Juno News - True North's Andrew Lawton with Dr. Debra Soh

00:00:00.000 Joining me is sexual neuroscience researcher Dr. Deborah Soh, also a columnist for The Globe and Mail and Playboy.

00:00:11.000 Dr. Soh, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming.

00:00:13.000 Thanks so much for having me.

00:00:14.000 So you're the one, when people say they read it for the articles, like that's you they're reading, right?

00:00:18.000 Just me, yeah.

00:00:19.000 Okay, perfect. Do you get people that don't want to tell you that they've read your work?

00:00:22.000 Not so much. I find more so people, they read it and they say, oh wow, you know, I didn't know.

00:00:26.000 But Playboy's had a long history of having amazing journalism.

00:00:29.000 You've done a lot of tremendous work at really shattering this idea that biology is this malleable concept that is so fluid and I'm glad you've done it.

00:00:43.000 And I was actually quite disheartened to hear from you how much resistance even within academia you were finding when you decided to leave the academic space.

00:00:51.000 And I was hoping you could explain a little bit about that and what really got you to depart working within the sciences full time.

00:00:57.000 Yeah, so I finished my PhD last year. I loved being a researcher. I will always love research but I found that the climate has definitely changed to the point now where you really can't pursue any sort of meaningful research.

00:01:07.000 You have to worry more about how the public is going to respond to what you find and so most researchers will stay far, far away from anything that could be potentially construed as controversial.

00:01:17.000 So for myself, my decision to leave academia was very much because at that time no one was talking about this idea that the majority of gender dysphoric children outgrow their feelings of dysphoria.

00:01:27.000 They don't go on to be transgender in adulthood. They're more likely to be gay adults.

00:01:31.000 And this was completely unacceptable. And if you looked at mainstream media at that time, any coverage on this issue was talking about how social transitioning was the best way forward for these kids.

00:01:40.000 And if you didn't support that, that you were a bigoted person.

00:01:43.000 So I decided to write an op-ed called Why Transgender Kids Should Wait to Transition. 0.97

00:01:48.000 And from that point on, I decided there was no turning back.

00:01:51.000 And that piece, and I remember reading it and being very impressed with it, and also that it was fairly well received in mainstream circles, I found as well.

00:01:59.000 I mean, we're told that you're not allowed to address this, but you wrote this, and I saw that there was a lot of backlash, but there was also a lot of support for it, which was encouraging.

00:02:07.000 Were you seeing that as well in the midst of it, or am I getting a little bit more of a glossed-over image as an outsider than you did as the writer of that?

00:02:15.000 It was definitely mixed. I would say there was quite a bit of pushback, but I was prepared because I knew within sexology there's a very long history of trans activists coming after researchers who produce work or who say things that are considered, you know, not in line with the trans narrative.

00:02:29.000 So I knew it was coming, but I felt strongly enough about it that I had to say something.

00:02:34.000 But I think, I mean, looking back, I have no regrets.

00:02:37.000 It does make such a huge difference when people do reach out and say to you, thank you for saying that.

00:02:41.000 People have a sense of relief because they think, you know, I've been thinking these things or I thought that was the case.

00:02:45.000 I mean, something like biological sex and how there are differences between men and women.

00:02:49.000 I can't imagine going through life and being told these things and feeling that there are no differences, but knowing that's not quite right and not having anyone to talk to about that.

00:02:59.000 So, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's one of those issues that I find particularly odd because I don't have the PhD in sexual neuroscience.

00:03:07.000 And I could tell you that there are differences between men and women.

00:03:10.000 And that doesn't, to me, strike me at all as a radical concept.

00:03:13.000 And I think when the James Damore Google controversy happened, there was a lot of discussion around that.

00:03:19.000 And I was, in all honesty, baffled.

00:03:22.000 And I'm a fairly cynical person in some issues, but I was baffled that there was so much resistance to what isn't even a judgment call to say that men and women are different.

00:03:29.000 It's not about saying one's lesser or more.

00:03:31.000 It's just saying that they're different in the same way that a dog is different than a cat.

00:03:34.000 I mean, that isn't to say that one's better than the other.

00:03:37.000 Is that pushback coming from within the science community or is it coming from people looking into the science community?

00:03:43.000 It's from both. I never thought I would see, say, neuroscientific research being published showing that there are no differences in the brain between men and women.

00:03:52.000 I mean, within the field, everybody knows that's not true.

00:03:54.000 But there was one study that came out a couple of years ago showing that that is what I would say that did a lot of damage in terms of people's understanding about sex differences.

00:04:02.000 Because everyone, that study got so much media coverage and everyone that believes there are no differences between men and women or who say that there are no differences or that gender is a social construct,

00:04:11.000 they point to that study and say, well, there's the proof.

00:04:14.000 But my colleagues, a group of them, reanalyzed the exact same brain data from that study and found that you could, in fact, tell the difference between male and female brains.

00:04:22.000 So it's unfortunate because the media didn't cover that second study.

00:04:25.000 And that's looking at the same study.

00:04:26.000 The exact same.

00:04:27.000 Looking at the same data.

00:04:28.000 Exact same.

00:04:29.000 And another group of researchers took another collection of brain data that was actually higher resolution, so it's higher quality.

00:04:35.000 And they found that you could tell, on average, about 90% of the time whether a brain was male or female.

00:04:39.000 So it's not accurate to say there are no differences.

00:04:41.000 But that first study that came out that suggested that these brains exist along a mosaic and there are no differences,

00:04:47.000 because it's politically correct and because it sounds nice, that's why people like to promote it and to talk about it.

00:04:53.000 I know there's always been a lot of concern that, you know, in areas like the arts and humanities and sociology and gender studies are all mired in this political ideology.

00:05:05.000 I think there were a lot of people that really wanted to believe that the stems, that science, technology, engineering, mathematics were that last bastion of black and white.

00:05:14.000 That isn't the case at all you're describing.

00:05:16.000 And is there a point at which things went wrong or has this been a really gradual shift?

00:05:21.000 It's been gradual, but I've definitely been seeing it more in the last five years.

00:05:25.000 I think part of the problem is that academics who know better will keep their head down because they don't want to rock the boat.

00:05:30.000 And understandably so. I mean, it's not fun to be mobbed.

00:05:33.000 And nowadays, even if you do have tenure, you risk losing your job if you say things on social media or if you produce research that the public doesn't like.

00:05:40.000 So I really think the only way that things are going to change is when academics do start speaking out.

00:05:45.000 But I'm not sure at what point that's going to be.

00:05:47.000 I don't want to put you into a hole that you clearly didn't want to go into here.

00:05:51.000 But do you not think someone like you would really be important to keep in academia?

00:05:57.000 I mean, you have to shoulder the burden of this, but but it strikes me as that we need more people like you that aren't turned off by this field.

00:06:08.000 How can we foster a climate where that happens?

00:06:10.000 Yeah, that's a good question, because I think about it all the time.

00:06:13.000 And I think, you know, with every column I put out, I would not be able to say this if I was still in the academy.

00:06:18.000 And it's really unfortunate because the things I'm saying are not even that controversial.

00:06:22.000 They're based in science.

00:06:23.000 I think people in the field, well, the feedback I get, they say, yes, there's a consensus.

00:06:28.000 Thank you for saying that.

00:06:29.000 So in terms of how to change things, I think people who are in the academy have to find that backbone and finally stand up.

00:06:36.000 I don't know what else can be done.

00:06:38.000 And it strikes me as so disheartening.

00:06:40.000 You described a couple of moments ago looking at research and finding a different conclusion than the initial researchers did.

00:06:46.000 And that, to me, is the scientific process at work.

00:06:49.000 I mean, you redo studies over time.

00:06:51.000 We've seen a lot of studies where you look at them years later, you can't replicate them or you can't reproduce them with the same results.

00:06:58.000 And that's part of the process.

00:07:00.000 And you only get those new conclusions by having the freedom to pursue it.

00:07:04.000 And when you look at the resistance in the academy to have a lot of these discussions,

00:07:09.000 is it actually coming from the universities themselves saying you can't do that or I'm not going to fund your research doing that?

00:07:15.000 Or is it this more self-imposed censorship where people feel like there's a culture that doesn't permit it?

00:07:21.000 I would say both.

00:07:22.000 I think funding agencies, I would like to believe that they're objective.

00:07:25.000 But I think that nowadays it's possible that they prioritize subjects or areas of research that are going to be socially palatable.

00:07:36.000 Because otherwise when the public gets upset and says who funded this, it's going to come back to them.

00:07:41.000 So that's one problem I would say within the academy as well, in particular institutions.

00:07:45.000 I know some institutions, academics aren't allowed to engage with the media without getting permission first.

00:07:50.000 So that's another barrier that you would need to go through.

00:07:53.000 So I think people just eventually say, well, why am I going to put myself in that situation and create all these problems for myself?

00:07:58.000 You asked for permission to sit down with me, right?

00:08:00.000 You don't need to ask anyone for permission now. That's great. It's very liberating.

00:08:04.000 But the one thing, and you touched on this earlier when you used the word sex a couple of times, is this interchangeability between sex and gender.

00:08:13.000 And I hear this a lot from activists where they'll talk about, I want my password to list my gender as whatever.

00:08:19.000 And I actually went and looked at my passport. It doesn't say gender anywhere on it. It says sex.

00:08:24.000 Driver's license says sex. Health card says sex. 0.99

00:08:26.000 And why is it that these two words, which are so mired in politics, we still haven't found a way to really break through that semantics there?

00:08:36.000 I think it's intentional. Yeah. I think part of it is that people find the word sex uncomfortable to say.

00:08:41.000 So that could be part of it. But I think, too, for those who know what they're doing, they intentionally use the word gender in place of sex because sex is based in biology.

00:08:48.000 You can't really deny biological fact. I mean, people try to, but it's a little bit more difficult to argue about biological sex than it is gender, even though gender for 99% of us is identical to biological sex.

00:09:00.000 So I think that's part of it. If you use the word gender, it's somewhat removed.

00:09:05.000 And so then people can argue that this is socially constructed or that you can choose how you feel or who you are.

00:09:12.000 And when you talk about the social constructs, the challenge is that we all know there is a subset of the population where their outward gender does not reflect their biological sex.

00:09:24.000 Is there any scientific truth to this idea that we hear oftentimes in the more sociocultural space of being pan gender, where your gender changes every day or things like that?

00:09:35.000 Or are these are these things that we even have any empirical research on?

00:09:41.000 Not on the idea of gender fluidity or something like pansexuality or being pan gender.

00:09:46.000 Sorry, pansexuality is something different. It means you're attracted to all genders, which is, you know, essentially male and female and transgender people.

00:09:53.000 But in terms of the fluidity aspect, it's not backed by science.

00:09:57.000 But what I think people are referring to is this idea that, yes, we all are a combination of male and female traits.

00:10:02.000 Nobody is 100% masculine or 100% feminine.

00:10:05.000 So I don't think we need to throw out the categories of male and female to account for that.

00:10:09.000 I think that's just a natural part of being human.

00:10:12.000 When we look at the idea of children and when I was younger, you'd have some girls who were tomboys and boys who I don't know if there was a word for it.

00:10:21.000 But Tom girls, I suppose. But you have kids that were a little bit more of the opposite gender in some areas of the way that we conventionally view them.

00:10:30.000 And the one thing I found knowing people in that space is that it was not reflective of anything other than a girl with conventionally masculine interests or a boy with conventionally feminine interests.

00:10:40.000 You know, the girls that like rough and tumble sports, the boys that like dolls.

00:10:44.000 Is there a risk that these things, which used to be just a part of growing up, are now becoming clinicized in a way?

00:10:50.000 Where now parents are, well-meaning parents, thinking, oh my gosh, my girl is liking sports and playing in the dirt.

00:10:56.000 Maybe she's a boy. Is that a risk or is that an overblown concern?

00:10:59.000 Definitely, I think that's a risk. I think the nuance has been lost now.

00:11:03.000 And parents are being told that they need to take their child's, what they say, at face value.

00:11:07.000 So, I mean, children say all kinds of things.

00:11:09.000 And especially young children, they don't have the vocabulary to say, I want to do things that the opposite sex does. 1.00

00:11:14.000 So what they will often say, if you have, say, a little boy who wants to do things that girls do, he'll say, I am a girl.

00:11:20.000 So now parents are being told by medical professionals that if your child says this, you must listen to them, you must affirm them.

00:11:26.000 And as I mentioned, you know, the majority of kids who, I mean, they may not even be gender dysphoric if they're gender atypical.

00:11:32.000 They might just like to do things that the other sex does. 1.00

00:11:34.000 But in the event that, say, they do experience a lot of distress about their sex, they're likely going to outgrow that by puberty anyway.

00:11:40.000 And that's where we get into where you really started off in many respects, of this idea that children will sometimes go through these steps

00:11:49.000 and it's not indicative of anything else that's going to be long-lasting.

00:11:52.000 So is the remedy to that to not do anything in the way of hormones, puberty blockers, any irreversible treatment or invasive treatment

00:12:01.000 until they get to a certain age?

00:12:03.000 Based on the research literature, waiting until puberty would be the best approach

00:12:07.000 because, you know, 60 to 90% across all studies that were done on this topic, the majority outgrow it.

00:12:13.000 So I don't work with children, but my colleagues recommend the same thing. 1.00

00:12:17.000 Nowadays it is so controversial to say anything like this, so clinicians really will just affirm right away.

00:12:22.000 I've heard cases of clinicians, they haven't even met the child yet, and they'll say,

00:12:26.000 we need to get your child on blockers right away, and I don't think that's appropriate.

00:12:30.000 Are these people doing it because they genuinely believe that this is in the best interest of the children, in your view?

00:12:36.000 I think some of them do. I think some of them maybe get caught up in that it is seen as progressive.

00:12:42.000 They probably get a lot of good feedback and are told that they're open-minded,

00:12:45.000 so I could see that being something that would encourage a person to continue on in that way.

00:12:50.000 I think some others, I mean, in terms of the activists that are pushing it,

00:12:53.000 they may or may not be aware that they're intentionally using children as pawns as part of a movement to gain greater political ground.

00:13:02.000 And I do think transgender people deserve equal rights, they deserve dignity and respect.

00:13:06.000 I don't think it's appropriate to use children as a means of obtaining that.

00:13:10.000 No, and that's the problem. I mean, there was that one show out of the US, something about jazz,

00:13:15.000 I Am Jazz or whatever, and it was a younger, I believe, biological boy who identified as a female

00:13:22.000 and then as a teenager was going through things that will stay with you for the rest of your life as far as the treatment is concerned.

00:13:28.000 And if this is, as the medical community seems to realize it, a diagnostic condition,

00:13:35.000 I don't understand the celebration of it and the active encouragement of it.

00:13:39.000 It's definitely being glamorous, and I think that's part of why children also, I mean,

00:13:43.000 it's almost identical, the stories that these kids have when they come out.

00:13:46.000 They spend a lot of time on YouTube or Tumblr, they're in their bedrooms looking at this.

00:13:50.000 And, I mean, adolescence and childhood, it can be difficult,

00:13:53.000 and I think they see these other children who transition, they have glamorous lives,

00:13:57.000 some of them are, you know, getting lots of media attention,

00:13:59.000 and so they think if I did that, maybe my life would be better.

00:14:02.000 When that is the road forward, that the medical community chooses,

00:14:08.000 that the Government of Canada chooses, that individual families and activist groups are choosing,

00:14:12.000 where do you think the obligation is on people like you, people like me,

00:14:19.000 families that have gone through this, and perhaps on the other side,

00:14:22.000 they've seen that it didn't change the problems or it added more problems.

00:14:25.000 I mean, how should people that aren't buying into this whole thing respond in your view?

00:14:30.000 I would say definitely speak out.

00:14:32.000 I think the majority of people are skeptical of this, but they're too afraid,

00:14:35.000 but they're afraid of being called transphobic or bigoted.

00:14:38.000 But, from my experience, I don't consider myself to be those things.

00:14:41.000 I get called that all the time, and it's because people can't actually argue with the facts that I'm laying out.

00:14:47.000 So, I don't think people need to fear those labels.

00:14:50.000 Dr. Deborah Sill, thank you so much for your time.

00:14:52.000 Thanks so much.

00:14:53.000 For the True North Initiative, I'm Andrew Lawton.

Juno News - July 24, 2018

True North's Andrew Lawton with Dr. Debra Soh

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