Juno News - May 21, 2022


What should Ontario conservatives do this election？


Episode Stats

Length

49 minutes

Words per Minute

193.20226

Word Count

9,525

Sentence Count

579

Misogynist Sentences

8

Hate Speech Sentences

14


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:05.360 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:10.800 Coming up, new blue party of Ontario leader Jim Carajalios joins the show to talk about the upcoming election
00:00:17.060 and also Urban Student talking about Canada's place in the world and whether it can join the legions of great powers.
00:00:23.840 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:27.100 Hello and welcome to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:30.320 This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:33.960 The Andrew Lawton Show, good to have you aboard the program here on Friday, May 20th, 2022.
00:00:39.820 It is a long weekend. Hope you have great things planned, getting together with the family, having a barbecue, opening the cottage, whatever the case may be.
00:00:47.720 And one thing that I want to bring up that I think is very important here, I am not here right now.
00:00:53.560 This is not live. I am, as this comes out on a plane to Zurich, Switzerland, where, as I mentioned in the previous couple of shows,
00:01:01.220 I am going to then rent a car and head on over through the Swiss Alps to Davos to cover the World Economic Forum's annual meeting.
00:01:09.340 And this is something that I'm very much looking forward to.
00:01:12.180 I've had people, literally, I've had people just come up and stop me and say,
00:01:14.860 I hear you're going to Davos, good for you. I'm supporting you.
00:01:17.780 So thank you to all of you for doing that.
00:01:19.980 Like I said, I make no promises about what coverage is going to look like.
00:01:23.640 I do know, because the agenda came out, that Francois-Philippe Champagne, Canada's Industry and Innovation Minister,
00:01:29.940 is going to be speaking about the jobs of tomorrow.
00:01:32.920 So we'll have to cover that session.
00:01:34.660 Haven't yet seen any other Canadian cabinet ministers on the speaking agenda.
00:01:38.880 But I know from past summits they've had, these things tend to change.
00:01:42.780 And they morph over time as the event nears and even during the week.
00:01:47.000 So we'll keep an eye out for that.
00:01:48.860 But I do want to just say thank you to all of you who have chipped in to support this.
00:01:54.020 If you want to do so now, you can head on over to donate.tnc.news.
00:01:58.100 It's not, I mean, we're doing our best to keep costs down.
00:02:00.520 I'm going alone.
00:02:01.540 But it's not an inexpensive undertaking.
00:02:03.880 So we're doing this because we feel that there is a story here.
00:02:07.220 And we want to get past the conspiracy theories and past the people that are just dismissive
00:02:11.780 because they think any criticism is a conspiracy theory.
00:02:14.620 And actually talk about, in their own words, what it is that they're doing.
00:02:18.060 And how Canada has really tried to hitch itself to the so-called Davos agenda voluntarily.
00:02:24.320 Again, we're not talking about puppet masters here.
00:02:26.480 We're talking about an ideological framework that leaders like Justin Trudeau are all too
00:02:31.120 happy to take up.
00:02:32.200 So that's why we're going.
00:02:33.440 We'll have lots of coverage of that in the days ahead and the next week as I am on the
00:02:38.300 ground in Davos.
00:02:39.520 So thanks again to those who have supported that.
00:02:41.340 I want to shift gears a little bit and do a follow-up to a discussion we had yesterday
00:02:45.780 on the show with Derek Sloan, leader of the Ontario Party.
00:02:50.220 And as I mentioned at the beginning of that show, originally what I wanted to do was have
00:02:53.940 Derek Sloan as the leader of the Ontario Party and Jim Carajalios as leader of the New
00:02:58.720 Blue Party on at the same time.
00:03:00.380 Because I've been fielding emails from a lot of conservatives, and I use that with a small
00:03:04.980 C voters that don't know how to navigate having these two upstart parties that it seems like
00:03:10.680 on the surface, and we'll dig into this in this discussion, are going after the same
00:03:14.940 voters and talking about a lot of the same issues.
00:03:17.480 So we had that.
00:03:18.900 And obviously the topic of unity between these two parties came up a lot in that interview.
00:03:24.320 Derek Sloan made a number of accusations against the New Blue and against Jim Carajalios,
00:03:29.340 which is why I wanted to have the two on at the same time.
00:03:32.980 And then I had said during the show I was going to extend an invitation to Jim Carajalios
00:03:37.500 to come on to respond.
00:03:39.540 And I am very pleased to have Jim here now.
00:03:41.820 Jim, good to talk to you.
00:03:42.620 Thanks for coming on today.
00:03:44.420 It's always good to be on, Andrew.
00:03:46.080 It's unfortunate we haven't been on for a couple of years, but it's good to be back.
00:03:49.540 Yeah, I mean, I've talked about a lot of the themes that you have been beating the
00:03:54.060 drum about as well.
00:03:54.840 When it comes to the lack of independence of MPPs, we had both you and Belinda on when
00:03:59.740 the party was formed and when she was kicked out of caucus.
00:04:02.540 But right now we're seeing a fracturing of the conservative movement more broadly here.
00:04:09.520 And I want to be clear, I'm not talking about just the conservative party.
00:04:12.700 But let's just begin for people that aren't as familiar.
00:04:15.300 Is the New Blue trying to be a more conservative version of the PC party?
00:04:20.420 Or is it trying to be a PC party without the negatives and the corruption you've identified
00:04:26.040 within that party or something else entirely?
00:04:28.520 Well, the PC party is not a conservative right of center party anymore.
00:04:31.480 They've made it very clear with the budget they released before the election started.
00:04:35.320 And just this week, like the last couple of days, Andrew, they're bragging about cutting
00:04:39.580 deals with labor bosses, Andrew.
00:04:42.580 They're bragging about it.
00:04:44.260 We've got the labor bosses in our pockets.
00:04:47.260 And the lobbyists online are bragging about it.
00:04:49.580 It's great for the PC party.
00:04:50.800 They are going after left-wing voters.
00:04:53.440 They are now transformed into being the wing in Ontario of the Just and Trudeau Liberal Party
00:04:59.560 of Canada.
00:05:00.400 And they've extended the legacy of the begin-to-win Liberals.
00:05:02.740 Now, a lot of Ontario voters are just being made aware of this because a lot of people
00:05:07.720 are busy working, taking their kids to school in the four years.
00:05:11.000 And they check into politics like normal people when there's a campaign, not like us junkies
00:05:15.300 who are following it probably a little too closely.
00:05:17.340 But more and more, increasingly, people are noticing that the PC party holds their traditional
00:05:21.880 base and their values and principles that they claim to have.
00:05:26.060 When you ran, Andrew, in 2018 as a candidate, they have contempt for those values and principles.
00:05:32.060 So it's not just about the corruption, but that's what unifies people behind the New
00:05:36.180 Blue Party is the lack of integrity in the process, the fact that you can't speak up in
00:05:41.140 a grassroots way and influence the process in the PC party.
00:05:44.660 And there's no one else to go to vote for on June 2nd.
00:05:47.440 And when Belinda got ejected and 19 of us got ejected from the Cambridge PC Riding Association,
00:05:51.900 we formed the New Blue Party a year and a half ago.
00:05:54.920 And in our first election, we got 124 names on 124 ballots across the province.
00:06:01.280 You mentioned a few moments ago, I think, the painful point of politics, which is that
00:06:05.060 the freaks that live in this world, like you and I and a lot of the people who tune into
00:06:09.380 this show, are a lot more connected and engaged on these issues year round than the average
00:06:13.780 voter, which touches on the point I made a couple of moments ago, that a lot of voters
00:06:17.060 don't know how to navigate having multiple parties that are presenting themselves as conservative
00:06:22.240 options.
00:06:22.900 And when I reached out to your communications director, because I wanted to help the viewers
00:06:28.060 sort this out, I was told, and you can correct me if this is representative of your view or
00:06:32.460 not, that there was no interest in debating or discussing on a panel with Derek Sloan,
00:06:37.460 because there was basically a refusal to accept that as a legitimate party.
00:06:41.800 So how do we go from that to you wanting to respond to things that Derek Sloan is saying?
00:06:48.840 That's not my view on your invitation.
00:06:51.260 We asked you to invite all the parties, because we're not running an election campaign against
00:06:55.500 Derek Sloan and the fraudulent things that he says, and he has said for months.
00:07:00.380 We're running against the PCs, the NDP, the Liberals and the Greens.
00:07:04.080 And Derek Sloan decided four months ago, he wanted to run candidates against the new Blue
00:07:08.320 Party.
00:07:08.960 That's not what we're doing.
00:07:09.860 That's not what we've been doing on social media for two years, on our radio ads, on
00:07:14.820 our literature and our lawn signs.
00:07:16.120 We're running against the establishment parties.
00:07:18.540 So I made the instructions very clear.
00:07:21.220 Ask Andrew to reach out to the establishment parties and set up an all-candidates meeting.
00:07:26.100 And if the Ontario party is invited, we'll do that.
00:07:28.180 Some of our candidates have been invited locally to all-candidates meetings, and some Ontario
00:07:32.120 party candidates are there.
00:07:33.260 That's great.
00:07:34.000 So that's our view.
00:07:34.860 Now, when it comes to Derek Sloan, Derek Sloan's a fraud.
00:07:37.340 That's where you start with on the occasion.
00:07:39.500 Derek Sloan's claim to fame in 2020 was that he achieved $300,000 in donations to be on
00:07:47.920 the ballot of the Conservative Party candidate.
00:07:49.840 Remember that?
00:07:51.160 You remember?
00:07:51.860 Yes.
00:07:52.400 No one knew who Derek Sloan was, except for people locally in his riding before then.
00:07:56.600 And he just submitted his financial return to elections candidate.
00:08:01.620 He brought this up.
00:08:02.480 I've never brought this up before.
00:08:04.120 He made false allegations on your show that I've brought up his financial record.
00:08:08.380 I never have.
00:08:09.020 But since he's brought it up and made false allegations against me, let's go deep dive into
00:08:13.460 that.
00:08:13.680 You know that he never raised the $300,000 that he claims to have raised to get on the
00:08:18.840 ballot in the Conservative leadership race, the one that I got kicked out of when I was in
00:08:22.020 third place, he had to get $75,000 worth of loans and go to the bank and get a line of
00:08:27.860 credit, all public information now on his filing, to get from $200,000 plus to $300,000.
00:08:33.580 So consistently since 2020, Derek Sloan has been a fraud in everything that he's pitched
00:08:38.520 forward.
00:08:39.240 And I haven't seen the return you're referencing, but this is within the rules of the party because
00:08:43.340 they approved him as a candidate, I presume, correct?
00:08:45.280 Well, you'll have to ask the party about that because when I was in the race, no one ever
00:08:50.200 thought you could take a bank loan to get the $300,000.
00:08:53.220 Apparently, you had to raise the money to get the $300,000, but a loophole was exposed for
00:08:57.900 Derek Sloan, not in the rules that that could be allowed, but the party made a cut for Derek
00:09:02.320 Sloan.
00:09:02.720 And he stayed in the race, despite the fact that he said very inflammatory things in
00:09:06.960 that race.
00:09:07.460 And you remember, Andrew, we got, you interviewed me at the time I got kicked out twice out of
00:09:11.360 that race.
00:09:11.820 So there's always been a cloud on Derek Sloan as to like, what's he about?
00:09:16.680 Because what he says is never the truth.
00:09:20.460 It's always two degrees or complete fabrication of what's really going on.
00:09:24.900 And he decided to get into provincial politics.
00:09:27.860 And you did a great job of exposing the fact that he's jumping around federal politics, Alberta,
00:09:32.600 independent, provincial politics in Ontario.
00:09:34.980 And he said on your show on June 2nd, June 3rd, he's probably not interested in sticking around
00:09:39.280 in provincial politics.
00:09:40.040 Maybe he'll run for the leadership of the United Conservative Party of Alberta next, Andrew.
00:09:44.440 Who knows with Derek Sloan?
00:09:45.940 He's all over the place.
00:09:47.360 But one thing is consistent.
00:09:48.860 Everything he says and everything he said on your show is a lie, totally, from the meetings
00:09:54.380 that he claims were set up and how they went down to how the process unfolded, where he
00:10:01.620 decided to jump in last minute.
00:10:03.240 And it's unfortunate because for years, when I talk about things like 2018, when I ran for
00:10:09.300 president, you were there, Andrew.
00:10:10.880 And that was a rigged convention.
00:10:12.480 They rigged it.
00:10:13.600 They stuffed the ballots.
00:10:14.620 People voted more than once.
00:10:15.700 I can't get a hearing from anyone, mainstream media or outside, that'll allow me to discuss
00:10:21.220 the ins and outs because that's inside baseball.
00:10:23.480 But now we're going to spend time with less than two weeks to go until June 2nd to talk
00:10:27.700 about inside baseball and what Derek Sloan's up to.
00:10:30.520 And that was by design.
00:10:31.780 Him and his friends in the back who have connections to the PC party, they wanted this narrative.
00:10:36.800 And, you know, they've been half effective in doing it for this June 2nd election.
00:10:41.000 We're talking about, in putting you and Derek up front right now, we're talking about two
00:10:46.240 people that have had to experience a lot of the same tricks from the establishment.
00:10:51.680 You've both been, I mean, he's been kicked out of caucus.
00:10:53.960 You were disqualified from the race.
00:10:55.740 So I don't think it's believable to say that this is actually a guy that has a secret deal
00:11:01.560 with the establishment when he's been rebuked by that establishment in very similar ways
00:11:06.140 to how you have been.
00:11:07.320 He got kicked out by Aaron O'Toole.
00:11:08.840 After Aaron O'Toole had enough with him.
00:11:12.060 But in that entire leadership, Derek Sloan forced his attacks and focused his attacks
00:11:17.920 on Leslie Lewis.
00:11:19.400 And he had nothing negative to say about Aaron O'Toole except for one email on a carbon tax,
00:11:23.420 which he criticized all of them.
00:11:24.980 So you may not think it's believable, but I've lined up the facts.
00:11:28.280 And it's available on newblowontario.com because he decided to decline having a meeting
00:11:33.120 with me in the fall when I reached out to him and create this party.
00:11:36.460 And what he's done for four months is exactly what he says he doesn't do, smear and attack.
00:11:42.760 And he likes that kind of thing as a weaselly way, doing it behind the scenes.
00:11:46.860 But when I bring it out to the public and the forefront, he doesn't like it.
00:11:50.580 He doesn't like being held accountable.
00:11:51.780 So he thinks it's OK for him in a leadership to repeatedly attack Leslie Lewis over and over
00:11:58.240 again.
00:11:58.740 I mean, she's not perfect, Andrew, but certainly better than Aaron O'Toole.
00:12:02.260 She would have been as leader of the Conservative Party of Canada.
00:12:04.760 But Derek Sloan decided he was going to attack Leslie Lewis in that race so that 20% of his
00:12:08.840 voters could go to Aaron O'Toole on the up ballot.
00:12:12.640 But when we call out Derek Sloan when he decides to run Canada against the new blue, he doesn't
00:12:18.180 like it.
00:12:18.680 He doesn't like his record being put on the table.
00:12:22.000 And he got kicked out of caucus once.
00:12:24.480 The history of me and Belinda in the Conservative movement goes back to 2017 when I was sued by
00:12:30.800 the PC party.
00:12:31.900 Then in 2018, they rigged a presidential race against us.
00:12:35.300 Then I got kicked out of the federal race twice by a LEOC that was run predominantly by
00:12:40.660 Caroline Maroney's campaign team.
00:12:42.560 And then my wife got kicked out of the PC caucus two weeks later.
00:12:46.740 And 19 of us got kicked out of the PC party in Cambridge.
00:12:49.920 And do you know, oh, do you know who was on that PC executive with Brian Patterson, Andrew,
00:12:54.740 who voted in favor of kicking me and Belinda and 17 others out of the Cambridge PC Riding
00:12:58.920 Association undemocratically?
00:13:01.120 Derek Sloan's riding president at the federal level.
00:13:04.160 He was on that executive.
00:13:05.820 But Derek doesn't like to say that.
00:13:07.300 He doesn't like to talk about his record and what he's done behind the scenes and who
00:13:11.360 he's working with behind the scenes.
00:13:13.680 So this is where we get to the crux of this.
00:13:16.400 And I get your emails.
00:13:17.540 I get all the party's emails.
00:13:18.860 And the amount of time that you spend talking about these issues and similar issues, when
00:13:24.880 you say your opponent is Doug Ford's PCs, makes it look like you're either threatened
00:13:29.980 or bothered by it.
00:13:31.340 So is that an accurate assessment by this party that you say has it out for you?
00:13:36.860 Not threatened.
00:13:38.240 But when someone makes allegations, it's important to answer to them.
00:13:42.720 Don't you think, Andrew?
00:13:43.940 Absolutely.
00:13:45.080 Absolutely.
00:13:45.780 But when we're talking about unity, both you and Derek say at the genesis of it that you
00:13:51.500 were open to this.
00:13:52.520 So you've both provided or your parties have both provided records of text messages going
00:13:57.780 back months about that meeting you referenced.
00:14:00.400 The Ontario party says that they called off that meeting, which it sounds like was going
00:14:04.540 forward when you went on the attack against Randy Hillier.
00:14:08.120 Is that accurate?
00:14:09.100 Is that why that meeting broke down?
00:14:11.320 You'll have to ask them.
00:14:13.300 We had two meetings with Pastor Michael Thiessen booked and Mike Thiessen canceled them.
00:14:18.540 Prior to that, we had been talking to Mike Thiessen and updating him inside information
00:14:23.300 on the New Blue Party of Ontario.
00:14:25.940 And Mike Thiessen came to a lunch meeting with a couple other pastors, including Pastor Aaron
00:14:29.900 Rock, looked us in the eye and said they were for the New Blue Party.
00:14:34.360 And they said, would you invite Randy Hillier?
00:14:36.660 Would you let Roman Baber in?
00:14:37.920 Would you let others in?
00:14:39.280 I said, sure.
00:14:40.080 And if they want to be the leader, let's have a leadership race.
00:14:42.260 And he came out of that meeting looking us in the eye, you know, quoting the Bible,
00:14:47.400 because that's what they do when they want you to believe them.
00:14:49.980 And they came out of that meeting and he ran off to a couple of events with Randy Hillier,
00:14:54.700 where Randy Hillier announced he was going to start a provincial party.
00:14:58.300 And when Randy Hillier's provincial party fell apart, well, first those meetings got canceled,
00:15:03.500 where I said to Derek, let's sit down, you and me, back in the fall.
00:15:06.420 And Derek Sloan swore to me on the phone he was sticking with federal politics, not interested
00:15:10.220 in provincial.
00:15:10.620 I even offered Derek and his wife to start the New Blue Riding Association in Hastings.
00:15:15.740 I said, maybe one of you would want to run.
00:15:17.960 Like, let's just sit down, have a coffee.
00:15:19.320 They canceled those meetings.
00:15:21.180 And after that, Mike Thiessen went into work behind the scenes to start a party with Derek
00:15:26.560 Sloan.
00:15:26.980 And it's interesting because Derek Sloan keeps preaching this unity.
00:15:32.040 But in every step he's taking federally or provincially, he's not interested in unity.
00:15:36.640 He couldn't work with Max Bernier after being in a caucus with Max Bernier.
00:15:40.620 He decided he can't run for Max.
00:15:43.280 And while I was sick, fighting cancer, and getting back on my feet, getting the cancer
00:15:48.260 out of my body, learning how to walk again, him and Randy and Max were touring around in
00:15:53.740 a caucus.
00:15:54.520 Right?
00:15:55.300 And here we are, two and a half years later, after Belinda was the first to stand up and
00:16:00.180 say, Doug Ford's lockdown bill is wrong.
00:16:02.120 Randy picked up on it.
00:16:03.360 Derek picked up on it.
00:16:04.440 And Max was campaigning on it.
00:16:06.140 Those three guys were in a caucus together.
00:16:09.340 And Derek couldn't get along with them.
00:16:11.740 So Randy Hillier is not part of Derek Sloan's party.
00:16:14.840 Derek Sloan wanted to run against Max Bernier federally.
00:16:17.940 But somehow it's everyone else's fault.
00:16:21.140 It's not Derek Sloan's fault.
00:16:22.540 And it's not the people behind them.
00:16:24.540 He has my phone number.
00:16:26.020 He could have picked up the phone at any time in the last seven months.
00:16:29.020 The last time he called me was to tell me he was leading a provincial party in Ontario
00:16:33.840 against the new blue.
00:16:35.420 There was no discussion on working together.
00:16:37.720 There was never a proposal.
00:16:39.440 There was never, I want to be the leader of a party.
00:16:41.400 There was nothing.
00:16:41.900 And he's doing it specifically to waste our time and respond to these things and to try
00:16:48.080 to stall us and our momentum going into June 2nd.
00:16:51.040 Now, you mentioned earlier that one of your, I say grievances, and I wouldn't read too much
00:16:56.520 into that, but one of your frustrations is that the Ontario party is running candidates
00:17:00.060 against new blue.
00:17:01.000 Now, one of the topics that came up in my discussion with Derek yesterday is that he had tried to
00:17:05.300 perhaps make an arrangement where you weren't running candidates against each other.
00:17:08.900 You'd have your own parties, you'd have your own leaders, but you wouldn't be galvanizing
00:17:12.780 each other's support.
00:17:13.700 And new blue has posted its response to the request for a meeting on that and derided it
00:17:19.600 as a secret backroom deal.
00:17:21.200 The same sort of thing that you say happens in the PCs.
00:17:23.660 Would that not have been an example of a positive discussion that you could have around unity?
00:17:29.480 Why was that meeting, which I think sounds like an entirely fair topic to broach between
00:17:35.220 two party leaders, why is that something that you felt was offensive to democracy?
00:17:39.920 Is it a realistic option, Andrew?
00:17:42.340 So the new blue party of Ontario has thousands of members and donors.
00:17:46.320 Do you know how many members the Ontario party has?
00:17:48.320 Zero.
00:17:48.520 I don't know.
00:17:49.400 Zero.
00:17:49.680 They don't have membership in their party.
00:17:52.020 And he talks about integrity and transparency and democracy.
00:17:55.620 He doesn't have one member of his party.
00:17:58.400 It's Derek Sloan.
00:17:59.820 They had a party constitution, this Ontario party that they created in 2018.
00:18:04.500 And they were going around telling us in 2020, when they were trying to talk to us about
00:18:10.200 taking over the Ontario party, that we're not allowed to change their party of constitution
00:18:14.540 or the party name.
00:18:15.900 This is what the board of the Ontario party, all two of them were saying.
00:18:19.580 And then they tore up that party of constitution and just put a new one in because there's
00:18:23.200 no members.
00:18:23.740 So they don't need to have a vote.
00:18:24.780 New blue party started a year and a half ago.
00:18:26.980 We've got thousands of members and donors riding presidents in place.
00:18:30.400 We have a board that makes decisions.
00:18:32.760 It's not the Derek Sloan show and his buddies in the back that remain nameless and secret.
00:18:37.940 So when he rebuffs us in September and October, and I tried to put it all aside, I said, you
00:18:43.720 know what?
00:18:44.400 Derek Sloan had a spy on my leadership team who set me up to send an email out and he
00:18:49.280 was working with Aaron O'Toole.
00:18:50.440 And we have people in the new blue team that worked on Derek Sloan's leadership and have
00:18:55.920 told me firsthand that he was on the phone with Aaron O'Toole coordinating attacks against
00:19:00.060 Lesley Lewis in that federal leadership.
00:19:02.160 But you know what?
00:19:02.880 I said, let bygones be bygones, okay?
00:19:05.500 And let me reach out to Derek on election day federally when it's not going to turn out
00:19:10.360 all well, okay?
00:19:11.200 And then I asked for a meeting.
00:19:13.020 Let's have a meeting.
00:19:13.780 And the meetings kept getting pushed off.
00:19:15.680 And then he came back in February or March, not him phoning me because, you know, he's
00:19:22.500 not a standup guy, so he can't pick up the phone.
00:19:24.220 He has other people saying, let's reach out to the new blue and let's tell them you guys
00:19:29.360 now have over a hundred candidates in place.
00:19:31.360 Well, we want you to stand down a bunch of your candidates.
00:19:34.920 So he wants me to issue an edict and act like Doug Ford does in his party and appoint candidates
00:19:40.880 and say, we're not running a full slate anymore because Derek Sloan has decided to show up
00:19:45.160 and he's going to scramble and put in candidates last minute, even though he has no brand awareness,
00:19:50.840 no literature, no platform, no lawn signs, nothing.
00:19:53.540 That is the most destructive proposal for a new party that anyone can think of.
00:19:58.780 And the only reason he would do that is to sabotage our efforts, not to work together.
00:20:03.300 Working together would be to say, wow, Jim and Belinda have been building this for over
00:20:07.000 a year, despite the fact that Jim was sick and they're back on their feet.
00:20:10.980 And I want to run provincially now because my time in federal politics didn't work out
00:20:15.940 so well.
00:20:16.340 So let me approach them about running federal provincially in Ontario.
00:20:20.020 He never did that.
00:20:20.940 He wasn't interested.
00:20:21.960 And in fact, when he was approaching us for a meeting, him and Rick Nichols hadn't even
00:20:26.780 committed to running in the provincial election.
00:20:29.000 They were asked and they were saying, well, we're still not sure if we're going to run the
00:20:31.920 provincial election.
00:20:32.560 So that letter that you unfortunately put up on your screen yesterday's show, fake news
00:20:37.520 is what that was, was a proposal for me to cancel a bunch of our candidates in favor of candidates
00:20:45.240 who don't agree with the new blue, who don't want to run on the new blueprint, which are
00:20:49.960 stuff like scrapping the $100 million per vote taxpayer subsidy of political parties in
00:20:55.160 Ontario, banning lobbyists from internal party politics, getting rid of the Toronto Star's
00:21:01.100 online gambling license, fighting against critical race theory and the petition that Belinda
00:21:06.540 read in the legislature that unfortunately, Derek Sloan and Rick Nichols didn't want to
00:21:10.240 promote Rick Nichols voted in favor of bill 67.
00:21:13.080 This is the critical race theory bill.
00:21:14.440 Yeah.
00:21:14.700 Yeah.
00:21:15.060 All those things that we're talking about, Derek Sloan and his candidates don't want to
00:21:17.860 talk about, don't want to talk about wind turbines and high electricity rates.
00:21:21.320 And he wanted me to cancel a bunch of our candidates going into our first election so we don't
00:21:25.760 run a full slate.
00:21:26.620 And that's a sabotage tactic.
00:21:28.280 So let's take the bigger picture look here.
00:21:31.800 You're a voter.
00:21:32.920 You are one of those people that we talked about at the beginning, Jim, that barely can
00:21:36.580 muster enough energy and interest and time to pay attention to the normal politics of
00:21:41.420 the liberal, the NDP, the PCs, let alone these new parties that don't yet have the name
00:21:45.920 recognition.
00:21:47.080 How are you supposed to come into this and see what just seems like a lot of people that
00:21:53.200 aren't willing to get along, that aren't able to put the cause of freedom forward?
00:21:56.660 Whoever is to blame, how is a voter supposed to work their way through this and have any
00:22:01.900 confidence that we could have the freedom-centered alternative that all of the people in the
00:22:07.500 Ontario party and the New Blue claim to want?
00:22:09.680 How is a voter supposed to navigate through this?
00:22:11.920 The voters that are looking for an option against the establishment have united against the
00:22:18.760 New Blue Party of Ontario.
00:22:20.340 And you're right.
00:22:21.240 If Derek Sloan united against or for?
00:22:24.120 Sorry, they've united against the PC party and the establishment parties for the New Blue
00:22:28.020 Party of Ontario.
00:22:29.160 We have 124 candidates in the full slate.
00:22:31.800 And we're seeing it locally in Cambridge and the surrounding ridings.
00:22:35.440 Every day we get momentum.
00:22:37.200 And Belinda's up for re-election.
00:22:38.840 And it's unfortunate what Derek Sloan did.
00:22:41.520 He's confused the issue.
00:22:43.400 He's created confusion for some.
00:22:47.520 But there are over 10 million voters in Ontario.
00:22:50.160 And our goal is to make the New Blue Party raise awareness for the New Blue Party in every
00:22:56.180 single riding in our first election and keep moving forward after June 2nd.
00:23:00.320 And we can't control what guys like Derek Sloan and his buddies that consider themselves important
00:23:05.960 figures in the movement, as he said in your thing, in your interview with him.
00:23:09.960 We are important, important people.
00:23:12.260 And we should be treated important as important people in these meetings.
00:23:16.400 The New Blue Party of Ontario is representing hardworking parents and people in every single
00:23:21.400 riding.
00:23:21.940 And it would be a shame if, because of Derek Sloan's efforts, we fall short in Cambridge
00:23:27.680 and Belinda doesn't get re-elected.
00:23:29.360 It would be a shame, or in some other ridings.
00:23:32.140 But largely, this is a distraction that has slowed us down a little bit.
00:23:36.480 But there's 10 million more voters in Ontario that we have to look at, Andrew.
00:23:40.560 And all we can do is keep moving forward and keep talking about the things that the establishment
00:23:46.160 parties and Derek Sloan don't want to talk about.
00:23:49.440 And that's how we're getting more and more people interested in the New Blue Party.
00:23:53.240 Will you subject yourself to a leadership review after the election?
00:23:57.160 We have a board, Andrew, and we're going to sit down and the board's going to make a
00:24:01.600 determination.
00:24:02.300 We also have members and we have a party constitution.
00:24:04.800 And there's triggers in place for members and riding associations to have their voices heard
00:24:10.200 on policy.
00:24:10.860 And we're going to have future conventions face to face.
00:24:12.920 We're the only new party that had nominations going into this election.
00:24:19.400 We have members and donors in every single riding.
00:24:22.340 And we are a grassroots party and are committed to that at all aspects.
00:24:26.580 So you're already jumping to the leadership review.
00:24:28.580 We haven't even gone through our first election campaign.
00:24:32.320 But I think the leadership speaks for itself, Andrew.
00:24:35.220 We've put this together in a year and a half, despite some personal battles, despite distractions
00:24:39.340 from guys like Derek Sloan and Randy Hillier.
00:24:42.380 And we're going to keep pushing forward.
00:24:44.300 And on June 2nd, hopefully Belinda will get reelected and others will get elected.
00:24:50.240 And the best is yet to come in Ontario.
00:24:53.060 I am jumping ahead, but I think it's a relevant question because earlier you said that there was
00:24:56.980 a time when you would have been open to having perhaps a different leader to New Blue if the
00:25:00.920 members chose them.
00:25:01.860 So you as the leader could go to the board and go to the members and say, I'm voluntarily
00:25:05.840 opening up the door to a review of my leadership.
00:25:08.940 And I'm asking if you would do that.
00:25:11.060 Why would I do that now, 12 days before the election?
00:25:14.300 Let's wait until see.
00:25:15.140 It's a commitment to the members that you say are the backbone of your party, that you
00:25:18.640 think they should have a say no matter what happens after this election.
00:25:21.400 If enough members want to have a leadership review, the board would consider it.
00:25:25.580 And of course, I'm very confident in my leadership.
00:25:27.820 I'm the one that's proposed a leadership race for Randy Hillier, for Roman Babber, for
00:25:32.340 Derek Sloan, for whoever wanted it.
00:25:34.280 But we're not going to have a leadership race for someone who's not a member of the
00:25:37.380 party or for a fraud.
00:25:39.340 I'm not talking about a race.
00:25:40.120 I'm talking about a review.
00:25:41.220 If the members want to call for a leadership review, we have triggers in the party to
00:25:46.400 a call for that going to the board.
00:25:48.300 But right now we're focused on June 2nd, Andrew.
00:25:50.660 And you're jumping ahead beyond June 2nd to talk about replacing or reviewing the leader
00:25:56.320 of the party.
00:25:56.940 We still got 12, 13 days left in the election.
00:26:00.000 That's fair.
00:26:00.820 So let me ask you a question I asked Derek yesterday.
00:26:03.300 What do you consider a win?
00:26:04.460 You're a new party.
00:26:05.440 You've talked about this momentum.
00:26:06.680 What do you consider a victory in your scenario for June 2nd?
00:26:10.380 We're very happy with where we're at.
00:26:12.140 We wanted to establish a party for June 2nd because many people, including some of Derek's
00:26:17.280 friends, like Mike Thiessen, said we need another option on June 2nd.
00:26:21.240 And we've already, in our first campaign, have 124 candidates on ballots and 124 ridings.
00:26:27.020 And we were the first to register 124.
00:26:29.940 And so we're very happy with our progress.
00:26:31.760 And our goal has always been clear.
00:26:33.140 Challenge the left, balance the narrative, change the course.
00:26:36.520 And beyond that, it's up to the voters.
00:26:38.340 And we're trying every day getting lawn signs out.
00:26:40.780 We've got a ground game.
00:26:41.960 You'll see the social media pictures.
00:26:43.320 Our candidates are canvassing and raising awareness.
00:26:46.700 And we're going to keep going beyond June 2nd.
00:26:49.600 Derek Sloan's not going to go beyond June 2nd.
00:26:51.840 It doesn't sound like he's committed to it.
00:26:53.340 But we're committed to provincial politics in Ontario for the long term and to keep moving
00:26:58.220 forward.
00:26:59.020 And we'll see what the voters decide on June 2nd.
00:27:02.240 And if all goes well, hopefully Belinda will get reelected and we'll get close to electing
00:27:07.140 other MPPs into Queen's Park so we can continue to change the course and balance and challenge
00:27:12.800 the left.
00:27:13.480 These establishment parties are out of control.
00:27:16.240 If you end up in a situation where you had a couple of new blue MPPs who collectively held
00:27:21.320 the balance of power in the legislature, could you even work with the PCs?
00:27:25.540 Could you even work with this party, given all that you've said about it and your history
00:27:29.660 with that party?
00:27:31.300 Well, there's no deals with the PC party.
00:27:33.660 They break every...
00:27:34.720 They don't even follow their own constitution.
00:27:36.320 They don't even have free and fair votes.
00:27:39.100 So how can you cut a quote unquote deal on an arrangement?
00:27:43.160 You would be making an arrangement with them just like you would with Derek Sloan, knowing
00:27:46.860 that they're going to break it, knowing that they're not going to follow their commitments
00:27:49.960 or keep their commitments, just like Derek Sloan doesn't keep his commitments.
00:27:54.460 And we'd have to look at it vote by vote if that's the case.
00:28:00.360 But we're not getting ahead of ourselves, Andrew.
00:28:03.060 Andrew, we got 13 days left in this election and we're a new party a year and a half in
00:28:08.480 and the PCs and Liberals are brands that are over 100 years old.
00:28:11.980 And there's no shortcut for us.
00:28:14.380 There's no quick zip on the elevator ride from the first floor to the top of the building.
00:28:19.520 We got to do it step by step and the hard way and keep building momentum.
00:28:23.400 And that's what we're going to do.
00:28:25.360 Jim Carajalios, leader of the New Blue Party.
00:28:28.140 Good to talk to you, Jim.
00:28:28.880 Thanks for coming on.
00:28:30.020 Thanks, Andrew.
00:28:30.980 Jim Carajalios, leader of the New Blue Party of Ontario.
00:28:34.620 And what we will do and what I'd like to do if the leaders are available and we've extended
00:28:39.920 invitations to Premier Doug Ford as well is to come on and actually talk about policy.
00:28:44.300 But what I wanted to do this week, as I said at the outset, is help people navigate through
00:28:49.260 the bad blood, the very legitimate bad blood that you see between both.
00:28:54.180 I shouldn't even say legitimate, but the very real bad blood that you see between both of
00:28:57.960 these parties.
00:28:58.580 So I don't know if it's cleared things up for you or made it more difficult to understand
00:29:02.760 which way you want to go as a voter.
00:29:04.160 But all we do is give you the information and you can decide for yourself what to do
00:29:08.360 with it.
00:29:08.800 We've got to take a quick break here.
00:29:10.460 When we come back, we're going to go from the little picture to the big picture and talk
00:29:14.320 about Canada in the world.
00:29:16.140 That's up next with Irvin Student here on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:29:19.200 Stay tuned.
00:29:22.800 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:29:28.180 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:29:31.720 We often talk about the internal dynamics and divides in Canada, the political fault lines,
00:29:38.080 the cultural fault lines.
00:29:39.600 And these are very important subjects and they can't be discounted even in what I'd like
00:29:43.460 to discuss now.
00:29:44.260 But I do want to take a much, much bigger picture, a global picture here of this country
00:29:49.920 and where it fits into the world and how the domestic and the international, the domestic
00:29:55.040 and the global, how they tend to intersect.
00:29:56.860 And there have been a lot of things I've been reflecting on as I read a book by a great
00:30:01.520 friend of this program, which is Irvin Student, Canada Must Think for Itself, 10 Theses for
00:30:08.160 Our Country's Survival and Success in the 21st Century.
00:30:11.480 So the title right there suggests a level of optimism.
00:30:14.300 But if you look through the books, there are some very clear issues.
00:30:16.880 I don't want to say problems, but certainly challenges and issues that are identified that
00:30:21.160 I want to dig into.
00:30:22.320 Irvin Student joins me on the program again.
00:30:25.040 Irvin, good to talk to you, sir.
00:30:26.140 Thanks for coming on today.
00:30:27.700 Great to be back.
00:30:28.420 Thanks for all your work, Andrew.
00:30:29.760 I want to skip ahead here to one particular thesis that you put forward, and then we
00:30:34.500 can talk about the bigger picture, because I think this one captures what's at stake here.
00:30:38.760 You say, if Canada survives the century, it will be either a great power or a deep vassal
00:30:44.380 state.
00:30:44.820 And when I read through that, what you're saying it sounds like is that, you know, we're
00:30:48.080 on the cusp of something here, but we could go in either direction.
00:30:51.120 And very real challenges facing our lawmakers, our citizens, civil society right now, really
00:30:57.780 affect in a dramatic way what things are going to look like in 2100.
00:31:03.800 That's right.
00:31:04.560 And I should say at the outset, first of all, thanks for your deep curiosity about that thesis.
00:31:10.300 And one ought not to take offense when I say we have a potentially deeply vassalized country
00:31:16.060 in front of us, that's, we're all in a common scenario, but we're coming out of a pandemic
00:31:20.840 that has presented the country with, as I mentioned on your show, seven or eight systems
00:31:25.060 crises.
00:31:25.500 And we're coming into a world in which there's obvious conflict, but more tightly, if you
00:31:29.780 look at our borders, we've got America to the south, China to the west, Russia to the
00:31:35.340 north across the Arctic, and Europe to the east.
00:31:37.500 All told, ACRE is the four point game.
00:31:41.500 And if you do the math, it's 15 combinations of push, pull and pressure on our territory
00:31:46.380 by these great powers at our, at our doorstep and literally at our doorstep.
00:31:50.580 And I say, if we wish to survive, we either have to up our game hugely, in which case we'll
00:31:56.700 become amongst, we'll be among the great powers at our doorstep.
00:32:00.420 And these are at our doorstep, literally, or we have to say, it's just too big for us.
00:32:05.300 And we vassalized even further into the country we know best, the United States, which is the
00:32:11.420 most probable scenario.
00:32:13.560 And it could be a good bet still, but because the United States is far weaker in the world
00:32:18.040 of tomorrow, in my view, far less wise and could even be predatory on us and really push
00:32:23.680 us around in their own interest, it could be very painful indeed.
00:32:27.480 So those are the two scenarios and also suggests, as I mentioned in the book, that we should
00:32:32.620 never again call ourselves a middle power.
00:32:34.560 It is structurally impossible.
00:32:36.020 We either are a deeply vassalized state, in which case, let's not pretend we are an extension
00:32:40.120 of American power for better or worse, or we are a great power amongst the great powers
00:32:44.960 at our doorstep, which requires a huge upping of the level of thinking, resources, and ambition.
00:32:51.660 You know, a line from a movie jumps out when you say that though, you know, and I'm just
00:32:56.180 envisioning Justin Trudeau saying, you know, we're a great power, we're just having trouble
00:32:59.920 getting the word out, you know, because in order to be a great power and to wield that
00:33:04.100 power, you have to have that power respected and accepted and acknowledged elsewhere.
00:33:08.940 And I don't think Canada is there yet.
00:33:10.860 So if we say that point A is where we are now and point C is Canada being a great power,
00:33:17.940 what's point B?
00:33:21.360 Well, we're tending towards A and A minus and A minus minus.
00:33:26.480 I mean, the trajectory is increased vassalization.
00:33:29.960 And with these major powers at our doorstep playing across our territory and the conflict
00:33:33.900 between the United States and China over Meng Wanzhou and even the USMCA is just a small
00:33:40.940 symptom of the great cuts that can happen once these powers start to play across our territory
00:33:45.220 with us unable to play.
00:33:46.820 So we go increasingly vassalized.
00:33:49.100 I don't like to do Twitter feed or rhetoric about power.
00:33:53.780 That's why I say we cannot call ourselves a great power on the structure I present.
00:33:57.120 We're either vassalized or a major power.
00:33:59.840 I want to disabuse also your distinguished listeners of even the idea of a great power
00:34:04.420 because it has a moral connotation.
00:34:06.600 We're either a term setting country or a term, deeply term taking.
00:34:10.140 I would like us to be a term setting country in our own interests and indeed for the world.
00:34:15.080 And that requires well beyond the respect of others or before the respect of others.
00:34:19.540 And this is your point B, resources.
00:34:22.060 And the resources they underpin power and thinking, the thinking of a term setting country,
00:34:28.480 we're not even there, are much more than education.
00:34:31.080 Of course they are education, but they are economic resources, diplomatic relationships richly
00:34:36.220 around the world, military resources, territorial resources, natural resources,
00:34:42.280 population demography, the mix of demography, the commercial product,
00:34:47.380 and many other things besides, including transportation.
00:34:50.520 And all of this needs to be choreographed in the service of a term taking future,
00:34:55.100 term setting future.
00:34:56.560 And if not, then we ought not to pretend.
00:34:58.940 That means we might make a great bet that the United States will yet win this century.
00:35:03.160 Good on us, but we may not survive that century.
00:35:07.000 We may become very miserable and divided indeed.
00:35:10.120 The reverse is a huge investment doubling down on what we need to survive in a century
00:35:15.140 that doesn't promise us anything and in which no country is thinking about Canada.
00:35:18.600 We have to think for ourselves.
00:35:20.560 The preface to thinking for ourselves, all those material resources,
00:35:24.080 which will allow us to think at a higher level.
00:35:27.580 When you look at the global landscape, I mean, including the countries that you've just
00:35:31.200 acknowledged there, obviously size, population size, and GDP are very significant determining
00:35:38.440 factors in overall influence.
00:35:41.840 Government style, it doesn't appear is as much.
00:35:44.580 You've got China, an authoritarian dictatorship.
00:35:47.100 You've got Russia.
00:35:48.100 You've got the United States.
00:35:49.500 I mean, three vastly different approaches to government, but they all have been in that
00:35:52.700 top echelon as far as powerful nations are concerned.
00:35:56.120 So, I mean, if you are looking at a country like Canada, and you're trying,
00:35:59.580 and I know you have a chapter on the challenge of planning, but if you were to plan Canada's
00:36:03.660 future and really ensure that Canada is, as you mentioned, that term-setting country,
00:36:08.440 you can't overnight control the GDP issue.
00:36:11.340 Population size takes time, and other countries' populations are going to be growing as well.
00:36:16.120 So, the relative advantage might not be there.
00:36:18.920 What is it that you can leverage to become a term-setter?
00:36:22.900 It's a great question, and it's central to the book.
00:36:26.500 And by the way, for your listeners, again, when we say planning, we ought not to be Twitter-ish
00:36:32.380 about it.
00:36:33.000 Every country plans, and Canada better plan properly in a democratic context if we're
00:36:37.760 going to survive beyond tomorrow.
00:36:39.600 What's our big...
00:36:40.020 You're not talking about a command economy.
00:36:41.560 Not a command economy.
00:36:42.180 I'm talking about thinking and resources, which every country needs, and we've had historically.
00:36:46.840 The problem in the 21st century is how do great democracies, federal democracies, no less,
00:36:51.740 plan?
00:36:52.120 How do we think beyond the tweet, beyond our nose, beyond the current crises?
00:36:56.420 Now, what's our big move?
00:36:57.440 The big move I commend in the book, and I think I articulated in part at a keynote at which you
00:37:04.120 were present and colleagues in Calgary a few weeks ago, is that the North is melting.
00:37:10.040 The North is opening up.
00:37:12.020 Our big move in response to climate change is not to imagine from the South or from Toronto
00:37:16.480 or Vancouver or St. John, New Brunswick.
00:37:19.700 They're going to physically somehow transform the climate through domestic action.
00:37:25.820 Nay, our responsible move is that the Arctic is opening up.
00:37:29.800 We ought to push our imagination northward.
00:37:32.820 Our Arctic, Canadian alone, is the size of the European Union.
00:37:36.540 The population in Canada of that European Union-sized territory, which is 40% of our territory
00:37:42.000 in total, is 115,000.
00:37:44.840 That's the size of Red Deer, Alberta or Ajax, Ontario.
00:37:51.000 That's not enough to do anything with a great respect to all my Arctic colleagues.
00:37:55.200 And at that Arctic space, we have the Russians pushing on us, the Americans, the Chinese in
00:38:00.140 Greece and the Europeans.
00:38:01.340 We're surrounded by great powers.
00:38:02.600 How do we embed them in a peaceful framework that makes us rich and saves the world?
00:38:08.260 And the idea is to make our North, through cities like Whitehorse, Inuvik and Yellowknife,
00:38:13.620 the center of the world.
00:38:15.360 And we are the center of the world geographically, just not through the South, where we're an appendix
00:38:19.820 to the bigger empires.
00:38:21.140 Through the North, we are the center of four continents, which provide us with a market
00:38:26.660 size, seven to one in ratio, greater than the American continental market alone, including
00:38:33.420 the American continental market.
00:38:35.020 So it's an economic vision through the North.
00:38:37.300 It's a geopolitical vision of peace, and it is one of national sovereignty, where we assert
00:38:43.240 ourselves in a territory that we would be negligent to ignore.
00:38:47.840 We can't ignore it because then the country will collapse.
00:38:50.300 That requires a shift in our resources and our imagination, our political pressure to the
00:38:56.400 North, where we imagine that everything happens along the American borders.
00:38:59.700 So push it up.
00:39:01.020 And that's our big exit from all the multiple crises coming out of the pandemic as well.
00:39:05.240 It is interesting because going back to, I mean, John A. McDonald's national policy,
00:39:09.840 the greatest challenge in Canada and building a nation was uniting the country east to west
00:39:15.260 from British Columbia to the Maritimes.
00:39:18.100 And that did, I mean, the Maritimes were a little bit later on, but obviously that did
00:39:21.940 happen through rail.
00:39:22.980 We live in an era in which we don't rely on rail travel to get around.
00:39:26.980 Why, I mean, when, I guess, would you say that that fundamental axis shifted from an east-west
00:39:32.360 one to a north-south one?
00:39:34.080 When the book came out.
00:39:37.160 Good answer.
00:39:38.260 It remains the case that our-
00:39:40.520 So it's theoretical at this point.
00:39:42.000 Like there needs to be an attitude shift to recognize this.
00:39:45.120 Absolutely.
00:39:45.940 And unfortunately, the last two years have shown that Canada does not respond at the leadership
00:39:52.500 level, at all levels of government, across the parties to crisis and to my chagrin.
00:39:59.780 So we don't respond with mobilization to crisis.
00:40:03.760 A la différence with the Americans, the Chinese, the Russians, many Europeans, they know how
00:40:08.420 to mobilize.
00:40:08.940 The Israelis, the Persians, the Turks, they've got a mobilization capacity.
00:40:14.140 We don't have that.
00:40:15.080 So that means that in this great four-point or 15 combination game that I present, we
00:40:21.780 could be crippled very quickly at a strategic level without even moving.
00:40:25.600 So we better seize the moment while we can before it closes or before other of these other
00:40:31.000 more mobilizable countries do it for us in their name.
00:40:34.820 So the part of the book is to change what I call the mental map of our country.
00:40:40.720 Basically, for all Canadians who love our country, educated and less educated doesn't
00:40:45.240 matter.
00:40:46.340 Look at the map.
00:40:47.580 Look at what happens through the South.
00:40:49.220 And as I suggest, as the North opens up, because the melting of the Arctic is a new phenomenon,
00:40:55.160 the rise of China in modern Canada is a new phenomenon.
00:40:59.160 So the axis of activity will be increasingly in the North and the West, which also
00:41:04.820 begins to solve the Western problem or the national unity tension in Canada.
00:41:10.460 Through the North, we are closer to Asia and China in particular than are the Australians.
00:41:16.340 Through the North, we are closer to St. Petersburg and the former Soviet space, including Ukraine,
00:41:22.720 than is Western Europe.
00:41:24.760 Through the North, we are closer to the Nordic states of the European Union than we are from
00:41:29.540 Toronto.
00:41:30.500 And we are close to the United States through Alaska and several other northern states.
00:41:36.020 All told, a market of $2 billion, which is seven times larger than the $330 million or so
00:41:43.480 in the United States today.
00:41:45.440 So it requires a huge change in the imagination.
00:41:48.680 It is exciting for our young people who have suffered most during the pandemic.
00:41:53.300 And it is sufficiently large and urgent to command our resources such that we're able to get
00:41:58.820 out of our deep crises.
00:42:00.020 And there are seven or eight crises that require much more than just road building, tax cuts,
00:42:04.020 or rhetoric.
00:42:05.100 We really need to mobilize.
00:42:06.440 And I think that is sufficiently large to give us an exit and an exciting tomorrow.
00:42:11.340 It's difficult to do anything globally when you have the internal unity challenges.
00:42:17.960 And I know national unity is a very important chapter in this book.
00:42:21.480 And I wanted to ask you about this because you have a lot of countries in the world like
00:42:24.960 Australia and New Zealand that have indigenous populations.
00:42:28.260 You've got countries in the world that have, you know, that are bilingual, Belgium, trilingual,
00:42:34.100 quadrilingual, like Switzerland.
00:42:35.560 I mean, these are not dynamics that are unique to Canada, although Canada does seem to have
00:42:40.220 more of them because we have the indigenous issue.
00:42:43.480 We have the bilingualism.
00:42:45.240 And if you take into account indigenous languages, of which there are many, you've got countless
00:42:50.120 language groups that exist in this country.
00:42:52.640 And then you also have very fundamentally different cultures between French culture and English
00:42:58.180 culture in Canada.
00:42:59.480 And even in English Canada, an Ontarian and a British Columbian and an Albertan, I think,
00:43:04.080 have very different, perhaps less different than a Francophone and an Anglophone.
00:43:08.140 So there are a lot of different things that need to work to keep Canada united.
00:43:13.300 And I think we tend to take for granted that we're all committed to Canada in the same way.
00:43:18.080 How do you solve, if you can, that unity challenge?
00:43:22.060 It's a central question because we must solve our external challenges just as we solve the
00:43:26.880 domestic ones.
00:43:27.540 And you're right.
00:43:28.020 I do treat national unity centrally.
00:43:29.920 In the book, we have four national unity crises coming out of the pandemic.
00:43:35.080 The first one is basic borders dividing the country in regulatory terms, sometimes in physical
00:43:39.720 terms across the jurisdictions.
00:43:41.880 The second one is the Western question, which is still wicked and maybe growing in profile.
00:43:48.540 The third is the Quebec question is still alive.
00:43:51.280 And if it ever does explode, whatever people think on Twitter, it would compromise the entire
00:43:58.540 country quite quickly.
00:43:59.660 And the fourth one, as you articulate, is the indigenous challenge.
00:44:03.480 The Western challenge, I articulate, can in part be solved through the North.
00:44:08.120 The North is the fix to exit, as I argue.
00:44:11.400 Rather than being pedantic, say we just redistribute or give more resources, more power to the West,
00:44:16.580 the opening of the North to huge markets is psychologically very seductive to the West,
00:44:22.240 which is very attached to at least Yukon and Northwest territories.
00:44:27.380 The Quebec question, I argue, is one to be managed.
00:44:31.520 And I do talk about language in there.
00:44:33.400 I talk about a national languages strategy, which will get us beyond what I think is a very,
00:44:37.860 very low standard hump that we've allowed to occupy our political imagination.
00:44:45.020 You talk about bilingual, trilingual, quadrilingual countries in Europe, and the same is true
00:44:49.880 in Asia and the Middle East and Africa.
00:44:51.980 We're too obsessed with bilingualism.
00:44:53.800 So I tried to break the logic and say that tomorrow, as we plan education post-pandemic,
00:44:59.860 we ought to imagine that everyone will simply speak English and French without blinking.
00:45:04.100 And then they choose a third language because we need a third language for the indigenous
00:45:07.900 cause domestically, which helps to address that, but also for our wicked international
00:45:14.320 circumstance, which I described.
00:45:16.360 I talk about taking lessons from Northern Aboriginal Indigenous self-government treaties.
00:45:23.120 There are something like 26 self-government arrangements in all of Canada, mostly in the
00:45:28.060 North, and they're very, very practical and so far have been productive.
00:45:32.080 And they're much, they're outside of the Indian Act.
00:45:33.960 And I think these are huge examples that we ought to multiply.
00:45:36.600 If only we understood how the North operates.
00:45:40.200 And finally, on the borders to our country that have been erected domestically, that needs
00:45:45.820 to be unwound yesterday.
00:45:47.620 And there must be a commission that assiduously unwinds all of the regulations that were improvised
00:45:54.060 and unfurled on the territory, militating against national unity immediately.
00:45:59.240 We don't have time to go through the book page by page, and I don't think we'd want to because
00:46:04.460 then people don't have a reason to buy it.
00:46:05.880 So do have a look at Canada Must Think For Itself for Yourself, so you can think for yourself
00:46:11.480 about how Canada can think for itself.
00:46:13.560 But I guess if we want to tie what we have covered up in a bow here, Irvin, let me ask
00:46:17.940 you where the responsibility ultimately lies.
00:46:20.920 Because government has to be just as a matter of, not just as a matter of law, but I think
00:46:25.360 is a matter of the law of nature as well, responsive to the people it represents.
00:46:30.120 It needs the consent of the governed.
00:46:31.520 So the government cannot start centrally planning in a way that is unhealthy in a democratic society.
00:46:36.920 But government can certainly guide and government can shepherd.
00:46:40.080 But individual people are the ones that need to decide what they want the future of their
00:46:44.380 country to be.
00:46:45.120 So you've put out the roadmap here.
00:46:47.120 Who do you think it is that is best suited or can take this up and move on these things?
00:46:52.420 History suggests that it will take just a small group of leaders who have bathed in this type
00:47:00.660 of thinking to move the country.
00:47:02.660 And it can happen very fast.
00:47:03.980 Now when you say leaders, intellectuals, political leaders, media figures, or a combination?
00:47:08.240 All of it.
00:47:08.540 Even if you look at the Quebec Revolution, the Quiet Revolution in the 60s and then in practice
00:47:14.460 in the 70s and 80s, it was executed by a small group of people who were debating and thinking
00:47:19.620 in that unfurled ambition at all levels of society.
00:47:23.360 Politics, obviously, to begin with, politics is central in a good way.
00:47:27.140 So leadership is central.
00:47:28.860 And the converse scenario is devastating for the country.
00:47:32.240 In the absence of such leadership, and unfortunately that's been the case throughout the pandemic,
00:47:36.580 the country could collapse.
00:47:37.940 And I mentioned the 60-year rule there.
00:47:39.760 The countries tend to last an average of 60 years in the modern sense, after which they
00:47:44.260 collapse through domestic or external circumstances.
00:47:47.260 And we're well past due, that means we have to work that much harder to keep our country
00:47:51.540 a going and vital concern.
00:47:53.860 Irvin Student would encourage people to check out his book, Canada Must Think for Itself.
00:47:59.200 Irvin, always a pleasure.
00:48:00.220 Thanks for coming on.
00:48:01.220 Pleasure is mine.
00:48:02.420 That was Irvin Student.
00:48:03.760 Some nice big picture topics as you head into the weekend here.
00:48:07.900 And as I've mentioned at the beginning of the show and in the last couple shows, I am going
00:48:11.960 to be in the next, actually, I might even be on a plane right now, depending on when this
00:48:15.460 comes out.
00:48:15.800 So this one's pre-recorded.
00:48:16.980 As I mentioned on the previous shows and earlier on, I'm actually on my way to Davos,
00:48:21.540 Switzerland.
00:48:21.980 In fact, when this comes out, I might even be on a plane.
00:48:24.340 So I am going to be not doing the regular Andrew Lawton show next week as I cover the
00:48:28.500 World Economic Forum annual meeting.
00:48:30.420 But we will have lots of coverage at True North.
00:48:32.440 So I hope you do stay tuned for that.
00:48:34.140 And we'll talk to you upon my return next week.
00:48:37.200 Hope you have a great weekend.
00:48:38.360 This is the Andrew Lawton show on True North.
00:48:40.440 Thank you.
00:48:40.900 God bless.
00:48:41.480 And good day to you all.
00:48:42.320 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton show.
00:48:45.120 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.
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