Juno News - Truckers' convoy isn't about vaccines – it's about freedom

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.700 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.900 Coming up, there's a great big convoy heading to Ottawa, but where on earth is Aaron O'Toole?

00:00:17.960 Plus, former Ontario Privacy Commissioner Anne Kavoukian on vaccine passports and the surveillance state.

00:00:25.860 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North, Tuesday, January 25th, 2022.

00:00:40.100 Good to have you aboard the program here.

00:00:43.040 I'm not in a transport truck right now, but I am cheering on the convoy from afar.

00:00:48.680 I was listening to that Paul Brandt song, Convoy, on repeat yesterday.

00:00:53.040 I was getting in the mood.

00:00:54.300 I don't want to play a little bit of it, because sometimes YouTube will then just automatically throw the whole episode.

00:01:00.000 Into some sort of big tech purgatory, just because you've used five seconds of a song.

00:01:04.620 So, I will tell you to look up the song.

00:01:06.700 Paul Brandt is great.

00:01:07.640 I've interviewed him.

00:01:08.720 I have no idea what he thinks of the convoy making its way across the country right now.

00:01:13.640 But I do know that that convoy is growing and growing.

00:01:18.060 And by the time it rolls into Ottawa on Saturday, I don't know how many people are going to be there.

00:01:23.140 I know that they've said 50,000.

00:01:25.120 And that seems like a lot.

00:01:26.300 I've seen some reports on Twitter that have suggested there are maybe, you know, 70 kilometers worth of trucks that have been rolling through the prairies in the last day and a bit through Alberta and Saskatchewan.

00:01:38.900 But I think it's exciting.

00:01:41.220 And here's the problem.

00:01:43.140 There are many problems.

00:01:44.320 What they're protesting is entirely within their right to protest.

00:01:48.260 It's something that everyone should be protesting.

00:01:50.360 Vaccine mandates more broadly, specifically for them, the vaccine mandate that prevents them from being able to cross the border and come back into Canada without being fully vaccinated, if that's something that for whatever reason they don't want.

00:02:03.920 But beyond this, we also have the idea that they're taking a stand in.

00:02:08.880 And they've done it in a way that I find interesting here.

00:02:12.200 Aaron O'Toole has actually joined their message without saying that he wants anything to do with them.

00:02:19.180 Quite the opposite.

00:02:20.360 So a couple of weeks ago, Conservative leader Aaron O'Toole said that he opposes the vaccine mandate for truckers.

00:02:26.740 His approach on this has been about the importance of securing supply chains, of fighting against grocery store shelves, all of that.

00:02:33.920 But he hasn't wanted to take up any of these fights in any other context.

00:02:37.980 He's not been waging the war for freedom on vaccine mandates and vaccine passports.

00:02:43.700 He's made some veiled, nondescript attacks against lockdowns, but hasn't really dealt with or engaged in the substance of these things.

00:02:53.680 But when grocery store shelves are at issue, he's saying, yep, I'm with you.

00:02:57.800 I'm opposed to the mandate.

00:02:58.840 So it was odd to see at his press conference yesterday him unwilling to say whether he supports the convoy, let alone whether he will meet with them.

00:03:09.160 I'm not going to play the whole thing.

00:03:10.580 He was asked, I think it was about eight times in English and in French, what he thinks of the convoy and wouldn't give an answer at all.

00:03:18.360 This is just one sample of it.

00:03:20.980 And to follow, again, repeat Louis' question, will you meet with them when they come to Ottawa?

00:03:26.420 We've been talking to the Canadian Truckers Alliance, Glenn, for several months.

00:03:30.260 We've seen a crisis in the supply chain coming for several months, and we've proposed policies to try and help alleviate that, the most important of which is vaccines.

00:03:41.380 And we encourage everyone to get vaccinated and to get boosted.

00:03:44.980 And how can we use those tools alongside the other tools to make sure that we don't see shortages on grocery store shelves?

00:03:53.340 Because here's the reality.

00:03:55.060 When there's a shortage of products, the costs go up, and Canadians are already 60% worried about paying their grocery bill.

00:04:03.240 So we can't have policies that make that even worse, and we can't raise taxes.

00:04:07.620 So that's what we've been advocating for responsibly the last few months, Glenn, is to try and tackle the supply chain crisis, encourage vaccination, not ignore problems and divide the country like Mr. Trudeau does.

00:04:20.880 He was asked a couple more times, and then he was asked, okay, will you meet with them at least?

00:04:26.520 And he said it's not his place.

00:04:29.380 This is the answer he gave to CBC's Travis Danraj on whether he'll meet with them.

00:04:34.240 I assume that you knew that you were going to get questions on the trucker convoy today.

00:04:39.680 It's just striking as odd that you don't have a clear position on this.

00:04:44.180 So I'm going to try again.

00:04:45.260 I know that our colleagues, my colleagues have tried.

00:04:48.720 But, like, why are you unwilling to tell these truckers coming to Ottawa if you stand with them or not?

00:04:55.100 And do you have a position that you will make clear today?

00:04:58.760 Well, Travis, let me be perfectly clear.

00:05:02.080 As I just said in French, it's not for the leader of the opposition or political party to attend a protest on the hill or a convoy.

00:05:12.380 It's up to politicians to advocate for solutions in a cost of living crisis, in a supply chain crisis, in a way that's responsible and respectful of the public health crisis we're in.

00:05:25.540 Okay, so he's not saying whether he supports them.

00:05:28.480 Then he says it's not the place of a leader of the opposition to meet with any protesters.

00:05:32.960 Setting aside for a moment that opposition leaders join protests on Parliament Hill historically.

00:05:39.080 They've spoken at them.

00:05:40.620 This is not a novel concept.

00:05:42.600 But, nevertheless, he wasn't giving an answer.

00:05:45.440 So, we can take from this that he probably does not support the convoy, but doesn't want to say it.

00:05:51.240 Or he does support the convoy and doesn't want to say it.

00:05:54.280 But I think that's a lot less likely.

00:05:56.580 I think that's a lot less likely.

00:05:58.340 And the reason I want to bring this up and focus on his words here is because Aaron O'Toole has taken issue with the vaccine mandate for truckers,

00:06:07.860 but he's doing it for the wrong reasons.

00:06:10.340 Now, if you take the Machiavellian approach, well, you know what, the right outcome for the wrong reasons may suit you just fine.

00:06:16.760 And in a political fashion, yes, I agree with that.

00:06:20.300 If you're looking just at the politics of it, I don't care how people agree with me.

00:06:24.640 As long as they agree with me, that's fine.

00:06:26.920 But if we're talking about building a movement here and wanting a conservative movement,

00:06:31.500 a small-c conservative movement and a leader of that movement,

00:06:36.420 his approach to this issue misses the mark entirely.

00:06:40.340 And the reason I say that is because vaccine mandates are not wrong because they might lead to empty store shelves.

00:06:46.880 They're not wrong because of supply chain issues.

00:06:49.340 They're not wrong because they put truckers out of work.

00:06:52.180 They're wrong because they're wrong.

00:06:55.560 All of these other things are important, but they are incidental to the fundamental question

00:07:00.760 of whether the state has the right to mandate vaccination for anyone, for any job.

00:07:07.780 And the answer to that is no.

00:07:10.880 And there are some fixed truths here, some universal moral truths that Aaron O'Toole doesn't want to engage with.

00:07:17.020 Now, again, I don't want the conservative leader to be a moral or political philosopher.

00:07:21.280 It's certainly not this conservative leader or anyone else in Canadian politics, for that matter.

00:07:25.800 But what I'm saying here is that you can't just take this tiny little subset of this debate and say,

00:07:31.820 yeah, this mandate's wrong because, you know, there's no cauliflower on the shelves.

00:07:36.640 Well, I mean, because that's saying that if the government were to find a way to put cauliflower on the shelves,

00:07:41.940 the vaccine mandate wouldn't be a problem, which we know isn't the case.

00:07:46.060 Now, I do think that the economic dimension of this is the only reason the conservatives are choosing to take up this particular vaccine mandate fight.

00:07:55.840 They're not talking about vaccine mandates for health care workers.

00:07:58.400 They're not talking about vaccine mandates for air travelers.

00:08:01.400 They're not talking about vaccine mandate for travelers in general returning home to Canada who want to evade quarantine.

00:08:07.860 None of these issues are factoring into the conservative message on the pandemic.

00:08:13.960 They're only talking about truckers because there is a supply chain component.

00:08:18.780 And I mentioned this.

00:08:19.960 I wrote a column in my Substack yesterday, which I do hope you will check out, andrewlawton.substack.com.

00:08:25.880 It's not affiliated with True North, but I use it to promote a lot of my work and expand on some of the ideas we talk about on this show.

00:08:32.800 So the point I made in there is that the conservatives have tried to, instead of being the official opposition, be the official auditors of Canada.

00:08:42.200 They're concerned with pocketbook issues, with economic issues, and anything outside of that, they don't want to touch.

00:08:50.120 And it's the biggest delusion of conservatism in Canada that you need to stay in this safe, protected, segregated terrain of just dealing with the economy. 0.96

00:09:01.400 It's like taking that old James Carville axiom, it's the economy, stupid, and moving it just past the point of relevance because you're only focused on those issues. 0.91

00:09:11.040 The economy is important, but in a complex time, people are looking for more than that. 0.93

00:09:17.580 This idea, this conservative idea that you have to focus on the economy, only works when the economy is the number one issue facing Canadians.

00:09:25.880 And incidentally, in most elections, it probably is.

00:09:30.500 In most elections, taxes, cost of living are probably the most important issues that Canadians have.

00:09:36.440 Even peripheral issues to that, like things like the carbon tax, that's an economic issue.

00:09:40.900 That's a cost of living issue more than it's an environmental issue for most Canadians.

00:09:45.140 Not for Justin Trudeau, but for the average voter and taxpayer.

00:09:48.460 But the last two years has been monumentally different.

00:09:53.240 The number one issue facing Canadians is not an economic issue.

00:09:57.780 It's an entire bundle of issues related to pandemic.

00:10:01.260 There's health, there's economics, and there is also the ongoing assault and the increasing assault on civil liberties.

00:10:08.300 And there are certain issues that need to be the hill to die on.

00:10:13.080 Fundamental freedoms are at the very top of that hill.

00:10:17.900 If you don't stand up for those, you're not really standing up for anything of substance.

00:10:21.300 I don't care how low my taxes are if I live in an unfree society, an unfree country, 0.99

00:10:28.020 a country in which the government is the one that apparently retains the right to decide what happens to my body.

00:10:34.460 So right now, these are political problems.

00:10:39.740 The Canadian government didn't cause COVID.

00:10:42.400 The Canadian government didn't cause the pandemic.

00:10:44.980 But the Canadian government has caused its response to the pandemic.

00:10:50.720 So this is a political issue in need of a political solution.

00:10:56.380 Ideally, this would be something that would serve as a welcome mat with, you know,

00:11:00.640 big flashing lights telling Aaron O'Toole, this is your runway.

00:11:04.100 You can land on it.

00:11:05.780 But he's not doing that.

00:11:07.040 And he's not been doing that for most, basically the entirety of his leadership.

00:11:11.100 Because remember, he became the leader of the Conservatives midway through this pandemic.

00:11:16.020 In August of 2020.

00:11:18.760 So he's had a year and a half.

00:11:21.720 And he has not wanted to take up the biggest challenges facing Canadians.

00:11:25.740 So when I see thousands of truckers, and by the way, more, I mean, I don't even want to give a number,

00:11:32.180 but at the time of recording this, it's about $4 million that's been put towards this convoy.

00:11:39.020 Thousands of people.

00:11:40.040 You look at the videos, the images, people lining highway overpasses, lining the sides of the highways,

00:11:45.920 cheering on these truckers as they roll by on their way to Ottawa.

00:11:49.740 These are not just like these racist, misogynist, anti-vaxxers that Justin Trudeau likes to malign.

00:11:55.500 These are ordinary people that are saying, you know what, these people are speaking for me.

00:12:00.140 And how dare the official opposition leader, who claims that he agrees with these people,

00:12:07.980 he hasn't said he agrees with them, but he claims that his position is the one that has launched them to action.

00:12:13.460 How dare he not oppose?

00:12:18.120 There is a movement right now in Canada that's growing,

00:12:21.160 and it's a movement that in the political context of elected Canadian officials is without a leader, sort of.

00:12:29.120 And here's the caveat.

00:12:30.640 And by the way, let me just say, Maxine Bernier, I know, has been very solid on vaccine mandates.

00:12:36.000 His power is limited given that he is not in public office.

00:12:40.200 And I think he would be the first to admit that.

00:12:41.960 So I don't want to get all the PPC supporters jumping up and down saying,

00:12:45.020 why are you ignoring Maxine Bernier?

00:12:46.440 We've covered at True North the PPC, I think, more than most media outlets in this country have.

00:12:51.140 Certainly among independent media, there have been others.

00:12:53.540 But compared to mainstream, we have spent more time focusing on who they are and what they believe

00:12:58.740 because they're a part of this country.

00:13:02.280 Nevertheless, when we look at the political structures in Canada and elected officials,

00:13:09.060 Aaron O'Toole is, as I said in my newsletter, he's at the side of the road while his base,

00:13:14.120 while the country, is getting on the convoy.

00:13:16.360 Now, there have been some MPs that are speaking out.

00:13:18.880 So the Conservative caucus has been fairly tight-lipped in the last year

00:13:23.280 because I think O'Toole has tried to crack the whip a little bit.

00:13:26.840 But that's breaking away.

00:13:28.700 And I want to point out a couple of examples here.

00:13:30.860 Martin Shields, he is a Bow River MP.

00:13:32.860 He did a video in front of the Centennial Flame on Parliament Hill saying,

00:13:37.920 I'm here in Ottawa.

00:13:38.740 I'm waiting for the convoy.

00:13:40.080 I can't wait for them to get here.

00:13:41.560 That's great.

00:13:42.280 And that was like just half an hour before O'Toole's press conference

00:13:45.360 in which he wouldn't say whether he supported them or not.

00:13:49.000 Andrew Scheer, the former Conservative Party of Canada leader,

00:13:52.580 has talked about how great truckers are and the importance of resisting the mandate.

00:13:56.860 Pierre Paulyev has said he agrees.

00:13:58.820 And he also tweeted a link to a National Post op-ed

00:14:02.800 talking about the assaults on fundamental freedoms

00:14:05.980 that the lockdown happy, the lockdown mongers have viewed

00:14:10.320 the pandemic as an excuse to put forward.

00:14:13.920 Other MPs as well, Kevin Waugh, who's the Saskatchewan caucus chair,

00:14:19.380 he has said that he's supportive of them.

00:14:21.800 He actually saw them off.

00:14:23.200 I think it was in Saskatoon.

00:14:25.040 And then what happened is he said,

00:14:26.640 I'm going to meet you guys in Ottawa.

00:14:27.720 So he's probably getting at a plane to get ahead of the convoy.

00:14:30.580 But still, you've got Conservative MPs that are cheering for this convoy

00:14:34.160 and a Conservative leader that won't even say

00:14:36.860 whether he agrees with what it is they're doing.

00:14:40.300 And I'm going to put on my political strategist hat.

00:14:42.820 I don't even know if I have a political strategist hat lying around.

00:14:45.240 I think it might be still in the boxes in the next room.

00:14:47.000 But if I had a political strategist hat,

00:14:49.260 I would put it on here and say this.

00:14:51.300 What O'Toole is trying to do is get the best of both worlds.

00:14:55.280 He's trying to, by saying he opposes the trucker mandate,

00:14:58.500 win over the support of the base,

00:15:00.280 the people like me that are against lockdowns and are against vaccine mandates.

00:15:04.240 But by not saying he supports the convoy,

00:15:06.860 he's trying to win all that support from the media and the center and the left.

00:15:10.600 I'm moderate.

00:15:11.500 I'm reasonable.

00:15:12.860 Yes, I'm not like those people.

00:15:15.180 But when you try to win both sides, you end up alienating both.

00:15:19.160 This is the reality of Conservatives that try to walk this line.

00:15:22.380 There's a reason that Aaron O'Toole is not prime minister right now.

00:15:25.700 And it's because it doesn't work.

00:15:28.740 It doesn't work.

00:15:30.180 It's never worked.

00:15:31.340 And it never will work.

00:15:33.640 Because the people on the left are always going to be distrustful.

00:15:36.920 That's why he was getting the question, I think, eight times at that press conference.

00:15:42.320 Do you support them?

00:15:43.360 Yes or no.

00:15:43.840 The media wasn't buying that he didn't.

00:15:46.180 Because the media thinks he supports them anyway.

00:15:47.900 The media thinks that Conservatives are the very worst caricature of themselves.

00:15:53.460 The media thinks that Aaron O'Toole wants to put on a trucker hat,

00:15:57.420 start singing that Paul Brandt song, and leading the convoy himself.

00:16:01.020 Get his, you know, AZ license, get in the truck, and start leading the convoy.

00:16:05.320 That's what the media thinks Aaron O'Toole secretly wants to do.

00:16:08.920 Now, I think most Conservatives probably wish that were the case.

00:16:11.660 But it's not.

00:16:12.440 So unless he comes out and says, I absolutely, unequivocally denounce it,

00:16:18.040 the media is going to assume he's basically going to be the Grand Marshal of the convoy

00:16:21.860 at any given moment here.

00:16:24.340 So that distrust is there.

00:16:27.460 Conversely, the other side is no longer trusting him either.

00:16:31.440 Because people that might have thought he was on side are now hearing him say,

00:16:34.600 well, you know, it's not for me, and, you know, again, and inflation, and vaccines, get vaccinated.

00:16:43.120 Like, again, when you look at him there, it's like, how on earth are we seeing?

00:16:46.560 We expected to see a Conservative leader.

00:16:49.600 And in that press conference yesterday, I didn't see O'Toole putting forward conservatism or leadership.

00:16:56.360 And this is a tremendous problem for the country right now.

00:17:00.700 Because, as I said, you can win over hearts and minds, you can engage in the culture,

00:17:05.740 you can do all that as much as you want.

00:17:07.380 But right now, these are political problems being created by political leaders,

00:17:11.680 and thus in need of political solutions from political leaders.

00:17:16.260 And the person most positioned to be offering those, Aaron O'Toole, is not doing it.

00:17:21.920 He's just not.

00:17:22.780 He's just not doing it.

00:17:23.920 And the trucker convoy, I mean, obviously, it's about truckers.

00:17:29.140 And this is the most imminent, pressing example of the vaccine mandate in action.

00:17:33.740 Some of the naysayers on Twitter have tried to say, well, you know, how could they even,

00:17:37.880 even if Canada changed its rules, the U.S. has now put a trucker mandate in,

00:17:42.360 so it's not like they could do their jobs anyway.

00:17:44.660 And I think that's besides the point.

00:17:47.320 I truly think it is.

00:17:48.840 And there are two main reasons for that.

00:17:51.060 Number one is that the U.S. did it after Canada did.

00:17:56.640 And it's entirely possible, like with the border closure,

00:17:59.200 that it was responsive or retaliatory to Canada.

00:18:02.520 Now, the Biden administration has a very different approach to these things

00:18:05.780 than the Trump administration does, obviously.

00:18:08.220 But I do think that there's something to be said that that may have been responding,

00:18:12.160 because Canada basically said, we're shutting the door to unvaccinated American truckers. 0.97

00:18:16.800 And the U.S. probably just said, all right, screw you.

00:18:19.420 Now, the other side of this is that we're not talking anymore about the specific 0.89

00:18:24.420 implications of this.

00:18:26.340 We're talking about the bigger picture.

00:18:27.940 Or if we're not, we should be.

00:18:29.820 We should be talking about the bigger picture here.

00:18:33.040 Because what is unfolding right now is going to be, by the time it gets to Ottawa on Saturday,

00:18:39.000 much bigger than just the truckers.

00:18:41.100 There are truckers in this that are fully vaccinated, that aren't affected directly.

00:18:44.500 There are truckers in this that aren't even cross-border truckers,

00:18:48.220 that are just saying they want to live their lives and not have the government able to intervene,

00:18:55.820 not have the government interested in intervening.

00:18:59.960 And this is why, as much as I hate that old Martin Niemöller poem that gets, you know,

00:19:04.640 taken out and used so many times in every context, you know,

00:19:07.960 first they came for the trade unionists, then they came for the so- and all of that.

00:19:11.520 There is something to be said about if you don't see where this is headed,

00:19:16.420 you're going to at some point realize that it's too late to do anything about it.

00:19:21.100 And we're in this situation now in Canada.

00:19:23.920 The vaccine mandate for healthcare workers,

00:19:26.200 the vaccine mandate for air and train travelers,

00:19:28.700 the vaccine mandate for public servants,

00:19:30.800 now the vaccine mandate for truckers.

00:19:32.700 At a certain point, there's going to be so few people left

00:19:36.580 who have not been subjected to a mandate that there really won't be anyone to stand up for them.

00:19:42.880 So if the trucker mandate is the one that galvanizes support here,

00:19:47.720 that brings people who have previously not spoken out about this on board,

00:19:52.140 as I think it's doing, that's great news.

00:19:55.960 But Aaron O'Toole is not leading on this.

00:19:58.180 And it's not just him.

00:19:59.160 Obviously, Justin Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh are exactly in lockstep on this,

00:20:03.640 but that's precisely the problem.

00:20:05.960 We've prioritized in the pandemic having a unified so-called Team Canada approach,

00:20:12.560 which earlier on might have been important,

00:20:15.120 back when we were still clanging and banging pots and pans for healthcare workers.

00:20:18.480 But now that we're firing people for not being vaccinated,

00:20:21.300 I think it's safe to say that the clanging and banging things for essential workers was all a myth.

00:20:26.000 It was all a charade.

00:20:26.880 Maybe we believed it for five minutes.

00:20:28.360 But we're past that point.

00:20:30.360 So I don't want the unified Team Canada approach,

00:20:33.540 if that unified approach is one that is surrendering civil liberties more and more by the day.

00:20:40.100 I don't want political leaders to be unified on that.

00:20:43.480 I want there to be opposition.

00:20:45.240 I want there to be resistance.

00:20:47.760 And if it's not coming from the political class,

00:20:50.400 it has to come from thousands of truckers that do exactly what they can.

00:20:54.900 One truck driving to Ottawa doesn't do anything.

00:20:57.020 Two or three don't do anything.

00:20:59.520 Thousands of trucks, millions of dollars, people lining the streets.

00:21:02.740 That's making an impact.

00:21:04.740 Does it have the ability to change policy?

00:21:07.620 Maybe, maybe not.

00:21:09.420 But it certainly is being noticed.

00:21:11.680 People around the world are talking about this trucker convoy.

00:21:15.000 It's a very quintessentially Canadian protest,

00:21:18.200 which I think is fantastic.

00:21:20.080 So I want to continue to see this grow.

00:21:23.840 And before you fall down the road, because I've already seen it on Twitter,

00:21:26.620 people that point out individual comments made by,

00:21:29.460 oh, well, this person said this thing that's controversial.

00:21:31.840 None of that matters.

00:21:33.920 And it's done by people that want to dismantle something

00:21:37.360 that they can't really do on philosophical or ideological grounds.

00:21:41.760 No one can say that the vaccine mandate is morally right.

00:21:46.160 So all they can do is say,

00:21:47.580 well, you know, this guy once tweeted something,

00:21:49.840 and he's in the convoy, so there we go.

00:21:52.020 Again, I'm not interested,

00:21:53.300 because the whole point is that it's greater than the sum of its parts.

00:21:56.600 It's bigger than any one person in it.

00:21:58.460 This is a movement.

00:21:59.540 That movement is rolling.

00:22:01.120 And Aaron O'Toole can get in the convoy or stay on the side of the road.

00:22:04.180 He can take the bus.

00:22:05.060 I don't care.

00:22:06.900 But this is where the country is.

00:22:08.780 This is where the conservative base is.

00:22:10.860 And you know what?

00:22:12.120 People should get on board.

00:22:13.800 We've got to take a break.

00:22:14.920 When we come back,

00:22:15.740 more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:22:20.800 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:22:26.360 We are back.

00:22:27.680 This is The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:22:30.960 Obviously, this show has,

00:22:33.240 I don't want to say devolved,

00:22:34.640 because as I mentioned earlier,

00:22:35.860 these are important issues.

00:22:37.260 And I think if political leaders aren't taking them up,

00:22:39.440 certainly we need to in the public sphere

00:22:42.620 and in media, independent media, all of that.

00:22:45.120 But I do want to talk about vaccine mandates

00:22:46.960 and vaccine passports from a different perspective here.

00:22:49.940 We touched last week on what's happening in Europe

00:22:52.840 and this migration towards

00:22:54.480 what a lot of people fear is becoming a surveillance state.

00:22:58.620 It's not just about the segregation of society

00:23:00.740 based on vaccination status,

00:23:02.360 but the implications of having to show that,

00:23:05.020 of having to log that.

00:23:06.280 And this is a discussion that we haven't really had

00:23:09.960 as a country in Canada.

00:23:11.800 Privacy rights in general, I'd say,

00:23:13.500 are not things that seem top of mind

00:23:15.520 on the political agenda.

00:23:17.320 So I want to talk about this.

00:23:18.840 And there's no one better than Dr. Anne Kavoukian,

00:23:22.140 who was for three terms,

00:23:23.500 the Privacy Commissioner in Ontario,

00:23:25.080 and also is the Executive Director

00:23:26.960 of the Global Privacy and Security by Design Centre.

00:23:30.340 And as her Twitter bio says,

00:23:31.640 a lover of privacy and freedom,

00:23:33.300 who joins me now.

00:23:34.400 And wonderful to talk to you.

00:23:35.560 Thanks very much for joining me today.

00:23:38.000 Oh, it's my pleasure, Andrew.

00:23:39.040 Thank you.

00:23:39.980 You wrote a tremendous piece on your Substack

00:23:43.280 back in October that I wanted to start off on here

00:23:46.340 because you challenged a presumption I've always had

00:23:49.560 about a lot of the things that I've argued for.

00:23:52.320 And I've always viewed freedom

00:23:53.900 as being really that fundamental base unit

00:23:56.600 that you need to live the good life,

00:23:58.680 as they say in political theory.

00:24:00.840 But you said that there's something

00:24:01.980 more fundamental to that.

00:24:03.520 You argued that privacy is needed to enjoy freedom.

00:24:07.300 And I want to get to the vaccine passports 1.00

00:24:09.360 and the vaccine mandates,

00:24:10.580 but I first wanted to set you up

00:24:12.420 to explain what you mean by that.

00:24:14.300 I've always said that privacy forms

00:24:16.160 the foundation of our freedom.

00:24:18.040 You cannot have free and open societies

00:24:20.020 without a solid foundation of privacy,

00:24:22.620 where you, the individual,

00:24:24.620 get to decide what information you choose to disclose

00:24:28.000 and to whom and how it's used.

00:24:30.040 You have to have control over this.

00:24:32.100 That, to me, is what freedom is all about.

00:24:34.520 So privacy and freedom go hand in hand.

00:24:36.920 We've often viewed, I think for a lot of people,

00:24:40.940 the big threats against privacy

00:24:42.560 as coming from corporations.

00:24:44.160 Certainly in the last decade or so,

00:24:46.420 big tech censorship,

00:24:47.980 big tech companies like Facebook and Google

00:24:50.100 amassing these huge troves of data about you.

00:24:53.140 We're in a new era now, though.

00:24:54.740 Vaccine passports are one of many examples

00:24:57.220 where something that used to be,

00:24:59.300 and in a distant era,

00:25:00.780 or even a not so distant era,

00:25:02.240 would have been your private information,

00:25:03.720 your private choices is now part of your identity

00:25:06.880 in a way that you must use that to access public sphere.

00:25:11.160 But it's not private corporations

00:25:12.860 that are imposing that, it's government.

00:25:15.500 Oh, I think government is our greatest concern now,

00:25:18.720 quite frankly,

00:25:19.780 because their ability to usurp our information,

00:25:23.740 to tell us what to do,

00:25:25.660 and expect us just to accept that.

00:25:28.400 They, in my view, are seeking much greater control,

00:25:32.100 and they're getting control.

00:25:33.560 When you look at the COVID pandemic,

00:25:35.820 they are scaring people to death.

00:25:37.780 And when people live in a world of fear,

00:25:41.060 then it just eradicates their lives.

00:25:44.500 They go along with whatever,

00:25:45.960 not because they agree with it,

00:25:47.400 but because they feel they have no choice

00:25:49.100 and they're scared for their lives.

00:25:51.700 Governments are who we have to look after right now

00:25:54.160 in terms of usurping our freedoms.

00:25:57.100 When it comes to privacy,

00:25:58.640 I know the five words you've heard

00:26:00.240 that must just make your skin crawl,

00:26:01.880 or if you have nothing to hide, dot, dot, dot.

00:26:05.040 And at the same time, though,

00:26:06.460 we're seeing this in the vaccine passport discussion.

00:26:08.860 People who say,

00:26:09.560 well, if you're fully vaccinated,

00:26:11.080 what's the big deal?

00:26:12.140 Why do you care so much?

00:26:13.420 And I'm having trouble convincing

00:26:15.220 some of those people

00:26:16.200 why they should care about these measures

00:26:18.820 if they're on board with the particular output.

00:26:21.200 They're fully vaccinated.

00:26:22.700 Why should those people still care

00:26:24.200 about these incursions you're talking about?

00:26:26.700 Because it's your full life,

00:26:28.260 your freedom.

00:26:29.500 I mean, just because you're vaccinated,

00:26:31.540 first of all,

00:26:31.920 there are so many myths associated

00:26:33.460 with being vaccinated

00:26:34.500 and the strength of the vaccines.

00:26:36.540 It is appalling.

00:26:38.240 And so don't think for a minute

00:26:39.940 that just because you've been vaccinated,

00:26:41.620 everything is fine.

00:26:42.680 Most of the people appearing

00:26:43.760 in the hospitals now with COVID

00:26:45.260 are fully vaccinated,

00:26:46.580 fully boosted, everything.

00:26:48.340 And let me go back to that line

00:26:50.340 you started with.

00:26:51.180 Well, if you have nothing to hide,

00:26:52.400 you have nothing to fear, right?

00:26:53.940 Wrong.

00:26:54.620 That could have been the motto

00:26:55.980 of the Stasi police and the third right

00:26:57.920 because it presumes

00:26:59.400 that the government

00:27:00.500 has a right of access

00:27:01.720 to all your information

00:27:02.840 and you should open up your life to them

00:27:05.160 and give them whatever they want.

00:27:07.100 And that's not what freedom is about.

00:27:08.740 That's not what privacy is about.

00:27:10.480 It is usurping the role

00:27:12.100 of individuals and personal control.

00:27:15.220 Privacy is all about personal control

00:27:16.740 over the use and disclosure

00:27:17.960 of your personal information.

00:27:19.860 That's what freedom is about.

00:27:21.440 Government is totally trying

00:27:23.120 to change the narrative

00:27:24.180 to say that,

00:27:25.280 well, what's the problem?

00:27:26.640 Why shouldn't you get the vaccine?

00:27:28.580 We're telling you,

00:27:29.120 you should be doing this.

00:27:29.960 Well, you got nothing to hide, right?

00:27:31.720 Wrong.

00:27:32.160 It has nothing to do with that.

00:27:34.340 Well, this is why I've been so unsettled

00:27:36.680 by people who have been,

00:27:37.880 especially in the UK right now,

00:27:39.260 where they've basically revoked

00:27:41.020 all of their COVID restrictions,

00:27:42.500 people heaping praise on these governments.

00:27:44.220 And I'm unsettled by this

00:27:46.380 because it reinforces that very idea

00:27:48.680 that they were government's freedoms

00:27:50.500 to give and government's freedoms

00:27:52.340 to take away,

00:27:53.180 which we know is not the case.

00:27:54.740 And I think so many people,

00:27:56.320 especially in Canada,

00:27:57.400 are so beaten down by now

00:27:59.220 about lockdowns and restrictions

00:28:00.640 that they'll be grateful

00:28:02.140 when these things are lifted,

00:28:04.140 at least in some form.

00:28:05.580 I mean, I had a conversation

00:28:07.100 a little while ago

00:28:07.880 with someone about masks on planes.

00:28:09.520 And I said, you know,

00:28:10.400 it's something that I fear

00:28:11.320 will be here forever.

00:28:12.480 And they said, well, you know,

00:28:13.480 if that's the only restriction left,

00:28:15.100 then I can live with it.

00:28:16.360 So people have already accepted

00:28:18.440 this idea that they have to settle

00:28:20.180 for less than we're supposed

00:28:22.040 to have in a free society.

00:28:23.700 But here's what we're not seeing

00:28:25.000 in mainstream media.

00:28:26.260 There is so much opposition to this.

00:28:28.560 Over the weekend,

00:28:29.640 there were protests in countries

00:28:31.420 all over the world

00:28:32.980 opposing vaccine mandates,

00:28:35.760 passports, et cetera.

00:28:38.080 A hundred thousand in Brussels.

00:28:40.220 There was a huge one in London,

00:28:42.240 in Dublin, here in Toronto.

00:28:45.580 On Saturday, there was huge protests

00:28:47.680 and got no coverage whatsoever.

00:28:49.180 And all across the country.

00:28:51.540 So people are objecting to this.

00:28:53.920 Many, many people.

00:28:54.900 You're not hearing about it

00:28:55.980 on mainstream media.

00:28:57.320 That's the problem.

00:28:58.580 So do not think that this

00:29:00.640 is being widely accepted

00:29:01.880 and it's fine

00:29:02.580 and we're just going to go along with this.

00:29:04.120 No, we're not.

00:29:05.460 We value our freedom.

00:29:06.700 We value our privacy.

00:29:07.820 We're going to stand up

00:29:08.520 for our personal rights.

00:29:09.960 And when you're talking

00:29:10.860 about vaccine mandates

00:29:12.140 and passports,

00:29:13.220 we're talking about

00:29:13.820 the most sensitive personal information

00:29:15.680 that exists,

00:29:16.940 your personal health information,

00:29:18.420 your medical data.

00:29:19.420 This doesn't belong

00:29:20.520 to anybody in the public.

00:29:21.900 It belongs to you

00:29:22.560 and your physician,

00:29:23.380 whoever you choose

00:29:24.260 to disclose it to.

00:29:25.700 You shouldn't have to be expected

00:29:27.280 to present a passport on this.

00:29:29.860 It is absurd.

00:29:30.640 One of the things

00:29:33.120 I wanted to ask you about, Anne,

00:29:34.480 is this idea of systems

00:29:36.800 that are being built

00:29:37.600 by governments now

00:29:38.580 that I think will outlive

00:29:39.740 the pandemic.

00:29:40.640 Your background, obviously,

00:29:42.120 you were the creator

00:29:42.780 of Privacy by Design.

00:29:44.160 You know very well

00:29:44.880 the idea of specifically

00:29:46.100 building privacy

00:29:47.620 and protection of data

00:29:48.800 into systems.

00:29:50.020 And it strikes me

00:29:51.000 that if that's possible,

00:29:52.140 then government can do

00:29:52.940 the opposite,

00:29:53.640 which is build into systems

00:29:54.840 the premise

00:29:55.340 that there is no privacy,

00:29:56.640 build into systems

00:29:57.460 the idea that our data

00:30:00.020 do not belong to us

00:30:01.200 but belong to the government.

00:30:02.620 And my fear in this

00:30:03.900 has always been

00:30:04.700 that the vaccine passports

00:30:06.120 we have now,

00:30:07.400 sure, you're vaccinated

00:30:08.220 against COVID,

00:30:09.160 maybe you're boosted,

00:30:10.020 that's fine,

00:30:10.660 but this thing could 0.54

00:30:11.640 very easily be applied

00:30:13.040 to flu shots.

00:30:14.320 It could very easily

00:30:15.320 be applied to other things.

00:30:16.820 And I don't think

00:30:17.700 a lot of people

00:30:18.560 in certainly in mainstream media

00:30:20.480 and I would say

00:30:20.940 in government as well

00:30:21.840 are talking about

00:30:22.940 the longer term implications

00:30:24.320 of these systems

00:30:25.460 that are being designed

00:30:26.420 and this infrastructure

00:30:27.800 that right now

00:30:28.480 is being created.

00:30:29.340 No, that's right, Andrew.

00:30:30.840 The potential expansion

00:30:32.140 of this to other areas

00:30:33.640 is dramatic

00:30:35.780 and very frightening to me

00:30:38.340 because it will usurp

00:30:40.420 our freedoms

00:30:40.980 in multiple areas

00:30:42.380 where the government

00:30:43.600 has no...

00:30:44.280 And let's be frank,

00:30:45.620 the government

00:30:46.220 being in control

00:30:47.460 of our information,

00:30:49.060 they have a terrible record

00:30:51.060 in terms of securing

00:30:52.100 any of the data,

00:30:53.260 not disclosing it

00:30:54.440 to third parties

00:30:55.100 or unauthorized.

00:30:56.240 It's appalling.

00:30:57.020 The thought of it

00:30:57.980 just makes me quiver.

00:30:59.920 So no,

00:31:00.580 the government

00:31:01.060 does not have

00:31:01.780 a right of greater access

00:31:02.820 and what we need to do

00:31:04.580 and our federal privacy commissioner

00:31:06.380 has been trying

00:31:08.260 to get the government

00:31:09.120 to upgrade our privacy laws

00:31:11.200 which were introduced

00:31:11.880 in the early 2000s.

00:31:13.280 Have they done anything?

00:31:14.520 No.

00:31:15.360 This is what is appalling.

00:31:17.220 To rely on the government

00:31:18.540 to have to take care

00:31:19.860 of our privacy

00:31:20.660 and our freedom

00:31:21.280 is not going to happen.

00:31:22.740 We have to stand up.

00:31:23.780 We have to speak out

00:31:24.680 and so many people

00:31:25.960 are doing this.

00:31:26.880 You're just not hearing it

00:31:27.960 on mainstream media.

00:31:28.900 That's what concerns me so much.

00:31:30.760 I want people to know

00:31:31.880 there's so much opposition

00:31:33.380 to this all around the world

00:31:34.840 globally.

00:31:35.780 Don't give up.

00:31:37.080 Now, when you say

00:31:37.900 early 2000s,

00:31:39.100 just to give a brief summary

00:31:40.640 of the things

00:31:41.220 that have come about

00:31:41.960 since then,

00:31:43.000 digital apps,

00:31:44.160 smartphones,

00:31:45.300 social media platforms,

00:31:46.800 QR codes,

00:31:47.700 all of these

00:31:48.300 are kind of ubiquitous now

00:31:49.780 and you're saying

00:31:50.780 are not covered

00:31:51.600 by the privacy laws we had

00:31:53.460 or at least we're not

00:31:54.240 informing the development

00:31:56.340 of those laws.

00:31:57.060 They weren't top of mind.

00:31:58.100 They weren't on our minds at all

00:31:59.420 because they didn't exist back then.

00:32:01.340 We desperately need

00:32:02.660 to strengthen our laws.

00:32:03.880 For the first time,

00:32:04.800 we no longer have

00:32:05.700 essential equivalents

00:32:06.820 with the new law

00:32:07.940 that came into effect

00:32:08.900 in Europe in 2018,

00:32:10.780 the General Data Protection Regulation,

00:32:12.600 the GDPR.

00:32:13.320 Our law is no longer sufficient.

00:32:15.640 So we can no longer

00:32:16.560 exchange and trade

00:32:17.760 and engage in business

00:32:18.980 with the EU

00:32:19.980 without fear of reprisal.

00:32:21.100 And they've said

00:32:22.000 you've got to upgrade your law.

00:32:23.940 And, you know,

00:32:24.600 Federal Privacy Commission

00:32:25.740 Daniela Taliyan

00:32:26.540 has been asking the government

00:32:27.800 to do this

00:32:28.300 since 2016, 2017.

00:32:30.320 They've done nothing.

00:32:31.640 It is appalling

00:32:32.540 that we have not moved this forward

00:32:34.500 as we need to.

00:32:36.200 You mentioned Europe.

00:32:37.540 One thing I wanted to ask about

00:32:38.940 is their move,

00:32:39.860 and I don't know how much

00:32:40.640 you've delved into it,

00:32:41.840 but their move

00:32:42.480 into this digital ID

00:32:44.600 that they're trying

00:32:45.540 to put forward

00:32:46.500 and really make this

00:32:47.760 the cornerstone

00:32:48.920 of your identity

00:32:49.640 across European nations

00:32:51.020 and there was

00:32:51.620 a Dutch lawyer

00:32:52.720 I read a column

00:32:53.620 from last week

00:32:54.460 that was concerned

00:32:55.200 that the vaccine passport

00:32:56.540 will very easily

00:32:58.000 be swept up

00:32:58.820 into this digital ID

00:32:59.880 and all of a sudden

00:33:00.580 we're talking about

00:33:01.380 something that is connected

00:33:02.260 to your banking information,

00:33:04.220 your residency,

00:33:05.140 your employment,

00:33:05.860 your mobility.

00:33:06.940 How real is something

00:33:08.080 like that

00:33:08.680 in a Canadian context?

00:33:11.180 I'm hoping

00:33:11.840 it's not that real

00:33:12.640 simply because

00:33:13.200 it takes us forever

00:33:13.960 to do anything.

00:33:15.560 Yeah, bureaucracy

00:33:16.120 may be the saving grace

00:33:17.340 on this.

00:33:18.740 But I fear

00:33:20.400 the digitization

00:33:21.420 of identity,

00:33:22.940 digital ID

00:33:23.500 like they're doing

00:33:24.100 in Europe.

00:33:24.500 Then Europe will go

00:33:25.420 to great lengths

00:33:25.940 to protect it

00:33:26.720 with the GDPR,

00:33:28.840 make sure it's not centralized.

00:33:30.220 See, that's part

00:33:30.920 of the key part.

00:33:32.200 You don't want

00:33:32.680 this data centralized.

00:33:34.200 If your digital ID

00:33:35.080 is centralized,

00:33:35.860 then it can be accessed

00:33:36.680 by multiple third parties,

00:33:38.420 often unknown,

00:33:39.360 unauthorized.

00:33:40.100 You may not be aware

00:33:41.180 of it.

00:33:41.820 So you have to take

00:33:42.600 enormous precautions

00:33:43.800 if we go down

00:33:45.100 that route

00:33:45.540 of digital ID

00:33:46.300 and I don't think

00:33:46.820 we're ready for that.

00:33:48.260 Let's go back

00:33:48.760 to an Ontario context here.

00:33:50.380 You served as

00:33:51.240 the Privacy Commissioner

00:33:52.300 three terms.

00:33:53.080 I think you're still

00:33:53.660 the reigning record holder

00:33:55.240 for time you've served

00:33:56.640 in that position.

00:33:58.040 Did you find

00:33:58.860 that the resistance

00:33:59.900 you were getting

00:34:00.620 was from politicians

00:34:01.900 that were fundamentally

00:34:02.880 opposed to these things

00:34:04.920 or was it just

00:34:05.680 from people

00:34:06.080 that didn't think

00:34:06.680 it was a priority

00:34:07.440 or didn't think

00:34:08.260 it was all that important?

00:34:09.740 You know,

00:34:10.120 it was with the government.

00:34:11.360 The political parties,

00:34:12.340 whenever there was

00:34:13.440 a political party,

00:34:14.180 it wasn't the government yet.

00:34:15.100 They were all for privacy,

00:34:16.500 totally for protecting

00:34:17.800 our data, et cetera.

00:34:19.060 Then when they became

00:34:20.080 the government,

00:34:20.980 all that changed.

00:34:22.040 It shifted.

00:34:22.860 They wanted to control data.

00:34:24.240 They want to control

00:34:25.020 over our data.

00:34:26.460 And this is what concerns

00:34:27.900 me enormously

00:34:28.960 is that governments

00:34:30.280 have this belief

00:34:31.900 that they somehow

00:34:32.660 have to be in control

00:34:33.540 of people's information

00:34:34.480 and decide how

00:34:36.080 it's going to be structured

00:34:36.860 and everything.

00:34:37.920 And so I am very concerned,

00:34:40.260 especially with our

00:34:41.260 existing governments,

00:34:42.040 I truly am,

00:34:43.520 that this is the direction

00:34:44.580 they're going in.

00:34:45.220 They feel like

00:34:45.840 they've got this pass now

00:34:47.100 with the vaccine mandate

00:34:49.080 and passports

00:34:49.920 and they've got

00:34:50.280 all this control

00:34:51.080 and people are supporting them

00:34:53.180 because they're terrified.

00:34:54.660 This is what fear,

00:34:55.720 this is the fear that I have

00:34:57.160 and we have to resist

00:34:58.280 this very strongly.

00:35:00.000 When you talk about

00:35:00.940 a lot of these things,

00:35:01.900 it's easy,

00:35:02.680 or I guess would have been

00:35:03.340 a year ago

00:35:03.860 to be branded

00:35:04.520 as a conspiracy theorist,

00:35:05.860 although I think

00:35:06.280 by the more of these

00:35:07.100 so-called conspiracies

00:35:08.400 keep coming true

00:35:09.140 in the last year,

00:35:09.920 the less likely people

00:35:11.300 are to throw that term around.

00:35:12.740 But you raised

00:35:13.660 an important point there,

00:35:14.680 which is that

00:35:15.100 the pandemic does seem

00:35:16.220 to have provided

00:35:16.880 a convenient opportunity

00:35:18.160 to people

00:35:18.860 that were already committed

00:35:20.680 to certain dimensions

00:35:21.740 of pandemic policy,

00:35:23.060 specifically just

00:35:23.700 the government control aspect.

00:35:25.560 And I fear that that will

00:35:27.880 be magnified in the future.

00:35:30.400 You know, the pandemic,

00:35:31.200 we're going to get over

00:35:31.660 the pandemic sooner or later.

00:35:33.220 They're going to find

00:35:33.720 something else.

00:35:34.960 That is my fear,

00:35:36.860 is that they're now saying,

00:35:38.160 well, Omicron is going

00:35:38.880 to be around for a long time

00:35:40.280 and it'll be with us

00:35:41.160 and we need to preserve

00:35:42.140 these precautions.

00:35:43.280 We've had the flu for years,

00:35:44.480 for God's sakes.

00:35:45.260 You know, you get the flu,

00:35:46.360 you get over it

00:35:47.080 or you get it treated

00:35:48.260 or whatever.

00:35:49.300 There are things in existence.

00:35:51.080 We can't raise people's fears

00:35:53.160 so that people have to live 0.94

00:35:53.900 and fear all the time.

00:35:54.860 That is no way to live

00:35:55.980 and I fear that governments

00:35:57.880 will go that route

00:35:59.160 to strengthen their control.

00:36:01.940 You mentioned earlier, Anne,

00:36:03.280 that the public is very much

00:36:05.580 growing in its resistance to this

00:36:07.340 and that story is not being told

00:36:09.020 in the mainstream media.

00:36:10.520 And I would certainly agree with that,

00:36:12.220 but I also at the same time

00:36:13.700 remain a bit pessimistic

00:36:15.020 because I have found

00:36:16.260 there are a lot of people

00:36:17.260 that will use that line

00:36:18.680 we were talking about earlier

00:36:19.760 of if you have nothing to hide.

00:36:21.080 A lot of people

00:36:21.800 that generally speaking

00:36:22.740 have not just welcomed,

00:36:24.480 but in some cases

00:36:25.400 invited some of these restrictions.

00:36:28.280 Do you find yourself optimistic

00:36:30.200 or pessimistic generally

00:36:31.980 about where society is

00:36:33.540 and where the culture is

00:36:34.780 on these issues?

00:36:36.140 You know, I've always been

00:36:37.440 the eternal optimist

00:36:38.500 because you have to be,

00:36:39.580 otherwise life is too depressing.

00:36:41.500 I'm getting very concerned,

00:36:43.020 I must admit,

00:36:43.960 with the direction this is taking

00:36:45.440 and the growth

00:36:47.160 and the idea as well,

00:36:48.140 I've got nothing to hide.

00:36:49.340 I remember one of the first

00:36:50.980 privacy commissioners of New Zealand.

00:36:52.800 We were at a conference together

00:36:53.960 and he said,

00:36:55.720 if people say that to you,

00:36:57.000 tell them, you know,

00:36:58.260 don't you go to bed

00:36:59.500 with your husband?

00:37:00.100 Don't you have something to do?

00:37:01.200 Don't you have certain things

00:37:02.040 you'd like to keep private?

00:37:03.080 For God's sake,

00:37:03.660 do you have no life for yourself?

00:37:05.520 There are things in every life

00:37:07.500 that people choose to keep private.

00:37:09.680 It's no one else's business.

00:37:11.760 And when it comes to medical data,

00:37:13.360 that should be right at the top.

00:37:15.020 I fear we're going to have

00:37:16.880 ongoing problems here,

00:37:18.220 but we have to stay strong

00:37:19.380 and vigilant.

00:37:20.400 Please, I urge you,

00:37:22.000 never give up.

00:37:23.400 Well, just on the note

00:37:24.560 of medical data,

00:37:25.740 I know when the government,

00:37:27.160 which basically has been

00:37:28.300 fairly universal across Canada

00:37:29.960 among provinces,

00:37:31.220 moved towards QR codes,

00:37:32.960 so you can no longer even

00:37:33.960 hand over just a piece of paper.

00:37:35.480 You need to have a QR code.

00:37:37.280 The government would say,

00:37:38.680 well, you know,

00:37:39.300 we're making sure

00:37:40.220 that none of your other data

00:37:41.780 will be stored on this.

00:37:43.100 And I always thought

00:37:43.980 that was missing the point,

00:37:45.220 that the vaccination certificate

00:37:46.940 is itself a piece of data.

00:37:49.440 It is itself a piece of information

00:37:51.500 about your medical choices.

00:37:53.080 And there does seem

00:37:54.160 to be something missing there,

00:37:55.420 that it's not about

00:37:56.320 how you implement the program

00:37:58.420 as much as the existence

00:37:59.500 of this program

00:38:00.580 and I would say

00:38:01.380 the segregation itself.

00:38:03.340 Yeah, QR codes, please.

00:38:05.440 I mean, why do you have

00:38:06.280 to present a QR code?

00:38:07.140 It is absurd.

00:38:08.540 They are so fearful.

00:38:10.260 They want to retain this data

00:38:11.500 and have it linked

00:38:13.140 with individuals.

00:38:13.720 And when you go to places

00:38:15.240 and they ask you

00:38:17.000 for your QR code,

00:38:17.860 they also ask you for ID,

00:38:19.920 driver's license,

00:38:21.000 health data, whatever,

00:38:22.220 with a picture on it.

00:38:23.240 So that can be linked

00:38:24.640 and the potential

00:38:25.280 for tracking your whereabouts,

00:38:27.500 your activities,

00:38:28.280 surveillance mounts dramatically.

00:38:31.720 So where do you think,

00:38:33.700 if I can try to tap

00:38:35.580 into that optimism you mentioned,

00:38:37.160 where do you think

00:38:37.960 that the biggest point is here

00:38:40.160 that we can start

00:38:40.860 breaking down on this?

00:38:41.840 Because governments have generally

00:38:42.980 been fairly unrepentant

00:38:44.820 and while there have been

00:38:45.520 some slight disagreements

00:38:46.840 in how provinces

00:38:47.920 have handled this,

00:38:48.840 liberal, conservative, NDP,

00:38:50.300 they've all basically gone

00:38:51.660 the same direction.

00:38:52.880 Every province and territory

00:38:53.940 has a vaccine passport.

00:38:55.360 Not everyone has gone

00:38:56.660 the way Quebec has yet

00:38:58.000 by talking about

00:38:58.920 mandating or fining.

00:39:00.760 But generally speaking,

00:39:01.720 we're seeing a pretty unified approach

00:39:03.720 on a lot of these measures.

00:39:05.400 Where do you think

00:39:05.940 the best way to break

00:39:07.180 that apart is?

00:39:08.220 I think slowly

00:39:10.780 the lifting of vaccine passports

00:39:13.420 will begin

00:39:14.720 and it will take some time.

00:39:16.260 I want to be clear.

00:39:17.740 I think what people

00:39:18.520 have to insist upon

00:39:19.800 is that their freedoms

00:39:21.860 are invaluable.

00:39:24.240 That health data

00:39:25.420 associated with your medical conditions,

00:39:28.060 with the choices you make,

00:39:29.540 this should be yours

00:39:30.480 to freely make

00:39:31.740 and not have to display

00:39:33.900 to the world

00:39:34.720 what choices you've made.

00:39:36.040 This is very personal information.

00:39:38.740 And so when I approach people

00:39:40.100 along those lines

00:39:41.340 that this is health data

00:39:42.740 that should not necessarily

00:39:44.640 have to be shared.

00:39:46.260 If you want to do that,

00:39:47.240 look, I always tell people

00:39:47.840 I'm not anti-vax,

00:39:48.800 I'm pro-choice.

00:39:49.820 I want to preserve our choices,

00:39:51.660 preserve our privacy

00:39:53.020 and our freedom.

00:39:53.900 When you take that route,

00:39:55.220 people generally

00:39:56.120 come into agreement.

00:39:57.580 So that's what I'm

00:39:58.420 urging people to do.

00:40:00.160 Yeah, and I would also add

00:40:01.520 to that as well.

00:40:02.320 When these measures are lifted,

00:40:04.060 in a lot of cases,

00:40:05.040 governments will conveniently say 0.88

00:40:07.360 that they can lift them

00:40:08.340 because they worked.

00:40:09.540 And this is what we've seen

00:40:10.580 at the federal level

00:40:11.360 with hotel quarantine,

00:40:12.800 for example.

00:40:13.260 The federal government

00:40:14.120 was told by its own expert panel

00:40:15.740 it wasn't working

00:40:16.580 and then lifts it

00:40:17.680 and says it's no longer necessary

00:40:19.140 without actually dealing

00:40:20.340 with the underlying issues with.

00:40:22.220 And I would say that voters,

00:40:24.040 citizens,

00:40:24.320 have to put some pressure

00:40:25.380 on governments

00:40:26.400 when that happens.

00:40:27.340 When they lift them,

00:40:28.440 don't let them bring them back.

00:40:29.860 The second we get another scare

00:40:31.360 of, oh, you know,

00:40:32.020 a case count here

00:40:32.860 or this variant

00:40:33.660 or whatever the case may be.

00:40:35.740 I couldn't agree more,

00:40:37.320 but I also want to remind everyone,

00:40:39.680 you're not seeing it

00:40:40.460 on mainstream media,

00:40:41.400 but there's thousands

00:40:42.620 and tens of thousands

00:40:43.900 of people opposing this.

00:40:45.400 There are massive protests

00:40:46.540 on the weekend,

00:40:47.780 not just abroad,

00:40:49.020 in Europe, et cetera,

00:40:49.680 in Canada, in Toronto.

00:40:51.640 And so people are beginning

00:40:53.340 to object to having

00:40:54.860 to reveal their personal

00:40:55.880 sensitive medical data

00:40:57.640 and share it widely

00:40:58.640 and just accept

00:40:59.500 what the government

00:41:00.100 is telling us.

00:41:00.960 We have to preserve

00:41:01.920 that resistance.

00:41:03.920 I think that's an incredibly

00:41:05.560 important note to end on.

00:41:06.900 And I have to give another plug

00:41:08.060 because that piece

00:41:08.980 you wrote in October

00:41:09.760 is still just as relevant,

00:41:11.560 if not more so today.

00:41:12.620 Rise up, freedom must prevail.

00:41:15.060 And I think it's very,

00:41:15.960 it's been very informative

00:41:16.820 just even for me personally.

00:41:18.020 And the importance

00:41:18.960 to look at privacy

00:41:19.940 and freedom

00:41:20.660 is very interlinked.

00:41:22.360 Anne Kabukian

00:41:22.940 is the executive director

00:41:24.140 of the Global Privacy

00:41:25.660 and Security

00:41:26.240 by Design Center.

00:41:27.840 Thank you so much, Anne.

00:41:28.940 It's a true pleasure

00:41:29.740 to have you on.

00:41:30.700 Thank you so much, Andrew.

00:41:31.960 It's always a pleasure.

00:41:33.520 Anne Kabukian.

00:41:34.220 Wow, I already know

00:41:36.000 she's going to be a guest 0.99

00:41:37.040 that all of you are asking

00:41:38.000 for me to invite back.

00:41:39.900 And she's welcome on anytime.

00:41:41.380 I spoke to her

00:41:42.120 a couple of times

00:41:42.980 on my old radio show

00:41:44.680 that I did

00:41:45.160 for a company

00:41:46.060 that won't be named right now.

00:41:47.760 And she was a tremendous guest.

00:41:49.360 And I think increasingly

00:41:50.280 I've just been retweeting her.

00:41:51.720 She's been retweeting me.

00:41:53.020 And I was reading her column.

00:41:54.660 She doesn't write a lot

00:41:55.420 on her sub stack,

00:41:56.180 but when she does,

00:41:56.840 it's always a winner.

00:41:57.520 And I knew I had

00:41:58.700 to get her on

00:41:59.260 and I am glad I did.

00:42:01.420 That was a mic drop moment

00:42:02.680 or a few mic drop moments

00:42:03.920 as a matter of fact.

00:42:05.180 And with that,

00:42:05.840 I'm going to drop the mic now.

00:42:06.980 Not as dramatically.

00:42:08.100 We've got to end things there,

00:42:09.340 but we will be back

00:42:10.080 in a couple days time

00:42:11.020 with more of Canada's

00:42:12.520 most irreverent talk show.

00:42:14.260 This is the Andrew Lawton

00:42:15.120 Show on True North.

00:42:16.080 Thank you.

00:42:16.520 God bless and good day.

00:42:18.340 Thanks for listening

00:42:19.120 to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:42:20.560 Support the program

00:42:21.380 by donating to True North

00:42:22.600 at www.tnc.news.

00:42:25.780 We'll be right back.

Juno News - January 25, 2022

Truckers' convoy isn't about vaccines – it's about freedom

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