Juno News - UPDATE： Court orders $66,000 more in fines against Aylmer’s Church of God

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:09.980 Another day in Canada, which means still more attempts by government,

00:00:15.140 specifically in Ontario, to go after churches for wanting to assemble

00:00:19.600 as the Constitution guarantees and as their faiths have commanded them to for generations.

00:00:25.720 Most notably, we see this happening in Elmer, Ontario,

00:00:28.840 with the Church of God.

00:00:30.400 We've had the pastor there, Pastor Henry Hildebrandt, on the show in the past.

00:00:34.720 And this week, the Church of God was back in court again at the behest of the Ontario government,

00:00:40.900 trying to impose more penalties, more findings of contempt.

00:00:44.760 And the judge, after a relatively short hearing,

00:00:47.420 had actually imposed tens of thousands of dollars more in fines on the church and on its pastor.

00:00:53.940 Representing them has been Elisa Bildy, a lawyer with the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms,

00:00:58.840 Lisa, good to have you back. Thanks for coming on today.

00:01:01.420 Hi, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

00:01:03.260 So this was, I mean, as far as the long-standing back and forth we've seen on this case,

00:01:09.720 was there anything particularly unique about this hearing,

00:01:13.000 or was it just, you know, another round of fines?

00:01:15.180 Well, it was a little bit different in that it feels like things are maybe settling down a little bit.

00:01:23.360 And even though we were back in court on, you know, contempt proceedings,

00:01:26.780 which is this very serious matter,

00:01:28.580 the last time we did this,

00:01:30.980 the government made sure to tell the court all about all the transgressions

00:01:34.800 and, you know, right to the last minute,

00:01:37.540 telling about any other subsequent services that had happened since they had filed their motion.

00:01:41.420 They didn't do that this time.

00:01:43.380 And I thought that was interesting, and I noted it in court,

00:01:45.980 that basically when they had their service on May 16th,

00:01:50.660 which is what we were talking about in the contempt proceedings today,

00:01:54.760 they had 300 people in attendance.

00:01:57.500 And then there were two more services,

00:01:59.000 and there were more people in attendance.

00:02:00.620 And so it seems like, as a public health measure,

00:02:03.180 this isn't really working.

00:02:04.360 The more they come down hard on this church,

00:02:06.940 the more people want to turn up and show their support.

00:02:10.100 And so, you know, I think it's interesting that it felt a little bit more subdued this time.

00:02:15.240 And I do hope that, especially as we're moving into the summer

00:02:17.960 and things are starting to open up a little bit more, hopefully,

00:02:21.260 and more outdoor services are going to be permitted in the near future,

00:02:25.260 that the temperature will be turned down on all of this.

00:02:28.680 I know it came up at the hearing a week and a half ago,

00:02:32.140 which ultimately was the one that was adjourned to today.

00:02:34.740 And the judge had mentioned, you know, there's not much more that can be done.

00:02:38.640 We can keep putting these fines on,

00:02:40.240 but if the church is going to keep continuing to assemble

00:02:43.360 and having these services, which are now outdoor,

00:02:46.120 the government has limited means on this.

00:02:48.400 So in a lot of ways, is the government kind of conceding?

00:02:51.440 I know that was the judge that said that,

00:02:52.840 but is the government conceding that this is sort of just going to be this repetitive process?

00:02:57.920 And that might be why, as you've just said, it's losing a bit of steam?

00:03:02.500 Well, it could be this repetitive process,

00:03:04.240 but they also could escalate things and they could make this criminal contempt

00:03:09.160 and they could seek to have the pastor put in jail.

00:03:12.160 But I think probably most people recognize now,

00:03:15.660 and we've done this a few times in Alberta,

00:03:17.360 it doesn't necessarily solve the problem

00:03:19.220 and it absolutely hardens people's positions.

00:03:22.840 And in fact, probably triggers more people to say,

00:03:25.780 you know, what's going on?

00:03:26.880 Is this really a public health crisis or is there something else going on?

00:03:30.500 So it's not just a benefit to do it that way.

00:03:33.420 One comment the judge made at the hearing that stood out was that

00:03:37.860 Pastor Hildebrand has positioned himself as,

00:03:40.720 and I'm quoting directly here,

00:03:41.860 the face of the resistance in a way.

00:03:44.480 And then he went on to say,

00:03:45.500 there are consequences that must flow from that.

00:03:48.000 And that to me seems to reinforce what you've said in court in the past,

00:03:51.840 which is that the government does really seem to be targeting this particular church.

00:03:56.980 I mean, we've learned of rallies that have been taking place elsewhere

00:04:00.080 for any number of causes that have not raised the ire of the state,

00:04:03.320 but they are continuing or have been up until this week

00:04:06.380 to really devote a disproportionate amount of energy

00:04:09.760 on this particular church and this particular pastor.

00:04:13.260 Well, it certainly seems that way.

00:04:14.920 And certainly to him, you know,

00:04:16.900 there have been other rallies, as you know,

00:04:19.840 and in the affidavit that I had quickly scrambled to put together

00:04:23.100 at the last minute before the hearing when they first,

00:04:26.280 the government had brought this, we talked about this in your last show,

00:04:29.180 the government had brought a motion the morning of the court date

00:04:33.760 that we were supposed to respond to.

00:04:35.340 So I had thrown together an affidavit that had some articles

00:04:38.580 about the recent Palestinian protests.

00:04:41.340 And of course, those aren't subject to court order,

00:04:43.320 but the reason they're not subject to court order

00:04:44.920 is because nobody's bothered to ticket them

00:04:46.580 and take them to that level of enforcement.

00:04:50.180 But they have done that with a couple of the churches.

00:04:52.140 And so I've been told,

00:04:54.580 and so I didn't raise them in my submissions today,

00:04:57.040 but, you know, the judge isn't interested in hearing

00:04:59.940 about, you know, what's going on with other protests.

00:05:04.240 We're focusing on this church.

00:05:05.700 Did they violate the court order?

00:05:08.000 And the answer is yes.

00:05:09.420 And so really, you know,

00:05:10.640 the arguments that I can make in this context

00:05:12.500 are extremely limited, and they were,

00:05:14.940 because really it's kind of an open and shut case.

00:05:18.620 There's an order, they knew about it,

00:05:19.940 they breached it, we're done.

00:05:22.140 But I think that is relevant.

00:05:24.260 And I think it's relevant to the broader question

00:05:25.980 of if we're trying to protect,

00:05:27.500 preserve the judicial integrity,

00:05:30.780 the judicial system's integrity,

00:05:32.840 the rule of law,

00:05:34.080 we can't have certain rules applying to some people

00:05:37.740 and not to others,

00:05:38.600 because the people who are being targeted

00:05:41.080 are of course going to take the position

00:05:42.620 that they're being particularly singled out,

00:05:44.760 that they're being oppressed by it.

00:05:45.920 So it is important in a system

00:05:48.300 that is grounded on the rule of law

00:05:50.140 that there be equality of treatment.

00:05:52.280 Now, I'm not saying that there should be fines

00:05:53.840 for the people who are attending

00:05:55.100 the Palestinian protest.

00:05:57.140 They're entitled to protest.

00:05:58.500 They have a good cause, perhaps,

00:06:00.120 that they want to protest it in their view,

00:06:02.100 or not.

00:06:02.900 I mean, you know,

00:06:03.720 that's part of the living in a democracy.

00:06:05.740 People get to express,

00:06:07.180 through social protest, their views,

00:06:08.760 and whether you agree with them or not.

00:06:10.720 So, you know,

00:06:12.280 I'm all for them having the right to protest,

00:06:14.000 but there shouldn't be a double standard.

00:06:16.600 I think that's a very important point.

00:06:19.400 And looking forward here,

00:06:22.580 we know that the government

00:06:24.180 has had the doors of the church locked.

00:06:26.720 This is why, I mean,

00:06:27.860 the weather's getting nicer,

00:06:28.920 so it works out well

00:06:29.860 that if the church is very much passionate

00:06:32.680 and dedicated about having outdoor services,

00:06:34.720 it's a little bit more tenable now

00:06:36.340 than it would have been, say, in mid-January.

00:06:39.240 But long-term,

00:06:40.400 we're starting to see

00:06:41.720 some restrictions ease in Ontario,

00:06:44.080 and I say that with some reticence,

00:06:45.660 and it's a topic that we've covered

00:06:47.520 in different contexts on this show.

00:06:49.020 But suppose the restrictions lift

00:06:51.020 to such a point

00:06:52.000 that it would be viable and lawful

00:06:54.760 in the government's eyes

00:06:55.640 for the church to assemble inside.

00:06:57.340 Are those locks automatically going to come off?

00:07:00.180 Not automatically,

00:07:01.440 but if we get to the point

00:07:02.960 where we're allowed to have

00:07:04.020 at least 30% occupancy in the building,

00:07:06.580 we have a court-ordered right

00:07:08.240 to come back to court on two days' notice

00:07:10.300 in order to try and change the order,

00:07:13.360 and I expect that that would be granted.

00:07:15.120 I don't think that they want to be,

00:07:17.560 you know,

00:07:17.800 the judge doesn't want to be

00:07:18.940 unnecessarily punitive to the church.

00:07:21.660 They're not trying to keep them out forever,

00:07:23.900 but as we argued in a previous hearing,

00:07:26.980 when it was at 30%,

00:07:28.240 there really weren't enforcement issues,

00:07:30.060 and so that seems to be a good threshold

00:07:32.280 for allowing them to return inside their building.

00:07:34.900 But unfortunately,

00:07:35.960 you know,

00:07:36.100 the government hasn't really laid out

00:07:37.640 a framework that shows us

00:07:39.160 when this is going to be done

00:07:40.400 or whether it's ever going to be done,

00:07:41.840 and what's going to happen in the fall

00:07:43.100 is that, you know,

00:07:43.820 it's still very uncertain.

00:07:45.120 I mean,

00:07:45.260 I don't think we're through the woods

00:07:46.220 on all of this yet,

00:07:47.000 even if it does open a little bit this summer.

00:07:50.460 So I guess,

00:07:51.340 what is the next step here?

00:07:52.820 I mean,

00:07:53.180 are you,

00:07:53.740 I know you don't want to be

00:07:54.840 in the prediction game necessarily,

00:07:56.300 but from what you were saying

00:07:57.760 at the beginning of the interview,

00:07:58.780 that it seems like

00:08:00.060 some of the heat's coming off,

00:08:01.500 are you thinking

00:08:03.180 that this is going to continue,

00:08:04.900 this sort of,

00:08:05.840 you know,

00:08:06.500 lifting the foot off the gas pedal

00:08:08.460 such as it is

00:08:09.100 from an enforcement perspective?

00:08:11.160 Well,

00:08:11.620 I don't know for sure,

00:08:12.820 and I can't predict,

00:08:13.940 and I don't really want to predict.

00:08:15.160 As you say,

00:08:15.760 it is hard to know.

00:08:17.080 It seems like maybe

00:08:18.780 people all need a breather

00:08:20.580 all around.

00:08:21.320 We all recognize

00:08:22.120 that things are escalating

00:08:23.260 and it doesn't go anywhere good.

00:08:26.080 I mean,

00:08:26.660 from the church's perspective,

00:08:28.340 the more that people,

00:08:29.660 the more they're enforced against,

00:08:31.120 the more people come out.

00:08:32.100 So maybe it's to their benefit

00:08:33.960 on some strange level

00:08:35.420 that,

00:08:36.000 you know,

00:08:36.160 more people come out

00:08:36.900 and as Pastor Hildebrand

00:08:38.200 has said in his services,

00:08:39.700 you know,

00:08:40.220 they're coming

00:08:41.120 and they're,

00:08:41.700 you know,

00:08:42.160 finding Christ,

00:08:43.920 which is his job.

00:08:44.780 His job is,

00:08:45.540 as he sees it,

00:08:46.300 is to save souls,

00:08:47.180 right?

00:08:47.440 So the more people

00:08:48.940 who come out,

00:08:49.420 the better.

00:08:50.240 But from a general

00:08:51.760 societal perspective,

00:08:52.680 from the government's perspective,

00:08:54.120 it really doesn't benefit anybody

00:08:56.580 to keep the,

00:08:57.740 to keep us coming back

00:08:58.880 into court week

00:08:59.400 after week after week.

00:09:00.280 It probably,

00:09:01.100 it doesn't solve

00:09:01.640 the public health issue.

00:09:02.940 It doesn't protect

00:09:03.860 the integrity of the system,

00:09:05.380 particularly in my view,

00:09:06.760 others may disagree.

00:09:08.820 And, you know,

00:09:09.620 frankly,

00:09:09.900 it's a lot of work

00:09:10.720 to,

00:09:11.980 for the government too,

00:09:13.040 to keep having to,

00:09:13.920 to come back into court

00:09:14.900 with all these materials

00:09:15.920 and,

00:09:16.820 and the relationship

00:09:18.120 with the police also,

00:09:19.500 you know,

00:09:20.320 they're,

00:09:20.720 they're depending on the police

00:09:22.140 to go out to the church

00:09:23.180 every week

00:09:23.680 and to monitor

00:09:24.320 and to gather evidence.

00:09:25.360 you know,

00:09:26.420 the relationship

00:09:27.040 between the community

00:09:28.300 and the police

00:09:28.860 is one that is important

00:09:30.300 not to,

00:09:31.040 not to,

00:09:31.980 completely destroy.

00:09:34.180 I mean,

00:09:34.540 it takes a lot to,

00:09:36.320 to develop trust

00:09:37.480 in your police force.

00:09:38.500 You know,

00:09:38.680 these,

00:09:39.300 these are guys

00:09:39.780 walking around

00:09:40.440 with guns,

00:09:41.240 women too, 1.00

00:09:42.220 and they need

00:09:44.680 to earn the trust

00:09:45.700 of their community

00:09:46.300 that they police

00:09:47.160 and most of them

00:09:48.460 do that.

00:09:49.580 But when things get

00:09:50.620 to the point

00:09:51.040 where they've got drones

00:09:51.800 flying over the church

00:09:52.780 and it really feels

00:09:53.540 like it's very targeted,

00:09:54.920 those relationships

00:09:55.660 get very strained

00:09:56.680 and I think it probably

00:09:57.760 is good for everybody

00:09:58.540 just to take a deep breath,

00:10:00.020 settle down a little bit

00:10:01.080 and,

00:10:01.780 you know,

00:10:02.800 get back to just

00:10:03.760 trying to work together

00:10:05.680 a little bit more

00:10:06.560 constructively.

00:10:08.560 I know we talked

00:10:09.740 last time you were

00:10:10.560 on the show

00:10:10.980 about the bigger picture

00:10:12.000 aspect of this.

00:10:12.980 So the constitutional hearing

00:10:14.660 has been scheduled

00:10:15.460 for this church

00:10:16.480 and other churches

00:10:17.380 in one sort of

00:10:18.500 omnibus hearing

00:10:19.280 in October,

00:10:20.340 so still a considerable

00:10:21.460 period of time

00:10:22.580 between now.

00:10:23.940 When that time comes,

00:10:25.600 will it matter

00:10:26.520 if the Church of God

00:10:28.140 and other churches

00:10:29.040 in this action

00:10:29.740 can point to these services

00:10:30.960 they've been having

00:10:31.720 and say we haven't seen

00:10:33.280 an uptick in cases,

00:10:34.340 we haven't seen

00:10:35.100 any demonstrable

00:10:36.400 public health challenges

00:10:37.680 or outbreaks from this?

00:10:38.620 Is any of that

00:10:39.420 going to be relevant

00:10:40.420 when these are going

00:10:41.760 to a full hearing

00:10:42.820 on the merits?

00:10:44.380 Well,

00:10:44.860 I think they're

00:10:45.380 certainly relevant.

00:10:47.120 You know,

00:10:47.340 one of the reasons

00:10:47.900 why we've had

00:10:48.480 all these restrictions

00:10:49.140 is allegedly

00:10:49.880 to control

00:10:50.700 the spread of outbreaks.

00:10:52.100 And as we've learned

00:10:52.760 more about the science,

00:10:54.020 unfortunately,

00:10:55.040 the political measures

00:10:57.220 have not really kept pace

00:10:58.620 with what we've learned.

00:10:59.640 So,

00:10:59.920 for example,

00:11:00.860 there is good evidence now,

00:11:02.500 very solid evidence,

00:11:03.600 that asymptomatic spread

00:11:04.920 is really not a concern.

00:11:07.240 It's not something

00:11:08.480 in a meta-analysis

00:11:10.300 of 54 studies,

00:11:12.200 it was concluded.

00:11:13.400 And so that's

00:11:13.820 very good science,

00:11:14.640 by the way,

00:11:15.000 because when you

00:11:15.640 analyze 54 different studies,

00:11:18.400 you're effectively

00:11:19.220 getting rid of

00:11:20.080 any of the deficiencies

00:11:21.240 in any particular one.

00:11:22.740 And they were all

00:11:23.500 done on households

00:11:24.640 where you're getting rid

00:11:25.840 of a lot of the variables.

00:11:27.160 So in 54 studies

00:11:28.560 of household transmission,

00:11:30.500 asymptomatic spread

00:11:31.400 was found only to occur

00:11:32.740 0.7% of the time.

00:11:34.440 So 7 out of 1,000 times.

00:11:37.380 And so,

00:11:37.860 so many of these measures

00:11:38.860 that we have

00:11:39.560 are predicated

00:11:40.440 on there being,

00:11:42.020 you know,

00:11:42.360 we have to be fearful

00:11:43.380 of healthy people

00:11:44.160 because they may

00:11:45.140 unknowingly

00:11:46.080 be spreading the virus.

00:11:48.060 And the science

00:11:49.740 is evolving

00:11:50.580 to show us

00:11:51.100 that maybe

00:11:51.560 that is not so much

00:11:52.300 a concern.

00:11:53.160 And same thing

00:11:53.800 with outdoors.

00:11:54.860 You know,

00:11:55.140 the science

00:11:57.080 is also showing

00:11:58.460 that there's very little,

00:11:59.880 like maybe a percent

00:12:00.780 of spread

00:12:01.980 that can be attributed

00:12:02.700 to any outdoor gatherings.

00:12:03.840 So the fact

00:12:06.000 that the churches

00:12:06.860 have been largely,

00:12:08.880 you know,

00:12:09.100 they haven't contributed

00:12:10.020 to any spread

00:12:10.680 in their communities

00:12:11.340 that has been traced

00:12:12.660 to them,

00:12:13.640 I think it's going

00:12:14.860 to be very relevant

00:12:15.820 evidence.

00:12:16.880 And of course,

00:12:17.180 we'll have our expert

00:12:17.740 evidence as well

00:12:18.520 to bring all those

00:12:19.320 studies into court.

00:12:20.920 Good.

00:12:21.400 Yeah.

00:12:21.620 And look,

00:12:22.180 I mean,

00:12:22.380 I'm kind of a purist

00:12:24.060 on the constitutional grounds

00:12:25.360 in this sense

00:12:26.020 and saying,

00:12:26.800 listen,

00:12:27.100 freedom of religion,

00:12:27.900 freedom of assembly.

00:12:28.640 But when the government

00:12:29.820 has positioned everything

00:12:31.280 as being a part

00:12:32.520 of these reasonable limits

00:12:33.800 that we all know

00:12:34.740 tend to define

00:12:35.840 the constitutional freedoms,

00:12:37.280 it is very important

00:12:38.660 to be able to say

00:12:39.280 that those limits

00:12:39.820 are not grounded

00:12:40.440 in science.

00:12:41.020 And you're very right

00:12:42.000 that in Ontario

00:12:42.760 and other jurisdictions,

00:12:43.900 the more we've learned

00:12:45.480 about it,

00:12:46.140 at the same time,

00:12:47.140 restrictions also seem

00:12:48.320 to have gone

00:12:48.740 the other direction.

00:12:49.540 So I appreciate your work

00:12:51.300 on this.

00:12:51.700 Lisa Bildy from the

00:12:52.680 Justice Centre for

00:12:53.460 Constitutional Freedoms.

00:12:54.800 Always a pleasure.

00:12:55.940 Thanks for listening

00:12:56.580 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:12:58.120 Support the program

00:12:58.840 by donating to True North

00:13:00.060 at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 03, 2021

UPDATE： Court orders $66,000 more in fines against Aylmer’s Church of God

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