Juno News - Uncovering the truth behind the ‘unmarked graves’

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, welcome to the Rupa Subramanya show. I'm Rupa Subramanya. Today we dive into

00:00:21.200 a story that lays bare the shocking truth behind a narrative that has dominated headlines in Canada

00:00:26.700 and abroad for a very long time. Remember in 2021, there were these horrifying allegations that

00:00:33.300 surfaced regarding the discovery of 215 children's graves at the site of a former residential school

00:00:40.420 in Camp Ups, British Columbia. It was an allegation that sent shockwaves through the media landscape

00:00:47.140 portraying Canada as this genocidal nation. Now let's start with the facts. There is no hard

00:00:52.500 evidence to support these allegations that 215 children's graves were found at this site of the

00:00:58.580 former residential school. Now, despite this lack of evidence, media outlets, legacy media outlets,

00:01:05.480 including the New York Times, the newspaper of record, rushed to amplify these claims,

00:01:10.380 fanning the flames of hate and division in Canada. They painted a picture of Canada as this country

00:01:15.420 steeped in guilt and remorse and shame and that it was a genocidal nation. It wasn't until May 2022 0.73

00:01:21.480 that other media outlets began to question this narrative, with the New York Post even going so

00:01:26.780 far as to label it the biggest fake news story in Canada. The skepticism was growing, but the damage

00:01:32.600 had already been done. Fast forward to today and the results of an excavation in Pine Creek, Manitoba,

00:01:38.500 once part of a residential school from 1890 to 1969, have been made public. But what exactly is the truth

00:01:45.620 behind its allegations and what has its impact been on Indigenous communities? To make sense of this,

00:01:51.920 we'll be discussing these findings with an expert on the subject. Karen Restoul is Vice President of

00:01:57.400 Crestview Strategy and is a member of the darkest First Nation and has a unique perspective on the 1.00

00:02:03.620 issues facing Indigenous communities in Canada. Hi, Karen. It's great to have you on my show to talk about a

00:02:09.860 very, very important topic and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Let me first start

00:02:15.860 by asking you, Karen, the allegations of unmarked graves gained widespread attention after the claims

00:02:24.260 in Camp Loops, BC back in 2021. Can you discuss the impact of these allegations I've had on Canada

00:02:33.800 and its First Nations communities? Yeah, that's a big question, Rupa. First of all, thanks for having me

00:02:41.760 to have this conversation with you and your followers and listeners. I think it's a very timely one,

00:02:49.960 seeing as tomorrow we're going into the third National Day for Truth and Reconciliation.

00:02:57.140 The way I view the events that surfaced in 2021, I see that in a few different ways, from a few

00:03:10.280 different lenses. As an Indigenous person, none of this surprised me. Our communities have long

00:03:19.600 talked about or survivors have long talked about, families have long talked about the kids in their

00:03:26.800 communities who were forced to attend residential school and then never made it back home. Those

00:03:32.880 were just stories that existed. On that end, it was something that just reaffirmed what we knew to be

00:03:44.080 true. And in that, I think, was probably, how would I describe it, emotionally overwhelming. Because it was, you know,

00:03:55.760 it kind of was a reminder of that whole experience and that system that came down into our families and

00:04:03.360 communities and disrupted them. So it was quite tumultuous, I think, emotionally for a lot of folks who,

00:04:08.880 you know, who hadn't yet really kind of resolved themselves on that end. Through the lens of a

00:04:17.680 Canadian standing, you know, squarely next to other Canadian citizens, I had a ton of non-Indigenous 1.00

00:04:26.400 people within, within my circles reach out to say, oh my gosh, I had no idea that, you know, kids passed

00:04:35.680 away. And, you know, now I'm diving into the details in and around residential school and what occurred

00:04:44.240 at a lot of these schools. So it was a bit of a blow up moment for Canada in that, you know, as Canadians,

00:04:55.280 we were kind of taking a deeper dive into those federal policies that created those situations and

00:05:04.000 created a lot of discomfort and unease. And then there's a third part that I think merges like me

00:05:12.080 personally, both as an Indigenous woman and as a proud Canadian. It's the part where you look forward.

00:05:19.600 So it's like, okay, so now more people in Canada know that this happened. Our communities, you know,

00:05:26.320 are also kind of like getting themselves together to be able to undertake the work to get the answers

00:05:32.880 that so many families are looking for. And it's the action part is how do we organize ourselves to take

00:05:39.440 that first step forward, and bring about resolution, answers, clarity, certainty, to a situation that,

00:05:48.960 that has a lot of uncertainty. So that's, that's what I would say about, about that one.

00:05:54.960 Oh, yeah, no, absolutely, Karen. That's, that's well said. But let me ask you this. I mean, there is no question

00:06:02.400 that First Nations people in Canada and North America, in general, you know, there was a cultural genocide

00:06:10.080 of sorts that happened to them. And, you know, even to this day, you know, I've looked at some of the data,

00:06:16.240 and they underperform, they're, they're one of the, one of the most poorest communities in Canada,

00:06:21.840 Canada, they, they underperform even relative to new immigrants to Canada, on a range of socio economic 1.00

00:06:29.440 indicators, Indigenous people, you know, are just doing very, very badly. The fact of the matter is 1.00

00:06:37.760 that these, the, the unmarked graves, the controversy that erupted in 2021. The, the, the excavations have

00:06:47.200 yielded no evidence of human remains. It, that, what I want to say here is, that doesn't mean that

00:06:53.840 one is denying what happened to First Nations people. I just want you to address why, I mean,

00:07:00.000 the fact is that there was no evidence of human remains at these sites. And, and the media went

00:07:05.920 ahead and said that there were, you know, 215 bodies found on these sites. What do you make of the media

00:07:14.160 reporting of this when, when, when in reality, after the fact, there were no human remains that were

00:07:20.080 found on these sites? Yeah, I think the media has had to face itself in its own coverage of the

00:07:27.120 situation. It's interesting, like, the choice of language that was used in 2021 to describe

00:07:36.800 Takemloops' experience, you know, at no point did any leadership in Takemloops or any other community

00:07:44.160 say bodies or mass graves or other terms to kind of amplify and exaggerate what we were dealing with.

00:07:55.760 That said, this is where I think media and kind of media strategy kind of misses the mark. It's like,

00:08:06.000 do we really have to exaggerate the fact that some kids turned up dead at residential schools? Like,

00:08:13.440 I don't know that we have to exaggerate that point. And I can appreciate that, you know,

00:08:20.240 you go to journalism school, and they teach you how to write in a compelling way. And ultimately,

00:08:26.000 whoever they write for wants to draw in readers and generate business. And it really comes down to

00:08:31.280 revenue at the end of the day, I think we can all appreciate that. But at the same time, there has to be

00:08:36.400 some ethical boundaries around what it is that we're reporting on and how, and the language that we

00:08:43.600 use to describe those situations. So, you know, I think there are some media who could benefit from

00:08:51.360 a refresher on that end, or possibly even sitting down with someone from the Indigenous community to

00:08:58.320 kind of put a bit of colour into, you know, the picture that they see in black and white.

00:09:05.600 Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the media did a great injustice here to Indigenous communities by

00:09:14.080 exaggerating in the manner that they did. The crimes against Indigenous people are horrific enough. You

00:09:21.200 don't need to, you know, do this. And, you know, and that was deeply problematic, in my opinion. I want to

00:09:28.720 ask you, Karen, if you can speak to the role of ground penetrating technology, radar technology in these

00:09:34.480 excavations, and the limitations of this technology in confirming the presence of human remains.

00:09:42.480 Yeah, I'm really encouraged that there's more people asking this question about what GPR actually does.

00:09:50.080 Because again, in the early reports, media was saying that GPR was being used to identify bodies.

00:09:55.920 But those who kind of dive into the second or third layer in their research will learn that GPR

00:10:01.840 doesn't identify a body, they identify anomalies, shapes, shadows, if you will. And so, to report that

00:10:11.920 their bodies, I think, to our point that we've just made is flawed and irresponsible. And it, you know,

00:10:18.320 doesn't serve to help the situation at all. And Indigenous leaders have been speaking up more about

00:10:26.080 this very point, using platform, trusted platforms where they can trust that the information that they

00:10:32.800 convey is going to be, you know, relayed to the public in the same form that they deliver it.

00:10:38.800 So, GPR is being used. The way I understand it to be is that it is apparently the most recent technology

00:10:47.600 that we have available to send waves into the ground to determine whether or not there are anomalies.

00:10:56.000 But I understand that the GPR work is being undertaken with Church records. And apparently, those Church

00:11:05.840 records will demonstrate what systems were utilized in burying bodies. And so, what I mean by that,

00:11:14.960 for example, is like, you know, the Catholic Church, I don't know the exact dimensions, they might choose

00:11:21.120 to bury people in one straight row, maybe about three feet apart, and then give a certain distance

00:11:28.880 between that row and the next row. So, there are patterns between each Church, and each Church has

00:11:36.240 different patterns that they followed. And my understanding is that communities are taking

00:11:41.200 all of the information that they have available to them, as they undertake that work to complement

00:11:47.520 the GPR process. But, you know, like, I think a big theme here is certainty. We're all craving for it,

00:11:55.840 we're all working towards it. But at the same time, it's a bit of a bit of a slippery slope to get there.

00:12:03.120 Yeah. Going back to the media coverage of this incident, why do you think it took so long for the

00:12:10.640 media to begin to question this claim that there were actual bodies that were found? You know,

00:12:18.480 we're talking about the New York Times, the newspaper, a record, you know, with, you know,

00:12:24.880 going with these headlines, you know, and what do you think were the consequences of this delay in,

00:12:32.400 you know, in critically examining the matter later on? What do you think it did to

00:12:41.360 to Indigenous people? Yeah, so do you mean, like, the role in media in questioning

00:12:48.880 the quality of reporting from 2021? Or do you mean the role of media and just not covering this at

00:12:54.400 all until 2021? Because those are two... Well, both, actually. Those are actually,

00:12:58.640 no, I'm glad you pointed that out. I mean, those are actually two very, very important questions,

00:13:03.840 and I'm glad that you included the second one, but please, by all means, both questions are required,

00:13:09.920 you know? Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:11.520 Yeah. I'm not a journalist. I write, but I'm not a journalist, so I don't engage

00:13:17.920 fulsomely in that industry. Maybe there's a hesitation to challenge your colleagues on

00:13:26.400 the coverage, quality of coverage, that time, you know, timeliness of coverage that they provide,

00:13:32.240 the approach, who knows? You would know that more than me. Maybe it's the fact that we're too

00:13:37.200 Canadian, and we, you know, it's, we want to light step around tough questions and challenges and

00:13:44.240 confrontations, because I think Canadians, by and large, don't like to engage in uncomfortable

00:13:50.480 conversations, possibly the nature of the challenge. Like, are we going to question the reporting on

00:13:59.760 something so absolutely horrific and serious? And if we are going to question, how would you go about

00:14:07.040 doing that in a way that, you know, doesn't cast such a nasty light on you as a journalist or as a

00:14:14.080 reporter? So those are some questions, I don't have answers, but those are some questions that I,

00:14:20.080 or some points that I would consider, um, in evaluating, you know, the, the, the very kind of,

00:14:26.000 like, in intra journalistic, uh, accountability, I guess you could call it. Um, but I think at the end

00:14:35.280 of the day, like, there's, there's a way to do your job, and there's a way to do your job competently,

00:14:41.200 yet respectfully, right? And so, um, I think accountability, transparency are such important

00:14:48.640 principles, especially in today's world, because I, I think we're losing a bit of sight on those,

00:14:53.680 um, principles generally in society. Um, but it might be worth explaining, exploring, I think, uh,

00:15:00.560 more deeply. Um, on the, on the other point that I raised, why did it take so long? Like, this is a

00:15:06.960 question I asked myself. Uh, I followed the work of the TRC, um, and, uh, when they issued their final

00:15:14.960 report in 2015, there's an entire volume on this, like, an entire volume with data and case studies,

00:15:25.120 if you will. Like, I don't, I don't like calling them case studies, but, like, essentially, they're,

00:15:29.920 they're, you know, real life examples of children that, um, that passed on while they were attending

00:15:37.440 school, right? While they, while they were at residential schools. So, I, I have a big question

00:15:42.400 on that. Like, why, like, no one was really, I guess, paying attention, or maybe it wasn't real

00:15:48.320 enough because it was in black and white letters on paper, and, uh, people don't generally find, you

00:15:54.160 know, facts or information compelling, um, doesn't really speak to, you know, the emotional part of

00:16:01.360 our, of our human system, uh, that would respond to that. So, I think I try, like, I try not to harp

00:16:08.160 too much on, like, why didn't we? Um, and I think there's a lot of value in, uh, the fact that we did

00:16:15.280 get there, you know, six years later in 2021, that Takem Loops had the courage to share their story

00:16:20.640 publicly, um, and that, um, subsequently, you know, the country, I think, grew a lot, uh, in those days

00:16:29.120 and in the weeks to follow. Yeah, I think, I think the only positive thing that I can think about the

00:16:35.120 media coverage about this is that it, it, it once again highlighted the atrocities, um, uh, that, um,

00:16:42.880 that Indigenous people have had to face, um, and, you know, I think it makes us once again aware of it,

00:16:50.320 but I just wish they hadn't exaggerated, uh, in the manner that they did, because I feel like it

00:16:55.360 ended up, yeah, re-traumatized, uh, people once all over again, as, uh, you yourself, uh, said at

00:17:02.960 the beginning, you know, it made you aware of this, uh, you know, in, in, in a way that, you know,

00:17:08.240 it was very troubling to you. So, um, you know, but coming back to future excavations and

00:17:15.280 investigations related to residential schools, how do we, um, how do we, um, you know, what steps

00:17:21.440 should we take to ensure that these are conducted with, uh, the greatest amount of transparency,

00:17:26.480 sensitivity, and commitment to, commitment to the truth? Yeah, that's actually a key question,

00:17:33.600 because the one thing that we know is that when government gets involved and tells us how to live

00:17:38.960 our lives and how to take action and take steps forward, it, in my experience, from what I've,

00:17:44.160 I've read, uh, seen and experienced, like it's, it never works out, right? So this first things first,

00:17:51.280 um, you know, government cannot be leading the work to, uh, to, you know, to seek truth and justice in

00:17:58.720 this process. So I think we can all agree on that principle, or maybe some would disagree with me,

00:18:04.800 but I think, you know, a lot of us would agree that government needs to stay out of the way on

00:18:09.440 this one, especially. Um, the, the communities, like I'm a huge fan of the principle of self-determination,

00:18:17.920 um, in the sense that if a community, like it's up to a community to decide what it's going to

00:18:24.400 undertake and to what degree. There are some Indigenous teachings, um, that, uh, set out very clearly

00:18:34.000 where the body, you know, where the spirit leaves the body, that's where the body is to stay.

00:18:39.680 Right. There are other Indigenous protocols and, uh, an ideology where, um, you know, where that,

00:18:46.640 uh, you know, that body has to be returned home. Um, right. So like, who are we to say,

00:18:54.720 armchair quarterbacks over here, how like some small community in like Northern BC is going to undertake,

00:19:01.200 um, you know, their work on this front. So I think letting communities lead for themselves,

00:19:07.680 you know what, Rupa, like maybe some communities just don't want to deal with it at all and that's okay.

00:19:13.120 Right. Like maybe they're just not ready. Um, so I try, uh, to reserve judgment and encourage others to

00:19:20.080 do the same and just say, listen, imagine like your kid or, you know, your cousin, uh, you remember

00:19:30.080 they never made it home. And then you and your family are now faced with this very emotional,

00:19:35.680 very challenging issue, uh, question and how are, you know, how are you going to be able to kind

00:19:42.960 of step through that in order to get to a decision as to whether, you know, how you would go about

00:19:48.000 dealing with this. I would say on average Canadians would struggle big time if they had, if they were

00:19:53.280 faced with that decision. So communities, I think take, you know, need the time and should be taking the

00:19:58.880 time, uh, to undertake that work. Uh, final question for you, Karen, um, how do we promote, 0.97

00:20:06.560 uh, reconciliation, uh, do, do steps like, uh, land acknowledgements, uh, and I have a view on land

00:20:13.440 acknowledgements. Um, I personally think that, um, you know, they're not actually addressing the

00:20:19.360 concerns of indigenous communities. You know, it is just basically, um, you know, it's, it's the laziest 1.00

00:20:26.720 thing to do in my opinion when indigenous communities are struggling to get clean drinking 1.00

00:20:31.680 water in a G7 nation. Um, so, you know, do, do steps like that really help promote reconciliation?

00:20:38.640 Are indigenous people actually, I know you can't speak on behalf of everybody, but just speaking

00:20:44.240 for yourself, do you think those things make a difference in the end? So my kind of like quick

00:20:51.200 answer to that is if they weren't happening, you and I wouldn't be talking about it right now.

00:20:56.560 So number one, if it seeks to challenge, you know, to create, uh, discourse and dialogue,

00:21:04.560 uh, whether it's about the very nature of whether we should do them, whether or not it's sufficient

00:21:09.440 to do them or insufficient. And I agree with you, like, it seems quite topical and performative, uh,

00:21:15.920 at times. Um, but nonetheless, I'm a huge fan of discussion and dialogues. One of the reasons I

00:21:22.880 I am joining you here today. Um, and, and, and by that, I mean, like, uh, not, you know,

00:21:29.680 not with people that you would necessarily agree with, right? Like it's okay to have tough conversations

00:21:34.560 with people who may come at it from a different, uh, ideology, a different experience, um, different

00:21:41.600 considerations. That said, um, land acknowledgements, uh, so I created an app called Who's Land.

00:21:49.040 Uh, it's web based and you can go to the Apple store. We were the featured app this year on June

00:21:54.480 21st, which is pretty exciting. So we're 2 million view, uh, users today. Uh, awesome since we just

00:22:01.280 launched like four ish years ago. Um, and essentially we created it for this very reason. Number one, like,

00:22:08.400 where are people going to get their information? Well, now there's an app for that. So you go to

00:22:13.680 the app and you look around and you, you can, there's, there's an option where you can plug in

00:22:18.320 your city and it'll auto populate like which treaty territory you're in, what nations would have been

00:22:24.880 there before. Um, what are the closest communities to that city? And then from there, like, you know, have

00:22:32.480 the, um, curiosity to look it up and learn more about the history of that territory. Um, and, uh, you know,

00:22:42.400 like you learn things like, um, uh, let's say in Toronto, uh, everyone I think knows Spadina. Um, that's

00:22:51.920 actually one of the original trails that ran from the lakeshore, uh, up into, uh, the escarpment here.

00:22:59.120 And, uh, its original name is Espadina. Um, so naturally became Spadina. Um, and then you can

00:23:07.920 imagine, you know, like why they would have been running up and down that trail over to the water,

00:23:14.640 what contact would have looked like at that point, right? There's a lot of information and history out

00:23:19.440 there and stories that make it really compelling. So there's that kind of like more inquisitive angle.

00:23:24.880 And then, uh, so like learn more about the place that you're standing on. I think it's like a natural,

00:23:31.440 you don't have to be in Canada for that. Like, but then there's the action part to your point.

00:23:36.240 I actually don't see land acknowledgements as land acknowledgements anymore. I see them as like

00:23:40.720 statements of reconciliation. So you're acknowledging where you are. Great. But like, what are you doing

00:23:48.720 personally and like collectively in whatever institution that you represent, like, what are

00:23:54.560 you doing to contribute to the solution? Like I'm a huge, huge fan of results. I love your point that

00:24:01.440 you raised about, you know, we don't even have clean drinking water in these communities across the

00:24:05.920 country. Like what's up with that? That's, that's not okay. So why not use that opportunity to question,

00:24:13.120 to challenge, but also to commit to some sort of contribution to like moving ourselves in, in,

00:24:19.200 in, uh, in the right direction.

00:24:20.960 Well, that's a very well said, Karen. And, um, you know, I know you have to go, but I really

00:24:27.200 appreciate this, uh, great conversation with you. Um, uh, and you know, it was, uh, uh, a privilege to

00:24:34.560 get your insight into this very important topic, uh, on this third anniversary.

00:24:39.360 Can I ask you a question?

00:24:41.040 Sure.

00:24:42.080 Um, sorry. I just want to raise a, like a, another point before we close.

00:24:47.520 I'd be curious to hear you mentioned at the beginning of your show

00:24:50.800 of the show that, um, the disparity between, um, Indigenous people in Canada versus immigrant

00:24:59.360 families and individuals. Um, that's a point that not a lot of people are talking about.

00:25:05.600 Uh, but it's certainly a point that myself and, you know, many cousins and I talk about from time

00:25:11.200 to time. Um, and it's something that we have taken note of and we question and challenge ourselves to

00:25:18.000 determine why is that. Right. Um, but that said, you know, there's no data and there's a whole other

00:25:25.200 issue around like data sovereignty and questions around collecting data about Indigenous people.

00:25:30.400 I would say qualitatively.

00:25:33.360 So yes, there, there are disparities and yes, you know, we, we were challenged to kind of turn ourselves

00:25:39.280 around within a generation or two, if you were to draw a comparator to immigrant families.

00:25:44.160 Um, but at the same time, qualitatively, I think you look around and you can see

00:25:52.160 a lot of Indigenous people who are, you know, stepping into their place in society.

00:26:01.440 And what I'm seeing particularly with the generation that are in their twenties right now,

00:26:06.160 they were raised by parents who made it okay for them. There was, there was no shame in being

00:26:16.640 Indigenous, right? Like that generation, the, the 20 year olds and the teens today, it's parents who

00:26:22.800 are in their thirties and forties who now understand the shame that was caused by the church and state

00:26:28.240 and have fundamentally rejected that and on it and are walking through the world very proudly to be

00:26:33.760 who they are as Anishinaabe, as Indigenous people. And you can imagine what it's like to be raised by

00:26:40.240 that messaging. And so that's what we're seeing in teens and 20 year olds today, very strongly rooted

00:26:45.760 and positioned in their identity and proud. Uh, but also equipping themselves with tools, you know,

00:26:53.840 like sure university degrees, but like, you know, trade certification or whatnot and really kind of

00:27:00.560 trucking forward, um, and reclaiming, you know, a place, uh, within their communities, um, and really

00:27:07.840 moving things and a pretty awesome direction. So I'm with you, there are disparities, but I'm a huge fan

00:27:14.800 of looking at the flip side of things. What, you know, what improvements, what steps forward, what

00:27:20.400 advancements are we making? And I'm seeing, I'm, I'm really encouraged about it. Like we're making

00:27:25.680 strides here. No, that's, uh, thank you for, um, um, giving us that perspective. That should have been

00:27:31.440 one of my questions to you, actually. Maybe you should do the show, but, uh, uh, but that is, that is a

00:27:38.160 very valuable perspective because what is the current, uh, how are young Indigenous, uh, people doing these

00:27:45.200 days? Well, you know, what are they thinking of how, how do they see themselves in this world? Where

00:27:49.760 do they see their future? And these are very, very important questions. And yes, I mean, the data show

00:27:54.480 that, um, uh, Indigenous communities, uh, fare poorly on a range of socioeconomic indicators relative to

00:28:01.600 other groups, including immigrants. But there is also, there's also a lot of hope within this community,

00:28:06.880 as you point out. And that's, uh, that's, that's very important. And, uh, thank you for, uh, sharing that with

00:28:13.120 us and I'm heartened. I'm hoping that this gap will close in, you know, in a generation or two or

00:28:19.520 perhaps even less. Um, and, uh, and, and, you know, and then we won't be having these kinds of

00:28:26.240 conversations hopefully, but, uh, but thank you so much, Karen. And, uh, I really hope to have you

00:28:31.840 again soon and, uh, really, uh, enjoyed this conversation and for sharing your perspective with us.

00:28:37.680 Thanks so much. Happy to join. Thanks.

00:28:40.560 Thanks.

00:28:43.120 Thanks.

Juno News - October 07, 2023

Uncovering the truth behind the ‘unmarked graves’

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