Juno News - April 30, 2023


Unveiling the truth about assisted dying in Canada

Topics
organ donation euthanasia
Mentioned
Daniel Koeman Andrew Lawton Show Andrew Koeman Organ Donation Euthanasia Justin Trudeau David Lamedi Christine Gauthier Sanu Gan Matt
Standing up for law-abiding gun owners Poilievre spars with Liberal MPs after new reports reveal that China targeted Canadian MPs

Episode Stats


Length

19 minutes

Words per minute

193.16

Word count

3,697

Sentence count

200

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of the new docu-series "Made in Canada" hosted by the Koeman Brothers, Andrew and Daniel, join me to talk about MAID, the controversial assisted dying regime in Canada, and why it needs to stop.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 I want to talk about this series which has been exposing and adding a lot of context and nuance
00:00:14.620 to an issue that is near and dear to my heart for reasons I've discussed on the show and in writing
00:00:19.800 and that is Canada's assisted dying regime.
00:00:23.640 MAID is the more palatable term. 0.99
00:00:26.660 Euthanasia is the one that we're told is a little bit outmoded.
00:00:30.460 But essentially it is the state's sanctioning and facilitation of an individual's death
00:00:36.820 which is under the Liberals getting a heck of a lot easier
00:00:39.860 because they are capitulating to the activists that don't believe
00:00:43.460 there should really be that much in the way of constraints
00:00:47.040 even for those who are suffering from mental illness
00:00:49.360 and as we've seen in a couple of cases people who aren't suffering from any condition
00:00:53.380 but are dealing with poverty and are in need of support
00:00:56.200 and are instead being offered by a variety of public service workers into the idea of MAID. 0.99
00:01:03.020 Well, this new docu-series is trying to shine a light on this.
00:01:06.840 It's called Made in Canada.
00:01:08.840 It's produced by the Koeman Brothers and Unveil TV
00:01:12.880 and I should just say by way of disclosure, one of the Koeman Brothers, Andrew Koeman, I go to church with
00:01:18.480 although I'm not doing this as a favour to Andrew, I'm doing it because it's a tremendous series
00:01:22.840 and I just want you to take a look at the trailer for the second episode which just came out.
00:01:27.920 First of all, the individual who made recommendations to a veteran around medical assistance in dying
00:01:36.440 is no longer working with veterans.
00:01:39.140 That was absolutely unacceptable.
00:01:41.000 I have a letter saying that if you are so desperate, madam,
00:01:44.320 we can offer you MAID medical assistance in dying. 0.99
00:01:48.220 It's better than blowing your brains out against the wall. 0.69
00:01:51.500 That is what he told me, she said.
00:01:53.960 This is a damning indictment of the government's handling of this bill, Madam Speaker.
00:02:04.980 It is very well done.
00:02:06.980 You can check it out at madeincanada.org.
00:02:09.820 Joining me is Andrew Koeman, the producer and one of the directors, Daniel Koeman.
00:02:14.540 Andrew, Daniel, good to talk to you both.
00:02:16.320 Thanks for coming on today.
00:02:18.220 Thanks, Andrew.
00:02:19.860 So let's start off with why decide to tell this story because it is a hot-button issue.
00:02:25.100 It is a contentious one.
00:02:26.160 Why did you want to get into this fight?
00:02:28.360 Yeah, such a good question.
00:02:29.220 So I was living my best pandemic life, you know, just kind of in the blur of everything,
00:02:34.440 shut down and all that happened, you know, raising two young kids,
00:02:37.800 working a full-time gig and living in Ontario.
00:02:41.040 So we had a lot of disruption to daily life.
00:02:43.900 And honestly, I was not engaged.
00:02:45.640 I didn't even really know about medical assistance in dying in Canada.
00:02:49.280 Vaguely remembered 2016 that the criminal code had changed and that had some implications.
00:02:53.700 But it was honestly, Andrew, because I follow your substack and I read your article that you wrote about, you know,
00:02:59.880 if 10 years ago when you went through a mental health crisis, if, you know, with expansion of this new law,
00:03:06.840 if you had gone through that today, you could have been a candidate for medical assistance in dying.
00:03:11.320 And that actually shocked me.
00:03:13.120 And then I started to do some research.
00:03:14.520 I read some other articles and just kind of woke up to the reality of what was taking place in my own country,
00:03:20.040 what was moving forward in parliament, and that we were on the precipice of this moment where mental health could become a sole consideration for doctor-assisted death.
00:03:29.480 I was really shocked by that.
00:03:31.160 Dan, Matt, and I, who were producing the film together, we started talking about it.
00:03:34.960 It's really the setup for an incredible horror film.
00:03:37.520 Like, it could be this great dramatic feature.
00:03:39.260 We actually talked about that.
00:03:40.760 That might be a film we should do.
00:03:43.580 And then realized, wow, like, there's probably so many Canadians just like us, average people,
00:03:47.660 who weren't aware of how rapidly this had expanded and that there's already been 30,000 deaths since 2016 because of this procedure or more and counting.
00:03:56.200 And we started asking questions and we said, we just got to, you know, get the cameras rolling,
00:04:00.540 get some people on camera to talk about this, to learn more, and see if Canadians really want this.
00:04:05.120 Well, I'm humbled that I got to play even a small role in inspiring this.
00:04:10.840 I mean, as I said, when I wrote that and in other discussions, I think more people need to be aware of it.
00:04:14.820 And that's the challenge is that you can't even get to the solution phase of a problem if a lot of people in the country don't even know it's a problem and don't even know what's happening.
00:04:24.500 So I'll ask you more from just the, I guess, the directorial perspective, Daniel, how do you go about telling this story?
00:04:32.080 How do you go about, in not a huge amount of time, putting this problem that many people may never have really heard of or only may have heard of peripherally in front of them?
00:04:40.800 Well, that is the question.
00:04:42.740 And if you find an answer, let us know.
00:04:44.380 But I think it's like I hearken back to when we did a film about human trafficking called She Has a Name.
00:04:51.160 And it's a similar thing where you can hear about an issue and you get peripheral sound bites and you get stuff kind of flying by in the distance.
00:04:58.440 And then slowly the sort of shrapnel from the cannon fire gets a little closer to home.
00:05:04.320 And for us, when we did the human trafficking story, it was when we met an actual survivor from our small hometown of Red Deer, Alberta, where we went, whoa, human trafficking is not only real, but it's on my own doorstep.
00:05:15.460 Well, the same thing happened with this medical assistance and dying issue.
00:05:18.440 Literally, almost as if I had entered a war zone when it had shifted to a narrative that within it was actually March 2023 that they were going to initially try to force through this change in the in the law, which would allow condition of soul, condition of mental illness, which they've bumped by a year.
00:05:36.360 And we got to do everything we can in the next, you know, nine to 12 months here to try to raise awareness about it.
00:05:40.800 But it was when that happened, I guess, around January, February, I started getting news articles.
00:05:46.300 I started hearing about people connected to my own small community now in the Comox Valley that have loved ones that have used MAID, have loved ones that are considering MAID, have loved ones that are applying for MAID right now, have loved ones that are in line for when conditions solely mental illness, they are going to be there at the front.
00:06:05.900 That was such a bring it too close to home moment for me and for us as brothers as filmmakers is like, we need to tell this story because I believe when people do hear it, they are shocked.
00:06:16.100 Because we're not talking about the cases that it was, quote unquote, initially made for in this series.
00:06:20.960 We're talking about people who are vulnerable, people who have disabilities, people, their sole condition right now might be that they're legally blind and they're going to get MAID and they have 45 years to live.
00:06:31.440 Like we're talking about these stories of Canadian veterans like Christine Gauthier, who's a five-time world champion.
00:06:36.680 She's a Paralympian. 0.55
00:06:37.600 She's a Canadian hero.
00:06:38.500 She's a veteran.
00:06:39.100 She served in Canada's military and veteran affairs on outgoing calls offered her medical assistance in dying rather than a wheelchair lift, which is what she actually needed.
00:06:49.540 So these are the kind of stories that when they're put in front of audiences, I really do believe that it shifts from awareness to action.
00:06:55.260 And I hope that everybody listening will realize that their voice in this conversation matters.
00:06:59.680 And even a small, faint little shout from a corner of a dark room is going to make a difference in this case.
00:07:05.440 When you mentioned the case of Christine, which is, I think, a shocking one and one that really put this issue on the radar for a lot of Canadians, all of these stories that have come up, of which there have not been an inconsequential amount, they're not denied by the Liberal government.
00:07:20.000 But Justin Trudeau, David Lamedi, the Attorney General, they sort of all just say they're outliers.
00:07:24.460 You know, Trudeau, I know you shared the clip and it was in the trailer there.
00:07:27.780 Oh, well, yeah, we got rid of the person.
00:07:29.640 That was unacceptable.
00:07:31.040 David Lamedi saying, yeah, the system's kind of working.
00:07:33.500 But were you finding as you delved into this that those were not the exceptions, that those were actually the rule?
00:07:40.620 I think, you know, we're talking to physicians.
00:07:42.320 We're talking to psychiatrists.
00:07:43.680 We're talking to disability advocates.
00:07:45.140 We're talking to families who are left behind.
00:07:47.640 And I would say it is not the exception.
00:07:50.000 I don't know if I'd go so far to say this is a rule, but I think.
00:07:53.900 But they're not just they're not just aberrations.
00:07:56.160 They're not aberrations.
00:07:57.100 And, you know, I've emailed every MP in Canada personally as a concerned citizen to say, hey, I'm concerned about made.
00:08:03.340 What's your stance?
00:08:04.060 What are you going to do about it?
00:08:05.420 What do you think about expansion?
00:08:06.900 I didn't know if I'd get any responses, but I've got a lot.
00:08:10.540 And the parties have a pretty packaged message.
00:08:14.440 They're pretty in line.
00:08:15.800 I mean, even hearing from like liberal members that they think this is a dangerous path.
00:08:20.900 I think the party has been whipped to have a certain talking point.
00:08:26.000 But I think they're and what they're doing is saying this pause is almost a safeguard in and of itself.
00:08:31.160 Our concern is that we'll just wait a year and they're going to just continue moving forward and that they've just used this time delay as a perception of safeguarding.
00:08:39.980 And as we talked to, you know, people like Dr. Sanu Gan from the University of Toronto, he he's an incredible psychiatrist and he he's a maid assessor and he works on a maid committee.
00:08:49.980 But he said he will resign from his position if if it expands to mental health.
00:08:55.920 So they're like, you know, not just like filmmakers who are just learning about this, raising the red flag, but people who this is their their vocation are are saying this is their these are aberrations.
00:09:07.840 This is really or sorry, not aberration.
00:09:09.800 This is like this is alarming.
00:09:11.880 And, you know, we've had 100 plus disability advocacy groups saying to the government, please do not expand this.
00:09:18.800 This is a social experiment that is tragic when you bring in people living with disabilities, when you bring in mental health. 1.00
00:09:24.760 And we really we do think it's not apoplectic to say that this will open a Pandora's box because these experts are saying people with mental health issues who get made would have gotten better.
00:09:35.820 We just won't know who they are because they'll be dead.
00:09:39.120 Just to drill down on that coalition you you allude to there, people sort of expect faith based groups to be opposed to this because they're traditionally pro-life on other issues.
00:09:49.300 People sort of expect, I think, large C conservative politicians to come out against this.
00:09:54.760 This is something that is attracting a resistance from people that are not just Christians and not just conservatives.
00:10:01.320 It's attracting, as you mentioned, the disability rights advocates, the the mental health advocates, people that are not political may actually be be quite on the left.
00:10:08.760 And were you finding you were able to get that diversity in the people you interviewed, Daniel?
00:10:13.720 Yeah, that that was probably in many ways what made it such an obvious.
00:10:18.880 Well, it was called a catastrophic social experiment by someone in a testimony in Ottawa.
00:10:25.340 And I think that all of these different voices lend to that that definition because, yeah, you start to see that, wow, like everyday Canadians from every walk of life, when they hear the actual facts, not just the talking points that are pushed out on mainstream media, but the actual facts and the people who are affected negatively by this.
00:10:44.100 They basically I mean, you you barely squeak out the national anthem when you know the truth, because it's so heartbreaking to think that this is where Canada is headed and it's a fringe group of people, an actual fringe group of people in the government in Ottawa that are pushing this and believe in this.
00:11:02.740 And the expansion of it should really should really it should shock and alarm us to the point that we want to do something.
00:11:08.820 And I think it can't be understated that every single person has not only an ability to raise some issues around this and to try to see if they can be a part of the solution and changing and curbing it.
00:11:20.580 But like we have a moral responsibility as Canadians, because this is a battle for the soul of our nation.
00:11:25.220 I really believe that. And I don't think those come up every day.
00:11:28.120 I think that this is an issue that is threatening the actual makeup of who we are as a country and where it it really is a sign of where we could be headed if we don't address it.
00:11:38.380 And hearing those different voices to your question from every different I mean, originally we thought, well, maybe it'll be like a certain group of people that will kind of share our viewpoint.
00:11:48.760 Well, no, it was doctors, ethicists, people in disability groups, average citizens, people in the workforce, young people, old people, you know, people that are veterans that have served our country, people from all the different walks of life.
00:12:00.940 And it really is accelerated so fast. It's very alarming.
00:12:05.180 And again, I just continue to believe that true Canadians are going to rise up and say something about this.
00:12:11.700 I didn't warn you ahead of time that I would be giving you an assignment, but I hope you'll indulge me for a moment.
00:12:16.680 I want to put up a chart from Statistics Canada here.
00:12:20.040 And this is, again, government data. This is irrefutable as far as the government's idea is concerned.
00:12:24.680 And this looks at the total made deaths in Canada over the last five years, up until the last year for which numbers are available, 2021.
00:12:32.720 And you see every year it's going up, you know, 1,000, 2,800, 4,456.
00:12:39.060 2021, 10,064 made deaths in Canada.
00:12:43.460 Now, that is astronomical. You compare that to some of the most liberal made regimes in the world, like in the Netherlands,
00:12:51.800 which has, I think, actually per capita fewer now, if I'm not mistaken.
00:12:56.460 And I need to go back and check that.
00:12:58.100 And other countries, you look at places like California, and it's just a fraction of a fraction.
00:13:02.280 Were you able to diagnose in the course of your interviews why Canada is such an outlier here?
00:13:09.480 Why Canada has become this made country?
00:13:13.860 It's definitely a question we're asking.
00:13:16.060 California is such an interesting case study because, like, from a population standpoint,
00:13:20.620 California and Canada are almost similar in population.
00:13:23.000 And MAID is available there, except patients must kind of fulfill the procedure themselves.
00:13:30.060 A doctor will set up the scenario, and then the patient is the one that takes their own life.
00:13:34.940 And so I think there's a discrepancy.
00:13:36.480 I think that because in Canada, a doctor will do the procedure.
00:13:40.400 So I think that it's almost like the stigma of suicide is still attached to it in California.
00:13:45.760 That's kind of my hypothesis, and I think there's some writing and research on that.
00:13:49.060 So I think that's one thing that we're learning.
00:13:50.480 I think we're just, like, more than any other country, we have fewer safeguards.
00:13:56.040 And so I think if you follow that logic, if we continue to remove safeguards, we're going to have more and more problems.
00:14:02.800 And they haven't released the numbers for 2022 yet, and we're expecting it will be much higher than 10,000 people.
00:14:09.100 Just to interject there, so do you view it not as a cultural or social problem, but as a policy problem purely?
00:14:15.960 I think there's a number of things.
00:14:18.280 I think it's ideological.
00:14:19.980 I think there's a policy problem as well.
00:14:22.580 But I think when you remove the individual's hand from the procedure, then it definitely, when you make it a medical procedure, and you take off, you know, the stigma of taking your own life, there's something that changes with the procedure itself.
00:14:39.880 And I think that, you know, even the euphemism that we use, medical assistance in dying, is significant, and the words matter.
00:14:47.260 And that's a definite intentional change in the language.
00:14:52.640 You know, and this is the irony in Canada.
00:14:54.580 It's a sad and tragic irony.
00:14:55.780 We have worked for decades to stop suicide at all costs.
00:14:59.960 And now, out of the same mouth, the government, like, which has worked, has worked so hard, and I would, and I commend the government of, you know, if the past president for all the work they've done to stop suicide, we have a suicide hotline, there's resources.
00:15:14.140 But now, that same entity is saying, this is okay.
00:15:20.340 It's a totally confusing and mixed message, and one that I think just the damage done to the stop suicide movement is going to be incalculable.
00:15:29.460 Yeah, and that was, I mean, one of the reasons I shared my own story there, is that I'm so grateful that I had doctors that said, no, I'm not going to settle for some young man that could have a bright future going down the road of suicide.
00:15:41.680 And now you push this into the current context when suicide is seen as a medical treatment, and it's seen as an answer to problems, rather than the type of thing that is itself a problem.
00:15:53.840 I'll give the last word to you on this, Daniel.
00:15:55.960 Daniel, I know your first episode really looks at kind of the bigger picture of this, setting the table.
00:16:00.280 The second episode, which we shared the trailer for early, talks about Canada's heroes and their treatment.
00:16:05.880 Where do you go from here?
00:16:08.220 Yeah, well, we have four more episodes in the queue, and it's worth noting it's a viewer-supported series, so anyone that feels passionate about this, you can literally help us to tell this story by going to madeincanada.org and getting behind us.
00:16:20.020 Because we really felt like, for one, I personally wouldn't pay money as a pay-per-view to watch a series like this, but I would want to watch this.
00:16:30.400 And so we want it to be available free to all Canadians and people in other countries as well.
00:16:34.300 But we are calling on those that are passionate about the stories and about the issue to join along with us and support us through the Made in Canada site, and you can do that as a one-time pledge or a subscription.
00:16:44.720 But the point being, in the four additional episodes, we're going to cover quite a broad range, but specifically, we're diving right now into medical ethics.
00:16:52.640 So what are the ethics of the medical profession, and is this even possible to label as a medical treatment?
00:16:58.540 Because they actually put that word, like, treatment on stuff, and a treatment that kills you is not actually, by definition, a treatment.
00:17:05.760 It's kind of a final solution, right?
00:17:07.560 So I think it's something that we're really going to dive into as the ethical questions in the next episode.
00:17:13.080 We also have one that is about a very perplexing and shocking part of it.
00:17:17.920 It's called ODE, which stands for Organ Donation Euthanasia.
00:17:20.800 They actually promote in clinics and in hospices in Canada that we are leading all districts in organ donation euthanasia, and that should be something to weep about, not to celebrate.
00:17:33.300 And this is truly, I mean, a nurse in my own town just messaged me, because they know we're making this, and said, guess what?
00:17:39.980 They just announced that we've surpassed organ donation all-time organ donation record.
00:17:46.520 Oh, dot, dot, dot.
00:17:47.320 How do you think that happened?
00:17:48.320 So they're giving it as an alternative to say, you know what, maybe you're suffering too much, maybe life is hard, but you can go out in a blaze of glory and help somebody.
00:17:58.500 And that is called suicidal ideation, and that is a very, very dangerous, in fact, illegal thing, if you consider.
00:18:04.680 So Organ Donation Euthanasia is another episode we're working on, plus one that is very intriguing and should get people's attention, is follow the money.
00:18:14.540 What does this mean for the cost of which the actual liberal government said that our health care system is on the verge of collapse?
00:18:21.480 So the people that are saying we're going to expand medical assistance in dying also said our health care system nationwide is on the verge of collapse.
00:18:30.160 So just try to put those two together and see if the narrative lines up.
00:18:33.360 That, I mean, I've covered this issue extensively, and the organ donation dimension is not one I've come across at all.
00:18:40.560 So I'm already learning things in the interview.
00:18:42.380 I look forward to the episodes.
00:18:43.660 As mentioned, people can head to madeincanada.org, and that's the M-A-I-D spelling, madeincanada.org.
00:18:50.200 The series producer, Andrew Koeman, and one of the directors, Daniel Koeman, join me.
00:18:54.820 Now, gentlemen, thank you so much for doing this and for coming on today.
00:18:57.660 It's good to speak to you both.
00:18:58.640 Thanks for having us, Andrew.
00:18:59.980 Thank you.
00:19:00.660 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:19:02.940 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.