Juno News - July 27, 2020


Whipped Votes and Forced Lockdown (feat. Belinda Karahalios)


Episode Stats


Length

39 minutes

Words per minute

184.55586

Word count

7,299

Sentence count

400

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Coming up, Belinda Carajalios on her ejection from the PC caucus, John Carpe on fighting for your civil liberties, and CBC is pushing an agenda but what else is new? The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.740 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.920 Coming up, Belinda Karajalios on her ejection from the PC caucus,
00:00:17.040 John Carpe on fighting for your civil liberties,
00:00:19.580 and CBC is pushing an agenda, but what else is new?
00:00:24.880 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:30.800 Hello everyone, welcome to another edition of the Andrew Lawton Show,
00:00:34.680 Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:38.220 We are going to get right into the thick of things in this particular show
00:00:42.460 because it has been a busy week and a busy few days for politics,
00:00:47.500 not just in Canada, but specifically in Ontario,
00:00:50.840 where a member of provincial parliament,
00:00:52.960 which if you're outside of Ontario is the Ontario equivalent of an MLA,
00:00:57.200 was booted from the Progressive Conservative Governments Caucus
00:01:01.420 after she voted against a measure that she says was a gross overreach
00:01:06.200 of the authority of the Premier's Office.
00:01:09.120 The bill in question was Bill 195,
00:01:12.080 a bill that would ultimately give the Premier's Office
00:01:14.800 the right to make some unilateral changes
00:01:17.000 with regard to Ontario's emergency declaration,
00:01:20.560 thus making it so that legislators,
00:01:23.240 the people elected to manage the day-to-day affairs of the province,
00:01:26.860 wouldn't have to or wouldn't even be able to.
00:01:29.880 Belinda Carajalios, who we've actually had on this show before,
00:01:33.440 she is an MPP for the Riding of Cambridge
00:01:36.000 and also, as the name would suggest,
00:01:38.160 the wife of Jim Carajalios,
00:01:40.240 the former leadership candidate for the Conservative Party of Canada.
00:01:44.940 Belinda Carajalios voted against this bill,
00:01:47.680 her own government's bill,
00:01:49.240 and moments later, it seemed,
00:01:51.220 was actually kicked out of the PC caucus.
00:01:54.400 And I want to talk about
00:01:55.880 not just the lead-up to her voting against this bill,
00:01:58.780 but also the ejection from caucus
00:02:00.720 and what it means for the state of the Conservatives in Ontario
00:02:04.360 and also what it means for the state of democracy
00:02:07.440 and the ability for representatives
00:02:09.640 to actually represent their constituents.
00:02:13.040 Joining me on the line now is Cambridge MPP,
00:02:15.700 now independent Cambridge MPP, Belinda Carajalios.
00:02:19.220 Belinda, good to talk to you again.
00:02:20.440 Thanks very much for coming on today.
00:02:22.580 Good morning, Andrew.
00:02:23.320 Good to see you again.
00:02:24.020 Thank you for having me.
00:02:25.460 So let's begin with the actual crux of this,
00:02:29.500 the decision that you made to vote against this bill.
00:02:33.100 You were talking about in a press release
00:02:35.420 that you sent out when you voted against this,
00:02:38.000 that there had been a lot of legal analysis,
00:02:40.260 a lot of criticism from lawyers,
00:02:42.140 civil liberties experts, even the Nurses Association,
00:02:45.900 that this would be a gross overreach.
00:02:48.300 Even so, your entire government or your former party
00:02:51.700 was going after this, supporting this.
00:02:53.860 Why was this for you the hill to die on?
00:02:56.560 So, you know, back in November of last year,
00:02:59.620 I tabled my first private members bill, Bill 150.
00:03:02.500 And that was in regards to transparency
00:03:05.140 and transparency and accountability
00:03:08.780 with internal party elections.
00:03:10.620 And, you know, democracy has always meant a great deal to me
00:03:13.400 and to many, many Ontarians and Canadians.
00:03:16.940 And, you know, when I got my briefing on the bill,
00:03:20.100 so I got it before caucus did because of my role
00:03:23.320 as a parliamentary assistant to the Solicitor General.
00:03:26.080 And I got the briefing.
00:03:28.080 And, you know, without actually seeing the actual hard copy of the bill,
00:03:32.040 let me make that clear.
00:03:32.820 And it sounds okay, right?
00:03:35.500 It sounds like, yeah, we need to have flexibility
00:03:37.100 with these emergency orders just in case.
00:03:40.140 Fine.
00:03:40.880 Then we got the following day a really short briefing at caucus.
00:03:44.680 It could have been later that day.
00:03:45.620 But anyways, it was either the day after or the same day.
00:03:49.500 And the bill was tabled, right?
00:03:51.380 So there was no real room to have any input on this.
00:03:54.560 So then I got a copy of the bill right here.
00:03:58.300 Got a copy of the bill.
00:03:59.440 And I decided to read through it on my own
00:04:01.840 and to cross-reference to the acts that are referenced in here.
00:04:06.460 So the Health Act and the Emergency Measures Protection Act,
00:04:08.900 the EMPCA, I believe is the red acronym.
00:04:13.500 And what really stood out for me was the fact that,
00:04:17.860 okay, we can have this flexibility.
00:04:20.680 And it had to be, you know, we can renew it every 30 days.
00:04:23.300 But there was no debate.
00:04:25.060 There was no vote.
00:04:26.040 There was no democratic process through the whole thing.
00:04:30.820 And that did not sit well with me.
00:04:33.600 Because, sorry, go ahead.
00:04:35.920 Well, I was just going to say that what's interesting there
00:04:38.200 is that when the pandemic was in its very early stages,
00:04:41.920 this seems very similar to what the federal government
00:04:45.280 under Justin Trudeau tried to do.
00:04:47.100 And everyone in Canada, especially on the right,
00:04:49.780 was finding that unconscionable and outrageous.
00:04:52.680 And here we are a few months later,
00:04:53.880 and it sounds like the exact same thing
00:04:55.720 was what was being put forward provincially
00:04:57.920 by many of the same people
00:04:59.180 who were criticizing the federal government.
00:05:01.480 Precisely.
00:05:02.080 And that was very glaring to me.
00:05:04.160 It was, you know, like you said, March.
00:05:06.180 In March of this year, Justin Trudeau tried to do this.
00:05:08.740 And everyone was up in arms.
00:05:09.960 And, oh my gosh, he doesn't care about democracy.
00:05:11.580 He wants a dictatorship.
00:05:12.520 And then, you know, the provincial conservatives
00:05:16.960 are doing it in Ontario, and no one says anything.
00:05:19.540 And people are saying, well, you've got to trust us.
00:05:21.140 We're going to do the right thing.
00:05:22.020 And I'm saying, no, you cannot trust any one government.
00:05:25.800 I don't care what political stripe you are.
00:05:28.620 And, you know, you Democrat, Liberal, Conservative,
00:05:31.340 you still need to have some type of discourse and debate.
00:05:34.320 That is what Canadians and Ontarians deserve.
00:05:37.300 And that's what we should be doing.
00:05:38.500 Pardon me, because at the end of the day,
00:05:40.300 as elected representatives, we are accountable.
00:05:42.520 And if I have one individual making decisions
00:05:46.460 for all of Cambridge without actually consulting with them,
00:05:49.400 I have a real problem with that.
00:05:52.120 A lot of the media coverage about this
00:05:54.800 has indicated that some of your colleagues in caucus
00:05:57.240 and the Ontario government felt blindsided by this.
00:06:00.880 And I know that there was,
00:06:02.400 because MPPs have acknowledged as much,
00:06:04.600 a lot of dispute over this bill behind the scenes.
00:06:08.060 Doug Ford, however, said, the Premier of Ontario,
00:06:10.680 that you, quote, never said a word, unquote, to him
00:06:13.720 before voting against this bill.
00:06:15.400 Is that true?
00:06:16.500 So I tried on multiple occasions to reach out to him.
00:06:19.840 He was in Cambridge twice.
00:06:21.680 It's not two weeks ago.
00:06:23.040 And it was the Tuesday and the Friday.
00:06:25.560 So the Tuesday he was here at Eclipse Automation,
00:06:27.900 because they received some funding
00:06:29.700 through the Ontario Together grant.
00:06:32.300 And I said to him,
00:06:34.440 so understanding when he's on these tours,
00:06:37.900 it is, it's very fast moving.
00:06:39.840 So he's surrounded by staff.
00:06:41.440 And it's like, okay, get to the podium,
00:06:42.840 do the announcement, do the media, boom, boom, boom.
00:06:44.540 And so as we had left the building
00:06:46.820 and there was a few seconds,
00:06:49.300 I said, Premier, I need to speak to you.
00:06:51.280 It's quite urgent.
00:06:52.040 And he said, great, I'll call you tonight.
00:06:53.340 Not a problem.
00:06:54.580 Okay.
00:06:55.120 I waited.
00:06:56.000 The call did not come.
00:06:57.200 I spoke to two different individuals
00:06:59.180 at the Premier's office over the next couple of days.
00:07:01.920 And I made it clear that I was waiting for a call.
00:07:04.700 One of my staff members had communicated
00:07:08.200 to the Premier staff as well,
00:07:09.620 that MPP Karhalios is eagerly waiting her call.
00:07:13.320 And I actually said to one of the Premier's office staff members,
00:07:17.140 I said, okay, I'm waiting for the call,
00:07:18.880 but you know what?
00:07:19.500 I understand he's busy.
00:07:20.820 Here's what my issue is.
00:07:22.220 And I laid it out.
00:07:23.100 And I said, you know, Bill 195,
00:07:25.060 I'm very uncomfortable with it.
00:07:26.220 Here's why.
00:07:27.100 Here's how I think you can fix it.
00:07:28.820 And here's why, you know,
00:07:30.040 here's why I think it's going to be damaging
00:07:31.520 if we don't have some type of debate.
00:07:34.080 I said, even if,
00:07:35.860 even if you only have a debate in voting
00:07:38.120 at that select committee,
00:07:39.920 then at least there's some type of debate
00:07:42.280 and vote on this.
00:07:44.240 But on any stage of this,
00:07:46.360 now that the bill has passed
00:07:47.660 and it received royal assent,
00:07:49.540 there is no debate.
00:07:50.840 There is no voting on any aspect.
00:07:52.200 The Premier or his designate can make decisions
00:07:54.320 to extend emergency orders,
00:07:55.980 to amend them for whatever the reason may be.
00:08:00.320 And then it goes through this select committee
00:08:03.280 where they can ask questions and answers.
00:08:05.940 But at the end of the day,
00:08:06.560 the decision is made,
00:08:07.360 kind of like the bill, right?
00:08:08.400 You know, we're provided with this update,
00:08:11.340 this briefing,
00:08:12.420 and you can say what you like about it.
00:08:14.420 But at the end of the day,
00:08:15.140 the bill has been written
00:08:16.140 with the intention of it being tabled
00:08:18.340 and no one's feedback
00:08:20.860 is really going to be implemented into it.
00:08:24.140 So you had raised very specific
00:08:26.400 and concrete concerns
00:08:27.920 with the Premier's office, you say,
00:08:29.700 even proposed remedies.
00:08:31.740 Did you ever say
00:08:32.640 that you would not vote for the bill
00:08:34.540 or could not vote for the bill
00:08:35.800 in its unamended form?
00:08:37.860 I didn't.
00:08:38.640 I said I was very uncomfortable.
00:08:39.720 I never used the words
00:08:40.460 I will not vote for the bill.
00:08:42.520 But I did express my discomfort.
00:08:44.780 And I said, you know,
00:08:45.820 it's what we're doing isn't right.
00:08:47.240 We can't,
00:08:48.520 we are for less government as Conservatives,
00:08:50.780 not more government,
00:08:52.600 especially not unaccountable government.
00:08:56.800 So, you know,
00:08:57.740 it was something I struggled a lot with this
00:08:59.520 because it was a two-week period.
00:09:00.600 It was done quite quickly.
00:09:01.600 There was time allocation on the bill.
00:09:03.600 The bill didn't go to a committee
00:09:05.320 like bills usually do
00:09:06.780 after a second reading
00:09:08.540 for, again, more debate
00:09:10.360 and potential changes to be made.
00:09:12.700 So I struggled,
00:09:14.180 I struggled a lot with this
00:09:15.760 because I knew what the right thing was to do,
00:09:18.240 which is to vote no.
00:09:19.940 I knew that's what I was hearing
00:09:20.920 from my constituents.
00:09:21.880 I know that at the end of the day,
00:09:23.160 my job is to represent them.
00:09:25.480 But I was afraid
00:09:27.060 because I know from past experience
00:09:29.880 what happens, right?
00:09:31.260 So, for example,
00:09:32.440 when the marijuana legislation
00:09:33.660 was being pushed through
00:09:36.260 near the beginning of our mandates,
00:09:38.880 I was uncomfortable with that as well.
00:09:41.040 And I did speak to the premier
00:09:42.260 face-to-face about that.
00:09:43.360 It was after question period
00:09:44.300 and we spoke face-to-face.
00:09:46.740 And I said,
00:09:47.660 you know,
00:09:49.360 we don't have any control
00:09:50.440 over the legalization of the stuff, right?
00:09:51.840 We just created the framework around it.
00:09:54.020 And I was saying,
00:09:55.200 why not push the legal age to 25
00:09:57.260 when the brain has stopped developing?
00:09:58.500 Because I had spoken to some doctors
00:09:59.800 saying that if an individual
00:10:01.760 is more prone to depression
00:10:04.040 or bipolar disorder
00:10:05.240 or things like that,
00:10:06.500 exposing them to marijuana
00:10:08.120 at an earlier age
00:10:09.180 compounded the issue
00:10:10.840 or created additional issues.
00:10:12.700 And I was told,
00:10:14.220 well, no,
00:10:15.160 we can't do that.
00:10:16.460 It's just easier if it's 19.
00:10:18.660 And I'm saying,
00:10:19.040 what about 21?
00:10:20.000 Like, can we meet somewhere in the middle?
00:10:22.040 And so that day
00:10:24.100 after I spoke to him,
00:10:25.220 one of his staffers called me
00:10:27.120 and threatened me on my drive home.
00:10:28.540 If you ever want to be a minister,
00:10:30.340 you're going to vote the right way.
00:10:32.360 And it's just crazy
00:10:33.340 because, you know,
00:10:34.640 at the end of the day,
00:10:35.320 I'm not a,
00:10:35.800 excuse the term,
00:10:36.940 a bum to warm a seat, right?
00:10:38.700 I am supposed to be a voice
00:10:40.840 for the people
00:10:41.540 of the riding of Cambridge.
00:10:43.880 So I was a team player, Andrew,
00:10:45.480 and I voted in favor of the bill
00:10:47.520 even though I was extremely uncomfortable.
00:10:49.680 And then, you know,
00:10:50.480 during one of our campaign promises
00:10:52.100 was to get rid of Tarion.
00:10:54.300 Well, we didn't do that.
00:10:55.220 We made some changes,
00:10:55.940 but I was a team player
00:10:57.100 and I voted for that as well.
00:10:58.760 And it was this bill,
00:10:59.720 Bill 195,
00:11:00.800 where we were essentially,
00:11:02.080 you know,
00:11:02.460 pardon me,
00:11:03.680 ignoring democracy
00:11:04.480 and, you know,
00:11:06.880 saying we're going to give the premier
00:11:07.860 all these powers
00:11:08.540 where I said,
00:11:09.060 no, no more.
00:11:09.800 Like,
00:11:10.620 at what point
00:11:12.160 does people come before party?
00:11:15.200 And that was the breaking point for me.
00:11:17.820 This was not a confidence bill.
00:11:20.180 So if this bill had been defeated,
00:11:22.020 it wouldn't have triggered
00:11:23.200 the fall of government.
00:11:24.680 Why was it whipped then?
00:11:26.040 Why was a vote against it
00:11:27.860 something that justified
00:11:29.200 expulsion from caucus?
00:11:31.020 It doesn't make sense to me.
00:11:32.680 It really doesn't make sense to me
00:11:33.860 because, as you said,
00:11:35.020 it was not a confidence bill.
00:11:36.460 It wasn't even a campaign promise.
00:11:38.660 So I get that there are some things
00:11:40.180 that you probably shouldn't vote against.
00:11:42.140 And at the end of the day,
00:11:43.320 my vote made no difference
00:11:44.900 in the outcome.
00:11:46.020 All I did was, again,
00:11:47.840 represent the people of Cambridge.
00:11:49.480 And apparently,
00:11:52.100 I mean,
00:11:52.360 I understand I was
00:11:53.040 the parliamentary assistant
00:11:53.880 to the ministry
00:11:56.200 where this was coming out of.
00:11:57.560 But again,
00:11:57.920 I expressed my displeasure
00:11:59.020 with this bill.
00:11:59.940 I said very clearly,
00:12:00.800 we need to be having discussions
00:12:02.360 and votes about this.
00:12:03.260 We cannot be muzzling
00:12:04.140 our MPPs
00:12:05.360 from speaking out against things
00:12:06.800 because in speaking
00:12:08.020 with business owners
00:12:08.700 in my riding,
00:12:09.780 because I did do consultations
00:12:11.760 during our lockdown,
00:12:13.800 and a lot of them are saying,
00:12:15.800 you know,
00:12:16.360 first it was,
00:12:17.100 we're closed for 15 days
00:12:18.340 because, you know,
00:12:20.100 we need to flatten the curve.
00:12:21.300 And then that became
00:12:22.060 100 plus days.
00:12:25.260 And as much as,
00:12:26.400 you know,
00:12:26.500 now in Cambridge,
00:12:27.160 we're in stage three,
00:12:27.920 which is great.
00:12:28.960 But a lot of my
00:12:30.020 independent business owners
00:12:31.060 are saying,
00:12:31.640 we can't have another shutdown.
00:12:34.140 Like, we cannot.
00:12:35.680 And this is going to be
00:12:37.160 the make or break point
00:12:38.500 for a lot of small businesses.
00:12:40.040 And, I mean,
00:12:40.980 when it comes to a decision like that,
00:12:43.040 if we were to get a second wave
00:12:44.620 or whatever the case is
00:12:46.040 and the Premier decides
00:12:47.220 to shut down again,
00:12:48.940 I can't speak on behalf
00:12:50.480 of my constituents anymore
00:12:51.640 because he's making
00:12:52.460 that final decision.
00:12:53.380 There is no vote.
00:12:54.300 And I don't think people
00:12:55.020 are aware of that.
00:12:56.200 You know,
00:12:56.580 as much as, you know,
00:12:57.560 people don't like
00:12:58.380 certain aspects of the bill,
00:12:59.640 really it's that voting part
00:13:00.960 that is the most important
00:13:02.220 because there is no chance
00:13:04.160 for your MPP
00:13:05.700 to have any say
00:13:06.600 on anything moving forward
00:13:07.840 when it comes
00:13:08.320 to these emergency measures.
00:13:10.320 When I,
00:13:11.460 well,
00:13:11.640 when your husband Jim
00:13:12.640 was disqualified
00:13:13.560 from the conservative
00:13:14.800 leadership race,
00:13:15.780 I had you and he
00:13:17.200 on the show
00:13:17.700 to talk about it.
00:13:18.520 And at the time,
00:13:19.820 I was sensing from you
00:13:21.680 and you were very diplomatic
00:13:22.940 and gracious about it,
00:13:24.180 but I was sensing
00:13:25.220 there was this growing discord
00:13:26.960 between you
00:13:28.040 and the broader
00:13:29.340 conservative establishment,
00:13:30.640 which includes the party
00:13:32.080 in which you were an MPP
00:13:33.600 up until a couple of days ago.
00:13:35.700 And, you know,
00:13:36.640 clearly this came about
00:13:38.220 and I wasn't entirely shocked.
00:13:40.140 And from that story
00:13:40.900 you just told,
00:13:41.640 which I didn't know
00:13:42.480 about the marijuana bill,
00:13:43.740 it sounds like this
00:13:44.840 has not been a new
00:13:46.520 or a recent problem.
00:13:49.020 It's not.
00:13:50.380 And, you know,
00:13:51.660 I get that,
00:13:53.060 you know,
00:13:54.220 it's a super majority
00:13:55.200 that the Conservatives have.
00:13:56.320 There's 70 plus seats.
00:13:57.900 There's a lot of members.
00:13:59.440 So being able to,
00:14:01.340 or allowing some
00:14:02.480 of the elected representatives
00:14:03.980 to have that freedom
00:14:05.220 to vote as they will,
00:14:06.880 because not all writings
00:14:08.400 are the same.
00:14:09.120 Like we're not all Toronto.
00:14:10.780 Cambridge is kind of
00:14:12.000 a mix of rural and urban.
00:14:13.640 We've got people in the north.
00:14:15.020 Your constituents
00:14:15.600 are going to want
00:14:16.600 different things.
00:14:17.320 And at the end of the day,
00:14:18.240 I think you should be allowing
00:14:19.700 your MPPs to some degree
00:14:21.900 have some free votes
00:14:23.440 because the only free vote
00:14:24.520 I've had was the pit bull ban.
00:14:26.460 And what's unfair about that
00:14:28.180 is I can't always justify my vote
00:14:31.160 if I don't truly believe
00:14:32.200 in what I'm voting for.
00:14:33.280 And I think it's really important
00:14:34.200 that if you don't like
00:14:35.100 the way I voted on something,
00:14:36.120 at least if I believed in it,
00:14:38.020 I can justify that vote.
00:14:40.140 Do you think that your vote
00:14:41.780 against this particular bill
00:14:43.740 was actually something
00:14:45.260 that was egregious enough
00:14:46.640 to the party
00:14:47.640 and to the premier's office
00:14:48.600 to get rid of you?
00:14:49.400 Or do you think it was an excuse
00:14:50.720 that they could use
00:14:52.020 and that there was already,
00:14:53.500 the fix was in, as they say?
00:14:56.900 I'm not really sure
00:14:58.000 either way on that.
00:15:00.460 Because there's two ways
00:15:01.340 you can look at that.
00:15:02.100 Like I know my, again,
00:15:02.960 going back to my bill,
00:15:03.900 Bill 150,
00:15:04.420 they, there was a lot
00:15:06.680 of pushback on that bill.
00:15:08.640 You know, I heard people
00:15:09.940 saying that I was being
00:15:10.700 a troublemaker.
00:15:11.600 But at the end of the day,
00:15:12.980 asking for transparency
00:15:14.220 and accountability
00:15:14.880 in internal party elections
00:15:16.580 when these individuals
00:15:17.880 could eventually be elected
00:15:19.000 into a position of power,
00:15:20.540 to me, sounds pretty basic.
00:15:23.260 And shocking that there would
00:15:24.780 be any pushback from that.
00:15:26.620 And I'm not afraid
00:15:27.580 to speak my mind at all.
00:15:29.240 If I don't think
00:15:29.820 something makes sense,
00:15:30.880 I'm going to speak up.
00:15:31.860 And I've always done that.
00:15:33.220 And maybe this was
00:15:34.880 just an easy way,
00:15:35.800 an easy out for them
00:15:36.780 to get rid of me.
00:15:37.520 Maybe.
00:15:39.160 Pardon me.
00:15:39.720 Maybe there were
00:15:40.240 other things to this.
00:15:41.220 But, you know,
00:15:42.700 it's a question I guess
00:15:44.120 you'd have to ask
00:15:44.880 the powers that be.
00:15:47.000 And I certainly
00:15:47.760 will do that.
00:15:48.740 But where I'm,
00:15:50.060 I guess,
00:15:50.440 really unclear
00:15:51.400 on this
00:15:52.740 is that it must
00:15:53.720 really serve
00:15:54.900 as a warning shot
00:15:55.900 to anyone else
00:15:56.700 in caucus
00:15:57.200 that would dare
00:15:58.400 step out of line
00:15:59.380 that this is
00:15:59.940 what's going to happen.
00:16:00.780 I mean,
00:16:01.060 it's proven
00:16:01.500 there's sort of
00:16:02.080 a zero-tolerance
00:16:03.480 approach for
00:16:04.400 voting against
00:16:05.440 or for,
00:16:06.120 in many cases,
00:16:06.980 even disagreeing.
00:16:08.520 Now,
00:16:08.780 I know you had
00:16:09.440 a lot of relationships
00:16:10.400 with people
00:16:10.920 in the caucus.
00:16:12.100 Do you think
00:16:12.760 that you're alone
00:16:13.800 in this fight?
00:16:15.800 No,
00:16:16.240 I know that I'm not alone.
00:16:18.180 And of course,
00:16:19.200 I'm not going
00:16:19.620 to disclose names
00:16:20.460 because I still have
00:16:21.480 friends in that caucus,
00:16:23.060 truly.
00:16:23.500 I mean,
00:16:23.640 we worked together
00:16:24.140 so closely for two years
00:16:25.220 and there's some
00:16:26.440 good people there.
00:16:28.060 And there were many
00:16:29.520 that were very uncomfortable
00:16:30.440 but it was
00:16:31.120 that weird conversation
00:16:32.800 where,
00:16:33.320 you know,
00:16:34.100 you say,
00:16:34.540 hey,
00:16:34.620 I'm uncomfortable
00:16:35.020 and they agree
00:16:35.920 and then they kind of
00:16:36.660 look down and to the side
00:16:37.800 because they don't even
00:16:38.680 want to entertain
00:16:39.280 the conversation
00:16:40.000 for fear of dot,
00:16:41.660 dot,
00:16:41.880 dot,
00:16:42.180 right?
00:16:43.060 They're going to lose
00:16:43.900 something,
00:16:44.240 they're not going
00:16:44.600 to get something,
00:16:45.160 whatever the case is.
00:16:46.600 And it's really sad
00:16:48.160 because,
00:16:49.100 again,
00:16:49.400 we were elected
00:16:50.340 by people
00:16:51.620 in an election
00:16:52.880 to speak for them,
00:16:54.640 to be their voice.
00:16:55.720 People trust us.
00:16:57.020 People trust you
00:16:57.600 to make the right call
00:16:58.520 and to do the right thing.
00:17:00.460 And it's sad
00:17:01.220 because there is
00:17:02.600 a lot of fear
00:17:03.180 and I really hope
00:17:04.900 that,
00:17:05.360 you know,
00:17:05.700 when I,
00:17:06.100 two years ago
00:17:07.220 when I was campaigning,
00:17:08.660 I had so much hope,
00:17:09.520 Andrew,
00:17:10.140 so much hope
00:17:10.680 because the Patrick Brown
00:17:11.860 PC party
00:17:12.540 I thought was done,
00:17:14.200 all of that corruption
00:17:15.020 and everything
00:17:15.480 that came under his watch
00:17:17.660 and,
00:17:18.640 you know,
00:17:19.420 Doug Ford came in
00:17:20.460 and said,
00:17:21.020 free votes
00:17:21.560 and I'm only going
00:17:22.320 to whip the votes
00:17:22.840 if it's a budget vote
00:17:23.700 and I'm going to get rid
00:17:25.900 of the carbon tax
00:17:26.560 and there were so many things
00:17:27.380 he was saying
00:17:27.720 that I said,
00:17:28.140 yes,
00:17:28.840 yes,
00:17:29.300 I can get behind this man.
00:17:31.040 I can,
00:17:31.400 I can campaign
00:17:32.480 for the PC party.
00:17:34.880 You know,
00:17:34.980 my hope was restored
00:17:35.820 and it was,
00:17:38.460 it's been very disappointing.
00:17:40.300 It's been very disappointing
00:17:41.460 because aside
00:17:42.620 from the whipped votes,
00:17:44.000 aside from the fact
00:17:44.700 that,
00:17:45.080 yeah,
00:17:45.240 we got rid
00:17:47.060 of cap and trade
00:17:47.720 while we're still
00:17:48.320 making big polluters
00:17:49.480 pay,
00:17:50.820 which essentially
00:17:51.500 is going to come back
00:17:52.640 down to,
00:17:53.360 to the grassroots anyway,
00:17:54.860 it's just been
00:17:55.520 one disappointment
00:17:56.040 after the next
00:17:56.720 and like I said,
00:17:57.460 I have been a team player.
00:17:59.180 I've been a team player
00:18:00.200 and I've gone along
00:18:01.080 and I've,
00:18:01.640 you know,
00:18:02.160 pushed the message
00:18:02.780 and this was just,
00:18:04.160 this was just it.
00:18:05.060 You cannot tell me
00:18:06.180 that in any country
00:18:08.460 or province
00:18:09.080 or whatever the case is
00:18:10.060 that it is okay
00:18:10.860 for one person
00:18:11.660 to have all the control,
00:18:13.220 especially during a time
00:18:14.620 when we have this
00:18:15.460 COVID-19 pandemic
00:18:16.540 when people are already
00:18:17.920 feeling vulnerable
00:18:18.600 and fearful.
00:18:20.180 I've seen that you've had
00:18:21.640 a bit of praise
00:18:22.420 from the NDP
00:18:23.300 in Ontario.
00:18:24.360 The Toronto Star
00:18:25.100 had an editorial
00:18:25.880 supporting your decision.
00:18:27.620 This is not,
00:18:28.480 as we know,
00:18:29.440 something that
00:18:29.900 Conservatives are used to
00:18:31.060 and it probably
00:18:31.580 won't extend
00:18:32.220 to other things
00:18:33.360 you speak up on
00:18:34.300 in the future
00:18:34.760 because they won't agree
00:18:35.980 in that certain moment there.
00:18:38.220 Have you had much support
00:18:39.540 from Conservatives?
00:18:40.960 Any official Conservatives
00:18:43.000 for lack of a better term?
00:18:44.880 Yes.
00:18:45.320 So I'll just say first
00:18:46.780 that democracy
00:18:47.460 isn't a Conservative thing.
00:18:49.040 I've spoken to members
00:18:51.040 of the NDP
00:18:51.540 and the other
00:18:52.160 independent members.
00:18:53.240 We all agree on this.
00:18:54.320 Democracy is something
00:18:55.100 I think everybody
00:18:56.340 can agree on,
00:18:57.400 can agree on,
00:18:58.220 pardon me.
00:19:00.120 And I've had
00:19:01.720 a lot of support,
00:19:02.800 again,
00:19:03.280 from Conservatives.
00:19:04.580 I won't name names,
00:19:05.680 but I have had
00:19:06.440 Conservatives reach out
00:19:07.480 to me saying,
00:19:08.100 you did the right thing,
00:19:09.260 good for you,
00:19:10.180 hold your head up high,
00:19:11.900 you know,
00:19:12.220 I hope you can probably
00:19:13.080 sleep well at night,
00:19:13.940 that kind of things.
00:19:15.580 And I've had some
00:19:16.020 really great conversations
00:19:16.860 with some members
00:19:18.560 of the opposition
00:19:19.160 independent parties.
00:19:21.440 It's been amazing,
00:19:23.020 truly,
00:19:23.300 the amount of support
00:19:23.940 I've received.
00:19:24.900 It was a very,
00:19:26.340 very hard decision
00:19:27.500 to actually get up
00:19:29.600 and walk through
00:19:31.000 the no lobby.
00:19:32.100 It was extremely hard
00:19:33.000 because I could have
00:19:33.840 abstained,
00:19:34.880 but at the end of the day,
00:19:36.300 my constituents
00:19:37.140 didn't ask me
00:19:37.940 to not vote.
00:19:39.180 They asked me
00:19:39.660 to use my vote,
00:19:40.960 and I did.
00:19:42.920 So let's turn
00:19:44.400 from the past
00:19:45.220 and present
00:19:45.720 to the future here.
00:19:46.960 I know that some MPPs
00:19:48.460 have spoken up
00:19:49.200 about the process,
00:19:50.660 if you were to rejoin
00:19:51.700 the PC caucus,
00:19:52.740 caucus would have
00:19:53.440 to vote on it.
00:19:54.380 Is that something
00:19:55.200 you're even interested in?
00:19:56.460 And would there be
00:19:57.080 circumstances under which
00:19:58.240 you would entertain
00:19:59.040 going back into this
00:20:00.480 PC caucus
00:20:01.180 if you were welcome?
00:20:02.720 I think there's a few
00:20:03.760 changes that need to occur
00:20:05.280 before I would consider that.
00:20:07.440 One definitely would be
00:20:08.780 the freedom of expression
00:20:10.560 and the freedom
00:20:12.020 to vote
00:20:13.340 the way that my constituents
00:20:14.680 need and want me to vote.
00:20:16.680 There are other changes,
00:20:17.680 I won't get into
00:20:18.340 those details now,
00:20:19.840 but if I were to be
00:20:22.220 invited to join tomorrow
00:20:24.660 and none of those
00:20:25.980 changes have happened,
00:20:26.880 I don't think
00:20:27.920 I could go back.
00:20:29.140 But there are circumstances
00:20:30.540 under which it would
00:20:31.280 at least be a discussion.
00:20:33.560 Yeah, I mean,
00:20:34.020 I'm always open
00:20:34.500 to discussion.
00:20:35.920 I'm not so close-minded
00:20:37.060 that I would just say no.
00:20:38.040 I'd want to discuss
00:20:39.040 more about it.
00:20:40.460 It just,
00:20:40.960 like I said,
00:20:41.280 the whole thing
00:20:41.640 is extremely disappointing
00:20:42.560 because I really came
00:20:43.840 into this two years ago
00:20:44.840 with a lot of hope.
00:20:46.660 And maybe that's
00:20:47.860 me being naive,
00:20:49.580 but I'm a Christian
00:20:52.020 and I believe that
00:20:53.080 hope and faith
00:20:54.160 are two things
00:20:54.780 that really help people
00:20:56.340 get through their days.
00:20:57.900 And I still haven't lost hope.
00:21:00.640 I still think things
00:21:01.820 can get better
00:21:02.440 and they will get better,
00:21:03.600 but not without people trying
00:21:05.340 and people speaking up
00:21:06.340 and people fighting
00:21:06.900 for things that they believe in.
00:21:08.500 I know this wasn't,
00:21:09.800 obviously,
00:21:10.460 the politically sound decision
00:21:12.220 in many ways
00:21:12.960 because we know
00:21:13.480 that independent legislators
00:21:15.140 do not have
00:21:15.880 a tremendous amount of power,
00:21:17.300 although we do have
00:21:18.080 in the legislature now
00:21:19.100 a couple of you.
00:21:20.720 And looking forward,
00:21:22.060 I don't know
00:21:22.500 if you've made a decision
00:21:23.440 on this.
00:21:23.980 It's an uphill battle
00:21:24.840 if an independent
00:21:25.380 is to run for election
00:21:27.220 or even re-election.
00:21:28.820 Is that something
00:21:29.580 you're considering
00:21:30.320 at this point,
00:21:30.940 running as an independent?
00:21:33.160 We'll see.
00:21:34.040 I mean,
00:21:34.340 it's two years out
00:21:35.000 to the next election,
00:21:36.000 so that's still
00:21:36.700 quite a lot of time.
00:21:38.540 So, you know,
00:21:39.300 I'm going to take everything
00:21:40.040 day by day.
00:21:40.720 I have very much
00:21:42.460 enjoyed my time thus far
00:21:43.740 representing Cambridge.
00:21:45.880 It's a wonderful community
00:21:47.360 and, you know,
00:21:48.580 we have very specific
00:21:49.780 needs in this community
00:21:52.780 and things that we don't want
00:21:54.720 in this community.
00:21:55.760 I've been fighting
00:21:56.980 for a long time
00:21:57.860 to ensure that we get
00:21:58.740 more prevention
00:22:00.280 and treatment
00:22:00.880 for those suffering
00:22:02.000 from addiction.
00:22:02.820 You know,
00:22:03.020 the community in Cambridge
00:22:03.960 has spoken very loudly
00:22:04.860 about not wanting
00:22:05.620 an injection site.
00:22:06.800 I've been a very loud voice
00:22:08.020 at that table.
00:22:08.580 Things are not going
00:22:10.440 to change in the way
00:22:11.040 that I serve them.
00:22:11.740 I'll continue to advocate
00:22:12.700 for them
00:22:13.280 and continue to ensure
00:22:14.920 that, you know,
00:22:15.900 I am reaching out
00:22:16.700 to the appropriate ministries.
00:22:18.040 Like I said,
00:22:18.500 I've developed relationships
00:22:19.840 with those in the PC caucus
00:22:21.680 over the last two years
00:22:23.000 and I don't expect
00:22:25.000 things to change
00:22:26.080 in that regard.
00:22:27.680 I know another thing
00:22:28.620 that's come up
00:22:29.060 is Conscious Rights
00:22:29.680 for Physicians.
00:22:30.380 That was the campaign promise.
00:22:31.820 That's something
00:22:32.280 that's come up
00:22:32.760 quite a few times
00:22:33.420 in the constituency.
00:22:34.780 I'll continue to fight
00:22:35.940 for that as well.
00:22:36.880 So there's quite a few things
00:22:38.200 still that need to get done
00:22:39.640 that I'll continue
00:22:40.160 to fight for.
00:22:41.420 And, you know,
00:22:42.980 my door is always open
00:22:43.920 as I've always said
00:22:44.480 to my constituents
00:22:45.200 and nothing is going
00:22:47.120 to change for them.
00:22:48.800 Belinda Carajalios,
00:22:49.920 MPP for Cambridge
00:22:51.200 in Ontario.
00:22:51.920 Thank you very much
00:22:52.760 for coming on today.
00:22:53.840 Thank you so much
00:22:54.460 for having me, Andrew.
00:22:55.080 It's always a pleasure.
00:22:56.300 That was Ontario Member
00:22:57.960 of the Provincial Parliament
00:22:59.040 Belinda Carajalios
00:23:00.320 and she had mentioned
00:23:01.440 something in that
00:23:02.760 that I think was important.
00:23:04.020 That Doug Ford
00:23:04.600 had always been
00:23:05.220 very unequivocal
00:23:06.160 on free votes
00:23:07.800 for MPPs.
00:23:09.080 And there was actually
00:23:10.360 a quote that David Haynes,
00:23:12.620 who's a reporter
00:23:13.380 with Queen's Park Briefing,
00:23:15.320 had tweeted out
00:23:16.000 and I read that quote
00:23:16.980 and I'm like,
00:23:17.440 this looks really familiar.
00:23:18.860 And it was actually
00:23:19.620 a quote from a debate
00:23:21.120 that I hosted
00:23:21.860 on my former radio show,
00:23:23.980 a progressive conservative
00:23:25.360 Party of Ontario
00:23:26.340 leadership debate
00:23:27.280 in which Doug Ford
00:23:28.920 gave a very unequivocally
00:23:30.840 clear position
00:23:31.860 on free votes.
00:23:33.300 And I was able
00:23:34.000 to dig up the clip.
00:23:34.900 So here's that.
00:23:36.240 I want to give Doug
00:23:36.800 a chance to chime in
00:23:37.560 on this one.
00:23:39.080 Well, first of all,
00:23:40.060 I believe everyone
00:23:41.320 has the right to vote
00:23:42.120 the way they believe.
00:23:43.480 The only vote
00:23:44.300 I'm going to require
00:23:46.060 our team to vote on
00:23:47.640 is the budget
00:23:48.200 to make sure
00:23:49.420 that we vote together
00:23:50.380 on the budget.
00:23:51.780 So the fact that
00:23:52.940 Belinda Carajalios
00:23:54.460 was kicked out
00:23:56.240 for voting against
00:23:57.420 a bill that wasn't
00:23:58.580 a confidence bill,
00:23:59.520 she wasn't voting
00:24:00.300 to trigger the downfall
00:24:01.320 of government.
00:24:01.880 She was just saying,
00:24:02.460 listen, this is not
00:24:03.620 the way to do it,
00:24:04.660 suggests that there
00:24:06.160 was actually a desire
00:24:08.220 already, a concerted desire
00:24:09.940 to get her out of the caucus. 0.80
00:24:11.400 And she was not able
00:24:13.180 to say for or against
00:24:14.640 whether that happened,
00:24:15.540 but it just seemed like
00:24:16.600 she had that reputation 0.81
00:24:18.040 as being a troublemaker.
00:24:19.480 That was her admission
00:24:20.280 that people were calling her that,
00:24:21.780 not that she actually was that.
00:24:23.260 So it seems like people
00:24:24.740 just wanted to get her out.
00:24:26.040 And I think it's a profound loss.
00:24:27.700 I've known Belinda Carajalios
00:24:28.920 for years.
00:24:29.840 She's a passionate advocate.
00:24:31.560 She's not controversial.
00:24:32.960 She's not, even Jim has said,
00:24:34.760 I think when I spoke to them last,
00:24:36.280 like, you know,
00:24:36.560 he gets why everyone finds,
00:24:37.960 you know, him to be a troublemaker,
00:24:39.120 but she's not.
00:24:39.920 Everyone likes her.
00:24:40.920 And it's very upsetting
00:24:42.340 that, you know,
00:24:43.440 she now no longer
00:24:44.280 has a seat in the government
00:24:45.420 that I ran as a candidate for.
00:24:47.840 I supported her candidacy.
00:24:49.420 I was myself
00:24:50.120 potentially going to be
00:24:51.680 an MPP at this point
00:24:52.880 in that party
00:24:53.620 and in that government.
00:24:54.360 So it's very,
00:24:55.720 very unsettling
00:24:56.800 when principal decisions
00:24:58.600 get you thrown out to the curb.
00:25:00.280 We've got to take a break.
00:25:01.380 When we come back,
00:25:02.200 more of The Andrew Lawton Show
00:25:03.500 here on True North.
00:25:06.580 You're tuned in
00:25:07.760 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:25:10.300 Welcome back
00:25:11.160 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:25:12.440 Just a reminder
00:25:13.260 that coming up on Wednesday
00:25:15.240 is the Independent Press Gallery
00:25:17.340 Conservative Leadership Debate
00:25:19.340 hosted by my friend
00:25:20.560 and colleague Candace Malcolm
00:25:21.720 and moderated by yours truly.
00:25:24.500 We've got all four candidates
00:25:25.600 confirmed and we're going
00:25:26.460 to be broadcasting it live
00:25:28.240 at independentpressgallery.ca
00:25:30.300 and it'll also be on
00:25:32.120 True North as well.
00:25:33.400 So on Facebook or YouTube,
00:25:34.620 you should be able
00:25:35.320 to access it.
00:25:36.560 But certainly
00:25:37.220 independentpressgallery.ca
00:25:39.000 slash debate
00:25:40.020 is going to be
00:25:40.560 the main home for that.
00:25:41.880 And listen,
00:25:42.440 it's going to be
00:25:42.900 an absolutely fantastic night.
00:25:44.700 We hope you're all able
00:25:45.440 to tune in.
00:25:46.260 And if you can't catch it live,
00:25:47.520 we'll have the archive available
00:25:49.360 probably that night,
00:25:50.480 but certainly the day after.
00:25:51.640 So thanks very much
00:25:52.400 for all the words
00:25:53.500 of encouragement
00:25:54.160 I've received from you on that.
00:25:56.120 Let's go before I talk
00:25:58.180 to John Carpe
00:25:59.120 from the Justice Centre
00:26:00.160 for Constitutional Freedoms
00:26:01.560 to this story from CBC.
00:26:04.440 Effective immediately,
00:26:05.920 CBC's Mervyn Brass writes,
00:26:07.900 CBC Sports will stop
00:26:09.400 the use of Indigenous names
00:26:11.020 in reference to teams
00:26:12.660 and symbols.
00:26:13.960 This will be reflected
00:26:14.900 in all published work
00:26:16.700 across CBC Sports
00:26:17.960 and CBC Olympics platforms.
00:26:20.780 So this means that
00:26:23.300 if CBC Sports
00:26:24.260 is running a story
00:26:25.220 about the Cleveland Indians,
00:26:26.520 they'll have to call it
00:26:27.560 the Cleveland
00:26:28.420 or the Cleveland team
00:26:31.140 or if they're talking
00:26:32.220 about anyone else
00:26:33.900 that has a name
00:26:34.960 that they deem problematic,
00:26:36.020 they won't actually
00:26:36.880 do their job
00:26:37.820 and report it.
00:26:39.340 They will just ignore it,
00:26:41.460 find a way around it.
00:26:42.560 This is hugely problematic
00:26:44.120 to use the term
00:26:45.440 of the left
00:26:46.060 social justice warrior mob
00:26:47.640 because if the name
00:26:49.900 of a team is something
00:26:51.640 to decide that you are
00:26:53.580 going to unilaterally
00:26:54.520 not use that team name
00:26:56.100 in coverage
00:26:56.620 is actually to push
00:26:57.640 an agenda
00:26:58.260 over actually reporting
00:27:00.360 the news,
00:27:01.080 over covering the news,
00:27:02.180 over covering facts.
00:27:03.460 I'm all for people
00:27:04.520 that want to talk to teams
00:27:05.900 and say,
00:27:06.260 listen,
00:27:06.520 I think you need
00:27:06.960 to change the name.
00:27:08.180 I want people to be able
00:27:09.520 to in a free country
00:27:10.680 stand up and say,
00:27:11.700 we think the Redskins
00:27:12.560 should change,
00:27:13.220 the Eskimos,
00:27:14.060 the Indians,
00:27:15.160 the Atlanta Braves,
00:27:16.340 whatever the case may be.
00:27:17.640 Regardless of what
00:27:18.900 I think about those names,
00:27:20.360 people have the right
00:27:21.280 to take out their grievances
00:27:22.480 with the teams.
00:27:24.100 But for the media
00:27:25.180 to push an agenda
00:27:26.940 means they're not
00:27:28.760 actually reporting.
00:27:30.200 And we know
00:27:30.680 that media does this.
00:27:31.620 We know there's a media bias
00:27:32.800 from the mainstream,
00:27:33.680 certainly in CBC,
00:27:35.020 but there's something
00:27:35.760 particularly chilling here.
00:27:37.160 And even if you aren't
00:27:38.480 a fan of the indigenous
00:27:40.260 team names
00:27:41.040 or symbols
00:27:41.580 or mascots,
00:27:42.840 for a media outlet
00:27:43.940 to say,
00:27:44.520 we are not going to refer
00:27:45.640 to a team by its name,
00:27:46.900 what if they start to say,
00:27:48.220 ah, you know what,
00:27:48.640 we're not going to refer
00:27:49.280 to this building
00:27:49.880 by its name.
00:27:50.580 We're not going to refer
00:27:51.200 to this statue.
00:27:52.620 We're not going to refer
00:27:53.500 to this street by its name
00:27:54.760 because all of these
00:27:55.560 have a history
00:27:57.120 that we don't want to avoid.
00:27:58.580 Well, we'd say
00:27:59.100 that's ridiculous.
00:27:59.680 So why are we endorsing
00:28:01.460 something like that
00:28:02.800 happening
00:28:03.260 at the reporting level,
00:28:04.920 at the journalism outlet level
00:28:06.900 when it comes
00:28:07.860 to a team name?
00:28:08.900 So this is something,
00:28:10.340 again,
00:28:10.580 it's beyond the names themselves
00:28:12.180 and the symbology
00:28:13.080 and the terminology.
00:28:13.980 It is agenda pushing,
00:28:16.340 pure and simple
00:28:17.220 and it is done
00:28:19.120 so brazenly and proudly too,
00:28:20.980 which I think
00:28:21.460 is the most dangerous part
00:28:22.500 and CBC is getting
00:28:23.520 praise heaped on them
00:28:24.900 rather than criticism
00:28:25.840 from this.
00:28:26.480 So that was why
00:28:27.380 I tweeted out about it.
00:28:29.120 In any case,
00:28:30.020 we are going to talk
00:28:31.100 about the politics
00:28:32.180 of lockdown here.
00:28:33.800 When I was at
00:28:34.340 the Freedom Talk conference
00:28:35.500 in Calgary last weekend
00:28:36.840 or I guess it was
00:28:37.760 a week and a half ago now,
00:28:39.260 I sat down with
00:28:39.960 John Carpe,
00:28:40.780 who's the president
00:28:41.680 of the Justice Centre
00:28:42.720 for Constitutional Freedoms
00:28:44.120 and we spoke about
00:28:45.300 some of the legal challenges
00:28:46.580 that are going forward
00:28:47.740 against governments
00:28:49.220 that have put in
00:28:50.080 a great many emergency orders
00:28:52.480 and other things,
00:28:54.080 including mask mandates,
00:28:55.380 which originally
00:28:55.940 it was just Guelph
00:28:56.860 and then we started
00:28:57.480 to see other cities
00:28:58.280 follow suit.
00:28:59.380 The most notable of them
00:29:00.480 is Toronto,
00:29:01.340 my own city,
00:29:02.160 London, Ontario,
00:29:03.160 cities across the country
00:29:04.360 that now require you
00:29:05.800 to wear a mask.
00:29:06.980 Now, are these orders
00:29:08.360 constitutional?
00:29:09.880 Are they legal?
00:29:10.660 Well, I wanted to get
00:29:11.800 to the bottom of that
00:29:12.580 with Justice Centre
00:29:14.220 President John Carpe.
00:29:16.100 John, it's always good
00:29:16.980 to talk to you.
00:29:17.660 Good to be with you.
00:29:18.700 So we have had,
00:29:20.040 I mean, so many big cases
00:29:21.640 in the last few years,
00:29:22.740 but in the last few months
00:29:23.820 it seems like we've had
00:29:24.880 more with jurisdictions
00:29:26.280 that have put all
00:29:27.040 of these emergency orders,
00:29:28.240 that have shut down businesses,
00:29:29.500 that have threatened churches,
00:29:30.720 that have in even recent days
00:29:33.240 imposed mask orders
00:29:34.600 on populations.
00:29:35.580 Are any of these,
00:29:37.540 in your view,
00:29:38.820 going to stand up
00:29:41.160 if challenged
00:29:42.260 and when challenged?
00:29:43.080 I know you've pushed
00:29:43.780 for a lot of these things.
00:29:45.540 Well, it's all happened
00:29:46.100 so fast, right?
00:29:47.400 Because in March,
00:29:48.620 you know,
00:29:48.840 the scary numbers
00:29:49.780 were out there.
00:29:51.000 Neil Ferguson
00:29:51.640 of Imperial College
00:29:53.620 in London
00:29:54.020 was saying
00:29:54.540 as many as 510,000 people
00:29:57.780 in the United Kingdom
00:29:58.720 would die of COVID
00:30:00.000 and 2.2 million Americans
00:30:01.800 would die of COVID.
00:30:03.480 In Alberta,
00:30:04.420 Jason Kenney
00:30:05.140 and the chief medical officer
00:30:06.920 said as many as 32,000 people
00:30:09.680 would die of COVID.
00:30:10.860 So there was a lot of fear
00:30:11.880 and kind of one thing
00:30:14.980 led to another
00:30:15.600 and now here we are
00:30:16.940 four months later
00:30:17.700 and we still have
00:30:18.300 all these restrictions.
00:30:20.060 So the underlying principle
00:30:22.280 is that two things.
00:30:24.260 One, this is a violation
00:30:25.520 of our charter freedoms
00:30:26.700 to move, travel, assemble,
00:30:29.260 associate, worship.
00:30:31.020 Clearly, these are
00:30:31.740 charter violations.
00:30:32.920 Even putting on masks
00:30:33.900 is a violation
00:30:35.220 of our charter right
00:30:36.160 to life, liberty,
00:30:38.000 security of the person.
00:30:39.520 When the government
00:30:40.140 starts to dictate
00:30:40.980 intimate details
00:30:42.260 about what I'm required
00:30:43.940 to wear
00:30:44.520 or prohibited from wearing,
00:30:46.880 that's very much
00:30:47.960 liberty and trust.
00:30:51.200 Politicians can violate
00:30:52.500 our charter freedoms
00:30:53.460 provided that they
00:30:55.180 demonstrably justify
00:30:56.720 those violations
00:30:58.240 as necessary
00:30:59.460 and beneficial
00:31:00.260 and that's the bottom line.
00:31:02.840 So with that,
00:31:04.140 it sounds like
00:31:04.840 the emergency powers
00:31:06.360 and the emergency authority
00:31:07.620 that governments have used
00:31:08.780 to justify these
00:31:09.860 are fairly broad
00:31:11.340 and it sounds like
00:31:12.160 when you stack them up
00:31:13.060 against the charter,
00:31:14.180 the charter loses.
00:31:14.860 Well, see,
00:31:17.680 we haven't had a court action
00:31:18.920 and we may have
00:31:20.000 a court action
00:31:20.600 down the road.
00:31:22.000 If there was a court action
00:31:23.160 going and taking place
00:31:24.660 right now,
00:31:25.360 the government
00:31:26.140 would have to actually
00:31:27.360 fully explore
00:31:28.680 all of the harms
00:31:29.540 of the lockdown.
00:31:30.520 So everything from
00:31:31.500 increases in stress,
00:31:33.380 anxiety, depression,
00:31:34.440 suicides,
00:31:35.060 alcoholism,
00:31:35.840 spousal abuse,
00:31:36.580 child abuse,
00:31:37.180 family violence,
00:31:38.460 deaths from cancelled
00:31:39.220 surgery,
00:31:40.480 deaths and permanent
00:31:42.620 health damage
00:31:43.420 caused by people
00:31:44.660 not being able
00:31:45.620 to access medical care
00:31:47.540 because hospitals
00:31:48.360 were more or less closed,
00:31:50.160 so on and so forth.
00:31:51.220 They'd have to look
00:31:51.900 at all the harms
00:31:52.580 and they would have
00:31:53.740 to actually prove
00:31:54.820 that the lockdowns
00:31:56.340 have saved lives
00:31:57.140 and not just make
00:31:58.040 an assertion
00:31:58.780 and then they have
00:32:00.220 to weigh the two.
00:32:01.600 But because there's
00:32:02.380 no court action
00:32:03.100 on the go,
00:32:03.880 it's kind of sad.
00:32:05.220 Politicians seem
00:32:06.040 to be neither
00:32:07.380 putting forward evidence
00:32:08.920 to show that the lockdowns
00:32:10.320 have saved lives,
00:32:11.100 they're not putting forward
00:32:11.880 any evidence,
00:32:12.560 nor are they fully
00:32:14.060 exploring all the harms
00:32:15.340 that have been caused.
00:32:17.340 So they're failing
00:32:18.160 on both fronts.
00:32:19.680 Yeah, and flatten the curve
00:32:20.880 is not a legal argument
00:32:22.060 and stay home,
00:32:23.200 save lives
00:32:23.720 is not a legal argument.
00:32:24.860 So all of these things,
00:32:25.840 and by the way,
00:32:26.500 I would say that
00:32:26.960 public health officials
00:32:27.860 are not constitutional scholars
00:32:29.440 and they would admit to that,
00:32:31.000 but they're the ones
00:32:31.880 that it seems like
00:32:32.820 in many cases,
00:32:33.500 certainly at the federal level,
00:32:35.160 that have been given
00:32:35.840 carte blanche
00:32:36.740 to make these determinations.
00:32:38.880 And in a lot of ways,
00:32:40.180 it's very difficult
00:32:41.200 for anyone as a Canadian
00:32:42.700 to see how you have
00:32:43.920 any real transparency here
00:32:46.420 when Justin Trudeau,
00:32:47.400 who's elected,
00:32:48.060 is outsourcing his decision-making
00:32:50.080 to Dr. Theresa Tam,
00:32:51.460 who's unelected.
00:32:52.760 Well, some people have called it
00:32:54.400 a medical dictatorship,
00:32:55.680 and the premiers
00:32:58.140 are abdicating
00:32:59.300 their responsibility
00:33:00.140 to the opinions
00:33:01.500 of one medical doctor
00:33:02.800 in each province,
00:33:05.780 whose opinions, by the way,
00:33:07.560 are not always shared
00:33:08.280 by all doctors.
00:33:09.100 So even there,
00:33:09.760 there's debate,
00:33:10.700 you know,
00:33:11.060 are masks really helpful
00:33:13.300 or not necessary or not.
00:33:15.840 This is quite a problem
00:33:17.040 constitutionally
00:33:18.120 where you've got
00:33:19.620 this big transfer of power
00:33:21.040 to unaccountable,
00:33:22.420 unelected medical doctors.
00:33:25.300 And it's not,
00:33:26.940 I think it's more
00:33:27.580 the fault of the premiers
00:33:28.460 abdicating their responsibilities
00:33:30.140 to set overall public policy
00:33:33.380 rather than,
00:33:35.140 because if you put,
00:33:36.000 you know,
00:33:36.140 one doctor in charge,
00:33:37.840 I mean,
00:33:38.380 you know,
00:33:38.760 what if you put one engineer
00:33:40.420 in charge
00:33:41.080 or one teacher in charge?
00:33:42.580 I mean,
00:33:42.860 that's not how democracy works.
00:33:45.380 And I think when you say
00:33:46.140 that these haven't had
00:33:47.380 court hearings yet,
00:33:48.760 there's a positive in that,
00:33:50.080 because when there has been
00:33:51.000 some pushback,
00:33:52.220 it's been interesting to see
00:33:53.340 how in some cases
00:33:54.320 the state has backed off.
00:33:55.620 One notable example
00:33:56.460 was the Church of God
00:33:58.020 in Elmer, Ontario.
00:33:59.100 They were told,
00:34:00.240 threatened by police
00:34:01.040 for having drive-in services
00:34:02.740 at a time when we were being told,
00:34:04.320 don't go indoors.
00:34:04.960 So they said,
00:34:05.300 okay,
00:34:05.920 everyone stay in your cars.
00:34:07.020 The Justice Centre took on that case
00:34:08.720 and without having to go to court,
00:34:10.360 I think just the threat
00:34:11.100 of legal action
00:34:11.780 caused police to back off.
00:34:13.480 The province,
00:34:14.140 it sounded like,
00:34:14.840 called there to be
00:34:16.220 a backing off of that.
00:34:17.920 And same as a lot
00:34:19.020 of these tickets
00:34:19.680 that people have been given
00:34:20.640 for walking their dog,
00:34:21.860 for rollerblading,
00:34:22.680 for doing all of these things.
00:34:24.000 I think when there
00:34:24.860 has been pushback,
00:34:26.080 these things have not been
00:34:28.380 fought by the government.
00:34:29.980 And it's terrible
00:34:30.880 that they're kind of
00:34:32.160 just accepting
00:34:32.960 that most people
00:34:33.700 won't challenge it.
00:34:35.020 Well, it's sad.
00:34:36.020 I mean,
00:34:36.420 some of these people
00:34:37.240 with the $1,200 tickets
00:34:39.240 for, you know,
00:34:40.500 a teenager playing basketball
00:34:42.040 by himself.
00:34:43.040 I mean, outside.
00:34:45.200 You're not spreading COVID
00:34:46.700 to anybody.
00:34:48.180 And my understanding
00:34:49.920 is the transmission
00:34:51.120 in outdoors is next to me.
00:34:52.780 Well, and he was socially distanced
00:34:54.620 until the bylaw enforcement officers
00:34:56.560 walked onto the basketball court
00:34:58.180 to give him the ticket.
00:34:58.980 That's the great irony of it all.
00:35:00.820 Yeah, I wonder
00:35:01.360 if you could ward off
00:35:02.320 a ticket permanently
00:35:03.340 by saying,
00:35:03.900 oh, social distancing.
00:35:04.820 You can't receive the tickets.
00:35:05.940 You've got to stay
00:35:06.400 six feet away from me.
00:35:07.240 That might help.
00:35:08.120 So, you know,
00:35:08.820 one of these things,
00:35:09.580 and I said this early on
00:35:10.520 in the process,
00:35:11.220 that I would like there
00:35:12.240 to be a sense of community
00:35:13.580 where people just do
00:35:15.140 the right thing
00:35:15.740 because it's the moral right to do.
00:35:18.220 And people, you know,
00:35:19.340 stay clear
00:35:19.920 and respect other people's boundaries.
00:35:21.600 And the second that becomes
00:35:23.260 something that the state
00:35:24.340 has to mandate,
00:35:25.360 the discussion changes dramatically.
00:35:27.020 And I've been disappointed.
00:35:28.440 And I'm curious
00:35:29.280 for your perspective
00:35:30.120 on this, John,
00:35:31.160 at how Canadians 1.00
00:35:32.180 so willingly handed over
00:35:34.220 in a time of crisis, yes,
00:35:36.180 but also a time
00:35:36.900 when I think we need
00:35:37.540 to hold true
00:35:38.340 to our values
00:35:38.960 and our rights
00:35:39.480 so willingly handed them over.
00:35:41.780 Well, there's an interesting book,
00:35:43.160 1941,
00:35:43.900 Eric Frum,
00:35:44.780 called Escape from Freedom.
00:35:46.860 And he argues that there's
00:35:48.820 part of human nature
00:35:49.620 that actually hates freedom
00:35:50.780 and would rather be controlled
00:35:53.420 by some authority.
00:35:56.600 And so you have
00:35:57.000 an authoritarian personality
00:35:58.320 that actually likes
00:35:59.160 to get pushed around
00:36:00.280 and told what to do.
00:36:01.120 And it's very unhealthy.
00:36:02.820 So, you know,
00:36:03.460 these are big battles.
00:36:04.580 These are big cultural battles
00:36:05.780 because ultimately,
00:36:07.300 even though our Canadian Charter
00:36:09.740 of Rights and Freedoms
00:36:10.440 is very important,
00:36:11.300 and what's even more important
00:36:12.980 is what's in the hearts
00:36:14.600 and in the minds of people.
00:36:17.060 If people love freedom
00:36:18.860 and if they like to live
00:36:20.040 as responsible adults
00:36:21.800 that are not being managed
00:36:23.580 by a master government
00:36:25.640 like a bunch of cattle,
00:36:27.000 so if people actually
00:36:27.740 want to be free human beings
00:36:29.080 with dignity
00:36:29.700 who are adults
00:36:30.680 who make their own choices
00:36:32.240 about their own lives
00:36:33.660 and accept responsibility
00:36:34.580 for those choices,
00:36:36.200 that's really ultimately
00:36:37.620 where the free society
00:36:39.200 is going to rise or fall
00:36:41.120 sink or swim
00:36:43.620 based on Canadians
00:36:46.620 being willing to live
00:36:49.680 as adults
00:36:51.260 and be treated as adults
00:36:52.340 by their own government,
00:36:54.140 the Charter can play a role
00:36:55.640 in helping that,
00:36:58.100 but the biggest battle
00:36:59.040 is cultural
00:37:00.200 for the hearts and minds
00:37:01.540 of what's going on
00:37:02.900 with people on the inside.
00:37:05.320 Well, and I'm glad
00:37:05.820 that in that battle,
00:37:06.680 your side is certainly
00:37:07.680 not letting up.
00:37:08.500 John Carpe of the Justice Centre,
00:37:10.220 we thank you for all
00:37:10.940 that you do for freedoms
00:37:11.800 and certainly for all
00:37:12.860 that your group is doing
00:37:13.760 with True North as well
00:37:14.660 in our fight for freedom.
00:37:15.700 Always a pleasure.
00:37:16.660 Thank you.
00:37:17.400 And that was my interview
00:37:18.280 from a week and a half ago
00:37:19.580 with John Carpe,
00:37:20.500 and I'd hoped that
00:37:21.420 I would never get to use it,
00:37:22.600 that, you know,
00:37:23.040 we would all just wake up
00:37:24.100 in a free utopia,
00:37:25.820 libertarian society,
00:37:26.880 and we wouldn't need
00:37:27.580 to talk about legal challenges
00:37:29.200 against the government,
00:37:30.040 but alas,
00:37:30.940 things have only gotten worse
00:37:32.200 since then.
00:37:33.060 Take a look at Trinity Bellwoods Park
00:37:34.920 in Toronto, for example,
00:37:36.160 when people were initially
00:37:37.720 called Covidiots
00:37:38.900 for just having picnics
00:37:40.220 and hanging out
00:37:41.140 with their friends,
00:37:42.000 and now police are
00:37:43.520 busting people
00:37:44.460 for drinking in this park.
00:37:46.440 We're not talking about
00:37:47.640 mass riots or raves
00:37:49.320 or anything like that.
00:37:50.160 We're talking about people
00:37:50.780 that bring a bottle of wine
00:37:52.420 or a bottle of,
00:37:53.580 I don't know what kids
00:37:54.560 drink these days,
00:37:55.480 champagne, coolers,
00:37:56.680 Palm Bays,
00:37:57.160 I don't know,
00:37:57.660 bring in just a couple of drinks
00:37:59.000 and having a good old time
00:38:01.040 at the park on a weekend.
00:38:03.040 And yes,
00:38:03.720 I know that it's illegal.
00:38:05.320 My point here is that
00:38:06.840 no one is getting harmed,
00:38:08.740 and I'm a big believer
00:38:09.620 in the fact that stupid laws
00:38:11.140 are not things
00:38:12.680 that we should be celebrating
00:38:13.820 the enforcement of.
00:38:15.620 And look,
00:38:16.500 this is coming after
00:38:17.840 police decided that,
00:38:19.660 and politicians decided,
00:38:21.620 that mass protests
00:38:22.940 were completely fine,
00:38:24.160 but now they've got to
00:38:25.200 start cracking skulls
00:38:26.160 if people dare
00:38:26.820 to have a drink
00:38:27.600 in a park on a weekend
00:38:28.880 on an otherwise
00:38:30.220 sunny and beautiful day.
00:38:32.380 So thankfully,
00:38:33.200 there was a bit
00:38:33.860 of a resident patrol here.
00:38:35.340 Residents were on social media
00:38:36.620 warning people
00:38:37.560 that police were on the prowl.
00:38:39.280 It sounds like
00:38:39.860 from one tweet here,
00:38:40.740 a dozen officers
00:38:41.680 biking around
00:38:43.000 all the while
00:38:44.060 no one was even
00:38:44.920 like replenishing the soap
00:38:46.000 in the public washrooms
00:38:47.020 during the pandemic.
00:38:48.180 So talk about priorities
00:38:49.560 from the government.
00:38:50.620 They're going to get
00:38:51.100 their revenue,
00:38:52.080 but that's about all
00:38:53.020 they're going to focus on.
00:38:54.340 We have to wrap things up.
00:38:55.700 On Wednesday,
00:38:56.580 there's not going to be
00:38:57.160 an Andrew Lawton show
00:38:58.040 as usual
00:38:58.680 because we have,
00:38:59.560 as I mentioned earlier,
00:39:00.540 the conservative leadership debate,
00:39:02.360 and I do hope you tune into that,
00:39:04.100 and we will talk to you soon.
00:39:05.520 From me to you,
00:39:06.560 thank you,
00:39:07.040 God bless,
00:39:07.660 and good day, Canada.
00:39:09.020 Thanks for listening
00:39:09.740 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:39:11.260 Support the program
00:39:11.980 by donating to True North
00:39:13.220 at www.tnc.news.
00:39:16.380 www.tnc.web.com
00:39:24.120 2asa.com
00:39:32.040 1-2002.
00:39:32.260 We'll be right back.
00:39:32.860 ья