us free trade,
00:12:33.540 they won't let us live the full potential of life we want.
00:12:36.220 Canada's over, let's just get out.
00:12:37.740 Up to 80% went to the mic and said, Canada's broken,
00:12:43.320 we maybe need to give Canada one more chance,
00:12:46.120 let the people in Quebec and Ontario know how much we're hurting out here,
00:12:49.520 how much we want to work,
00:12:50.660 how badly we need pipelines and resource movement,
00:12:53.340 how much we contribute to the extra $3 billion plus,
00:12:56.740 we contribute annually to CPP,
00:12:58.920 to $20 billion in taxes, more equalization,
00:13:02.520 more transfer payments, all those things.
00:13:04.240 Hoping that politicians and the power brokers will help get us going.
00:13:11.300 We'll see where that goes.
00:13:14.360 You know, many, many people said they wanted a timeline and a deadline.
00:13:17.580 As an example, Premier Kenney's talking about the equalization referendum
00:13:20.860 when the municipal elections are in October of 2021.
00:13:25.260 Very, very common theme at these fair, at these fair, these panel meetings rather,
00:13:32.460 was soon, let's do it soon.
00:13:34.120 There's no guarantee that Ottawa will cooperate and change us.
00:13:37.500 So let's have this equalization referendum right away
00:13:40.080 and let's get to work today.
00:13:42.600 The despair, the powerlessness has really grown.
00:13:45.520 Do you think there's a desire on the part of the people
00:13:48.340 that don't want to entertain this discussion
00:13:50.120 that the anger, the frustration, it will just all subside?
00:13:53.420 Because I think it was a lot more palpable right after the federal election.
00:13:57.000 And I have to wonder if the hope or the design is just that
00:13:59.780 people will eventually just forget about it.
00:14:01.820 And just like the firewall was a flash in the pan and then went away,
00:14:04.960 this will too.
00:14:05.660 And it will just be a cycle we revisit every couple of decades.
00:14:08.780 That would be a mistake.
00:14:10.480 The despair, the frustration, the desire for action is a lot deeper this time.
00:14:15.540 And it's still there.
00:14:16.380 Oh, it is still there.
00:14:17.980 And it's at least 25%.
00:14:19.640 You know, since I came out with a dissenting opinion saying,
00:14:22.820 yes, Canada first.
00:14:24.660 Alberta should be the freest, most prosperous place in the whole world.
00:14:28.020 If that's within Canada, that's great.
00:14:29.540 If that's not within Canada, that's great too.
00:14:32.760 I've gone to public meetings where I've been signaled out,
00:14:35.540 where people have said to me,
00:14:36.640 thank you for saying what we're all thinking.
00:14:38.640 And I'm grateful for that.
00:14:40.020 So those in charge, those in Ottawa, it's, it's, we have a federal government.
00:14:48.200 And it's more than just Dustin Trudeau, although that's a train wreck, of course.
00:14:52.680 We have a federal government that is trying to destroy our competitive advantage,
00:14:57.720 trying to destroy what we built with,
00:15:00.320 with providing environmentally safe oil and gas to the whole world,
00:15:04.260 and to all Canada, for the benefit of all Canadians.
00:15:05.900 And, and, and to me, that's just a situation, that's a situation that will not last.
00:15:11.080 You've got your extremes on this.
00:15:13.180 You're people that keep Canada together at all costs,
00:15:15.820 regardless of the impact on Albertans.
00:15:18.080 And you've got Albertans that they want out no matter what.
00:15:20.300 I mean, they're tired of talking, they're, they're tired of it.
00:15:22.580 So you're not a separatist in the sense, but you're saying, look,
00:15:25.740 I mean, you're not going to close off one of the two paths
00:15:28.420 if one is clearly going to give Alberta that prosperity that you talked about.
00:15:33.040 Yeah, exactly.
00:15:33.640 And, and, and, and nor, you know, nor should we.
00:15:36.260 Why would we?
00:15:38.240 Unqualified loyalty to, to Canada makes no sense.
00:15:42.160 A strong, independent, contributing part of Canada makes total sense
00:15:47.600 if other Canadian provinces and other Canadian jurisdictions are the same.
00:15:51.680 If Alberta can lead the way in the framework for more autonomy for all provinces,
00:15:56.240 more wealth creation, so all of Canada can be richer and freer.
00:16:00.600 Why, that would be good for Canada.
00:16:03.280 If, if Alberta cannot do that, we have to look at all of our options,
00:16:08.080 including, including an independence referendum.
00:16:10.800 You're right.
00:16:11.480 There was about 20% of, of Albertans that went to the mic and said,
00:16:14.360 under no conditions should we even look at separating.
00:16:17.220 We should just take what Canada gives us.
00:16:19.020 Some of them would add, and by the way, we should have a sales tax.
00:16:23.040 Does that mean, does that mean they're huge fans of bigger government?
00:16:25.860 Who knows?
00:16:26.720 But, but Andrew, I'm so glad that like you're here and you're spreading the word for freedom
00:16:30.960 and, and for communities.
00:16:32.160 And I'm so glad that Albertans want to really have this discussion and this time have it
00:16:36.600 with timelines and deadlines.
00:16:38.520 Let's, let's, we're not just an angry mob that, that can be placated by this just going away
00:16:44.280 if, if a conservative gets elected or if we get one pipeline.
00:16:48.300 We, we want the opportunity to be the freest, most prosperous place in the world.
00:16:53.740 Does patriotism not come with a commitment to fix your country when it's broken though,
00:16:58.460 rather than abandoning it?
00:16:59.620 Well, nobody's saying we're abandoning it.
00:17:04.000 Well, I'd say that the separatists are.
00:17:05.660 People that are unbridled, let's get out.
00:17:07.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:10.300 I think a lot of that though is a fixed call, but maybe that fix, if our values are so different
00:17:15.480 that we cannot enhance our, our competitive advantage of environmentally sound carbon,
00:17:21.520 if we can't live the free type of life we want, we have to look at all the options.
00:17:25.460 And I, you know, I, no, I, I think, you know, we're, we're, we're born as free people.
00:17:32.180 We, we owe it to ourselves.
00:17:33.800 We owe it to our friends and our families and our communities to push.
00:17:37.560 And, Andrew, there's so, there's so much frustration and despair out here.
00:17:41.840 When I spoke last night, you know, I, I spoke of the people that haven't worked in three
00:17:45.700 years and are making, or making 65% of what they used to make.
00:17:50.160 My, my constituents I've talked to that have put hundreds of thousands back into their business,
00:17:54.960 sometimes from their RSPs, because they don't want to hurt their employees and their friends
00:17:59.020 and they want to keep things going.
00:18:00.440 Um, people I know that have worked hard and created tons of wealth that when I bump into
00:18:05.420 them, they're saying, Hey, their money and them are out of here.
00:18:07.800 And, and, and that's what we have to, that's why we have to have this discussion.
00:18:11.220 That's why we have to have this talk.
00:18:13.080 Alberta will be better if we're more prosperous and more free.
00:18:16.440 Canada will be better if Alberta is more prosperous and more free.
00:18:20.220 Let's see where it goes.
00:18:21.800 MLA Drew Barnes.
00:18:22.540 Thanks very much.
00:18:23.380 Thank you very much.
00:18:24.060 Greatly appreciate it.
00:18:25.180 Now, of course, Drew Barnes response to this report did not earn him a lot of love from
00:18:29.480 many parts of the province and the country.
00:18:32.260 The NDP was calling for him to be thrown out of caucus.
00:18:35.240 Certainly there was some discontent among the UCP ranks as well for going after this
00:18:39.780 panel, but ultimately it was representing people that feel that their voices were not being heard
00:18:45.000 when Jason Kenney said that independence would not only be bad for Alberta, but was an empty
00:18:49.860 threat as though a lot of the people who feel such anger are not at all going to do anything
00:18:54.940 about it, which is basically a politician's way of saying, you know what?
00:18:58.720 You're not really our concern right now.
00:19:01.360 Now, that being said, it's not to say that there's anything wrong with wanting to keep
00:19:04.660 the country together.
00:19:05.680 Listen, I'm a Canadian patriot.
00:19:07.720 I love this country.
00:19:08.700 I don't want a province that I have a great deal of love and admiration for to get out,
00:19:13.320 but I also don't want them to be continually shafted, which is where we got to the problems
00:19:18.700 that we have now.
00:19:20.260 Now, all of the conservative leadership candidates were invited to the conference.
00:19:24.100 Now, many of them aren't traveling because of pandemic restrictions, but only one did
00:19:28.240 show up, and that was Derek Sloan.
00:19:30.100 Now, I spoke to Derek Sloan on this very show a few months ago.
00:19:33.680 He was there speaking about his vision for the Conservative Party and for Canada, but he
00:19:38.620 also gave his pitch for why he thinks that Alberta is actually the embodiment of the very
00:19:43.920 best traits of Canada and, as such, should be remaining in confederation.
00:19:48.600 This is a small clip from Derek Sloan's speech.
00:19:51.600 I do believe, though, that it was not by accident that Canada became an Asian and escaped, being
00:20:00.740 subsumed into America during its expansionist age.
00:20:04.760 And I believe that the sentiment, which comes from Psalm 72, 8, he shall have dominion also
00:20:14.000 from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth, applies to Canada.
00:20:18.800 I believe we have a global mission to share our values of freedom, of peace, order, and
00:20:26.000 good government.
00:20:27.140 And while I respect and encourage the rights of provinces and peoples to promote and fight
00:20:34.160 strengthlessly for fair treatment and their own rights, I believe that Canada is better
00:20:40.580 together.
00:20:41.580 And I understand that there are studies that disagree, and that's fine.
00:20:45.760 And I won't dwell on that, but I believe that we have a mission to the world to share
00:20:52.000 our values, many of which are shared the strongest in this province.
00:20:58.080 And I believe that Canada is better off with Alberta part better.
00:21:03.040 That was Conservative leadership candidate Derek Sloan, who, just to give you a little bit
00:21:07.240 of a pitch, will be participating in the Independent Press Gallery leadership debate next week that
00:21:12.040 I'll be moderating.
00:21:12.940 And True North will be streaming that, as well as the Independent Press Gallery itself.
00:21:17.680 But the whole point of this is that there are a lot of people now within the established
00:21:21.560 parties that the people the loudest about Alberta independence feel are not hearing them,
00:21:26.940 which is why the UCP, which you may remember was a merger of the Wild Rose and PC Party of
00:21:33.360 Alberta, has basically had a lot of people saying that they don't think it's the vessel
00:21:38.620 to secure that good deal for Alberta.
00:21:41.360 Now, there have been a number of parties that have come up in the wake of this all.
00:21:45.540 And one of them is Wexit Alberta, which merged a couple of weeks ago with the Freedom
00:21:49.800 Conservative Party of Alberta, which was the party founded by former Wild Rose MLA
00:21:55.320 Derek Fildebrandt.
00:21:56.680 And there's also the Wild Rose Independence Party, which is a new political party that has
00:22:01.520 been now the product of this merger of Wexit Alberta and the Freedom Conservative Party.
00:22:07.040 And the interim leader of this new party, of the Wild Rose Independence Party, is actually
00:22:11.980 Paul Hinman, who is the former leader of the Wild Rose Alliance.
00:22:15.940 So I should draw you a diagram on this.
00:22:17.940 But the whole point is that Paul Hinman has been within the established party system.
00:22:22.500 He's been a party leader.
00:22:23.820 He's been an MLA.
00:22:24.700 And he's looking at the landscape right now and saying that Alberta's best interests are
00:22:29.620 not being represented by the status quo.
00:22:32.820 So he's actually come out of political retirement to be the interim leader of this party.
00:22:37.740 And he was at the conference.
00:22:38.880 And I was very grateful to have been able to sit down with him and speak about why he
00:22:42.760 thinks there needs to be a third party, an additional political voice at the table to
00:22:48.220 secure a good deal for Alberta.
00:22:50.180 This is our conversation.
00:22:51.260 I'm sitting down with Paul Hinman, the interim leader of the Wild Rose Independence Party,
00:22:56.280 and I should say the newly interim leader of the Wild Rose Independence Party.
00:23:00.240 Congratulations.
00:23:01.040 And thanks, Paul, for sitting down today.
00:23:02.600 Well, thank you very much.
00:23:03.440 And more important, thank you for the work that you do.
00:23:05.540 Well, I appreciate that very much, especially from politicians who I'm more used to them trying
00:23:10.120 to ban us from covering them than actually sitting down with us.
00:23:12.580 So I appreciate it very much.
00:23:14.720 Let's talk about where the Wild Rose Independence Party fits into the discussions about Western
00:23:20.380 independence right now, because we've seen a whole bunch of different voices pop up.
00:23:24.180 And in the last few weeks, we, of course, had the merger between Wexit, Alberta, and
00:23:28.480 the Freedom Conservative Party, thus becoming your party.
00:23:31.440 Where do you see your party's role as really being in this dialogue?
00:23:35.260 I think the biggest problem right now, people that are looking to the future, and government
00:23:42.060 has such a major impact on our quality of life, what we're allowed to do, what we can't
00:23:46.500 do, and the intrusion of government is just, it's running rampant.
00:23:50.840 And COVID-19 is a perfect example of this, how we have all of a sudden these computer
00:23:55.400 modelings and these cataclysmic activities going on.
00:23:59.360 It's the end of the world, and we've got to shut everything down, and no cost-benefit
00:24:03.860 analysis, no cost-benefit even on the lives, other than that, oh, this one isolated incident
00:24:10.180 expelled everything else from the table, and we don't get to look at it, when in fact,
00:24:15.180 you know, how many people died last year from the flu?
00:24:17.320 How many of this?
00:24:18.240 And government seems to be focusing in more and more on controlling our lives, and people
00:24:24.260 are frustrated and saying, you know, we don't need all of this.
00:24:27.380 You know, we're thinking individuals, we're rational, and we know that there's a flu out
00:24:33.620 there, people can self-isolate at home, seniors, you know, there's steps that we can take, and
00:24:38.540 again, this idea of central government, knowing what's best for everything, when, I loved your
00:24:43.500 analogy here, that, you know, when I say that I'm from London, and the 905, they think I'm
00:24:47.420 from Britain.
00:24:48.040 Yes.
00:24:48.380 I mean, and that's the problem of centralization, that they really think that, you know, that,
00:24:54.680 wow, I'm the center of the universe, and you're from Pluto, and by the way, we don't even
00:24:58.400 know if you're a planet.
00:25:00.720 It's just, it's bizarre how we have a group of individuals that's looking for parental
00:25:07.320 guidance, and then those that are independent, self-reliant, and want structure, rule of law,
00:25:13.260 and order.
00:25:14.360 And the Wild Rose Independence, what it did, and why I stepped in, is because there's
00:25:18.760 nowhere else to go right now.
00:25:21.160 Everything seems to be going towards big centralized government decision-making, and the Wild Rose
00:25:26.280 Independence Party is going in the other direction, that we need to stand up for ourselves, we
00:25:31.080 need to put our house in order.
00:25:32.740 We're not going to be told by Eastern thugs, or whoever, Laurentian elites, that this is
00:25:38.260 the way you need to live your life.
00:25:39.540 And by the way, it's because we're morally superior to you, and you are second-class citizens
00:25:44.600 that just don't know what's best for you.
00:25:46.340 The one thing I found interesting from speaking to you earlier in the conference this weekend
00:25:50.860 is that it's not about independence for the sake of independence, in your view, and it's
00:25:55.020 not about just a reaction to the status quo.
00:25:58.240 You're putting forward a conservative vision that, on its own, I think would stand up as
00:26:02.940 an election platform, but it's coming at a time when those values that you're talking
00:26:07.460 about, of independence, of self-sufficiency, of getting your fiscal house in order, are harder
00:26:12.300 and harder to come by, in politics in general, but even in Alberta, which I think in a lot
00:26:16.000 of cases has long been a place where people on the right have taken for granted that it
00:26:22.780 will always be this way.
00:26:23.840 Yeah.
00:26:24.840 No, it's astounding to me how, and again, I always take the exception to being a politician.
00:26:32.360 I'm an elected representative.
00:26:34.700 Right now I am because I'm an interim leader, I guess I'm politicking.
00:26:39.440 But we really do need to realize who we are and who's controlling us.
00:26:47.060 And Albertans are entrepreneurs that freedom is in their heart and we don't want a government
00:26:52.920 controlling us saying, you know, who we are, how we're going to behave and where we're
00:26:56.840 going to go and when you get to do it.
00:26:59.900 And this is the problem.
00:27:01.220 And so this is a movement about freedom.
00:27:04.780 Independence is very important to Albertans.
00:27:08.140 And we're just not going to take the Laurentian elites' overtones anymore.
00:27:14.200 In my opinion, we're ready to stand up and say, you know what, hey, Mom, hey, Dad, we've
00:27:18.300 been out on our own for 20 years.
00:27:21.000 We have our house paid off.
00:27:22.740 We have all these things.
00:27:24.500 And you can't keep coming in and intruding in our lives and telling us that, you know,
00:27:29.400 you can't do that.
00:27:30.840 We're stepping outside the circle and we're going to do what we need to do to keep our
00:27:34.380 house in order and to provide a future for our children and grandchildren.
00:27:38.780 Because right now I do not see my grandchildren even coming close to the opportunities that
00:27:44.160 I have.
00:27:45.160 It's scary when you actually look out five or ten years and the way things are escalating
00:27:49.400 one or two years.
00:27:51.240 You were previously the leader of the Wildrose Alliance.
00:27:54.120 So you've been at the forefront of these discussions.
00:27:57.300 And we certainly know that the Wildrose Alliance never formed government does that.
00:28:01.140 It then led to a merger that I think people are familiar enough with.
00:28:04.300 We don't need to rehash it.
00:28:05.920 But I guess when you look back at the last decade, because you were elected in 2009, correct?
00:28:10.000 That was the last time, yes.
00:28:11.400 Yeah.
00:28:12.400 So when you were elected the last time in 2009, what do you think has fundamentally changed
00:28:17.660 in Alberta?
00:28:18.660 I mean, certainly the federal government change has made people a lot more frustrated and a
00:28:22.440 lot less optimistic.
00:28:24.320 But do you think there's been a fundamental change in Alberta that's led to reaching the
00:28:28.400 boiling point in these frustrations now?
00:28:30.580 Well, I think the first change was that Albertans were disgusted with a collusion of the right-wing
00:28:36.960 people coming together to say, oh, we're going to do everything great, but by the way, we
00:28:41.140 can't balance the books.
00:28:43.340 And so taxation has gone up, debt has gone up, personal freedoms have been reduced, centralization
00:28:51.000 has increased.
00:28:52.620 And most important, I guess, is that the economy and the change of oil prices in the world and
00:28:58.600 us failing to get access to world markets through tidewater has boxed us in.
00:29:04.560 And the economic pain now has brought in the reality that we can't keep doing this.
00:29:09.340 You know, we're on a hiking trip with all these Laurentian elites and all of a sudden
00:29:15.400 we realize that, you know what, I'm not carrying your tent, I'm not carrying your backpack,
00:29:19.140 I'm certainly not going to carry your water, and I'm not going to cook for you tonight.
00:29:23.900 And we just, we're in a situation now with billions of dollars and a government that's
00:29:28.320 out of control and spending.
00:29:29.560 And all of a sudden has this idea that we need to have corporate subsidies to get the
00:29:34.480 economy going.
00:29:35.480 When, you know, just listening to Michelle Sterling here this morning, the biggest tax we need
00:29:40.400 to get rid of is all of the carbon taxes.
00:29:42.400 You know, the taxes on our fuels, I mean, oil's below $40 a barrel or thereabouts, and we're
00:29:49.040 still paying a dollar a liter.
00:29:50.960 That's hurting Canada.
00:29:51.960 You go down to the States, which is our biggest trading partner and our competitor, and their
00:29:56.560 fuel is substantially cheaper and their cost of living is.
00:29:59.320 And we can't, we can't have this facade of a front saying that we, that we're meeting
00:30:06.080 this Paris Accord, we're trying to cut all this back, when in fact, just on the simple
00:30:10.420 fact in Northern, North America, we have winter, and we have to heat our homes.
00:30:17.680 And don't put us on the same level as someone in California, because they have summer, and
00:30:22.640 they cool their homes, and they have no problem saying that's okay, but to heat your home, we're
00:30:27.040 ruining the climate.
00:30:28.240 Looking from a more strategic perspective, how do you stand out, and how does your party
00:30:34.340 plan to stand out, when it seems like there are so many voices that are trying to claim
00:30:38.240 to be the voice of Alberta independence right now?
00:30:40.520 And I guess certainly you've consolidated a little bit by the merger, but you still have
00:30:43.960 other groups that are trying to claim that they're the true voice on this.
00:30:48.200 And that might be the most difficult thing, but I think that this pure momentum, and again,
00:30:53.900 because I'm going to be on the road going full-time, all of a sudden you've got a foot soldier
00:31:00.000 who's doing the work, going to go out, talk to people, and give them, turn on the light
00:31:04.500 in the room, say, there's hope.
00:31:05.900 Here's another option, because two weeks ago, I didn't know what my options were.
00:31:09.460 What else could I do?
00:31:11.000 You can sit there and complain and have nothing, or is there a place where I can go and work
00:31:16.500 and make a difference?
00:31:18.100 And that's what the Wild Rose Independence Party is.
00:31:20.100 This is an area where we can come together, and government will either see that they need
00:31:24.600 to make these changes now, or in 2023, we will be government, and we will do it.
00:31:30.200 Federally and provincially, a lot of people on the right, and I use the broadest interpretation
00:31:35.760 of that term, have gotten very leery of so-called splitting the vote.
00:31:40.720 And we saw this, of course, leading to the creation of the Conservative Party of Canada.
00:31:44.480 We saw it leading to the creation of the UCP.
00:31:47.080 So do you not think that now that Alberta has had an NDP government, that there's a risk
00:31:52.000 of sabotaging Conservative electability, if you're going to be running essentially against
00:31:58.240 the Conservatives, as well as against the NDP?
00:32:00.880 And that's a fair question, and probably the one that voters often, like Stelmack used that
00:32:06.340 for me in 2008, and basically had the biggest landslide ever, because he said a vote for
00:32:12.340 the Wild Rose is a vote for the Liberals.
00:32:16.240 And that last few days, that panic in there, because the polls were showing Kevin Taft was
00:32:21.920 doing very good, and he might show, might be the next Premier.
00:32:26.680 My counter on that is, is that first of all, they're not Conservatives.
00:32:31.240 Are they balancing the budget?
00:32:32.660 Are they allowing freedom of religion?
00:32:34.800 Are they allowing freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of the press?
00:32:40.160 No.
00:32:41.160 It's all controlled.
00:32:42.160 It's all manipulated.
00:32:43.160 And there's never a wrong time to do the right thing, but there's never the right time to
00:32:49.800 do the wrong thing.
00:32:51.600 And when they fail to, to, to stay with the basic principles of, the proven principles
00:32:59.240 of Conservative living, lifestyle, and constraining the size of government, what choice do people
00:33:07.160 have?
00:33:08.160 And to say that we're going to split the vote?
00:33:09.360 They're the ones that are splitting the vote, in my opinion.
00:33:12.360 Is that important?
00:33:15.280 The structure of our constitution really is comparable to a dam on the river.
00:33:21.920 And there's a lot of power that's backed up when you do that.
00:33:26.520 When you put all that power inside government, and you have no pipelines or nothing to direct
00:33:31.460 it, but they can use it to buy votes from other regions and redirect and buy here from
00:33:36.160 buy there, and we're not on an equal front, we, we really run into the problem of, of,
00:33:42.760 of vote buying and socialism that, as a citizen, we need to realize and reject our votes being
00:33:51.140 bought, just like we reject them giving us opioid or a drug.
00:33:59.060 It's a drug and it's addicting and we shouldn't do it.
00:34:01.860 But the counter to that is accountability.
00:34:05.040 And everyone that I've ever talked to says, oh, we can't have recall because we can't
00:34:08.700 do what we want to do if we get in power.
00:34:11.280 And I argue this endlessly that recall is, is that vaccinee, vaccine against socialism.
00:34:20.820 That if, for example, we even go back in Alberta history when Rachel got, got, you know, Prentice
00:34:25.800 got voted out.
00:34:27.080 And so, oh, Rachel was declared the winner because people said no to Prentice in there.
00:34:32.860 And had we had recall, and I brought recall legislation in, in 2010, which the PCs just
00:34:38.460 laughed at and voted down again.
00:34:40.780 Why do we need that?
00:34:41.780 Well, because we can't trust you.
00:34:44.720 We would have easily, I believe, been able to have recalled 10, 15 of our MLAs and stopped
00:34:50.580 it from a majority government.
00:34:52.100 And so if, in fact, you know, it goes back to the same theory of it's too big to die.
00:34:57.140 I mean, look at our banks, look at the auto industry.
00:35:00.020 When you say something's too big to die, it's too big.
00:35:03.280 You need to control it.
00:35:05.060 And this is the problem in politics is that government is too big and both entities want
00:35:11.120 to get in there and they're out of control.
00:35:13.100 We need recall.
00:35:13.980 We need accountability where we can actually go out.
00:35:16.780 And human nature is such that we don't try to do something we know that we can't do.
00:35:22.400 There are a few people, and I give them my hats off, they go sign petitions, they go to
00:35:26.600 rallies.
00:35:27.600 But does that do anything?
00:35:28.600 Have you ever seen a rally that's changed things for the good?
00:35:32.100 No.
00:35:33.100 Mobocracy.
00:35:34.100 I mean, we can fall apart and have anarchy and deterioration, but you don't see mobocracy
00:35:39.440 coming in and something great coming out of it.
00:35:41.640 There's destruction.
00:35:42.640 There's pillage.
00:35:43.640 There's even murder that occurs on those situations.
00:35:47.760 And so we need accountability in the elected people.
00:35:50.080 And to me, that vaccination is recall.
00:35:53.320 And when you're upset, you say, you know what, he's not doing, she's not doing what
00:35:57.440 they promised, or they're doing things like the carbon tax.
00:36:01.300 You go out and you recall them and you stop them in your tracks.
00:36:03.940 And so government needs to be controlled.
00:36:06.400 The only way it can, in my opinion, is recall.
00:36:09.280 And that actually, when you say, we're going to split the vote, well, if the majority of
00:36:12.720 Albertans want more taxes, if they want more of the thing, then we should be doing that.
00:36:17.940 But we need to have accountability and to be able to stop people.
00:36:21.040 And then people will engage, I believe, and you'll see a more democratic, peaceful, and
00:36:26.120 civil society.
00:36:27.120 You know, when Maxime Bernier failed to win his seat and the People's Party didn't win
00:36:31.700 any seats in the last federal election, he had said that, look, I mean, it took the Green
00:36:35.200 Party 30 years to do something.
00:36:37.000 And the media has always established them as, you know, this real force.
00:36:41.440 When you look at your party and the flashpoint that we're at right now in Alberta and in
00:36:46.400 Canada, do you think that you will be playing a long game or do you think that there's enough
00:36:51.380 of a palpable frustration now that you could make an impact on this electorally and or culturally
00:36:56.780 right out of the gate?
00:36:57.780 Well, first of all, I'm going to say 2023 seems like a long ways away.
00:37:01.640 So when you're talking 30 years, it always comes fast.
00:37:06.540 It really does.
00:37:07.680 But there's people that want out yesterday.
00:37:10.680 And so, like I say, for a lot of people, 2023 is too far away.
00:37:14.220 But really, that's the next day of decision.
00:37:18.960 But so it's a two and a half year hike.
00:37:23.180 We're going to go out there.
00:37:24.360 We're going to build the party.
00:37:26.640 We're going to build something for Albertans to have hope in.
00:37:30.020 And we're going to be accountable to them.
00:37:32.320 We will have recall.
00:37:33.780 And if we put in the Wild Roads Independence Party and they're not happy, they're going
00:37:40.260 to be able to go back and say, you know what, I regret buying that and give me my money.
00:37:46.140 And that won't be just a 10-day return policy.
00:37:48.680 It'll be the four-year term.
00:37:51.240 And no, it's not going to be 20 or 30 years.
00:37:55.820 Like when we look back to 2000, which is actually when I worked very hard to establish the Alberta
00:38:01.680 First Party, which now has come full circle through about four or five different entities.
00:38:07.320 And here I am.
00:38:08.360 I find that very, I don't know, amazing that the Alberta First Party is actually the first
00:38:15.380 registered party that all these registered parties have come through.
00:38:18.540 And it's time to put Alberta first.
00:38:20.600 And back then in 2000, when I kind of first really jumped into politics, I guess, in a
00:38:26.140 hard way, it was about leading by example.
00:38:29.800 We'll first fix our health care.
00:38:31.300 We'll fix our education.
00:38:32.660 We'll fix the size of government.
00:38:34.320 And we'll lead.
00:38:35.140 And the rest of Canada will see, wow, that's the way to do it.
00:38:38.140 And so now it is.
00:38:39.480 It's time to lead by example.
00:38:41.280 We'll do Alberta.
00:38:42.340 We'll first fix our home.
00:38:44.160 And then the rest of Canada can look.
00:38:46.120 But the fact of the matter is, is that we're going to fix our house.
00:38:48.880 We're going to put it in order when it comes to the economy, when it comes to health care
00:38:53.180 and education.
00:38:54.240 We're going to fix all of those things.
00:38:56.520 And if Canada doesn't want us and want us as equal partners, we'll be gone.
00:39:03.300 Paul Hinman, leader of the Wild Rose Independence Party.
00:39:05.840 Thank you so much for the work you're doing and for coming today.
00:39:08.320 Well, thanks very much for being here, Andrew.
00:39:09.900 And keep up your good work.
00:39:11.040 Thank you.
00:39:11.720 Now, whether or not Drew Barnes or Paul Hinman or Derek Sloan, for that matter, are speaking
00:39:16.940 for the majority of Albertans doesn't matter.
00:39:20.020 The whole point here is that they're speaking for a contingent, at least Drew Barnes and Paul
00:39:24.800 Hinman are, that needs to be heard because if it isn't, there are going to be bigger problems
00:39:29.560 for the cultural fabric, not just in Alberta, but also across the country.
00:39:35.320 And to say that if you are a small-c conservative, especially, to say that Alberta could leave
00:39:40.740 the country is disastrous for conservatives.
00:39:43.520 But the problem is, if you make that pitch to an Albertan, they'll say, well, that's
00:39:47.360 not our problem.
00:39:48.180 In fact, that's the climate that we want to exit.
00:39:50.800 So whether there is a huge contingent that wants separation or not, Drew Barnes said it's
00:39:56.760 probably about 20% of the people that he was hearing from at the Fair Deal panel meetings.
00:40:01.860 One-fifth is not a group you want to discount.
00:40:04.120 That's sizable enough that it can't and shouldn't be ignored, especially about something so essential,
00:40:09.340 which is, hey, are we getting a fair deal?
00:40:12.060 And that's the common refrain, fair deal, fair deal, fair deal.
00:40:15.140 And listen, I know that I've spoken at this conference in the past, and when I did, people
00:40:18.940 said, oh, that's the Alberta separatist group.
00:40:21.020 Well, it's not actually about that.
00:40:22.740 It's about people that want the best for their province and are growing warier and warier
00:40:27.380 of whether that can happen under the status quo.
00:40:30.300 If it can, I think there are a ton of people that want to be proven wrong.
00:40:33.700 We've talked about the political side of this.
00:40:36.000 In the next episode, I'm going to speak about the cultural aspects of this, and we're coming
00:40:39.580 up on the 20th anniversary of the infamous firewall letter that really encapsulated Western
00:40:44.760 alienation so well.
00:40:46.460 We'll talk to Tom Flanagan and also a former member of Parliament, Rob Anders, as well as
00:40:51.680 Danny Hozak, the chairman of the organization that has brought this event to the forefront and
00:40:56.980 has had a dialogue there where no mainstream media seems to want to have one.
00:41:01.920 That'll be all on the second part of this Western alienation special here on the Andrew
00:41:06.240 Lawton Show.
00:41:06.940 My thanks to all of you for tuning in and all those who sat down with me and were so hospitable
00:41:11.380 when I was out in Calgary for a couple of days putting this together.
00:41:14.740 We'll talk to you in a couple of days.
00:41:16.220 Thank you.
00:41:16.820 God bless and good day.
00:41:17.920 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:41:20.560 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.