00:00:00.000Hello, sir. My name is Brennan Miller. I'm counsel for the Convoy or Freedom Corp, which is an entity that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa on January and February of 2022.
00:00:17.860I just have a few questions for you. First, again, thank you for your service and thank you very much for your forthright testimony earlier.
00:00:25.540Sure. Just on something you spoke about in your evidence in chief, you spoke about the demand of protesters and those demands would simply not be met.
00:00:35.580I take it that by that you mean the demand for the removal of vaccine or COVID mandates. Is that correct?
00:00:42.900In the main, yes, there were a multitude of demands, but those were some significant ones.
00:00:47.500And for the federal government to drop some of their regulations and mandates, and we didn't feel that would be met. Yes.
00:00:53.620Yes. Right. And these questions are going to be, you're going to be able to know exactly where I'm going, so I'm just going to be blunt.
00:01:03.840You didn't see any evidence in the intelligence of espionage or in support of espionage. Is that correct?
00:01:18.300You didn't see anything in the evidence, any evidence in the intelligence of any form of foreign-influenced activities within or relating to Canada that involved the threat to any person?
00:01:32.780I saw no information collected or intelligence produced in that regard. No. To support that. No.
00:01:38.820Now, for my following question, when I say serious violence against a person, you'll understand I mean violence that would result in serious personal injury.
00:01:49.860You didn't see any evidence in the intelligence of activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat of a use of acts of serious violence against persons for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state.
00:02:10.140So, yes, I know where you're going, and I want it to be fair to my colleagues in planning.
00:02:16.280I saw online rhetoric. I saw information on social media. I saw assertions of that type of activity. Information.
00:02:27.480Information. I'm aware of no intelligence that was produced that would support concern in that regard.
00:02:37.080And now, for my next question, when I say serious violence against property, you'll understand I mean violence against property of the nature such as arson or destruction, a bomb, that sort of thing.
00:02:51.220You didn't see any evidence in the intelligence of activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat of use of acts of serious violence against property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state.
00:03:07.440So, again, not to be contradictory because I'm just trying to be fulsome.
00:03:11.720Our role is crime prevention, law enforcement, assistance to victims, public order, and emergency management.
00:03:19.900Therefore, in relation to the things you're discussing, we collected all the information, which some information asserted attempts at that.
00:03:28.880So, we did see that and had to consider that.
00:03:32.460Did we have any credible intelligence that that would occur? No.
00:04:01.560So, the word extremism does not have a description in law.
00:04:05.840Section 83 of the Criminal Code speaks to terrorist offenses, which possibly could be synonymous with extremism.
00:04:14.220Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Criminal Code speak to hate-motivated crimes, advocation of genocide, etc.
00:04:21.740Other sections of the Criminal Code, it's a section 430, speak to acts against religious property that could be deemed to be extremist.
00:04:31.040I have problems with the term because everyone has a subjective belief as to what extremism means.
00:04:41.920At the low end and banal end, it means someone I disagree with, and I find that problematic.
00:04:48.560As a working definition for myself, I utilize extremism, and I try to premise it in law by somebody who would advocate and utilize violence to achieve their goals.
00:05:06.040And they could be motivated politically, ideologically, religiously, etc.
00:05:10.740And I take it that, in practice, if the federal government's intelligence apparatus or law enforcement sees a legitimate, credible threat, as we just discussed, they would let you know about it, correct?
00:05:25.560I work, we work with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service on a daily basis.
00:05:33.500We have a provincial anti-terrorism section that is integrated with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
00:05:38.600We are integrated with the integrated national security enforcement team and have members on that.
00:05:43.600That is their threshold, and as you've cited, section part two of the CSIS Act in terms of the threats to Canada.
00:05:49.220I communicated with my colleagues in INSET in Ottawa, INSET in Toronto, CSIS in Toronto, CSIS in Ottawa.
00:05:58.740They participated in the hand-in calls.
00:06:02.600I believe that I would have been informed, and in terms of those delineations, I guess I'll know more at the end of these hearings,
00:06:08.580but I received no information in relation to the probability of that activity.
00:06:14.360Right, and of course, the intelligence apparatus in Canada, they're not technically law enforcement.
00:06:20.100They provide information, and it is the OPP and the RCMP and the Ottawa Police Service who would carry out any law enforcement aspects with respect to any threat domestically, correct?
00:06:33.380Yeah, the O'Connor Commission spoke to that in the URAR inquiry.
00:06:36.680CSIS collects, advises, retains for government security intelligence.
00:06:40.280We act on criminal intelligence and translate that into evidence for law enforcement action.
00:06:45.180Right, and the federal government would always tell you about these things because they don't want to have any Canadians and individuals harmed, right?
00:06:57.940I'm not trying to skirt your question.
00:06:59.340We have a great relationship with intelligence entities.
00:07:01.860I know that CSIS will present, as will the RCMP.
00:07:05.480We have a good relationship, and I believe that I would be informed.
00:07:08.320But I also believe that there would be instances where activity is occurring within that sphere that I may not be advised of because it may not be within my purview of the Police Services Act and criminal intelligence, international in scope, perhaps.
00:07:23.340To your knowledge, have you been advised by any of those actors that you have not been informed of everything?
00:07:32.320Have I been advised by those actors that I have not been informed of something?
00:07:39.040Now, dealing with the issue of lone wolf attackers, can you agree that the last lone wolf attack in the Capitol was on October 22, 2014, when Michael Zafbibu attacked Parliament with a firearm?
00:07:55.920I remember the events, and I would attribute that to what I refer to as an independent asymmetric threat.
00:08:04.780I don't want to say that that's the last event just because I don't want to misspeak.
00:08:08.680I am aware of other events, but they weren't that I'm aware of in the National Capital Region.
00:08:13.380Now, can you agree that following that attack, lessons were learned on how law enforcement intelligence agencies would gather intelligence with respect to lone wolf attackers?
00:08:23.460Yes, I believe that I believe that I believe that I believe that cooperation and collaboration was enhanced.
00:08:34.180And I will say this as a caveat, an independent asymmetric threat, a lone wolf, is the largest concern for somebody in a position such as mine or other people who appear before you,
00:08:49.020because we rely upon the collection of information to produce intelligence, and in the instance of an independent asymmetric threat, the circle of trust may be won.
00:09:01.020And that is a very difficult environment in which to succeed.
00:09:05.580Right. And those lessons that were learned from that attack, they were incorporated within the intelligence-gathering apparatus, both at the OPP and federally, correct?
00:09:15.080Yes, certainly. I mean, I can. That's an area where the age of social media can assist us, because in many examples of lone wolves, as you refer to, those are preceded by indicators of activity.
00:09:29.900So that is of assistance, and that is something that the Provincial Operations Intelligence Bureau engages in.
00:09:37.280Right. And a lone wolf attack does not need a protest in order to be carried out, does it?