Juno News - UNRWA association with terrorists is nothing new

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.540 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.480 Hello and welcome to you all.

00:00:14.860 This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:18.440 The Andrew Lawton Show coming to you from Washington, D.C., where you will,

00:00:23.860 well, if you saw the show yesterday, you're aware of why I'm here.

00:00:26.620 And that is to, in part, report on the trial of Mark Stein,

00:00:31.560 the legendary Canadian commentator and author who is standing trial for allegations of defaming

00:00:38.100 a renowned climate scientist that has, well, we'll get to all that in a few moments.

00:00:43.620 I'll give the trial update shortly.

00:00:45.840 And it was actually a bit of a barn burner in court yesterday.

00:00:49.580 But I want to begin talking about this story, which is international,

00:00:53.460 but certainly has come to Canada's doorstep here.

00:00:56.740 Now, I'm going to try not to bog you down in the really lengthy, lengthy history on this,

00:01:03.260 but I'm probably going to have to dip in and out of that as we go on.

00:01:06.820 But at its core, it's about an organization called UNRWA,

00:01:10.420 which is a United Nations refugee agency specifically in Palestinian territories,

00:01:16.700 or for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

00:01:20.280 Now, UNRWA has been operating outside of the norm for United Nations refugee agencies,

00:01:26.220 because this is one that deals with a very specific region.

00:01:30.420 It's been situated there for many years and has always been fraught with challenges.

00:01:35.400 One of the big reasons is in Gaza, 0.99

00:01:38.640 there's no such thing as aid to Gazans that doesn't in some way have to get filtered through Hamas.

00:01:44.740 And this is one of the big problems, where a lot of humanitarian aid is, in fact, supporting Hamas,

00:01:50.620 because either intentionally or unintentionally, because Hamas is diverting resources and so on.

00:01:56.580 This is not new, and it shouldn't even be controversial to point this out.

00:02:01.060 Now, where we get into challenges with UNRWA is that UNRWA is staffed by locals. 1.00

00:02:06.380 I think it has about 30,000 employees.

00:02:08.120 Many of these locals are not just these, you know, happy-go-lucky aid workers who are there

00:02:13.440 because they want to believe that the Palestinian people deserve a little bit of foreign and international support.

00:02:19.760 No, they are supporters of the very problems and the people causing those problems in these regions.

00:02:27.980 Now, one of the most extreme examples of this is an allegation from Israel

00:02:32.520 that a dozen UNRWA staffers were involved or complicit in the October 7th attacks.

00:02:40.320 Now, according to the allegations from Israel, seven of these 12 literally were part of the invasion.

00:02:47.140 They literally crossed into Israel to participate in the attacks.

00:02:50.780 I think it was, I've seen conflicting evidence here.

00:02:53.220 I think two were participants in kidnappings.

00:02:57.340 One participated in a kidnap, another helped steal a soldier's body.

00:03:01.800 So these are pretty extreme accusations against staff from UNRWA

00:03:05.900 that, again, go well beyond what anyone would expect from an aid worker,

00:03:11.500 some humanitarian aid worker that is also participating in a massive terrorist attack

00:03:16.140 that killed about 1,300 people.

00:03:19.060 So all of this is to say we should be putting UNRWA under the microscope.

00:03:23.120 Now, none of this is new information if you go beyond October 7th.

00:03:27.360 There have been issues going back decades about UNRWA's ties to Hamas.

00:03:31.800 This is why Stephen Harper and the Conservatives in Canada were so critical of this

00:03:36.060 and decided to cut off the organization,

00:03:38.340 although Justin Trudeau decided to go all in on reinstating and bolstering it.

00:03:43.340 So we fast forward to today.

00:03:45.140 You had the international community making demands.

00:03:47.900 I should back that up.

00:03:49.020 Not the international community, but people internationally.

00:03:52.460 Making demands to cut funding off.

00:03:54.880 Now, it took Canada a few days, but eventually the federal government admitted it would be pausing funding to UNRWA.

00:04:02.140 Pausing.

00:04:03.220 Well, as we learned yesterday, that pause isn't actually a pause at all.

00:04:08.220 There is a report that I initially saw from journalist Helene Buzetti,

00:04:12.620 who writes in French but translated to English,

00:04:15.540 that Ottawa is not actually holding back any planned funds at all.

00:04:20.140 What's happening is Canada has provided an additional $60 million to the Palestinian people,

00:04:27.000 part of which went through UNRWA.

00:04:29.020 But this money has already been paid.

00:04:32.460 So saying we're pausing it isn't actually a pause at all,

00:04:36.380 because there was no new money committed.

00:04:38.740 The next payment isn't scheduled until March and April of this year.

00:04:44.100 And at that point, we don't know if the government is going to be pausing that or going through with it,

00:04:49.740 because they could say, well, we've done our investigation, and that's that.

00:04:53.000 So there is a question to the government about whether that payment will go through or not.

00:04:58.320 But even so, the federal government's stated intention here is to pause that funding.

00:05:04.760 So let's just drill down on the stated intention,

00:05:07.140 because the response to this from people on the left is that,

00:05:10.680 okay, UNRWA may have been helping terrorists,

00:05:14.120 but how dare you cut off their funding?

00:05:17.240 I'm not making this up.

00:05:18.380 Heidi Matthews, who is an assistant professor of law at Osgoode,

00:05:22.220 that's over at York University.

00:05:23.960 She's very well educated.

00:05:25.660 She has a Harvard degree.

00:05:27.800 She says,

00:05:28.160 And she links so that you can donate yourself

00:05:42.780 if you're interested in supporting, evidently, terrorism.

00:05:46.460 And then we also had Heather McPherson,

00:05:48.740 who's a Canadian member of Parliament.

00:05:50.540 She's with the New Democrats.

00:05:51.880 She gave this impassioned plea in the House of Commons about this.

00:05:56.000 The same day that the ICJ ruled that there is a risk of genocide in Gaza,

00:06:01.180 the Liberals paused funding to UNRWA,

00:06:03.520 which is a lifeline for millions of innocent Palestinians.

00:06:07.540 People will lose their lives.

00:06:09.860 And unbelievably, the Conservative leader has accused

00:06:14.280 30,000 UNRWA humanitarian workers of being terrorists.

00:06:18.060 He does not deserve to lead.

00:06:20.440 We support an investigation into the 12 former staff,

00:06:23.420 but defunding UNRWA is collective punishment,

00:06:26.680 and it is illegal.

00:06:27.960 When will the Liberals stop abandoning Palestinians?

00:06:31.500 Hear, hear, hear, hear.

00:06:33.480 I like how it's, by the way, this little afterthought,

00:06:36.420 that, oh yeah, yeah, no, of course we support an investigation,

00:06:38.820 but it's always the but you have to pay attention to.

00:06:41.900 And in the case of Heather McPherson,

00:06:44.100 we're talking about a woman here who has,

00:06:47.420 as her first reaction,

00:06:49.020 her first reaction to news that this agency was supporting terrorism

00:06:54.400 is to say, well, I'm going to make a personal donation as well.

00:06:58.520 Because like Heidi Matthews,

00:06:59.800 Heather McPherson is ponying up some personal money for that. 1.00

00:07:03.020 Now, I certainly hope she's not going to bill that to her office account.

00:07:06.000 I have no evidence one way or another.

00:07:07.660 If it is a personal donation, it should be a personal donation.

00:07:10.740 Now, there are, believe it or not, laws in this country

00:07:13.540 against funding terrorism and funding terror.

00:07:16.620 Now, I'm not going so far as to say that a dollar donated to UNRWA

00:07:20.000 is a dollar donated to terrorism,

00:07:22.080 but we should certainly look in the mirror

00:07:24.460 if we are motivated to donate to an organization

00:07:27.040 that has literally been accused for years,

00:07:31.300 not just for days,

00:07:32.500 for years of being complicit,

00:07:34.520 if not outright supportive

00:07:36.840 of a lot of terrorist actions in the region.

00:07:40.420 There was a moment back in, I think it was 2004,

00:07:43.340 where it was literally UNRWA vehicles that were being used as the getaway

00:07:47.400 after a bombing had taken place against Israelis.

00:07:51.300 So, this is not new,

00:07:53.120 but it is an extreme allegation that should be taken very seriously.

00:07:57.060 And it's rather despicable that you have so many

00:07:58.820 on the progressive left that say,

00:08:00.720 all right, well, I want to keep donating to that.

00:08:02.860 So, there are two options here

00:08:04.180 if you just want to distill it into crude terms. 0.97

00:08:06.260 Either A, you think Israelis are liars, 0.71

00:08:10.200 or B, you believe the allegation, 0.96

00:08:13.120 but don't really care about it.

00:08:14.900 Now, I suspect that some of them fit into either camp.

00:08:18.620 I mean, even Heather McPherson's comment there was basically,

00:08:21.620 well, yeah, we should investigate,

00:08:23.160 but, you know, we can't, you know, label them all with one brush.

00:08:26.200 He took aim at conservative leader Pierre Polyev's response to all this

00:08:29.700 because he was unflinching about this when he spoke about it.

00:08:33.360 Trudeau's been funding foreign terrorists and dictators,

00:08:36.840 calling it aid.

00:08:38.100 He gave money to UNRWA, right?

00:08:40.440 We warned.

00:08:41.480 We warned what would happen if you gave money to UNRWA.

00:08:44.320 We cut the funds for UNRWA when we were in government.

00:08:47.000 And what happened?

00:08:51.260 Justin Trudeau funded the same organization

00:08:55.080 whose members helped carry out the genocidal October 7th attack.

00:09:00.300 Justin Trudeau should be ashamed of himself.

00:09:03.780 I thought that was a very strong note.

00:09:06.320 And whether you like or dislike Pierre Polyev,

00:09:08.400 he's been incredibly unflinching when it comes,

00:09:11.460 to use that word again, when it comes to this issue,

00:09:14.320 as former Prime Minister Stephen Harper was as well.

00:09:18.320 Now, I know that a lot of you,

00:09:20.080 and this comes up on this show from time to time,

00:09:21.900 whenever I do talk about foreign policy,

00:09:23.660 a lot of you are minded to say that this has nothing to do with this.

00:09:26.160 Why do we even care?

00:09:27.200 Why do we have to pay attention?

00:09:29.060 Now, I'm sympathetic to that argument, by the way.

00:09:31.460 If you say, you know what,

00:09:32.300 I don't want to get involved in a foreign conflict.

00:09:34.920 But I think there are two things to say about that.

00:09:37.040 Number one, a foreign conflict does not apply to a situation

00:09:40.840 in which terrorists stormed into a sovereign country

00:09:44.880 and targeted civilians.

00:09:46.020 This is not a state versus state war.

00:09:48.340 This is something very different than that.

00:09:50.100 It's a terrorist attack,

00:09:51.100 and I wouldn't particularly like it

00:09:52.880 if other countries looked at 9-11 after September 11th, 2001,

00:09:57.200 and said, oh, that's just some foreign conflict.

00:09:59.320 It doesn't affect us.

00:10:00.040 If you're able to provide aid and support.

00:10:02.940 Secondly, when we're talking about funding UNRWA,

00:10:05.620 this is a Canadian problem 0.99

00:10:07.240 because it's the Canadian government

00:10:08.640 that has been in part fueling UNRWA

00:10:11.140 and funding this organization.

00:10:13.420 So it is very much a Canadian story

00:10:16.060 when you're talking about

00:10:17.100 the Canadian government's response to this.

00:10:19.860 And the Canadian government,

00:10:20.920 it took them some time,

00:10:22.420 but eventually they did the right thing it looked like.

00:10:25.200 But as we see when you look at the details,

00:10:27.820 they may not actually be at all.

00:10:29.480 So I would say very much keep the pressure up on that.

00:10:32.880 As I mentioned at the outset of the show,

00:10:34.740 and as we delved into a fair bit yesterday,

00:10:37.060 I am right now in Washington, D.C.

00:10:39.740 This is why I'm not doing the show from the regular digs,

00:10:42.740 but from a generic,

00:10:44.260 usually it's a generic nondescript hotel.

00:10:47.260 This one, I guess I'm in a funky little chair

00:10:49.280 that makes it a little less nondescript,

00:10:51.440 but I didn't choose the hotel.

00:10:52.760 Anyway, we are in Washington, D.C. this week

00:10:55.720 because Mark Stein,

00:10:57.620 who is a long friend of mine,

00:10:59.540 and I've worked with him on a number of projects,

00:11:01.380 including the upcoming Mark Stein Cruise,

00:11:03.640 which I know a few of you are going to be on,

00:11:05.660 and I'll be speaking on that.

00:11:07.880 But I've known him for many years,

00:11:09.400 so I'm not going to pretend

00:11:10.640 that I'm coming into this thinking,

00:11:12.560 oh, maybe he's in the right, maybe.

00:11:14.280 No, I think he is absolutely in the right.

00:11:17.200 And I wanted to bring you a little bit up to speed on this

00:11:19.980 because we danced around some of the key themes yesterday

00:11:22.660 when I was chatting with Phelan McAleer about this.

00:11:25.840 But this goes back 12 years.

00:11:27.560 Michael Mann is the creator of the hockey stick graph.

00:11:30.920 The graph that we showed yesterday

00:11:32.660 shows that, well, there's been like no global warming

00:11:34.760 for a thousand years,

00:11:35.740 and then once humans start doing things,

00:11:38.000 boom, it shoots up.

00:11:39.180 And one of the reasons this has been such a useful tool

00:11:43.320 is because it is a tool

00:11:45.680 that shows drastic human reasons to blame humanity,

00:11:51.240 effectively, for global warming.

00:11:52.760 This was the hockey stick graph

00:11:53.960 that Al Gore made famous in An Inconvenient Truth,

00:11:57.100 which was so inconvenient,

00:11:58.100 it might not have even been true.

00:12:00.020 And Michael Mann has become a climate celebrity

00:12:02.740 because of his work on this.

00:12:05.200 Now, what this means for Canadians,

00:12:07.520 it's the document, the graph,

00:12:09.600 that was used to justify Paul Martin

00:12:12.000 trying to get everyone into the Kyoto Accord.

00:12:14.100 It's been at the core of a lot of government's responses

00:12:17.160 to the climate discussion.

00:12:19.580 And there are significant challenges with it.

00:12:22.380 For starters, he presumes that he can come up

00:12:25.240 with global temperatures for any point in time,

00:12:28.880 even contemporary periods,

00:12:30.620 but also global temperatures going back hundreds of years.

00:12:34.440 And the methodology of this has been challenged

00:12:37.480 by eminent scientists who, by the way,

00:12:39.000 believe that global warming is a problem,

00:12:40.880 but don't believe in Michael Mann's version of it.

00:12:44.180 Now, Mark Stein, in true Mark Stein fashion,

00:12:46.360 called this graph fraudulent.

00:12:48.480 He looked at it.

00:12:49.340 He looked at the raw data.

00:12:50.500 He's not a scientist,

00:12:51.240 but he still deduced from what he was reading

00:12:53.960 that this was not a valid piece of science.

00:12:58.560 And he, as commentators, are allowed to do,

00:13:00.560 especially in a country with First Amendment protections,

00:13:03.020 as the United States has, wrote about this.

00:13:05.540 And he wrote that this was a fraud.

00:13:07.880 And he had been writing about this for years.

00:13:10.080 And when it really seemed to attract Michael Mann's ire

00:13:13.920 was when there was a pair of blog posts.

00:13:16.760 One was written by a gentleman named Rand Simberg.

00:13:19.360 The other was written by Mark Stein.

00:13:20.940 Back, again, 2012, we're talking about here.

00:13:24.660 And it was at the time that there had been

00:13:26.860 major controversy at Penn State

00:13:28.700 where Michael Mann worked involving Jerry Sandusky

00:13:31.880 and the school's cover-up of Jerry Sandusky,

00:13:34.840 the athletic director's sexual assault.

00:13:37.300 Now, I mean, without getting even more into the weeds

00:13:39.380 than I already have,

00:13:40.460 Penn State had investigated Mann,

00:13:43.080 not for anything to do with anything remotely

00:13:45.420 to do with what Sandusky did,

00:13:47.460 but for his academic research and process.

00:13:51.080 And the reality was there was an accusation

00:13:54.520 that Penn State was committed

00:13:55.820 to covering up both situations.

00:13:57.660 And that was really what Rand Simberg

00:14:00.100 and Mark Stein were talking about.

00:14:01.660 But of course, in Mann's view, he's like,

00:14:03.520 oh, you've called me a child molester.

00:14:05.380 And I mean, look, there was one great line

00:14:07.100 from Mark's column that, and by great,

00:14:09.580 I just mean notable line from it,

00:14:11.160 where he says that he tortured and molested data

00:14:15.000 instead of children.

00:14:16.620 Now, this is a bit of a perhaps controversial

00:14:19.640 or edgy thing to say,

00:14:21.260 but it was clear that he was talking

00:14:23.360 about two very different things,

00:14:25.780 what Sandusky did and what Mann did.

00:14:28.000 And he was linking it by talking about Penn State

00:14:30.800 and some very legitimate issues with that school.

00:14:33.900 Now, a lot of people would listen to that.

00:14:35.980 I mean, this is a jury trial.

00:14:37.200 It's possible the jury is listening to that

00:14:39.080 and thinking, okay, like, yeah,

00:14:40.260 maybe I agree or disagree.

00:14:42.120 Why has this been 12 years of litigation

00:14:44.560 to get to the point where we're sitting

00:14:46.020 in a courtroom talking about it?

00:14:47.840 And I think that's a very valid question.

00:14:49.940 But it's also a free speech issue.

00:14:52.120 It's a climate change issue.

00:14:53.400 It's an academic freedom issue.

00:14:54.860 It's all of these things.

00:14:55.980 Do you have a right to criticize

00:14:57.820 and diverge very starkly

00:15:00.420 from someone with letters after their name

00:15:03.320 who's been fetted by governments

00:15:04.780 who parties with Leo DiCaprio?

00:15:06.340 Do you have a right to criticize them?

00:15:09.160 And if so, what are the limits of that?

00:15:10.880 So that's been why I've been interested in this case

00:15:13.880 and also my knowledge of the case

00:15:16.200 because I've known Mark for so long

00:15:17.920 and I've followed this work

00:15:19.400 and I've read this and I've read his book on it

00:15:22.180 and I haven't read Mann's book in full.

00:15:24.220 I've read parts of it.

00:15:25.340 But one of the things I wanted to bring up

00:15:27.440 that came up yesterday in trial,

00:15:30.020 which was quite interesting,

00:15:31.100 was how little Michael Mann has suffered.

00:15:34.180 And this is, I think, the fascinating part of it

00:15:36.540 because to prove that you have been defamed in court,

00:15:39.920 you don't just need to say,

00:15:41.100 this person said something mean about me

00:15:43.000 or said something defamatory about me.

00:15:44.680 You have to prove that the blow landed

00:15:47.400 to put a colloquial spin on it.

00:15:50.260 You have to prove that you suffered damages.

00:15:52.940 Now, look, there is a whole legal test

00:15:55.380 and I'm not an American lawyer,

00:15:56.780 I'm not a Canadian lawyer either for that matter,

00:15:58.600 but there's a whole legal test.

00:16:00.140 But one of the most important things

00:16:01.540 is you have to prove that you were harmed.

00:16:04.140 And there was a quite stunning display in court yesterday

00:16:08.600 where one of the lawyers who was representing Ran Simberg,

00:16:12.520 not Mark, Mark's actually self-representing.

00:16:15.220 So one of Ran Simberg's lawyers went up and pointed,

00:16:17.720 and actually Mark did this as well

00:16:19.060 when he was cross-examining Michael Mann,

00:16:21.280 and he pointed out how pretty much every single metric

00:16:25.620 financially has gone up in his life.

00:16:30.060 His salary is higher, his awards are greater,

00:16:34.100 the number of book royalties he's cashing in are higher,

00:16:38.000 the number of parties he's going to

00:16:40.020 where he's meeting with celebrities

00:16:41.520 and heads of state and heads of government is higher.

00:16:43.960 He was at Penn State, which is a decent school,

00:16:46.420 but it's a state university in Pennsylvania

00:16:48.320 at the beginning of this controversy.

00:16:50.240 Now he's at the University of Pennsylvania,

00:16:52.520 which is in the Ivy League.

00:16:54.400 So for a guy who claims he was irreparably defamed,

00:16:58.580 every part of his life seems to be in better standing

00:17:02.180 than it was at the outset of this.

00:17:04.280 The only damages, the only damages

00:17:06.560 he's been able to possibly point to

00:17:08.520 are what he says amount to lost grants.

00:17:12.200 Now grants wouldn't have gone to him.

00:17:13.960 They would have gone to his university.

00:17:15.700 But even so, he can't even say this was the reason.

00:17:18.240 He can't say, and I lost this grant funding

00:17:20.720 because of what they said.

00:17:23.860 This is a guy who has picked a lot of fights

00:17:25.980 with a lot of people over the years.

00:17:27.400 So even if these grant losses were connected

00:17:31.400 to defamation he had endured, which is dubious at best,

00:17:36.800 there's no guarantee it came down

00:17:38.240 to the specific defamation at issue

00:17:40.300 from Mark Stein and Rand Simberg.

00:17:42.360 And look, for a case that's been going on a dozen years,

00:17:45.660 and I'm coming in at week three of this trial,

00:17:47.820 this has been going on for two weeks,

00:17:49.160 I kind of would have assumed that there had been

00:17:51.660 a more compelling case to be made

00:17:54.540 about where the defamation was.

00:17:56.700 Now, again, the jury is the one who's going to decide this.

00:18:00.520 To me, that seems risky to have a defamation trial

00:18:03.420 decided by a jury

00:18:04.980 because they're not necessarily minded

00:18:06.840 to adhere to the law.

00:18:08.320 They might just come down to who they like better

00:18:10.240 at the end.

00:18:10.620 I don't know.

00:18:11.440 I think it will depend on how specific

00:18:13.120 and how clear those jury instructions are.

00:18:16.100 But my goodness, it was baffling to me

00:18:18.000 that after so many years

00:18:19.480 and such an expensive claim of defamation,

00:18:23.760 I mean, it's expensive for all involved.

00:18:25.520 The lawyers are making big money on this.

00:18:27.100 Now, Michael Mann testified that he has not had to spend

00:18:29.800 any of his own personal money.

00:18:31.480 So that's an interesting question

00:18:33.360 about who is funding his legal representation.

00:18:36.300 But after all that,

00:18:37.260 he still can't point to anything that he lost,

00:18:41.240 which is very, very important.

00:18:43.120 Now, in keeping with the climate theme,

00:18:45.780 at least peripherally today,

00:18:47.300 I wanted to take this opportunity

00:18:48.840 to launch a new series

00:18:50.860 we are going to be doing

00:18:51.860 on The Andrew Lawton Show

00:18:52.800 over the next couple of weeks.

00:18:53.880 Now, we were going to be doing this anyway.

00:18:55.740 It is a series that takes aim

00:18:57.680 at the so-called Just Transition,

00:19:00.980 which is a global initiative.

00:19:02.900 It comes from the United Nations

00:19:04.580 and the Paris Accord,

00:19:05.640 but it's one that has very much been embraced

00:19:07.920 by the Canadian government with gusto.

00:19:11.060 And it is an initiative

00:19:12.760 that presupposes we need to transition away

00:19:16.180 from the oil and gas sector.

00:19:18.160 Now, they try to put it in nice terms

00:19:19.640 and say, well, it's a just transition

00:19:21.460 because we want it to be just

00:19:23.160 for the people who work in that sector.

00:19:25.300 But all of the people who work in that sector

00:19:27.540 that I've spoken to

00:19:28.420 have a very different perspective

00:19:30.540 on what that means.

00:19:32.200 So I wanted to actually take

00:19:33.720 the next couple of weeks,

00:19:34.880 and we've partnered with our friends

00:19:36.400 at the Modern Miracle Network

00:19:37.420 to make this happen,

00:19:38.760 to share interviews I have done

00:19:40.560 with leaders in the oil and gas sector

00:19:43.280 to talk about what they're doing,

00:19:45.020 to talk about why the Just Transition

00:19:47.300 is in fact an unjust transition,

00:19:49.900 and to talk about the side

00:19:51.540 of the oil and gas sector in this country

00:19:53.020 we never actually get to hear from,

00:19:54.840 which is the positive side.

00:19:57.060 Yeah, it's not the side the media

00:19:58.240 and the government want to talk about.

00:20:00.500 So this is the first part.

00:20:02.100 It's a bit of a primer

00:20:02.860 for the Unjust Transition series.

00:20:05.020 My interview with Michael Binion,

00:20:06.660 who is the head of the Modern Miracle Network,

00:20:09.040 but also the head of Questair Energy.

00:20:11.860 I'm sitting down with Michael Binion.

00:20:14.460 Now, you wear a number of different hats.

00:20:16.840 Normally, I speak to you in your capacity

00:20:18.580 as Executive Director

00:20:19.560 of the Modern Miracle Network,

00:20:20.980 but we do things a little bit differently today,

00:20:23.120 I thought.

00:20:23.480 You're also the CEO of Questair,

00:20:25.440 which is one of Canada's many successful companies

00:20:28.020 in the energy sector.

00:20:29.880 Whatever hat you're wearing,

00:20:30.880 it's always good to talk to you.

00:20:32.100 Well, thank you.

00:20:32.600 And I think you need to see me

00:20:33.620 in the cutaway app.

00:20:34.340 Yes, yeah, all sorts of get-ups,

00:20:36.140 I believe.

00:20:36.920 Well, let's talk.

00:20:38.260 We've been discussing the Just Transition

00:20:39.900 with you and some of your colleagues

00:20:41.520 while we've been here,

00:20:42.580 but let me just first ask

00:20:44.300 what your company is doing

00:20:46.100 in this space that's a bit unique right now.

00:20:48.780 Yeah, well, I appreciate the compliment

00:20:50.960 that we're one of Canada's

00:20:52.060 many successful energy companies,

00:20:54.080 but we're far less successful

00:20:55.700 than we believe we deserve to.

00:20:58.000 We started our company

00:20:59.220 as a high-risk exploration company

00:21:01.980 looking for giant gas fields.

00:21:05.540 And unexpectedly,

00:21:06.780 although, of course,

00:21:07.840 it's like I say to my friends

00:21:09.240 when I sink a 60-foot putt,

00:21:10.600 they tell me I'm lucky.

00:21:11.360 I say, well, I was aiming at it.

00:21:12.880 So we were aiming

00:21:13.940 and finding a giant field,

00:21:14.940 but we did.

00:21:15.840 It's the only giant shale field

00:21:18.640 that one company found

00:21:20.360 and also captured,

00:21:21.460 and it's the Utica Shale in Quebec.

00:21:23.620 And so it's a multi-billion dollars,

00:21:27.120 25 TCF of gas.

00:21:28.800 It would be like Churchill Falls

00:21:30.040 for 70 years.

00:21:31.200 That's how big it is.

00:21:32.240 And we've been stymied

00:21:34.060 from developing it

00:21:35.060 due to Quebec politics.

00:21:38.000 It's been an effective ban

00:21:39.380 for 13 years.

00:21:40.980 I say I always thought

00:21:41.640 the hard part was spying

00:21:42.440 and I've now realized

00:21:43.100 producing it's even harder.

00:21:44.600 So we'll talk about

00:21:45.580 those issues in a moment,

00:21:46.660 but I mean,

00:21:46.960 one of the recurring themes

00:21:47.900 that comes up here

00:21:48.660 is that the demand exists.

00:21:49.980 The demand doesn't go away.

00:21:51.140 All of the problems

00:21:52.040 that are the barriers

00:21:53.340 that are put up by the activists

00:21:54.720 are trying to limit supply,

00:21:56.440 but the demand is growing

00:21:58.460 and certainly is maintaining.

00:22:00.380 So when you're prevented

00:22:02.260 from unlocking these resources,

00:22:04.400 as you say,

00:22:05.120 all it means is that

00:22:05.880 some other supplier

00:22:06.820 that is not as diligent

00:22:08.460 at following these regulations

00:22:09.980 and complying with the laws

00:22:11.500 and the spirit of the law,

00:22:12.860 they're the beneficiaries of it.

00:22:14.940 Yeah, that's certainly,

00:22:15.980 I think,

00:22:16.800 an important argument

00:22:17.560 that we've made just like,

00:22:19.340 when it's so true

00:22:20.500 of our leap

00:22:21.340 and our discovery in Quebec.

00:22:24.260 And this was a flummoxing thing

00:22:27.320 to find,

00:22:28.020 and I'm not sure

00:22:28.880 people really realize it,

00:22:30.200 but I've had people,

00:22:32.860 I've had dinner

00:22:33.840 with Stephen Gilbo.

00:22:34.940 I've had Patrick Bonin,

00:22:37.300 the head of Greenpeace

00:22:38.460 in Quebec,

00:22:39.540 World Wildlife Fund,

00:22:41.080 Suzuki.

00:22:41.880 I've had them all tell me,

00:22:44.180 as I said,

00:22:44.940 that if we were

00:22:46.140 to produce local gas,

00:22:48.120 it would be a material reduction

00:22:50.280 in Canadian emissions.

00:22:52.080 And in the end,

00:22:52.720 they said,

00:22:52.960 we don't care

00:22:53.560 because we want Quebec

00:22:55.460 to meet its targets.

00:22:56.980 And your project

00:22:58.120 is going to increase

00:22:59.060 Quebec emissions,

00:23:00.220 even as it reduces

00:23:01.280 Canadian emissions.

00:23:03.100 So this is something

00:23:04.680 that I learned in 2011, 2012,

00:23:08.020 years before

00:23:09.080 the cancellation of Gateway.

00:23:10.500 This is why we've been,

00:23:11.440 I think,

00:23:11.620 at the leading edge

00:23:12.240 of these discussions,

00:23:13.360 corporately and politically,

00:23:15.640 is because of realizing early

00:23:19.540 that it's all about

00:23:21.900 meeting targets

00:23:23.500 and, I guess,

00:23:25.320 to some extent,

00:23:25.860 virtue signaling

00:23:26.540 rather than making

00:23:27.340 a real difference.

00:23:28.680 That argument for us

00:23:29.680 in Quebec,

00:23:30.300 if we produce local gas,

00:23:31.700 we emit,

00:23:32.560 like, a really large

00:23:33.620 reduction in Canadian emissions.

00:23:35.020 It's true for the world, too.

00:23:36.640 If Canada produces more,

00:23:39.140 the world emissions go down

00:23:40.600 because we're more

00:23:41.540 environmentally efficient.

00:23:43.400 You emphasized the word stated

00:23:46.080 when you said

00:23:46.840 the stated objectives.

00:23:48.340 What did you mean by that?

00:23:49.500 Well, in part this,

00:23:50.860 the stated objective

00:23:51.840 is to reduce global emissions.

00:23:55.400 And yet,

00:23:56.480 they're against projects

00:23:57.560 that would do that.

00:23:59.180 Because at the end of the day,

00:24:00.740 they want to be able to say,

00:24:01.860 I met a local target.

00:24:03.560 And they don't.

00:24:04.080 And seemingly,

00:24:06.080 it's not a priority.

00:24:08.000 I don't want to say

00:24:08.700 they don't care,

00:24:09.500 but it doesn't seem

00:24:10.480 to be a priority.

00:24:12.160 But the globe's emissions

00:24:13.540 would go down

00:24:14.320 if Canada would just

00:24:15.460 produce more aluminum

00:24:16.400 or more gas

00:24:18.060 or more LNG.

00:24:19.140 The global emissions

00:24:20.320 would go down,

00:24:21.360 even though Canada's

00:24:22.220 might go up a bit.

00:24:24.320 But is it a global problem?

00:24:25.820 Are we supposed to be

00:24:26.960 acting locally

00:24:28.100 and thinking globally?

00:24:29.460 But I don't,

00:24:30.320 when I say stated,

00:24:31.180 that's because

00:24:31.660 I'm not so sure

00:24:32.940 that they really want

00:24:34.640 to think globally

00:24:35.560 in their local atmosphere.

00:24:37.080 The government has said

00:24:38.360 that the just transition,

00:24:39.760 I mean,

00:24:40.460 they presented it basically

00:24:41.460 as a fait accompli,

00:24:42.600 as though they're already

00:24:43.580 going to do this.

00:24:44.240 It's just a matter

00:24:44.760 of mitigating the harms

00:24:46.140 and effects on jobs

00:24:47.860 to people that are currently

00:24:48.740 working in this space.

00:24:50.020 Have you seen anything

00:24:51.180 from their proposals

00:24:53.100 that have been put forward

00:24:54.240 so far

00:24:54.740 that suggests

00:24:55.280 there will be

00:24:55.800 a soft landing

00:24:56.960 for the scores

00:24:57.840 of Canadians

00:24:58.420 that will be out of work

00:24:59.280 if this dream

00:25:00.420 comes to fruition?

00:25:01.780 Yeah.

00:25:02.140 I mean,

00:25:02.440 I just can't imagine.

00:25:03.380 I mean,

00:25:03.880 I'm chairman

00:25:04.920 of a Greek services company

00:25:07.040 and we're over

00:25:08.160 in Papua New Guinea.

00:25:08.880 I mean,

00:25:09.180 we're giving amazing jobs

00:25:11.200 to people.

00:25:11.840 We literally take people 0.76

00:25:13.200 out of grass huts

00:25:13.820 in the jungle

00:25:14.380 and it's hard to imagine.

00:25:15.600 It's true.

00:25:16.140 We're in the highlands

00:25:17.120 of Papua New Guinea.

00:25:18.240 We bring people

00:25:19.000 out of the jungle.

00:25:19.660 We teach them

00:25:20.160 how to drive a truck,

00:25:21.300 how to run a crane.

00:25:22.720 Ultimately,

00:25:23.260 over 15 years,

00:25:24.660 we've brought them

00:25:25.320 up to the point

00:25:25.900 where they're the driller,

00:25:27.540 which is the work

00:25:28.240 for the supervising manager

00:25:29.640 of the entire

00:25:30.300 break operation.

00:25:31.560 These are $500 million

00:25:32.940 operations

00:25:33.700 and we've got

00:25:34.820 local indigenous

00:25:35.860 Papua New Guinea people

00:25:36.860 running these things.

00:25:38.080 These are incredible jobs.

00:25:40.300 I just can't even imagine

00:25:41.540 telling those people

00:25:42.820 in Papua New Guinea

00:25:43.500 that now got themselves

00:25:44.600 out of grass hut

00:25:45.340 in the jungle

00:25:46.340 or a Canadian here,

00:25:48.360 go from your $150,000

00:25:49.860 to $250,000 job

00:25:51.440 running a rig

00:25:52.020 and go sweep snow

00:25:53.680 off supermails.

00:25:54.500 It just doesn't make sense.

00:25:55.880 I mean,

00:25:56.400 to talk about

00:25:57.080 the Canadian context

00:25:58.120 here for a moment

00:25:58.880 with indigenous concerns

00:26:01.580 and that there are

00:26:02.200 some legitimate

00:26:02.680 indigenous communities

00:26:03.580 that have concerns

00:26:04.720 about this,

00:26:05.140 but I find oftentimes

00:26:06.060 indigenous issues

00:26:07.680 are elevated by activists

00:26:09.040 that would be opposed

00:26:09.720 to the projects in general

00:26:10.900 and I think that's,

00:26:11.760 I'd say,

00:26:12.540 true of Quebec.

00:26:13.600 You've done a lot

00:26:14.880 to forge relationships

00:26:16.100 with indigenous communities

00:26:17.140 that really want

00:26:17.760 these projects,

00:26:18.480 really want this development.

00:26:19.940 Yeah.

00:26:20.400 In our corporate,

00:26:21.780 you know,

00:26:22.020 I do this a lot

00:26:23.120 in sort of advocacy

00:26:24.260 and discussions

00:26:25.200 around our industry

00:26:26.560 and our country

00:26:27.120 in general,

00:26:27.980 but my company,

00:26:29.400 one thing I'm proud of

00:26:30.740 is that what we do

00:26:31.340 is fully,

00:26:32.400 fully aligned with that.

00:26:33.800 I have an MOU

00:26:35.300 with the Wollanac

00:26:37.140 in Quebec.

00:26:38.460 We have a cooperation agreement

00:26:41.060 with the U-Tribe

00:26:42.060 in Utah

00:26:42.520 where we've got,

00:26:44.440 we're doing an agreement

00:26:47.100 here at Calgary

00:26:47.680 for a new project.

00:26:49.300 And of course,

00:26:50.480 the work that we've done

00:26:51.420 in Papua New Guinea

00:26:52.180 with indigenous people

00:26:53.180 I think is world,

00:26:54.680 is world leading, right?

00:26:59.100 So, you know,

00:27:00.260 we have walked our talk

00:27:01.720 on that

00:27:02.120 and I'm a real believer

00:27:03.640 that we need to partner

00:27:05.840 with our First Nations

00:27:07.300 for so many reasons.

00:27:10.400 One, practical,

00:27:12.320 they're on the land.

00:27:14.060 Two, just,

00:27:15.200 it's the right thing to do.

00:27:16.460 It's wrong that we have

00:27:17.340 four people in Canada

00:27:18.940 on Missouri.

00:27:20.040 We have,

00:27:20.340 we've done so little effect,

00:27:22.100 we've had a lot

00:27:22.680 to try to change it,

00:27:23.480 we've done very little

00:27:24.180 that's effective

00:27:24.760 in changing it.

00:27:25.380 To go back to Questair,

00:27:27.960 knowing what you know now

00:27:29.700 about the regulations

00:27:31.460 and the hurdles

00:27:32.300 and the bureaucracy

00:27:33.120 and the barriers,

00:27:35.060 would you have done it

00:27:36.360 if you were to go back

00:27:37.740 and had that chance

00:27:38.520 to do it again?

00:27:39.920 Yeah.

00:27:40.780 It's interesting,

00:27:41.260 I was at a friend's cabin

00:27:42.700 in Quebec at the lake

00:27:44.660 and I was explaining

00:27:46.080 what we were doing

00:27:46.800 with our gas field

00:27:47.760 and so on and so forth

00:27:48.600 and he says,

00:27:49.500 you know, Michael,

00:27:49.900 if you want to do

00:27:50.260 something new in Quebec,

00:27:51.060 you've got to start

00:27:51.620 when you're young.

00:27:52.620 And I said to him,

00:27:53.660 because it's going to

00:27:54.200 take a long time,

00:27:54.800 and I said,

00:27:55.860 you don't understand,

00:27:56.500 it did start

00:27:57.000 when I was young.

00:27:58.500 Yeah, so when I go back

00:27:59.700 and it's been

00:28:01.780 a fascinating experience.

00:28:03.340 I mean, you know,

00:28:04.060 I say to people,

00:28:04.880 if there hadn't been

00:28:05.700 a moratorium at Quebec,

00:28:06.720 I'd never learn French,

00:28:07.900 but I now speak

00:28:08.900 semi-flu in the French.

00:28:11.020 I would have never

00:28:11.900 really learned

00:28:12.680 about how Quebecers

00:28:14.360 look at the history

00:28:15.000 of Canada

00:28:15.420 and differ than Albert.

00:28:16.680 I would have never

00:28:17.420 really thought about

00:28:18.460 that the Alberta view

00:28:21.660 of Canada

00:28:22.120 is just our view

00:28:24.120 of Canada,

00:28:24.680 because I didn't realize

00:28:25.740 Quebecers think 0.78

00:28:26.380 completely differently.

00:28:27.460 For them,

00:28:27.860 the country started

00:28:28.460 in the 60-08.

00:28:29.600 For us,

00:28:29.980 it started in 1886

00:28:30.860 in the railroad.

00:28:31.800 For Ontario,

00:28:32.480 it started with the,

00:28:33.240 you know,

00:28:33.460 with the sort of 18,

00:28:34.320 with the 1840 rebellion.

00:28:36.860 Yeah.

00:28:37.380 And for others,

00:28:38.020 it starts in 1867.

00:28:40.380 Like,

00:28:40.800 what Canada is for people

00:28:42.120 is when it starts for you.

00:28:43.360 Mm-hmm.

00:28:43.620 And it's a mosaic.

00:28:45.700 People think differently.

00:28:46.780 So, none of these things,

00:28:48.360 I wouldn't have started

00:28:49.100 in political advocacy

00:28:50.380 to try to promote Canada

00:28:53.180 as a world-leading source

00:28:54.520 of environmentally friendly energy.

00:28:56.380 All of these things

00:28:57.260 came out of that.

00:28:59.360 If I was going to do

00:29:00.020 something different,

00:29:00.740 I think the mistake

00:29:01.720 that I,

00:29:02.360 if I was going to fix

00:29:02.960 one mistake in Quebec,

00:29:04.720 is when the environmental

00:29:05.740 opposition started,

00:29:07.700 I would have immediately said,

00:29:09.040 okay, stop.

00:29:09.620 Let's just put a hold on this.

00:29:10.960 But it's hard

00:29:12.260 when you're writing

00:29:12.640 a public company

00:29:13.340 to go to your shareholders

00:29:15.060 who are all excited

00:29:16.880 about the fact

00:29:17.400 that they're going to make

00:29:18.060 all this money

00:29:18.720 out of this massive discovery

00:29:20.120 you can make

00:29:20.720 and then say,

00:29:21.660 well, just wait.

00:29:23.480 But it's been an example

00:29:24.880 of the hurrier we went,

00:29:26.380 the behinder we got.

00:29:28.040 And it would have taken

00:29:29.660 a lot of courage

00:29:30.400 to tell our shareholders

00:29:31.100 we're putting a hold.

00:29:32.660 And I didn't have it

00:29:33.620 at the time.

00:29:34.460 And knowing what I know now,

00:29:35.400 I would have had that courage

00:29:36.400 that said, stop

00:29:37.160 and don't press this forward

00:29:39.640 with the population.

00:29:40.420 until they're ready.

00:29:41.920 And that's the tragedy

00:29:42.820 of all of this.

00:29:43.560 I mean, I know people

00:29:44.180 may want to vilify

00:29:45.120 oil and gas CEOs,

00:29:46.520 but a lot of these

00:29:47.080 are not the giant,

00:29:48.440 giant, giant corporate entities.

00:29:50.560 These are businesses

00:29:51.640 that are relatively small

00:29:53.280 in some senses.

00:29:54.580 And when you look at that,

00:29:56.280 I mean, the number of companies

00:29:57.680 that would not exist,

00:29:59.220 the number of people

00:29:59.820 that would not be employed,

00:30:00.740 the number of people

00:30:01.400 that could just pick up

00:30:02.220 and say,

00:30:02.620 I'm just going to focus on Utah.

00:30:04.320 I'm just going to go

00:30:04.740 to the United States.

00:30:05.440 I'm not even going to worry

00:30:06.180 about Canada

00:30:06.700 because it's too much

00:30:07.480 of a hassle.

00:30:08.180 That's a real tragedy

00:30:09.300 in what the government's

00:30:10.120 doing here.

00:30:11.460 Well, what's Canada's

00:30:12.800 strategic advantage?

00:30:13.580 Well, this is what I feel

00:30:14.300 practically,

00:30:14.860 from a national perspective,

00:30:16.340 as it was just my own company,

00:30:17.660 is that, you know,

00:30:18.720 we are a country

00:30:20.400 with massive resources,

00:30:22.840 very few people

00:30:23.700 that need them

00:30:24.440 to use them.

00:30:25.380 And we have the shortest

00:30:27.160 trade routes to Europe,

00:30:30.060 you know,

00:30:30.500 don't count Russia

00:30:31.780 for some obvious reasons,

00:30:32.700 you know,

00:30:33.000 and maybe let's just

00:30:33.600 leave Norway out. 0.99

00:30:34.520 They can't supply it itself

00:30:35.640 for now.

00:30:36.480 United States

00:30:37.240 and Northern Asia.

00:30:38.880 We're in the catbird seat.

00:30:40.940 Canada shouldn't be

00:30:41.860 talking now.

00:30:43.000 It's time.

00:30:44.480 You know,

00:30:44.760 people said the 20th century

00:30:45.960 belonged to Canada.

00:30:47.100 Well, it didn't really.

00:30:48.200 It belonged to our

00:30:48.760 senior partners

00:30:49.540 and we were the junior partner

00:30:50.900 punching above our weight

00:30:51.900 in World War II,

00:30:52.720 Korea,

00:30:53.240 and peacekeeping

00:30:54.840 and now maybe

00:30:56.900 on global environmental issues,

00:30:58.380 you know,

00:30:58.680 we're looking to try

00:30:59.180 to be world leaders there too.

00:31:00.340 But always as a junior partner.

00:31:03.300 But where we're at right now,

00:31:04.500 we could be the senior partner.

00:31:05.780 The American,

00:31:06.460 European,

00:31:06.960 and Northern Asian communities,

00:31:08.760 India,

00:31:09.060 we have decent trade routes

00:31:10.460 to India even.

00:31:11.820 They need what we have.

00:31:13.620 And if we were astute

00:31:15.180 about our strategic advantages

00:31:17.180 in the world,

00:31:17.800 we would step up

00:31:18.880 as the senior partner.

00:31:20.520 If you don't treat us well,

00:31:23.240 you won't get what you need

00:31:25.620 and we have what you need

00:31:26.980 and you should want it from us.

00:31:28.960 We're responsible.

00:31:31.100 You know,

00:31:31.640 like, you know,

00:31:32.140 with the,

00:31:32.460 with the speaker really just,

00:31:34.800 you know,

00:31:35.240 you don't need to send

00:31:35.980 the National Guard to Canada,

00:31:37.520 right?

00:31:38.180 So,

00:31:39.040 you can count on us

00:31:40.620 to be reliable,

00:31:41.460 but not only that,

00:31:42.800 socially responsible.

00:31:43.960 It's not just that

00:31:44.940 you can count on us

00:31:45.880 unlike Russia right now.

00:31:47.480 You can't even count on

00:31:48.240 to deliver on contracts

00:31:49.880 for,

00:31:51.320 so it's not just

00:31:52.540 that you can count on us

00:31:53.380 to deliver on a contract

00:31:54.520 and keep our,

00:31:55.400 our agreements.

00:31:56.700 You can count on us

00:31:57.440 that we use the profit

00:31:58.560 of that

00:31:59.680 not to fund terrorists.

00:32:01.340 We use it

00:32:02.180 to build hospitals,

00:32:03.120 to build a better society,

00:32:04.380 to,

00:32:04.580 to build a culture

00:32:06.500 that's aligned

00:32:07.160 with your values.

00:32:08.220 So,

00:32:08.760 why would you want

00:32:09.840 to deal with anybody else

00:32:10.740 and why aren't we

00:32:11.880 taking that

00:32:12.600 and making Canada

00:32:13.600 the senior,

00:32:14.840 respected partner

00:32:15.580 in the world

00:32:15.920 because everyone

00:32:16.320 knows we need Canada.

00:32:17.340 As a clarion call

00:32:19.160 to Canada

00:32:19.900 and its leaders,

00:32:20.840 people should listen to it.

00:32:22.040 Michael Binion,

00:32:22.800 always a pleasure.

00:32:23.480 Thank you.

00:32:23.940 Thank you,

00:32:24.200 have your hand.

00:32:25.160 That was my interview

00:32:26.360 with Michael Binion.

00:32:27.600 We'll have the next part

00:32:28.400 of the Unjust Transition

00:32:30.180 series tomorrow

00:32:31.480 here on

00:32:32.540 The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:32:33.740 But I do want to

00:32:34.780 just wrap things up here

00:32:35.860 because I have to get

00:32:36.760 to court.

00:32:37.600 We're pre-recording

00:32:38.160 the show this week

00:32:39.000 just so we can

00:32:39.820 keep everything fresh

00:32:40.800 and I'm not missing

00:32:41.380 anything that's going on

00:32:42.360 in the courtroom.

00:32:44.220 But I wanted to share

00:32:45.380 this interview

00:32:45.860 I was going to last week

00:32:47.160 and then everything

00:32:47.560 got kind of sidelined

00:32:48.660 when the federal court

00:32:49.720 decision came in

00:32:50.720 that found the

00:32:51.620 Emergencies Act

00:32:52.300 to be unconstitutional.

00:32:53.800 And it is a bit

00:32:55.060 of a holdover,

00:32:55.880 a leftover I should say,

00:32:57.020 from my time in Davos

00:32:58.860 covering the

00:32:59.720 World Economic Forum

00:33:01.300 annual meeting

00:33:02.260 which I believe

00:33:03.160 we are going to go back

00:33:04.240 and do the next one of.

00:33:05.220 So I've had some people

00:33:06.340 asking already.

00:33:07.200 I think we're still

00:33:07.640 trying to figure out

00:33:08.260 the accommodation situation

00:33:09.600 which as you know

00:33:10.300 is always the most annoying

00:33:12.300 part of that process.

00:33:13.260 But I think we can

00:33:13.920 make it work

00:33:14.360 without having to do

00:33:15.020 some like cross-country

00:33:16.080 commute every day

00:33:17.540 that will have us

00:33:18.600 in the cars

00:33:18.980 on the mountain roads.

00:33:19.740 But anyway,

00:33:20.160 I've complained

00:33:20.880 about the commute

00:33:21.380 too much already.

00:33:22.500 I wanted to go back

00:33:23.700 to the basics here.

00:33:25.100 Go back to first principles

00:33:26.080 and talk about the why

00:33:27.500 and why we started

00:33:29.060 covering the

00:33:29.840 World Economic Forum

00:33:30.900 in 2022,

00:33:31.980 why we went back

00:33:32.760 in 2023

00:33:33.380 and again this year

00:33:34.960 and are likely

00:33:36.040 doing so next year

00:33:37.660 as well.

00:33:38.580 And it's simply put

00:33:40.280 because no one else

00:33:41.820 is doing it well.

00:33:43.580 And I know there's

00:33:44.240 a bit of arrogance

00:33:44.800 inherent in that

00:33:45.700 to say,

00:33:46.180 oh well,

00:33:46.520 you know,

00:33:46.700 we're doing something

00:33:47.260 that no one else

00:33:47.840 in the world

00:33:48.260 is able to do.

00:33:49.520 I would say it's

00:33:50.680 that no one else

00:33:51.420 in the world

00:33:51.880 is willing to do.

00:33:53.480 There have been

00:33:53.900 considerably few players

00:33:55.600 that have decided

00:33:56.880 to go up

00:33:57.800 and, you know,

00:33:58.480 talk to the global elites

00:33:59.480 to put a microphone

00:34:00.220 in the face

00:34:00.780 of the Queen

00:34:01.680 of the Netherlands

00:34:02.220 or the CFO of Google

00:34:03.640 or Mark Carney

00:34:04.680 or whatever

00:34:05.440 and ask these questions

00:34:07.020 that matter to people

00:34:08.020 but often are never asked

00:34:09.620 because no one

00:34:10.160 who's ever in the room

00:34:10.920 with them wants to ask

00:34:12.560 because they want

00:34:13.160 to just keep getting

00:34:13.860 invited back into the room.

00:34:15.320 So there's something

00:34:15.820 rather blissful

00:34:16.800 in not being in the room

00:34:18.320 in the first place

00:34:19.000 because you don't have

00:34:20.080 anything to protect.

00:34:21.260 You have nothing to lose

00:34:22.180 except your integrity

00:34:23.480 which is only going

00:34:24.660 to be lost

00:34:25.160 if you don't go

00:34:26.180 and do the work

00:34:26.920 that people around the world

00:34:28.160 I think need you to do.

00:34:29.160 So that's a bit of a wind-up

00:34:30.760 to why we went there

00:34:32.080 and we have been joined

00:34:32.920 by some other

00:34:33.460 independent journalists.

00:34:34.400 There was a lovely

00:34:35.580 Japanese YouTuber

00:34:36.620 last year,

00:34:37.560 Masaka Ganaha

00:34:38.540 that I met

00:34:39.220 and actually appeared

00:34:40.140 on her show

00:34:41.440 talking about Davos

00:34:42.760 and also Rebel News

00:34:44.320 has sent I think

00:34:45.380 increasingly large crews

00:34:47.080 every year.

00:34:47.880 So I caught up

00:34:48.860 with Avi Amini

00:34:49.720 and Ezra Levant

00:34:50.440 on the streets of Davos

00:34:51.860 to talk about

00:34:52.400 why it is they're there as well.

00:34:54.380 Take a look.

00:34:55.380 Well as I've been saying

00:34:56.480 throughout all of my content

00:34:57.560 this week

00:34:57.940 you never know

00:34:58.440 who you are going

00:34:59.020 to run into

00:34:59.560 on the streets of Davos.

00:35:01.060 I've spent a great deal

00:35:02.140 of time chasing after

00:35:03.660 some of the big elites

00:35:05.480 people from all walks

00:35:06.360 of life here

00:35:06.900 including Steve Sedgwick

00:35:08.160 from CNBC

00:35:08.820 although he's been

00:35:09.460 friendly to us

00:35:10.320 riffraff out here 0.99

00:35:11.140 on the streets

00:35:12.560 but look at it

00:35:14.420 look at Rebel

00:35:14.960 chumming around

00:35:15.520 with the mainstream media

00:35:16.340 there.

00:35:16.760 Well two of the guys

00:35:17.800 that we've been

00:35:18.180 in some foot races

00:35:18.960 two of the guys

00:35:21.540 that we have been

00:35:22.180 in foot races with

00:35:23.280 chasing after

00:35:23.940 some of these figures

00:35:24.660 are right here

00:35:25.220 with me

00:35:25.720 Avi Amini

00:35:26.500 from Rebel News

00:35:27.200 and the Rebel

00:35:27.800 commander himself

00:35:28.740 Ezra Levant

00:35:30.060 this is I mean

00:35:30.880 Avi and I

00:35:31.400 you and I

00:35:31.860 were here in 2022

00:35:33.180 working for

00:35:33.980 different outlets

00:35:34.660 but we had kind of

00:35:35.300 a good camaraderie

00:35:37.340 going on here

00:35:38.220 what's your read

00:35:39.340 on kind of the

00:35:40.260 experience then

00:35:41.240 versus two years later

00:35:43.080 I reckon it's a lot

00:35:44.940 busier

00:35:45.340 I don't know if there's

00:35:46.340 more VIPs

00:35:47.380 but there's definitely

00:35:47.960 a lot more people

00:35:49.060 and you can see that

00:35:50.120 on the street

00:35:50.620 as well as in the

00:35:51.560 car parks for example

00:35:52.360 you just can't get parking

00:35:53.300 so that's the main

00:35:55.300 difference

00:35:55.760 the focus is

00:35:57.500 pretty similar

00:35:58.420 maybe not on the signs

00:35:59.820 you see the AI

00:36:00.460 is really dominating

00:36:02.540 the discussion

00:36:03.880 on I guess

00:36:04.640 the featuring

00:36:05.420 on all the signs

00:36:06.120 but the discussions

00:36:06.780 are still

00:36:07.260 climate change

00:36:08.780 and sustainability

00:36:10.300 is the buzzword

00:36:11.380 in town

00:36:11.980 which always feels

00:36:13.920 fun

00:36:14.500 because it's a second

00:36:15.480 word

00:36:16.000 it's a second sentence

00:36:16.960 it's a second word

00:36:17.920 in every second sentence

00:36:18.880 here when

00:36:20.200 they just don't get

00:36:20.840 the irony of it

00:36:21.600 do you think

00:36:22.400 Ezra that the influence

00:36:23.380 of the organization

00:36:24.240 has gotten greater

00:36:25.780 or lesser

00:36:27.060 in the last couple

00:36:27.920 of years

00:36:28.300 and do you feel

00:36:28.980 their security

00:36:30.660 the security

00:36:31.520 they feel about

00:36:32.220 their position

00:36:32.780 has changed

00:36:33.380 in that time

00:36:33.960 well I think

00:36:35.020 the best thing

00:36:35.580 that ever happened

00:36:36.260 to the folks

00:36:36.860 who come here

00:36:37.480 was COVID

00:36:38.500 it gave a huge boost

00:36:41.260 to international

00:36:42.620 companies

00:36:43.340 which are the bread

00:36:44.420 and butter here

00:36:44.780 there's no small

00:36:45.300 businesses here

00:36:45.920 this is transnational

00:36:47.060 corporations

00:36:47.580 this is Amazon

00:36:49.000 Jeffrey Bezos

00:36:50.160 personal wealth

00:36:51.080 doubled during

00:36:52.120 the lockdowns

00:36:52.700 because everyone

00:36:53.060 was at home

00:36:53.580 they had to

00:36:54.060 we interacted

00:36:55.680 with each other

00:36:56.800 through

00:36:57.540 tech

00:36:58.760 and there's a lot

00:36:59.900 of tech here

00:37:00.500 there's a lot

00:37:00.940 of pharma

00:37:01.520 here

00:37:02.140 now there's a lot

00:37:02.780 of AI

00:37:03.260 which worries me

00:37:04.320 because there's a lot

00:37:05.460 of censorship

00:37:06.120 here too

00:37:07.180 I mean

00:37:07.520 I can tell you

00:37:08.480 Twitter is not here

00:37:09.440 but Meha

00:37:10.200 and Google are

00:37:11.220 and so

00:37:12.720 I would say

00:37:13.620 that the WEF

00:37:14.920 has been strengthened

00:37:16.180 enormously

00:37:16.960 in real measurable

00:37:18.660 terms

00:37:19.020 financially

00:37:19.680 they had enormous

00:37:20.800 success in terms

00:37:21.860 of political power

00:37:22.840 I mean

00:37:23.500 there's royalty here

00:37:25.420 there's prime ministers

00:37:26.580 there's some presidents

00:37:27.300 here

00:37:27.660 this year

00:37:28.420 President Zelensky

00:37:30.420 of Ukraine

00:37:31.020 the Israeli president

00:37:32.480 the Argentine president

00:37:34.000 in terms of public

00:37:37.160 perception

00:37:38.240 yes

00:37:39.020 there's been more

00:37:39.760 criticism

00:37:40.540 of the World Economic

00:37:41.380 Forum too

00:37:41.940 but what do they care

00:37:43.520 Avi scrummed

00:37:44.820 and you were in that

00:37:45.500 same scrum

00:37:45.940 what am I saying

00:37:46.420 the two years

00:37:47.400 scrummed

00:37:48.400 Dr. Tedros Adhanom

00:37:50.460 the head of the World

00:37:51.840 Health Organization

00:37:52.700 really

00:37:53.360 the Globes

00:37:54.600 Anthony Fauci

00:37:55.800 and you guys

00:37:57.040 landed a few

00:37:57.600 punches on him

00:37:58.360 verbally

00:37:58.800 but what does he care

00:38:00.620 he can't be fired

00:38:01.940 he can't be voted out

00:38:03.600 to you

00:38:04.520 it was like

00:38:05.060 ants

00:38:05.520 at a picnic

00:38:06.180 I mean

00:38:06.440 he looked down

00:38:06.940 and you said

00:38:07.300 oh ants

00:38:07.840 I mean

00:38:08.720 what does he care

00:38:10.440 most of the people

00:38:11.740 here

00:38:12.040 are democratically

00:38:13.580 immune

00:38:14.360 they're a permanent

00:38:15.920 class of ruler

00:38:17.960 that's how it is

00:38:19.000 we are back

00:38:20.120 part of the fun

00:38:20.820 of Davos

00:38:21.280 so that you never

00:38:21.700 know who you're

00:38:22.220 going to run into

00:38:22.900 as I said at the top

00:38:23.840 and we took a moment

00:38:24.940 because we thought

00:38:26.700 well no we thought

00:38:27.640 you guys saw someone

00:38:28.460 that you wanted to do

00:38:29.060 a bit of a reprise on

00:38:30.420 so you had to scurry away

00:38:32.300 but we're back

00:38:32.880 we're standing as close

00:38:34.180 to original positions

00:38:35.060 as possible

00:38:35.620 but we're honest media

00:38:36.820 we wanted to acknowledge

00:38:37.700 the cut

00:38:38.140 and not fool you

00:38:38.820 by throwing some b-roll

00:38:39.680 over it

00:38:40.040 not that we've ever done that

00:38:40.940 so before we broke away

00:38:43.100 Avi I was going to ask you

00:38:43.960 about your sense here

00:38:45.540 because one thing

00:38:46.160 that I found

00:38:46.720 a little bit interesting

00:38:47.640 is that a lot of these folks

00:38:48.860 are not used to being

00:38:50.300 questioned here

00:38:51.100 but this year

00:38:51.960 they seem to be

00:38:52.500 a lot more sceptical

00:38:53.540 I'm seeing people

00:38:54.140 hiding their name tags

00:38:55.420 I'm seeing people

00:38:55.980 cross the street

00:38:56.940 I don't want to say

00:38:57.980 it's because of you

00:38:58.700 and I

00:38:59.000 I think we may be

00:38:59.680 contributing though

00:39:00.340 do you agree

00:39:00.760 I certainly am

00:39:01.980 yeah you are

00:39:03.880 and it's funny

00:39:04.480 because we have

00:39:04.820 different styles

00:39:05.440 which is fun

00:39:05.920 you're polite

00:39:06.940 I think if I wasn't here

00:39:08.360 you'd probably get away

00:39:09.220 with it

00:39:09.700 yeah because I

00:39:10.740 think Tedros

00:39:11.620 would have spoken to me

00:39:12.940 but then you go in there

00:39:14.600 and go for the jugular

00:39:15.920 right away

00:39:16.640 and he just shuts down

00:39:18.240 but that's part of it

00:39:19.180 and these people

00:39:20.060 are not used to

00:39:20.800 being surrounded

00:39:21.620 by critical media

00:39:23.420 are they

00:39:23.880 no

00:39:24.640 and you're right

00:39:25.800 like I think there is

00:39:26.800 you know

00:39:28.060 I've seen even other people

00:39:29.420 and it should be mentioned

00:39:30.820 there's a lot of people

00:39:31.320 that come in here 0.77

00:39:31.880 that come up on the side

00:39:32.940 and go

00:39:33.140 oh amazing work

00:39:34.300 we love what you're doing

00:39:34.960 good on you

00:39:35.460 you know

00:39:36.020 they're probably just

00:39:36.640 opportunistic

00:39:37.360 and using the event

00:39:39.780 as a networking

00:39:40.860 but you know

00:39:42.120 people have seen us

00:39:43.020 running up and down

00:39:44.020 scrumming

00:39:44.720 political figures

00:39:46.820 or business figures

00:39:47.700 or any of these

00:39:48.960 so I think the word

00:39:50.520 certainly got out there

00:39:51.320 and I think it also

00:39:51.760 got out there

00:39:52.220 in past years

00:39:52.840 wasn't it last year

00:39:53.740 when you actually

00:39:54.980 got accredited

00:39:55.560 it had suddenly

00:39:56.680 listed the second year

00:39:57.720 to actually hide

00:40:00.260 your identification

00:40:00.860 when you came out here

00:40:01.940 and I think that was

00:40:02.660 from our first year

00:40:03.680 of being here

00:40:04.540 you and I

00:40:05.020 yeah so Ezra

00:40:06.500 I'll ask you where you think

00:40:07.460 the future of this is

00:40:08.500 because there are a lot of people

00:40:09.740 that really I've not been able

00:40:11.900 to get to answer

00:40:12.680 the question that has really

00:40:13.760 been burning on my mind

00:40:14.820 which is

00:40:15.180 what do you get out of it

00:40:16.320 I want to hear some of the

00:40:17.100 business figures say

00:40:18.060 what is worth

00:40:19.440 hundreds of thousands

00:40:20.400 of dollars to be here

00:40:21.480 and I want to hear the

00:40:22.400 politicians say

00:40:23.200 what it is

00:40:23.660 now I have my own suspicions

00:40:24.880 but I've yet to get an answer

00:40:26.420 from that

00:40:26.960 I suspect whatever they've

00:40:28.380 gotten out of it in the past

00:40:29.320 they're still getting out of it

00:40:30.300 and in that sense

00:40:30.940 it'll probably continue

00:40:31.820 all of this won't it

00:40:32.680 you know

00:40:33.240 as you walk up and down the streets

00:40:34.540 you overhear

00:40:35.560 a snippet of a conversation

00:40:37.120 just a second or two

00:40:38.360 let me give you

00:40:39.700 two snippets that I heard today

00:40:41.620 hand to God

00:40:42.720 we made 400 million

00:40:45.960 off that

00:40:46.900 300 million dollar loan

00:40:50.140 like just little snippets

00:40:51.300 I don't know who they were

00:40:52.440 what they were talking about

00:40:53.320 that's what I overheard

00:40:55.080 and you probably heard

00:40:55.760 similar things

00:40:56.620 now some of the talk

00:40:58.720 is just puffery

00:40:59.720 and BS

00:41:00.360 and people trying to climb up

00:41:02.600 the greasy poll

00:41:03.420 but there is no denying

00:41:05.440 that the net worth

00:41:07.260 and the amount of assets

00:41:09.340 controlled by the people here

00:41:10.660 is in the tens of trillions

00:41:13.300 BlackRock itself controls

00:41:15.060 10 trillion

00:41:15.680 just one company

00:41:16.680 that's Larry Fink

00:41:17.340 and like I say

00:41:19.100 there's presidents

00:41:19.780 and there's royalty

00:41:20.620 so what do they get out of it

00:41:22.720 they have an elite gathering

00:41:25.100 much of it hidden

00:41:27.520 there's no transcript

00:41:29.060 there's no hand service

00:41:30.220 as we call it

00:41:30.860 there's no question period

00:41:32.300 there's no official opposition

00:41:33.560 the media is tightly controlled

00:41:36.580 what do they get out of it

00:41:37.600 it's a private playground

00:41:39.160 where they can frolic

00:41:40.160 and do their dirty deals

00:41:41.020 in Canada

00:41:41.600 Chrystia Freeland

00:41:42.740 came here

00:41:43.560 met with McKinsey

00:41:44.640 ta-da 0.62

00:41:45.120 they got a nine figure contract

00:41:46.720 from the Canadian government

00:41:47.800 that's what they do here

00:41:49.880 and so I think

00:41:51.660 they would like to ban

00:41:54.140 citizen journalists

00:41:55.200 now I don't know

00:41:56.120 if Switzerland will go along

00:41:57.040 with that

00:41:57.320 let me give you a quick anecdote

00:41:58.520 I scrummed someone

00:42:01.060 from the Rockefeller Foundation

00:42:02.400 which I think

00:42:03.360 is a very legitimate thing

00:42:04.360 she's a public person

00:42:05.660 who has been spending

00:42:06.860 tens of millions of dollars

00:42:07.800 in Canada

00:42:08.320 to disrupt our oil and gas economy

00:42:09.980 so she ducked into a pavilion

00:42:12.180 and a security guard

00:42:13.420 came out and said

00:42:13.820 you out

00:42:14.760 you go now move

00:42:16.240 well I know a little bit

00:42:17.560 about the law in Switzerland

00:42:18.400 not a lot

00:42:19.020 and I said no

00:42:20.140 I said you go get the cop

00:42:21.620 and he walked over to the cop

00:42:22.780 across the street

00:42:23.480 I could see them talking

00:42:24.660 talking talking talking

00:42:25.540 and nothing

00:42:27.840 just because some security guard

00:42:30.700 doesn't want me talking

00:42:31.580 to a VVIP

00:42:32.500 the Swiss police 0.67

00:42:33.700 couldn't give a damn

00:42:35.080 as long as

00:42:36.460 and I later walked over

00:42:38.020 to the cop and said

00:42:38.620 hey I just want to tell you

00:42:39.360 my intentions

00:42:39.920 he said as long as

00:42:41.080 you don't touch people

00:42:42.080 actually he said

00:42:43.720 slightly differently

00:42:44.540 but

00:42:45.200 I think that you might

00:42:49.100 see the World Economic Forum

00:42:50.500 try to

00:42:52.080 keep citizen journalists

00:42:54.720 out

00:42:54.900 I don't know how successful

00:42:55.740 they'll be

00:42:56.120 alright well

00:42:57.040 I think we're going to

00:42:57.700 continue covering it

00:42:58.600 because no one else is

00:42:59.560 and clearly the audience

00:43:00.540 loves it

00:43:01.140 I know that we are

00:43:02.160 from different outlets

00:43:03.080 but I think the more

00:43:03.780 independent journalists

00:43:04.440 doing this the better

00:43:05.200 so Avi Amini

00:43:06.240 Ezra Levant

00:43:06.820 thank you so much

00:43:07.600 and Ofiderson

00:43:08.240 that was Avi

00:43:10.620 and Ezra

00:43:11.420 on the streets

00:43:12.480 of Davos

00:43:13.320 well it was also me

00:43:14.080 on the streets of Davos

00:43:14.900 now I'm on the streets

00:43:15.640 of DC

00:43:16.020 so another

00:43:16.640 actually that's

00:43:18.560 there's a weird question

00:43:19.360 I wonder where the people

00:43:20.280 who you'd rather spend time with

00:43:22.160 the people of Davos

00:43:22.920 or the people of DC

00:43:23.680 I would say the people of DC

00:43:25.240 because DC

00:43:26.300 you can find

00:43:27.380 some normal

00:43:28.720 real people here

00:43:29.800 Davos

00:43:30.220 there are very few of those

00:43:31.540 I shouldn't say none

00:43:32.540 I mean the people

00:43:33.500 that work in Davos

00:43:34.780 are good

00:43:35.380 but they're not the ones

00:43:36.360 who live in Davos

00:43:37.060 and they would never

00:43:37.760 call themselves Davos people

00:43:39.240 like Christopher Eland

00:43:41.020 and Mark Carney

00:43:41.540 and all of them will

00:43:42.180 but anyway

00:43:42.680 that is it for today

00:43:44.460 we'll be back tomorrow

00:43:45.260 with more of

00:43:45.980 The Andrew Lawton Show

00:43:46.780 and another update

00:43:47.540 from the great

00:43:48.400 climate free speech trial

00:43:49.720 of the century

00:43:50.500 here on True North

00:43:51.780 thank you

00:43:52.320 God bless

00:43:52.880 and good day to you all

00:43:54.220 thanks for listening

00:43:55.480 to The Andrew Lawton Show

00:43:56.660 support the program

00:43:57.960 by donating to True North

00:43:59.220 at www.tnc.news

Juno News - January 30, 2024

UNRWA association with terrorists is nothing new

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