Juno News - January 30, 2024


UNRWA association with terrorists is nothing new


Episode Stats

Length

44 minutes

Words per Minute

186.94942

Word Count

8,234

Sentence Count

356

Hate Speech Sentences

8


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:05.540 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.480 Hello and welcome to you all.
00:00:14.860 This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:18.440 The Andrew Lawton Show coming to you from Washington, D.C., where you will,
00:00:23.860 well, if you saw the show yesterday, you're aware of why I'm here.
00:00:26.620 And that is to, in part, report on the trial of Mark Stein,
00:00:31.560 the legendary Canadian commentator and author who is standing trial for allegations of defaming
00:00:38.100 a renowned climate scientist that has, well, we'll get to all that in a few moments.
00:00:43.620 I'll give the trial update shortly.
00:00:45.840 And it was actually a bit of a barn burner in court yesterday.
00:00:49.580 But I want to begin talking about this story, which is international,
00:00:53.460 but certainly has come to Canada's doorstep here.
00:00:56.740 Now, I'm going to try not to bog you down in the really lengthy, lengthy history on this,
00:01:03.260 but I'm probably going to have to dip in and out of that as we go on.
00:01:06.820 But at its core, it's about an organization called UNRWA,
00:01:10.420 which is a United Nations refugee agency specifically in Palestinian territories,
00:01:16.700 or for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
00:01:20.280 Now, UNRWA has been operating outside of the norm for United Nations refugee agencies,
00:01:26.220 because this is one that deals with a very specific region.
00:01:30.420 It's been situated there for many years and has always been fraught with challenges.
00:01:35.400 One of the big reasons is in Gaza,
00:01:38.640 there's no such thing as aid to Gazans that doesn't in some way have to get filtered through Hamas.
00:01:44.740 And this is one of the big problems, where a lot of humanitarian aid is, in fact, supporting Hamas,
00:01:50.620 because either intentionally or unintentionally, because Hamas is diverting resources and so on.
00:01:56.580 This is not new, and it shouldn't even be controversial to point this out.
00:02:01.060 Now, where we get into challenges with UNRWA is that UNRWA is staffed by locals.
00:02:06.380 I think it has about 30,000 employees.
00:02:08.120 Many of these locals are not just these, you know, happy-go-lucky aid workers who are there
00:02:13.440 because they want to believe that the Palestinian people deserve a little bit of foreign and international support.
00:02:19.760 No, they are supporters of the very problems and the people causing those problems in these regions.
00:02:27.980 Now, one of the most extreme examples of this is an allegation from Israel
00:02:32.520 that a dozen UNRWA staffers were involved or complicit in the October 7th attacks.
00:02:40.320 Now, according to the allegations from Israel, seven of these 12 literally were part of the invasion.
00:02:47.140 They literally crossed into Israel to participate in the attacks.
00:02:50.780 I think it was, I've seen conflicting evidence here.
00:02:53.220 I think two were participants in kidnappings.
00:02:57.340 One participated in a kidnap, another helped steal a soldier's body.
00:03:01.800 So these are pretty extreme accusations against staff from UNRWA
00:03:05.900 that, again, go well beyond what anyone would expect from an aid worker,
00:03:11.500 some humanitarian aid worker that is also participating in a massive terrorist attack
00:03:16.140 that killed about 1,300 people.
00:03:19.060 So all of this is to say we should be putting UNRWA under the microscope.
00:03:23.120 Now, none of this is new information if you go beyond October 7th.
00:03:27.360 There have been issues going back decades about UNRWA's ties to Hamas.
00:03:31.800 This is why Stephen Harper and the Conservatives in Canada were so critical of this
00:03:36.060 and decided to cut off the organization,
00:03:38.340 although Justin Trudeau decided to go all in on reinstating and bolstering it.
00:03:43.340 So we fast forward to today.
00:03:45.140 You had the international community making demands.
00:03:47.900 I should back that up.
00:03:49.020 Not the international community, but people internationally.
00:03:52.460 Making demands to cut funding off.
00:03:54.880 Now, it took Canada a few days, but eventually the federal government admitted it would be pausing funding to UNRWA.
00:04:02.140 Pausing.
00:04:03.220 Well, as we learned yesterday, that pause isn't actually a pause at all.
00:04:08.220 There is a report that I initially saw from journalist Helene Buzetti,
00:04:12.620 who writes in French but translated to English,
00:04:15.540 that Ottawa is not actually holding back any planned funds at all.
00:04:20.140 What's happening is Canada has provided an additional $60 million to the Palestinian people,
00:04:27.000 part of which went through UNRWA.
00:04:29.020 But this money has already been paid.
00:04:32.460 So saying we're pausing it isn't actually a pause at all,
00:04:36.380 because there was no new money committed.
00:04:38.740 The next payment isn't scheduled until March and April of this year.
00:04:44.100 And at that point, we don't know if the government is going to be pausing that or going through with it,
00:04:49.740 because they could say, well, we've done our investigation, and that's that.
00:04:53.000 So there is a question to the government about whether that payment will go through or not.
00:04:58.320 But even so, the federal government's stated intention here is to pause that funding.
00:05:04.760 So let's just drill down on the stated intention,
00:05:07.140 because the response to this from people on the left is that,
00:05:10.680 okay, UNRWA may have been helping terrorists,
00:05:14.120 but how dare you cut off their funding?
00:05:17.240 I'm not making this up.
00:05:18.380 Heidi Matthews, who is an assistant professor of law at Osgoode,
00:05:22.220 that's over at York University.
00:05:23.960 She's very well educated.
00:05:25.660 She has a Harvard degree.
00:05:27.800 She says,
00:05:28.160 And she links so that you can donate yourself
00:05:42.780 if you're interested in supporting, evidently, terrorism.
00:05:46.460 And then we also had Heather McPherson,
00:05:48.740 who's a Canadian member of Parliament.
00:05:50.540 She's with the New Democrats.
00:05:51.880 She gave this impassioned plea in the House of Commons about this.
00:05:56.000 The same day that the ICJ ruled that there is a risk of genocide in Gaza,
00:06:01.180 the Liberals paused funding to UNRWA,
00:06:03.520 which is a lifeline for millions of innocent Palestinians.
00:06:07.540 People will lose their lives.
00:06:09.860 And unbelievably, the Conservative leader has accused
00:06:14.280 30,000 UNRWA humanitarian workers of being terrorists.
00:06:18.060 He does not deserve to lead.
00:06:20.440 We support an investigation into the 12 former staff,
00:06:23.420 but defunding UNRWA is collective punishment,
00:06:26.680 and it is illegal.
00:06:27.960 When will the Liberals stop abandoning Palestinians?
00:06:31.500 Hear, hear, hear, hear.
00:06:33.480 I like how it's, by the way, this little afterthought,
00:06:36.420 that, oh yeah, yeah, no, of course we support an investigation,
00:06:38.820 but it's always the but you have to pay attention to.
00:06:41.900 And in the case of Heather McPherson,
00:06:44.100 we're talking about a woman here who has,
00:06:47.420 as her first reaction,
00:06:49.020 her first reaction to news that this agency was supporting terrorism
00:06:54.400 is to say, well, I'm going to make a personal donation as well.
00:06:58.520 Because like Heidi Matthews,
00:06:59.800 Heather McPherson is ponying up some personal money for that.
00:07:03.020 Now, I certainly hope she's not going to bill that to her office account.
00:07:06.000 I have no evidence one way or another.
00:07:07.660 If it is a personal donation, it should be a personal donation.
00:07:10.740 Now, there are, believe it or not, laws in this country
00:07:13.540 against funding terrorism and funding terror.
00:07:16.620 Now, I'm not going so far as to say that a dollar donated to UNRWA
00:07:20.000 is a dollar donated to terrorism,
00:07:22.080 but we should certainly look in the mirror
00:07:24.460 if we are motivated to donate to an organization
00:07:27.040 that has literally been accused for years,
00:07:31.300 not just for days,
00:07:32.500 for years of being complicit,
00:07:34.520 if not outright supportive
00:07:36.840 of a lot of terrorist actions in the region.
00:07:40.420 There was a moment back in, I think it was 2004,
00:07:43.340 where it was literally UNRWA vehicles that were being used as the getaway
00:07:47.400 after a bombing had taken place against Israelis.
00:07:51.300 So, this is not new,
00:07:53.120 but it is an extreme allegation that should be taken very seriously.
00:07:57.060 And it's rather despicable that you have so many
00:07:58.820 on the progressive left that say,
00:08:00.720 all right, well, I want to keep donating to that.
00:08:02.860 So, there are two options here
00:08:04.180 if you just want to distill it into crude terms.
00:08:06.260 Either A, you think Israelis are liars,
00:08:10.200 or B, you believe the allegation,
00:08:13.120 but don't really care about it.
00:08:14.900 Now, I suspect that some of them fit into either camp.
00:08:18.620 I mean, even Heather McPherson's comment there was basically,
00:08:21.620 well, yeah, we should investigate,
00:08:23.160 but, you know, we can't, you know, label them all with one brush.
00:08:26.200 He took aim at conservative leader Pierre Polyev's response to all this
00:08:29.700 because he was unflinching about this when he spoke about it.
00:08:33.360 Trudeau's been funding foreign terrorists and dictators,
00:08:36.840 calling it aid.
00:08:38.100 He gave money to UNRWA, right?
00:08:40.440 We warned.
00:08:41.480 We warned what would happen if you gave money to UNRWA.
00:08:44.320 We cut the funds for UNRWA when we were in government.
00:08:47.000 And what happened?
00:08:51.260 Justin Trudeau funded the same organization
00:08:55.080 whose members helped carry out the genocidal October 7th attack.
00:09:00.300 Justin Trudeau should be ashamed of himself.
00:09:03.780 I thought that was a very strong note.
00:09:06.320 And whether you like or dislike Pierre Polyev,
00:09:08.400 he's been incredibly unflinching when it comes,
00:09:11.460 to use that word again, when it comes to this issue,
00:09:14.320 as former Prime Minister Stephen Harper was as well.
00:09:18.320 Now, I know that a lot of you,
00:09:20.080 and this comes up on this show from time to time,
00:09:21.900 whenever I do talk about foreign policy,
00:09:23.660 a lot of you are minded to say that this has nothing to do with this.
00:09:26.160 Why do we even care?
00:09:27.200 Why do we have to pay attention?
00:09:29.060 Now, I'm sympathetic to that argument, by the way.
00:09:31.460 If you say, you know what,
00:09:32.300 I don't want to get involved in a foreign conflict.
00:09:34.920 But I think there are two things to say about that.
00:09:37.040 Number one, a foreign conflict does not apply to a situation
00:09:40.840 in which terrorists stormed into a sovereign country
00:09:44.880 and targeted civilians.
00:09:46.020 This is not a state versus state war.
00:09:48.340 This is something very different than that.
00:09:50.100 It's a terrorist attack,
00:09:51.100 and I wouldn't particularly like it
00:09:52.880 if other countries looked at 9-11 after September 11th, 2001,
00:09:57.200 and said, oh, that's just some foreign conflict.
00:09:59.320 It doesn't affect us.
00:10:00.040 If you're able to provide aid and support.
00:10:02.940 Secondly, when we're talking about funding UNRWA,
00:10:05.620 this is a Canadian problem
00:10:07.240 because it's the Canadian government
00:10:08.640 that has been in part fueling UNRWA
00:10:11.140 and funding this organization.
00:10:13.420 So it is very much a Canadian story
00:10:16.060 when you're talking about
00:10:17.100 the Canadian government's response to this.
00:10:19.860 And the Canadian government,
00:10:20.920 it took them some time,
00:10:22.420 but eventually they did the right thing it looked like.
00:10:25.200 But as we see when you look at the details,
00:10:27.820 they may not actually be at all.
00:10:29.480 So I would say very much keep the pressure up on that.
00:10:32.880 As I mentioned at the outset of the show,
00:10:34.740 and as we delved into a fair bit yesterday,
00:10:37.060 I am right now in Washington, D.C.
00:10:39.740 This is why I'm not doing the show from the regular digs,
00:10:42.740 but from a generic,
00:10:44.260 usually it's a generic nondescript hotel.
00:10:47.260 This one, I guess I'm in a funky little chair
00:10:49.280 that makes it a little less nondescript,
00:10:51.440 but I didn't choose the hotel.
00:10:52.760 Anyway, we are in Washington, D.C. this week
00:10:55.720 because Mark Stein,
00:10:57.620 who is a long friend of mine,
00:10:59.540 and I've worked with him on a number of projects,
00:11:01.380 including the upcoming Mark Stein Cruise,
00:11:03.640 which I know a few of you are going to be on,
00:11:05.660 and I'll be speaking on that.
00:11:07.880 But I've known him for many years,
00:11:09.400 so I'm not going to pretend
00:11:10.640 that I'm coming into this thinking,
00:11:12.560 oh, maybe he's in the right, maybe.
00:11:14.280 No, I think he is absolutely in the right.
00:11:17.200 And I wanted to bring you a little bit up to speed on this
00:11:19.980 because we danced around some of the key themes yesterday
00:11:22.660 when I was chatting with Phelan McAleer about this.
00:11:25.840 But this goes back 12 years.
00:11:27.560 Michael Mann is the creator of the hockey stick graph.
00:11:30.920 The graph that we showed yesterday
00:11:32.660 shows that, well, there's been like no global warming
00:11:34.760 for a thousand years,
00:11:35.740 and then once humans start doing things,
00:11:38.000 boom, it shoots up.
00:11:39.180 And one of the reasons this has been such a useful tool
00:11:43.320 is because it is a tool
00:11:45.680 that shows drastic human reasons to blame humanity,
00:11:51.240 effectively, for global warming.
00:11:52.760 This was the hockey stick graph
00:11:53.960 that Al Gore made famous in An Inconvenient Truth,
00:11:57.100 which was so inconvenient,
00:11:58.100 it might not have even been true.
00:12:00.020 And Michael Mann has become a climate celebrity
00:12:02.740 because of his work on this.
00:12:05.200 Now, what this means for Canadians,
00:12:07.520 it's the document, the graph,
00:12:09.600 that was used to justify Paul Martin
00:12:12.000 trying to get everyone into the Kyoto Accord.
00:12:14.100 It's been at the core of a lot of government's responses
00:12:17.160 to the climate discussion.
00:12:19.580 And there are significant challenges with it.
00:12:22.380 For starters, he presumes that he can come up
00:12:25.240 with global temperatures for any point in time,
00:12:28.880 even contemporary periods,
00:12:30.620 but also global temperatures going back hundreds of years.
00:12:34.440 And the methodology of this has been challenged
00:12:37.480 by eminent scientists who, by the way,
00:12:39.000 believe that global warming is a problem,
00:12:40.880 but don't believe in Michael Mann's version of it.
00:12:44.180 Now, Mark Stein, in true Mark Stein fashion,
00:12:46.360 called this graph fraudulent.
00:12:48.480 He looked at it.
00:12:49.340 He looked at the raw data.
00:12:50.500 He's not a scientist,
00:12:51.240 but he still deduced from what he was reading
00:12:53.960 that this was not a valid piece of science.
00:12:58.560 And he, as commentators, are allowed to do,
00:13:00.560 especially in a country with First Amendment protections,
00:13:03.020 as the United States has, wrote about this.
00:13:05.540 And he wrote that this was a fraud.
00:13:07.880 And he had been writing about this for years.
00:13:10.080 And when it really seemed to attract Michael Mann's ire
00:13:13.920 was when there was a pair of blog posts.
00:13:16.760 One was written by a gentleman named Rand Simberg.
00:13:19.360 The other was written by Mark Stein.
00:13:20.940 Back, again, 2012, we're talking about here.
00:13:24.660 And it was at the time that there had been
00:13:26.860 major controversy at Penn State
00:13:28.700 where Michael Mann worked involving Jerry Sandusky
00:13:31.880 and the school's cover-up of Jerry Sandusky,
00:13:34.840 the athletic director's sexual assault.
00:13:37.300 Now, I mean, without getting even more into the weeds
00:13:39.380 than I already have,
00:13:40.460 Penn State had investigated Mann,
00:13:43.080 not for anything to do with anything remotely
00:13:45.420 to do with what Sandusky did,
00:13:47.460 but for his academic research and process.
00:13:51.080 And the reality was there was an accusation
00:13:54.520 that Penn State was committed
00:13:55.820 to covering up both situations.
00:13:57.660 And that was really what Rand Simberg
00:14:00.100 and Mark Stein were talking about.
00:14:01.660 But of course, in Mann's view, he's like,
00:14:03.520 oh, you've called me a child molester.
00:14:05.380 And I mean, look, there was one great line
00:14:07.100 from Mark's column that, and by great,
00:14:09.580 I just mean notable line from it,
00:14:11.160 where he says that he tortured and molested data
00:14:15.000 instead of children.
00:14:16.620 Now, this is a bit of a perhaps controversial
00:14:19.640 or edgy thing to say,
00:14:21.260 but it was clear that he was talking
00:14:23.360 about two very different things,
00:14:25.780 what Sandusky did and what Mann did.
00:14:28.000 And he was linking it by talking about Penn State
00:14:30.800 and some very legitimate issues with that school.
00:14:33.900 Now, a lot of people would listen to that.
00:14:35.980 I mean, this is a jury trial.
00:14:37.200 It's possible the jury is listening to that
00:14:39.080 and thinking, okay, like, yeah,
00:14:40.260 maybe I agree or disagree.
00:14:42.120 Why has this been 12 years of litigation
00:14:44.560 to get to the point where we're sitting
00:14:46.020 in a courtroom talking about it?
00:14:47.840 And I think that's a very valid question.
00:14:49.940 But it's also a free speech issue.
00:14:52.120 It's a climate change issue.
00:14:53.400 It's an academic freedom issue.
00:14:54.860 It's all of these things.
00:14:55.980 Do you have a right to criticize
00:14:57.820 and diverge very starkly
00:15:00.420 from someone with letters after their name
00:15:03.320 who's been fetted by governments
00:15:04.780 who parties with Leo DiCaprio?
00:15:06.340 Do you have a right to criticize them?
00:15:09.160 And if so, what are the limits of that?
00:15:10.880 So that's been why I've been interested in this case
00:15:13.880 and also my knowledge of the case
00:15:16.200 because I've known Mark for so long
00:15:17.920 and I've followed this work
00:15:19.400 and I've read this and I've read his book on it
00:15:22.180 and I haven't read Mann's book in full.
00:15:24.220 I've read parts of it.
00:15:25.340 But one of the things I wanted to bring up
00:15:27.440 that came up yesterday in trial,
00:15:30.020 which was quite interesting,
00:15:31.100 was how little Michael Mann has suffered.
00:15:34.180 And this is, I think, the fascinating part of it
00:15:36.540 because to prove that you have been defamed in court,
00:15:39.920 you don't just need to say,
00:15:41.100 this person said something mean about me
00:15:43.000 or said something defamatory about me.
00:15:44.680 You have to prove that the blow landed
00:15:47.400 to put a colloquial spin on it.
00:15:50.260 You have to prove that you suffered damages.
00:15:52.940 Now, look, there is a whole legal test
00:15:55.380 and I'm not an American lawyer,
00:15:56.780 I'm not a Canadian lawyer either for that matter,
00:15:58.600 but there's a whole legal test.
00:16:00.140 But one of the most important things
00:16:01.540 is you have to prove that you were harmed.
00:16:04.140 And there was a quite stunning display in court yesterday
00:16:08.600 where one of the lawyers who was representing Ran Simberg,
00:16:12.520 not Mark, Mark's actually self-representing.
00:16:15.220 So one of Ran Simberg's lawyers went up and pointed,
00:16:17.720 and actually Mark did this as well
00:16:19.060 when he was cross-examining Michael Mann,
00:16:21.280 and he pointed out how pretty much every single metric
00:16:25.620 financially has gone up in his life.
00:16:30.060 His salary is higher, his awards are greater,
00:16:34.100 the number of book royalties he's cashing in are higher,
00:16:38.000 the number of parties he's going to
00:16:40.020 where he's meeting with celebrities
00:16:41.520 and heads of state and heads of government is higher.
00:16:43.960 He was at Penn State, which is a decent school,
00:16:46.420 but it's a state university in Pennsylvania
00:16:48.320 at the beginning of this controversy.
00:16:50.240 Now he's at the University of Pennsylvania,
00:16:52.520 which is in the Ivy League.
00:16:54.400 So for a guy who claims he was irreparably defamed,
00:16:58.580 every part of his life seems to be in better standing
00:17:02.180 than it was at the outset of this.
00:17:04.280 The only damages, the only damages
00:17:06.560 he's been able to possibly point to
00:17:08.520 are what he says amount to lost grants.
00:17:12.200 Now grants wouldn't have gone to him.
00:17:13.960 They would have gone to his university.
00:17:15.700 But even so, he can't even say this was the reason.
00:17:18.240 He can't say, and I lost this grant funding
00:17:20.720 because of what they said.
00:17:23.860 This is a guy who has picked a lot of fights
00:17:25.980 with a lot of people over the years.
00:17:27.400 So even if these grant losses were connected
00:17:31.400 to defamation he had endured, which is dubious at best,
00:17:36.800 there's no guarantee it came down
00:17:38.240 to the specific defamation at issue
00:17:40.300 from Mark Stein and Rand Simberg.
00:17:42.360 And look, for a case that's been going on a dozen years,
00:17:45.660 and I'm coming in at week three of this trial,
00:17:47.820 this has been going on for two weeks,
00:17:49.160 I kind of would have assumed that there had been
00:17:51.660 a more compelling case to be made
00:17:54.540 about where the defamation was.
00:17:56.700 Now, again, the jury is the one who's going to decide this.
00:18:00.520 To me, that seems risky to have a defamation trial
00:18:03.420 decided by a jury
00:18:04.980 because they're not necessarily minded
00:18:06.840 to adhere to the law.
00:18:08.320 They might just come down to who they like better
00:18:10.240 at the end.
00:18:10.620 I don't know.
00:18:11.440 I think it will depend on how specific
00:18:13.120 and how clear those jury instructions are.
00:18:16.100 But my goodness, it was baffling to me
00:18:18.000 that after so many years
00:18:19.480 and such an expensive claim of defamation,
00:18:23.760 I mean, it's expensive for all involved.
00:18:25.520 The lawyers are making big money on this.
00:18:27.100 Now, Michael Mann testified that he has not had to spend
00:18:29.800 any of his own personal money.
00:18:31.480 So that's an interesting question
00:18:33.360 about who is funding his legal representation.
00:18:36.300 But after all that,
00:18:37.260 he still can't point to anything that he lost,
00:18:41.240 which is very, very important.
00:18:43.120 Now, in keeping with the climate theme,
00:18:45.780 at least peripherally today,
00:18:47.300 I wanted to take this opportunity
00:18:48.840 to launch a new series
00:18:50.860 we are going to be doing
00:18:51.860 on The Andrew Lawton Show
00:18:52.800 over the next couple of weeks.
00:18:53.880 Now, we were going to be doing this anyway.
00:18:55.740 It is a series that takes aim
00:18:57.680 at the so-called Just Transition,
00:19:00.980 which is a global initiative.
00:19:02.900 It comes from the United Nations
00:19:04.580 and the Paris Accord,
00:19:05.640 but it's one that has very much been embraced
00:19:07.920 by the Canadian government with gusto.
00:19:11.060 And it is an initiative
00:19:12.760 that presupposes we need to transition away
00:19:16.180 from the oil and gas sector.
00:19:18.160 Now, they try to put it in nice terms
00:19:19.640 and say, well, it's a just transition
00:19:21.460 because we want it to be just
00:19:23.160 for the people who work in that sector.
00:19:25.300 But all of the people who work in that sector
00:19:27.540 that I've spoken to
00:19:28.420 have a very different perspective
00:19:30.540 on what that means.
00:19:32.200 So I wanted to actually take
00:19:33.720 the next couple of weeks,
00:19:34.880 and we've partnered with our friends
00:19:36.400 at the Modern Miracle Network
00:19:37.420 to make this happen,
00:19:38.760 to share interviews I have done
00:19:40.560 with leaders in the oil and gas sector
00:19:43.280 to talk about what they're doing,
00:19:45.020 to talk about why the Just Transition
00:19:47.300 is in fact an unjust transition,
00:19:49.900 and to talk about the side
00:19:51.540 of the oil and gas sector in this country
00:19:53.020 we never actually get to hear from,
00:19:54.840 which is the positive side.
00:19:57.060 Yeah, it's not the side the media
00:19:58.240 and the government want to talk about.
00:20:00.500 So this is the first part.
00:20:02.100 It's a bit of a primer
00:20:02.860 for the Unjust Transition series.
00:20:05.020 My interview with Michael Binion,
00:20:06.660 who is the head of the Modern Miracle Network,
00:20:09.040 but also the head of Questair Energy.
00:20:11.860 I'm sitting down with Michael Binion.
00:20:14.460 Now, you wear a number of different hats.
00:20:16.840 Normally, I speak to you in your capacity
00:20:18.580 as Executive Director
00:20:19.560 of the Modern Miracle Network,
00:20:20.980 but we do things a little bit differently today,
00:20:23.120 I thought.
00:20:23.480 You're also the CEO of Questair,
00:20:25.440 which is one of Canada's many successful companies
00:20:28.020 in the energy sector.
00:20:29.880 Whatever hat you're wearing,
00:20:30.880 it's always good to talk to you.
00:20:32.100 Well, thank you.
00:20:32.600 And I think you need to see me
00:20:33.620 in the cutaway app.
00:20:34.340 Yes, yeah, all sorts of get-ups,
00:20:36.140 I believe.
00:20:36.920 Well, let's talk.
00:20:38.260 We've been discussing the Just Transition
00:20:39.900 with you and some of your colleagues
00:20:41.520 while we've been here,
00:20:42.580 but let me just first ask
00:20:44.300 what your company is doing
00:20:46.100 in this space that's a bit unique right now.
00:20:48.780 Yeah, well, I appreciate the compliment
00:20:50.960 that we're one of Canada's
00:20:52.060 many successful energy companies,
00:20:54.080 but we're far less successful
00:20:55.700 than we believe we deserve to.
00:20:58.000 We started our company
00:20:59.220 as a high-risk exploration company
00:21:01.980 looking for giant gas fields.
00:21:05.540 And unexpectedly,
00:21:06.780 although, of course,
00:21:07.840 it's like I say to my friends
00:21:09.240 when I sink a 60-foot putt,
00:21:10.600 they tell me I'm lucky.
00:21:11.360 I say, well, I was aiming at it.
00:21:12.880 So we were aiming
00:21:13.940 and finding a giant field,
00:21:14.940 but we did.
00:21:15.840 It's the only giant shale field
00:21:18.640 that one company found
00:21:20.360 and also captured,
00:21:21.460 and it's the Utica Shale in Quebec.
00:21:23.620 And so it's a multi-billion dollars,
00:21:27.120 25 TCF of gas.
00:21:28.800 It would be like Churchill Falls
00:21:30.040 for 70 years.
00:21:31.200 That's how big it is.
00:21:32.240 And we've been stymied
00:21:34.060 from developing it
00:21:35.060 due to Quebec politics.
00:21:38.000 It's been an effective ban
00:21:39.380 for 13 years.
00:21:40.980 I say I always thought
00:21:41.640 the hard part was spying
00:21:42.440 and I've now realized
00:21:43.100 producing it's even harder.
00:21:44.600 So we'll talk about
00:21:45.580 those issues in a moment,
00:21:46.660 but I mean,
00:21:46.960 one of the recurring themes
00:21:47.900 that comes up here
00:21:48.660 is that the demand exists.
00:21:49.980 The demand doesn't go away.
00:21:51.140 All of the problems
00:21:52.040 that are the barriers
00:21:53.340 that are put up by the activists
00:21:54.720 are trying to limit supply,
00:21:56.440 but the demand is growing
00:21:58.460 and certainly is maintaining.
00:22:00.380 So when you're prevented
00:22:02.260 from unlocking these resources,
00:22:04.400 as you say,
00:22:05.120 all it means is that
00:22:05.880 some other supplier
00:22:06.820 that is not as diligent
00:22:08.460 at following these regulations
00:22:09.980 and complying with the laws
00:22:11.500 and the spirit of the law,
00:22:12.860 they're the beneficiaries of it.
00:22:14.940 Yeah, that's certainly,
00:22:15.980 I think,
00:22:16.800 an important argument
00:22:17.560 that we've made just like,
00:22:19.340 when it's so true
00:22:20.500 of our leap
00:22:21.340 and our discovery in Quebec.
00:22:24.260 And this was a flummoxing thing
00:22:27.320 to find,
00:22:28.020 and I'm not sure
00:22:28.880 people really realize it,
00:22:30.200 but I've had people,
00:22:32.860 I've had dinner
00:22:33.840 with Stephen Gilbo.
00:22:34.940 I've had Patrick Bonin,
00:22:37.300 the head of Greenpeace
00:22:38.460 in Quebec,
00:22:39.540 World Wildlife Fund,
00:22:41.080 Suzuki.
00:22:41.880 I've had them all tell me,
00:22:44.180 as I said,
00:22:44.940 that if we were
00:22:46.140 to produce local gas,
00:22:48.120 it would be a material reduction
00:22:50.280 in Canadian emissions.
00:22:52.080 And in the end,
00:22:52.720 they said,
00:22:52.960 we don't care
00:22:53.560 because we want Quebec
00:22:55.460 to meet its targets.
00:22:56.980 And your project
00:22:58.120 is going to increase
00:22:59.060 Quebec emissions,
00:23:00.220 even as it reduces
00:23:01.280 Canadian emissions.
00:23:03.100 So this is something
00:23:04.680 that I learned in 2011, 2012,
00:23:08.020 years before
00:23:09.080 the cancellation of Gateway.
00:23:10.500 This is why we've been,
00:23:11.440 I think,
00:23:11.620 at the leading edge
00:23:12.240 of these discussions,
00:23:13.360 corporately and politically,
00:23:15.640 is because of realizing early
00:23:19.540 that it's all about
00:23:21.900 meeting targets
00:23:23.500 and, I guess,
00:23:25.320 to some extent,
00:23:25.860 virtue signaling
00:23:26.540 rather than making
00:23:27.340 a real difference.
00:23:28.680 That argument for us
00:23:29.680 in Quebec,
00:23:30.300 if we produce local gas,
00:23:31.700 we emit,
00:23:32.560 like, a really large
00:23:33.620 reduction in Canadian emissions.
00:23:35.020 It's true for the world, too.
00:23:36.640 If Canada produces more,
00:23:39.140 the world emissions go down
00:23:40.600 because we're more
00:23:41.540 environmentally efficient.
00:23:43.400 You emphasized the word stated
00:23:46.080 when you said
00:23:46.840 the stated objectives.
00:23:48.340 What did you mean by that?
00:23:49.500 Well, in part this,
00:23:50.860 the stated objective
00:23:51.840 is to reduce global emissions.
00:23:55.400 And yet,
00:23:56.480 they're against projects
00:23:57.560 that would do that.
00:23:59.180 Because at the end of the day,
00:24:00.740 they want to be able to say,
00:24:01.860 I met a local target.
00:24:03.560 And they don't.
00:24:04.080 And seemingly,
00:24:06.080 it's not a priority.
00:24:08.000 I don't want to say
00:24:08.700 they don't care,
00:24:09.500 but it doesn't seem
00:24:10.480 to be a priority.
00:24:12.160 But the globe's emissions
00:24:13.540 would go down
00:24:14.320 if Canada would just
00:24:15.460 produce more aluminum
00:24:16.400 or more gas
00:24:18.060 or more LNG.
00:24:19.140 The global emissions
00:24:20.320 would go down,
00:24:21.360 even though Canada's
00:24:22.220 might go up a bit.
00:24:24.320 But is it a global problem?
00:24:25.820 Are we supposed to be
00:24:26.960 acting locally
00:24:28.100 and thinking globally?
00:24:29.460 But I don't,
00:24:30.320 when I say stated,
00:24:31.180 that's because
00:24:31.660 I'm not so sure
00:24:32.940 that they really want
00:24:34.640 to think globally
00:24:35.560 in their local atmosphere.
00:24:37.080 The government has said
00:24:38.360 that the just transition,
00:24:39.760 I mean,
00:24:40.460 they presented it basically
00:24:41.460 as a fait accompli,
00:24:42.600 as though they're already
00:24:43.580 going to do this.
00:24:44.240 It's just a matter
00:24:44.760 of mitigating the harms
00:24:46.140 and effects on jobs
00:24:47.860 to people that are currently
00:24:48.740 working in this space.
00:24:50.020 Have you seen anything
00:24:51.180 from their proposals
00:24:53.100 that have been put forward
00:24:54.240 so far
00:24:54.740 that suggests
00:24:55.280 there will be
00:24:55.800 a soft landing
00:24:56.960 for the scores
00:24:57.840 of Canadians
00:24:58.420 that will be out of work
00:24:59.280 if this dream
00:25:00.420 comes to fruition?
00:25:01.780 Yeah.
00:25:02.140 I mean,
00:25:02.440 I just can't imagine.
00:25:03.380 I mean,
00:25:03.880 I'm chairman
00:25:04.920 of a Greek services company
00:25:07.040 and we're over
00:25:08.160 in Papua New Guinea.
00:25:08.880 I mean,
00:25:09.180 we're giving amazing jobs
00:25:11.200 to people.
00:25:11.840 We literally take people
00:25:13.200 out of grass huts
00:25:13.820 in the jungle
00:25:14.380 and it's hard to imagine.
00:25:15.600 It's true.
00:25:16.140 We're in the highlands
00:25:17.120 of Papua New Guinea.
00:25:18.240 We bring people
00:25:19.000 out of the jungle.
00:25:19.660 We teach them
00:25:20.160 how to drive a truck,
00:25:21.300 how to run a crane.
00:25:22.720 Ultimately,
00:25:23.260 over 15 years,
00:25:24.660 we've brought them
00:25:25.320 up to the point
00:25:25.900 where they're the driller,
00:25:27.540 which is the work
00:25:28.240 for the supervising manager
00:25:29.640 of the entire
00:25:30.300 break operation.
00:25:31.560 These are $500 million
00:25:32.940 operations
00:25:33.700 and we've got
00:25:34.820 local indigenous
00:25:35.860 Papua New Guinea people
00:25:36.860 running these things.
00:25:38.080 These are incredible jobs.
00:25:40.300 I just can't even imagine
00:25:41.540 telling those people
00:25:42.820 in Papua New Guinea
00:25:43.500 that now got themselves
00:25:44.600 out of grass hut
00:25:45.340 in the jungle
00:25:46.340 or a Canadian here,
00:25:48.360 go from your $150,000
00:25:49.860 to $250,000 job
00:25:51.440 running a rig
00:25:52.020 and go sweep snow
00:25:53.680 off supermails.
00:25:54.500 It just doesn't make sense.
00:25:55.880 I mean,
00:25:56.400 to talk about
00:25:57.080 the Canadian context
00:25:58.120 here for a moment
00:25:58.880 with indigenous concerns
00:26:01.580 and that there are
00:26:02.200 some legitimate
00:26:02.680 indigenous communities
00:26:03.580 that have concerns
00:26:04.720 about this,
00:26:05.140 but I find oftentimes
00:26:06.060 indigenous issues
00:26:07.680 are elevated by activists
00:26:09.040 that would be opposed
00:26:09.720 to the projects in general
00:26:10.900 and I think that's,
00:26:11.760 I'd say,
00:26:12.540 true of Quebec.
00:26:13.600 You've done a lot
00:26:14.880 to forge relationships
00:26:16.100 with indigenous communities
00:26:17.140 that really want
00:26:17.760 these projects,
00:26:18.480 really want this development.
00:26:19.940 Yeah.
00:26:20.400 In our corporate,
00:26:21.780 you know,
00:26:22.020 I do this a lot
00:26:23.120 in sort of advocacy
00:26:24.260 and discussions
00:26:25.200 around our industry
00:26:26.560 and our country
00:26:27.120 in general,
00:26:27.980 but my company,
00:26:29.400 one thing I'm proud of
00:26:30.740 is that what we do
00:26:31.340 is fully,
00:26:32.400 fully aligned with that.
00:26:33.800 I have an MOU
00:26:35.300 with the Wollanac
00:26:37.140 in Quebec.
00:26:38.460 We have a cooperation agreement
00:26:41.060 with the U-Tribe
00:26:42.060 in Utah
00:26:42.520 where we've got,
00:26:44.440 we're doing an agreement
00:26:47.100 here at Calgary
00:26:47.680 for a new project.
00:26:49.300 And of course,
00:26:50.480 the work that we've done
00:26:51.420 in Papua New Guinea
00:26:52.180 with indigenous people
00:26:53.180 I think is world,
00:26:54.680 is world leading, right?
00:26:59.100 So, you know,
00:27:00.260 we have walked our talk
00:27:01.720 on that
00:27:02.120 and I'm a real believer
00:27:03.640 that we need to partner
00:27:05.840 with our First Nations
00:27:07.300 for so many reasons.
00:27:10.400 One, practical,
00:27:12.320 they're on the land.
00:27:14.060 Two, just,
00:27:15.200 it's the right thing to do.
00:27:16.460 It's wrong that we have
00:27:17.340 four people in Canada
00:27:18.940 on Missouri.
00:27:20.040 We have,
00:27:20.340 we've done so little effect,
00:27:22.100 we've had a lot
00:27:22.680 to try to change it,
00:27:23.480 we've done very little
00:27:24.180 that's effective
00:27:24.760 in changing it.
00:27:25.380 To go back to Questair,
00:27:27.960 knowing what you know now
00:27:29.700 about the regulations
00:27:31.460 and the hurdles
00:27:32.300 and the bureaucracy
00:27:33.120 and the barriers,
00:27:35.060 would you have done it
00:27:36.360 if you were to go back
00:27:37.740 and had that chance
00:27:38.520 to do it again?
00:27:39.920 Yeah.
00:27:40.780 It's interesting,
00:27:41.260 I was at a friend's cabin
00:27:42.700 in Quebec at the lake
00:27:44.660 and I was explaining
00:27:46.080 what we were doing
00:27:46.800 with our gas field
00:27:47.760 and so on and so forth
00:27:48.600 and he says,
00:27:49.500 you know, Michael,
00:27:49.900 if you want to do
00:27:50.260 something new in Quebec,
00:27:51.060 you've got to start
00:27:51.620 when you're young.
00:27:52.620 And I said to him,
00:27:53.660 because it's going to
00:27:54.200 take a long time,
00:27:54.800 and I said,
00:27:55.860 you don't understand,
00:27:56.500 it did start
00:27:57.000 when I was young.
00:27:58.500 Yeah, so when I go back
00:27:59.700 and it's been
00:28:01.780 a fascinating experience.
00:28:03.340 I mean, you know,
00:28:04.060 I say to people,
00:28:04.880 if there hadn't been
00:28:05.700 a moratorium at Quebec,
00:28:06.720 I'd never learn French,
00:28:07.900 but I now speak
00:28:08.900 semi-flu in the French.
00:28:11.020 I would have never
00:28:11.900 really learned
00:28:12.680 about how Quebecers
00:28:14.360 look at the history
00:28:15.000 of Canada
00:28:15.420 and differ than Albert.
00:28:16.680 I would have never
00:28:17.420 really thought about
00:28:18.460 that the Alberta view
00:28:21.660 of Canada
00:28:22.120 is just our view
00:28:24.120 of Canada,
00:28:24.680 because I didn't realize
00:28:25.740 Quebecers think
00:28:26.380 completely differently.
00:28:27.460 For them,
00:28:27.860 the country started
00:28:28.460 in the 60-08.
00:28:29.600 For us,
00:28:29.980 it started in 1886
00:28:30.860 in the railroad.
00:28:31.800 For Ontario,
00:28:32.480 it started with the,
00:28:33.240 you know,
00:28:33.460 with the sort of 18,
00:28:34.320 with the 1840 rebellion.
00:28:36.860 Yeah.
00:28:37.380 And for others,
00:28:38.020 it starts in 1867.
00:28:40.380 Like,
00:28:40.800 what Canada is for people
00:28:42.120 is when it starts for you.
00:28:43.360 Mm-hmm.
00:28:43.620 And it's a mosaic.
00:28:45.700 People think differently.
00:28:46.780 So, none of these things,
00:28:48.360 I wouldn't have started
00:28:49.100 in political advocacy
00:28:50.380 to try to promote Canada
00:28:53.180 as a world-leading source
00:28:54.520 of environmentally friendly energy.
00:28:56.380 All of these things
00:28:57.260 came out of that.
00:28:59.360 If I was going to do
00:29:00.020 something different,
00:29:00.740 I think the mistake
00:29:01.720 that I,
00:29:02.360 if I was going to fix
00:29:02.960 one mistake in Quebec,
00:29:04.720 is when the environmental
00:29:05.740 opposition started,
00:29:07.700 I would have immediately said,
00:29:09.040 okay, stop.
00:29:09.620 Let's just put a hold on this.
00:29:10.960 But it's hard
00:29:12.260 when you're writing
00:29:12.640 a public company
00:29:13.340 to go to your shareholders
00:29:15.060 who are all excited
00:29:16.880 about the fact
00:29:17.400 that they're going to make
00:29:18.060 all this money
00:29:18.720 out of this massive discovery
00:29:20.120 you can make
00:29:20.720 and then say,
00:29:21.660 well, just wait.
00:29:23.480 But it's been an example
00:29:24.880 of the hurrier we went,
00:29:26.380 the behinder we got.
00:29:28.040 And it would have taken
00:29:29.660 a lot of courage
00:29:30.400 to tell our shareholders
00:29:31.100 we're putting a hold.
00:29:32.660 And I didn't have it
00:29:33.620 at the time.
00:29:34.460 And knowing what I know now,
00:29:35.400 I would have had that courage
00:29:36.400 that said, stop
00:29:37.160 and don't press this forward
00:29:39.640 with the population.
00:29:40.420 until they're ready.
00:29:41.920 And that's the tragedy
00:29:42.820 of all of this.
00:29:43.560 I mean, I know people
00:29:44.180 may want to vilify
00:29:45.120 oil and gas CEOs,
00:29:46.520 but a lot of these
00:29:47.080 are not the giant,
00:29:48.440 giant, giant corporate entities.
00:29:50.560 These are businesses
00:29:51.640 that are relatively small
00:29:53.280 in some senses.
00:29:54.580 And when you look at that,
00:29:56.280 I mean, the number of companies
00:29:57.680 that would not exist,
00:29:59.220 the number of people
00:29:59.820 that would not be employed,
00:30:00.740 the number of people
00:30:01.400 that could just pick up
00:30:02.220 and say,
00:30:02.620 I'm just going to focus on Utah.
00:30:04.320 I'm just going to go
00:30:04.740 to the United States.
00:30:05.440 I'm not even going to worry
00:30:06.180 about Canada
00:30:06.700 because it's too much
00:30:07.480 of a hassle.
00:30:08.180 That's a real tragedy
00:30:09.300 in what the government's
00:30:10.120 doing here.
00:30:11.460 Well, what's Canada's
00:30:12.800 strategic advantage?
00:30:13.580 Well, this is what I feel
00:30:14.300 practically,
00:30:14.860 from a national perspective,
00:30:16.340 as it was just my own company,
00:30:17.660 is that, you know,
00:30:18.720 we are a country
00:30:20.400 with massive resources,
00:30:22.840 very few people
00:30:23.700 that need them
00:30:24.440 to use them.
00:30:25.380 And we have the shortest
00:30:27.160 trade routes to Europe,
00:30:30.060 you know,
00:30:30.500 don't count Russia
00:30:31.780 for some obvious reasons,
00:30:32.700 you know,
00:30:33.000 and maybe let's just
00:30:33.600 leave Norway out.
00:30:34.520 They can't supply it itself
00:30:35.640 for now.
00:30:36.480 United States
00:30:37.240 and Northern Asia.
00:30:38.880 We're in the catbird seat.
00:30:40.940 Canada shouldn't be
00:30:41.860 talking now.
00:30:43.000 It's time.
00:30:44.480 You know,
00:30:44.760 people said the 20th century
00:30:45.960 belonged to Canada.
00:30:47.100 Well, it didn't really.
00:30:48.200 It belonged to our
00:30:48.760 senior partners
00:30:49.540 and we were the junior partner
00:30:50.900 punching above our weight
00:30:51.900 in World War II,
00:30:52.720 Korea,
00:30:53.240 and peacekeeping
00:30:54.840 and now maybe
00:30:56.900 on global environmental issues,
00:30:58.380 you know,
00:30:58.680 we're looking to try
00:30:59.180 to be world leaders there too.
00:31:00.340 But always as a junior partner.
00:31:03.300 But where we're at right now,
00:31:04.500 we could be the senior partner.
00:31:05.780 The American,
00:31:06.460 European,
00:31:06.960 and Northern Asian communities,
00:31:08.760 India,
00:31:09.060 we have decent trade routes
00:31:10.460 to India even.
00:31:11.820 They need what we have.
00:31:13.620 And if we were astute
00:31:15.180 about our strategic advantages
00:31:17.180 in the world,
00:31:17.800 we would step up
00:31:18.880 as the senior partner.
00:31:20.520 If you don't treat us well,
00:31:23.240 you won't get what you need
00:31:25.620 and we have what you need
00:31:26.980 and you should want it from us.
00:31:28.960 We're responsible.
00:31:31.100 You know,
00:31:31.640 like, you know,
00:31:32.140 with the,
00:31:32.460 with the speaker really just,
00:31:34.800 you know,
00:31:35.240 you don't need to send
00:31:35.980 the National Guard to Canada,
00:31:37.520 right?
00:31:38.180 So,
00:31:39.040 you can count on us
00:31:40.620 to be reliable,
00:31:41.460 but not only that,
00:31:42.800 socially responsible.
00:31:43.960 It's not just that
00:31:44.940 you can count on us
00:31:45.880 unlike Russia right now.
00:31:47.480 You can't even count on
00:31:48.240 to deliver on contracts
00:31:49.880 for,
00:31:51.320 so it's not just
00:31:52.540 that you can count on us
00:31:53.380 to deliver on a contract
00:31:54.520 and keep our,
00:31:55.400 our agreements.
00:31:56.700 You can count on us
00:31:57.440 that we use the profit
00:31:58.560 of that
00:31:59.680 not to fund terrorists.
00:32:01.340 We use it
00:32:02.180 to build hospitals,
00:32:03.120 to build a better society,
00:32:04.380 to,
00:32:04.580 to build a culture
00:32:06.500 that's aligned
00:32:07.160 with your values.
00:32:08.220 So,
00:32:08.760 why would you want
00:32:09.840 to deal with anybody else
00:32:10.740 and why aren't we
00:32:11.880 taking that
00:32:12.600 and making Canada
00:32:13.600 the senior,
00:32:14.840 respected partner
00:32:15.580 in the world
00:32:15.920 because everyone
00:32:16.320 knows we need Canada.
00:32:17.340 As a clarion call
00:32:19.160 to Canada
00:32:19.900 and its leaders,
00:32:20.840 people should listen to it.
00:32:22.040 Michael Binion,
00:32:22.800 always a pleasure.
00:32:23.480 Thank you.
00:32:23.940 Thank you,
00:32:24.200 have your hand.
00:32:25.160 That was my interview
00:32:26.360 with Michael Binion.
00:32:27.600 We'll have the next part
00:32:28.400 of the Unjust Transition
00:32:30.180 series tomorrow
00:32:31.480 here on
00:32:32.540 The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:32:33.740 But I do want to
00:32:34.780 just wrap things up here
00:32:35.860 because I have to get
00:32:36.760 to court.
00:32:37.600 We're pre-recording
00:32:38.160 the show this week
00:32:39.000 just so we can
00:32:39.820 keep everything fresh
00:32:40.800 and I'm not missing
00:32:41.380 anything that's going on
00:32:42.360 in the courtroom.
00:32:44.220 But I wanted to share
00:32:45.380 this interview
00:32:45.860 I was going to last week
00:32:47.160 and then everything
00:32:47.560 got kind of sidelined
00:32:48.660 when the federal court
00:32:49.720 decision came in
00:32:50.720 that found the
00:32:51.620 Emergencies Act
00:32:52.300 to be unconstitutional.
00:32:53.800 And it is a bit
00:32:55.060 of a holdover,
00:32:55.880 a leftover I should say,
00:32:57.020 from my time in Davos
00:32:58.860 covering the
00:32:59.720 World Economic Forum
00:33:01.300 annual meeting
00:33:02.260 which I believe
00:33:03.160 we are going to go back
00:33:04.240 and do the next one of.
00:33:05.220 So I've had some people
00:33:06.340 asking already.
00:33:07.200 I think we're still
00:33:07.640 trying to figure out
00:33:08.260 the accommodation situation
00:33:09.600 which as you know
00:33:10.300 is always the most annoying
00:33:12.300 part of that process.
00:33:13.260 But I think we can
00:33:13.920 make it work
00:33:14.360 without having to do
00:33:15.020 some like cross-country
00:33:16.080 commute every day
00:33:17.540 that will have us
00:33:18.600 in the cars
00:33:18.980 on the mountain roads.
00:33:19.740 But anyway,
00:33:20.160 I've complained
00:33:20.880 about the commute
00:33:21.380 too much already.
00:33:22.500 I wanted to go back
00:33:23.700 to the basics here.
00:33:25.100 Go back to first principles
00:33:26.080 and talk about the why
00:33:27.500 and why we started
00:33:29.060 covering the
00:33:29.840 World Economic Forum
00:33:30.900 in 2022,
00:33:31.980 why we went back
00:33:32.760 in 2023
00:33:33.380 and again this year
00:33:34.960 and are likely
00:33:36.040 doing so next year
00:33:37.660 as well.
00:33:38.580 And it's simply put
00:33:40.280 because no one else
00:33:41.820 is doing it well.
00:33:43.580 And I know there's
00:33:44.240 a bit of arrogance
00:33:44.800 inherent in that
00:33:45.700 to say,
00:33:46.180 oh well,
00:33:46.520 you know,
00:33:46.700 we're doing something
00:33:47.260 that no one else
00:33:47.840 in the world
00:33:48.260 is able to do.
00:33:49.520 I would say it's
00:33:50.680 that no one else
00:33:51.420 in the world
00:33:51.880 is willing to do.
00:33:53.480 There have been
00:33:53.900 considerably few players
00:33:55.600 that have decided
00:33:56.880 to go up
00:33:57.800 and, you know,
00:33:58.480 talk to the global elites
00:33:59.480 to put a microphone
00:34:00.220 in the face
00:34:00.780 of the Queen
00:34:01.680 of the Netherlands
00:34:02.220 or the CFO of Google
00:34:03.640 or Mark Carney
00:34:04.680 or whatever
00:34:05.440 and ask these questions
00:34:07.020 that matter to people
00:34:08.020 but often are never asked
00:34:09.620 because no one
00:34:10.160 who's ever in the room
00:34:10.920 with them wants to ask
00:34:12.560 because they want
00:34:13.160 to just keep getting
00:34:13.860 invited back into the room.
00:34:15.320 So there's something
00:34:15.820 rather blissful
00:34:16.800 in not being in the room
00:34:18.320 in the first place
00:34:19.000 because you don't have
00:34:20.080 anything to protect.
00:34:21.260 You have nothing to lose
00:34:22.180 except your integrity
00:34:23.480 which is only going
00:34:24.660 to be lost
00:34:25.160 if you don't go
00:34:26.180 and do the work
00:34:26.920 that people around the world
00:34:28.160 I think need you to do.
00:34:29.160 So that's a bit of a wind-up
00:34:30.760 to why we went there
00:34:32.080 and we have been joined
00:34:32.920 by some other
00:34:33.460 independent journalists.
00:34:34.400 There was a lovely
00:34:35.580 Japanese YouTuber
00:34:36.620 last year,
00:34:37.560 Masaka Ganaha
00:34:38.540 that I met
00:34:39.220 and actually appeared
00:34:40.140 on her show
00:34:41.440 talking about Davos
00:34:42.760 and also Rebel News
00:34:44.320 has sent I think
00:34:45.380 increasingly large crews
00:34:47.080 every year.
00:34:47.880 So I caught up
00:34:48.860 with Avi Amini
00:34:49.720 and Ezra Levant
00:34:50.440 on the streets of Davos
00:34:51.860 to talk about
00:34:52.400 why it is they're there as well.
00:34:54.380 Take a look.
00:34:55.380 Well as I've been saying
00:34:56.480 throughout all of my content
00:34:57.560 this week
00:34:57.940 you never know
00:34:58.440 who you are going
00:34:59.020 to run into
00:34:59.560 on the streets of Davos.
00:35:01.060 I've spent a great deal
00:35:02.140 of time chasing after
00:35:03.660 some of the big elites
00:35:05.480 people from all walks
00:35:06.360 of life here
00:35:06.900 including Steve Sedgwick
00:35:08.160 from CNBC
00:35:08.820 although he's been
00:35:09.460 friendly to us
00:35:10.320 riffraff out here
00:35:11.140 on the streets
00:35:12.560 but look at it
00:35:14.420 look at Rebel
00:35:14.960 chumming around
00:35:15.520 with the mainstream media
00:35:16.340 there.
00:35:16.760 Well two of the guys
00:35:17.800 that we've been
00:35:18.180 in some foot races
00:35:18.960 two of the guys
00:35:21.540 that we have been
00:35:22.180 in foot races with
00:35:23.280 chasing after
00:35:23.940 some of these figures
00:35:24.660 are right here
00:35:25.220 with me
00:35:25.720 Avi Amini
00:35:26.500 from Rebel News
00:35:27.200 and the Rebel
00:35:27.800 commander himself
00:35:28.740 Ezra Levant
00:35:30.060 this is I mean
00:35:30.880 Avi and I
00:35:31.400 you and I
00:35:31.860 were here in 2022
00:35:33.180 working for
00:35:33.980 different outlets
00:35:34.660 but we had kind of
00:35:35.300 a good camaraderie
00:35:37.340 going on here
00:35:38.220 what's your read
00:35:39.340 on kind of the
00:35:40.260 experience then
00:35:41.240 versus two years later
00:35:43.080 I reckon it's a lot
00:35:44.940 busier
00:35:45.340 I don't know if there's
00:35:46.340 more VIPs
00:35:47.380 but there's definitely
00:35:47.960 a lot more people
00:35:49.060 and you can see that
00:35:50.120 on the street
00:35:50.620 as well as in the
00:35:51.560 car parks for example
00:35:52.360 you just can't get parking
00:35:53.300 so that's the main
00:35:55.300 difference
00:35:55.760 the focus is
00:35:57.500 pretty similar
00:35:58.420 maybe not on the signs
00:35:59.820 you see the AI
00:36:00.460 is really dominating
00:36:02.540 the discussion
00:36:03.880 on I guess
00:36:04.640 the featuring
00:36:05.420 on all the signs
00:36:06.120 but the discussions
00:36:06.780 are still
00:36:07.260 climate change
00:36:08.780 and sustainability
00:36:10.300 is the buzzword
00:36:11.380 in town
00:36:11.980 which always feels
00:36:13.920 fun
00:36:14.500 because it's a second
00:36:15.480 word
00:36:16.000 it's a second sentence
00:36:16.960 it's a second word
00:36:17.920 in every second sentence
00:36:18.880 here when
00:36:20.200 they just don't get
00:36:20.840 the irony of it
00:36:21.600 do you think
00:36:22.400 Ezra that the influence
00:36:23.380 of the organization
00:36:24.240 has gotten greater
00:36:25.780 or lesser
00:36:27.060 in the last couple
00:36:27.920 of years
00:36:28.300 and do you feel
00:36:28.980 their security
00:36:30.660 the security
00:36:31.520 they feel about
00:36:32.220 their position
00:36:32.780 has changed
00:36:33.380 in that time
00:36:33.960 well I think
00:36:35.020 the best thing
00:36:35.580 that ever happened
00:36:36.260 to the folks
00:36:36.860 who come here
00:36:37.480 was COVID
00:36:38.500 it gave a huge boost
00:36:41.260 to international
00:36:42.620 companies
00:36:43.340 which are the bread
00:36:44.420 and butter here
00:36:44.780 there's no small
00:36:45.300 businesses here
00:36:45.920 this is transnational
00:36:47.060 corporations
00:36:47.580 this is Amazon
00:36:49.000 Jeffrey Bezos
00:36:50.160 personal wealth
00:36:51.080 doubled during
00:36:52.120 the lockdowns
00:36:52.700 because everyone
00:36:53.060 was at home
00:36:53.580 they had to
00:36:54.060 we interacted
00:36:55.680 with each other
00:36:56.800 through
00:36:57.540 tech
00:36:58.760 and there's a lot
00:36:59.900 of tech here
00:37:00.500 there's a lot
00:37:00.940 of pharma
00:37:01.520 here
00:37:02.140 now there's a lot
00:37:02.780 of AI
00:37:03.260 which worries me
00:37:04.320 because there's a lot
00:37:05.460 of censorship
00:37:06.120 here too
00:37:07.180 I mean
00:37:07.520 I can tell you
00:37:08.480 Twitter is not here
00:37:09.440 but Meha
00:37:10.200 and Google are
00:37:11.220 and so
00:37:12.720 I would say
00:37:13.620 that the WEF
00:37:14.920 has been strengthened
00:37:16.180 enormously
00:37:16.960 in real measurable
00:37:18.660 terms
00:37:19.020 financially
00:37:19.680 they had enormous
00:37:20.800 success in terms
00:37:21.860 of political power
00:37:22.840 I mean
00:37:23.500 there's royalty here
00:37:25.420 there's prime ministers
00:37:26.580 there's some presidents
00:37:27.300 here
00:37:27.660 this year
00:37:28.420 President Zelensky
00:37:30.420 of Ukraine
00:37:31.020 the Israeli president
00:37:32.480 the Argentine president
00:37:34.000 in terms of public
00:37:37.160 perception
00:37:38.240 yes
00:37:39.020 there's been more
00:37:39.760 criticism
00:37:40.540 of the World Economic
00:37:41.380 Forum too
00:37:41.940 but what do they care
00:37:43.520 Avi scrummed
00:37:44.820 and you were in that
00:37:45.500 same scrum
00:37:45.940 what am I saying
00:37:46.420 the two years
00:37:47.400 scrummed
00:37:48.400 Dr. Tedros Adhanom
00:37:50.460 the head of the World
00:37:51.840 Health Organization
00:37:52.700 really
00:37:53.360 the Globes
00:37:54.600 Anthony Fauci
00:37:55.800 and you guys
00:37:57.040 landed a few
00:37:57.600 punches on him
00:37:58.360 verbally
00:37:58.800 but what does he care
00:38:00.620 he can't be fired
00:38:01.940 he can't be voted out
00:38:03.600 to you
00:38:04.520 it was like
00:38:05.060 ants
00:38:05.520 at a picnic
00:38:06.180 I mean
00:38:06.440 he looked down
00:38:06.940 and you said
00:38:07.300 oh ants
00:38:07.840 I mean
00:38:08.720 what does he care
00:38:10.440 most of the people
00:38:11.740 here
00:38:12.040 are democratically
00:38:13.580 immune
00:38:14.360 they're a permanent
00:38:15.920 class of ruler
00:38:17.960 that's how it is
00:38:19.000 we are back
00:38:20.120 part of the fun
00:38:20.820 of Davos
00:38:21.280 so that you never
00:38:21.700 know who you're
00:38:22.220 going to run into
00:38:22.900 as I said at the top
00:38:23.840 and we took a moment
00:38:24.940 because we thought
00:38:26.700 well no we thought
00:38:27.640 you guys saw someone
00:38:28.460 that you wanted to do
00:38:29.060 a bit of a reprise on
00:38:30.420 so you had to scurry away
00:38:32.300 but we're back
00:38:32.880 we're standing as close
00:38:34.180 to original positions
00:38:35.060 as possible
00:38:35.620 but we're honest media
00:38:36.820 we wanted to acknowledge
00:38:37.700 the cut
00:38:38.140 and not fool you
00:38:38.820 by throwing some b-roll
00:38:39.680 over it
00:38:40.040 not that we've ever done that
00:38:40.940 so before we broke away
00:38:43.100 Avi I was going to ask you
00:38:43.960 about your sense here
00:38:45.540 because one thing
00:38:46.160 that I found
00:38:46.720 a little bit interesting
00:38:47.640 is that a lot of these folks
00:38:48.860 are not used to being
00:38:50.300 questioned here
00:38:51.100 but this year
00:38:51.960 they seem to be
00:38:52.500 a lot more sceptical
00:38:53.540 I'm seeing people
00:38:54.140 hiding their name tags
00:38:55.420 I'm seeing people
00:38:55.980 cross the street
00:38:56.940 I don't want to say
00:38:57.980 it's because of you
00:38:58.700 and I
00:38:59.000 I think we may be
00:38:59.680 contributing though
00:39:00.340 do you agree
00:39:00.760 I certainly am
00:39:01.980 yeah you are
00:39:03.880 and it's funny
00:39:04.480 because we have
00:39:04.820 different styles
00:39:05.440 which is fun
00:39:05.920 you're polite
00:39:06.940 I think if I wasn't here
00:39:08.360 you'd probably get away
00:39:09.220 with it
00:39:09.700 yeah because I
00:39:10.740 think Tedros
00:39:11.620 would have spoken to me
00:39:12.940 but then you go in there
00:39:14.600 and go for the jugular
00:39:15.920 right away
00:39:16.640 and he just shuts down
00:39:18.240 but that's part of it
00:39:19.180 and these people
00:39:20.060 are not used to
00:39:20.800 being surrounded
00:39:21.620 by critical media
00:39:23.420 are they
00:39:23.880 no
00:39:24.640 and you're right
00:39:25.800 like I think there is
00:39:26.800 you know
00:39:28.060 I've seen even other people
00:39:29.420 and it should be mentioned
00:39:30.820 there's a lot of people
00:39:31.320 that come in here
00:39:31.880 that come up on the side
00:39:32.940 and go
00:39:33.140 oh amazing work
00:39:34.300 we love what you're doing
00:39:34.960 good on you
00:39:35.460 you know
00:39:36.020 they're probably just
00:39:36.640 opportunistic
00:39:37.360 and using the event
00:39:39.780 as a networking
00:39:40.860 but you know
00:39:42.120 people have seen us
00:39:43.020 running up and down
00:39:44.020 scrumming
00:39:44.720 political figures
00:39:46.820 or business figures
00:39:47.700 or any of these
00:39:48.960 so I think the word
00:39:50.520 certainly got out there
00:39:51.320 and I think it also
00:39:51.760 got out there
00:39:52.220 in past years
00:39:52.840 wasn't it last year
00:39:53.740 when you actually
00:39:54.980 got accredited
00:39:55.560 it had suddenly
00:39:56.680 listed the second year
00:39:57.720 to actually hide
00:40:00.260 your identification
00:40:00.860 when you came out here
00:40:01.940 and I think that was
00:40:02.660 from our first year
00:40:03.680 of being here
00:40:04.540 you and I
00:40:05.020 yeah so Ezra
00:40:06.500 I'll ask you where you think
00:40:07.460 the future of this is
00:40:08.500 because there are a lot of people
00:40:09.740 that really I've not been able
00:40:11.900 to get to answer
00:40:12.680 the question that has really
00:40:13.760 been burning on my mind
00:40:14.820 which is
00:40:15.180 what do you get out of it
00:40:16.320 I want to hear some of the
00:40:17.100 business figures say
00:40:18.060 what is worth
00:40:19.440 hundreds of thousands
00:40:20.400 of dollars to be here
00:40:21.480 and I want to hear the
00:40:22.400 politicians say
00:40:23.200 what it is
00:40:23.660 now I have my own suspicions
00:40:24.880 but I've yet to get an answer
00:40:26.420 from that
00:40:26.960 I suspect whatever they've
00:40:28.380 gotten out of it in the past
00:40:29.320 they're still getting out of it
00:40:30.300 and in that sense
00:40:30.940 it'll probably continue
00:40:31.820 all of this won't it
00:40:32.680 you know
00:40:33.240 as you walk up and down the streets
00:40:34.540 you overhear
00:40:35.560 a snippet of a conversation
00:40:37.120 just a second or two
00:40:38.360 let me give you
00:40:39.700 two snippets that I heard today
00:40:41.620 hand to God
00:40:42.720 we made 400 million
00:40:45.960 off that
00:40:46.900 300 million dollar loan
00:40:50.140 like just little snippets
00:40:51.300 I don't know who they were
00:40:52.440 what they were talking about
00:40:53.320 that's what I overheard
00:40:55.080 and you probably heard
00:40:55.760 similar things
00:40:56.620 now some of the talk
00:40:58.720 is just puffery
00:40:59.720 and BS
00:41:00.360 and people trying to climb up
00:41:02.600 the greasy poll
00:41:03.420 but there is no denying
00:41:05.440 that the net worth
00:41:07.260 and the amount of assets
00:41:09.340 controlled by the people here
00:41:10.660 is in the tens of trillions
00:41:13.300 BlackRock itself controls
00:41:15.060 10 trillion
00:41:15.680 just one company
00:41:16.680 that's Larry Fink
00:41:17.340 and like I say
00:41:19.100 there's presidents
00:41:19.780 and there's royalty
00:41:20.620 so what do they get out of it
00:41:22.720 they have an elite gathering
00:41:25.100 much of it hidden
00:41:27.520 there's no transcript
00:41:29.060 there's no hand service
00:41:30.220 as we call it
00:41:30.860 there's no question period
00:41:32.300 there's no official opposition
00:41:33.560 the media is tightly controlled
00:41:36.580 what do they get out of it
00:41:37.600 it's a private playground
00:41:39.160 where they can frolic
00:41:40.160 and do their dirty deals
00:41:41.020 in Canada
00:41:41.600 Chrystia Freeland
00:41:42.740 came here
00:41:43.560 met with McKinsey
00:41:44.640 ta-da
00:41:45.120 they got a nine figure contract
00:41:46.720 from the Canadian government
00:41:47.800 that's what they do here
00:41:49.880 and so I think
00:41:51.660 they would like to ban
00:41:54.140 citizen journalists
00:41:55.200 now I don't know
00:41:56.120 if Switzerland will go along
00:41:57.040 with that
00:41:57.320 let me give you a quick anecdote
00:41:58.520 I scrummed someone
00:42:01.060 from the Rockefeller Foundation
00:42:02.400 which I think
00:42:03.360 is a very legitimate thing
00:42:04.360 she's a public person
00:42:05.660 who has been spending
00:42:06.860 tens of millions of dollars
00:42:07.800 in Canada
00:42:08.320 to disrupt our oil and gas economy
00:42:09.980 so she ducked into a pavilion
00:42:12.180 and a security guard
00:42:13.420 came out and said
00:42:13.820 you out
00:42:14.760 you go now move
00:42:16.240 well I know a little bit
00:42:17.560 about the law in Switzerland
00:42:18.400 not a lot
00:42:19.020 and I said no
00:42:20.140 I said you go get the cop
00:42:21.620 and he walked over to the cop
00:42:22.780 across the street
00:42:23.480 I could see them talking
00:42:24.660 talking talking talking
00:42:25.540 and nothing
00:42:27.840 just because some security guard
00:42:30.700 doesn't want me talking
00:42:31.580 to a VVIP
00:42:32.500 the Swiss police
00:42:33.700 couldn't give a damn
00:42:35.080 as long as
00:42:36.460 and I later walked over
00:42:38.020 to the cop and said
00:42:38.620 hey I just want to tell you
00:42:39.360 my intentions
00:42:39.920 he said as long as
00:42:41.080 you don't touch people
00:42:42.080 actually he said
00:42:43.720 slightly differently
00:42:44.540 but
00:42:45.200 I think that you might
00:42:49.100 see the World Economic Forum
00:42:50.500 try to
00:42:52.080 keep citizen journalists
00:42:54.720 out
00:42:54.900 I don't know how successful
00:42:55.740 they'll be
00:42:56.120 alright well
00:42:57.040 I think we're going to
00:42:57.700 continue covering it
00:42:58.600 because no one else is
00:42:59.560 and clearly the audience
00:43:00.540 loves it
00:43:01.140 I know that we are
00:43:02.160 from different outlets
00:43:03.080 but I think the more
00:43:03.780 independent journalists
00:43:04.440 doing this the better
00:43:05.200 so Avi Amini
00:43:06.240 Ezra Levant
00:43:06.820 thank you so much
00:43:07.600 and Ofiderson
00:43:08.240 that was Avi
00:43:10.620 and Ezra
00:43:11.420 on the streets
00:43:12.480 of Davos
00:43:13.320 well it was also me
00:43:14.080 on the streets of Davos
00:43:14.900 now I'm on the streets
00:43:15.640 of DC
00:43:16.020 so another
00:43:16.640 actually that's
00:43:18.560 there's a weird question
00:43:19.360 I wonder where the people
00:43:20.280 who you'd rather spend time with
00:43:22.160 the people of Davos
00:43:22.920 or the people of DC
00:43:23.680 I would say the people of DC
00:43:25.240 because DC
00:43:26.300 you can find
00:43:27.380 some normal
00:43:28.720 real people here
00:43:29.800 Davos
00:43:30.220 there are very few of those
00:43:31.540 I shouldn't say none
00:43:32.540 I mean the people
00:43:33.500 that work in Davos
00:43:34.780 are good
00:43:35.380 but they're not the ones
00:43:36.360 who live in Davos
00:43:37.060 and they would never
00:43:37.760 call themselves Davos people
00:43:39.240 like Christopher Eland
00:43:41.020 and Mark Carney
00:43:41.540 and all of them will
00:43:42.180 but anyway
00:43:42.680 that is it for today
00:43:44.460 we'll be back tomorrow
00:43:45.260 with more of
00:43:45.980 The Andrew Lawton Show
00:43:46.780 and another update
00:43:47.540 from the great
00:43:48.400 climate free speech trial
00:43:49.720 of the century
00:43:50.500 here on True North
00:43:51.780 thank you
00:43:52.320 God bless
00:43:52.880 and good day to you all
00:43:54.220 thanks for listening
00:43:55.480 to The Andrew Lawton Show
00:43:56.660 support the program
00:43:57.960 by donating to True North
00:43:59.220 at www.tnc.news