James Harvey is a British journalist and activist who has been involved in covering many migrant protests across the country, but also here in Norwich. In this episode, James talks about his experiences covering the anti-migrant protests, and how he uses his experience as a journalist and an activist to bring awareness to the issues facing migrants.
00:00:00.000Two years. I am looking at two years in prison for leading chance of deport, stop the boats and send them home.
00:00:08.140The only reason they are doing this right now, the only reason they are attacking political dissidents and journalists is because they want to silence us.
00:00:14.460And they're not going to silence us. We are fighting back for free speech.
00:00:18.220Speech is definitely a theme on my show of late.
00:00:22.100I'm Melanie Bennett for True North. I'm here in Norwich at Riverside.
00:00:26.100I'm about to meet a British patriot who has been involved in the anti-migrant movements, but he's also an independent journalist and he's been involved in covering many of the stories across the country, but also here in NARCH.
00:00:38.400And we've had a few conversations and I really thought it'd be interesting to bring his perspective to you.
00:00:43.360There are so many similarities between Britain and Canada, and I think you're going to find that too.
00:00:56.100I'm here with James Harvey. I've been wanting to talk to you for quite some time.
00:01:05.000So just to start off the conversation, one of the things I find most interesting, you were the first person I actually reached out to when I was coming to NARCH,
00:01:11.960because I've noticed you're an independent journalist for Vox Populi, who go around covering all of these different migrant protests, but also other political issues, right?
00:01:22.960And you guys have been covering and participating in the migrant protests here in NARCH.
00:01:42.280I started when I founded Students Against Tyranny.
00:01:44.620And then from there, I kind of got involved with Unity News Network, Voice of Wales.
00:01:49.340And after moving out of Wales, I then got involved with Vox Populi, Urban Scoop, and those other organizations.
00:01:55.160And I'm kind of an independent activist as well.
00:01:57.800But I think I was talking to you about this.
00:01:59.140I know journalists are meant to be kind of in the middle, neutral and impartial, but from my experience and the kind of work that I do, what I cover, by being a journalist, you're also an activist, right?
00:02:11.980Yeah, you asked me that, and I didn't know how to respond to it.
00:02:16.680But, I mean, if you look at something like Tommy Robinson, right, the kind of journalism he does, where he exposes migrant gangs, but then he also organizes massive marches to showcase his documentaries, I would also consider that activism.
00:02:49.660I mean, you know, if we go back two, three years ago, you know, talking about migrant hotels, we used to expose a lot of the migrant hotels in Wales.
00:02:56.460And the way we do this is actually quite easy.
00:02:59.700And it's literally, you'd go online, you'd find out hotels near you, and you'd find out which one is closed permanently or indefinitely.
00:03:07.500Those are the ones typically that are being used to house illegal immigrants, right?
00:03:10.900So, we'd actually go to these hotels, and the way we'd find out is it's easy.
00:03:16.020You know, you'd see security at the front.
00:03:17.580That's how you'd know it's a migrant hotel.
00:03:19.080And then we'd go and confront them, security.
00:03:20.280We'd go to have a conversation with them.
00:03:21.340And I remember one time I referred to illegal immigrants at one of these hotels as undocumented aliens, which is quite politically correct.
00:03:28.580I'm not sure if it's the same in Canada.
00:03:30.000I know it is in America, but aliens means immigrants.
00:03:32.960I've never heard that people use that in Britain.
00:04:42.780So, you know, we've had this kind of back and forwards with the police for quite a while in the UK in terms of them being very, very, very anti-free speech.
00:04:52.660Policing your thoughts, policing your opinions.
00:04:55.400And, you know, it's kind of accumulated in what happened recently where loads of us in Norwich, in Epping, in Autreconum, etc.
00:05:02.760have been charged, have been arrested and charged for social media posts or for saying words.
00:05:07.980Okay, so let's get on to that, because one of the first conversations I had with you was about how you were arrested on the basis of your speech and now facing charges.
00:05:15.820And I was hoping that you might describe that.
00:05:17.120But I wasn't aware that this was across the other, more well-known protests like Epping.
00:05:23.960I mean, in protests like Epping, right, it's a little bit different.
00:05:28.360What police are doing these days is they've got the Public Order Act.
00:05:31.960And the Public Order Act is one of the main ways they control your free speech and your right to protest, right?
00:05:37.720So in Epping, for example, they've passed something called Section 14.
00:05:41.960And the Section 14 basically says that you've got to protest inside a designated protest area.
00:05:47.140You've got to finish at a certain time.
00:05:49.840And if you don't, you will be arrested.
00:05:51.900So we saw that in Norwich on Sunday where they'd separated the protesters, the protesters and counter-protesters, and they were completely separated, even by a plastic barrier.
00:06:01.140Like there was no contact between them whatsoever.
00:06:03.280They're not allowed to these days, right?
00:06:05.580So like in Epping, there was a woman called Sarah who flew a British flag outside the designated protest area.
00:06:15.100And she's looking at prison time for that, right?
00:06:17.300I went to a protest recently in Colchester and Braintree where, was it, the police, they'd never been, I mean, there has been protests up there before, but there's never been any issues.
00:06:27.860They passed the Section 14, despite there not being grounds to do so, right?
00:06:33.960And we were told if we did not protest inside the designated protest area, if we did not give speeches inside that area, we would be arrested, right?
00:06:40.760So it's kind of a big thing at the moment, and now they're doing it in Norwich, right?
00:06:44.060So they've got a way of controlling the protest, and then they've got a way of controlling your speech.
00:06:47.760The way they control your speech is through Section 4A, right?
00:06:50.920So Section 4A is intent to cause alarm and distress, right?
00:06:54.860So you don't even need to cause alarm and distress, really.
00:06:57.240Intent to cause alarm and distress, okay.
00:07:00.240So they don't need evidence if you're causing alarm and distress.
00:08:50.840I went there in the capacity of an activist that day.
00:08:52.920I wasn't planning on giving any speeches, but I brought down the PA system, and because the guys who were organizing it were kind of newbies, I kind of ended up, you know, hosting the demo on the speaker, right?
00:09:06.920Now, I remember hearing something from the left that white people rape as well.
00:09:14.520You're going to have white people committing rape, and we do have a massive issue in this country with white people committing rape.
00:09:18.580But if that's the case, why do we need to import more of the same?
00:09:21.440Just because white people rape in a white country, why do we need to import more illegal immigrants who continue on with the same exact same behavior?
00:09:30.380So, when I said foreign filth, I was on about those coming over in boats who rape our kids, right?
00:09:35.720If anyone watching this at home considers pedophiles from abroad to be...
00:11:19.040I mean, you have these in the Constitution in America.
00:11:21.780But what a lot of people forget is that not just the Constitution in America, but the New Zealand one as well, they were based off the English Constitution.
00:11:28.440We've got our own Constitution spread among many different...
00:11:31.160Well, it's an unwritten Constitution of the Magna Carta.
00:11:46.060Common law, you know, any of our constitutional rights, we don't have in the UK anymore.
00:11:51.580They've been overwritten with tons of these new laws.
00:11:54.640And the main one these days that they're using to infringe upon our freedoms is stuff like the Public Order Act, is stuff like the Crime and Disorder Act.
00:12:12.440So, racial aggravation is what they used against me.
00:12:14.640They said, because your speech was motivated by race, ethnicity, religion, then it's classed as racial aggravation.
00:12:22.140And because of that, it goes from a six-month prison sentence to a two-year one.
00:12:25.000Yeah, so let's just be clear. We're not just talking about speech crimes.
00:12:27.440We're talking about identity-aggravated speech crimes, which then holds, I imagine, a longer sentence, or a potential longer sentence.
00:12:36.880Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, talking about identity crimes, right, they've got...
00:12:40.860So, you'll be aware, because I know you've been covering a bit of this, there are people going around Norwich at the moment who are putting up flags.
00:12:48.260And that's not just Norwich, that's all over the UK.
00:12:50.180I just want to add context. So, that's the razor flags. This is where English people are putting up England flags, mostly not the Union flag, mostly England, St. George's Cross, or Scottish people putting up the Scottish flag, or Welsh people putting up the Welsh flag to signify that they're protecting their country.
00:13:05.660This is like a reassertion of a national identity.
00:13:09.960We see the Palestine and Ukrainian flag everywhere, even over our council buildings.
00:13:13.240And there's a trans flag just up the road.
00:13:15.900So, you have every flag but the Union flag and the England flag everywhere, right?
00:13:19.320So, people are going around taking our country back and they're putting up all of these England flags, these Union flags, these Welsh flags, these Scottish flags, and they're being vilified for it.
00:13:28.460I know of two people in Norwich who have now been banned from being anywhere near a flag.
00:13:33.740Well, I was told that along the Durham Road, close to the protest, there were all these flags, these St. George's Cross flags, that were put up on the road near the hotel.
00:13:41.940And those were taken down, I believe, three times, it might be two, I think it's three, and every time the Patriot movement decided to put those flags back up even higher, they keep getting taken down.
00:13:50.960So, those flags are not allowed to be flown, but that is the ancient flag of the English people.
00:13:55.620I don't know exactly how old the St. George's Cross is.
00:13:59.380I think it's over a thousand years old at this point.
00:14:02.520It really does designate English identity.
00:14:05.680Now, I'll just add a little bit of context because there has been for some time this association with football hooliganism, and I think that possibly some people are willing to associate the St. George's Cross with racists because of this preconceived notion.
00:14:21.280But that's not what's happening right now.
00:14:22.620What's happening right now is a national renewal of people who are just trying to...
00:15:41.300But that's something we've seen a lot more of.
00:15:43.400You know, so talking about the Section 4A intent to cause alarm and distress, you know it's also illegal to fly a union flag outside a mosque.
00:17:05.320They target one side, now the other side.
00:17:07.500Now they're arguing for anti-free speech laws against the other side, right?
00:17:11.360So, there is a massive, that's what they do and that's the reason they do it, yeah.
00:17:14.860Well, there is a movement in England, not just among activist class or working class, people who feel like they're not being heard, to have more freedom of expression.
00:18:45.960I'm a millennial who went to the UEA, the university here, and I most definitely was educated in a very progressive environmental career path.
00:19:00.660But those are the kinds of people that end up in positions of authority.
00:19:04.140What we see in Canada is the well-heeled university graduates who are among other people who believe the same that they do, and they assume everybody does.
00:19:12.060And we see this with the Labour Party.
00:19:14.460There seems to be the sense that they believe that they are correct, they are righteous, they know the true path, and everybody else is wrong.
00:19:38.540When I talk to them, I tell them I'm a journalist, and all of a sudden they want to tell me about this stuff.
00:19:41.820So when you're saying to me, the people are fed up, I've picked up on that.
00:19:46.580So whilst Norwich is non-confrontational, and they're very polite at first, and they're sussing it out, as soon as they know that you're sympathetic, it all comes out.
00:20:00.060I don't care if you're left-wing, I don't care if you're right-wing, it doesn't matter to me.
00:20:03.300Because we're constantly in this echo chamber, and we're talking to the same people, and they're getting out to the same audiences, right?
00:20:09.200So we've got, in order to win, we have got to be able to have discourse and have a conversation with left-wing groups, organizations, media, etc.
00:20:19.220This is what Charlie Kirk was all about.
00:20:21.860You know, so a lot of people these days are very wary when it comes to talking to what they consider to be left-wing media outlets.
00:20:30.820And while, you know, left-wing media outlets like the BBC do lie, it's important that we get our, we do speak to them, we don't run them away, because that just looks really bad, right?
00:20:43.740I want to talk on this discourse thing, because one of the things that happened at the protest is that I went to the police, I told the police who I was, what I was there for, that I was going to march with the marchers.
00:20:52.600I was a journalist from Canada, and then as soon as I was done, I was going to go speak to the counter-protesters.
00:20:57.220They said, no worries, I repeated the same thing at the beginning of the march with the other police.
00:21:01.540And we did the march, I covered the protesters, I went straight to the counter-protesters, and I was stopped by a police officer who absolutely would not let me speak to the very isolated other group of people on the other side.
00:21:13.620So, he went to talk to them to, I guess, ask their permission if they wanted to speak to me, and I think, okay, that's fine, I'm not here to put cameras in people's faces.
00:21:20.280And I was told point blank that I was identified as being on the right or the right wing or the extreme right, I can't remember exactly what he said, and that they would not allow me to speak to the protesters.
00:21:29.500Now, the local journalist who was there, he spoke to everybody, so I guess he had some kind of acceptability pass, but because some people had made some assumptions about who I was.
00:21:39.140So, you talk about dialogue, and I do see that with, I hate to call it the right and the left, but let's call it the people who are involved in this patriot movement that I've spoken to so far, right?
00:21:51.160I do see them wanting to engage in dialogue more.
00:21:55.140Now, what will happen, and what did happen at the protest, is that they're also willing to speak their mind in an impolite fashion, and quite in a blunt fashion, and tell you they don't like you if they don't like you.
00:22:06.240But that's not just the British, that's a certain kind of British, because then you have on the other side who would just refuse to speak to you at all, because they want to maintain some kind of, just, that's the echo chamber that needs to be maintained.
00:22:18.740Right, so you talk about dialogue, and I hope, I hope for the dialogue, I agree with you that there needs to be more dialogue, but are you confident that that's possible?
00:22:27.580Yes, I am confident, but at the moment there's a massive division, not just in this country, but in every country across the West, right?
00:22:34.580I mean, let's look at the assassination of Charlie Kirk, right?
00:22:38.080So, you've got the assassination of Charlie Kirk, say it was Tyler James Robinson, I believe that was his name, we don't know yet, because he hasn't been convicted of anything.
00:22:47.620Yeah, you've now got people who are saying, oh God, it was someone who was dating the trans, and so we now got, you know, people are calling for civil war against the left.
00:22:58.260It's the state, it's the education system, et cetera.
00:23:01.040And so people quite obviously overlook who is truly responsible for a lot of what we're seeing across Western Europe, right?
00:23:10.100I think dialogue can happen, dialogue is important, without dialogue wars happen, marriages fall apart, et cetera.
00:23:18.260Dialogue is extremely crucial to our democracy, right?
00:23:22.860I mean, behind dialogue, I would say, well, in front of dialogue, I would say that the most important fundamental right that we had was our right to guns.
00:23:30.580Because without that, every other country should-
00:25:02.680But in a functioning society, they're meant to pass a law and you're meant to have a right to petition against it, protest against it, et cetera.
00:25:12.580If they banned protests, the entire democratic protest no longer exists.
00:25:19.000They can just pass laws or willy-nilly, right?
00:25:22.820So, you know, your right to protest is extremely crucial.
00:25:26.720I want to touch on just one last thing before we wrap.
00:25:29.800Well, maybe a couple of things before we wrap up.
00:25:31.960And that is digital ID and online controls.
00:25:34.500Because you're talking about free speech and protest and COVID and the fact that we have the internet, people are able to communicate things.
00:25:40.080So when I arrived in England, the first thing that happened is Twitter, Blue Sky, whatever I tried to access told me that everything was going to be limited because they need to check my age.
00:25:51.160Now, this is new because the last time I came two years ago, that wasn't a problem.
00:25:58.660And so when I want to put things out, it's important that they reach the audience.
00:26:02.500And I have been severely limited since I've been in this country.
00:26:06.640See, the way I avoid that, by the way, and this is quite funny, is I use a VPN that connects me to Canada because Canada doesn't have that.
00:26:12.220So that's how I avoid the online safety bill.
00:26:30.120And it would essentially completely curb or even give the government the ability to take away your ability to access the Internet and also give the Internet provider or stop the Internet provider, even saying that you've been taken off the Internet.
00:27:43.580If you pumped out misinformation regarding the Ukraine-Russia war, then you would not be allowed to access to having ads on your websites using Google.
00:28:07.080So eventually they're just going to start banning websites, which pump out COVID misinformation, Ukraine, Russia, misinformation, climate misinformation, etc.
00:28:17.720It's the information the government doesn't want you to see, essentially.
00:28:26.700And, you know, me and you had a discussion about this earlier, but surely, you know, if people, what is it, there's so much hate they can take.
00:28:34.500But no, the entirety of the UK has been against the online harms bill, against, you know, digital ID, and they've gone and done it anyway.
00:28:41.860To me, that is not, that is not a democracy.
00:28:48.320You know, if you look at Ukraine in 2013, in 2013, the reason that the revolution happened was because you had the government, what was it, originally it was to do with the EU.
00:28:59.760They wanted to go in the EU, they wanted to go back into the EU, they voted for a president who said that you'd do it, and he didn't.
00:29:05.940And then they passed a bunch of laws that stopped you from protesting, stopped you from wearing bike helmets, etc.