Juno News - February 06, 2020Trans Politics and Free Speech (feat. Barbara Kay)
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Summary
Coming up, Barbara Kay and I talk about transgender research, free speech, and academic inquiry in the wake of a controversial event at McGill University involving controversial researcher Dr. Kenneth Zucker, who was invited to speak about gender dysphoria.
Transcript
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This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
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Coming up, Barbara Kay and I talk about transgender research, free speech, and academic inquiry.
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Hey, welcome to another edition of the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
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Great to have you tuned into Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
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Of course, irreverent is very similar to irrelevant.
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So I had someone on YouTube last week ask me if I was calling myself Canada's Most Irrelevant Talk Show.
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No, a couple of letters off, but very important letters. That's a different show.
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I won't give you suggestions, but there are several shows that might fit the bill of being Canada's Most Irrelevant.
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In any case, it's good to have you tuned into the show today.
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I want to talk about free speech in the context of a debate that happened, or not even a debate,
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an event that happened at McGill University a couple of weeks ago.
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And the debate was really around whether this event should be allowed to happen,
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as is so often the case when it comes to any sort of remotely contentious subject matter in 2020.
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I mean, this has been going on since 2019, 2018, 2017, and so on and so forth back.
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But the dialogue in this case was going to be a talk by Dr. Kenneth Zucker,
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someone who, despite being accused of conversion therapy,
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is actually a researcher who advocates a wait-and-see approach
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before going through irreparable procedures to affirm a transgender person's believed gender.
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And this is just a very condensed way of describing a backstory
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that I know we'll talk to Barbara Kay about in just a moment.
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But Kenneth Zucker was going to be speaking at McGill University.
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Trans activists were not happy about this talk, but it didn't get shut down.
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And I think there's a lesson in this that we can learn a bit about.
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Barbara Kay covered it through the planning process and also throughout the event itself
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and wrote a piece in the Post Millennial about it.
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But the hopefulness, I guess, for this year and what it may bring to the cancel culture wars
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came in a column she wrote that we'll talk about momentarily.
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That is, Will 2020 Be the Year of Reason in the Cancel Culture Wars?
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Author and columnist Barbara Kay joins me on the line now.
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Barbara, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on today.
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Now, I thought this was a fantastic piece for a couple of reasons.
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I think, number one, you went through the subject matter of Ken Zucker and free speech
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and the importance of having a dialogue on gender.
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But you also brought the rare dose of good news on these issues that we don't often hear
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And I was wondering if you could tell me why this story is one that gave you a little bit
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Well, the good news aspect of it was very welcomed.
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He thought at first, oh, no, this is going to be just, you know, another cancel culture piece.
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The good news was that the people in charge of this event, and this is, this is, we're
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talking now about Dr. Kenneth Zucker, who is a leading international expert on gender dysphoria.
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And until a few years ago, he had been a longtime director of the gender identity clinic at
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And then his approach to treating children with gender dysphoria has now become a subject
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of controversy in the trans community because he treats children holistically.
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He calls his approach developmentally informed therapy or developmentally informed psychotherapy.
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And that means when a child presents as gender dysphoric, he doesn't just say, okay, you're a boy
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or you're a girl, he says, well, let's talk about what life is like for you.
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Otherwise, let's talk about your family dynamic.
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Let's talk about, you know, have you had previous referrals for anxiety or depression or, you
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And very often it turns out that gender dysphoria is not the child's primary problem.
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Uh, so he, uh, because many of his patients did end up, uh, returning to their natal sex as
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their preferred identification, um, he became known as somebody who was, uh, uh, treating
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children with what is falsely called conversion therapy.
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Uh, so they came after him, he got fired from CAMH and, uh, ever since he's been a sort of focal
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point for controversy, uh, even though his research is probably the most cited of anywhere, you
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know, anyone in the world, he's a scientist, a researcher, a clinician.
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So that's the background on Dr. Zucker and, um, uh, uh, uh, a professor in the psychiatry
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department wanted to invite him to speak and immediately, and of course knew.
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Um, and there is, um, they have some divisions in the psychiatry department.
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The head of the, uh, division is a professor Samuel Visier, and he believes that Dr. Zucker's
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research is well worth sharing, but he also knew it would be controversial.
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So the reason it didn't blow up, I think is that Dr.
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Uh, professor Visier made a concerted effort to reach out to, uh, stakeholder groups in the
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trans community, like queer McGill and other, uh, other activist groups, uh, who are LGBT
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He said, this is going to be, you know, uh, very, it's about research.
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It's going to be a very safe and open environment.
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I mean, he really reached out and as a result, although there was pushback and there was
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resistance to it, uh, it took the form of, you know, sending letters to the administration.
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We wish it would be canceled, but you know, nobody took to the streets or, um, nobody threatened
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to, uh, to ring alarms or to, to, to have a mass protest.
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There were no protesters, uh, people from the LGBT community did come, uh, people, researchers
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who actually opposed Dr. Zucker's approach did come.
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Uh, I would say it was an extremely successful evening.
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Uh, and it did have an extended Q and a, I did actually write, I did a big write up of it
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for the post-millennial, uh, a 3000 word write up of it, um, following the event.
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So it was hopeful in, in, in the respect that something very controversial did go forward
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And the part that I mentioned in the column that I thought was really disheartening and
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I understood it entirely and would view it the same way is that when you first receive
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this invitation, you put it in your calendar with a question mark.
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So right out of the gate, no other information.
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The expectation is there's a good chance this isn't going to happen.
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And I don't know when it became that that was the more likely presumption, but, but it has
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And, you know, I would say on the flip side of that, it used to be that the culture warrior
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in me would almost welcome things getting shut down years ago because I thought, okay, it's
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Now I'm at the point and have been for quite a while where I want to have the dialogues.
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I want to have the debates and it gets very tiring.
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The fire alarm routine, the let's cancel it, the D platform, it gets very tiring.
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And this was one where I would have been right in alignment with you that, oh, there's no
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Well, I, I was pleased, very pleased to be proven wrong on this.
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And I'm, by the way, I, I'm entirely, uh, aligned with you, uh, in that a couple of
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years ago too, I was much more worried about it and now I'm just plain discouraged and depressed
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about it, uh, so this really was a bright light, but just as the fact that it went forward
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was good news, I have to say that there's a little bad news attached to it in one sense.
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And that is that the stakeholder groups that were most actively, uh, against this going
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Um, I think they didn't really have time to gather their, um, how shall I say, uh, to mount
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what would be, uh, a really organized, uh, protest.
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And I don't mean protest in the sense of, uh, fire alarms.
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I mean, they, I, I, their immediate, their response was, okay, I guess this is going forward.
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The administration absolutely didn't have any qualms about it at all.
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I mean, after all, look, we're talking about, we're talking about a very highly accredited,
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You can't, you can't come and say, well, this is some flake or this, this is a guy who's known
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He's, he's an honest, objective researcher who has had success clinically, uh, in dealing
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He, he does endorse, uh, transitioning, um, if it's clear after going through a period of
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therapy that this is the right thing for that person.
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Uh, so it's not like he's, he's, um, some kind of a, a hate figure, not at all.
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So it did go forward, but, um, I have seen correspondence between the, some of these groups and Professor
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And my impression is that they are going to, next time this comes up, that there will be
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some, some protocol in place that will insist on representation from the trans community.
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They have a, uh, a kind of mantra, nothing about us without us.
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In other words, nobody should be allowed to present, um, a lecture or a talk without input
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or without actual representation, uh, during the program.
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As if there was always going to be two sides and one is going to be anti-trans and one is
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As if every single, um, uh, academic presentation was in fact, uh, assumed to be a political statement.
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Uh, this I find very unfortunate because, um, if, if you must, if, if every single, um, uh, psychological
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difficulty or, you know, disorder or this form of dysphoria, uh, or anything that is on the
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spectrum of, of, um, what we would think of as disorders.
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Uh, but if you prefer a better term than fine, but if every time somebody, an academic in
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the field is going to make a presentation, um, and is going to need input from that group,
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It's not, that's not scientific, um, because that, that is actually, uh, saying, well, science
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is so politicized and I'm not saying that science never has been politicized.
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It often, one of the points that one of the, um, people made in the Q and A was science has
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always been tinged with social values and that is true.
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Uh, the reason that it took a very long time for homosexuality to be removed from the list
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of pathologies is because of a social value, not a medical, not a medical assessment.
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Yeah, now I would take from that, that it makes it all the more important to hear from
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And some people would, in response to that instead say, uh, you know what?
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We shouldn't hear from these different perspectives.
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Well, no, but they're, I think what they, they would, they would, they're more moderate
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And I think they would, what, what they would say is, well, yes, have your, invite your scientists,
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but you're not, that person should not have the whole floor.
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They shouldn't have the whole evening to themselves.
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Uh, a question and answer period is not sufficient, um, to, uh, give balance to the evening.
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So if you're going to plan something in the future, I think we're going to have a protocol
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in place that, you know, but I had a discussion with Dr. Zucker about this after the presentation
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And I, I walked down the hill with him from the neuro, the Montreal Neurological Institute
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He had to catch a plane and I was like, well, if that were the case that every single, uh,
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condition that, that, that was being discussed by a researcher had to have representation from
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the actual group, then you couldn't get anybody giving a presentation, say on, uh, autism spectrum
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disorder, unless you had a group of autistic people there or a representation from the autistic
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And I, I don't think there really is such a thing as a trans community.
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There's a community of trans activists, uh, but normal, ordinary transgender people, they,
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They don't spend their 90% of their time meeting, you know, in committee meetings and, and, and,
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uh, hanging out, um, in, in, in, you know, neighborhood meeting places to discuss, you know,
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I mean, that's the problem with any of these identity politics discussions is that very
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That's co-opted by an organization or a network of activists that doesn't necessarily speak
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for the average person in that group, whether it's a racial group, a religious group, a trans
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group, sexual orientation, whatever the case may be.
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And you know, the problem, if you're going to demand that representation there is that
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you can keep drilling down further and further and further.
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And eventually you have so many different groups and cross groups and concurrent groups.
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I mean, no matter how far you go, you're never going to be able to meet that if you decide
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And I see that's the logical extension of that way of thinking.
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And in this particular case, if you're talking about trans activist groups, they themselves
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are not pleased to give public forum space to detransitioners because that doesn't fit
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So this idea that when you talk about the human condition, when you talk about varieties
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of aberrations from the norm, then members of that group must be represented.
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This sort of turns academic research onto, I mean, academic research is not supposed to
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be fighting political battles all the time or any of the time.
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They're supposed to present their research and they should be given space for that.
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In the in the Q&A, by the way, one of the first speakers was a young woman who had transitioned
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So she was a detransitioner who had stopped taking testosterone and who made a case for more
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therapeutic intervention before allowing transition or at least hormonal transition.
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And she said and that that is the Zucker approach, is it not?
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So she was actually there to speak up on behalf of a more holistic approach.
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And immediately, in response to that statement, somebody across the room, it was a horseshoe arrangement,
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you know, like lecture halls are in institutions like this.
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And immediately, a trans man, a young trans man across the hall who, you know, was obviously
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a little bit agitated by the detransitioner speaking their truth.
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He said, oh, because the detransitioner had said I was I was getting quite suicidal because
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So this trans man said, well, I was suicidal because I needed to transition.
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But what I liked was the fact both had their say.
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Everybody listened very respectfully to both of them.
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And my first response to that mentally was to say, well, people say that they feel unsafe
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when they hear views that they disagree with or that that that they find offensive.
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Well, this this trans man, I think, found what the detransitioner young woman said.
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I don't know about offensive, but he found it agitating.
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He was he was, you know, wanted to speak his his own truth, which he did.
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And everybody listened to him very respectfully.
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There was no feeling that anybody felt unsafe or that, you know, it was it was a very civil
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and very comfortable evening for anybody who wanted to say anything.
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And I said to myself, well, look, this whole idea that you can't be safe hearing from somebody
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whose opinion makes you uncomfortable is ridiculous because I'm looking at people doing exactly
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And they're just going to have had their say at a forum in which this very necessary approach
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has to be discussed openly and nobody is stopping people who buy into the affirmation, the immediate
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affirmation approach from holding their seminars and their lectures without input from the Dr.
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So it seems very unfair to me that they should be.
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And I'm anticipating now, I don't know what's going to happen at McGill.
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I just have this strong feeling that the next step after this will be to insert protocols
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that may preclude Dr. Zucker having a repeat performance there or anyone else who does not espouse
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But I should say also that when we were walking down the hill and I we were talking about his
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approach and he was telling me about some of his interesting cases, obviously not by name.
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And I, you know, he treats children age three to 12.
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And I said, so I'm sure you keep the data on this.
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I said, I, I'm curious to know, uh, what percentage of your clients or your patients, um, end up
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after therapy, uh, reverting to or feeling comfortable in their natal sex.
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And he, without a beat being skipped said 88% and I was like, wow.
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And that was almost the last exchange we had before he had to grab a cab, you know, to,
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And I was like, I, I, I, my, my reaction was, I guess it's just as well, this didn't come
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up in the Q and a, because I think that would have caused a great deal of consternation and
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I think that saying that would have aroused, uh, so much, uh, intense discussion that that
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should be for another time, uh, because he was there to discuss his research, not to
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So it was just as well, it didn't come up, but I did include that in my post-millennial
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piece and it's, it's getting, you know, it's getting a lot of Twitter play.
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And you know, what's interesting here is there's that age old saying the fact that you can't
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choose your facts, like you can choose your opinions applies here.
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And ultimately people are going to try to shoehorn it into their political ideology if they don't
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like it and say, well, this just reinforces that he's doing conversion therapy and all
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of these other things, which we know is not true.
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But the fact that this dialogue happened, the fact that people that were very rattled by what
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the other had to say, were able to come together, both share in an open environment, you still
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have this concern that McGill would potentially put up roadblocks or activists would put up
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Whereas I would try to be an optimist here and say, how could we replicate this?
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How could we, was there a lesson to take out of this or a roadmap to take out of this,
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uh, to basically make it so something like this could go on in the future?
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Do you think it will just be an anomaly when all is said and done?
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And I, the only reason I say I'm, I'm concerned that, that further events of this type might
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be precluded is because I, I have seen evidence, um, that certain allies of the trans movement,
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uh, the, you know, uh, have said, uh, quite openly to Professor Vissier, uh, we're not, we're
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Um, and we have to, we have to work out, uh, I don't know if they use the word protocols,
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but we, we have to work out some kind of a, you know, uh, um, a plan d'action or whatever
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you want, uh, to make sure that, uh, trans, he didn't use the word activist, the one I'm
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thinking of, uh, that, that people in the trans community, whatever, feel represented,
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feel adequately represented if this is going to go forward again.
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So I, I think this, this kind of, um, uh, credo that you can't talk about gender dysphoria
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without representation from the community who have their own, uh, quite politicized idea
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because it's not scientifically based the, you know, these are their claims that affirmation
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is the necessary, um, approach to dealing with gender dysphoric children.
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And, and I say children advisedly, because if you're dealing with gender dysphoric adults,
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I think we're talking about a whole other, you know, uh, ball game here.
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So we're, we're mainly concerned with children.
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So this idea that if you don't affirm, and especially adolescents, we talked a lot, uh,
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one of the hot buttons in this field is what's called rapid onset gender dysphoria, a term that
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trans activists do not like, uh, I guess they would prefer late onset, uh, you know, Dr.
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Uh, but this is an area of concern because the numbers are escalating rapidly and there is
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evidence to suggest that it is something like a social contagion rather than based in, um,
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Uh, so this instant affirmation, which is what, you know, you can get, you can get hormone
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blockers prescribed, uh, after a 15 minute interview by some endocrinologists, um, in this country.
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And Dr. Zucker happened to mention, he's done a lot of collaboration with, uh, scientists
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in the Netherlands on this issue and they're, they're very deep into this issue.
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Uh, they've done many studies and, um, in, in the Netherlands, for example, if you're referred
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to a clinic for gender dysphoria, uh, they take quite a long time before you're actually
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It can be up to 18 months before you actually get prescribed, uh, hormones.
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And during that time, you have plenty of time to, uh, work through whatever other issues
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And, and so it's just not that instant affirmation here.
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Um, and that, that is really what it boils down to the dissension between people like Dr.
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Zucker and people who are allies of Dr. Zucker's approach like me and you, I guess.
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Uh, oh, we're asking for, we're not saying there's no such thing as gender dysphoria.
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We're not saying that, um, people with it should not have the right to have support, um, and
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Uh, we're not even saying that they shouldn't have the right to go on hormone blockers.
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All we're saying is, uh, that children should not be rushed into this.
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Um, that instant affirmation is not the way to go.
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It's, it's not, it's not, uh, what I would call a good quality care and, uh, it's not
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Um, and yet we're being told by trans activists that we're the ones that are, um, putting
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impediments in the way of people that, that, uh, need compassion, need support, uh, and all
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the rest, but I don't, I don't say, uh, that we are lacking compassion.
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I, I think that one has to put prudence and, and, and medical caution ahead of, um, uh, what
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they call compassion, which, which many of us call negligence.
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It seems as though Barbara, you're relying heavily on the scientific arguments for what
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Zucker and his peers are putting, putting forward here.
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But I wonder if that misses the, the point that's more important, rather, if that's more
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about the free speech side of this and the academic inquiry side of this, because there's
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There's a possibility that anyone positing a scientific theory is wrong.
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My belief, and I, I know this is yours from other conversation we've, other conversations
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we've had, is that you have to put all of these ideas forward to decide and to figure
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And that's why that moment that you shared of the detransitioning woman speaking up and
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the person who did transition speaking up is important.
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I mean, one of them says detransitioning, uh, helped her.
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These two are compatible with one each, one another, and they're compatible with what
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So I wonder though, if the scientific argument gets too in the weeds for people, because
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when Zucker mentions that 88% statistic, for example, instead of the fundamental question
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I fear that that will open the door to people starting to pounce on him even more and say,
00:28:41.120
Well, I think what people who are against his approach would say is, well, he can say
00:28:46.500
what he wants about them ending up being comfortable, but basically he's talked them
00:28:50.680
out of, you know, uh, something that they need.
00:28:54.120
And, uh, they, and they would say, well, uh, either the people coming to him are not really
00:29:01.940
Uh, like people that detect transition, they'll often say, oh, but they weren't really gender
00:29:06.600
Yeah, they, they, they weren't trans in the first place, so they don't count.
1.00
00:29:12.340
You know, if someone says they are trans, oh yes, affirm immediately.
0.99
00:29:15.520
But then 10 years later, when they've been on testosterone and everything else for all
00:29:19.260
those years and they say, no, I should not have been affirmed.
00:29:22.000
Uh, they would say, well, you know, that's, that's, uh, then you weren't really trans and
00:29:29.600
You know, that's, that's not on us, but it is on them because, uh, since you don't know,
00:29:34.800
and we do know study after study after study, I mean, we have to rely on, uh, science at
00:29:40.460
some point and if study after study in, in many different countries, uh, all come to the
00:29:45.320
same conclusion that after puberty, children who are presenting as gender dysphoric, uh, before
00:29:50.740
puberty, end up comfortable being, uh, you know, uh, identifying with their biological
00:29:59.240
sex, uh, we have to pay attention to that and we have to assume these are good faith.
00:30:05.840
It's replicated and that's part of the scientific method is replication, replication.
00:30:10.140
Whereas, um, many of the theories, the gender dysfluidity, uh, theories are based entirely
00:30:16.680
They admit that, um, there's no scientific studies.
00:30:20.180
It's proving that anyone is, you know, this idea that gender fluidity, all, all it is,
0.98
00:30:25.720
is observation and, and surmises and assumptions and.
00:30:33.140
I, I guess the point that I am more unsettled by and in what these activists do is that they
00:30:39.640
don't care about the science and they don't care about the free speech side of it.
00:30:44.820
And I guess it's a matter of which way is a more compelling, uh, direction or which way
00:30:52.040
And I'm not sure I know the answer to that yet.
00:30:54.200
Well, I mean, I think one of the, uh, I think, I think one protocol or one, uh, guideline for
00:31:01.300
university administrations should be, uh, look, uh, if somebody is accredited in a, in a,
00:31:08.360
uh, in a real discipline, I mean, psychiatry, you can say, oh, all psychiatry is bunk, but
00:31:18.600
There is actual literature, uh, and, and, and the scientific method is used for, for a lot
00:31:26.600
Um, so if somebody is highly accredited, he is the editor in chief of the, um, archives of
00:31:33.860
sexual behavior, which is the preeminent journal, peer reviewing journal in his field.
00:31:40.960
So if somebody is that accredited, you cannot say that he does not have the right to make
00:31:49.760
a presentation, um, via a department at a regular university like McGill on the grounds
00:31:57.820
that you are not happy with, uh, his approach or his, his, uh, uh, uh, his brand of.
00:32:11.820
And if you're not having a, have your own symposium, have your own voices.
00:32:15.440
I mean, this is the problem is that no one is saying they can't be heard.
00:32:19.840
And this is what makes me want to pull my hair out over this dialogue when it happens, if you
00:32:25.000
can even call it that is that someone else speaking does not threaten your right to speak.
00:32:31.720
And, and, and of course there are, there is the argument that, uh, people have a right
00:32:39.800
So, uh, yes, have your own symposium, have your own conference, have your own, whatever
00:32:46.220
Uh, you know, there, nobody is stopping the other side.
00:32:51.680
Nobody is deplatforming anybody on the other side.
00:32:54.760
Nobody is, uh, asking them to do anything except stop, stop cancelling or stop trying
00:33:03.100
to cancel those whose attitude or whose approach or perspective, uh, they don't like it's and,
00:33:13.760
In this case, the administration wasn't even, didn't even consider for one second, uh, cancelling,
00:33:19.360
even though they received numerous, um, demands for it.
00:33:23.740
And I did, I was in touch with the provost and, and asked if it had been a consideration.
00:33:31.040
Uh, so I think that was one of the reasons why there was no serious protest because the,
00:33:38.040
the administration hadn't even wavered for a second on it.
00:33:44.040
I'd love to see, I'd love to see this be a paradigm for, uh, the next time.
00:33:49.420
And you know what, I'm, I'm very grateful that you saw this through, through the planning
00:33:53.520
process and through the, the event itself for two reasons.
00:33:57.480
Number one, I think there's an important dialogue that has been put forward by Dr. Zucker.
00:34:02.160
But I also think more poignantly, the process is the punishment when it comes to shutting
00:34:08.840
people down in a lot of cases, whether it's security fees that are made just to shut down
00:34:13.920
the event or whether it's all of these groups that have a say in trying to dilute or ultimately
00:34:20.260
And for this one, the process seemed to be the savior of it.
00:34:24.620
It was the process that showed dialogue is important in the process that ultimately was
00:34:31.260
So whether it can be replicated in the same way that the scientific method requires as
00:34:36.560
far as doing this event and in other forms, I think it's important that it happened and
00:34:41.180
important that people saw that it happened and that no one was unsafe, that no one was
00:34:48.160
No one was irreparably damaged by words in an academic forum.
00:34:54.460
I, I, I, I do agree with you when you say the process is the punishment, I should say that
00:35:00.200
I do think, uh, Professor Vissier who organized this, uh, was pretty courageous because, uh,
00:35:18.840
I would say days and days, uh, were just occupied with responding to, um, you know, hostile, uh,
00:35:30.040
And he tried his, his language was so conciliatory.
00:35:34.380
He made such a, a passionate, uh, beautiful introduction to the event, uh, in which he made
00:35:42.200
a plea for reconciliation, uh, between the two sides.
00:35:46.740
And, um, you know, this, this idea of, of goodwill and good faith.
00:35:52.420
It was a very beautiful, I included several paragraphs of his introductory remarks in my
00:35:57.700
post-millennial piece because I thought I've never seen anyone so, um, so, uh, idealistically,
00:36:06.700
uh, and trying so hard to bring two sides of, of, of a, basically a political situation together.
00:36:19.500
I don't think from, you know, any official credit for that, but I'm giving him credit.
00:36:24.140
Yeah. Well, he gets it from me as well. So he's getting his due here. It's not a great
00:36:28.060
honor to get your due on the Andrew Lawton show, but we'll, uh, we'll do what we can.
00:36:31.620
Barbara Kaye, National Post columnist, joining me on the line now. Barbara, thank you so much
00:36:35.840
for doing this and also for coming on today. Really appreciate it.
00:36:41.420
You know, it's interesting. When I invited Barbara, I wanted this event to basically serve
00:36:46.700
as the launching point for a broader discussion about free speech. And it ended up going as live
00:36:52.280
programming does in a bit of a different direction. We were spoke speaking more about the specific
00:36:57.320
event and about gender identity and all of these things, but I still think that's an important
00:37:02.280
dialogue to have. And there are a couple of reasons for that. Number one, it's not a dialogue
00:37:08.120
that people want to entertain and not withstanding this McGill event, which by the way, they did try to
00:37:14.280
shut down. When Zucker was in a documentary, a BBC documentary that looked at the pro and anti-transitioning
00:37:22.680
arguments, and he was not an anti-transitioner, by the way, that documentary has become so controversial
00:37:29.160
that even CBC was subjected to calls for boycotts. I mean, people can boycott CBC, but boycotts for being
00:37:35.960
too transphobic for supposedly airing or was, or planning to air the documentary. And I don't even think
00:37:42.200
it ever happened. So the idea that you can't even have a discussion about research with a researcher
00:37:49.480
without going down this road into identity politics is absolutely insane. So like I said,
00:37:54.440
we didn't speak as much on the broader umbrella of free speech. We focused on this event, but also I
00:38:00.040
think in doing so illuminated perhaps a bit of hopefulness on the horizon, but also what the stakes
00:38:06.200
are when it comes to trying to have discussions in an academic context or any other context. So my thanks
00:38:11.800
to Barbara Kay for coming on. My thanks to all of you for tuning into the show here. We'll be back
00:38:17.000
next week with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show here on True North. This is the Andrew
00:38:21.800
Lawton Show. Thank you, God bless, and good day Canada. Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:38:26.840
Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.