What should Ontario conservatives do this election？
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Summary
Coming up, New Blue Party of Ontario leader Jim Carajalios joins the show to talk about the upcoming election, urban student debt, Canada's place in the world, and whether it can join the ranks of the great powers.
Transcript
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This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
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Coming up, new blue party of Ontario leader Jim Carajalios joins the show to talk about the upcoming election
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and also Urban Student talking about Canada's place in the world and whether it can join the legions of great powers.
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This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
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The Andrew Lawton Show, good to have you aboard the program here on Friday, May 20th, 2022.
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It is a long weekend. Hope you have great things planned, getting together with the family, having a barbecue, opening the cottage, whatever the case may be.
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And one thing that I want to bring up that I think is very important here, I am not here right now.
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This is not live. I am, as this comes out on a plane to Zurich, Switzerland, where, as I mentioned in the previous couple of shows,
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I am going to then rent a car and head on over through the Swiss Alps to Davos to cover the World Economic Forum's annual meeting.
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And this is something that I'm very much looking forward to.
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I've had people, literally, I've had people just come up and stop me and say,
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I hear you're going to Davos, good for you. I'm supporting you.
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Like I said, I make no promises about what coverage is going to look like.
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I do know, because the agenda came out, that Francois-Philippe Champagne, Canada's Industry and Innovation Minister,
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is going to be speaking about the jobs of tomorrow.
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Haven't yet seen any other Canadian cabinet ministers on the speaking agenda.
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But I know from past summits they've had, these things tend to change.
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And they morph over time as the event nears and even during the week.
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But I do want to just say thank you to all of you who have chipped in to support this.
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If you want to do so now, you can head on over to donate.tnc.news.
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It's not, I mean, we're doing our best to keep costs down.
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So we're doing this because we feel that there is a story here.
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And we want to get past the conspiracy theories and past the people that are just dismissive
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because they think any criticism is a conspiracy theory.
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And actually talk about, in their own words, what it is that they're doing.
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And how Canada has really tried to hitch itself to the so-called Davos agenda voluntarily.
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Again, we're not talking about puppet masters here.
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We're talking about an ideological framework that leaders like Justin Trudeau are all too
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We'll have lots of coverage of that in the days ahead and the next week as I am on the
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So thanks again to those who have supported that.
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I want to shift gears a little bit and do a follow-up to a discussion we had yesterday
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on the show with Derek Sloan, leader of the Ontario Party.
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And as I mentioned at the beginning of that show, originally what I wanted to do was have
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Derek Sloan as the leader of the Ontario Party and Jim Carajalios as leader of the New
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Because I've been fielding emails from a lot of conservatives, and I use that with a small
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C voters that don't know how to navigate having these two upstart parties that it seems like
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on the surface, and we'll dig into this in this discussion, are going after the same
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voters and talking about a lot of the same issues.
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And obviously the topic of unity between these two parties came up a lot in that interview.
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Derek Sloan made a number of accusations against the New Blue and against Jim Carajalios,
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which is why I wanted to have the two on at the same time.
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And then I had said during the show I was going to extend an invitation to Jim Carajalios
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It's unfortunate we haven't been on for a couple of years, but it's good to be back.
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Yeah, I mean, I've talked about a lot of the themes that you have been beating the
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When it comes to the lack of independence of MPPs, we had both you and Belinda on when
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the party was formed and when she was kicked out of caucus.
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But right now we're seeing a fracturing of the conservative movement more broadly here.
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And I want to be clear, I'm not talking about just the conservative party.
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But let's just begin for people that aren't as familiar.
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Is the New Blue trying to be a more conservative version of the PC party?
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Or is it trying to be a PC party without the negatives and the corruption you've identified
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Well, the PC party is not a conservative right of center party anymore.
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They've made it very clear with the budget they released before the election started.
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And just this week, like the last couple of days, Andrew, they're bragging about cutting
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We've got the labor bosses in our pockets.
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And the lobbyists online are bragging about it.
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They are now transformed into being the wing in Ontario of the Just and Trudeau Liberal Party
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And they've extended the legacy of the begin-to-win Liberals.
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Now, a lot of Ontario voters are just being made aware of this because a lot of people
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are busy working, taking their kids to school in the four years.
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And they check into politics like normal people when there's a campaign, not like us junkies
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who are following it probably a little too closely.
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But more and more, increasingly, people are noticing that the PC party holds their traditional
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base and their values and principles that they claim to have.
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When you ran, Andrew, in 2018 as a candidate, they have contempt for those values and principles.
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So it's not just about the corruption, but that's what unifies people behind the New
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Blue Party is the lack of integrity in the process, the fact that you can't speak up in
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a grassroots way and influence the process in the PC party.
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And there's no one else to go to vote for on June 2nd.
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And when Belinda got ejected and 19 of us got ejected from the Cambridge PC Riding Association,
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we formed the New Blue Party a year and a half ago.
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And in our first election, we got 124 names on 124 ballots across the province.
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You mentioned a few moments ago, I think, the painful point of politics, which is that
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the freaks that live in this world, like you and I and a lot of the people who tune into
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this show, are a lot more connected and engaged on these issues year round than the average
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voter, which touches on the point I made a couple of moments ago, that a lot of voters
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don't know how to navigate having multiple parties that are presenting themselves as conservative
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And when I reached out to your communications director, because I wanted to help the viewers
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sort this out, I was told, and you can correct me if this is representative of your view or
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not, that there was no interest in debating or discussing on a panel with Derek Sloan,
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because there was basically a refusal to accept that as a legitimate party.
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So how do we go from that to you wanting to respond to things that Derek Sloan is saying?
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We asked you to invite all the parties, because we're not running an election campaign against
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Derek Sloan and the fraudulent things that he says, and he has said for months.
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We're running against the PCs, the NDP, the Liberals and the Greens.
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And Derek Sloan decided four months ago, he wanted to run candidates against the new Blue
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That's not what we've been doing on social media for two years, on our radio ads, on
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We're running against the establishment parties.
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Ask Andrew to reach out to the establishment parties and set up an all-candidates meeting.
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And if the Ontario party is invited, we'll do that.
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Some of our candidates have been invited locally to all-candidates meetings, and some Ontario
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Now, when it comes to Derek Sloan, Derek Sloan's a fraud.
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Derek Sloan's claim to fame in 2020 was that he achieved $300,000 in donations to be on
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the ballot of the Conservative Party candidate.
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No one knew who Derek Sloan was, except for people locally in his riding before then.
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And he just submitted his financial return to elections candidate.
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He made false allegations on your show that I've brought up his financial record.
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But since he's brought it up and made false allegations against me, let's go deep dive into
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You know that he never raised the $300,000 that he claims to have raised to get on the
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ballot in the Conservative leadership race, the one that I got kicked out of when I was in
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third place, he had to get $75,000 worth of loans and go to the bank and get a line of
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credit, all public information now on his filing, to get from $200,000 plus to $300,000.
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So consistently since 2020, Derek Sloan has been a fraud in everything that he's pitched
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And I haven't seen the return you're referencing, but this is within the rules of the party because
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they approved him as a candidate, I presume, correct?
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Well, you'll have to ask the party about that because when I was in the race, no one ever
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thought you could take a bank loan to get the $300,000.
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Apparently, you had to raise the money to get the $300,000, but a loophole was exposed for
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Derek Sloan, not in the rules that that could be allowed, but the party made a cut for Derek
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And he stayed in the race, despite the fact that he said very inflammatory things in
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And you remember, Andrew, we got, you interviewed me at the time I got kicked out twice out of
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So there's always been a cloud on Derek Sloan as to like, what's he about?
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It's always two degrees or complete fabrication of what's really going on.
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And he decided to get into provincial politics.
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And you did a great job of exposing the fact that he's jumping around federal politics, Alberta,
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And he said on your show on June 2nd, June 3rd, he's probably not interested in sticking around
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Maybe he'll run for the leadership of the United Conservative Party of Alberta next, Andrew.
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Everything he says and everything he said on your show is a lie, totally, from the meetings
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that he claims were set up and how they went down to how the process unfolded, where he
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And it's unfortunate because for years, when I talk about things like 2018, when I ran for
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I can't get a hearing from anyone, mainstream media or outside, that'll allow me to discuss
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the ins and outs because that's inside baseball.
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But now we're going to spend time with less than two weeks to go until June 2nd to talk
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about inside baseball and what Derek Sloan's up to.
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Him and his friends in the back who have connections to the PC party, they wanted this narrative.
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And, you know, they've been half effective in doing it for this June 2nd election.
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We're talking about, in putting you and Derek up front right now, we're talking about two
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people that have had to experience a lot of the same tricks from the establishment.
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You've both been, I mean, he's been kicked out of caucus.
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So I don't think it's believable to say that this is actually a guy that has a secret deal
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with the establishment when he's been rebuked by that establishment in very similar ways
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But in that entire leadership, Derek Sloan forced his attacks and focused his attacks
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And he had nothing negative to say about Aaron O'Toole except for one email on a carbon tax,
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So you may not think it's believable, but I've lined up the facts.
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And it's available on newblowontario.com because he decided to decline having a meeting
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with me in the fall when I reached out to him and create this party.
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And what he's done for four months is exactly what he says he doesn't do, smear and attack.
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And he likes that kind of thing as a weaselly way, doing it behind the scenes.
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But when I bring it out to the public and the forefront, he doesn't like it.
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So he thinks it's OK for him in a leadership to repeatedly attack Leslie Lewis over and over
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I mean, she's not perfect, Andrew, but certainly better than Aaron O'Toole.
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She would have been as leader of the Conservative Party of Canada.
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But Derek Sloan decided he was going to attack Leslie Lewis in that race so that 20% of his
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voters could go to Aaron O'Toole on the up ballot.
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But when we call out Derek Sloan when he decides to run Canada against the new blue, he doesn't
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He doesn't like his record being put on the table.
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The history of me and Belinda in the Conservative movement goes back to 2017 when I was sued by
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Then in 2018, they rigged a presidential race against us.
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Then I got kicked out of the federal race twice by a LEOC that was run predominantly by
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And then my wife got kicked out of the PC caucus two weeks later.
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And 19 of us got kicked out of the PC party in Cambridge.
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And do you know, oh, do you know who was on that PC executive with Brian Patterson, Andrew,
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who voted in favor of kicking me and Belinda and 17 others out of the Cambridge PC Riding
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Derek Sloan's riding president at the federal level.
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He doesn't like to talk about his record and what he's done behind the scenes and who
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And the amount of time that you spend talking about these issues and similar issues, when
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you say your opponent is Doug Ford's PCs, makes it look like you're either threatened
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So is that an accurate assessment by this party that you say has it out for you?
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But when someone makes allegations, it's important to answer to them.
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But when we're talking about unity, both you and Derek say at the genesis of it that you
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So you've both provided or your parties have both provided records of text messages going
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The Ontario party says that they called off that meeting, which it sounds like was going
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forward when you went on the attack against Randy Hillier.
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We had two meetings with Pastor Michael Thiessen booked and Mike Thiessen canceled them.
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Prior to that, we had been talking to Mike Thiessen and updating him inside information
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And Mike Thiessen came to a lunch meeting with a couple other pastors, including Pastor Aaron
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Rock, looked us in the eye and said they were for the New Blue Party.
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And if they want to be the leader, let's have a leadership race.
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And he came out of that meeting looking us in the eye, you know, quoting the Bible,
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because that's what they do when they want you to believe them.
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And they came out of that meeting and he ran off to a couple of events with Randy Hillier,
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where Randy Hillier announced he was going to start a provincial party.
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And when Randy Hillier's provincial party fell apart, well, first those meetings got canceled,
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where I said to Derek, let's sit down, you and me, back in the fall.
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And Derek Sloan swore to me on the phone he was sticking with federal politics, not interested
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I even offered Derek and his wife to start the New Blue Riding Association in Hastings.
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And after that, Mike Thiessen went into work behind the scenes to start a party with Derek
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And it's interesting because Derek Sloan keeps preaching this unity.
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But in every step he's taking federally or provincially, he's not interested in unity.
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He couldn't work with Max Bernier after being in a caucus with Max Bernier.
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And while I was sick, fighting cancer, and getting back on my feet, getting the cancer
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out of my body, learning how to walk again, him and Randy and Max were touring around in
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And here we are, two and a half years later, after Belinda was the first to stand up and
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So Randy Hillier is not part of Derek Sloan's party.
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Derek Sloan wanted to run against Max Bernier federally.
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He could have picked up the phone at any time in the last seven months.
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The last time he called me was to tell me he was leading a provincial party in Ontario
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There was never, I want to be the leader of a party.
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And he's doing it specifically to waste our time and respond to these things and to try
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to stall us and our momentum going into June 2nd.
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Now, you mentioned earlier that one of your, I say grievances, and I wouldn't read too much
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into that, but one of your frustrations is that the Ontario party is running candidates
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Now, one of the topics that came up in my discussion with Derek yesterday is that he had tried to
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perhaps make an arrangement where you weren't running candidates against each other.
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You'd have your own parties, you'd have your own leaders, but you wouldn't be galvanizing
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And new blue has posted its response to the request for a meeting on that and derided it
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The same sort of thing that you say happens in the PCs.
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Would that not have been an example of a positive discussion that you could have around unity?
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Why was that meeting, which I think sounds like an entirely fair topic to broach between
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two party leaders, why is that something that you felt was offensive to democracy?
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So the new blue party of Ontario has thousands of members and donors.
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Do you know how many members the Ontario party has?
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And he talks about integrity and transparency and democracy.
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They had a party constitution, this Ontario party that they created in 2018.
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And they were going around telling us in 2020, when they were trying to talk to us about
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taking over the Ontario party, that we're not allowed to change their party of constitution
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This is what the board of the Ontario party, all two of them were saying.
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And then they tore up that party of constitution and just put a new one in because there's
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We've got thousands of members and donors riding presidents in place.
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It's not the Derek Sloan show and his buddies in the back that remain nameless and secret.
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So when he rebuffs us in September and October, and I tried to put it all aside, I said, you
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Derek Sloan had a spy on my leadership team who set me up to send an email out and he
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And we have people in the new blue team that worked on Derek Sloan's leadership and have
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told me firsthand that he was on the phone with Aaron O'Toole coordinating attacks against
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And let me reach out to Derek on election day federally when it's not going to turn out
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And then he came back in February or March, not him phoning me because, you know, he's
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not a standup guy, so he can't pick up the phone.
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He has other people saying, let's reach out to the new blue and let's tell them you guys
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Well, we want you to stand down a bunch of your candidates.
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So he wants me to issue an edict and act like Doug Ford does in his party and appoint candidates
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and say, we're not running a full slate anymore because Derek Sloan has decided to show up
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and he's going to scramble and put in candidates last minute, even though he has no brand awareness,
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no literature, no platform, no lawn signs, nothing.
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That is the most destructive proposal for a new party that anyone can think of.
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And the only reason he would do that is to sabotage our efforts, not to work together.
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Working together would be to say, wow, Jim and Belinda have been building this for over
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a year, despite the fact that Jim was sick and they're back on their feet.
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And I want to run provincially now because my time in federal politics didn't work out
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So let me approach them about running federal provincially in Ontario.
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And in fact, when he was approaching us for a meeting, him and Rick Nichols hadn't even
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committed to running in the provincial election.
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They were asked and they were saying, well, we're still not sure if we're going to run the
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So that letter that you unfortunately put up on your screen yesterday's show, fake news
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is what that was, was a proposal for me to cancel a bunch of our candidates in favor of candidates
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who don't agree with the new blue, who don't want to run on the new blueprint, which are
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stuff like scrapping the $100 million per vote taxpayer subsidy of political parties in
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Ontario, banning lobbyists from internal party politics, getting rid of the Toronto Star's
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online gambling license, fighting against critical race theory and the petition that Belinda
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read in the legislature that unfortunately, Derek Sloan and Rick Nichols didn't want to
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promote Rick Nichols voted in favor of bill 67.
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All those things that we're talking about, Derek Sloan and his candidates don't want to
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talk about, don't want to talk about wind turbines and high electricity rates.
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And he wanted me to cancel a bunch of our candidates going into our first election so we don't
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You are one of those people that we talked about at the beginning, Jim, that barely can
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muster enough energy and interest and time to pay attention to the normal politics of
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the liberal, the NDP, the PCs, let alone these new parties that don't yet have the name
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How are you supposed to come into this and see what just seems like a lot of people that
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aren't willing to get along, that aren't able to put the cause of freedom forward?
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Whoever is to blame, how is a voter supposed to work their way through this and have any
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confidence that we could have the freedom-centered alternative that all of the people in the
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How is a voter supposed to navigate through this?
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The voters that are looking for an option against the establishment have united against the
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Sorry, they've united against the PC party and the establishment parties for the New Blue
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And we're seeing it locally in Cambridge and the surrounding ridings.
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But there are over 10 million voters in Ontario.
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And our goal is to make the New Blue Party raise awareness for the New Blue Party in every
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single riding in our first election and keep moving forward after June 2nd.
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And we can't control what guys like Derek Sloan and his buddies that consider themselves important
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figures in the movement, as he said in your thing, in your interview with him.
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And we should be treated important as important people in these meetings.
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The New Blue Party of Ontario is representing hardworking parents and people in every single
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And it would be a shame if, because of Derek Sloan's efforts, we fall short in Cambridge
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But largely, this is a distraction that has slowed us down a little bit.
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But there's 10 million more voters in Ontario that we have to look at, Andrew.
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And all we can do is keep moving forward and keep talking about the things that the establishment
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parties and Derek Sloan don't want to talk about.
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And that's how we're getting more and more people interested in the New Blue Party.
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Will you subject yourself to a leadership review after the election?
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We have a board, Andrew, and we're going to sit down and the board's going to make a
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We also have members and we have a party constitution.
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And there's triggers in place for members and riding associations to have their voices heard
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And we're going to have future conventions face to face.
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We're the only new party that had nominations going into this election.
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We have members and donors in every single riding.
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And we are a grassroots party and are committed to that at all aspects.
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So you're already jumping to the leadership review.
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We haven't even gone through our first election campaign.
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But I think the leadership speaks for itself, Andrew.
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We've put this together in a year and a half, despite some personal battles, despite distractions
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And on June 2nd, hopefully Belinda will get reelected and others will get elected.
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00:24:53.060
I am jumping ahead, but I think it's a relevant question because earlier you said that there was
00:24:56.980
a time when you would have been open to having perhaps a different leader to New Blue if the
00:25:01.860
So you as the leader could go to the board and go to the members and say, I'm voluntarily
00:25:05.840
opening up the door to a review of my leadership.
00:25:11.060
Why would I do that now, 12 days before the election?
00:25:15.140
It's a commitment to the members that you say are the backbone of your party, that you
00:25:18.640
think they should have a say no matter what happens after this election.
00:25:21.400
If enough members want to have a leadership review, the board would consider it.
00:25:25.580
And of course, I'm very confident in my leadership.
00:25:27.820
I'm the one that's proposed a leadership race for Randy Hillier, for Roman Babber, for
00:25:34.280
But we're not going to have a leadership race for someone who's not a member of the
00:25:41.220
If the members want to call for a leadership review, we have triggers in the party to
00:25:48.300
But right now we're focused on June 2nd, Andrew.
00:25:50.660
And you're jumping ahead beyond June 2nd to talk about replacing or reviewing the leader
00:26:00.820
So let me ask you a question I asked Derek yesterday.
00:26:06.680
What do you consider a victory in your scenario for June 2nd?
00:26:12.140
We wanted to establish a party for June 2nd because many people, including some of Derek's
00:26:17.280
friends, like Mike Thiessen, said we need another option on June 2nd.
00:26:21.240
And we've already, in our first campaign, have 124 candidates on ballots and 124 ridings.
00:26:33.140
Challenge the left, balance the narrative, change the course.
00:26:38.340
And we're trying every day getting lawn signs out.
00:26:43.320
Our candidates are canvassing and raising awareness.
00:26:53.340
But we're committed to provincial politics in Ontario for the long term and to keep moving
00:26:59.020
And we'll see what the voters decide on June 2nd.
00:27:02.240
And if all goes well, hopefully Belinda will get reelected and we'll get close to electing
00:27:07.140
other MPPs into Queen's Park so we can continue to change the course and balance and challenge
00:27:13.480
These establishment parties are out of control.
00:27:16.240
If you end up in a situation where you had a couple of new blue MPPs who collectively held
00:27:21.320
the balance of power in the legislature, could you even work with the PCs?
00:27:25.540
Could you even work with this party, given all that you've said about it and your history
00:27:39.100
So how can you cut a quote unquote deal on an arrangement?
00:27:43.160
You would be making an arrangement with them just like you would with Derek Sloan, knowing
00:27:46.860
that they're going to break it, knowing that they're not going to follow their commitments
00:27:49.960
or keep their commitments, just like Derek Sloan doesn't keep his commitments.
00:27:54.460
And we'd have to look at it vote by vote if that's the case.
00:28:00.360
But we're not getting ahead of ourselves, Andrew.
00:28:03.060
Andrew, we got 13 days left in this election and we're a new party a year and a half in
00:28:08.480
and the PCs and Liberals are brands that are over 100 years old.
00:28:14.380
There's no quick zip on the elevator ride from the first floor to the top of the building.
00:28:19.520
We got to do it step by step and the hard way and keep building momentum.
00:28:30.980
Jim Carajalios, leader of the New Blue Party of Ontario.
00:28:34.620
And what we will do and what I'd like to do if the leaders are available and we've extended
00:28:39.920
invitations to Premier Doug Ford as well is to come on and actually talk about policy.
00:28:44.300
But what I wanted to do this week, as I said at the outset, is help people navigate through
00:28:49.260
the bad blood, the very legitimate bad blood that you see between both.
00:28:54.180
I shouldn't even say legitimate, but the very real bad blood that you see between both of
00:28:58.580
So I don't know if it's cleared things up for you or made it more difficult to understand
00:29:04.160
But all we do is give you the information and you can decide for yourself what to do
00:29:10.460
When we come back, we're going to go from the little picture to the big picture and talk
00:29:16.140
That's up next with Irvin Student here on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:29:28.180
Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:29:31.720
We often talk about the internal dynamics and divides in Canada, the political fault lines,
00:29:39.600
And these are very important subjects and they can't be discounted even in what I'd like
00:29:44.260
But I do want to take a much, much bigger picture, a global picture here of this country
00:29:49.920
and where it fits into the world and how the domestic and the international, the domestic
00:29:56.860
And there have been a lot of things I've been reflecting on as I read a book by a great
00:30:01.520
friend of this program, which is Irvin Student, Canada Must Think for Itself, 10 Theses for
00:30:08.160
Our Country's Survival and Success in the 21st Century.
00:30:11.480
So the title right there suggests a level of optimism.
00:30:14.300
But if you look through the books, there are some very clear issues.
00:30:16.880
I don't want to say problems, but certainly challenges and issues that are identified that
00:30:29.760
I want to skip ahead here to one particular thesis that you put forward, and then we
00:30:34.500
can talk about the bigger picture, because I think this one captures what's at stake here.
00:30:38.760
You say, if Canada survives the century, it will be either a great power or a deep vassal
00:30:44.820
And when I read through that, what you're saying it sounds like is that, you know, we're
00:30:48.080
on the cusp of something here, but we could go in either direction.
00:30:51.120
And very real challenges facing our lawmakers, our citizens, civil society right now, really
00:30:57.780
affect in a dramatic way what things are going to look like in 2100.
00:31:04.560
And I should say at the outset, first of all, thanks for your deep curiosity about that thesis.
00:31:10.300
And one ought not to take offense when I say we have a potentially deeply vassalized country
00:31:16.060
in front of us, that's, we're all in a common scenario, but we're coming out of a pandemic
00:31:20.840
that has presented the country with, as I mentioned on your show, seven or eight systems
00:31:25.500
And we're coming into a world in which there's obvious conflict, but more tightly, if you
00:31:29.780
look at our borders, we've got America to the south, China to the west, Russia to the
00:31:35.340
north across the Arctic, and Europe to the east.
00:31:41.500
And if you do the math, it's 15 combinations of push, pull and pressure on our territory
00:31:46.380
by these great powers at our, at our doorstep and literally at our doorstep.
00:31:50.580
And I say, if we wish to survive, we either have to up our game hugely, in which case we'll
00:31:56.700
become amongst, we'll be among the great powers at our doorstep.
00:32:00.420
And these are at our doorstep, literally, or we have to say, it's just too big for us.
00:32:05.300
And we vassalized even further into the country we know best, the United States, which is the
00:32:13.560
And it could be a good bet still, but because the United States is far weaker in the world
00:32:18.040
of tomorrow, in my view, far less wise and could even be predatory on us and really push
00:32:23.680
us around in their own interest, it could be very painful indeed.
00:32:27.480
So those are the two scenarios and also suggests, as I mentioned in the book, that we should
00:32:36.020
We either are a deeply vassalized state, in which case, let's not pretend we are an extension
00:32:40.120
of American power for better or worse, or we are a great power amongst the great powers
00:32:44.960
at our doorstep, which requires a huge upping of the level of thinking, resources, and ambition.
00:32:51.660
You know, a line from a movie jumps out when you say that though, you know, and I'm just
00:32:56.180
envisioning Justin Trudeau saying, you know, we're a great power, we're just having trouble
00:32:59.920
getting the word out, you know, because in order to be a great power and to wield that
00:33:04.100
power, you have to have that power respected and accepted and acknowledged elsewhere.
00:33:10.860
So if we say that point A is where we are now and point C is Canada being a great power,
00:33:21.360
Well, we're tending towards A and A minus and A minus minus.
00:33:26.480
I mean, the trajectory is increased vassalization.
00:33:29.960
And with these major powers at our doorstep playing across our territory and the conflict
00:33:33.900
between the United States and China over Meng Wanzhou and even the USMCA is just a small
00:33:40.940
symptom of the great cuts that can happen once these powers start to play across our territory
00:33:49.100
I don't like to do Twitter feed or rhetoric about power.
00:33:53.780
That's why I say we cannot call ourselves a great power on the structure I present.
00:33:59.840
I want to disabuse also your distinguished listeners of even the idea of a great power
00:34:06.600
We're either a term setting country or a term, deeply term taking.
00:34:10.140
I would like us to be a term setting country in our own interests and indeed for the world.
00:34:15.080
And that requires well beyond the respect of others or before the respect of others.
00:34:22.060
And the resources they underpin power and thinking, the thinking of a term setting country,
00:34:28.480
we're not even there, are much more than education.
00:34:31.080
Of course they are education, but they are economic resources, diplomatic relationships richly
00:34:36.220
around the world, military resources, territorial resources, natural resources,
00:34:42.280
population demography, the mix of demography, the commercial product,
00:34:47.380
and many other things besides, including transportation.
00:34:50.520
And all of this needs to be choreographed in the service of a term taking future,
00:34:58.940
That means we might make a great bet that the United States will yet win this century.
00:35:03.160
Good on us, but we may not survive that century.
00:35:07.000
We may become very miserable and divided indeed.
00:35:10.120
The reverse is a huge investment doubling down on what we need to survive in a century
00:35:15.140
that doesn't promise us anything and in which no country is thinking about Canada.
00:35:20.560
The preface to thinking for ourselves, all those material resources,
00:35:24.080
which will allow us to think at a higher level.
00:35:27.580
When you look at the global landscape, I mean, including the countries that you've just
00:35:31.200
acknowledged there, obviously size, population size, and GDP are very significant determining
00:35:41.840
Government style, it doesn't appear is as much.
00:35:44.580
You've got China, an authoritarian dictatorship.
00:35:49.500
I mean, three vastly different approaches to government, but they all have been in that
00:35:52.700
top echelon as far as powerful nations are concerned.
00:35:56.120
So, I mean, if you are looking at a country like Canada, and you're trying,
00:35:59.580
and I know you have a chapter on the challenge of planning, but if you were to plan Canada's
00:36:03.660
future and really ensure that Canada is, as you mentioned, that term-setting country,
00:36:11.340
Population size takes time, and other countries' populations are going to be growing as well.
00:36:18.920
What is it that you can leverage to become a term-setter?
00:36:22.900
It's a great question, and it's central to the book.
00:36:26.500
And by the way, for your listeners, again, when we say planning, we ought not to be Twitter-ish
00:36:33.000
Every country plans, and Canada better plan properly in a democratic context if we're
00:36:42.180
I'm talking about thinking and resources, which every country needs, and we've had historically.
00:36:46.840
The problem in the 21st century is how do great democracies, federal democracies, no less,
00:36:52.120
How do we think beyond the tweet, beyond our nose, beyond the current crises?
00:36:57.440
The big move I commend in the book, and I think I articulated in part at a keynote at which you
00:37:04.120
were present and colleagues in Calgary a few weeks ago, is that the North is melting.
00:37:12.020
Our big move in response to climate change is not to imagine from the South or from Toronto
00:37:19.700
They're going to physically somehow transform the climate through domestic action.
0.87
00:37:25.820
Nay, our responsible move is that the Arctic is opening up.
00:37:32.820
Our Arctic, Canadian alone, is the size of the European Union.
00:37:36.540
The population in Canada of that European Union-sized territory, which is 40% of our territory
00:37:44.840
That's the size of Red Deer, Alberta or Ajax, Ontario.
00:37:51.000
That's not enough to do anything with a great respect to all my Arctic colleagues.
00:37:55.200
And at that Arctic space, we have the Russians pushing on us, the Americans, the Chinese in
1.00
00:38:02.600
How do we embed them in a peaceful framework that makes us rich and saves the world?
00:38:08.260
And the idea is to make our North, through cities like Whitehorse, Inuvik and Yellowknife,
00:38:15.360
And we are the center of the world geographically, just not through the South, where we're an appendix
00:38:21.140
Through the North, we are the center of four continents, which provide us with a market
00:38:26.660
size, seven to one in ratio, greater than the American continental market alone, including
00:38:37.300
It's a geopolitical vision of peace, and it is one of national sovereignty, where we assert
00:38:43.240
ourselves in a territory that we would be negligent to ignore.
00:38:47.840
We can't ignore it because then the country will collapse.
00:38:50.300
That requires a shift in our resources and our imagination, our political pressure to the
00:38:56.400
North, where we imagine that everything happens along the American borders.
00:39:01.020
And that's our big exit from all the multiple crises coming out of the pandemic as well.
00:39:05.240
It is interesting because going back to, I mean, John A. McDonald's national policy,
00:39:09.840
the greatest challenge in Canada and building a nation was uniting the country east to west
00:39:18.100
And that did, I mean, the Maritimes were a little bit later on, but obviously that did
00:39:22.980
We live in an era in which we don't rely on rail travel to get around.
00:39:26.980
Why, I mean, when, I guess, would you say that that fundamental axis shifted from an east-west
00:39:42.000
Like there needs to be an attitude shift to recognize this.
00:39:45.940
And unfortunately, the last two years have shown that Canada does not respond at the leadership
00:39:52.500
level, at all levels of government, across the parties to crisis and to my chagrin.
00:39:59.780
So we don't respond with mobilization to crisis.
00:40:03.760
A la différence with the Americans, the Chinese, the Russians, many Europeans, they know how
0.97
00:40:08.940
The Israelis, the Persians, the Turks, they've got a mobilization capacity.
00:40:15.080
So that means that in this great four-point or 15 combination game that I present, we
00:40:21.780
could be crippled very quickly at a strategic level without even moving.
00:40:25.600
So we better seize the moment while we can before it closes or before other of these other
00:40:31.000
more mobilizable countries do it for us in their name.
00:40:34.820
So the part of the book is to change what I call the mental map of our country.
00:40:40.720
Basically, for all Canadians who love our country, educated and less educated doesn't
00:40:49.220
And as I suggest, as the North opens up, because the melting of the Arctic is a new phenomenon,
00:40:55.160
the rise of China in modern Canada is a new phenomenon.
00:40:59.160
So the axis of activity will be increasingly in the North and the West, which also
00:41:04.820
begins to solve the Western problem or the national unity tension in Canada.
00:41:10.460
Through the North, we are closer to Asia and China in particular than are the Australians.
00:41:16.340
Through the North, we are closer to St. Petersburg and the former Soviet space, including Ukraine,
00:41:24.760
Through the North, we are closer to the Nordic states of the European Union than we are from
00:41:30.500
And we are close to the United States through Alaska and several other northern states.
00:41:36.020
All told, a market of $2 billion, which is seven times larger than the $330 million or so
00:41:45.440
So it requires a huge change in the imagination.
00:41:48.680
It is exciting for our young people who have suffered most during the pandemic.
00:41:53.300
And it is sufficiently large and urgent to command our resources such that we're able to get
00:42:00.020
And there are seven or eight crises that require much more than just road building, tax cuts,
00:42:06.440
And I think that is sufficiently large to give us an exit and an exciting tomorrow.
00:42:11.340
It's difficult to do anything globally when you have the internal unity challenges.
00:42:17.960
And I know national unity is a very important chapter in this book.
00:42:21.480
And I wanted to ask you about this because you have a lot of countries in the world like
00:42:24.960
Australia and New Zealand that have indigenous populations.
00:42:28.260
You've got countries in the world that have, you know, that are bilingual, Belgium, trilingual,
00:42:35.560
I mean, these are not dynamics that are unique to Canada, although Canada does seem to have
00:42:40.220
more of them because we have the indigenous issue.
00:42:45.240
And if you take into account indigenous languages, of which there are many, you've got countless
00:42:52.640
And then you also have very fundamentally different cultures between French culture and English
00:42:59.480
And even in English Canada, an Ontarian and a British Columbian and an Albertan, I think,
00:43:04.080
have very different, perhaps less different than a Francophone and an Anglophone.
00:43:08.140
So there are a lot of different things that need to work to keep Canada united.
00:43:13.300
And I think we tend to take for granted that we're all committed to Canada in the same way.
00:43:18.080
How do you solve, if you can, that unity challenge?
00:43:22.060
It's a central question because we must solve our external challenges just as we solve the
00:43:29.920
In the book, we have four national unity crises coming out of the pandemic.
00:43:35.080
The first one is basic borders dividing the country in regulatory terms, sometimes in physical
00:43:41.880
The second one is the Western question, which is still wicked and maybe growing in profile.
0.70
00:43:48.540
The third is the Quebec question is still alive.
00:43:51.280
And if it ever does explode, whatever people think on Twitter, it would compromise the entire
00:43:59.660
And the fourth one, as you articulate, is the indigenous challenge.
1.00
00:44:03.480
The Western challenge, I articulate, can in part be solved through the North.
0.64
00:44:11.400
Rather than being pedantic, say we just redistribute or give more resources, more power to the West,
00:44:16.580
the opening of the North to huge markets is psychologically very seductive to the West,
00:44:22.240
which is very attached to at least Yukon and Northwest territories.
00:44:27.380
The Quebec question, I argue, is one to be managed.
00:44:33.400
I talk about a national languages strategy, which will get us beyond what I think is a very,
00:44:37.860
very low standard hump that we've allowed to occupy our political imagination.
00:44:45.020
You talk about bilingual, trilingual, quadrilingual countries in Europe, and the same is true
1.00
00:44:53.800
So I tried to break the logic and say that tomorrow, as we plan education post-pandemic,
00:44:59.860
we ought to imagine that everyone will simply speak English and French without blinking.
00:45:04.100
And then they choose a third language because we need a third language for the indigenous
0.99
00:45:07.900
cause domestically, which helps to address that, but also for our wicked international
0.57
00:45:16.360
I talk about taking lessons from Northern Aboriginal Indigenous self-government treaties.
00:45:23.120
There are something like 26 self-government arrangements in all of Canada, mostly in the
00:45:28.060
North, and they're very, very practical and so far have been productive.
00:45:32.080
And they're much, they're outside of the Indian Act.
00:45:33.960
And I think these are huge examples that we ought to multiply.
00:45:40.200
And finally, on the borders to our country that have been erected domestically, that needs
00:45:47.620
And there must be a commission that assiduously unwinds all of the regulations that were improvised
00:45:54.060
and unfurled on the territory, militating against national unity immediately.
00:45:59.240
We don't have time to go through the book page by page, and I don't think we'd want to because
00:46:05.880
So do have a look at Canada Must Think For Itself for Yourself, so you can think for yourself
00:46:13.560
But I guess if we want to tie what we have covered up in a bow here, Irvin, let me ask
00:46:20.920
Because government has to be just as a matter of, not just as a matter of law, but I think
00:46:25.360
is a matter of the law of nature as well, responsive to the people it represents.
00:46:31.520
So the government cannot start centrally planning in a way that is unhealthy in a democratic society.
00:46:36.920
But government can certainly guide and government can shepherd.
00:46:40.080
But individual people are the ones that need to decide what they want the future of their
00:46:47.120
Who do you think it is that is best suited or can take this up and move on these things?
00:46:52.420
History suggests that it will take just a small group of leaders who have bathed in this type
0.99
00:47:03.980
Now when you say leaders, intellectuals, political leaders, media figures, or a combination?
00:47:08.540
Even if you look at the Quebec Revolution, the Quiet Revolution in the 60s and then in practice
00:47:14.460
in the 70s and 80s, it was executed by a small group of people who were debating and thinking
00:47:19.620
in that unfurled ambition at all levels of society.
00:47:23.360
Politics, obviously, to begin with, politics is central in a good way.
00:47:28.860
And the converse scenario is devastating for the country.
00:47:32.240
In the absence of such leadership, and unfortunately that's been the case throughout the pandemic,
00:47:39.760
The countries tend to last an average of 60 years in the modern sense, after which they
00:47:44.260
collapse through domestic or external circumstances.
00:47:47.260
And we're well past due, that means we have to work that much harder to keep our country
00:47:53.860
Irvin Student would encourage people to check out his book, Canada Must Think for Itself.
00:48:03.760
Some nice big picture topics as you head into the weekend here.
00:48:07.900
And as I've mentioned at the beginning of the show and in the last couple shows, I am going
00:48:11.960
to be in the next, actually, I might even be on a plane right now, depending on when this
00:48:16.980
As I mentioned on the previous shows and earlier on, I'm actually on my way to Davos,
00:48:21.980
In fact, when this comes out, I might even be on a plane.
00:48:24.340
So I am going to be not doing the regular Andrew Lawton show next week as I cover the
00:48:30.420
But we will have lots of coverage at True North.
00:48:34.140
And we'll talk to you upon my return next week.
00:48:42.320
Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton show.
00:48:45.120
Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.