Juno News - The West Wants Out： Part 2

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:13.160 Coming up, we continue our look at Western alienation and Alberta independence, nearly two decades after the famous firewall letter. Where are things and where are they headed?

00:00:25.080 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Welcome back to the Andrew Lawton Show, continuing our series on Western alienation, part two of this two-part series we started earlier in the week.

00:00:41.320 And I'm very grateful to all the people that responded to that episode and had a lot of interesting feedback.

00:00:46.840 One of the big ones that I want to address right out of the gate is people expressing a bit of frustration that I use Western alienation and Alberta independence somewhat interchangeably.

00:00:58.520 And the argument was coming from people from Saskatchewan and even British Columbia and Manitoba that are saying,

00:01:04.440 Whoa, hang on. I mean, I'm upset with Western, with the Western treatment by Canada as well.

00:01:09.520 I'm looking at finding ways that we can get a better deal, and I'm not in Alberta.

00:01:14.500 And I'd say completely fair point. I did try to talk about Western alienation as a more broad concept.

00:01:20.840 But I also think it's fairly safe to say that the hotbed of this sentiment is in Alberta.

00:01:27.120 That's where the conference I was at, the Freedom Talk conference was.

00:01:30.760 That's where a lot of the discussions have been in the provincial government.

00:01:33.660 That's where the fair deal panel is.

00:01:35.440 But no, there is a completely valid point here that it isn't just about Alberta versus Canada.

00:01:41.400 It's Alberta, parts of BC, Saskatchewan, parts of Manitoba against the Canadian treatment of this whole region.

00:01:50.880 And I'm certain that people in Northern BC are not happy getting lumped in with Vancouver, Victoria, and the so-called Lower Mainland.

00:01:58.480 So to the people in Northern BC that see themselves as Albertans at heart, I'm with you.

00:02:02.800 To the people of Saskatchewan that have their own grievances that are very similar to those of Alberta, I'm with you as well.

00:02:08.680 This episode, when I talk about the Western alienation, the Western independence, and Alberta independence,

00:02:15.020 know that I am totally aware of these things, and certainly this is a broader concept.

00:02:20.720 And it's why, to the few people that emailed me and said, well, why are you stoking Western separatism, I respond that I'm not.

00:02:28.440 What I want, and I was unequivocal about this when I spoke at Freedom Talk, I want a Canada that respects all regions of Canada,

00:02:36.700 and a Canada that does this in a way that is not inviting separatism.

00:02:41.920 And that's the problem.

00:02:42.860 I think it's a failure of confederation when provinces are not able to enjoy their own success

00:02:48.560 without having to write checks to the rest of Canada, despite the ingratitude of the rest of Canada.

00:02:54.260 And that's what the equalization formula, as one notable example, has certainly done.

00:03:00.000 So we focused on the political side of this in the first part of the series,

00:03:04.600 and I want to look at some of the cultural aspects of this.

00:03:07.640 What is the discussion really trying to accomplish?

00:03:10.420 What's the backdrop for it?

00:03:11.920 And as such, what is it going to look like moving forward?

00:03:15.660 I want to first share with you my interview with Danny Hozak,

00:03:18.580 the chairman of the Economic Education Association of Alberta,

00:03:22.340 which is the group that hosts Freedom Talk,

00:03:24.460 this conference that I was at doing interviews on the weekend about Western alienation and Western independence,

00:03:31.060 and specifically Alberta independence.

00:03:33.500 And I spoke with Danny about what it is that they're really looking for,

00:03:37.620 what it is that the goal is for him personally, for the people at the conference,

00:03:42.180 and how this fits into the discussion that is going on right now across Alberta.

00:03:47.020 And this is our chat.

00:03:48.540 It's good to talk to you, Danny.

00:03:49.700 Thanks for doing this, for inviting me, and thanks for sitting down today.

00:03:52.700 Thank you.

00:03:53.100 We've enjoyed your presentation.

00:03:55.340 We think it's a great function.

00:03:56.400 It's going well.

00:03:57.000 Thanks for being here.

00:03:57.720 Good.

00:03:57.980 So let's talk about where we are now.

00:03:59.800 I was at your event six months ago and spoke, and spoke to you there.

00:04:03.500 And what would you say has changed in the Alberta independence discussion since November?

00:04:08.600 Well, certainly our hope that the Fair Deal panel would come back with a roadmap to recovery has changed

00:04:20.380 because now they've come back with their recommendation.

00:04:23.800 The panel has reported.

00:04:25.260 The government has made recommendations based on the report.

00:04:28.720 And as I said yesterday, their recommendations were, in our humble opinion, more talk than action.

00:04:33.740 And we were disappointed by that.

00:04:35.160 And that's one of the reasons that we're forging ahead right now is we're saying somebody has to make something happen.

00:04:41.020 We need to get a new deal for Alberta, and we're intent on doing that.

00:04:44.960 And I think the number of people who realize that we need a new deal is growing by the day.

00:04:50.540 When I told a couple of people that I was going to be coming out and speaking and reporting here,

00:04:55.720 I had one person who had said, oh, is that that separatist conference in Alberta?

00:04:59.500 And what's, I think, interesting is that that really isn't the case at all.

00:05:02.720 I mean, certainly there are some people here that I think are very pessimistic on the forecast of what Alberta can do.

00:05:08.740 But you've been fairly clear on this, that you want a good deal for Alberta,

00:05:12.840 whether that's in Confederation or outside of Confederation, stands to be seen.

00:05:17.640 But your hope is still that Alberta can function within the Canadian experience.

00:05:21.740 Is that the case?

00:05:22.380 Absolutely.

00:05:23.540 You know what I mean?

00:05:25.780 You're right.

00:05:26.500 We just want to get a new deal.

00:05:28.740 We want it to fairly reflect everyone's contributions to the country.

00:05:34.160 But we're certainly quite happy to get it within the country.

00:05:37.320 And as, you know, even our speaker's remains pointed out this morning, I mean, all we have

00:05:42.160 to do is take charge of a lot of our, you know, have our own police force, you know, collect

00:05:47.280 our own taxes, have our own pension plan, have our own unemployment program.

00:05:51.600 And I think it will take a lot of the heat and a lot of the anger and resentment out of

00:05:56.220 some of the discussions we're having.

00:05:57.640 And once we've got them, most of us, I think, would be happy to just get back to work living

00:06:02.720 the good life.

00:06:03.900 One of the themes that you've mentioned, and I know other people have mentioned at

00:06:07.880 the conference this weekend, is that we're coming up in January on the 20th anniversary

00:06:12.340 of the firewall letter.

00:06:13.520 And I think that, well, looking back on that, what it shows us is that a lot of these concerns

00:06:18.140 and a lot of the suggestions to fix them are not new.

00:06:21.640 So I guess for you, you've been in Alberta politics for years.

00:06:25.180 Why do you think now is different?

00:06:26.980 I mean, why do you think that the discussion will or should grab hold now in a way that it

00:06:31.320 didn't in 2001?

00:06:32.780 Well, I think it's that old saying, fool me once, shame on you.

00:06:36.760 Fool me twice, shame on me.

00:06:38.120 You know what I mean?

00:06:38.500 And I think there's a growing number of people are realizing, you know, what the heck, this

00:06:42.380 is happening again.

00:06:45.100 This is the second time in many of our lifetimes that an Eastern-led government has destroyed

00:06:49.800 a generation of Alberta's accumulated wealth, the hopes and dreams of families and communities

00:06:55.380 and businesses.

00:06:56.080 This is, and enough is enough, to put it quite frankly.

00:06:59.560 And so we want to make something happen.

00:07:01.600 I mean, people are committed to making it happen.

00:07:04.920 And I think increasingly we're realizing, one of the sayings I like is that you're not,

00:07:10.280 no matter how many times you fail, you're not a failure until you blame someone else.

00:07:14.080 And I think for too long we've sort of looked at this problem and thought, oh yeah, you know,

00:07:18.940 Ontario isn't treating us right.

00:07:20.240 Quebec isn't treating us right.

00:07:21.440 Someone isn't treating us right.

00:07:22.820 But I think all of a sudden the realization is sinking in.

00:07:26.800 Getting a better deal is within our grasp.

00:07:29.560 We just have to do it.

00:07:30.560 It's not our fault that Quebec got a better deal than we did.

00:07:33.580 They obviously read the art of the deal sooner than we did.

00:07:36.100 And so they've got a good deal.

00:07:38.700 But we've been, to me, if there's blame to be laid, it has to be laid at the feet of the

00:07:45.400 people who have represented Alberta over the last 30 years.

00:07:48.560 They've let our wealth slip away.

00:07:52.480 And now when we really do need to have some resources, we're in the most difficult financial

00:07:59.360 situation.

00:08:00.140 We've been in the province since the 30s and we're ill prepared for the storm that's upon us.

00:08:05.000 I know one of the things, and you talked about this with the Fair Deal report, is that a

00:08:09.740 lot of people don't feel that even the Alberta government, the provincial government, is doing

00:08:13.080 enough to lobby for Alberta's interests in Ottawa.

00:08:16.100 And even if you take a very cynical view of politics, which is to say that, you know, they

00:08:21.040 just do things to get re-elected.

00:08:22.600 If there is enough of a growing sentiment of wanting independence, of feeling alienated,

00:08:27.500 why is there not a political incentive for the Alberta government to be a lot more of a

00:08:34.000 fire-breather in discussions with Ottawa?

00:08:37.240 I literally don't understand it.

00:08:39.760 And one of the only concrete action steps from the government's recommendations was to

00:08:46.440 create a presence in Ottawa.

00:08:48.540 And I thought, like, pardon me, like we actually, Alberta taxpayers did create a presence in Ottawa.

00:08:53.740 They're called MPs.

00:08:55.320 But it makes it very difficult for them to do their job when the leadership of our province

00:09:01.260 says, oh, everything's fine.

00:09:02.320 We're hoping to get a little bit better deal, but everything's fine.

00:09:04.760 You can always count on us.

00:09:06.500 And so I think it's unfair to our, like the leadership of Alberta doing that is unfair to

00:09:13.180 our MPs.

00:09:13.760 If our leaders would say, like, we want a new deal, well, then our MPs could go down

00:09:19.020 there and bang on the table and say, look, my people aren't happy.

00:09:22.400 We have to do something about this, and then it would happen.

00:09:25.080 But when the premier of the province you're representing says, oh, everything's fine,

00:09:29.160 we don't want to cause any trouble, if they went and pounded on the table, they'd be getting

00:09:33.080 shunned by their colleagues just the same way as Drew Barnes is getting shunned by his

00:09:36.520 colleagues for speaking up for the people that he's representing.

00:09:39.260 And it's not even just a left versus right problem here.

00:09:43.340 Jason Kenney, of course, a conservative, a longtime conservative stalwart.

00:09:47.160 You look at the Federal Conservative Party of Canada leadership race now, and not one of

00:09:52.080 the leadership candidates hails from west of Toronto.

00:09:54.920 And that doesn't mean that the leadership candidates are not interested in the west and interested

00:09:59.000 in Alberta and all of these issues.

00:10:00.800 But there isn't a representation there.

00:10:03.100 And I guess there are two parts to what I want to get at here.

00:10:06.120 Number one, do you think that this is just because Albertans are not getting engaged at

00:10:11.440 the federal level because they are so frustrated?

00:10:13.920 And the other part is, what can you do, in your view, beyond these summits, which I think

00:10:18.620 are a great starting point, to get more western voices in these national discussions?

00:10:23.720 Well, again, Alberta has to, they have to take charge of making or creating their own destiny.

00:10:34.140 And then everything will start to fall in place.

00:10:36.260 And to the credit of the four national conservative leadership, as you know, Derek Sloan was here

00:10:41.400 yesterday.

00:10:42.240 And I think, I think he improved our province and our conference by being here.

00:10:47.560 And I think he went away, so he said, he went away with having a greater appreciation of

00:10:52.740 some of the issues that we're dealing with.

00:10:54.320 So we certainly appreciate them being here.

00:10:56.080 But again, this is Alberta's responsibility.

00:10:59.040 And I mean, and again, let's, and again, you know, I've sort of laid the blame on our

00:11:03.260 leadership.

00:11:03.760 But having said that, I mean, there's a lot of us that have lived pretty comfortable

00:11:07.560 lives, and we've let our leadership do that to us.

00:11:09.860 And so we all, I mean, there's a growing movement to stand up and say, OK, what did we do wrong?

00:11:14.160 That's why I asked people earlier to read Michael Wagner's book about separation, because some

00:11:19.160 of the people who have become newly frustrated, newly alienated, or, you know, I mean, all

00:11:24.140 they're talking about, well, we're going to change this in three or four years, just because

00:11:27.580 all of a sudden they're focused on it.

00:11:29.240 And the point we're making this, we've tried this, and we've been to this dance before,

00:11:33.000 and it's by no means certain that we'll get a new deal.

00:11:37.900 But it's certain that we're not going to stop trying till we do.

00:11:40.340 So let me ask you then, Danny, about where you want to see this go, because you said

00:11:46.100 on stage, and I think it was very apt, that talk's a lot easier than action, but, you know,

00:11:49.900 action ultimately does more than talk.

00:11:51.420 And I think the middle ground there was that sometimes you need the talk to trigger the

00:11:55.320 action.

00:11:56.100 What is the action?

00:11:57.060 Because for a lot of people, there was some optimism and hope that the Fair Deal panel

00:12:00.440 would be that.

00:12:01.380 You're saying that wasn't the case.

00:12:03.540 A referendum is something that Jason Kenney is pushing down the line a little bit, despite

00:12:07.640 people wanting it more imminently.

00:12:09.680 So what do you think the action would be in the ideal world that would get us to the

00:12:14.840 point that you'd say, I think we're having a fairer deal now, or we have a discussion

00:12:18.660 that is leading to a fair deal now?

00:12:21.100 Well, I think, and we're going to talk about this this afternoon, leading to getting the

00:12:26.720 new deal, there's three ways to, it has to be led by our provincial government.

00:12:33.220 I mean, irrespective of a change coming, I mean, the government is in charge of making

00:12:37.080 things happen.

00:12:37.700 So it has to be led by the provincial government of Alberta.

00:12:41.020 And so there's three ways to make it happen.

00:12:44.140 One, and at this point in time, the provincial government, as you say, you know, Premier

00:12:48.740 Kenney is, I would say, spending more time trying to delay action than actually, you

00:12:53.300 know, creating action.

00:12:54.140 And so we're going to try and come up with a specific action step with specific timelines.

00:12:59.980 And there's three things, there's three ways of making it happen.

00:13:04.000 And I say quite often that it's easier to change the government's mind than it is to

00:13:08.680 change the government.

00:13:09.980 So we have sort of two plans for changing the government's mind and one for changing the

00:13:14.780 government.

00:13:15.160 And so there's two ways to change the government's mind.

00:13:17.880 And one is you can go to your MLA and say, look, I know you're not talking about doing

00:13:21.680 this, but we want you to change your mind and we want you to set a specific time frame

00:13:25.600 for having our own police, for having or collecting our own tax, for having our own pension.

00:13:30.600 And with at the same time as you're laying out this agenda, set a specific date for voting

00:13:35.600 on, you know, autonomy or separation or whatever, if we're not able to achieve some of these

00:13:39.720 things.

00:13:39.900 Although most of them, we don't need the approval of these to do them anyway, so we can just

00:13:43.540 darn well do it.

00:13:44.260 So step one is talk to your MLA and say, do you want to change your mind?

00:13:47.940 Do you want to help us, you know, get a new deal for Alberta?

00:13:51.500 If you can't change the MLA's mind, well, then you have to change the MLA.

00:13:55.860 So a lot of people want to be involved in the UCP and they don't have any intention of

00:14:00.380 working in a different party, but they're absolutely committed, as are we, to getting

00:14:04.260 a new deal.

00:14:05.140 So they're going to go and try and change the MLA's mind.

00:14:07.280 If they can't do that, they're going to set their sights on changing the MLA.

00:14:10.580 So there's going to be a group of people working on that.

00:14:13.240 And clearly, as you heard yesterday, there's a group of people who think, you're not going

00:14:17.100 to be able to do that.

00:14:18.000 We're going to have to change the government.

00:14:19.660 And as you know, Paul Himman announced yesterday that he was going to be the interim leader

00:14:24.000 of the new Wild Rose Independence Party.

00:14:26.040 And he's going to start traveling the province talking about why, you know, trying to change

00:14:30.880 the government's mind isn't worth the trouble and that we need to make a plan to change the

00:14:35.580 government in 2023.

00:14:37.120 So those are the three, and we're going to, you know, after dinner, we're going to, after

00:14:41.280 lunch, we're going to take some suggestions from people, like where do you want to help

00:14:44.800 in this continuum?

00:14:46.160 One of the things that we've said to our group, we're all sort of fighting the same war against,

00:14:50.680 you know, the assault on freedom and debt and deficit and everything else.

00:14:55.060 But we're not all at every battle all the time.

00:14:57.960 We're going to be at lots of different battles in different areas and different people want

00:15:01.720 to address it in different ways.

00:15:02.720 But we're going to, you know, we're going to try and coordinate all the work we're doing

00:15:06.740 and move forward.

00:15:07.940 But we're certainly going to say, look, I think it's September 1st is the 115th anniversary

00:15:13.660 of the beginning of Alberta.

00:15:15.760 So we're going to, by then, we're hoping to lay out a pretty concrete plan of what the

00:15:19.280 other timelines we want.

00:15:20.760 And so anyway, that's our plan.

00:15:22.280 And it's hidden in plain sight.

00:15:24.740 All right.

00:15:24.960 Well, I'm glad it is.

00:15:25.880 Danny Hozak is the chairman of the Economic Education Association.

00:15:29.500 Thanks again for having me and for sitting down today.

00:15:31.380 Thank you.

00:15:31.920 I think Danny Hozak's position on this is an important one.

00:15:35.840 He wants the best deal for Alberta.

00:15:38.420 If that's in Confederation, great.

00:15:40.380 If it has to be out of Confederation, that is a last resort.

00:15:44.380 But the point of this that I think a lot of people are missing out on is that you can't

00:15:49.100 just discount the experiences and frustrations of people in the West by saying, oh, you know,

00:15:54.380 they're just separatists or, oh, they're never going to be happy.

00:15:56.780 No, the vast majority want to be happy.

00:15:59.280 The vast majority want a deal that's going to make it so that a lot of these concerns

00:16:03.940 that are reaching, nearing, or potentially are at a boiling point will subside.

00:16:09.700 But when you have Jason Kenney dismissing these concerns, when you have a federal government

00:16:14.400 that despite really just giving lip service to Western fears in October has done absolutely

00:16:20.660 nothing to ensure the West feel like they are at the table, this is only going to get worse.

00:16:28.520 And a lot of the specifics of what it is that people in the West want, it's not just about

00:16:33.500 the cultural shock here of a liberal country versus a conservative province.

00:16:39.680 It isn't about that.

00:16:40.980 People try to simplify it to that, but that isn't it at all.

00:16:44.120 In fact, if you look at the combined populations of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Northern BC, Manitoba,

00:16:50.780 these are areas that are very conservative in nature.

00:16:54.540 They make up a huge chunk of Canada, but still they don't feel like their interests are represented

00:16:59.360 in the federal government and by extension in Confederation's primary system of government,

00:17:05.580 which is Parliament in Ottawa.

00:17:07.420 And what's interesting here is that a lot of the things that are being sought are not

00:17:12.380 radical concepts at all.

00:17:14.300 In fact, one of the most notable qualities is that many of these things were proposed

00:17:19.200 nearly two decades ago.

00:17:21.540 And by some of these proposals, what I'm talking about are areas where the West wants to,

00:17:26.060 for lack of a better term, repatriate things that are currently handled by the federal government

00:17:30.980 that could be under provincial control, notably policing, notably an Alberta pension plan

00:17:37.260 rather than the Canada pension plan.

00:17:39.400 Quebec has done these things.

00:17:41.000 Why can't Alberta?

00:17:42.040 That's the refrain.

00:17:43.500 And many of these ideas were laid out in 2001 in a famous op-ed called The Firewall Letter

00:17:50.520 that was authored by a number of luminaries, including Stephen Harper and Professor Tom Flanagan,

00:17:55.600 who went on to be the campaign manager that steered Stephen Harper's Conservatives to victory in 2006.

00:18:02.720 But in 2001, the question was, how can we in Alberta put, for lack of a better term,

00:18:09.740 a firewall around us?

00:18:12.180 And there was a lot of controversy here.

00:18:14.560 A lot of people that thought this was separation.

00:18:16.900 But what's interesting is that it wasn't.

00:18:19.180 It wasn't actually about separation.

00:18:21.080 It was about trying to avoid the flare-up in tensions that we are seeing now.

00:18:26.760 Because if this had gone forward, Alberta wouldn't have been as reliant on the federal government now.

00:18:32.600 I sat down with Tom Flanagan at the conference, and we spoke about the letter,

00:18:36.620 coming up on its 20th anniversary, and looking at how the situation is now,

00:18:41.600 and ultimately how the ideas put forward in the letter fared.

00:18:44.920 Tom, it's good to talk to you again.

00:18:46.260 Thanks for sitting down with me today.

00:18:47.520 My pleasure.

00:18:48.560 You know, this is a really pivotal point in Alberta.

00:18:51.460 A lot of people are talking about independence, alienation,

00:18:55.200 discussed as something being at an all-time high.

00:18:58.280 It's been nearly 20 years since the famous Alberta Firewall Letter

00:19:02.920 was first published in the National Post, coming up January 2001.

00:19:06.620 was the initial publication of it.

00:19:09.100 And what's interesting when I hear a lot of the independence talk now

00:19:12.680 is that almost all of the remedies that are being proposed

00:19:15.940 are things that were enumerated quite clearly in that letter.

00:19:19.920 So I guess as you look back at that, I mean,

00:19:22.120 why do you think this has really hit a resurgence now, almost two decades later?

00:19:26.640 Yeah.

00:19:27.140 Well, it is a kind of a funny history.

00:19:29.620 The so-called Firewall Letter was actually Stephen Harper's idea

00:19:33.600 and came to him after the 2000 election.

00:19:38.120 And the Canadian alliance appeared to be stalled.

00:19:42.240 And Stephen was president of the National Citizens Coalition.

00:19:44.920 And he was thinking of a way to revivify provinces in Canada

00:19:51.100 because it looked like change through the federal government would not be possible.

00:19:55.520 So some friends, we sat down and we kind of brainstormed on

00:20:00.100 what would be some ways in which provinces could make greater use

00:20:03.920 of their constitutional powers.

00:20:05.500 It wasn't meant to be a separatist document,

00:20:08.300 but it was meant to encourage provinces to move in a more autonomous direction.

00:20:15.260 And we wrote the first one for Alberta,

00:20:18.440 but actually Stephen intended there to be other letters for other provinces as well.

00:20:23.360 Well, everything changed very quickly

00:20:26.520 when the Canadian alliance declared a leadership race to be open.

00:20:33.480 Stockwell Day had gotten into political trouble.

00:20:36.080 Stephen decided to run for leader of the alliance.

00:20:38.400 And so he never did anything further with the Firewall Letter at all.

00:20:42.860 He moved into, he saw an opportunity to change federal politics,

00:20:48.520 which in fact he did, you know, became prime minister for 10 years.

00:20:55.440 And so in the period when Stephen was prime minister,

00:20:57.600 there wasn't this kind of talk of separation in Alberta.

00:21:04.420 Stephen didn't deliver everything that Albertans might have wanted,

00:21:07.480 but at least he didn't appear to be hostile to Alberta.

00:21:10.620 You know, he appeared to be friendly.

00:21:11.480 And he spoke in favor of the oil industry and of pipelines.

00:21:15.500 And he, so I think Albertans were satisfied.

00:21:21.400 But in the meantime, the ideas of the Firewall Letter were percolating.

00:21:26.580 Even though Stephen chose not to do anything with them

00:21:29.300 after he got into federal politics,

00:21:31.440 they caught on in grassroots elements within provincial politics,

00:21:37.080 the Wild Rose Party particularly.

00:21:38.960 And they were kept alive by provincial parties

00:21:43.260 and finally became part of Jason Kenney's platform.

00:21:48.680 And he ended up appointing the Fair Deal Panel,

00:21:51.220 which is to examine a lot of what was in the Firewall Letter,

00:21:55.160 plus a lot of other good ideas too.

00:21:56.740 So the thing has snowballed as time goes on.

00:21:59.900 It's sort of way, we wrote it, I say we, I just held the pen,

00:22:04.880 people contributed ideas.

00:22:07.160 I just edited it.

00:22:08.400 I always call myself the editor general.

00:22:09.980 But it got way beyond our conception.

00:22:17.280 It's now being used for totally different purposes, which is fine.

00:22:22.980 You know, there's no property rights, political ideas.

00:22:26.340 So, but it's had an interesting life, life of its own.

00:22:30.200 So where it is now, I think it's been a source of ideas

00:22:34.220 for Alberta to fight for a better deal,

00:22:40.200 maybe leading to a separation someday,

00:22:44.940 but that's not really necessarily part of it at all.

00:22:47.920 It's a way of fighting back, taking the initiative.

00:22:52.680 Now, interestingly, I think the best idea of all

00:22:55.080 that has come up since then

00:22:56.540 is to take on the equalization issue.

00:22:59.540 That was not in the Firewall Letter.

00:23:01.400 We didn't think of that one.

00:23:05.000 Just, as I say, it was six guys brainstorming.

00:23:08.480 And we put down some ideas that looked good to us,

00:23:10.980 but it wasn't a product of extensive research.

00:23:13.580 So we didn't even think of equalization.

00:23:16.480 But since then, there have been Supreme Court decisions

00:23:18.660 which have made it possible to take that on.

00:23:24.580 So I think Jason has done the logical thing

00:23:28.000 is to single out equalization as the lowest hanging fruit.

00:23:31.940 If you hold a referendum on equalization,

00:23:34.100 you're going to get like 90% plus in Alberta voting,

00:23:37.500 whatever precisely the question is.

00:23:40.380 It'll be on the, against equalization.

00:23:43.540 So you start there with a big success,

00:23:45.600 and then you try and, then you demand

00:23:47.820 that the other provinces come to the table

00:23:50.300 for, and the federal government

00:23:51.420 for constitutional negotiations.

00:23:53.240 Now we have a Supreme Court authority for that.

00:23:56.700 And then you go from there.

00:23:58.100 So I think it's, I think it may have some legs.

00:24:01.360 Do you think that the fact that the Firewall Letter

00:24:03.840 didn't really have imminently any real effect

00:24:07.580 is evidence of the fact that these concerns

00:24:10.980 will almost be cyclical,

00:24:12.540 where it will come and then people will move on from it?

00:24:14.940 Or do you think that the dialogue

00:24:16.220 is different this time around?

00:24:17.440 Well, no, no, I think that it is cyclical

00:24:20.980 with respect to federal politics.

00:24:22.720 The movement for the Reform Party arose basically

00:24:27.060 as a reaction to the, first as a reaction

00:24:30.080 to the national energy program,

00:24:31.580 but then disappointment in the Mulroney government,

00:24:34.440 belief that the Mulroney government

00:24:36.240 wasn't that much different from the Pierre Trudeau's government.

00:24:40.160 Maybe that was unfair to Mulroney,

00:24:41.660 but that way that's how people perceived it.

00:24:43.360 But then that resulted in a long strain of events,

00:24:48.640 Reform Party, Canadian Alliance,

00:24:50.120 merger with the remnants of the Progressive Conservatives,

00:24:53.380 the Harper government for 10 years.

00:24:55.240 People in the West were largely satisfied.

00:24:57.660 Then you get a change in power

00:24:59.380 and policies that are, since 2015,

00:25:03.360 that have been hostile to the interests of Albertans.

00:25:06.480 And then a re-election of that government,

00:25:08.400 which was the final nail in the coffin.

00:25:10.500 Yeah, the re-election of the government.

00:25:13.900 And so, you know, if federal politics moves

00:25:19.980 in a different direction,

00:25:20.960 then I think the antagonism in Alberta will again decline.

00:25:26.560 It really plays off what the federal government is doing.

00:25:29.780 But when the federal government is attacking our livelihood,

00:25:33.380 naturally the temperature is going to rise.

00:25:36.620 So, you know, my weakness in politics,

00:25:40.320 I could never predict the future.

00:25:42.620 You know, if I could,

00:25:43.700 I wouldn't be just a lousy retired professor.

00:25:45.980 Now I'd be something much more important.

00:25:50.100 So I can't predict the future.

00:25:51.480 But I think the pattern is clear,

00:25:52.960 that if the federal government is attacking Alberta,

00:25:55.840 Albertans are going to want to fight back.

00:25:57.560 And the idea is that we're in the firewall letter

00:25:59.440 originally for a different purpose,

00:26:00.620 but they can now be used.

00:26:03.020 In the meantime, they've grown

00:26:04.060 and been elaborated by others.

00:26:06.360 And I think they're going to provide some ammunition

00:26:09.000 for fighting back.

00:26:13.120 Up until now, Alberta's largely been just,

00:26:15.920 you know, complaining about federal initiatives,

00:26:19.020 but hasn't had initiatives of its own.

00:26:21.760 And so I think that's what the letter now

00:26:24.680 will provide,

00:26:26.380 is some bullets to fire,

00:26:28.200 starting with equalization,

00:26:29.060 equalization,

00:26:29.780 then creating an Alberta police force,

00:26:32.820 possibly an Alberta pension plan.

00:26:34.420 These are initiatives that,

00:26:36.860 A, could be good for Alberta,

00:26:38.160 and B, are disruptive

00:26:40.140 to federal,

00:26:43.660 existing federal programs and policies.

00:26:45.580 So this can be a way,

00:26:46.780 I would hope,

00:26:48.020 of bringing whoever is in charge

00:26:49.940 of the federal government,

00:26:50.820 bringing them to the table

00:26:51.860 and saying,

00:26:52.300 look, the situation is intolerable,

00:26:53.800 and you're going to have to make

00:26:56.100 some concessions.

00:26:59.160 So I, you know,

00:27:00.200 but I was really impressed

00:27:02.420 with Germain Belzile's presentation.

00:27:05.100 You know, this is a long game.

00:27:07.360 The separatist movement in Quebec

00:27:09.580 originates, let's say,

00:27:12.240 in the early 1960s.

00:27:13.480 Well, that's, you know,

00:27:14.200 almost 60 years ago.

00:27:15.940 And it took decades for them

00:27:17.920 to achieve various objectives.

00:27:22.260 You know, it's all gradual

00:27:23.660 over a long period of time,

00:27:24.920 and there were setbacks

00:27:25.780 along the way.

00:27:27.260 But we're really just now

00:27:30.340 setting out in Alberta

00:27:31.680 with our own version of,

00:27:33.840 let's call it an autonomous strategy.

00:27:37.600 It doesn't yield dividends overnight.

00:27:40.900 It's going to take time.

00:27:42.120 And I guess if,

00:27:43.140 to go with some of those

00:27:43.960 firewall recommendations

00:27:45.060 of repatriating a police force,

00:27:46.920 a pension plan,

00:27:47.940 and, you know,

00:27:48.720 perhaps even taking

00:27:49.740 federal income tax in Alberta

00:27:51.680 and then passing it on

00:27:52.700 to the government

00:27:53.300 and Alberta Revenue Agency,

00:27:54.820 it's another idea

00:27:55.540 that's been put forward.

00:27:56.940 All of these suggestions,

00:27:58.180 do you not think

00:27:58.760 these are leading themselves

00:27:59.740 to a point where

00:28:00.740 Alberta will be so segregated

00:28:04.460 from the Canadian experience,

00:28:05.980 if you will,

00:28:06.520 that it might just be worth

00:28:08.180 cutting that final thread,

00:28:09.900 which is the connection to Canada,

00:28:11.540 being a province of Canada?

00:28:12.780 Yeah.

00:28:13.560 Well, it could end in two ways.

00:28:15.020 Yes, it could.

00:28:15.920 Yes, it could keep building

00:28:17.100 and building and building

00:28:17.920 and still there's not much

00:28:19.600 of a connection left

00:28:20.540 and separation becomes

00:28:23.600 a foregone conclusion.

00:28:25.020 But as I was listening

00:28:26.080 to Bell Zill this morning,

00:28:27.960 it occurred to me

00:28:29.040 that there could also be,

00:28:30.300 you might call it

00:28:31.280 an autonomy trap,

00:28:32.620 that if you're successful

00:28:33.700 in your demands

00:28:34.720 for greater control

00:28:35.940 over your own affairs

00:28:36.800 and you end up

00:28:37.360 with your own police force

00:28:38.160 and your own pension plan

00:28:39.200 and equalization

00:28:41.900 becomes less harmful

00:28:42.900 and you have a bunch

00:28:44.800 of other things,

00:28:46.280 then you say,

00:28:47.240 well, okay,

00:28:47.700 we can live with that.

00:28:48.960 And that's kind of

00:28:49.640 what's happened in Quebec

00:28:50.600 as the demand

00:28:52.140 for separation,

00:28:53.660 which was driving it

00:28:55.580 and made federal politicians

00:28:57.400 willing to make concessions,

00:28:58.980 but the demand

00:28:59.920 for separation

00:29:00.660 hasn't disappeared,

00:29:02.320 but it has certainly declined.

00:29:03.940 So it could be

00:29:04.700 that by making

00:29:05.400 these concessions,

00:29:06.220 the situation

00:29:09.860 gets resolved

00:29:10.760 and the Albertans

00:29:14.000 are happy,

00:29:15.520 you know,

00:29:15.760 content with

00:29:16.460 greater autonomy.

00:29:18.680 But, I mean,

00:29:19.300 a lot of this

00:29:19.760 is going to depend

00:29:20.420 on factors from outside.

00:29:24.140 If the,

00:29:25.100 no matter what you did

00:29:26.080 about a pension plan

00:29:27.000 and a police force,

00:29:28.040 if the federal government

00:29:29.380 is still trying

00:29:29.980 to strangle

00:29:30.480 your main industry,

00:29:31.920 there are going to be

00:29:33.340 demands for separation.

00:29:34.860 So something,

00:29:36.220 things have to happen

00:29:36.920 outside of the drive

00:29:39.340 for greater autonomy.

00:29:40.900 I've heard from

00:29:41.760 a lot of people

00:29:42.440 at the conference

00:29:43.380 this weekend

00:29:43.940 that Jason Kenney

00:29:45.280 is not the answer.

00:29:46.220 This guy who,

00:29:46.840 a couple of years ago,

00:29:47.520 it seems like,

00:29:48.100 was being trumpeted

00:29:48.780 as the savior of Alberta

00:29:50.320 coming in,

00:29:51.060 uniting the right,

00:29:52.180 is now just not

00:29:53.660 really held in high esteem

00:29:55.060 by a lot of the most

00:29:56.000 adamant separatists.

00:29:57.220 And I know you and I

00:29:58.080 were talking earlier

00:29:58.880 about this,

00:29:59.420 and you're saying

00:29:59.900 that you think

00:30:00.680 it's far too early

00:30:01.660 to reach a conclusion

00:30:02.660 that he's not

00:30:03.380 dealing with this issue.

00:30:04.800 Yeah, I think we,

00:30:06.460 personally,

00:30:06.880 I believe we need

00:30:07.480 to give Jason a chance.

00:30:08.780 He came back to Alberta,

00:30:09.900 he pulled off

00:30:10.660 an amazing political

00:30:12.780 accomplishment

00:30:13.360 of first becoming

00:30:14.420 leader of the

00:30:15.260 progressive conservatives

00:30:16.140 and then leading

00:30:17.180 a merger drive

00:30:18.720 with Wild Rose

00:30:19.520 and then become

00:30:20.040 leader of Wild Rose

00:30:20.920 and then defeating

00:30:21.700 the NDP

00:30:24.360 in an election

00:30:25.080 overwhelmingly.

00:30:25.780 so, you know,

00:30:27.540 he's already

00:30:27.940 accomplished

00:30:28.580 a political trifecta.

00:30:31.040 The guy's obviously

00:30:32.220 got political talent.

00:30:33.440 I mean, I know that

00:30:34.400 anyway, having known

00:30:35.320 Jason for a long time.

00:30:36.220 He's got tremendous

00:30:37.160 political ability

00:30:37.960 and I'm certainly

00:30:39.220 not ready to

00:30:40.620 write him off.

00:30:43.140 He's been

00:30:43.780 sideswiped by

00:30:44.880 the, you know,

00:30:48.640 the combination

00:30:49.340 of the price,

00:30:51.840 international price war

00:30:52.700 over oil and COVID.

00:30:53.900 These are things

00:30:54.520 that were largely

00:30:55.680 out of his control.

00:30:57.320 So, I think this

00:30:59.240 has affected

00:31:00.020 the timetable

00:31:00.700 but I can still

00:31:01.380 see the plan

00:31:02.100 emerging

00:31:02.600 and I think

00:31:04.120 that, but, you know,

00:31:06.800 I say this

00:31:07.340 because I'm

00:31:08.140 comfortably retired

00:31:09.720 living on my pension.

00:31:11.520 You know,

00:31:11.720 if I was owning

00:31:13.340 a small oil company

00:31:15.020 I might be

00:31:15.720 a lot more impatient.

00:31:17.540 Yes, and I mean,

00:31:18.460 that was...

00:31:18.960 And I understand that.

00:31:20.040 And that was, I mean,

00:31:20.760 very much the Stephen

00:31:21.460 Harper approach

00:31:22.100 on issues.

00:31:22.640 That incrementalism,

00:31:23.680 very pragmatic

00:31:24.420 and certainly rooted

00:31:26.060 in a conservative

00:31:27.220 philosophy and I think

00:31:28.160 there are a lot of

00:31:28.700 people that don't

00:31:29.560 want incrementalism

00:31:31.000 when things are so

00:31:31.820 bad in their view

00:31:32.540 right now.

00:31:33.440 Yeah, I know.

00:31:34.820 And I understand

00:31:36.200 the impatience.

00:31:36.940 I used to be

00:31:37.400 impatient myself, but...

00:31:39.560 Before you were

00:31:40.040 retired.

00:31:40.600 Now you've got time.

00:31:42.220 But, no,

00:31:43.520 I can remember

00:31:43.960 Stephen saying that

00:31:45.040 a conservative party

00:31:47.140 has to be

00:31:47.960 incremental.

00:31:48.520 the only successful

00:31:51.300 strategy for a conservative

00:31:53.140 party is incrementalism.

00:31:54.560 I said that a long,

00:31:55.540 long time ago

00:31:56.200 when he was still

00:31:57.080 a very young man.

00:31:57.900 And do you think

00:31:58.300 that's still true?

00:31:59.260 And I think that's

00:31:59.900 still true, yeah.

00:32:00.400 And I see this as

00:32:01.180 an application of

00:32:02.580 incrementalism to

00:32:03.560 Alberta.

00:32:05.260 It's an...

00:32:05.580 To call it an application

00:32:06.680 of Harperism to Alberta,

00:32:08.080 you know,

00:32:08.520 it's no surprise

00:32:09.420 that Jason was

00:32:10.760 being helped

00:32:11.600 a great deal

00:32:12.360 on the background

00:32:12.900 by Harper.

00:32:15.800 So,

00:32:16.560 I think it worked

00:32:19.980 as long as it was

00:32:20.920 being applied

00:32:21.620 in Ottawa.

00:32:23.780 Eventually it was

00:32:24.480 defeated.

00:32:25.380 But for 10 years,

00:32:26.360 I think incrementalism

00:32:27.580 showed that it can work.

00:32:29.160 And I think it can

00:32:29.860 work here too.

00:32:30.700 But it does,

00:32:31.300 by definition,

00:32:32.000 it takes time.

00:32:33.580 Tom Flanagan,

00:32:34.400 thank you very much.

00:32:35.200 Okay.

00:32:36.200 Glad to talk.

00:32:37.820 I think the fact

00:32:38.980 that after nearly

00:32:40.220 two decades,

00:32:41.460 a lot of these

00:32:42.140 problems have

00:32:42.880 come back again.

00:32:43.980 And some people

00:32:44.720 would argue

00:32:45.140 they never went away.

00:32:46.180 But the fact

00:32:46.760 that they're coming

00:32:47.240 back again

00:32:47.800 with such fervor

00:32:48.720 is an indication

00:32:49.980 that the cultural

00:32:51.140 battle is really

00:32:52.200 what matters here.

00:32:53.620 And right now,

00:32:54.420 the culture in Alberta

00:32:55.460 has shifted a bit,

00:32:56.520 or at the very least,

00:32:57.400 they think that

00:32:57.860 the culture in Canada

00:32:58.800 has shifted a bit

00:33:00.120 in the other direction.

00:33:01.680 And I think this is

00:33:02.620 why any large movement

00:33:04.440 needs to have

00:33:05.520 some momentum,

00:33:06.240 which means it needs

00:33:07.180 to have a cultural

00:33:08.260 backdrop that is

00:33:09.840 receptive to that

00:33:10.980 movement.

00:33:11.920 Politicians are

00:33:12.660 always going to be,

00:33:13.520 and I've said this

00:33:14.040 before, followers.

00:33:15.120 And it's not to

00:33:15.720 knock them,

00:33:16.320 but it's that

00:33:16.660 they are products

00:33:17.860 of the culture

00:33:18.680 in which they live,

00:33:19.800 which means that

00:33:20.340 a politician

00:33:21.000 is not going to

00:33:22.660 do something

00:33:23.500 too, too radical

00:33:24.360 if they want

00:33:24.880 to get reelected

00:33:25.800 unless they know

00:33:26.920 that there's a portion

00:33:27.840 of the population

00:33:28.700 that is there

00:33:29.820 supporting it.

00:33:30.640 They need the cover

00:33:31.440 to say,

00:33:31.920 well, I'm doing

00:33:32.740 what the people want.

00:33:34.360 And that was why

00:33:35.140 Drew Barnes,

00:33:35.840 with whom we spoke

00:33:36.560 in the first part

00:33:37.460 of this series,

00:33:38.600 was so frustrated

00:33:40.600 with the Fair Deal

00:33:41.680 panel report

00:33:42.460 because he didn't

00:33:43.160 think it was aligning

00:33:44.100 with what the people

00:33:45.480 of Alberta

00:33:45.940 were actually telling him

00:33:47.040 when he was going

00:33:47.640 around the province

00:33:48.420 having these panel

00:33:49.580 meetings and people

00:33:50.380 were coming up

00:33:50.960 to the microphone.

00:33:51.660 And he didn't see

00:33:52.660 that really translated

00:33:54.020 into the report itself.

00:33:56.900 So a lot of these

00:33:58.380 things must advance

00:34:00.300 and must continue.

00:34:01.680 Otherwise,

00:34:02.340 there's never going

00:34:03.120 to be that significant

00:34:04.280 change.

00:34:04.780 And the fact that

00:34:05.380 two decades has elapsed

00:34:06.740 since the firewall letter

00:34:08.120 and we're back

00:34:08.720 to where we were

00:34:09.620 there is evidence

00:34:11.520 of this.

00:34:12.540 So I do want to talk

00:34:13.880 about a little bit

00:34:14.940 of the specific

00:34:15.880 part of this

00:34:17.280 because when there

00:34:18.860 is a proposal

00:34:20.720 afoot like the one

00:34:22.220 that was in the

00:34:22.820 firewall letter

00:34:23.560 and like some of the

00:34:24.780 ideas that are there

00:34:25.660 now, it's easy to get

00:34:27.240 caught up in the

00:34:27.980 abstract of,

00:34:29.040 well, you know,

00:34:29.400 Western alienation,

00:34:30.440 Western independence,

00:34:31.440 Alberta separation,

00:34:32.440 all of these things

00:34:33.100 without dealing

00:34:34.160 with the meat of it.

00:34:35.300 I talked at the

00:34:36.200 beginning of the show

00:34:36.880 about equalization

00:34:37.820 payments,

00:34:38.380 probably one of the

00:34:39.660 biggest frustrations

00:34:41.280 and the biggest

00:34:41.940 grievances that the

00:34:43.100 people of Alberta

00:34:43.780 have with their

00:34:44.920 treatment.

00:34:45.460 $20 billion to $40

00:34:47.080 billion that Alberta

00:34:48.320 is sending that is

00:34:49.700 purely for the

00:34:50.780 betterment of other

00:34:51.680 provinces and

00:34:52.520 confederation.

00:34:53.900 Imagine if, for

00:34:54.980 example, New York

00:34:55.980 was forced to

00:34:56.740 subsidize Idaho or

00:34:58.160 California was forced

00:34:59.820 to subsidize Wyoming

00:35:01.060 or whatever the case

00:35:01.940 is.

00:35:02.360 I mean, they would

00:35:03.040 never stand for that

00:35:04.260 because in the

00:35:05.300 United States,

00:35:06.180 each state has as

00:35:07.460 kind of its birthright

00:35:08.680 the ability to

00:35:10.300 govern its own

00:35:10.860 affairs, the ability

00:35:11.760 to bring in its own

00:35:12.660 revenue, the ability

00:35:13.580 to do all of these

00:35:14.820 things that are

00:35:15.380 necessary for the

00:35:16.300 betterment of the

00:35:17.080 state.

00:35:17.760 But in Canada, we

00:35:18.860 take for granted

00:35:19.700 that the successful

00:35:20.660 provinces, the

00:35:21.900 haves, must subsidize

00:35:23.940 and bankroll the

00:35:25.240 less successful ones,

00:35:26.740 the have-nots.

00:35:28.000 And I don't know if

00:35:28.720 this is just from

00:35:29.460 this very caricaturistic

00:35:32.620 version of what it

00:35:33.800 means to be Canadian

00:35:34.780 about, oh, we look

00:35:35.540 out for our

00:35:35.980 neighbours and all

00:35:36.600 of that.

00:35:37.240 But in actuality,

00:35:38.260 what it means is

00:35:38.860 that provinces like

00:35:39.840 Alberta, who have

00:35:41.000 had a great deal of

00:35:41.980 oil revenue and

00:35:43.060 energy success, but

00:35:44.560 are still economically

00:35:46.120 hurting in many

00:35:47.320 ways.

00:35:47.800 The true Alberta

00:35:49.160 success has not

00:35:50.160 translated if you

00:35:51.460 look around at

00:35:52.420 suicide rates, at

00:35:54.040 commercial vacancy

00:35:55.380 rates, at drug

00:35:56.400 use, domestic

00:35:57.520 violence, all of

00:35:58.380 these metrics that

00:35:59.240 show, as True

00:36:00.520 North dealt with in

00:36:01.560 a documentary a

00:36:02.700 couple of months

00:36:03.220 ago that show a

00:36:04.120 Calgaryen crisis, yet

00:36:06.180 Alberta is still

00:36:07.140 profiting in such a

00:36:08.260 way that it can

00:36:08.860 bankroll the

00:36:09.460 have-not provinces.

00:36:11.520 And there's

00:36:12.320 something about

00:36:13.320 this that is very

00:36:14.320 unjust, because it

00:36:15.880 means that a

00:36:16.400 province can never

00:36:17.260 quite get ahead if

00:36:18.800 the first 20 to

00:36:19.660 40 billion dollars

00:36:20.720 that it brings in

00:36:21.840 belongs to the

00:36:22.800 federal government

00:36:23.520 for the purposes of

00:36:24.660 wealth redistribution.

00:36:26.740 So what a lot of

00:36:27.640 people in Alberta

00:36:28.380 want is to find

00:36:30.160 ways that they can

00:36:31.180 govern their own

00:36:31.880 affairs more

00:36:32.960 adequately.

00:36:33.540 One example of

00:36:34.560 this is to have

00:36:35.480 an Alberta police

00:36:36.580 force, not the

00:36:38.180 RCMP, operating in

00:36:39.720 Alberta as a

00:36:40.480 provincial police

00:36:41.120 force, but an

00:36:41.700 Alberta police

00:36:42.720 force like Ontario

00:36:43.740 has with the

00:36:44.440 OPP, like Quebec

00:36:45.740 has with the

00:36:46.580 Chorité de Québec.

00:36:48.060 And this is an

00:36:49.000 area where a lot

00:36:49.940 of the naysayers,

00:36:51.540 people that aren't

00:36:52.120 fond of the

00:36:52.980 independence idea,

00:36:54.360 will try to say,

00:36:54.960 oh, but I mean,

00:36:55.540 you can't do that,

00:36:56.800 you can't make that

00:36:57.420 change, Alberta has

00:36:58.260 the RCMP.

00:36:59.420 And even some

00:37:00.560 people will say,

00:37:01.480 well, if Alberta

00:37:02.220 separates, I mean,

00:37:02.960 what are they going

00:37:03.360 to do for a

00:37:03.860 military?

00:37:04.860 People start to

00:37:05.660 come up with

00:37:06.180 reasons why Alberta

00:37:07.720 can't move on its

00:37:09.180 independence goals.

00:37:10.380 And a lot of

00:37:11.200 these, as former

00:37:12.340 Member of Parliament

00:37:13.100 Rob Anders spoke

00:37:14.080 about, are pretty

00:37:15.380 easily dealt with.

00:37:17.020 Rob Anders spoke

00:37:17.920 about the law

00:37:19.100 enforcement and

00:37:19.760 military components

00:37:20.740 specifically in his

00:37:21.720 speech at Freedom

00:37:22.820 Talk.

00:37:23.200 And I thought it was

00:37:23.900 interesting for two

00:37:24.920 reasons, because

00:37:25.640 number one, it gives

00:37:26.840 some ideas that could

00:37:27.740 be implemented now.

00:37:28.800 And it also really

00:37:30.360 talks about the

00:37:31.220 scenarios if Alberta

00:37:32.500 were to move

00:37:33.100 forward on

00:37:33.640 independence, and

00:37:34.740 why one of the

00:37:35.660 chief criticisms

00:37:36.520 that people give

00:37:37.340 isn't really one

00:37:38.220 that holds water.

00:37:39.260 This is my chat

00:37:40.180 with Rob Anders.

00:37:41.520 Rob, good to

00:37:42.040 talk to you.

00:37:42.500 Thank you very

00:37:43.000 much.

00:37:43.460 So let's talk

00:37:44.600 about where we

00:37:45.360 are in the Alberta

00:37:46.120 independence discussion,

00:37:47.260 because I find that

00:37:48.020 a lot of people who

00:37:49.480 tend to be resistant

00:37:50.560 to the idea really

00:37:51.720 try to focus on a

00:37:52.940 lot of the details to

00:37:53.980 the point of, I

00:37:54.640 think, trying to

00:37:55.200 railroad the process

00:37:56.080 about, but what

00:37:56.880 about this, but

00:37:57.440 what about this, but

00:37:58.200 what about this?

00:37:59.260 And in your talk

00:38:00.060 this weekend, you

00:38:01.220 really, I think,

00:38:01.860 dismantled a lot of

00:38:02.840 that, specifically on

00:38:03.860 policing and military,

00:38:05.360 by showing that

00:38:06.440 there's not just a

00:38:07.320 way that Alberta

00:38:08.220 could deal with that

00:38:09.120 moving forward to be

00:38:10.120 a bit more autonomous

00:38:10.900 or even perhaps

00:38:12.140 completely sovereign,

00:38:13.620 but a way that has

00:38:15.140 already been done

00:38:15.680 before elsewhere.

00:38:16.560 It's not all that

00:38:17.060 radical.

00:38:18.120 Yeah, I like to

00:38:19.280 use templates.

00:38:20.440 I'm a big believer

00:38:21.240 in history, and it

00:38:22.340 may not repeat itself,

00:38:23.260 but at least it

00:38:23.680 echoes.

00:38:24.600 So when it comes to

00:38:26.220 policing, I

00:38:26.880 Alberta's already

00:38:27.560 got the Alberta

00:38:28.280 sheriffs.

00:38:29.020 They've been

00:38:29.360 operating, you

00:38:30.180 know, for decades.

00:38:31.360 We've got almost

00:38:31.940 1,000 of them.

00:38:33.260 You know, the RCMP

00:38:34.300 force in this

00:38:34.920 province is about

00:38:35.560 3,000.

00:38:36.540 So literally, you

00:38:37.480 know, one option is

00:38:38.300 you could literally

00:38:39.000 fourfold the size of

00:38:40.580 the Alberta

00:38:40.860 sheriffs.

00:38:41.460 Mission accomplished.

00:38:42.940 Alberta, historically,

00:38:44.160 from 1916 to 1932,

00:38:46.620 federal government

00:38:47.220 didn't want to take

00:38:48.200 on all the costs.

00:38:48.940 The First World War

00:38:49.500 downloaded the

00:38:50.240 policing to the

00:38:50.760 provinces.

00:38:51.820 We had at that

00:38:52.780 point, including

00:38:53.340 Newfoundland, even

00:38:54.100 pre-49, eight out of

00:38:55.840 ten provinces had

00:38:56.660 their own

00:38:56.900 provincial police

00:38:57.500 forces.

00:38:58.520 Excuse me.

00:38:59.380 So, and Alberta

00:39:00.960 did a great job.

00:39:01.920 You know, for the

00:39:02.480 first year, there was

00:39:03.440 a bit of a transition.

00:39:04.960 There were some people

00:39:05.540 who'd been part of the

00:39:06.400 Northwest Mounted

00:39:07.120 Police that, you know,

00:39:08.300 got there through the

00:39:09.020 nepotism or this, that,

00:39:10.540 or whatever.

00:39:11.080 And the first year or so,

00:39:12.200 the Alberta

00:39:12.480 Provincial Police

00:39:12.940 sorted it out, and it

00:39:14.540 became a force that had

00:39:15.580 a better rate with

00:39:17.920 regard to conviction,

00:39:19.700 et cetera, than the

00:39:21.080 Northwest Mounted Police

00:39:21.960 had been before.

00:39:23.540 Criminals wanted to

00:39:24.500 avoid Alberta because

00:39:25.460 it was known for a

00:39:26.160 place that you were

00:39:26.620 going to get convicted

00:39:27.320 and go to jail, you

00:39:28.280 know.

00:39:28.840 And so we had a

00:39:29.980 wonderful track record

00:39:30.960 of policing, provincial

00:39:32.180 policing in the 1920s

00:39:33.220 all across Canada,

00:39:34.020 particularly Alberta.

00:39:35.420 When it comes to the

00:39:36.540 military, Alberta is

00:39:37.920 between four and five

00:39:39.120 million people.

00:39:40.280 You can look at a

00:39:41.820 half dozen jurisdictions

00:39:42.760 in the United States

00:39:43.780 that have their own

00:39:44.500 reserves, you know,

00:39:45.480 et cetera, some of them

00:39:46.220 dating back into the

00:39:47.040 1600s.

00:39:47.840 You know, we have

00:39:49.920 about a half dozen

00:39:51.520 countries that I compare

00:39:52.760 us to, Ireland, the

00:39:54.940 Moldova, you know,

00:39:58.040 I'm trying to remember

00:39:58.680 all the ones,

00:39:59.140 Switzerland.

00:39:59.780 Croatia was one of them.

00:40:00.760 Croatia was one.

00:40:01.860 Switzerland during the

00:40:02.660 Second World War, very

00:40:03.940 impressive.

00:40:04.540 Its population was just

00:40:05.540 over four million people,

00:40:06.500 almost exactly the same

00:40:07.360 as Alberta.

00:40:08.180 Yet, because of the

00:40:09.100 reserve structure, they

00:40:09.920 could raise 850,000

00:40:11.840 people to counter the

00:40:12.860 Germans, potentially

00:40:13.840 putting two million

00:40:14.640 against their border.

00:40:15.280 That's the creme de la

00:40:17.480 creme of you're having

00:40:18.780 your own, you know,

00:40:19.600 reserve and force to

00:40:21.640 look after yourself.

00:40:23.060 But, you know, some of

00:40:23.900 the others are way more

00:40:24.600 modest, a thousand people,

00:40:25.920 et cetera.

00:40:26.560 The numbers, the math.

00:40:28.200 When you look at, say,

00:40:29.800 for example, policing,

00:40:30.720 Alberta pays about

00:40:31.580 $350 million a year to

00:40:34.060 the federal government

00:40:34.800 for the RCMP.

00:40:36.900 Oh, sorry, it pays about

00:40:38.100 $350 million of its own,

00:40:39.700 okay?

00:40:40.340 And then we pay another

00:40:41.440 $100 million to the

00:40:42.700 federal government for

00:40:43.440 their component.

00:40:44.140 So for $100 million,

00:40:46.560 it sounds like a lot of

00:40:47.560 money, right?

00:40:48.240 But when Alberta sends

00:40:49.760 $20 billion, some say

00:40:51.720 $40 billion, depending

00:40:52.740 on transfers to Ottawa,

00:40:54.340 all right, so instead

00:40:55.280 we're sending $19,900,000,000

00:40:58.220 or whatever dollars we

00:40:59.300 have to have to play with

00:40:59.940 and you have your own

00:41:00.820 police force accountable

00:41:01.620 to you, well, there's

00:41:03.420 value in that.

00:41:04.900 And with the military,

00:41:06.480 if we had a regular

00:41:08.100 force, say, for example,

00:41:09.200 of 10,000, Canadians,

00:41:11.580 Canada has 67,000 troops

00:41:13.920 across the entire

00:41:14.520 country, that would cost

00:41:15.940 us in terms of payroll

00:41:17.020 about a billion dollars.

00:41:18.600 Well, there you go.

00:41:19.600 For $18.9 billion

00:41:21.520 surplus now, we've used

00:41:22.900 $1.1 billion, we have

00:41:25.120 our own police and our

00:41:25.860 own military.

00:41:26.980 Well, and I'd say it

00:41:27.680 would even be less than

00:41:28.540 that in a lot of ways

00:41:29.380 because the Canadian

00:41:30.620 Armed Forces are paid

00:41:31.660 in part by federal income

00:41:32.800 tax that Albertans are

00:41:33.780 paying, which if we're to

00:41:35.100 follow this to its

00:41:35.900 logical end and Alberta's

00:41:36.980 not paying that, that

00:41:38.260 money would be in the

00:41:39.280 Alberta Treasury.

00:41:39.980 And I don't want to at

00:41:42.260 all be accused of

00:41:44.060 comparing Canada to

00:41:45.180 China and Alberta to

00:41:46.240 Hong Kong, but I do

00:41:47.760 think that the one

00:41:48.680 thing that is

00:41:49.760 interesting in this

00:41:50.540 dialogue is that Hong

00:41:51.960 Kong and the people of

00:41:53.420 Hong Kong have

00:41:54.020 certainly seen what

00:41:54.900 happens when your law

00:41:56.580 enforcement body is not

00:41:57.680 really in your domestic

00:41:58.680 control.

00:41:59.440 And again, I don't see

00:42:01.160 the dynamic as being

00:42:02.180 the same here, but when

00:42:03.660 we do have an

00:42:04.260 independence discussion

00:42:05.180 and we do have a

00:42:05.920 sovereignty discussion

00:42:07.200 and to some, I would

00:42:08.300 say, a sovereignty

00:42:08.860 crisis, having a

00:42:10.800 national police force

00:42:12.240 that is not within your

00:42:14.600 government's control can

00:42:16.760 only be a recipe for

00:42:18.040 trouble.

00:42:19.220 Yeah, well, I've been

00:42:20.100 to Hong Kong and I've

00:42:21.000 been harassed by, you

00:42:22.420 know, the mainlander

00:42:23.300 police or what they've

00:42:24.480 done to infuse that

00:42:25.980 situation.

00:42:26.540 I remember I was there,

00:42:27.580 I was told, for example,

00:42:29.400 that my hotel room was

00:42:30.380 no longer available to me

00:42:31.520 because I was there for

00:42:32.120 a Falun Gong human

00:42:33.760 rights event.

00:42:34.900 And it turns out my

00:42:36.400 room key still worked

00:42:37.240 and everything else, but

00:42:37.880 the hotel was threatened

00:42:38.860 if they didn't shut us

00:42:39.900 out and get rid of us.

00:42:40.900 You know, the incredible,

00:42:43.500 you know, scare tactics

00:42:45.780 that go on in Hong Kong

00:42:46.600 and I saw that years ago.

00:42:48.340 But yeah, I, you know,

00:42:49.740 if we get out of a

00:42:50.720 contract with the RCMP, I

00:42:52.000 even think about it from

00:42:52.680 the perspective of the

00:42:54.240 police officers.

00:42:55.920 You know, right now

00:42:57.240 there's the whole, you

00:42:58.340 know, official bilingualism.

00:42:59.860 How many guys, gals in

00:43:01.340 Alberta, you know, speak

00:43:02.540 French would have to learn

00:43:03.760 that to become a part of

00:43:04.800 the RCMP, et cetera.

00:43:06.860 They get to stay closer

00:43:08.040 to home, which means you

00:43:09.380 better understand the

00:43:10.380 crime scenario, et cetera,

00:43:11.660 and the players.

00:43:13.460 You know, another factor

00:43:14.760 is the RCMP is engaged in

00:43:16.360 a tremendous amount of

00:43:17.660 social engineering.

00:43:19.180 Like now, for example,

00:43:20.460 in the RCMP, if you're

00:43:21.480 a white male, in order to

00:43:22.960 get past the first

00:43:23.900 tranche of tests, you

00:43:25.420 have to have 85%.

00:43:26.340 If you're a female, 70%.

00:43:28.920 If you're anything

00:43:30.320 Aboriginal gender-wise,

00:43:31.860 you know, it's 50%.

00:43:32.800 We should be hiring the

00:43:34.840 best people for the job.

00:43:36.180 None of this, you know,

00:43:37.360 social engineering types of

00:43:38.380 stuff.

00:43:38.660 So there's all sorts of

00:43:39.940 reasons why, you know,

00:43:42.360 I think it makes sense for

00:43:43.360 us to go a provincial

00:43:44.420 route.

00:43:45.620 You know, in the High River

00:43:46.820 scenario, you know, one of

00:43:49.060 the things that happened

00:43:49.880 there was, I first off

00:43:52.260 asked a question when I got

00:43:53.100 the talking points from the

00:43:54.000 Prime Minister's office,

00:43:55.020 and I thought, well, who

00:43:56.020 the hell ordered this?

00:43:57.640 Did we, did the federal

00:43:59.040 government give the

00:44:00.120 authorization?

00:44:00.500 Because that was, just for

00:44:01.500 people not familiar, that

00:44:02.520 was a case of RCMP

00:44:03.680 officers going into

00:44:04.600 people's homes, stealing

00:44:05.500 their guns under the

00:44:06.800 guise of, quote-unquote,

00:44:07.760 protecting them.

00:44:08.400 Correct.

00:44:08.880 Without warrants, you

00:44:10.140 know, illegally, right,

00:44:12.020 without sanction of law.

00:44:14.040 And so, anyhow, I asked

00:44:16.340 questions to the Prime

00:44:17.100 Minister's office, and we

00:44:17.920 got questions, we got

00:44:18.620 answers back within a half

00:44:19.660 hour saying, no, we

00:44:20.720 didn't authorize it.

00:44:22.140 Okay.

00:44:22.740 So that's troubling, okay,

00:44:24.640 because normally people

00:44:25.480 would expect that the RCMP

00:44:26.280 is busting indoors, taking

00:44:27.200 guns.

00:44:27.820 The Fed signed off on it,

00:44:29.120 right?

00:44:29.480 Well, in this case, we

00:44:30.220 didn't, but we had a

00:44:31.260 couple ministers in the

00:44:32.200 province of Alberta who

00:44:33.440 improperly gave instruction

00:44:35.580 to do so.

00:44:36.160 You mean provincial

00:44:36.660 ministers?

00:44:37.080 Yeah.

00:44:37.660 Yeah.

00:44:37.980 So doesn't that work

00:44:40.340 against the point you're

00:44:41.260 making, though?

00:44:41.820 Yeah.

00:44:41.840 No, I get it.

00:44:42.320 That if there was an

00:44:42.840 Alberta police force, bad

00:44:44.380 decisions can still be made.

00:44:45.220 Yeah, you're right.

00:44:46.500 Bad decisions can still be

00:44:47.580 made, but the problem in

00:44:48.660 the previous scenario was

00:44:49.840 that people assumed that

00:44:52.440 the instruction came from

00:44:53.500 the federal government.

00:44:54.080 Absolutely.

00:44:54.780 Okay.

00:44:55.320 So if it's an Alberta

00:44:56.860 provincial police force,

00:44:58.080 there's no assumption

00:44:58.860 there.

00:44:59.140 There's no muddying of the

00:45:00.060 waters, right?

00:45:01.100 The premier, or in this

00:45:03.020 case, would have been

00:45:03.460 Alison Redford, or a

00:45:04.960 minister like Doug

00:45:05.860 Griffiths or Jonathan

00:45:08.060 Dennis would be held

00:45:09.200 responsible for that.

00:45:10.560 As it was, the thing got

00:45:12.220 brushed under the rug,

00:45:13.900 obfuscation, there were

00:45:15.380 some early retirement

00:45:16.880 packages for some of the

00:45:17.880 RCMP that were involved

00:45:18.920 with senior officers, et

00:45:20.080 cetera, and it just kind of

00:45:21.060 went away.

00:45:21.480 Let's use another example

00:45:23.020 because this one's really

00:45:24.720 in terms of provincial

00:45:25.620 federal, you know, conflict.

00:45:28.480 You had that Polish

00:45:29.800 immigrant who was tasered

00:45:32.300 to death in the airport

00:45:34.280 in Vancouver.

00:45:36.180 Okay.

00:45:36.520 BC asked twice for an

00:45:39.180 inquiry into his death.

00:45:41.160 Okay.

00:45:41.380 And twice the federal

00:45:42.500 government, which controls

00:45:43.980 the RCMP, right, said no.

00:45:46.860 So that's an example where,

00:45:48.980 yeah, if you want to look

00:45:50.420 into something and you've

00:45:51.720 got the feds saying, no,

00:45:52.760 we don't care about that,

00:45:53.560 we're going to block that,

00:45:54.560 you know, you get rid of

00:45:55.660 that.

00:45:56.740 I think there is value to

00:45:58.360 it.

00:45:59.860 I, you know, when it comes

00:46:01.540 to, you know, say, for

00:46:02.680 example, what Trudeau is

00:46:03.500 doing now with 1,500 types

00:46:05.640 of varieties of firearms

00:46:07.060 that by order and council

00:46:08.460 he's going to say are now

00:46:09.900 illegal, they were legal

00:46:10.960 before, and, you know, the

00:46:13.840 RCMP is the federal force

00:46:15.420 that can be, you know, sent

00:46:17.040 to your house to

00:46:17.760 investigate whether or not

00:46:18.700 you've got these, what

00:46:19.480 you've done with them.

00:46:20.260 Well, and the RCMP has

00:46:21.460 also been the beneficiary

00:46:22.580 of an outsourcing of the

00:46:23.860 classifications.

00:46:24.940 So they now have been

00:46:26.700 granted a legislative

00:46:27.820 mandate effectively that

00:46:29.060 they don't actually have.

00:46:30.260 Yeah.

00:46:30.660 And I've been a big

00:46:31.520 advocate of having a chief

00:46:32.840 firearms officer in the

00:46:33.860 province of Alberta that

00:46:34.600 is elected by license

00:46:37.000 owners in the province of

00:46:38.000 Alberta.

00:46:38.280 So if you have a gun

00:46:38.960 license in the province

00:46:39.800 of Alberta, you should be

00:46:41.200 able to elect who your

00:46:42.560 chief firearms officer is.

00:46:43.740 And that means that you're

00:46:44.740 probably not going to have

00:46:45.480 a chief firearms officer

00:46:46.200 who's shutting down gun

00:46:48.880 ranges that have been

00:46:49.580 around for decades because

00:46:51.360 of some, you know, busy

00:46:52.500 body complaining and coming

00:46:53.760 by and saying, oh, what's

00:46:54.740 what's the status with your

00:46:55.680 berm and, you know, this

00:46:56.980 type of thing.

00:46:57.760 And as well, not giving

00:46:59.540 authorization for a police

00:47:00.960 force to say, oh, you know,

00:47:02.360 you're on this registry or

00:47:03.820 this registry that doesn't

00:47:04.720 exist anymore.

00:47:05.920 And, you know, we're going

00:47:07.460 to start snooping around and

00:47:08.640 looking through the records

00:47:09.400 of the gun dealers in town.

00:47:10.720 And, oh, by the way, you

00:47:11.940 have something on this order

00:47:13.320 and council BS list that

00:47:14.860 the prime minister produced

00:47:15.900 to cough it up, buddy.

00:47:17.500 You know, we don't need

00:47:18.380 that.

00:47:19.180 So when we talk about, I

00:47:20.380 mean, just the policing

00:47:21.320 aspect, repatriating

00:47:22.640 Alberta's police to a new

00:47:24.300 provincial force, that's

00:47:26.160 something that, in your

00:47:26.880 view, could and should be

00:47:28.180 done regardless of, you

00:47:30.540 know, if Alberta's in or

00:47:31.380 out of Confederation.

00:47:32.220 Absolutely.

00:47:32.960 And you think it could be

00:47:33.760 done relatively quickly.

00:47:35.440 Yeah.

00:47:35.700 Well, according to the

00:47:37.520 actual contract we have,

00:47:39.640 Article 3.3, we have to

00:47:42.860 give notice by March 31st

00:47:44.340 of a year and then two

00:47:45.780 years hence.

00:47:46.600 So in our case, you know,

00:47:48.540 March 31st of next year,

00:47:50.000 by then we would give

00:47:50.820 notice and then two years

00:47:52.160 hence we would be out of

00:47:53.060 the contract.

00:47:53.920 However, historically, when

00:47:55.400 the federal government

00:47:56.220 wanted to get out of

00:47:57.320 policing in the First

00:47:58.240 World War because it was

00:47:58.920 costing them money and

00:47:59.740 they wanted to save

00:48:00.200 money, put it toward the

00:48:01.120 war effort over in Europe,

00:48:02.900 what they did is within a

00:48:04.920 year, the federal

00:48:06.020 government around the time

00:48:06.840 of the budget basically

00:48:07.720 said, what can you guys do

00:48:09.000 about this?

00:48:09.700 And by the time of the

00:48:10.440 next federal budget, Alberta

00:48:11.760 already had a provincial

00:48:12.480 police force and it was

00:48:13.200 done, so within a year.

00:48:15.360 So where do you see the

00:48:16.800 big sticking points truly

00:48:18.360 being?

00:48:18.900 Because it sounds like

00:48:19.840 Alberta could have its

00:48:20.840 own pension plan, Alberta

00:48:22.000 could have its own

00:48:22.800 police force, Alberta

00:48:24.020 could have its own

00:48:24.660 revenue agency, and a lot

00:48:26.460 of these things are not

00:48:27.540 new ideas.

00:48:28.560 They've been proposed

00:48:29.260 going back to the

00:48:30.000 firewall letter almost

00:48:30.880 20 years ago, they've

00:48:31.860 been proposed by MPs

00:48:33.260 and MLAs.

00:48:34.460 I mean, why has there

00:48:36.200 not been traction on this?

00:48:37.440 I think you've had a lot

00:48:38.500 of people that just

00:48:40.520 haven't had the political

00:48:41.400 will, it's inertia.

00:48:43.980 You know, you've had

00:48:44.900 people who, and some

00:48:46.720 of them are, let's face

00:48:47.640 it, let's talk about

00:48:49.620 Jason Kenney for a

00:48:50.360 second, okay?

00:48:51.620 You know, some people

00:48:52.960 have sugarplum fairies

00:48:54.080 dance in their head about

00:48:55.320 how someday they want to

00:48:56.200 be prime minister.

00:48:57.500 Well, what Alberta wants

00:48:58.680 right now is a Rennie

00:48:59.500 Levesque of Alberta.

00:49:00.900 We don't want Captain

00:49:01.760 Canada.

00:49:02.800 We're tired of that,

00:49:04.280 right?

00:49:04.920 We've been through

00:49:05.660 enough.

00:49:06.380 Thank you very much.

00:49:07.260 We don't need Captain

00:49:08.320 Canada.

00:49:08.920 We want somebody who's

00:49:09.740 Alberta first, looking

00:49:10.960 after us.

00:49:12.280 Not capitulating to

00:49:14.020 Trudeau over 1,500, you

00:49:16.440 know, gun restrictions,

00:49:18.720 not kicking our money over

00:49:20.160 to Ottawa all the time,

00:49:21.220 et cetera, enough.

00:49:22.580 So, you know, we've had a

00:49:24.100 bunch of premiers in the

00:49:25.640 past.

00:49:26.360 I'll give you an example.

00:49:27.400 Ralph Klein.

00:49:28.500 When I was an early

00:49:29.780 reform MP back in my

00:49:31.440 first term, Paul Martin

00:49:33.000 wanted to raise the

00:49:33.660 pension contributions from

00:49:34.660 5.5 to 9.9% because it

00:49:37.120 was an unfunded liability

00:49:38.180 and the costs were going

00:49:39.260 up and the population was

00:49:40.320 getting older and all this

00:49:41.660 stuff.

00:49:42.660 Mike Harris, God bless him,

00:49:44.940 said, no, Ontario is not

00:49:46.240 part of that.

00:49:47.180 Quebec, which has had their

00:49:48.160 own pension plan for

00:49:48.860 decades, has said, no,

00:49:49.980 we're not part of that.

00:49:51.120 So I and Diana Blonsi went

00:49:53.140 to Ralph Klein, to the

00:49:54.320 Alberta government, and

00:49:55.080 said, all you need is one

00:49:56.600 more province to say out

00:49:57.560 and it's done.

00:49:58.840 Ralph wouldn't do it.

00:50:00.400 He was okay with our

00:50:01.820 contribution rates going

00:50:02.740 from 5.5 to 9.9.

00:50:05.160 Maybe because he had a

00:50:06.280 personal disagreement with

00:50:07.140 Preston Manning.

00:50:08.680 Maybe because he felt it

00:50:09.940 was patriotic, I don't

00:50:10.920 know.

00:50:11.540 But Alberta at that time

00:50:13.020 had a lower unemployment

00:50:15.060 rate.

00:50:15.620 We had a younger

00:50:16.180 demographic, which is still

00:50:17.300 the case.

00:50:18.900 And we would have paid

00:50:20.200 half the amount of money

00:50:21.560 and had a better pension

00:50:23.220 than what the CPP could

00:50:25.020 offer us.

00:50:25.720 And that's with having the

00:50:26.760 Ponzi scheme account the

00:50:28.020 way it is.

00:50:28.680 If we had individualized

00:50:30.000 accounts, like you have in

00:50:31.340 Chile, for example, which

00:50:32.680 Milton Friedman advocated,

00:50:34.760 wow, how much better would

00:50:36.760 we be?

00:50:37.700 You know, if you ask the

00:50:38.780 average Canadian now, you

00:50:40.040 say, well, what did you put

00:50:40.820 into CPP last year?

00:50:42.320 What do you have in

00:50:43.060 aggregate?

00:50:43.800 What was your return on

00:50:44.620 investment?

00:50:45.360 Smart people probably don't

00:50:46.660 know.

00:50:47.360 But if you go to Santiago,

00:50:48.660 Chile, you walk down the

00:50:49.480 street, they know what's in

00:50:51.380 there.

00:50:52.480 And just to interject there,

00:50:54.180 no one would ever accept,

00:50:56.140 if they worked for a company

00:50:57.340 that had a corporate pension

00:50:58.880 plan, no one would ever

00:50:59.780 accept the accounting of

00:51:01.080 that being done the way it

00:51:02.140 is for the federal

00:51:02.700 government.

00:51:03.580 I mean, I like getting my

00:51:04.780 statements when I work for a

00:51:05.840 company that had a pension

00:51:06.580 plan, and I know how much is

00:51:07.720 in there.

00:51:08.160 And I mean, no one would ever

00:51:09.200 fly for a company saying,

00:51:10.440 oh, yeah, just give us this

00:51:11.600 and we'll give it to you out of

00:51:13.140 the pool when it's time.

00:51:13.900 And for people who ask all these

00:51:15.900 persnickety little questions,

00:51:17.120 oh, what about this pension and

00:51:18.300 what about the parks and what

00:51:19.200 about the, you know, at the end

00:51:20.940 of the day, here's how it cuts

00:51:22.400 down real simple.

00:51:23.600 Who would you rather have

00:51:24.640 accountable for paying the bill,

00:51:26.360 Alberta or Ottawa?

00:51:28.060 Who's got the capacity?

00:51:29.440 I would far rather have Alberta in

00:51:30.980 charge of a pension system than

00:51:32.500 Ottawa, because who's more

00:51:33.760 fiscally solvent, right?

00:51:35.280 Who's got the oil?

00:51:36.180 Who's got the coal?

00:51:38.940 You know, Alberta.

00:51:40.500 So for all those people who

00:51:41.960 worry about this, you know, if,

00:51:42.980 if I have a friend of mine,

00:51:44.120 for example, lives down in

00:51:44.940 Arizona, he's collecting a

00:51:46.660 Canadian federal pension.

00:51:48.260 OK, no problems, no issues.

00:51:50.340 OK, but for the for the for the

00:51:52.400 for the people who are 35 and

00:51:54.080 younger, right, you say, OK,

00:51:55.560 we're going to do a new thing.

00:51:57.140 You know, Alberta is going to

00:51:58.060 have a pension system, et cetera.

00:51:59.360 This is how it's going to work,

00:52:00.360 et cetera.

00:52:00.920 I like the idea of a super RRSP

00:52:02.980 where three percent of your

00:52:04.360 salary, you know, maybe your

00:52:06.000 employer matches it for six

00:52:07.140 percent.

00:52:07.740 OK, get set aside in this thing.

00:52:09.660 You can draw on it for your

00:52:11.200 first house if you become an

00:52:12.900 unemployed, you know, obviously

00:52:14.820 if you retire, you know, these

00:52:17.040 types of things.

00:52:17.920 And I think we would be way

00:52:19.580 better off under a system like

00:52:21.000 that, you know, because whether

00:52:21.980 you're janitor or president of

00:52:23.240 something, that's what you're

00:52:25.000 getting.

00:52:25.460 And, you know, something's

00:52:26.460 really there and it's not this

00:52:27.980 government run Ponzi scene.

00:52:30.520 Politicians make terrible

00:52:31.440 bankers.

00:52:32.260 It's the argument I've always had

00:52:33.180 about the Alberta Heritage

00:52:34.340 Savings Trust Fund because it

00:52:35.860 was used to buy the votes from

00:52:37.220 Atlantic Canada with the

00:52:38.600 constitutional negotiations for,

00:52:40.180 you know, below market rates.

00:52:41.940 Politicians don't make good

00:52:43.100 bankers.

00:52:43.760 I trust you with your money

00:52:44.840 more than politicians.

00:52:46.100 Well, thank you very much for

00:52:47.020 that.

00:52:47.800 It was good to have you in

00:52:48.820 politics and great to have you

00:52:49.900 sitting down with me now.

00:52:51.040 Rob Anderson.

00:52:51.480 Good chatting.

00:52:51.940 Thank you, sir.

00:52:52.700 Now, I did a couple of other

00:52:53.920 interviews at the conference

00:52:55.180 last weekend that we'll have

00:52:56.340 coming out in future episodes

00:52:57.860 of the show, but they don't fit

00:52:59.000 into that subject of Western

00:53:01.140 alienation as clearly as the

00:53:02.880 ones we've done in these two

00:53:04.520 parts have.

00:53:05.160 I hope you've taken something

00:53:06.260 out of this.

00:53:07.240 Certainly it's a dialogue that I

00:53:08.800 don't want to die down.

00:53:10.040 It's one that is going to be an

00:53:12.300 issue and it's going to put some

00:53:14.060 change forward, but what that

00:53:16.320 looks like still stands to be

00:53:17.800 seen.

00:53:18.360 Is the change going to be Alberta

00:53:20.260 leaving Confederation?

00:53:21.560 Is the change going to be

00:53:22.760 discontent in the West?

00:53:24.320 Is the change just going to be

00:53:25.840 people in the West voting a

00:53:27.840 different way because they are

00:53:29.260 going to be voting along lines of

00:53:31.100 securing a better deal rather than

00:53:33.380 traditional left-right grounds?

00:53:35.040 I don't quite know, but what I do

00:53:37.080 know as we see from the

00:53:38.200 anniversary of the firewall

00:53:39.360 letter, as we see from the

00:53:41.380 mounting concerns and the fair

00:53:43.060 deal panel meetings, the anger

00:53:45.200 is not subsiding.

00:53:46.800 The anger is not going away.

00:53:49.000 And that means that it has to go

00:53:50.480 somewhere and it has to be

00:53:52.000 channeled somewhere.

00:53:53.160 And look, the 2023 election in

00:53:55.020 Alberta is a long way away.

00:53:56.740 The 2023 federal election, if

00:53:59.000 that's when it is, is a long way

00:54:00.740 away, although the federal election

00:54:02.220 could be much, much sooner given a

00:54:04.360 minority parliament.

00:54:05.320 So the question that a lot of

00:54:07.120 people have is if Justin Trudeau

00:54:08.920 were to lose, if a conservative who

00:54:10.600 is a big supporter of the West

00:54:12.180 were to get in, would that be

00:54:13.900 enough?

00:54:14.720 I don't think it would because,

00:54:16.700 well, there is a left-right divide

00:54:18.260 here.

00:54:18.740 It's not cleanly about political

00:54:20.860 ideology.

00:54:21.900 In a lot of cases, it is entirely

00:54:23.680 about Alberta getting, we'll use that

00:54:26.680 term again, a fair deal or at the

00:54:28.780 very least a fairer deal.

00:54:30.680 So unless someone is prepared to come

00:54:32.380 in and do the heavy lifting on this

00:54:34.980 file, even a new conservative prime

00:54:37.440 minister, say, wouldn't be enough on

00:54:40.020 its own.

00:54:41.300 And I say on its own.

00:54:42.400 There's not a single member of the

00:54:44.340 conservative leadership race right

00:54:45.820 now that is from the West.

00:54:47.720 There are conservative MPs from the

00:54:49.140 West.

00:54:49.640 So obviously elevating one of them to a

00:54:52.180 senior position would be a step in

00:54:54.420 the right direction.

00:54:55.540 But no one that is coming who innately

00:54:57.980 understands these concerns is in the

00:55:00.760 race.

00:55:01.140 So even in the conservative party, a

00:55:03.680 lot of people in the West are saying

00:55:04.980 they're not represented.

00:55:06.160 And that's something to keep an eye on

00:55:07.360 as well.

00:55:08.120 My thanks to all of you who sat down

00:55:10.000 for this series.

00:55:10.920 And of course, all of you who watched

00:55:12.140 it or listened to it.

00:55:13.320 We'll be back next week with more of

00:55:15.520 The Andrew Lawton Show here on True

00:55:17.080 North.

00:55:17.440 Thank you.

00:55:17.940 God bless and good day.

00:55:19.540 Thanks for listening to The Andrew

00:55:20.740 Lawton Show.

00:55:21.580 Support the program by donating to

00:55:23.200 True North at www.tnc.news.

00:55:30.760 www.tnc.news.co.uk

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00:55:51.100 www.tnc.news.co.uk

Juno News - July 23, 2020

The West Wants Out： Part 2

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