Juno News - June 03, 2021


UPDATE： Court orders $66,000 more in fines against Aylmer’s Church of God


Episode Stats

Length

13 minutes

Words per Minute

190.66953

Word Count

2,489

Sentence Count

103


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:09.980 Another day in Canada, which means still more attempts by government,
00:00:15.140 specifically in Ontario, to go after churches for wanting to assemble
00:00:19.600 as the Constitution guarantees and as their faiths have commanded them to for generations.
00:00:25.720 Most notably, we see this happening in Elmer, Ontario,
00:00:28.840 with the Church of God.
00:00:30.400 We've had the pastor there, Pastor Henry Hildebrandt, on the show in the past.
00:00:34.720 And this week, the Church of God was back in court again at the behest of the Ontario government,
00:00:40.900 trying to impose more penalties, more findings of contempt.
00:00:44.760 And the judge, after a relatively short hearing,
00:00:47.420 had actually imposed tens of thousands of dollars more in fines on the church and on its pastor.
00:00:53.940 Representing them has been Elisa Bildy, a lawyer with the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms,
00:00:58.840 Lisa, good to have you back. Thanks for coming on today.
00:01:01.420 Hi, Andrew. Thanks for having me.
00:01:03.260 So this was, I mean, as far as the long-standing back and forth we've seen on this case,
00:01:09.720 was there anything particularly unique about this hearing,
00:01:13.000 or was it just, you know, another round of fines?
00:01:15.180 Well, it was a little bit different in that it feels like things are maybe settling down a little bit.
00:01:23.360 And even though we were back in court on, you know, contempt proceedings,
00:01:26.780 which is this very serious matter,
00:01:28.580 the last time we did this,
00:01:30.980 the government made sure to tell the court all about all the transgressions
00:01:34.800 and, you know, right to the last minute,
00:01:37.540 telling about any other subsequent services that had happened since they had filed their motion.
00:01:41.420 They didn't do that this time.
00:01:43.380 And I thought that was interesting, and I noted it in court,
00:01:45.980 that basically when they had their service on May 16th,
00:01:50.660 which is what we were talking about in the contempt proceedings today,
00:01:54.760 they had 300 people in attendance.
00:01:57.500 And then there were two more services,
00:01:59.000 and there were more people in attendance.
00:02:00.620 And so it seems like, as a public health measure,
00:02:03.180 this isn't really working.
00:02:04.360 The more they come down hard on this church,
00:02:06.940 the more people want to turn up and show their support.
00:02:10.100 And so, you know, I think it's interesting that it felt a little bit more subdued this time.
00:02:15.240 And I do hope that, especially as we're moving into the summer
00:02:17.960 and things are starting to open up a little bit more, hopefully,
00:02:21.260 and more outdoor services are going to be permitted in the near future,
00:02:25.260 that the temperature will be turned down on all of this.
00:02:28.680 I know it came up at the hearing a week and a half ago,
00:02:32.140 which ultimately was the one that was adjourned to today.
00:02:34.740 And the judge had mentioned, you know, there's not much more that can be done.
00:02:38.640 We can keep putting these fines on,
00:02:40.240 but if the church is going to keep continuing to assemble
00:02:43.360 and having these services, which are now outdoor,
00:02:46.120 the government has limited means on this.
00:02:48.400 So in a lot of ways, is the government kind of conceding?
00:02:51.440 I know that was the judge that said that,
00:02:52.840 but is the government conceding that this is sort of just going to be this repetitive process?
00:02:57.920 And that might be why, as you've just said, it's losing a bit of steam?
00:03:02.500 Well, it could be this repetitive process,
00:03:04.240 but they also could escalate things and they could make this criminal contempt
00:03:09.160 and they could seek to have the pastor put in jail.
00:03:12.160 But I think probably most people recognize now,
00:03:15.660 and we've done this a few times in Alberta,
00:03:17.360 it doesn't necessarily solve the problem
00:03:19.220 and it absolutely hardens people's positions.
00:03:22.840 And in fact, probably triggers more people to say,
00:03:25.780 you know, what's going on?
00:03:26.880 Is this really a public health crisis or is there something else going on?
00:03:30.500 So it's not just a benefit to do it that way.
00:03:33.420 One comment the judge made at the hearing that stood out was that
00:03:37.860 Pastor Hildebrand has positioned himself as,
00:03:40.720 and I'm quoting directly here,
00:03:41.860 the face of the resistance in a way.
00:03:44.480 And then he went on to say,
00:03:45.500 there are consequences that must flow from that.
00:03:48.000 And that to me seems to reinforce what you've said in court in the past,
00:03:51.840 which is that the government does really seem to be targeting this particular church.
00:03:56.980 I mean, we've learned of rallies that have been taking place elsewhere
00:04:00.080 for any number of causes that have not raised the ire of the state,
00:04:03.320 but they are continuing or have been up until this week
00:04:06.380 to really devote a disproportionate amount of energy
00:04:09.760 on this particular church and this particular pastor.
00:04:13.260 Well, it certainly seems that way.
00:04:14.920 And certainly to him, you know,
00:04:16.900 there have been other rallies, as you know,
00:04:19.840 and in the affidavit that I had quickly scrambled to put together
00:04:23.100 at the last minute before the hearing when they first,
00:04:26.280 the government had brought this, we talked about this in your last show,
00:04:29.180 the government had brought a motion the morning of the court date
00:04:33.760 that we were supposed to respond to.
00:04:35.340 So I had thrown together an affidavit that had some articles
00:04:38.580 about the recent Palestinian protests.
00:04:41.340 And of course, those aren't subject to court order,
00:04:43.320 but the reason they're not subject to court order
00:04:44.920 is because nobody's bothered to ticket them
00:04:46.580 and take them to that level of enforcement.
00:04:50.180 But they have done that with a couple of the churches.
00:04:52.140 And so I've been told,
00:04:54.580 and so I didn't raise them in my submissions today,
00:04:57.040 but, you know, the judge isn't interested in hearing
00:04:59.940 about, you know, what's going on with other protests.
00:05:04.240 We're focusing on this church.
00:05:05.700 Did they violate the court order?
00:05:08.000 And the answer is yes.
00:05:09.420 And so really, you know,
00:05:10.640 the arguments that I can make in this context
00:05:12.500 are extremely limited, and they were,
00:05:14.940 because really it's kind of an open and shut case.
00:05:18.620 There's an order, they knew about it,
00:05:19.940 they breached it, we're done.
00:05:22.140 But I think that is relevant.
00:05:24.260 And I think it's relevant to the broader question
00:05:25.980 of if we're trying to protect,
00:05:27.500 preserve the judicial integrity,
00:05:30.780 the judicial system's integrity,
00:05:32.840 the rule of law,
00:05:34.080 we can't have certain rules applying to some people
00:05:37.740 and not to others,
00:05:38.600 because the people who are being targeted
00:05:41.080 are of course going to take the position
00:05:42.620 that they're being particularly singled out,
00:05:44.760 that they're being oppressed by it.
00:05:45.920 So it is important in a system
00:05:48.300 that is grounded on the rule of law
00:05:50.140 that there be equality of treatment.
00:05:52.280 Now, I'm not saying that there should be fines
00:05:53.840 for the people who are attending
00:05:55.100 the Palestinian protest.
00:05:57.140 They're entitled to protest.
00:05:58.500 They have a good cause, perhaps,
00:06:00.120 that they want to protest it in their view,
00:06:02.100 or not.
00:06:02.900 I mean, you know,
00:06:03.720 that's part of the living in a democracy.
00:06:05.740 People get to express,
00:06:07.180 through social protest, their views,
00:06:08.760 and whether you agree with them or not.
00:06:10.720 So, you know,
00:06:12.280 I'm all for them having the right to protest,
00:06:14.000 but there shouldn't be a double standard.
00:06:16.600 I think that's a very important point.
00:06:19.400 And looking forward here,
00:06:22.580 we know that the government
00:06:24.180 has had the doors of the church locked.
00:06:26.720 This is why, I mean,
00:06:27.860 the weather's getting nicer,
00:06:28.920 so it works out well
00:06:29.860 that if the church is very much passionate
00:06:32.680 and dedicated about having outdoor services,
00:06:34.720 it's a little bit more tenable now
00:06:36.340 than it would have been, say, in mid-January.
00:06:39.240 But long-term,
00:06:40.400 we're starting to see
00:06:41.720 some restrictions ease in Ontario,
00:06:44.080 and I say that with some reticence,
00:06:45.660 and it's a topic that we've covered
00:06:47.520 in different contexts on this show.
00:06:49.020 But suppose the restrictions lift
00:06:51.020 to such a point
00:06:52.000 that it would be viable and lawful
00:06:54.760 in the government's eyes
00:06:55.640 for the church to assemble inside.
00:06:57.340 Are those locks automatically going to come off?
00:07:00.180 Not automatically,
00:07:01.440 but if we get to the point
00:07:02.960 where we're allowed to have
00:07:04.020 at least 30% occupancy in the building,
00:07:06.580 we have a court-ordered right
00:07:08.240 to come back to court on two days' notice
00:07:10.300 in order to try and change the order,
00:07:13.360 and I expect that that would be granted.
00:07:15.120 I don't think that they want to be,
00:07:17.560 you know,
00:07:17.800 the judge doesn't want to be
00:07:18.940 unnecessarily punitive to the church.
00:07:21.660 They're not trying to keep them out forever,
00:07:23.900 but as we argued in a previous hearing,
00:07:26.980 when it was at 30%,
00:07:28.240 there really weren't enforcement issues,
00:07:30.060 and so that seems to be a good threshold
00:07:32.280 for allowing them to return inside their building.
00:07:34.900 But unfortunately,
00:07:35.960 you know,
00:07:36.100 the government hasn't really laid out
00:07:37.640 a framework that shows us
00:07:39.160 when this is going to be done
00:07:40.400 or whether it's ever going to be done,
00:07:41.840 and what's going to happen in the fall
00:07:43.100 is that, you know,
00:07:43.820 it's still very uncertain.
00:07:45.120 I mean,
00:07:45.260 I don't think we're through the woods
00:07:46.220 on all of this yet,
00:07:47.000 even if it does open a little bit this summer.
00:07:50.460 So I guess,
00:07:51.340 what is the next step here?
00:07:52.820 I mean,
00:07:53.180 are you,
00:07:53.740 I know you don't want to be
00:07:54.840 in the prediction game necessarily,
00:07:56.300 but from what you were saying
00:07:57.760 at the beginning of the interview,
00:07:58.780 that it seems like
00:08:00.060 some of the heat's coming off,
00:08:01.500 are you thinking
00:08:03.180 that this is going to continue,
00:08:04.900 this sort of,
00:08:05.840 you know,
00:08:06.500 lifting the foot off the gas pedal
00:08:08.460 such as it is
00:08:09.100 from an enforcement perspective?
00:08:11.160 Well,
00:08:11.620 I don't know for sure,
00:08:12.820 and I can't predict,
00:08:13.940 and I don't really want to predict.
00:08:15.160 As you say,
00:08:15.760 it is hard to know.
00:08:17.080 It seems like maybe
00:08:18.780 people all need a breather
00:08:20.580 all around.
00:08:21.320 We all recognize
00:08:22.120 that things are escalating
00:08:23.260 and it doesn't go anywhere good.
00:08:26.080 I mean,
00:08:26.660 from the church's perspective,
00:08:28.340 the more that people,
00:08:29.660 the more they're enforced against,
00:08:31.120 the more people come out.
00:08:32.100 So maybe it's to their benefit
00:08:33.960 on some strange level
00:08:35.420 that,
00:08:36.000 you know,
00:08:36.160 more people come out
00:08:36.900 and as Pastor Hildebrand
00:08:38.200 has said in his services,
00:08:39.700 you know,
00:08:40.220 they're coming
00:08:41.120 and they're,
00:08:41.700 you know,
00:08:42.160 finding Christ,
00:08:43.920 which is his job.
00:08:44.780 His job is,
00:08:45.540 as he sees it,
00:08:46.300 is to save souls,
00:08:47.180 right?
00:08:47.440 So the more people
00:08:48.940 who come out,
00:08:49.420 the better.
00:08:50.240 But from a general
00:08:51.760 societal perspective,
00:08:52.680 from the government's perspective,
00:08:54.120 it really doesn't benefit anybody
00:08:56.580 to keep the,
00:08:57.740 to keep us coming back
00:08:58.880 into court week
00:08:59.400 after week after week.
00:09:00.280 It probably,
00:09:01.100 it doesn't solve
00:09:01.640 the public health issue.
00:09:02.940 It doesn't protect
00:09:03.860 the integrity of the system,
00:09:05.380 particularly in my view,
00:09:06.760 others may disagree.
00:09:08.820 And, you know,
00:09:09.620 frankly,
00:09:09.900 it's a lot of work
00:09:10.720 to,
00:09:11.980 for the government too,
00:09:13.040 to keep having to,
00:09:13.920 to come back into court
00:09:14.900 with all these materials
00:09:15.920 and,
00:09:16.820 and the relationship
00:09:18.120 with the police also,
00:09:19.500 you know,
00:09:20.320 they're,
00:09:20.720 they're depending on the police
00:09:22.140 to go out to the church
00:09:23.180 every week
00:09:23.680 and to monitor
00:09:24.320 and to gather evidence.
00:09:25.360 you know,
00:09:26.420 the relationship
00:09:27.040 between the community
00:09:28.300 and the police
00:09:28.860 is one that is important
00:09:30.300 not to,
00:09:31.040 not to,
00:09:31.980 completely destroy.
00:09:34.180 I mean,
00:09:34.540 it takes a lot to,
00:09:36.320 to develop trust
00:09:37.480 in your police force.
00:09:38.500 You know,
00:09:38.680 these,
00:09:39.300 these are guys
00:09:39.780 walking around
00:09:40.440 with guns,
00:09:41.240 women too,
00:09:42.220 and they need
00:09:44.680 to earn the trust
00:09:45.700 of their community
00:09:46.300 that they police
00:09:47.160 and most of them
00:09:48.460 do that.
00:09:49.580 But when things get
00:09:50.620 to the point
00:09:51.040 where they've got drones
00:09:51.800 flying over the church
00:09:52.780 and it really feels
00:09:53.540 like it's very targeted,
00:09:54.920 those relationships
00:09:55.660 get very strained
00:09:56.680 and I think it probably
00:09:57.760 is good for everybody
00:09:58.540 just to take a deep breath,
00:10:00.020 settle down a little bit
00:10:01.080 and,
00:10:01.780 you know,
00:10:02.800 get back to just
00:10:03.760 trying to work together
00:10:05.680 a little bit more
00:10:06.560 constructively.
00:10:08.560 I know we talked
00:10:09.740 last time you were
00:10:10.560 on the show
00:10:10.980 about the bigger picture
00:10:12.000 aspect of this.
00:10:12.980 So the constitutional hearing
00:10:14.660 has been scheduled
00:10:15.460 for this church
00:10:16.480 and other churches
00:10:17.380 in one sort of
00:10:18.500 omnibus hearing
00:10:19.280 in October,
00:10:20.340 so still a considerable
00:10:21.460 period of time
00:10:22.580 between now.
00:10:23.940 When that time comes,
00:10:25.600 will it matter
00:10:26.520 if the Church of God
00:10:28.140 and other churches
00:10:29.040 in this action
00:10:29.740 can point to these services
00:10:30.960 they've been having
00:10:31.720 and say we haven't seen
00:10:33.280 an uptick in cases,
00:10:34.340 we haven't seen
00:10:35.100 any demonstrable
00:10:36.400 public health challenges
00:10:37.680 or outbreaks from this?
00:10:38.620 Is any of that
00:10:39.420 going to be relevant
00:10:40.420 when these are going
00:10:41.760 to a full hearing
00:10:42.820 on the merits?
00:10:44.380 Well,
00:10:44.860 I think they're
00:10:45.380 certainly relevant.
00:10:47.120 You know,
00:10:47.340 one of the reasons
00:10:47.900 why we've had
00:10:48.480 all these restrictions
00:10:49.140 is allegedly
00:10:49.880 to control
00:10:50.700 the spread of outbreaks.
00:10:52.100 And as we've learned
00:10:52.760 more about the science,
00:10:54.020 unfortunately,
00:10:55.040 the political measures
00:10:57.220 have not really kept pace
00:10:58.620 with what we've learned.
00:10:59.640 So,
00:10:59.920 for example,
00:11:00.860 there is good evidence now,
00:11:02.500 very solid evidence,
00:11:03.600 that asymptomatic spread
00:11:04.920 is really not a concern.
00:11:07.240 It's not something
00:11:08.480 in a meta-analysis
00:11:10.300 of 54 studies,
00:11:12.200 it was concluded.
00:11:13.400 And so that's
00:11:13.820 very good science,
00:11:14.640 by the way,
00:11:15.000 because when you
00:11:15.640 analyze 54 different studies,
00:11:18.400 you're effectively
00:11:19.220 getting rid of
00:11:20.080 any of the deficiencies
00:11:21.240 in any particular one.
00:11:22.740 And they were all
00:11:23.500 done on households
00:11:24.640 where you're getting rid
00:11:25.840 of a lot of the variables.
00:11:27.160 So in 54 studies
00:11:28.560 of household transmission,
00:11:30.500 asymptomatic spread
00:11:31.400 was found only to occur
00:11:32.740 0.7% of the time.
00:11:34.440 So 7 out of 1,000 times.
00:11:37.380 And so,
00:11:37.860 so many of these measures
00:11:38.860 that we have
00:11:39.560 are predicated
00:11:40.440 on there being,
00:11:42.020 you know,
00:11:42.360 we have to be fearful
00:11:43.380 of healthy people
00:11:44.160 because they may
00:11:45.140 unknowingly
00:11:46.080 be spreading the virus.
00:11:48.060 And the science
00:11:49.740 is evolving
00:11:50.580 to show us
00:11:51.100 that maybe
00:11:51.560 that is not so much
00:11:52.300 a concern.
00:11:53.160 And same thing
00:11:53.800 with outdoors.
00:11:54.860 You know,
00:11:55.140 the science
00:11:57.080 is also showing
00:11:58.460 that there's very little,
00:11:59.880 like maybe a percent
00:12:00.780 of spread
00:12:01.980 that can be attributed
00:12:02.700 to any outdoor gatherings.
00:12:03.840 So the fact
00:12:06.000 that the churches
00:12:06.860 have been largely,
00:12:08.880 you know,
00:12:09.100 they haven't contributed
00:12:10.020 to any spread
00:12:10.680 in their communities
00:12:11.340 that has been traced
00:12:12.660 to them,
00:12:13.640 I think it's going
00:12:14.860 to be very relevant
00:12:15.820 evidence.
00:12:16.880 And of course,
00:12:17.180 we'll have our expert
00:12:17.740 evidence as well
00:12:18.520 to bring all those
00:12:19.320 studies into court.
00:12:20.920 Good.
00:12:21.400 Yeah.
00:12:21.620 And look,
00:12:22.180 I mean,
00:12:22.380 I'm kind of a purist
00:12:24.060 on the constitutional grounds
00:12:25.360 in this sense
00:12:26.020 and saying,
00:12:26.800 listen,
00:12:27.100 freedom of religion,
00:12:27.900 freedom of assembly.
00:12:28.640 But when the government
00:12:29.820 has positioned everything
00:12:31.280 as being a part
00:12:32.520 of these reasonable limits
00:12:33.800 that we all know
00:12:34.740 tend to define
00:12:35.840 the constitutional freedoms,
00:12:37.280 it is very important
00:12:38.660 to be able to say
00:12:39.280 that those limits
00:12:39.820 are not grounded
00:12:40.440 in science.
00:12:41.020 And you're very right
00:12:42.000 that in Ontario
00:12:42.760 and other jurisdictions,
00:12:43.900 the more we've learned
00:12:45.480 about it,
00:12:46.140 at the same time,
00:12:47.140 restrictions also seem
00:12:48.320 to have gone
00:12:48.740 the other direction.
00:12:49.540 So I appreciate your work
00:12:51.300 on this.
00:12:51.700 Lisa Bildy from the
00:12:52.680 Justice Centre for
00:12:53.460 Constitutional Freedoms.
00:12:54.800 Always a pleasure.
00:12:55.940 Thanks for listening
00:12:56.580 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:12:58.120 Support the program
00:12:58.840 by donating to True North
00:13:00.060 at www.tnc.news.