Juno News - Trudeau's national security adviser claims Convoy was rife with ＂violence＂ and ＂weapons＂

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.440 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.820 Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show,

00:00:17.680 the Andrew Lawton Show, here on True North on this Wednesday, January 31st.

00:00:23.280 Coming to you live from D.C., I'll be giving you a little update

00:00:27.080 on the great climate change free speech trial of the century in a few moments' time.

00:00:32.420 I had yesterday one of my colleagues remarked that my chair looks very Klaus Schwabian,

00:00:37.060 so I assure you this is not just me holing up in Davos.

00:00:40.520 I am in Washington, D.C., which is a different type of elite-filled dungeon,

00:00:44.800 but we'll save that commentary for my return.

00:00:47.860 Got to make sure I get out of here alive.

00:00:49.680 It's good to talk to you. We have a few great things planned for the program today.

00:00:53.920 We'll do a deep dive into what the science is and, therefore, what it means to follow it.

00:00:59.920 Now, that's going to be an interview in the context of public health,

00:01:03.140 but kind of applies to the climate discussion as well, certainly.

00:01:07.020 And we're seeing, as we've talked about on the show in the past with Mark Marano,

00:01:10.460 an increasing overlap between the people that want to control you

00:01:13.360 under the auspices of public health science

00:01:15.380 and those who want to do it under the auspices of so-called climate science as well.

00:01:20.440 Well, but I want to begin talking about this rather, I want to say bizarre,

00:01:25.240 but I actually think this whole interview is par for the course.

00:01:28.520 This interview done by Jody Thomas, who was, at the time of the interview,

00:01:32.580 the National Security and Intelligence Advisor to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

00:01:37.920 Now, Jody Thomas, just to put some context here, she's left the post now,

00:01:42.620 but she was in this job.

00:01:44.480 Now, she is not someone who had a background in intelligence or security or law enforcement

00:01:50.220 or anything like that.

00:01:51.060 She is a career bureaucrat.

00:01:52.460 I looked at her CV on the government website,

00:01:55.380 and she was a bureaucrat in Passport Canada,

00:01:57.840 and then she went on to the Coast Guard,

00:01:59.540 and eventually she ended up in the role she occupied for the last couple of years,

00:02:04.540 being Justin Trudeau's National Security and Intelligence Advisor.

00:02:09.720 Now, she's a bureaucrat, not a partisan, 0.85

00:02:12.120 so she's supposed to be somewhat more impartial,

00:02:15.120 although her job is to provide advice to the Prime Minister,

00:02:18.460 which the Prime Minister then filters into his own decision-making process

00:02:23.400 and turns into policy.

00:02:25.720 But we've seen from Jody Thomas in the past a desire to be,

00:02:30.700 I think, more in line with the government's talking points than anything else.

00:02:35.140 This was especially true when she testified before the Public Order Emergency Commission.

00:02:39.200 She was one of the only experts that actually came forward

00:02:42.460 and started talking about why, yes, the government was right to put the Emergencies Act in play.

00:02:47.760 Now, you fast forward to the last week,

00:02:50.300 and the Emergencies Act has been ruled by the federal court

00:02:52.780 to have been unlawfully introduced, the measures unconstitutional.

00:02:57.700 And it so happens that Jody Thomas was doing an exit interview on CTV with Vashti Capellos.

00:03:02.980 Now, I'm going to play this whole clip for you.

00:03:05.300 It's not the entirety of the interview, but it's the entirety of the interview that has to do with the convoy.

00:03:10.900 And I was at first going to, like, do little snippets of it,

00:03:13.720 play, like, you know, 15 seconds react, 20 seconds react,

00:03:16.500 but I'm like, I don't want anyone to accuse me of taking this out of context or cutting it up.

00:03:21.840 I'm going to give you the full, like, two-and-a-half-minute-long segment here,

00:03:26.420 and we'll talk about it afterwards.

00:03:27.980 Please do bear with me from this, because this is incredibly revealing and dangerously so.

00:03:34.360 You were advising the government during the time that they invoked that act.

00:03:37.720 Why did you specifically feel it did meet that bar?

00:03:41.980 So, I think, as I said in my POG testimony,

00:03:45.220 what we were seeing in terms of activity on the ground and intelligence was very clear.

00:03:49.820 There was a huge, huge occupation here in Ottawa.

00:03:55.200 It was increasingly violent.

00:03:57.880 We were starting to hear language about weapons being in the trucks.

00:04:01.740 We had the arrest in Coutts, which was a significant weapons cache and very concerning.

00:04:08.220 The charges that have been laid there are indicative of what was going on and what was being planned.

00:04:14.480 And we were seeing daily pop-ups of, we're going to occupy this, we're going to occupy that.

00:04:19.940 Bridges, rail lines, more people moving across the country, east and west, to converge on Ottawa and Toronto.

00:04:25.900 In our view, it was national in scope.

00:04:29.500 It was growing, and we had to take action to end it.

00:04:34.960 There was an economic threat to Canada.

00:04:36.860 There was a security threat to Canada.

00:04:39.100 There was a reputational threat to Canada.

00:04:41.020 Canada, but what we didn't know was as concerning as what we did know, and we knew a lot.

00:04:48.200 What do you mean by that?

00:04:49.140 We knew a lot about what the plans were, that these people were going to stay.

00:04:55.440 There was the whole group of people who thought they were going to overthrow the government.

00:05:01.600 Obviously, that wasn't going to happen, but they were here to stay,

00:05:04.520 and they were using intimidation and violence and threat to ensure that the occupation persisted.

00:05:13.500 And we were seeing increasingly what we would call radicalized language from people about,

00:05:21.500 we're going to kill, we'll do whatever we need to do.

00:05:24.220 And the connectiveness or the inspiration that the pop-ups were getting from what was going on in Ottawa

00:05:34.080 left us very concerned for the national stability.

00:05:37.320 And economic security is national security.

00:05:39.660 National security is economic security.

00:05:41.980 People couldn't work.

00:05:43.040 People couldn't go to work.

00:05:43.900 People couldn't walk the streets.

00:05:45.040 People couldn't cross bridges.

00:05:46.520 The economy wasn't being affected in the auto industry.

00:05:49.600 Those things are significant.

00:05:50.520 Where do I even begin?

00:05:54.540 So what Jody Thomas is saying there, and let me just point blank say,

00:06:00.840 it is dangerous to me that we have someone who is in this role in this country who just makes things up.

00:06:07.580 That's literally what she was doing there. 0.96

00:06:09.860 This is a woman who either is so woefully unaware of the reality and the facts on the ground 1.00

00:06:15.800 that she says govern her decisions, or just does not care.

00:06:19.060 At the very beginning, she talks about the convoy, and I'll use her words here,

00:06:23.140 being, quote, increasingly violent.

00:06:27.100 We were starting to hear language about weapons being in the trucks.

00:06:32.800 This was a rumor.

00:06:34.720 And she says language.

00:06:35.820 Okay, maybe someone said it.

00:06:37.740 If all the police actions that took place there,

00:06:40.540 I am not aware of any weapons charges,

00:06:43.180 certainly no significant weapons charges, if there were any at all.

00:06:47.040 But this idea that there was this cache of weapons in Ottawa in the trucks,

00:06:52.120 which she's alluding to there being language of, is fundamentally untrue.

00:06:55.620 Now, she, of course, mentions the Coutts situation.

00:06:58.100 And in the case of Coutts, yes, we did have police make arrests and seize a large cache of weapons.

00:07:02.800 Now, those charges are still pending.

00:07:04.920 The trial's underway.

00:07:06.080 This is another issue entirely.

00:07:08.780 But Coutts and Ottawa were separate entities.

00:07:11.640 And Coutts was, by the way, dealt with without the Emergencies Act at all.

00:07:16.780 But increasingly violent is the line from the one-time National Security and Intelligence Advisor in Canada.

00:07:24.120 You go to the next little bit of her interview here,

00:07:26.640 and she talks about why it was necessary,

00:07:29.300 why the government needed to step in to do something to end.

00:07:32.620 And she lists three things that were happening.

00:07:36.040 The first is a security threat.

00:07:39.200 The other is an economic security threat.

00:07:42.540 And the other is reputational harm to Canada.

00:07:47.260 Now, the Emergencies Act, by the way, does not really apply to economic harm.

00:07:51.900 This is a government talking point that she's parroting,

00:07:54.640 a Trudeau-Freeland talking point that she's parroting,

00:07:57.260 that economic harm constitutes a threat to the security of Canada,

00:08:00.800 when that's not really a plaintext reading of the legislation.

00:08:04.220 But then reputational harm.

00:08:06.760 So if Justin Trudeau is embarrassed, that's a national emergency?

00:08:11.480 And that's something that we all need to have soldiers,

00:08:14.700 well, not soldiers, but we all need to have riot police in the street to deal with

00:08:18.020 because Justin Trudeau is embarrassed?

00:08:20.180 No, a reputational harm to Canada,

00:08:23.180 if such a thing existed there, is not a national emergency.

00:08:26.540 But she lists that in the same breath as a security threat,

00:08:29.880 which doesn't really exist because, as we know,

00:08:31.680 there were no violent acts that were increasing.

00:08:35.440 There was no violence in general that was increasing.

00:08:38.100 And this language of weapons wasn't the case.

00:08:40.520 But she uses that in the same breath as economic harm and reputational harm. 0.96

00:08:46.160 Now, she does talk about the fact, which I would agree with her with,

00:08:49.100 that people in this demonstration said they were not going anywhere.

00:08:52.160 They wanted to stay.

00:08:53.080 They wanted to entrench.

00:08:53.980 Now, that was a stated goal of the Freedom Convoy.

00:08:57.280 We aren't going to go anywhere.

00:08:58.820 But then she goes on to say that they were using,

00:09:02.120 and again, I'm quoting Jody Thomas's words here,

00:09:04.900 they were using intimidation and violence and threat

00:09:08.740 to ensure that the occupation persisted.

00:09:12.740 She says this with no evidence or justification or support whatsoever.

00:09:17.120 We're supposed to just take her at her word that this was taking place.

00:09:21.140 It's intimidation and violence and threat.

00:09:24.940 And then to cap it all off, she says,

00:09:27.320 and again, I'm quoting directly from Jody Thomas,

00:09:29.480 we were seeing increasingly what we would call radicalized language about,

00:09:35.860 quote, 0.95

00:09:36.320 we're going to kill. 1.00

00:09:38.140 We'll do whatever we need to do. 0.98

00:09:40.660 I listened to hours and hours and hours,

00:09:45.160 days and days,

00:09:45.880 weeks and weeks of testimony before the Public Order Emergency Commission.

00:09:49.520 And this did not come up.

00:09:51.220 This idea that there was an increasing rhetoric of people making serious threats

00:09:55.420 connected to the protests that they were going to kill.

00:09:57.880 Now, I'm not saying there weren't people on Twitter or an email inboxes

00:10:01.480 that may have said things as they say throughout the year.

00:10:04.880 And is, by the way, unacceptable and unjustifiable and threats should be prosecuted

00:10:10.120 and investigated in the other order.

00:10:12.260 But this was not representative of the convoy protest.

00:10:17.400 So we have a government now that has lost a major court battle

00:10:21.540 in terms of whether it had the legal and constitutional right

00:10:25.360 to invoke the Emergencies Act.

00:10:27.180 The chief advisor on national security and intelligence issues,

00:10:30.620 a woman who is basically giving the Trudeau line to justify what the government did 0.97

00:10:37.020 has been entirely consumed by this narrative that is fundamentally untrue.

00:10:42.980 Now, look, maybe she's got access to all of these details

00:10:45.780 and all this information that has never been made public.

00:10:47.840 But given that there had never been any charges

00:10:49.740 that reflect what she has described seeing and experiencing,

00:10:54.500 which she's just described and we're supposed to take her word for,

00:10:57.440 there are no charges to support that any of this was happening.

00:11:02.520 So I don't know who's going to replace this woman 1.00

00:11:06.160 in terms of what their approach to the role is going to be.

00:11:09.760 But this is not a country that we can have a great deal of confidence in

00:11:14.160 as taking national security and intelligence seriously

00:11:17.100 when this is what advice is being passed to the government.

00:11:20.620 No surprise, the Emergencies Act ended up being put in play

00:11:23.800 when this was just such a distorted and one-sided view of what was going on

00:11:28.160 that anyone who was on the streets themselves knows was not there.

00:11:31.500 Again, I mean, economic harm.

00:11:32.780 She wasn't even talking about borders.

00:11:33.980 She's saying people weren't allowed to like walk down the street and go to work,

00:11:36.800 which is also untrue.

00:11:38.120 You had members of parliament that were walking back and forth

00:11:40.420 through this thing all day, every day.

00:11:41.720 Doesn't mean it was always pleasant because these people just didn't like you

00:11:45.200 and didn't want you to be governing in the way that you were,

00:11:49.180 but they were allowed to come and go.

00:11:51.260 This was not a situation in which people were being prevented from going.

00:11:56.000 Now, some businesses chose to close down themselves.

00:11:59.300 By the way, the businesses that decided to stay open during the convoy

00:12:02.660 made a ton of money.

00:12:04.380 I'm thinking in particular of that one shawarma shop on,

00:12:06.720 I think, Albert Street, which just had like a lineup out the door all day, every day,

00:12:10.440 because they weren't afraid of a few truckers in downtown Ottawa.

00:12:15.160 So that, again, this is, I saw that interview and it was just a couple of days ago

00:12:19.460 and I was in disbelief.

00:12:21.120 Now I'm just assuming everything's like AI generated because I was like,

00:12:24.500 there's no way.

00:12:24.980 But then I remembered her public order emergency commission testimony

00:12:27.540 and was saying, yeah, okay.

00:12:28.960 That was probably a pretty genuine reflection of what she thinks.

00:12:32.840 But had to start off on that.

00:12:34.720 As I mentioned at the outset, I am right now in Washington, D.C.,

00:12:39.080 where we are about halfway through the third week

00:12:42.100 of Michael Mann's defamation lawsuit against Mark Stein and Rand Simberg.

00:12:47.120 I gave you yesterday and Monday a bit of a primer on the case.

00:12:50.420 So I'll just, instead of rehashing that, I'll just defer you

00:12:52.940 or refer you back to those if you want a bit of a catch-up here.

00:12:56.580 Yesterday we had the plaintiff, so that's Michael Mann,

00:12:59.280 who's suing Mark Stein and Rand Simberg, continue to make his case.

00:13:03.180 They're almost done on their side, but the delays on this have been quite something.

00:13:06.920 So they had Rand Simberg, who's Mark Stein's co-defendant

00:13:10.460 and someone I'm not as familiar with on the stand.

00:13:13.940 And he had written that initial blog post that compared Michael Mann to Jerry Sandusky.

00:13:19.220 And so far as the school's cover-up of Jerry Sandusky's conduct, which was atrocious,

00:13:25.880 he was basically saying, well, if they're going to cover that up,

00:13:28.120 what won't they cover up?

00:13:29.120 And he was linking that to the academic issues.

00:13:31.740 Again, you can agree or disagree, but there is a fair comment question here

00:13:35.600 and a free speech question.

00:13:38.680 And then by the end of the day, Rand Simberg is done,

00:13:41.840 and they brought in this expert who I feel like the jury was just,

00:13:44.640 their eyes were glazing over because he was going on about like thermodynamics.

00:13:48.060 And they're trying to make this case that, oh, well, Michael Mann is the eminent scientist

00:13:52.640 and he's so eminently eminent that he's the most science-y scientist out there.

00:13:56.440 And anyone who criticizes him has to be some, you know, backwoods right-wing climate science-denying yokel.

00:14:02.160 And it's been interesting to see how transparent Michael Mann's team has been

00:14:06.900 and trying to basically make him out to be the gatekeeper of science

00:14:10.040 because there are plenty of scientists who have disagreed with his rather alarmist

00:14:14.660 and extreme view of global warming.

00:14:17.260 This idea that there was never any global warming,

00:14:19.360 and then in the last century, it just shot up.

00:14:22.040 And then we had the, again, it's literally the graph that was at the core of the Al Gore movie,

00:14:27.500 An Inconvenient Truth.

00:14:29.300 And even when scientists, not, you know, climate denier scientists,

00:14:33.180 but, you know, normal scientists have said,

00:14:34.720 well, yes, you know, I agree with global warming,

00:14:36.560 but I don't quite take it as far as you do.

00:14:39.940 He has vilified them.

00:14:42.160 He has maligned them and tarred them.

00:14:43.780 And some of those scientists are actually going to be speaking for the defendants

00:14:48.920 because they're saying, listen, I'm not like one of these right-wing Fox News types,

00:14:52.680 but I have grave concerns with the methodology and the conclusion of this research,

00:14:58.400 which was the research that Mark Stein was criticizing that got him sued for defamation.

00:15:04.820 So all of this, again, I go back to, it's a jury trial,

00:15:08.860 so watching the jury is always a bit interesting.

00:15:11.060 But I go back to wondering what on earth the point of it is in their view

00:15:16.300 because they're going to be thinking, hang on,

00:15:18.480 a guy said something you didn't like about you in a blog post 12 years ago,

00:15:21.880 and your life has just improved at every step of the way beyond then.

00:15:28.580 Your life has just continued to improve.

00:15:30.540 You've made more money.

00:15:31.540 You've become more famous.

00:15:33.160 Your work has been incorporated in more government policy.

00:15:36.100 Not that I support that, but that's what's happening here.

00:15:38.740 And that's basically where we are on this.

00:15:41.200 So the jury, I'm thinking, like, how do we have a defamation case

00:15:45.280 in which the person who has allegedly been defamed has not suffered anything

00:15:49.380 and has, if anything, come out better off on the back end of it.

00:15:53.440 So there was, yesterday, again, there was a fair bit of procedural stuff

00:15:57.220 that I don't think is worth going into because they're debating,

00:15:59.880 oh, well, can this witness testify?

00:16:01.980 And is this going to be an expert witness or a fact witness?

00:16:04.220 So hopefully in tomorrow's update,

00:16:05.840 I'll have a bit more of a substantive set of details and chronologies to share with you.

00:16:12.900 But I did want to get to that.

00:16:14.680 But as I said, I mean, what we have now in society

00:16:17.260 are these gatekeepers in the science world,

00:16:21.160 people that believe they are the only ones,

00:16:22.920 they are the oracles,

00:16:23.800 they are the only ones that can hold the truth,

00:16:26.120 and we are supposed to all just fall in line behind them.

00:16:29.620 And this is especially true on public health issues.

00:16:32.880 So I wanted to kick to an interview I recorded

00:16:35.620 just before I left for Washington, D.C.,

00:16:37.840 which we'll get to right after the break.

00:16:39.800 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:49.380 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:52.220 Well, what has been one of the most common refrains of the last few years?

00:16:57.140 Some variation of trust the science or follow the science,

00:17:01.520 as though science is this universal and clear oracle

00:17:05.540 that we can all take our cues from on anything and everything.

00:17:08.120 Well, was science itself the problem in a way?

00:17:12.880 There was a fascinating essay from the C2C Journal

00:17:16.100 written by public policy analyst Margaret Coppola

00:17:19.620 that makes that very point.

00:17:21.960 The essay is called A Pandemic Caused by Science with a...

00:17:26.200 I've tried to do the inflection there

00:17:27.560 so as to indicate the question mark at the end of the piece's title there,

00:17:31.640 but it was a fascinating read,

00:17:32.980 and I thought I would dig into it with Margaret herself,

00:17:35.320 who joins me now.

00:17:36.040 Margaret, wonderful to talk to you.

00:17:37.740 Thanks so much for coming on today.

00:17:39.540 My pleasure.

00:17:41.080 Now, let's refer to...

00:17:43.460 Let's talk first off about what it is you're referring to.

00:17:45.840 When you say or suggest that science itself may have been to blame,

00:17:49.440 what are you getting at?

00:17:52.300 The crux of the argument boils down to the use of a technology

00:17:57.340 called gain-of-function science.

00:17:59.980 And what gain-of-function is it involves the pulling together of different viruses

00:18:06.280 and taking out different bits of them,

00:18:09.060 splicing and dicing them,

00:18:10.300 so that you come up with the worst and worst of each virus.

00:18:15.420 So you end up with a synthetic virus

00:18:17.540 that has the attributes of the other two.

00:18:21.840 Now, in this case, it is near certainty that gain-of-function technology

00:18:28.860 was involved in whatever was going on at the Wuhan labs

00:18:35.920 and between American and Chinese scientists in Wuhan,

00:18:43.300 working on this mysterious virus,

00:18:46.700 which turned out in the end to have all the properties of SARS-CoV-2,

00:18:53.200 which, of course, as we know, was the final cause of COVID-19.

00:18:59.560 That, I mean, let's talk about that lab for a moment,

00:19:02.700 because at the beginning, we were all told that the culprit

00:19:05.340 was a bat or a pangolin, basically,

00:19:07.700 was some horrendous twist of fate that led to a very unfortunate situation

00:19:13.260 at one of the wet markets in Wuhan.

00:19:15.340 And very early on, people were skeptical of that

00:19:18.800 and suggested that this could have been a creation of a lab

00:19:22.740 intentionally or unintentionally leaked.

00:19:25.160 And what was fascinating with that argument

00:19:26.900 is that as more and more evidence mounted,

00:19:30.320 this thing that was a conspiracy theory

00:19:32.520 at some point in 2020 has effectively become an accepted fact,

00:19:38.880 or at least the most plausible scenario here.

00:19:41.760 Now, do we know anything beyond that

00:19:45.460 as far as was this carelessness?

00:19:48.020 Was it perhaps intentional?

00:19:52.220 Difficult to say.

00:19:53.720 Everybody is erring on the side of giving the Chinese, 1.00

00:19:58.280 you know, giving the Chinese a lot of leeway. 0.88

00:20:00.380 That is, that it was an accidental release or an accidental leak.

00:20:06.040 Release implies it wasn't accidental, an accidental leak.

00:20:11.240 And, I mean, certainly, whether this is done

00:20:14.520 in the name of prudent geopolitical maneuvering

00:20:19.280 or whether it's another kind of cover-up,

00:20:24.540 we won't ever know.

00:20:25.780 My sense is that both the Chinese and the Americans

00:20:31.720 are caught in a stalemate of mutual culpability.

00:20:37.340 That is, in the sense that we knew, though, for certain

00:20:41.020 that the Americans funded the work that was going on in Wuhan

00:20:47.180 through a series of elaborate and arcane roundabout ways

00:20:52.680 of getting money to Wuhan

00:20:54.200 through an intermediary called Echo Health Alliance,

00:21:01.040 an NGO, that an NGO.

00:21:03.640 So, A, the Americans financed it.

00:21:07.300 There are people coming out and saying that boldly,

00:21:10.120 although not everybody.

00:21:11.280 The official word from the American government

00:21:14.500 is that they had nothing to do with it.

00:21:17.800 But there are some who are being intellectually honest,

00:21:20.760 like, for instance, Robert Redfield,

00:21:22.680 who was the former director of the Center for Disease Control

00:21:27.600 of one of the arch agencies within the American government

00:21:31.660 on the health side,

00:21:33.220 who was saying out loud and in your face,

00:21:36.880 we funded it.

00:21:39.100 And then, on the other hand,

00:21:40.760 you had the work that was going on in Wuhan,

00:21:42.980 which is not being denied by the Chinese.

00:21:46.040 Shi Zheng Li, who was the chief scientist,

00:21:48.540 again, a geneticist of Mary,

00:21:50.720 an accomplished geneticist,

00:21:52.560 again, who's good at the splicing and the dicing of genes.

00:21:58.860 And she's not denying that they did the work there,

00:22:01.500 but she is denying that it was their fault

00:22:03.680 or that it was ever leaked.

00:22:04.780 And she's saying, no, no, no,

00:22:06.720 it came from the bats over in this mine.

00:22:10.940 And that was the real source.

00:22:13.640 At least that's the last excuse I've heard from her on this one.

00:22:17.940 So, but yes, now, in all fairness,

00:22:22.500 you know, it made a lot of sense to think in the first instance

00:22:25.480 that it might have come from an animal or bat host.

00:22:29.420 This is where a lot of pandemics have come from.

00:22:33.080 This is what the Spanish flu was originated with,

00:22:38.580 you know, flea-infested rodents.

00:22:40.920 And they jumped to,

00:22:42.740 that then jumped to humans.

00:22:45.660 So this is not abnormal for this kind of thing to happen.

00:22:50.360 I mean, just even thinking in terms of rabies.

00:22:52.580 I mean, that's a virus that jumps to a human from an animal.

00:22:55.620 So, I mean, it made sense for a lot of people to think that right away.

00:22:59.260 So fair enough.

00:23:00.440 But, you know, getting down to brass tacks

00:23:04.000 and getting into the science of the actual virus itself

00:23:08.280 and the fact that it has certain genetic components,

00:23:12.760 which now other scientists have sliced and diced and said,

00:23:17.080 hey, wait a minute,

00:23:18.620 this looks like it was pretty well man-made.

00:23:22.200 And now, even since the writing of my article,

00:23:25.620 there has been additional information has come out.

00:23:27.980 You'll remember in the article,

00:23:30.080 I refer to two key, key scientific papers.

00:23:34.720 Nobody was hiding this, by the way,

00:23:36.480 that this science was going on.

00:23:38.660 Papers dating way back to 2005,

00:23:41.660 you know, they were looking for viruses in bats

00:23:43.980 and the Zheng Li and a renowned geneticist

00:23:51.080 located in the University of North Carolina, Ralph Baric.

00:23:54.740 They had been working together for quite some time

00:23:57.140 on stuff like this.

00:23:59.480 So, you know, nobody was being untoward

00:24:02.920 or, you know, trying to hide anything here.

00:24:08.820 There were two papers that were absolutely devastating.

00:24:12.840 One that said, hey, we've created this great thing,

00:24:16.840 a chimera.

00:24:17.600 We've come,

00:24:18.040 we figured out how to put two viruses together

00:24:19.900 to come up with a virus that's even worse.

00:24:23.820 And in this case,

00:24:24.960 it was pulling together the elements of the SARS virus,

00:24:28.200 which caused the pandemic in 2002 to 2004.

00:24:32.500 They took that virus

00:24:33.700 and then spliced and diced it with another virus.

00:24:36.680 We're not sure where that one came from.

00:24:38.800 And lo and behold,

00:24:41.140 it came out looking an awful lot like SARS-CoV-2,

00:24:44.460 or at least became SARS-CoV-2.

00:24:46.960 I want to just go back to the fundamentals here,

00:24:49.440 because, I mean,

00:24:50.360 it's easy when you're talking about a term

00:24:52.140 that's not familiar to people,

00:24:53.360 which I think gain of function is certainly,

00:24:55.420 or a few years ago was not familiar to a lot of people.

00:24:58.580 And you're describing the function very,

00:25:00.320 very calmly and very accurately.

00:25:02.080 But a lot of people would hear this and be like,

00:25:04.100 what on earth would you expect to happen

00:25:06.000 if you're mucking around in the engine room like that?

00:25:08.920 And I'm wondering,

00:25:10.160 what are the noble intentions of this?

00:25:12.560 If there were to be any,

00:25:14.160 or is it about trying to understand

00:25:16.740 the virulence of these things to protect against them?

00:25:20.080 Because certainly it's easy to understand

00:25:21.760 in a military context or a biowarfare context,

00:25:25.240 what the value of this is.

00:25:26.880 What's their defense

00:25:28.180 for why they're doing this research in the first place

00:25:30.580 and why it justifies the alliance

00:25:32.820 between United States scientists and Chinese scientists?

00:25:36.020 Well, ostensibly it was to create,

00:25:40.340 the gain of function is justified

00:25:42.960 by the argument that if you create a virus,

00:25:47.360 then you can create the vaccine

00:25:48.820 that will address it if it ever,

00:25:52.160 whatever reason becomes.

00:25:54.080 But you are willing the virus into existence

00:25:56.340 that might never have appeared in doing that.

00:25:58.480 Yeah.

00:25:59.120 What's, you know,

00:25:59.740 the point is here we are dealing with a virus

00:26:02.440 that never would have existed

00:26:03.660 unless these scientists had put it together

00:26:05.780 in the first place.

00:26:06.620 So, hey,

00:26:07.780 reading the second paper,

00:26:10.580 the diffuse paper,

00:26:11.600 I refer to two papers,

00:26:12.600 the second paper that came out

00:26:13.900 and actually new information

00:26:15.180 has just come out

00:26:16.020 since it was,

00:26:16.980 since I wrote the article.

00:26:19.660 And again,

00:26:21.020 what they were apparently trying,

00:26:23.080 what they argued

00:26:23.780 that they were trying to do

00:26:24.880 was they were trying to put together

00:26:26.440 a virus that would reinfect bats

00:26:30.080 and make them in turn immune

00:26:35.280 and unable to then pass on the virus.

00:26:39.120 Okay.

00:26:39.440 There was some sort of immunological thing

00:26:41.460 that they were trying to,

00:26:42.920 hoping to achieve

00:26:43.860 where bat populations were concerned

00:26:46.000 because bats are the largest,

00:26:49.360 largest population of mammals

00:26:52.500 that harbour this coronavirus.

00:26:55.880 And I mean,

00:26:56.360 and there are all kinds of coronaviruses

00:26:58.200 that have been recognised,

00:27:00.580 but I mean,

00:27:01.220 apparently there are estimates

00:27:02.240 there in the thousands

00:27:03.100 of kinds of coronaviruses

00:27:04.480 that are out there

00:27:05.280 and some with varying degrees

00:27:07.600 of lethality.

00:27:08.840 So that was one argument

00:27:12.040 about why it was necessary

00:27:13.480 to do this.

00:27:15.420 The second argument

00:27:16.700 and the more common one

00:27:18.060 is that it's there to create,

00:27:22.480 you know,

00:27:22.760 you create something

00:27:23.920 so that you can create a vaccine

00:27:25.140 to deal with it.

00:27:26.360 And now you can see

00:27:27.580 how this would make sense

00:27:28.700 in a military sense,

00:27:30.240 in a military context.

00:27:31.900 I mean,

00:27:32.260 if you've got people out there,

00:27:35.060 enemies,

00:27:35.540 enemies who are developing

00:27:40.120 their own biological warfare,

00:27:43.240 you know,

00:27:43.600 biological weapons,

00:27:44.640 and you've got to try

00:27:45.840 to anticipate

00:27:46.380 what the heck

00:27:46.900 they are trying to, 0.95

00:27:48.620 going to hit you with

00:27:50.240 and so you want to come up

00:27:51.620 with a vaccine

00:27:52.200 that's actually going

00:27:52.980 to deal with it all.

00:27:56.340 That makes some sense.

00:27:59.580 The,

00:28:00.200 but there was a point,

00:28:01.400 but the bigger risk is,

00:28:03.380 in all of that,

00:28:04.320 is,

00:28:05.320 you know,

00:28:06.340 in the course of doing this,

00:28:08.220 you end up with what

00:28:09.140 we ended up with with COVID.

00:28:11.560 Well,

00:28:12.020 and also just to jump in there,

00:28:14.080 Margaret,

00:28:14.440 if I may,

00:28:15.200 I mean,

00:28:15.740 the idea of developing that

00:28:17.860 to protect against

00:28:18.660 what your enemies may do

00:28:19.860 with China,

00:28:21.140 who maybe we don't call an enemy,

00:28:23.040 but is certainly not a friend,

00:28:24.940 does not strike me

00:28:26.120 as the wisest course of that.

00:28:27.480 And I mean,

00:28:27.720 in Canada,

00:28:28.160 we've certainly seen front and center

00:28:29.720 about what happens

00:28:30.560 when you let people affiliated

00:28:32.260 with the Chinese regime

00:28:33.780 into our top security labs.

00:28:36.560 Absolutely.

00:28:37.340 Absolutely.

00:28:38.020 So,

00:28:38.700 no,

00:28:39.140 none of this makes

00:28:40.500 any sense whatsoever.

00:28:42.100 I mean,

00:28:42.320 and there are various theories

00:28:43.380 about why

00:28:44.000 and how this might have taken place,

00:28:45.700 that it was a CIA

00:28:46.780 covert operation

00:28:47.980 of some kind.

00:28:48.620 We were trying to figure out

00:28:49.480 what was going on

00:28:50.080 in their labs

00:28:50.720 and they compiled.

00:28:52.520 The drugs on us.

00:28:53.500 They ended up,

00:28:54.520 as usual,

00:28:55.660 with our technology,

00:28:57.380 right?

00:28:57.580 Yeah.

00:28:58.140 So now they have all this

00:28:59.260 gain-of-function technology

00:29:00.880 with which,

00:29:01.500 and I'm sure they're underway,

00:29:03.040 you know,

00:29:03.380 the gain-of-function technology.

00:29:05.720 Xi Zhengli

00:29:06.340 knows everything

00:29:07.940 that Ralph Barrett knows.

00:29:10.120 And,

00:29:10.240 hey,

00:29:11.500 and she's the, 0.94

00:29:12.600 she's the coronavirus authority.

00:29:14.540 She can actually go out.

00:29:16.220 I mean,

00:29:16.740 she's got immediate access

00:29:18.400 to all kinds of bats.

00:29:20.400 There are a prodigious number

00:29:21.660 of bat caves in China.

00:29:24.280 So the,

00:29:26.040 so,

00:29:26.380 you know,

00:29:26.620 none of it really makes

00:29:28.200 a lot of sense

00:29:28.820 and,

00:29:29.260 and,

00:29:29.960 and,

00:29:30.300 which is all the more worrying.

00:29:33.480 Yeah.

00:29:33.940 Because if you could ascribe

00:29:35.900 some clear motive

00:29:37.600 to what was going on,

00:29:39.020 it might be easier

00:29:39.780 to deal with.

00:29:40.580 The one thing

00:29:41.460 that is clear out of it,

00:29:42.700 this is what do we do

00:29:43.780 about these gain-of-function labs,

00:29:46.620 because this is going on everywhere.

00:29:48.180 It's not just in China.

00:29:50.360 As Redfield pointed out,

00:29:52.300 universities everywhere

00:29:53.240 are playing around,

00:29:54.600 tinkering around

00:29:55.260 with these viruses

00:29:56.240 and these,

00:29:57.200 these kinds of technologies.

00:29:59.640 And yes,

00:30:00.340 there are,

00:30:02.280 leaks are routine.

00:30:04.840 These are not,

00:30:05.480 I didn't mention that

00:30:06.280 in the article,

00:30:06.680 but I mean,

00:30:07.120 I think there was something

00:30:07.760 like 200 lab leaks

00:30:08.860 every,

00:30:09.960 you know,

00:30:10.380 every few years.

00:30:11.820 And okay,

00:30:12.900 they don't count anything,

00:30:14.720 but one might.

00:30:17.280 And all that takes

00:30:18.400 is one,

00:30:18.960 right?

00:30:19.700 That's right.

00:30:20.600 That's right.

00:30:21.160 Absolutely.

00:30:22.000 So,

00:30:22.780 so yes.

00:30:25.100 Now,

00:30:26.140 I mean,

00:30:26.680 the other side

00:30:27.340 of the whole,

00:30:27.980 whole equation

00:30:28.880 is not just

00:30:29.900 that this virus

00:30:30.760 was created

00:30:31.740 and somehow

00:30:32.560 rather got out

00:30:33.720 into the,

00:30:34.240 into the world.

00:30:35.280 You know,

00:30:35.860 the other side

00:30:36.800 of the equation

00:30:37.280 is how the world

00:30:38.160 reacted then.

00:30:40.060 And that's equally disturbing.

00:30:41.640 I found that very disturbing

00:30:42.760 as well.

00:30:43.740 Well,

00:30:44.040 yes.

00:30:44.540 And,

00:30:44.700 and that,

00:30:45.200 I mean,

00:30:45.380 has been covered

00:30:46.280 exhaustively on this show,

00:30:47.840 not nearly enough by,

00:30:49.280 I would say,

00:30:49.620 legacy media sources

00:30:50.680 and C2C Journal

00:30:51.780 and yourself

00:30:52.300 have been very strong

00:30:53.900 on that.

00:30:54.380 And it's easy

00:30:55.280 to point the finger

00:30:56.100 at,

00:30:56.700 you know,

00:30:56.980 the American government

00:30:58.000 and,

00:30:58.560 you know,

00:30:58.680 the Fauci regime

00:30:59.600 and all of that.

00:31:00.200 And certainly easy

00:31:00.740 to point the finger

00:31:01.320 at the Chinese.

00:31:02.420 Canada has never

00:31:03.360 been immune from this,

00:31:04.880 no pun intended.

00:31:05.740 I mean,

00:31:06.060 I mentioned

00:31:06.540 the case

00:31:07.280 of Canada

00:31:08.040 and China

00:31:09.280 cooperating

00:31:09.980 at that biolab

00:31:11.120 in Winnipeg,

00:31:12.100 but Canada

00:31:12.680 has been a part

00:31:13.400 of a lot

00:31:13.760 of these,

00:31:14.360 you know,

00:31:14.740 cross-cultural exchanges

00:31:16.020 of research

00:31:16.980 as well,

00:31:17.460 has it not?

00:31:17.840 Yes,

00:31:18.240 absolutely.

00:31:19.120 And,

00:31:19.460 I mean,

00:31:20.380 and it looks

00:31:21.340 like we're going

00:31:21.860 to get even more

00:31:22.720 if the,

00:31:23.300 if the WHO

00:31:24.700 pandemic treaty

00:31:25.940 goes through,

00:31:26.740 because they'll

00:31:27.400 be calling

00:31:27.880 on everybody,

00:31:29.140 all the global

00:31:30.380 partners,

00:31:31.100 to go get out

00:31:32.380 there and gather

00:31:33.620 up their viruses

00:31:34.580 and send

00:31:36.040 them into their

00:31:36.580 labs.

00:31:36.940 And by the way,

00:31:37.620 send them also

00:31:38.220 to the WHO

00:31:39.240 where the,

00:31:41.180 where the major

00:31:42.060 pharmaceutical companies

00:31:43.340 will,

00:31:44.240 of course,

00:31:44.480 have a lot of fun

00:31:45.740 with them as well.

00:31:47.360 We'll see it all

00:31:48.020 over again.

00:31:48.780 So this is very

00:31:49.860 disturbing.

00:31:50.600 And I,

00:31:50.980 you know,

00:31:51.840 if,

00:31:52.400 if at one level,

00:31:54.640 certainly the big

00:31:56.180 issue that needs

00:31:57.100 to be discussed here

00:31:58.200 is whether or not

00:31:58.880 we should be doing

00:31:59.520 this stuff at all.

00:32:02.720 President Obama

00:32:03.920 called a moratorium

00:32:05.900 on gain-of-function

00:32:07.460 research.

00:32:08.080 Well,

00:32:08.220 it was at that

00:32:08.780 point then that

00:32:09.420 they figured out

00:32:09.980 how to use an NGO

00:32:11.240 to get the funding

00:32:12.580 to another part

00:32:14.360 of the world

00:32:15.100 to keep doing it.

00:32:16.960 Yeah,

00:32:17.200 they just start

00:32:17.640 outsourcing it

00:32:18.420 at that point

00:32:18.960 and it makes it

00:32:19.540 worse because you

00:32:20.160 lose that oversight

00:32:21.020 and transparency

00:32:22.100 that normally existed.

00:32:23.460 Exactly.

00:32:24.380 So,

00:32:24.840 you know,

00:32:25.260 that,

00:32:25.640 so there was

00:32:27.240 that certain

00:32:28.300 big,

00:32:28.820 big downside

00:32:29.480 from that.

00:32:31.160 But,

00:32:31.200 but the question

00:32:32.360 then becomes,

00:32:33.180 well,

00:32:33.260 how do you monitor

00:32:34.160 this?

00:32:34.560 How do you

00:32:35.180 guarantee,

00:32:35.700 you know,

00:32:37.440 check for safety

00:32:39.060 and what have you?

00:32:40.440 Incidentally,

00:32:41.260 we had in,

00:32:41.800 what we do know

00:32:42.460 about Wuhan

00:32:43.040 is that

00:32:43.760 most of the work

00:32:44.960 was done

00:32:45.520 in substandard

00:32:46.580 biosafety securities

00:32:47.940 at labs.

00:32:49.000 They had a fabulous

00:32:50.080 new lab,

00:32:51.320 a BSL,

00:32:52.500 highest level safety,

00:32:54.040 a new lab

00:32:54.940 had been built

00:32:56.040 very recently,

00:32:57.700 but it turns out

00:32:59.060 most of the work

00:32:59.700 on the SARS

00:33:01.500 viruses were

00:33:02.860 being done

00:33:03.580 in biosafety lab

00:33:05.200 two and three.

00:33:06.700 So,

00:33:07.420 again,

00:33:08.040 you know,

00:33:08.420 how do you monitor?

00:33:09.460 How do you,

00:33:10.000 how do you keep

00:33:10.880 track of all of this?

00:33:12.000 And how do you,

00:33:12.840 why are we allowing this?

00:33:14.460 So,

00:33:15.400 there,

00:33:15.840 there are,

00:33:16.480 I mean,

00:33:16.700 reading and reviewing

00:33:18.080 the voluminous evidence

00:33:20.020 to date,

00:33:20.620 there are really two paths

00:33:21.940 that are facing

00:33:22.940 governments.

00:33:23.500 I mean,

00:33:23.620 you could look at this

00:33:24.260 and say what you're saying,

00:33:25.440 which is,

00:33:26.080 this is a cautionary tale.

00:33:27.740 We should not do

00:33:28.540 this type of research,

00:33:29.600 not put ourself

00:33:30.400 in this position again.

00:33:32.740 But I fear that

00:33:33.700 too many lawmakers

00:33:34.620 and so-called experts

00:33:35.880 are doing the opposites

00:33:36.940 and saying,

00:33:37.800 ah,

00:33:38.040 see,

00:33:38.240 this is why we need

00:33:39.340 to do the research.

00:33:40.280 This is why we need

00:33:41.180 to do it.

00:33:41.600 And they're looking

00:33:42.560 at the same premise

00:33:43.520 and correct me

00:33:44.420 if I'm wrong,

00:33:44.980 Margaret,

00:33:45.180 but they're drawing

00:33:45.820 the opposite conclusion.

00:33:48.280 Exactly.

00:33:49.260 And as Redfield says,

00:33:50.820 you know,

00:33:50.980 the next pandemic

00:33:51.780 will come from a lab

00:33:53.160 somewhere

00:33:53.700 and it'll be worse.

00:33:55.080 And who knows

00:33:56.320 whether or not

00:33:56.880 we can

00:33:57.520 or will be ready for it.

00:33:59.380 Let's hope we are.

00:34:00.800 And heaven knows,

00:34:02.300 we have a lot

00:34:03.660 of salutary lessons

00:34:05.320 to be obtained

00:34:06.080 from our past experience here.

00:34:08.840 Not least

00:34:09.660 that individual

00:34:11.020 health authorities

00:34:11.920 really,

00:34:12.620 really need

00:34:13.220 to drill down

00:34:14.100 and decide

00:34:14.900 and,

00:34:15.240 you know,

00:34:15.760 take all this information in

00:34:17.540 and decide really

00:34:18.480 where they stand on it.

00:34:19.860 Because what ended up

00:34:21.140 happening last time

00:34:22.260 was the Americans

00:34:22.920 and the pharmaceutical

00:34:24.220 companies ran

00:34:25.880 slipshod over everybody

00:34:27.480 and without offering

00:34:32.360 fully tested vaccines.

00:34:34.880 And of course,

00:34:35.280 we're still paying for that

00:34:36.360 and we're likely

00:34:36.840 to pay for that

00:34:37.560 for a long time

00:34:38.220 with our health conditions.

00:34:41.220 So there is a lot

00:34:42.880 to think about here

00:34:43.900 and I'm hoping

00:34:45.280 that our health authorities

00:34:47.520 are having this discussion

00:34:48.820 and our governments

00:34:49.980 are having these discussions.

00:34:51.460 And at the most local level,

00:34:55.340 which is where

00:34:55.720 these discussions

00:34:56.440 have to take place

00:34:57.440 and where decisions

00:34:58.220 need to take place.

00:34:59.320 I'm a great believer

00:34:59.840 in subsidiarity.

00:35:01.660 You know,

00:35:01.900 decisions at the local level,

00:35:03.360 not at the global level

00:35:04.900 for sure.

00:35:06.300 Yeah,

00:35:06.780 we can all agree on that,

00:35:08.080 I would hope.

00:35:09.160 A pandemic caused by science

00:35:11.120 is an essay

00:35:11.680 in C2C Journal

00:35:12.620 you could read

00:35:13.180 written by Margaret Coppola

00:35:15.140 who's with me now.

00:35:16.040 Margaret,

00:35:16.320 thank you so much

00:35:16.940 for your time on this.

00:35:17.680 Really appreciate it.

00:35:18.680 Good to be here.

00:35:19.280 Thanks, Andrew.

00:35:19.800 That was Margaret Coppola.

00:35:22.500 You can read her work

00:35:23.420 in C2C Journal

00:35:24.660 and I would encourage you

00:35:25.440 to do it.

00:35:25.840 She's quite a lovely writer.

00:35:27.460 Had not seen much of hers before,

00:35:29.800 but I believe she's written books

00:35:31.180 on similar subjects as well.

00:35:33.440 So it was good to have her

00:35:34.340 talking about that.

00:35:35.220 Yeah,

00:35:35.400 how follow the science

00:35:36.300 has just become this refrain

00:35:37.480 when science itself

00:35:39.460 may well have been the problem

00:35:41.740 or at least a large part of it here.

00:35:44.380 But again,

00:35:44.920 we are not anti-science.

00:35:46.100 We are not knuckle-dragging

00:35:47.280 science-denying yokels

00:35:48.780 or at least we try not to be.

00:35:50.980 Oftentimes,

00:35:51.720 science is what the people

00:35:53.380 who claim they're following

00:35:54.740 the science

00:35:55.340 are wanting nothing to do with.

00:35:57.580 And I think this is true

00:35:58.520 among a lot of the

00:35:59.680 climate change folks.

00:36:01.060 We hear from the federal government

00:36:02.760 right now,

00:36:03.300 as we talked about yesterday,

00:36:04.420 this call for a so-called

00:36:05.780 just transition.

00:36:07.620 Now,

00:36:07.960 this is,

00:36:08.580 there's nothing just about it,

00:36:09.820 which is why we've called

00:36:10.600 this interview series.

00:36:11.860 I'm about to introduce

00:36:12.580 today's installment

00:36:13.600 of the unjust transition

00:36:15.500 because it is a transition

00:36:17.400 predicated on politics

00:36:18.620 and not science.

00:36:19.740 It's a transition

00:36:20.380 that presupposes

00:36:22.120 oil and gas

00:36:22.960 are the problems

00:36:23.620 in society

00:36:24.340 and that we can just

00:36:25.880 solve all these things

00:36:26.760 by getting them

00:36:27.400 out of the picture.

00:36:28.440 So,

00:36:28.980 we set out at True North

00:36:30.240 to tell the story

00:36:31.200 of Canada's energy sector

00:36:32.960 and we're doing this

00:36:33.640 through interviews

00:36:34.280 with leaders

00:36:35.580 and CEOs

00:36:36.620 in this very sector.

00:36:38.640 And I often use

00:36:39.660 oil and gas

00:36:40.520 as a stand-in

00:36:41.800 for energy

00:36:42.440 and vice versa.

00:36:43.460 And I realize

00:36:44.440 that I'm cutting out

00:36:45.320 a key part

00:36:46.280 of this discussion

00:36:47.000 which is mining.

00:36:48.520 So,

00:36:48.940 I decided we would,

00:36:50.480 well,

00:36:50.780 we started the series

00:36:51.440 yesterday with Michael Binion

00:36:52.560 but I decided today

00:36:53.620 we would air the interview

00:36:56.060 of Mike Young

00:36:57.780 of Northback

00:36:58.920 which is a mining company

00:37:00.200 with roots

00:37:00.700 in Canada

00:37:01.840 and Australia

00:37:02.740 as you'll hear

00:37:03.320 in a moment.

00:37:04.320 And to learn a little bit,

00:37:05.400 I actually learned

00:37:05.960 quite a bit

00:37:06.400 from this interview

00:37:07.140 about mining

00:37:07.660 that I didn't know

00:37:08.300 so hopefully you will

00:37:09.220 as well.

00:37:13.460 sitting down

00:37:21.000 with Mike Young

00:37:22.540 here.

00:37:23.020 Now,

00:37:23.420 before we get going

00:37:24.400 I want to talk

00:37:24.880 about the name

00:37:25.420 of your company

00:37:26.020 because you shared

00:37:26.640 something rather amusing

00:37:28.140 that ties into

00:37:29.000 our audience

00:37:29.600 here at True North

00:37:30.600 I think.

00:37:31.500 Sure,

00:37:31.780 so we are

00:37:32.860 a Canadian company

00:37:33.880 that is Australian-owned

00:37:34.960 and we were looking

00:37:35.960 for a new name

00:37:36.820 for the company

00:37:37.340 that reflected both

00:37:38.440 and so we came up

00:37:39.900 with Northback

00:37:40.620 and so that's

00:37:41.360 a combination

00:37:41.940 of the True North

00:37:43.020 strong and free

00:37:43.880 and the Australian Outback

00:37:45.100 and that is literally

00:37:45.900 where the name comes from

00:37:46.920 and our logo

00:37:48.100 is the Maple Leaf

00:37:49.540 and it sits above

00:37:51.060 the Commonwealth Star

00:37:52.060 of Australia.

00:37:52.780 Okay,

00:37:53.160 and that's what you have

00:37:54.020 on your lapel there.

00:37:54.460 On my lapel.

00:37:55.620 Okay.

00:37:56.120 The coal pin,

00:37:56.780 yes,

00:37:57.040 that's right.

00:37:57.580 Well,

00:37:57.900 you brought up

00:37:58.580 the coal pin.

00:37:59.200 Let's talk about that

00:38:00.160 because that's

00:38:00.820 so often treated

00:38:01.860 as I think

00:38:02.480 a dirty word

00:38:03.280 by a lot of people

00:38:04.840 that are in this space

00:38:05.920 on the political side

00:38:06.840 of things

00:38:07.260 but where is your

00:38:08.820 perspective on the industry?

00:38:10.620 It's a great question.

00:38:11.780 So,

00:38:12.620 I want to change

00:38:14.140 the name of

00:38:14.680 metallurgical coal

00:38:15.540 to steel carbon

00:38:16.640 because 75%

00:38:19.480 of the world's steel

00:38:20.120 is made using

00:38:20.920 metallurgical coal

00:38:21.720 or steel carbon

00:38:22.580 and a lot of people

00:38:23.640 don't know that

00:38:24.160 and they don't understand

00:38:25.520 that there's quite a difference

00:38:26.600 in terms of

00:38:27.540 use,

00:38:28.740 value and use

00:38:29.360 and emissions

00:38:29.880 between thermal coal

00:38:31.040 and metallurgical coal.

00:38:32.180 So,

00:38:32.400 our company

00:38:32.740 is a metallurgical coal project.

00:38:34.220 We have a project

00:38:34.820 in Crowsnest Pass

00:38:36.360 of southern Alberta

00:38:37.300 and we're looking

00:38:38.580 to develop that project

00:38:39.760 to really feel

00:38:40.960 the need

00:38:41.360 coming up.

00:38:43.000 So,

00:38:43.680 steel production

00:38:44.400 is going up

00:38:45.080 and it's going

00:38:45.460 to continue to go up.

00:38:46.380 It's one of the four pillars

00:38:47.400 of modern civilization,

00:38:49.400 western civilization,

00:38:50.820 eastern civilization.

00:38:52.040 If you build something

00:38:52.920 with concrete,

00:38:53.740 you're building with steel.

00:38:55.100 Steel is fundamental

00:38:56.300 to our lifestyle.

00:38:58.500 Oftentimes,

00:38:59.460 I mean,

00:38:59.680 we've heard in Canada

00:39:00.960 for the last few months

00:39:02.620 very aggressively

00:39:03.340 the need to build housing.

00:39:04.700 We have

00:39:05.120 high density housing,

00:39:06.600 all of these

00:39:07.280 construction projects

00:39:08.460 that governments

00:39:09.040 and, you know,

00:39:09.660 all political parties

00:39:10.420 are promising

00:39:10.940 that are all

00:39:11.800 requiring steel.

00:39:12.980 So,

00:39:13.280 that doesn't happen

00:39:14.160 without coal,

00:39:14.820 you're saying?

00:39:15.600 That's correct.

00:39:16.260 So,

00:39:16.760 as I say,

00:39:17.380 most of the world's steel

00:39:18.240 is made using coal.

00:39:20.080 People talk about green steel.

00:39:21.960 It will certainly happen,

00:39:23.560 but it will not be

00:39:24.560 a fundamental shift

00:39:25.500 in the way steel is made.

00:39:27.340 The companies,

00:39:28.360 the countries

00:39:28.860 that make the steel

00:39:30.000 worldwide

00:39:30.560 are dominated by Asia 0.97

00:39:32.240 and they have blast furnaces.

00:39:34.080 Look,

00:39:34.360 those countries

00:39:35.640 are definitely

00:39:36.420 looking to reduce emissions

00:39:37.680 and that would be

00:39:38.980 through carbon capture

00:39:39.840 and other uses

00:39:40.440 of the CO2

00:39:41.180 that's released

00:39:41.720 when you make steel

00:39:42.720 with coal.

00:39:44.720 But,

00:39:45.320 that's not going

00:39:46.120 to slow down

00:39:46.640 and as you say,

00:39:48.180 we're continuing

00:39:48.860 to build houses.

00:39:50.460 They have basements.

00:39:51.620 The basements

00:39:52.020 are made out of concrete

00:39:52.880 and concrete

00:39:53.600 is always reinforced

00:39:54.820 with steel.

00:39:56.320 So,

00:39:56.960 why is that part

00:39:58.380 of the story

00:39:58.980 never told?

00:39:59.880 Because,

00:40:00.160 I mean,

00:40:00.480 similarly,

00:40:00.840 when we're talking

00:40:01.460 about energy sources,

00:40:02.900 oftentimes,

00:40:03.480 we're being told

00:40:04.620 we need to rely

00:40:05.260 on these mythical

00:40:05.920 alternatives

00:40:06.480 that don't really

00:40:07.060 exist yet.

00:40:07.680 And in this particular

00:40:08.380 case,

00:40:08.720 you're talking

00:40:09.160 about something

00:40:09.660 where there really

00:40:10.580 isn't even a proposed

00:40:11.520 alternative to it.

00:40:13.120 Well,

00:40:13.280 that's correct.

00:40:14.460 Some steel is made

00:40:15.240 using electric arc

00:40:16.160 furnaces

00:40:16.540 and that's about

00:40:17.820 30%.

00:40:18.700 But,

00:40:19.680 the feed for that

00:40:20.920 is scrap steel

00:40:21.540 and recycled steel.

00:40:23.660 I mean,

00:40:23.820 that's one of the good

00:40:24.320 things about steel.

00:40:25.100 It's recyclable.

00:40:26.360 But,

00:40:26.580 that's not sustainable.

00:40:27.540 If you're growing

00:40:27.980 something,

00:40:28.460 recycling can't

00:40:29.480 inherently do it.

00:40:30.420 So,

00:40:30.620 we do need to

00:40:31.340 mine iron ore.

00:40:32.180 We do need to mine

00:40:33.300 metallurgical coal

00:40:34.000 to make the steel

00:40:34.820 going forward.

00:40:36.240 And most people,

00:40:37.560 as with a lot of metals,

00:40:39.400 people really don't know

00:40:40.400 where they come from.

00:40:41.240 And that's,

00:40:41.840 to me,

00:40:42.640 that's a failure

00:40:43.160 of the school system.

00:40:44.280 You know,

00:40:44.440 nobody takes geology.

00:40:45.900 Right?

00:40:46.320 Nobody understands

00:40:47.120 where the metals come from.

00:40:48.040 A lot of people think

00:40:48.760 they come from factories

00:40:50.620 powered by unicorns.

00:40:52.640 I don't know.

00:40:53.840 But,

00:40:53.940 you know,

00:40:54.200 what I do know

00:40:55.360 is they don't know.

00:40:56.380 And part of what I want to do

00:40:57.660 is educate people

00:40:58.440 on how steel is made

00:40:59.840 and the role of steel carbon

00:41:01.560 in that process.

00:41:02.860 And what's the breakdown

00:41:03.680 for Canada

00:41:04.360 of where the metallurgical coal supply

00:41:06.620 that we need

00:41:07.220 is coming from?

00:41:08.540 So,

00:41:08.980 most of the metallurgical coal

00:41:11.040 in Canada

00:41:11.340 comes from the west,

00:41:12.500 predominantly out of

00:41:13.660 the Elk Valley

00:41:14.280 in B.C.

00:41:15.740 The Crowsnest Pass

00:41:16.940 was once

00:41:17.620 a powerhouse

00:41:18.840 of coal mining,

00:41:19.580 both thermal

00:41:20.080 and metallurgical.

00:41:21.500 So,

00:41:21.880 it was discovered

00:41:23.500 when they drove

00:41:24.100 the railway through.

00:41:25.960 So,

00:41:26.120 that allowed,

00:41:27.520 you know,

00:41:27.760 coal played an important role

00:41:29.320 in maintaining

00:41:29.900 Canada's sovereignty

00:41:30.700 because a lot of people

00:41:31.600 don't know

00:41:32.160 that one of the reasons

00:41:33.380 the railway was built

00:41:34.380 was to maintain

00:41:35.180 the sovereignty

00:41:35.720 of the 49th Airline.

00:41:36.940 I mean,

00:41:37.440 coal is,

00:41:38.460 you know,

00:41:38.600 the history of Canada

00:41:39.320 is linked with coal

00:41:41.500 and we have coal mining

00:41:42.900 down east as well

00:41:44.160 in Nova Scotia

00:41:44.840 and that's mainly thermal.

00:41:47.200 But,

00:41:47.640 most of the world's

00:41:49.380 metallurgical coal

00:41:50.760 is from Australia,

00:41:51.900 so they're a big part

00:41:52.780 of the market,

00:41:53.460 but Canada has a lot of it

00:41:55.060 and we have

00:41:55.720 an opportunity

00:41:57.100 and an obligation

00:41:58.000 to make sure

00:41:58.560 that the world

00:41:59.000 is getting

00:41:59.440 metallurgical coal

00:42:01.200 from what is

00:42:01.800 basically the world's

00:42:03.240 best mining jurisdiction.

00:42:04.800 You know,

00:42:04.980 we have the best

00:42:05.580 environmental laws,

00:42:06.500 there's labour laws,

00:42:07.920 so if you're going to get,

00:42:08.860 if you're going to get

00:42:09.580 your coal from somewhere,

00:42:10.620 Canada is the best place.

00:42:12.500 What is the,

00:42:13.440 I mean,

00:42:13.620 what are the barriers

00:42:14.340 you're facing then?

00:42:15.620 Is it on permits

00:42:16.960 for the mining itself?

00:42:18.600 Is it on export?

00:42:19.840 What are the barriers

00:42:20.460 you're seeing in the industry

00:42:21.480 or just in your company?

00:42:23.120 Well,

00:42:23.520 in the industry,

00:42:24.500 as you say,

00:42:25.240 coal has a bad history.

00:42:26.820 A lot of people,

00:42:28.640 you know,

00:42:28.880 you look at Selim

00:42:29.660 and in the Elk Valley,

00:42:30.800 for example,

00:42:31.260 and those are real issues,

00:42:32.840 but those are legacy issues

00:42:33.960 from the way

00:42:34.480 that we used to do things.

00:42:35.560 One of the things

00:42:36.060 that people don't see

00:42:38.480 is just how modern

00:42:39.580 modern day mining is

00:42:40.760 of all metals,

00:42:41.560 not just coal,

00:42:42.400 but copper

00:42:43.060 and all the metals

00:42:43.840 that we call

00:42:44.260 the critical minerals.

00:42:45.960 Modern day mining

00:42:46.720 is nothing

00:42:47.400 like people imagine.

00:42:48.980 You know,

00:42:49.340 it's highly technical.

00:42:51.180 There is a lot of

00:42:52.220 what we call,

00:42:53.020 you know,

00:42:53.300 robotics.

00:42:55.100 And there's a,

00:42:56.360 look,

00:42:56.960 people think

00:42:57.660 we're not environmentalists.

00:42:59.120 One thing about

00:42:59.640 being a geologist

00:43:00.380 is I get to go

00:43:01.460 into the environment

00:43:02.260 and I spend a lot of time

00:43:03.560 in the bush

00:43:04.040 and we care for the environment.

00:43:06.060 We seem not to,

00:43:07.920 people seem not to think that.

00:43:10.300 Well,

00:43:10.380 I think you know

00:43:10.860 a lot more about

00:43:11.580 the environment

00:43:12.100 than so many of the people

00:43:12.960 trying to vilify your industry.

00:43:14.200 Well,

00:43:14.380 that's true,

00:43:14.960 actually.

00:43:15.380 That's a fair point.

00:43:16.860 But we can,

00:43:17.840 we can sustain,

00:43:19.040 we can sustain the mine

00:43:20.300 and protect the environment

00:43:21.720 at the same time.

00:43:22.500 I mean,

00:43:23.540 you know,

00:43:23.860 we make,

00:43:24.260 we make no,

00:43:25.540 make no mistake

00:43:26.600 when you,

00:43:27.200 when you do a mine,

00:43:28.100 you alter the environment.

00:43:29.600 But what you do afterwards,

00:43:31.500 if you do that

00:43:32.480 in consultation

00:43:33.240 with not only

00:43:34.160 the First Nations

00:43:34.940 and the rights holders,

00:43:35.900 but the people

00:43:36.520 of that area,

00:43:37.200 when you,

00:43:38.240 when you go,

00:43:39.060 you walk away

00:43:39.820 from that project,

00:43:40.580 if you work with them

00:43:41.940 to actually close

00:43:44.220 that project

00:43:45.040 in a way

00:43:45.540 that the land

00:43:46.120 is still usable

00:43:46.900 in whatever manner

00:43:48.420 that may be,

00:43:49.820 then that's a win

00:43:50.760 for everybody.

00:43:52.020 So when we talk

00:43:52.960 about the just transition,

00:43:54.200 oftentimes this is viewed

00:43:55.440 in the context

00:43:56.180 of oil and gas,

00:43:57.600 but it does apply

00:43:58.800 to mining as well

00:44:00.220 in a very real way.

00:44:01.580 So what's your concern

00:44:03.560 looking at the messaging

00:44:05.100 you've seen

00:44:05.500 from the government

00:44:06.040 on this federally?

00:44:07.960 So what a lot

00:44:09.060 of people don't realize

00:44:09.780 is that when you move

00:44:10.960 to renewables,

00:44:11.820 renewables inherently,

00:44:13.580 by the laws of physics,

00:44:14.980 have lower energy density.

00:44:16.640 That means that you need

00:44:17.980 more metal

00:44:18.500 to produce the same

00:44:19.820 kilowatt of power

00:44:20.680 as you would with,

00:44:22.220 say, a baseload

00:44:22.980 like coal, gas,

00:44:24.180 hydro, or nuclear.

00:44:26.400 So yes,

00:44:27.560 we move towards

00:44:28.180 cleaner power sources,

00:44:29.600 but there is a cost to that.

00:44:31.180 The cost is you need

00:44:31.920 more metal

00:44:32.320 and you need all the metals.

00:44:34.080 And of course,

00:44:34.600 steel is the foundation.

00:44:35.960 It's the workhorse

00:44:36.940 of the just transition.

00:44:39.760 You're not moving

00:44:40.400 towards new power lines,

00:44:42.040 transmission lines,

00:44:43.660 solar panels,

00:44:44.900 windmills.

00:44:45.440 I mean, a windmill,

00:44:46.260 the foundation of a windmill

00:44:47.400 is just full

00:44:48.480 of reinforced steel.

00:44:50.960 And then we're back

00:44:51.420 to coal.

00:44:52.800 We're back to

00:44:53.380 steel carbon.

00:44:54.840 Yeah, steel carbon.

00:44:55.760 Yes, we'll go for

00:44:56.320 the rebrand here.

00:44:57.280 We are back to that.

00:44:58.400 And so that's the thing

00:44:59.360 is there are,

00:45:00.580 you know,

00:45:01.140 the foundations,

00:45:02.780 both metaphorically

00:45:03.660 and physically,

00:45:04.920 of renewables

00:45:05.780 is steel

00:45:06.320 and concrete,

00:45:07.760 both of which

00:45:08.780 have emissions.

00:45:10.980 So you ask yourself,

00:45:12.560 do you want to stop emissions

00:45:13.380 or do you want to manage emissions?

00:45:15.000 And I think

00:45:15.480 if you're going to have

00:45:16.180 a transition

00:45:16.720 to a cleaner power source,

00:45:18.600 then you're going to have

00:45:19.900 to think about

00:45:20.580 how we mine more metal,

00:45:21.820 but we do it in a way

00:45:22.660 that's sustainable

00:45:23.320 and environmentally,

00:45:25.320 you know,

00:45:25.660 less environmental impact.

00:45:28.240 Well, I mean,

00:45:28.600 some mining companies

00:45:29.380 would stand to benefit

00:45:30.200 a great deal from this.

00:45:31.180 I mean,

00:45:31.320 any company that's in lithium,

00:45:32.740 for example,

00:45:33.160 I mean,

00:45:33.460 the transition of battery.

00:45:34.420 So every now and then

00:45:35.140 you'll see a mining executive

00:45:36.080 that's up there,

00:45:36.820 you know,

00:45:37.060 speaking about,

00:45:37.780 you know,

00:45:38.080 the need to get away

00:45:38.960 from oil and gas.

00:45:39.680 Then you realize

00:45:40.200 it's because they're going

00:45:40.760 to be cashing in hugely on this.

00:45:42.300 But I think you're right

00:45:43.320 when you point out

00:45:43.940 managing versus eliminating

00:45:45.320 because there does seem

00:45:46.720 to be a rather fantastical view

00:45:48.660 by some people

00:45:49.400 that we can just get down

00:45:50.960 to zero

00:45:51.500 without obliterating

00:45:53.100 very large things

00:45:54.440 that we don't have

00:45:55.000 alternatives for.

00:45:56.740 Well, that's right.

00:45:57.300 And, you know,

00:45:58.280 one of the customers

00:45:59.640 that our project will have

00:46:01.580 is Japan and Korea.

00:46:03.340 And, you know,

00:46:03.940 those are modern

00:46:04.860 Western nations.

00:46:06.700 And they're still

00:46:08.040 building blast furnaces

00:46:09.780 and they're still going

00:46:10.560 to be producing CO2.

00:46:11.700 But they're looking

00:46:12.300 at carbon capture

00:46:14.020 and sequestration.

00:46:15.480 They're looking

00:46:16.160 at alternate uses of carbon.

00:46:17.580 I mean,

00:46:17.740 you can change

00:46:19.220 carbon dioxide

00:46:19.820 into graphite.

00:46:21.360 You know,

00:46:21.540 anything can be engineered out.

00:46:23.440 There's a cost to it, right?

00:46:24.860 And so this is the thing

00:46:26.220 people, I think,

00:46:27.360 are failing to realize

00:46:28.280 that, yes,

00:46:28.860 we can have clean energy,

00:46:29.920 but there's a cost to it.

00:46:30.800 Things will cost more.

00:46:33.700 And so, you know,

00:46:34.600 for us

00:46:35.140 and for all miners,

00:46:36.460 the lithium miners included.

00:46:37.720 Now, don't forget,

00:46:38.740 the lithium guys

00:46:39.380 only make batteries.

00:46:40.260 They don't produce electricity.

00:46:41.940 They only store it.

00:46:43.200 Yes.

00:46:43.420 But, you know,

00:46:44.280 the thing is,

00:46:44.800 is if we're going to go

00:46:45.820 to cleaner types of energy

00:46:47.900 of all sorts,

00:46:49.260 then it's going to require

00:46:49.980 more metal.

00:46:51.740 So to talk about steel carbon,

00:46:53.800 I'll try to see

00:46:54.660 if we can get some momentum

00:46:55.400 behind that for a moment.

00:46:56.800 Is there a market

00:46:57.800 for what Canada is mining?

00:47:00.300 I mean,

00:47:00.420 does Canada have enough supply

00:47:01.560 that we're competing globally

00:47:03.060 on this in a large way?

00:47:05.060 Not hugely.

00:47:05.760 I think we're about fifth

00:47:06.680 in the world.

00:47:07.340 We're still an important market.

00:47:08.820 And I think one of the reasons

00:47:09.880 we're an important market

00:47:10.720 is because the alternate markets

00:47:11.980 are places like Australia,

00:47:13.780 Mongolia,

00:47:15.100 Russia,

00:47:15.700 predominantly.

00:47:16.680 So, you know,

00:47:17.280 you can start to hear

00:47:18.180 the political aspects

00:47:21.020 of supply come in.

00:47:22.820 So with the rise of ESG

00:47:25.460 globally,

00:47:27.940 Canada becomes a good place

00:47:30.000 to be buying your metal

00:47:30.840 because, as I said,

00:47:32.020 it's one of the best,

00:47:32.940 you know,

00:47:33.100 Australia and Canada

00:47:33.780 are the two best

00:47:34.240 mining jurisdictions on earth

00:47:35.460 in terms of stewardship

00:47:38.440 of the land,

00:47:39.300 of your employees.

00:47:41.100 And so people are going

00:47:41.840 to look to these two countries

00:47:42.960 to be getting metal

00:47:45.080 that's sustained,

00:47:45.960 well,

00:47:46.360 not sustainably,

00:47:47.560 but responsibly mine.

00:47:49.980 Yeah,

00:47:50.140 because the demand

00:47:50.840 exists regardless.

00:47:51.900 So it's just about

00:47:52.580 where the optimal way

00:47:53.700 to get the supply is.

00:47:54.920 That's right.

00:47:55.560 And, you know,

00:47:56.480 ironically,

00:47:57.060 one of the things

00:47:57.700 that we saw in Australia

00:47:58.820 when I was living in Australia

00:47:59.860 where I spent 35 years

00:48:01.160 is that people

00:48:02.540 honestly believe

00:48:03.840 that if they stopped

00:48:04.720 a coal mine in Australia

00:48:05.820 that that coal somehow

00:48:06.800 would never get burned.

00:48:07.780 But it would.

00:48:08.180 It would come from

00:48:08.860 a place

00:48:09.680 where the coal

00:48:10.180 is less high quality

00:48:11.900 and would actually

00:48:12.500 be worse off

00:48:13.340 for the planet.

00:48:14.100 So when you start

00:48:14.760 looking at mining

00:48:16.600 and the requirement

00:48:17.360 for steel carbon

00:48:18.900 around the world,

00:48:21.200 steel carbon

00:48:21.960 coming out of places

00:48:23.080 like Australia

00:48:23.740 and Canada

00:48:24.220 are better for the planet

00:48:25.360 than coming

00:48:25.940 from ultimate sources.

00:48:27.580 Steel carbon,

00:48:28.520 we'll get it trending there.

00:48:30.080 Mike,

00:48:30.320 thank you very much

00:48:31.260 and best of luck

00:48:31.760 with all this.

00:48:32.420 Thank you very much.

00:48:33.680 That was Mike Young

00:48:35.040 of North,

00:48:35.660 back part of the

00:48:36.580 Unjust Transition series

00:48:37.840 here on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:48:39.380 We'll have more

00:48:39.860 of that series for you

00:48:41.340 in the days to come

00:48:43.040 on this program.

00:48:43.780 But in the meantime,

00:48:44.520 I've got to get back

00:48:45.540 to court.

00:48:46.280 We will see you all later.

00:48:47.260 Thank you.

00:48:47.640 God bless.

00:48:48.460 And good day to you all.

00:48:50.100 Thanks for listening

00:48:50.700 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:48:52.380 Support the program

00:48:53.200 by donating to True North

00:48:54.440 at www.tnc.news.

00:48:57.880 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - January 31, 2024

Trudeau's national security adviser claims Convoy was rife with ＂violence＂ and ＂weapons＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript