Juno News - Veteran protests takedown of John A Macdonald statue

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:13.240 We have been speaking at great length over recent weeks about the taking down of statues,

00:00:19.660 the vandalizing of statues, the denaming of buildings, schools, anything and everything

00:00:25.980 that is named after or honors a person in history seems to be fair game.

00:00:31.420 People whose greatest sin, perhaps their only sin, is living in an era that is not the current

00:00:36.000 one are finding themselves canceled posthumously by the mob.

00:00:41.460 The one of these that has always disturbed me more than the others is John A. Macdonald.

00:00:46.260 I've talked about him at great length.

00:00:48.040 He's a man for whom history has, I think, a very favorable legacy and a very positive

00:00:53.440 legacy, whatever the differences are between the 19th century and the 21st century.

00:00:59.360 John A. Macdonald was a beacon of progress and he held confederation together against the

00:01:04.860 odds and the Canada we have today is in no small part due to his efforts back in the 1860s

00:01:12.360 and beyond.

00:01:13.480 And when John A. Macdonald is targeted by the mob, it is particularly disingenuous that a

00:01:20.080 country that affords people the right to speak their mind was founded by the guy they're

00:01:24.640 speaking their mind to criticize.

00:01:27.180 And there was a display on the weekend in Kingston on Friday morning in which the city took down

00:01:33.660 the statue of John A. Macdonald, not just the former Prime Minister of Canada, but also

00:01:38.960 a former member of Parliament for Kingston.

00:01:41.000 And in the face of this, two men stood out, men who served this country wearing some military

00:01:47.900 insignia, holding Canadian flags, taking a stand for John A. Macdonald at his feet.

00:01:53.860 A minority display in Canada, given the landscape of these things, but one that stands out all

00:01:59.420 the more.

00:02:00.440 One of these men, Gordon Olke, is a town councillor in nearby Leeds and Thousand Islands.

00:02:05.780 He joins me now.

00:02:07.420 Gordon, it's good to talk to you.

00:02:08.460 Thanks for coming on today.

00:02:09.480 Thank you.

00:02:11.100 So why did you decide to put on your old uniform, carry the flag and stand at Sir John A.

00:02:17.620 Macdonald's feet the way you did?

00:02:19.440 Well, let me be clear about my order of dress.

00:02:23.100 It's not a uniform because I retired from the army in 2013.

00:02:28.140 I'm no longer entitled to wear a Canadian army uniform, but there are certain standards we

00:02:33.460 are, as veterans, encouraged to wear at various times, which is your old regimental beret with

00:02:40.380 cap badge, the decorations you were awarded for service.

00:02:43.740 And that's really the only guideline.

00:02:46.800 So I stood as someone who was a soldier at one time.

00:02:51.760 And to answer your other question, my friend and I just thought we should do something.

00:03:00.840 We thought we should stand and defend Sir John in some way and defend our own heritage in some

00:03:07.440 way.

00:03:07.680 I'm not denying that there was anything that should not be corrected, that there were not

00:03:13.820 issues that needed to be addressed.

00:03:16.100 But I don't think one should throw the baby out with the bathwater all the time, which seems

00:03:19.860 to be the trend.

00:03:20.540 It's worth noting that Sir John does not only have a significant place in the history of

00:03:27.280 Canada, but in Kingston specifically.

00:03:30.480 In Kingston, he's a local hero as much as he is a national hero.

00:03:34.420 And again, all of that seems insignificant to these people petitioning to have these sorts

00:03:38.500 of statues taken down.

00:03:41.920 Well, I think there's been a failure in this country in the teaching of history.

00:03:46.820 I'm not sure they teach any history anymore.

00:03:49.140 I'm old enough to remember the grade 13 history I took, which was essentially European history,

00:03:55.560 which taught me a lot of things which have stood me in very good stead in my career, where

00:04:01.160 I went around the world and dealt with other cultures.

00:04:03.860 And we took quite, in those days, quite comprehensive history in terms of the sense of development

00:04:10.780 of constitutions and the progress of society, you know, from the Dark Ages or from the Classical

00:04:15.960 Era up to our present time.

00:04:17.660 That all seems to have gone, and people follow slogans and fads now and become very emotional

00:04:23.420 about things that are represented to them out of context.

00:04:27.460 And that seems to be a big problem in our society, which I'm not sure how they're going

00:04:31.060 to address.

00:04:32.320 A lot of the thrust behind this has been ostensibly, or at least purportedly, under the auspices

00:04:39.160 of reconciliation, but there isn't really any reconciliation taking place when people go after statues.

00:04:47.220 And you had said, when we were corresponding earlier and setting this up, that it's an

00:04:51.300 inanimate object.

00:04:52.280 No one's interests are served by its removal.

00:04:54.560 Well, what I heard around me in the crowd, I was taunted.

00:05:03.560 I was shadowed.

00:05:04.560 I heard things like, we've just started, watch and see what we do next.

00:05:11.740 This is just the beginning.

00:05:13.460 I heard one woman speaking on a cell phone.

00:05:15.860 I didn't hear the other end of the conversation, of course.

00:05:18.860 And it may just have been emotional blather of the moment.

00:05:21.500 But I heard this woman speaking on the cell phone, we should take that plaque they're taking 1.00

00:05:26.340 down now and put it on Sir John A's costume, or McDonald's coffin, sorry, coffin.

00:05:33.440 Now, my family happens to be buried five generations within about 40 meters of where Sir John is buried.

00:05:40.240 And I'm wondering about future vandalism, future desecration.

00:05:45.360 There was that one flash of someone, someone momentarily, even if they weren't serious,

00:05:50.900 did entertain the idea of desecrating McDonald's burial site.

00:05:57.560 But I was confronted by a young woman who had a coterie of people around her, about four 0.96

00:06:06.140 or five people around her.

00:06:07.560 And she was very in my face.

00:06:10.100 And she tried to say I was muddled.

00:06:13.960 And obviously, I'm an older man.

00:06:15.780 She tried to say I was muddled.

00:06:17.200 And it was one of those social justice warrior types.

00:06:20.400 No matter what you say, it's because of your male-white privilege and all this kind of stuff.

00:06:26.360 You don't understand.

00:06:27.180 You can't understand.

00:06:29.660 And she became rather shrill.

00:06:32.220 And then a police constable came to intervene.

00:06:36.240 And the police constable, a female, told her, you know, this is enough for now.

00:06:40.740 You need to back away from this gentleman.

00:06:43.240 I intervened with the police constable.

00:06:44.820 I said, no, that's fine.

00:06:45.920 I would like to hear what she has to say.

00:06:47.440 And she seems to need to have to say something to me.

00:06:49.880 And the constable left.

00:06:51.040 And so the lady went on. 1.00

00:06:52.620 And eventually, she used the word white supremacist at me. 0.61

00:06:59.520 And then she tried to back away from it.

00:07:01.460 But I have the friend who stood with me on the monument actually heard it and said, no, no.

00:07:10.220 Both Gordon and I are trained listeners in our former professions.

00:07:13.560 And we heard you.

00:07:14.640 I heard her.

00:07:15.760 And one of her friends who was with her backed off and said, well, I heard white supreme, but I didn't hear the ending.

00:07:21.100 And so she and her friends recoiled very quickly after that.

00:07:27.060 But there were things like that going on.

00:07:29.460 But, I mean, that speaks to the level of polarization that has been injected into this, undeservingly so.

00:07:36.380 That you standing up for a Canadian hero, a Canadian historic figure at the very least, at all ends up in the same breath as white supremacy.

00:07:46.080 I mean, backtracking or not, that that is even part of the discussion now.

00:07:50.280 And that I would say that's probably not a rarity in this, is a sign of just, I think, how devoid of sense and historic knowledge a lot of these people that are leading the charge on this really are.

00:08:02.460 I'm not sure what's actually behind it.

00:08:04.800 The thing, I think the thing that disturbed me the most is my sense that the council was intimidated.

00:08:13.200 There was a lot of couching of threats behind some of the presentations in that, you know, the people around the monument now are actually protecting it.

00:08:25.480 The sense was, if you don't do what we want, another gang will turn up and there'll be violence and they'll take it down.

00:08:31.780 And I've just sent, I've sent you some documents, perhaps you've just seen them, where you can see this reflected in what city staff and councillors reacted to.

00:08:42.160 So I'm wondering, you know, you had, and there was a recent, there was a local poll taken and about 92% of the people responded.

00:08:48.540 And we're in favour of keeping the statue, perhaps with some embellishments in terms of contextualising history and artwork and things.

00:08:59.620 But the majority of people around here would seem to want to keep the statue.

00:09:03.540 I want to ask about your military service, if I can, Gordon, because when you stand out there and are representing yourself as a veteran,

00:09:13.280 you are someone that has done more to stand up for Canada and Canadian values, I would argue,

00:09:19.540 than a lot of the people that seem to be behind this push to take down the name of John A. Macdonald and take down his statues.

00:09:26.900 And I was wondering just how you'd respond to that.

00:09:29.640 And I know that a lot of people that I've spoken to who have service backgrounds are very humble about it.

00:09:35.420 But at the same time, you've done more, I think, to stand up for Canada and Canadian values than a lot of these people that were cheering for the statue's removal.

00:09:47.020 Well, the first thing I would say is that they have every right to do that.

00:09:52.800 And as a soldier, it was part of my duties to defend their right to do that.

00:09:59.640 I don't happen to agree with what they're doing, but they have the right to do it.

00:10:05.140 And members of the forces are sworn to protect that right.

00:10:10.620 So in that regard, I don't mind that they were doing what they were doing.

00:10:16.700 I mind that city council appeared to have loaded their special working group with people who would be negative

00:10:26.340 and that they took a coward's way out.

00:10:29.840 I think city council should have gone with the first option they had, which was to keep the statue

00:10:34.040 in its place, perhaps modify the pedestal somewhat.

00:10:38.400 That would be subject to negotiation.

00:10:39.900 And then add thematic items to give it context and to show respect for the other culture that seems to be stressed.

00:10:51.860 And then there was the other option of taking it down and just stashing it away and whatever.

00:10:57.000 They came up with a third option, which was essentially the second option with a few frills.

00:11:02.400 It was a kind of a sneaky way to show that they were catering to the people like me who wanted to keep the statue,

00:11:11.360 but they really had no intention of doing it.

00:11:14.780 And I think it's a giving way to fear.

00:11:17.600 Wherever they would try to put it up again, whether in its original place or someplace else,

00:11:23.580 the same sort of encampment would occur probably.

00:11:26.060 And I think they're afraid of that.

00:11:29.060 And then they were afraid, I think, of the veiled threat that if we didn't do what this group wanted,

00:11:35.140 another group, much less friendly, would turn up and take it into their own hands.

00:11:39.760 Well, I also sent an email to the mayor asking for a refund of my taxes for the amount that was paid to the city police.

00:11:47.740 If they're not there to protect me, what do we have them for?

00:11:50.620 Or city property?

00:11:52.080 Yeah, and the city is no better than so many of the vandals who have gone around destroying and defacing these statues.

00:11:59.940 The difference is that the city has, of course, the backing of being a government when it does this.

00:12:05.060 But the result of it is the same, which is that a statue that has been there for years,

00:12:09.680 taken away because of what I would probably say is a minority view among Canadians.

00:12:16.860 I agree with you.

00:12:18.360 The other thing about that statue, and this is fairly personal and really far removed from my military service,

00:12:24.720 which is what you started to ask me about.

00:12:27.640 When I was small, about three and a half, four, my family was from Kingston.

00:12:32.200 My parents had me there visiting older relatives.

00:12:35.200 And I asked my parents, who was the man standing on the wall with all the cannons?

00:12:40.140 And they explained to me who Sir John A. MacDonald was.

00:12:42.700 And my military career took me all over the world and frequently back to Kingston.

00:12:47.300 But wherever I was, that was a landmark to me.

00:12:49.920 That statue meant something to me.

00:12:52.300 Now, my great-grandfather was a businessman in Kingston at the time that statue was put up.

00:12:57.160 And, you know, a lot of people donated a dollar, and people think that's nothing nowadays,

00:13:05.080 but a dollar was the average man's daily wage in 1895.

00:13:12.100 And I believe that statue was raised by public subscription.

00:13:15.220 So there's a sentiment there that ties back to my family, and I'm sure many other people, in Kingston itself.

00:13:24.560 And for that reason, I thought I should stand in front of it, as well as, you know, my own ideology, I suppose.

00:13:31.500 What's been the response since then?

00:13:34.540 Because I've had a number of people since, I think it was the Canadian Press took a photo of you and your friend there standing with your flags and your berets.

00:13:43.120 I've had a number of people send this, knowing I've been covering this.

00:13:46.140 And I'm curious what you found in the way of response to this, if anything.

00:13:51.440 Similar. Similar responses.

00:13:53.540 I don't use Twitter, but, you know, I can see it on my email.

00:14:00.460 And one of the journalists put up a presentation on it, and there was a lot of responses to it.

00:14:07.720 One person accused us of being false veterans because we weren't old enough to be in World War II or Korea.

00:14:13.620 Well, that's true.

00:14:16.300 But I did serve in Bosnia and Afghanistan.

00:14:18.960 My friend never made any pretense of that.

00:14:21.240 He was a reservist in the 1970s, but maintains an interest in contact with his old regiment.

00:14:28.700 So he had his beret and blazer and blazer crest.

00:14:32.620 But the response was actually quite heartwarming, really, overall.

00:14:41.280 And, you know, my friends, of course, but many, many people I didn't know had responded to the journalist's tweet.

00:14:50.140 And it was very, very heartwarming, really.

00:14:53.940 I didn't feel I was alone, put it that way.

00:14:57.760 Well, you certainly won't.

00:14:59.500 And I must say, however you would characterize your display, I never would have thought that standing with a Canadian flag in front of a statue of Canada's first prime minister would be an act of protest in a way.

00:15:11.640 But here we are.

00:15:12.300 And that's in and of itself quite a dark development in this country.

00:15:16.980 Well, I hope the next time someone tries to do that, that other people stand in front of that statue, wherever it is, and actually force a government to change.

00:15:31.040 If we have to do the same tactics to preserve our nation, that people who seem keen to disestablish our nation are using, well, maybe we should.

00:15:42.200 If that's polarizing, well, I think we're already polarized.

00:15:46.540 And I think if there is an average Canadian, they're probably reticent, they're probably very polite, they're probably hardworking, they're probably more worried about their family at any one time than anything else.

00:16:01.120 And, you know, when you have something like this, I believe, I believe that the crowd around that was opposed to the statue wanted it down.

00:16:14.520 I believe a lot of that was financed by the CERB, quite frankly.

00:16:18.680 And, well, there you go, you see, it was also timed on a date and time when most people were getting ready for work, if not on their way to work.

00:16:30.120 If they tried to pull it down on a Saturday or Sunday, there might have been a different story.

00:16:36.420 Very well said.

00:16:37.360 Well, I appreciate you taking a stand, and also I greatly appreciate your service for this country.

00:16:42.640 Gordon Olke, thank you very much for joining me.

00:16:44.880 Thank you.

00:16:45.760 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:47.760 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 27, 2021

Veteran protests takedown of John A Macdonald statue

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