Juno News - Whipped Votes and Forced Lockdown (feat. Belinda Karahalios)

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.740 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.920 Coming up, Belinda Karajalios on her ejection from the PC caucus,

00:00:17.040 John Carpe on fighting for your civil liberties,

00:00:19.580 and CBC is pushing an agenda, but what else is new?

00:00:24.880 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.800 Hello everyone, welcome to another edition of the Andrew Lawton Show,

00:00:34.680 Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:38.220 We are going to get right into the thick of things in this particular show

00:00:42.460 because it has been a busy week and a busy few days for politics,

00:00:47.500 not just in Canada, but specifically in Ontario,

00:00:50.840 where a member of provincial parliament,

00:00:52.960 which if you're outside of Ontario is the Ontario equivalent of an MLA,

00:00:57.200 was booted from the Progressive Conservative Governments Caucus

00:01:01.420 after she voted against a measure that she says was a gross overreach

00:01:06.200 of the authority of the Premier's Office.

00:01:09.120 The bill in question was Bill 195,

00:01:12.080 a bill that would ultimately give the Premier's Office

00:01:14.800 the right to make some unilateral changes

00:01:17.000 with regard to Ontario's emergency declaration,

00:01:20.560 thus making it so that legislators,

00:01:23.240 the people elected to manage the day-to-day affairs of the province,

00:01:26.860 wouldn't have to or wouldn't even be able to.

00:01:29.880 Belinda Carajalios, who we've actually had on this show before,

00:01:33.440 she is an MPP for the Riding of Cambridge

00:01:36.000 and also, as the name would suggest,

00:01:38.160 the wife of Jim Carajalios,

00:01:40.240 the former leadership candidate for the Conservative Party of Canada.

00:01:44.940 Belinda Carajalios voted against this bill,

00:01:47.680 her own government's bill,

00:01:49.240 and moments later, it seemed,

00:01:51.220 was actually kicked out of the PC caucus.

00:01:54.400 And I want to talk about

00:01:55.880 not just the lead-up to her voting against this bill,

00:01:58.780 but also the ejection from caucus

00:02:00.720 and what it means for the state of the Conservatives in Ontario

00:02:04.360 and also what it means for the state of democracy

00:02:07.440 and the ability for representatives

00:02:09.640 to actually represent their constituents.

00:02:13.040 Joining me on the line now is Cambridge MPP,

00:02:15.700 now independent Cambridge MPP, Belinda Carajalios.

00:02:19.220 Belinda, good to talk to you again.

00:02:20.440 Thanks very much for coming on today.

00:02:22.580 Good morning, Andrew.

00:02:23.320 Good to see you again.

00:02:24.020 Thank you for having me.

00:02:25.460 So let's begin with the actual crux of this,

00:02:29.500 the decision that you made to vote against this bill.

00:02:33.100 You were talking about in a press release

00:02:35.420 that you sent out when you voted against this,

00:02:38.000 that there had been a lot of legal analysis,

00:02:40.260 a lot of criticism from lawyers,

00:02:42.140 civil liberties experts, even the Nurses Association,

00:02:45.900 that this would be a gross overreach.

00:02:48.300 Even so, your entire government or your former party

00:02:51.700 was going after this, supporting this.

00:02:53.860 Why was this for you the hill to die on?

00:02:56.560 So, you know, back in November of last year,

00:02:59.620 I tabled my first private members bill, Bill 150.

00:03:02.500 And that was in regards to transparency

00:03:05.140 and transparency and accountability

00:03:08.780 with internal party elections.

00:03:10.620 And, you know, democracy has always meant a great deal to me

00:03:13.400 and to many, many Ontarians and Canadians.

00:03:16.940 And, you know, when I got my briefing on the bill,

00:03:20.100 so I got it before caucus did because of my role

00:03:23.320 as a parliamentary assistant to the Solicitor General.

00:03:26.080 And I got the briefing.

00:03:28.080 And, you know, without actually seeing the actual hard copy of the bill,

00:03:32.040 let me make that clear.

00:03:32.820 And it sounds okay, right?

00:03:35.500 It sounds like, yeah, we need to have flexibility

00:03:37.100 with these emergency orders just in case.

00:03:40.140 Fine.

00:03:40.880 Then we got the following day a really short briefing at caucus.

00:03:44.680 It could have been later that day.

00:03:45.620 But anyways, it was either the day after or the same day.

00:03:49.500 And the bill was tabled, right?

00:03:51.380 So there was no real room to have any input on this.

00:03:54.560 So then I got a copy of the bill right here.

00:03:58.300 Got a copy of the bill.

00:03:59.440 And I decided to read through it on my own

00:04:01.840 and to cross-reference to the acts that are referenced in here.

00:04:06.460 So the Health Act and the Emergency Measures Protection Act,

00:04:08.900 the EMPCA, I believe is the red acronym.

00:04:13.500 And what really stood out for me was the fact that,

00:04:17.860 okay, we can have this flexibility.

00:04:20.680 And it had to be, you know, we can renew it every 30 days.

00:04:23.300 But there was no debate.

00:04:25.060 There was no vote.

00:04:26.040 There was no democratic process through the whole thing.

00:04:30.820 And that did not sit well with me.

00:04:33.600 Because, sorry, go ahead.

00:04:35.920 Well, I was just going to say that what's interesting there

00:04:38.200 is that when the pandemic was in its very early stages,

00:04:41.920 this seems very similar to what the federal government

00:04:45.280 under Justin Trudeau tried to do.

00:04:47.100 And everyone in Canada, especially on the right,

00:04:49.780 was finding that unconscionable and outrageous.

00:04:52.680 And here we are a few months later,

00:04:53.880 and it sounds like the exact same thing

00:04:55.720 was what was being put forward provincially

00:04:57.920 by many of the same people

00:04:59.180 who were criticizing the federal government.

00:05:01.480 Precisely.

00:05:02.080 And that was very glaring to me.

00:05:04.160 It was, you know, like you said, March.

00:05:06.180 In March of this year, Justin Trudeau tried to do this.

00:05:08.740 And everyone was up in arms.

00:05:09.960 And, oh my gosh, he doesn't care about democracy.

00:05:11.580 He wants a dictatorship.

00:05:12.520 And then, you know, the provincial conservatives

00:05:16.960 are doing it in Ontario, and no one says anything.

00:05:19.540 And people are saying, well, you've got to trust us.

00:05:21.140 We're going to do the right thing.

00:05:22.020 And I'm saying, no, you cannot trust any one government.

00:05:25.800 I don't care what political stripe you are.

00:05:28.620 And, you know, you Democrat, Liberal, Conservative,

00:05:31.340 you still need to have some type of discourse and debate.

00:05:34.320 That is what Canadians and Ontarians deserve.

00:05:37.300 And that's what we should be doing.

00:05:38.500 Pardon me, because at the end of the day,

00:05:40.300 as elected representatives, we are accountable.

00:05:42.520 And if I have one individual making decisions

00:05:46.460 for all of Cambridge without actually consulting with them,

00:05:49.400 I have a real problem with that.

00:05:52.120 A lot of the media coverage about this

00:05:54.800 has indicated that some of your colleagues in caucus

00:05:57.240 and the Ontario government felt blindsided by this.

00:06:00.880 And I know that there was,

00:06:02.400 because MPPs have acknowledged as much,

00:06:04.600 a lot of dispute over this bill behind the scenes.

00:06:08.060 Doug Ford, however, said, the Premier of Ontario,

00:06:10.680 that you, quote, never said a word, unquote, to him

00:06:13.720 before voting against this bill.

00:06:15.400 Is that true?

00:06:16.500 So I tried on multiple occasions to reach out to him.

00:06:19.840 He was in Cambridge twice.

00:06:21.680 It's not two weeks ago.

00:06:23.040 And it was the Tuesday and the Friday.

00:06:25.560 So the Tuesday he was here at Eclipse Automation,

00:06:27.900 because they received some funding

00:06:29.700 through the Ontario Together grant.

00:06:32.300 And I said to him,

00:06:34.440 so understanding when he's on these tours,

00:06:37.900 it is, it's very fast moving.

00:06:39.840 So he's surrounded by staff.

00:06:41.440 And it's like, okay, get to the podium,

00:06:42.840 do the announcement, do the media, boom, boom, boom.

00:06:44.540 And so as we had left the building

00:06:46.820 and there was a few seconds,

00:06:49.300 I said, Premier, I need to speak to you.

00:06:51.280 It's quite urgent.

00:06:52.040 And he said, great, I'll call you tonight.

00:06:53.340 Not a problem.

00:06:54.580 Okay.

00:06:55.120 I waited.

00:06:56.000 The call did not come.

00:06:57.200 I spoke to two different individuals

00:06:59.180 at the Premier's office over the next couple of days.

00:07:01.920 And I made it clear that I was waiting for a call.

00:07:04.700 One of my staff members had communicated

00:07:08.200 to the Premier staff as well,

00:07:09.620 that MPP Karhalios is eagerly waiting her call.

00:07:13.320 And I actually said to one of the Premier's office staff members,

00:07:17.140 I said, okay, I'm waiting for the call,

00:07:18.880 but you know what?

00:07:19.500 I understand he's busy.

00:07:20.820 Here's what my issue is.

00:07:22.220 And I laid it out.

00:07:23.100 And I said, you know, Bill 195,

00:07:25.060 I'm very uncomfortable with it.

00:07:26.220 Here's why.

00:07:27.100 Here's how I think you can fix it.

00:07:28.820 And here's why, you know,

00:07:30.040 here's why I think it's going to be damaging

00:07:31.520 if we don't have some type of debate.

00:07:34.080 I said, even if,

00:07:35.860 even if you only have a debate in voting

00:07:38.120 at that select committee,

00:07:39.920 then at least there's some type of debate

00:07:42.280 and vote on this.

00:07:44.240 But on any stage of this,

00:07:46.360 now that the bill has passed

00:07:47.660 and it received royal assent,

00:07:49.540 there is no debate.

00:07:50.840 There is no voting on any aspect.

00:07:52.200 The Premier or his designate can make decisions

00:07:54.320 to extend emergency orders,

00:07:55.980 to amend them for whatever the reason may be.

00:08:00.320 And then it goes through this select committee

00:08:03.280 where they can ask questions and answers.

00:08:05.940 But at the end of the day,

00:08:06.560 the decision is made,

00:08:07.360 kind of like the bill, right?

00:08:08.400 You know, we're provided with this update,

00:08:11.340 this briefing,

00:08:12.420 and you can say what you like about it.

00:08:14.420 But at the end of the day,

00:08:15.140 the bill has been written

00:08:16.140 with the intention of it being tabled

00:08:18.340 and no one's feedback

00:08:20.860 is really going to be implemented into it.

00:08:24.140 So you had raised very specific

00:08:26.400 and concrete concerns

00:08:27.920 with the Premier's office, you say,

00:08:29.700 even proposed remedies.

00:08:31.740 Did you ever say

00:08:32.640 that you would not vote for the bill

00:08:34.540 or could not vote for the bill

00:08:35.800 in its unamended form?

00:08:37.860 I didn't.

00:08:38.640 I said I was very uncomfortable.

00:08:39.720 I never used the words

00:08:40.460 I will not vote for the bill.

00:08:42.520 But I did express my discomfort.

00:08:44.780 And I said, you know,

00:08:45.820 it's what we're doing isn't right.

00:08:47.240 We can't,

00:08:48.520 we are for less government as Conservatives,

00:08:50.780 not more government,

00:08:52.600 especially not unaccountable government.

00:08:56.800 So, you know,

00:08:57.740 it was something I struggled a lot with this

00:08:59.520 because it was a two-week period.

00:09:00.600 It was done quite quickly.

00:09:01.600 There was time allocation on the bill.

00:09:03.600 The bill didn't go to a committee

00:09:05.320 like bills usually do

00:09:06.780 after a second reading

00:09:08.540 for, again, more debate

00:09:10.360 and potential changes to be made.

00:09:12.700 So I struggled,

00:09:14.180 I struggled a lot with this

00:09:15.760 because I knew what the right thing was to do,

00:09:18.240 which is to vote no.

00:09:19.940 I knew that's what I was hearing

00:09:20.920 from my constituents.

00:09:21.880 I know that at the end of the day,

00:09:23.160 my job is to represent them.

00:09:25.480 But I was afraid

00:09:27.060 because I know from past experience

00:09:29.880 what happens, right?

00:09:31.260 So, for example,

00:09:32.440 when the marijuana legislation

00:09:33.660 was being pushed through

00:09:36.260 near the beginning of our mandates,

00:09:38.880 I was uncomfortable with that as well.

00:09:41.040 And I did speak to the premier

00:09:42.260 face-to-face about that.

00:09:43.360 It was after question period

00:09:44.300 and we spoke face-to-face.

00:09:46.740 And I said,

00:09:47.660 you know,

00:09:49.360 we don't have any control

00:09:50.440 over the legalization of the stuff, right?

00:09:51.840 We just created the framework around it.

00:09:54.020 And I was saying,

00:09:55.200 why not push the legal age to 25

00:09:57.260 when the brain has stopped developing?

00:09:58.500 Because I had spoken to some doctors

00:09:59.800 saying that if an individual

00:10:01.760 is more prone to depression

00:10:04.040 or bipolar disorder

00:10:05.240 or things like that,

00:10:06.500 exposing them to marijuana

00:10:08.120 at an earlier age

00:10:09.180 compounded the issue

00:10:10.840 or created additional issues.

00:10:12.700 And I was told,

00:10:14.220 well, no,

00:10:15.160 we can't do that.

00:10:16.460 It's just easier if it's 19.

00:10:18.660 And I'm saying,

00:10:19.040 what about 21?

00:10:20.000 Like, can we meet somewhere in the middle?

00:10:22.040 And so that day

00:10:24.100 after I spoke to him,

00:10:25.220 one of his staffers called me

00:10:27.120 and threatened me on my drive home.

00:10:28.540 If you ever want to be a minister,

00:10:30.340 you're going to vote the right way.

00:10:32.360 And it's just crazy

00:10:33.340 because, you know,

00:10:34.640 at the end of the day,

00:10:35.320 I'm not a,

00:10:35.800 excuse the term,

00:10:36.940 a bum to warm a seat, right?

00:10:38.700 I am supposed to be a voice

00:10:40.840 for the people

00:10:41.540 of the riding of Cambridge.

00:10:43.880 So I was a team player, Andrew,

00:10:45.480 and I voted in favor of the bill

00:10:47.520 even though I was extremely uncomfortable.

00:10:49.680 And then, you know,

00:10:50.480 during one of our campaign promises

00:10:52.100 was to get rid of Tarion.

00:10:54.300 Well, we didn't do that.

00:10:55.220 We made some changes,

00:10:55.940 but I was a team player

00:10:57.100 and I voted for that as well.

00:10:58.760 And it was this bill,

00:10:59.720 Bill 195,

00:11:00.800 where we were essentially,

00:11:02.080 you know,

00:11:02.460 pardon me,

00:11:03.680 ignoring democracy

00:11:04.480 and, you know,

00:11:06.880 saying we're going to give the premier

00:11:07.860 all these powers

00:11:08.540 where I said,

00:11:09.060 no, no more.

00:11:09.800 Like,

00:11:10.620 at what point

00:11:12.160 does people come before party?

00:11:15.200 And that was the breaking point for me.

00:11:17.820 This was not a confidence bill.

00:11:20.180 So if this bill had been defeated,

00:11:22.020 it wouldn't have triggered

00:11:23.200 the fall of government.

00:11:24.680 Why was it whipped then?

00:11:26.040 Why was a vote against it

00:11:27.860 something that justified

00:11:29.200 expulsion from caucus?

00:11:31.020 It doesn't make sense to me.

00:11:32.680 It really doesn't make sense to me

00:11:33.860 because, as you said,

00:11:35.020 it was not a confidence bill.

00:11:36.460 It wasn't even a campaign promise.

00:11:38.660 So I get that there are some things

00:11:40.180 that you probably shouldn't vote against.

00:11:42.140 And at the end of the day,

00:11:43.320 my vote made no difference

00:11:44.900 in the outcome.

00:11:46.020 All I did was, again,

00:11:47.840 represent the people of Cambridge.

00:11:49.480 And apparently,

00:11:52.100 I mean,

00:11:52.360 I understand I was

00:11:53.040 the parliamentary assistant

00:11:53.880 to the ministry

00:11:56.200 where this was coming out of.

00:11:57.560 But again,

00:11:57.920 I expressed my displeasure

00:11:59.020 with this bill.

00:11:59.940 I said very clearly,

00:12:00.800 we need to be having discussions

00:12:02.360 and votes about this.

00:12:03.260 We cannot be muzzling

00:12:04.140 our MPPs

00:12:05.360 from speaking out against things

00:12:06.800 because in speaking

00:12:08.020 with business owners

00:12:08.700 in my riding,

00:12:09.780 because I did do consultations

00:12:11.760 during our lockdown,

00:12:13.800 and a lot of them are saying,

00:12:15.800 you know,

00:12:16.360 first it was,

00:12:17.100 we're closed for 15 days

00:12:18.340 because, you know,

00:12:20.100 we need to flatten the curve.

00:12:21.300 And then that became

00:12:22.060 100 plus days.

00:12:25.260 And as much as,

00:12:26.400 you know,

00:12:26.500 now in Cambridge,

00:12:27.160 we're in stage three,

00:12:27.920 which is great.

00:12:28.960 But a lot of my

00:12:30.020 independent business owners

00:12:31.060 are saying,

00:12:31.640 we can't have another shutdown.

00:12:34.140 Like, we cannot.

00:12:35.680 And this is going to be

00:12:37.160 the make or break point

00:12:38.500 for a lot of small businesses.

00:12:40.040 And, I mean,

00:12:40.980 when it comes to a decision like that,

00:12:43.040 if we were to get a second wave

00:12:44.620 or whatever the case is

00:12:46.040 and the Premier decides

00:12:47.220 to shut down again,

00:12:48.940 I can't speak on behalf

00:12:50.480 of my constituents anymore

00:12:51.640 because he's making

00:12:52.460 that final decision.

00:12:53.380 There is no vote.

00:12:54.300 And I don't think people

00:12:55.020 are aware of that.

00:12:56.200 You know,

00:12:56.580 as much as, you know,

00:12:57.560 people don't like

00:12:58.380 certain aspects of the bill,

00:12:59.640 really it's that voting part

00:13:00.960 that is the most important

00:13:02.220 because there is no chance

00:13:04.160 for your MPP

00:13:05.700 to have any say

00:13:06.600 on anything moving forward

00:13:07.840 when it comes

00:13:08.320 to these emergency measures.

00:13:10.320 When I,

00:13:11.460 well,

00:13:11.640 when your husband Jim

00:13:12.640 was disqualified

00:13:13.560 from the conservative

00:13:14.800 leadership race,

00:13:15.780 I had you and he

00:13:17.200 on the show

00:13:17.700 to talk about it.

00:13:18.520 And at the time,

00:13:19.820 I was sensing from you

00:13:21.680 and you were very diplomatic

00:13:22.940 and gracious about it,

00:13:24.180 but I was sensing

00:13:25.220 there was this growing discord

00:13:26.960 between you

00:13:28.040 and the broader

00:13:29.340 conservative establishment,

00:13:30.640 which includes the party

00:13:32.080 in which you were an MPP

00:13:33.600 up until a couple of days ago.

00:13:35.700 And, you know,

00:13:36.640 clearly this came about

00:13:38.220 and I wasn't entirely shocked.

00:13:40.140 And from that story

00:13:40.900 you just told,

00:13:41.640 which I didn't know

00:13:42.480 about the marijuana bill,

00:13:43.740 it sounds like this

00:13:44.840 has not been a new

00:13:46.520 or a recent problem.

00:13:49.020 It's not.

00:13:50.380 And, you know,

00:13:51.660 I get that,

00:13:53.060 you know,

00:13:54.220 it's a super majority

00:13:55.200 that the Conservatives have.

00:13:56.320 There's 70 plus seats.

00:13:57.900 There's a lot of members.

00:13:59.440 So being able to,

00:14:01.340 or allowing some

00:14:02.480 of the elected representatives

00:14:03.980 to have that freedom

00:14:05.220 to vote as they will,

00:14:06.880 because not all writings

00:14:08.400 are the same.

00:14:09.120 Like we're not all Toronto.

00:14:10.780 Cambridge is kind of

00:14:12.000 a mix of rural and urban.

00:14:13.640 We've got people in the north.

00:14:15.020 Your constituents

00:14:15.600 are going to want

00:14:16.600 different things.

00:14:17.320 And at the end of the day,

00:14:18.240 I think you should be allowing

00:14:19.700 your MPPs to some degree

00:14:21.900 have some free votes

00:14:23.440 because the only free vote

00:14:24.520 I've had was the pit bull ban.

00:14:26.460 And what's unfair about that

00:14:28.180 is I can't always justify my vote

00:14:31.160 if I don't truly believe

00:14:32.200 in what I'm voting for.

00:14:33.280 And I think it's really important

00:14:34.200 that if you don't like

00:14:35.100 the way I voted on something,

00:14:36.120 at least if I believed in it,

00:14:38.020 I can justify that vote.

00:14:40.140 Do you think that your vote

00:14:41.780 against this particular bill

00:14:43.740 was actually something

00:14:45.260 that was egregious enough

00:14:46.640 to the party

00:14:47.640 and to the premier's office

00:14:48.600 to get rid of you?

00:14:49.400 Or do you think it was an excuse

00:14:50.720 that they could use

00:14:52.020 and that there was already,

00:14:53.500 the fix was in, as they say?

00:14:56.900 I'm not really sure

00:14:58.000 either way on that.

00:15:00.460 Because there's two ways

00:15:01.340 you can look at that.

00:15:02.100 Like I know my, again,

00:15:02.960 going back to my bill,

00:15:03.900 Bill 150,

00:15:04.420 they, there was a lot

00:15:06.680 of pushback on that bill.

00:15:08.640 You know, I heard people

00:15:09.940 saying that I was being

00:15:10.700 a troublemaker.

00:15:11.600 But at the end of the day,

00:15:12.980 asking for transparency

00:15:14.220 and accountability

00:15:14.880 in internal party elections

00:15:16.580 when these individuals

00:15:17.880 could eventually be elected

00:15:19.000 into a position of power,

00:15:20.540 to me, sounds pretty basic.

00:15:23.260 And shocking that there would

00:15:24.780 be any pushback from that.

00:15:26.620 And I'm not afraid

00:15:27.580 to speak my mind at all.

00:15:29.240 If I don't think

00:15:29.820 something makes sense,

00:15:30.880 I'm going to speak up.

00:15:31.860 And I've always done that.

00:15:33.220 And maybe this was

00:15:34.880 just an easy way,

00:15:35.800 an easy out for them

00:15:36.780 to get rid of me.

00:15:37.520 Maybe.

00:15:39.160 Pardon me.

00:15:39.720 Maybe there were

00:15:40.240 other things to this.

00:15:41.220 But, you know,

00:15:42.700 it's a question I guess

00:15:44.120 you'd have to ask

00:15:44.880 the powers that be.

00:15:47.000 And I certainly

00:15:47.760 will do that.

00:15:48.740 But where I'm,

00:15:50.060 I guess,

00:15:50.440 really unclear

00:15:51.400 on this

00:15:52.740 is that it must

00:15:53.720 really serve

00:15:54.900 as a warning shot

00:15:55.900 to anyone else

00:15:56.700 in caucus

00:15:57.200 that would dare

00:15:58.400 step out of line

00:15:59.380 that this is

00:15:59.940 what's going to happen.

00:16:00.780 I mean,

00:16:01.060 it's proven

00:16:01.500 there's sort of

00:16:02.080 a zero-tolerance

00:16:03.480 approach for

00:16:04.400 voting against

00:16:05.440 or for,

00:16:06.120 in many cases,

00:16:06.980 even disagreeing.

00:16:08.520 Now,

00:16:08.780 I know you had

00:16:09.440 a lot of relationships

00:16:10.400 with people

00:16:10.920 in the caucus.

00:16:12.100 Do you think

00:16:12.760 that you're alone

00:16:13.800 in this fight?

00:16:15.800 No,

00:16:16.240 I know that I'm not alone.

00:16:18.180 And of course,

00:16:19.200 I'm not going

00:16:19.620 to disclose names

00:16:20.460 because I still have

00:16:21.480 friends in that caucus,

00:16:23.060 truly.

00:16:23.500 I mean,

00:16:23.640 we worked together

00:16:24.140 so closely for two years

00:16:25.220 and there's some

00:16:26.440 good people there.

00:16:28.060 And there were many

00:16:29.520 that were very uncomfortable

00:16:30.440 but it was

00:16:31.120 that weird conversation

00:16:32.800 where,

00:16:33.320 you know,

00:16:34.100 you say,

00:16:34.540 hey,

00:16:34.620 I'm uncomfortable

00:16:35.020 and they agree

00:16:35.920 and then they kind of

00:16:36.660 look down and to the side

00:16:37.800 because they don't even

00:16:38.680 want to entertain

00:16:39.280 the conversation

00:16:40.000 for fear of dot,

00:16:41.660 dot,

00:16:41.880 dot,

00:16:42.180 right?

00:16:43.060 They're going to lose

00:16:43.900 something,

00:16:44.240 they're not going

00:16:44.600 to get something,

00:16:45.160 whatever the case is.

00:16:46.600 And it's really sad

00:16:48.160 because,

00:16:49.100 again,

00:16:49.400 we were elected

00:16:50.340 by people

00:16:51.620 in an election

00:16:52.880 to speak for them,

00:16:54.640 to be their voice.

00:16:55.720 People trust us.

00:16:57.020 People trust you

00:16:57.600 to make the right call

00:16:58.520 and to do the right thing.

00:17:00.460 And it's sad

00:17:01.220 because there is

00:17:02.600 a lot of fear

00:17:03.180 and I really hope

00:17:04.900 that,

00:17:05.360 you know,

00:17:05.700 when I,

00:17:06.100 two years ago

00:17:07.220 when I was campaigning,

00:17:08.660 I had so much hope,

00:17:09.520 Andrew,

00:17:10.140 so much hope

00:17:10.680 because the Patrick Brown

00:17:11.860 PC party

00:17:12.540 I thought was done,

00:17:14.200 all of that corruption

00:17:15.020 and everything

00:17:15.480 that came under his watch

00:17:17.660 and,

00:17:18.640 you know,

00:17:19.420 Doug Ford came in

00:17:20.460 and said,

00:17:21.020 free votes

00:17:21.560 and I'm only going

00:17:22.320 to whip the votes

00:17:22.840 if it's a budget vote

00:17:23.700 and I'm going to get rid

00:17:25.900 of the carbon tax

00:17:26.560 and there were so many things

00:17:27.380 he was saying

00:17:27.720 that I said,

00:17:28.140 yes,

00:17:28.840 yes,

00:17:29.300 I can get behind this man.

00:17:31.040 I can,

00:17:31.400 I can campaign

00:17:32.480 for the PC party.

00:17:34.880 You know,

00:17:34.980 my hope was restored

00:17:35.820 and it was,

00:17:38.460 it's been very disappointing.

00:17:40.300 It's been very disappointing

00:17:41.460 because aside

00:17:42.620 from the whipped votes,

00:17:44.000 aside from the fact

00:17:44.700 that,

00:17:45.080 yeah,

00:17:45.240 we got rid

00:17:47.060 of cap and trade

00:17:47.720 while we're still

00:17:48.320 making big polluters

00:17:49.480 pay,

00:17:50.820 which essentially

00:17:51.500 is going to come back

00:17:52.640 down to,

00:17:53.360 to the grassroots anyway,

00:17:54.860 it's just been

00:17:55.520 one disappointment

00:17:56.040 after the next

00:17:56.720 and like I said,

00:17:57.460 I have been a team player.

00:17:59.180 I've been a team player

00:18:00.200 and I've gone along

00:18:01.080 and I've,

00:18:01.640 you know,

00:18:02.160 pushed the message

00:18:02.780 and this was just,

00:18:04.160 this was just it.

00:18:05.060 You cannot tell me

00:18:06.180 that in any country

00:18:08.460 or province

00:18:09.080 or whatever the case is

00:18:10.060 that it is okay

00:18:10.860 for one person

00:18:11.660 to have all the control,

00:18:13.220 especially during a time

00:18:14.620 when we have this

00:18:15.460 COVID-19 pandemic

00:18:16.540 when people are already

00:18:17.920 feeling vulnerable

00:18:18.600 and fearful.

00:18:20.180 I've seen that you've had

00:18:21.640 a bit of praise

00:18:22.420 from the NDP

00:18:23.300 in Ontario.

00:18:24.360 The Toronto Star

00:18:25.100 had an editorial

00:18:25.880 supporting your decision.

00:18:27.620 This is not,

00:18:28.480 as we know,

00:18:29.440 something that

00:18:29.900 Conservatives are used to

00:18:31.060 and it probably

00:18:31.580 won't extend

00:18:32.220 to other things

00:18:33.360 you speak up on

00:18:34.300 in the future

00:18:34.760 because they won't agree

00:18:35.980 in that certain moment there.

00:18:38.220 Have you had much support

00:18:39.540 from Conservatives?

00:18:40.960 Any official Conservatives

00:18:43.000 for lack of a better term?

00:18:44.880 Yes.

00:18:45.320 So I'll just say first

00:18:46.780 that democracy

00:18:47.460 isn't a Conservative thing.

00:18:49.040 I've spoken to members

00:18:51.040 of the NDP

00:18:51.540 and the other

00:18:52.160 independent members.

00:18:53.240 We all agree on this.

00:18:54.320 Democracy is something

00:18:55.100 I think everybody

00:18:56.340 can agree on,

00:18:57.400 can agree on,

00:18:58.220 pardon me.

00:19:00.120 And I've had

00:19:01.720 a lot of support,

00:19:02.800 again,

00:19:03.280 from Conservatives.

00:19:04.580 I won't name names,

00:19:05.680 but I have had

00:19:06.440 Conservatives reach out

00:19:07.480 to me saying,

00:19:08.100 you did the right thing,

00:19:09.260 good for you,

00:19:10.180 hold your head up high,

00:19:11.900 you know,

00:19:12.220 I hope you can probably

00:19:13.080 sleep well at night,

00:19:13.940 that kind of things.

00:19:15.580 And I've had some

00:19:16.020 really great conversations

00:19:16.860 with some members

00:19:18.560 of the opposition

00:19:19.160 independent parties.

00:19:21.440 It's been amazing,

00:19:23.020 truly,

00:19:23.300 the amount of support

00:19:23.940 I've received.

00:19:24.900 It was a very,

00:19:26.340 very hard decision

00:19:27.500 to actually get up

00:19:29.600 and walk through

00:19:31.000 the no lobby.

00:19:32.100 It was extremely hard

00:19:33.000 because I could have

00:19:33.840 abstained,

00:19:34.880 but at the end of the day,

00:19:36.300 my constituents

00:19:37.140 didn't ask me

00:19:37.940 to not vote.

00:19:39.180 They asked me

00:19:39.660 to use my vote,

00:19:40.960 and I did.

00:19:42.920 So let's turn

00:19:44.400 from the past

00:19:45.220 and present

00:19:45.720 to the future here.

00:19:46.960 I know that some MPPs

00:19:48.460 have spoken up

00:19:49.200 about the process,

00:19:50.660 if you were to rejoin

00:19:51.700 the PC caucus,

00:19:52.740 caucus would have

00:19:53.440 to vote on it.

00:19:54.380 Is that something

00:19:55.200 you're even interested in?

00:19:56.460 And would there be

00:19:57.080 circumstances under which

00:19:58.240 you would entertain

00:19:59.040 going back into this

00:20:00.480 PC caucus

00:20:01.180 if you were welcome?

00:20:02.720 I think there's a few

00:20:03.760 changes that need to occur

00:20:05.280 before I would consider that.

00:20:07.440 One definitely would be

00:20:08.780 the freedom of expression

00:20:10.560 and the freedom

00:20:12.020 to vote

00:20:13.340 the way that my constituents

00:20:14.680 need and want me to vote.

00:20:16.680 There are other changes,

00:20:17.680 I won't get into

00:20:18.340 those details now,

00:20:19.840 but if I were to be

00:20:22.220 invited to join tomorrow

00:20:24.660 and none of those

00:20:25.980 changes have happened,

00:20:26.880 I don't think

00:20:27.920 I could go back.

00:20:29.140 But there are circumstances

00:20:30.540 under which it would

00:20:31.280 at least be a discussion.

00:20:33.560 Yeah, I mean,

00:20:34.020 I'm always open

00:20:34.500 to discussion.

00:20:35.920 I'm not so close-minded

00:20:37.060 that I would just say no.

00:20:38.040 I'd want to discuss

00:20:39.040 more about it.

00:20:40.460 It just,

00:20:40.960 like I said,

00:20:41.280 the whole thing

00:20:41.640 is extremely disappointing

00:20:42.560 because I really came

00:20:43.840 into this two years ago

00:20:44.840 with a lot of hope.

00:20:46.660 And maybe that's

00:20:47.860 me being naive,

00:20:49.580 but I'm a Christian

00:20:52.020 and I believe that

00:20:53.080 hope and faith

00:20:54.160 are two things

00:20:54.780 that really help people

00:20:56.340 get through their days.

00:20:57.900 And I still haven't lost hope.

00:21:00.640 I still think things

00:21:01.820 can get better

00:21:02.440 and they will get better,

00:21:03.600 but not without people trying

00:21:05.340 and people speaking up

00:21:06.340 and people fighting

00:21:06.900 for things that they believe in.

00:21:08.500 I know this wasn't,

00:21:09.800 obviously,

00:21:10.460 the politically sound decision

00:21:12.220 in many ways

00:21:12.960 because we know

00:21:13.480 that independent legislators

00:21:15.140 do not have

00:21:15.880 a tremendous amount of power,

00:21:17.300 although we do have

00:21:18.080 in the legislature now

00:21:19.100 a couple of you.

00:21:20.720 And looking forward,

00:21:22.060 I don't know

00:21:22.500 if you've made a decision

00:21:23.440 on this.

00:21:23.980 It's an uphill battle

00:21:24.840 if an independent

00:21:25.380 is to run for election

00:21:27.220 or even re-election.

00:21:28.820 Is that something

00:21:29.580 you're considering

00:21:30.320 at this point,

00:21:30.940 running as an independent?

00:21:33.160 We'll see.

00:21:34.040 I mean,

00:21:34.340 it's two years out

00:21:35.000 to the next election,

00:21:36.000 so that's still

00:21:36.700 quite a lot of time.

00:21:38.540 So, you know,

00:21:39.300 I'm going to take everything

00:21:40.040 day by day.

00:21:40.720 I have very much

00:21:42.460 enjoyed my time thus far

00:21:43.740 representing Cambridge.

00:21:45.880 It's a wonderful community

00:21:47.360 and, you know,

00:21:48.580 we have very specific

00:21:49.780 needs in this community

00:21:52.780 and things that we don't want

00:21:54.720 in this community.

00:21:55.760 I've been fighting

00:21:56.980 for a long time

00:21:57.860 to ensure that we get

00:21:58.740 more prevention

00:22:00.280 and treatment

00:22:00.880 for those suffering

00:22:02.000 from addiction.

00:22:02.820 You know,

00:22:03.020 the community in Cambridge

00:22:03.960 has spoken very loudly

00:22:04.860 about not wanting

00:22:05.620 an injection site.

00:22:06.800 I've been a very loud voice

00:22:08.020 at that table.

00:22:08.580 Things are not going

00:22:10.440 to change in the way

00:22:11.040 that I serve them.

00:22:11.740 I'll continue to advocate

00:22:12.700 for them

00:22:13.280 and continue to ensure

00:22:14.920 that, you know,

00:22:15.900 I am reaching out

00:22:16.700 to the appropriate ministries.

00:22:18.040 Like I said,

00:22:18.500 I've developed relationships

00:22:19.840 with those in the PC caucus

00:22:21.680 over the last two years

00:22:23.000 and I don't expect

00:22:25.000 things to change

00:22:26.080 in that regard.

00:22:27.680 I know another thing

00:22:28.620 that's come up

00:22:29.060 is Conscious Rights

00:22:29.680 for Physicians.

00:22:30.380 That was the campaign promise.

00:22:31.820 That's something

00:22:32.280 that's come up

00:22:32.760 quite a few times

00:22:33.420 in the constituency.

00:22:34.780 I'll continue to fight

00:22:35.940 for that as well.

00:22:36.880 So there's quite a few things

00:22:38.200 still that need to get done

00:22:39.640 that I'll continue

00:22:40.160 to fight for.

00:22:41.420 And, you know,

00:22:42.980 my door is always open

00:22:43.920 as I've always said

00:22:44.480 to my constituents

00:22:45.200 and nothing is going

00:22:47.120 to change for them.

00:22:48.800 Belinda Carajalios,

00:22:49.920 MPP for Cambridge

00:22:51.200 in Ontario.

00:22:51.920 Thank you very much

00:22:52.760 for coming on today.

00:22:53.840 Thank you so much

00:22:54.460 for having me, Andrew.

00:22:55.080 It's always a pleasure.

00:22:56.300 That was Ontario Member

00:22:57.960 of the Provincial Parliament

00:22:59.040 Belinda Carajalios

00:23:00.320 and she had mentioned

00:23:01.440 something in that

00:23:02.760 that I think was important.

00:23:04.020 That Doug Ford

00:23:04.600 had always been

00:23:05.220 very unequivocal

00:23:06.160 on free votes

00:23:07.800 for MPPs.

00:23:09.080 And there was actually

00:23:10.360 a quote that David Haynes,

00:23:12.620 who's a reporter

00:23:13.380 with Queen's Park Briefing,

00:23:15.320 had tweeted out

00:23:16.000 and I read that quote

00:23:16.980 and I'm like,

00:23:17.440 this looks really familiar.

00:23:18.860 And it was actually

00:23:19.620 a quote from a debate

00:23:21.120 that I hosted

00:23:21.860 on my former radio show,

00:23:23.980 a progressive conservative

00:23:25.360 Party of Ontario

00:23:26.340 leadership debate

00:23:27.280 in which Doug Ford

00:23:28.920 gave a very unequivocally

00:23:30.840 clear position

00:23:31.860 on free votes.

00:23:33.300 And I was able

00:23:34.000 to dig up the clip.

00:23:34.900 So here's that.

00:23:36.240 I want to give Doug

00:23:36.800 a chance to chime in

00:23:37.560 on this one.

00:23:39.080 Well, first of all,

00:23:40.060 I believe everyone

00:23:41.320 has the right to vote

00:23:42.120 the way they believe.

00:23:43.480 The only vote

00:23:44.300 I'm going to require

00:23:46.060 our team to vote on

00:23:47.640 is the budget

00:23:48.200 to make sure

00:23:49.420 that we vote together

00:23:50.380 on the budget.

00:23:51.780 So the fact that

00:23:52.940 Belinda Carajalios

00:23:54.460 was kicked out

00:23:56.240 for voting against

00:23:57.420 a bill that wasn't

00:23:58.580 a confidence bill,

00:23:59.520 she wasn't voting

00:24:00.300 to trigger the downfall

00:24:01.320 of government.

00:24:01.880 She was just saying,

00:24:02.460 listen, this is not

00:24:03.620 the way to do it,

00:24:04.660 suggests that there

00:24:06.160 was actually a desire

00:24:08.220 already, a concerted desire

00:24:09.940 to get her out of the caucus. 0.80

00:24:11.400 And she was not able

00:24:13.180 to say for or against

00:24:14.640 whether that happened,

00:24:15.540 but it just seemed like

00:24:16.600 she had that reputation 0.81

00:24:18.040 as being a troublemaker.

00:24:19.480 That was her admission

00:24:20.280 that people were calling her that,

00:24:21.780 not that she actually was that.

00:24:23.260 So it seems like people

00:24:24.740 just wanted to get her out.

00:24:26.040 And I think it's a profound loss.

00:24:27.700 I've known Belinda Carajalios

00:24:28.920 for years.

00:24:29.840 She's a passionate advocate.

00:24:31.560 She's not controversial.

00:24:32.960 She's not, even Jim has said,

00:24:34.760 I think when I spoke to them last,

00:24:36.280 like, you know,

00:24:36.560 he gets why everyone finds,

00:24:37.960 you know, him to be a troublemaker,

00:24:39.120 but she's not.

00:24:39.920 Everyone likes her.

00:24:40.920 And it's very upsetting

00:24:42.340 that, you know,

00:24:43.440 she now no longer

00:24:44.280 has a seat in the government

00:24:45.420 that I ran as a candidate for.

00:24:47.840 I supported her candidacy.

00:24:49.420 I was myself

00:24:50.120 potentially going to be

00:24:51.680 an MPP at this point

00:24:52.880 in that party

00:24:53.620 and in that government.

00:24:54.360 So it's very,

00:24:55.720 very unsettling

00:24:56.800 when principal decisions

00:24:58.600 get you thrown out to the curb.

00:25:00.280 We've got to take a break.

00:25:01.380 When we come back,

00:25:02.200 more of The Andrew Lawton Show

00:25:03.500 here on True North.

00:25:06.580 You're tuned in

00:25:07.760 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:25:10.300 Welcome back

00:25:11.160 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:25:12.440 Just a reminder

00:25:13.260 that coming up on Wednesday

00:25:15.240 is the Independent Press Gallery

00:25:17.340 Conservative Leadership Debate

00:25:19.340 hosted by my friend

00:25:20.560 and colleague Candace Malcolm

00:25:21.720 and moderated by yours truly.

00:25:24.500 We've got all four candidates

00:25:25.600 confirmed and we're going

00:25:26.460 to be broadcasting it live

00:25:28.240 at independentpressgallery.ca

00:25:30.300 and it'll also be on

00:25:32.120 True North as well.

00:25:33.400 So on Facebook or YouTube,

00:25:34.620 you should be able

00:25:35.320 to access it.

00:25:36.560 But certainly

00:25:37.220 independentpressgallery.ca

00:25:39.000 slash debate

00:25:40.020 is going to be

00:25:40.560 the main home for that.

00:25:41.880 And listen,

00:25:42.440 it's going to be

00:25:42.900 an absolutely fantastic night.

00:25:44.700 We hope you're all able

00:25:45.440 to tune in.

00:25:46.260 And if you can't catch it live,

00:25:47.520 we'll have the archive available

00:25:49.360 probably that night,

00:25:50.480 but certainly the day after.

00:25:51.640 So thanks very much

00:25:52.400 for all the words

00:25:53.500 of encouragement

00:25:54.160 I've received from you on that.

00:25:56.120 Let's go before I talk

00:25:58.180 to John Carpe

00:25:59.120 from the Justice Centre

00:26:00.160 for Constitutional Freedoms

00:26:01.560 to this story from CBC.

00:26:04.440 Effective immediately,

00:26:05.920 CBC's Mervyn Brass writes,

00:26:07.900 CBC Sports will stop

00:26:09.400 the use of Indigenous names

00:26:11.020 in reference to teams

00:26:12.660 and symbols.

00:26:13.960 This will be reflected

00:26:14.900 in all published work

00:26:16.700 across CBC Sports

00:26:17.960 and CBC Olympics platforms.

00:26:20.780 So this means that

00:26:23.300 if CBC Sports

00:26:24.260 is running a story

00:26:25.220 about the Cleveland Indians,

00:26:26.520 they'll have to call it

00:26:27.560 the Cleveland

00:26:28.420 or the Cleveland team

00:26:31.140 or if they're talking

00:26:32.220 about anyone else

00:26:33.900 that has a name

00:26:34.960 that they deem problematic,

00:26:36.020 they won't actually

00:26:36.880 do their job

00:26:37.820 and report it.

00:26:39.340 They will just ignore it,

00:26:41.460 find a way around it.

00:26:42.560 This is hugely problematic

00:26:44.120 to use the term

00:26:45.440 of the left

00:26:46.060 social justice warrior mob

00:26:47.640 because if the name

00:26:49.900 of a team is something

00:26:51.640 to decide that you are

00:26:53.580 going to unilaterally

00:26:54.520 not use that team name

00:26:56.100 in coverage

00:26:56.620 is actually to push

00:26:57.640 an agenda

00:26:58.260 over actually reporting

00:27:00.360 the news,

00:27:01.080 over covering the news,

00:27:02.180 over covering facts.

00:27:03.460 I'm all for people

00:27:04.520 that want to talk to teams

00:27:05.900 and say,

00:27:06.260 listen,

00:27:06.520 I think you need

00:27:06.960 to change the name.

00:27:08.180 I want people to be able

00:27:09.520 to in a free country

00:27:10.680 stand up and say,

00:27:11.700 we think the Redskins

00:27:12.560 should change,

00:27:13.220 the Eskimos,

00:27:14.060 the Indians,

00:27:15.160 the Atlanta Braves,

00:27:16.340 whatever the case may be.

00:27:17.640 Regardless of what

00:27:18.900 I think about those names,

00:27:20.360 people have the right

00:27:21.280 to take out their grievances

00:27:22.480 with the teams.

00:27:24.100 But for the media

00:27:25.180 to push an agenda

00:27:26.940 means they're not

00:27:28.760 actually reporting.

00:27:30.200 And we know

00:27:30.680 that media does this.

00:27:31.620 We know there's a media bias

00:27:32.800 from the mainstream,

00:27:33.680 certainly in CBC,

00:27:35.020 but there's something

00:27:35.760 particularly chilling here.

00:27:37.160 And even if you aren't

00:27:38.480 a fan of the indigenous

00:27:40.260 team names

00:27:41.040 or symbols

00:27:41.580 or mascots,

00:27:42.840 for a media outlet

00:27:43.940 to say,

00:27:44.520 we are not going to refer

00:27:45.640 to a team by its name,

00:27:46.900 what if they start to say,

00:27:48.220 ah, you know what,

00:27:48.640 we're not going to refer

00:27:49.280 to this building

00:27:49.880 by its name.

00:27:50.580 We're not going to refer

00:27:51.200 to this statue.

00:27:52.620 We're not going to refer

00:27:53.500 to this street by its name

00:27:54.760 because all of these

00:27:55.560 have a history

00:27:57.120 that we don't want to avoid.

00:27:58.580 Well, we'd say

00:27:59.100 that's ridiculous.

00:27:59.680 So why are we endorsing

00:28:01.460 something like that

00:28:02.800 happening

00:28:03.260 at the reporting level,

00:28:04.920 at the journalism outlet level

00:28:06.900 when it comes

00:28:07.860 to a team name?

00:28:08.900 So this is something,

00:28:10.340 again,

00:28:10.580 it's beyond the names themselves

00:28:12.180 and the symbology

00:28:13.080 and the terminology.

00:28:13.980 It is agenda pushing,

00:28:16.340 pure and simple

00:28:17.220 and it is done

00:28:19.120 so brazenly and proudly too,

00:28:20.980 which I think

00:28:21.460 is the most dangerous part

00:28:22.500 and CBC is getting

00:28:23.520 praise heaped on them

00:28:24.900 rather than criticism

00:28:25.840 from this.

00:28:26.480 So that was why

00:28:27.380 I tweeted out about it.

00:28:29.120 In any case,

00:28:30.020 we are going to talk

00:28:31.100 about the politics

00:28:32.180 of lockdown here.

00:28:33.800 When I was at

00:28:34.340 the Freedom Talk conference

00:28:35.500 in Calgary last weekend

00:28:36.840 or I guess it was

00:28:37.760 a week and a half ago now,

00:28:39.260 I sat down with

00:28:39.960 John Carpe,

00:28:40.780 who's the president

00:28:41.680 of the Justice Centre

00:28:42.720 for Constitutional Freedoms

00:28:44.120 and we spoke about

00:28:45.300 some of the legal challenges

00:28:46.580 that are going forward

00:28:47.740 against governments

00:28:49.220 that have put in

00:28:50.080 a great many emergency orders

00:28:52.480 and other things,

00:28:54.080 including mask mandates,

00:28:55.380 which originally

00:28:55.940 it was just Guelph

00:28:56.860 and then we started

00:28:57.480 to see other cities

00:28:58.280 follow suit.

00:28:59.380 The most notable of them

00:29:00.480 is Toronto,

00:29:01.340 my own city,

00:29:02.160 London, Ontario,

00:29:03.160 cities across the country

00:29:04.360 that now require you

00:29:05.800 to wear a mask.

00:29:06.980 Now, are these orders

00:29:08.360 constitutional?

00:29:09.880 Are they legal?

00:29:10.660 Well, I wanted to get

00:29:11.800 to the bottom of that

00:29:12.580 with Justice Centre

00:29:14.220 President John Carpe.

00:29:16.100 John, it's always good

00:29:16.980 to talk to you.

00:29:17.660 Good to be with you.

00:29:18.700 So we have had,

00:29:20.040 I mean, so many big cases

00:29:21.640 in the last few years,

00:29:22.740 but in the last few months

00:29:23.820 it seems like we've had

00:29:24.880 more with jurisdictions

00:29:26.280 that have put all

00:29:27.040 of these emergency orders,

00:29:28.240 that have shut down businesses,

00:29:29.500 that have threatened churches,

00:29:30.720 that have in even recent days

00:29:33.240 imposed mask orders

00:29:34.600 on populations.

00:29:35.580 Are any of these,

00:29:37.540 in your view,

00:29:38.820 going to stand up

00:29:41.160 if challenged

00:29:42.260 and when challenged?

00:29:43.080 I know you've pushed

00:29:43.780 for a lot of these things.

00:29:45.540 Well, it's all happened

00:29:46.100 so fast, right?

00:29:47.400 Because in March,

00:29:48.620 you know,

00:29:48.840 the scary numbers

00:29:49.780 were out there.

00:29:51.000 Neil Ferguson

00:29:51.640 of Imperial College

00:29:53.620 in London

00:29:54.020 was saying

00:29:54.540 as many as 510,000 people

00:29:57.780 in the United Kingdom

00:29:58.720 would die of COVID

00:30:00.000 and 2.2 million Americans

00:30:01.800 would die of COVID.

00:30:03.480 In Alberta,

00:30:04.420 Jason Kenney

00:30:05.140 and the chief medical officer

00:30:06.920 said as many as 32,000 people

00:30:09.680 would die of COVID.

00:30:10.860 So there was a lot of fear

00:30:11.880 and kind of one thing

00:30:14.980 led to another

00:30:15.600 and now here we are

00:30:16.940 four months later

00:30:17.700 and we still have

00:30:18.300 all these restrictions.

00:30:20.060 So the underlying principle

00:30:22.280 is that two things.

00:30:24.260 One, this is a violation

00:30:25.520 of our charter freedoms

00:30:26.700 to move, travel, assemble,

00:30:29.260 associate, worship.

00:30:31.020 Clearly, these are

00:30:31.740 charter violations.

00:30:32.920 Even putting on masks

00:30:33.900 is a violation

00:30:35.220 of our charter right

00:30:36.160 to life, liberty,

00:30:38.000 security of the person.

00:30:39.520 When the government

00:30:40.140 starts to dictate

00:30:40.980 intimate details

00:30:42.260 about what I'm required

00:30:43.940 to wear

00:30:44.520 or prohibited from wearing,

00:30:46.880 that's very much

00:30:47.960 liberty and trust.

00:30:51.200 Politicians can violate

00:30:52.500 our charter freedoms

00:30:53.460 provided that they

00:30:55.180 demonstrably justify

00:30:56.720 those violations

00:30:58.240 as necessary

00:30:59.460 and beneficial

00:31:00.260 and that's the bottom line.

00:31:02.840 So with that,

00:31:04.140 it sounds like

00:31:04.840 the emergency powers

00:31:06.360 and the emergency authority

00:31:07.620 that governments have used

00:31:08.780 to justify these

00:31:09.860 are fairly broad

00:31:11.340 and it sounds like

00:31:12.160 when you stack them up

00:31:13.060 against the charter,

00:31:14.180 the charter loses.

00:31:14.860 Well, see,

00:31:17.680 we haven't had a court action

00:31:18.920 and we may have

00:31:20.000 a court action

00:31:20.600 down the road.

00:31:22.000 If there was a court action

00:31:23.160 going and taking place

00:31:24.660 right now,

00:31:25.360 the government

00:31:26.140 would have to actually

00:31:27.360 fully explore

00:31:28.680 all of the harms

00:31:29.540 of the lockdown.

00:31:30.520 So everything from

00:31:31.500 increases in stress,

00:31:33.380 anxiety, depression,

00:31:34.440 suicides,

00:31:35.060 alcoholism,

00:31:35.840 spousal abuse,

00:31:36.580 child abuse,

00:31:37.180 family violence,

00:31:38.460 deaths from cancelled

00:31:39.220 surgery,

00:31:40.480 deaths and permanent

00:31:42.620 health damage

00:31:43.420 caused by people

00:31:44.660 not being able

00:31:45.620 to access medical care

00:31:47.540 because hospitals

00:31:48.360 were more or less closed,

00:31:50.160 so on and so forth.

00:31:51.220 They'd have to look

00:31:51.900 at all the harms

00:31:52.580 and they would have

00:31:53.740 to actually prove

00:31:54.820 that the lockdowns

00:31:56.340 have saved lives

00:31:57.140 and not just make

00:31:58.040 an assertion

00:31:58.780 and then they have

00:32:00.220 to weigh the two.

00:32:01.600 But because there's

00:32:02.380 no court action

00:32:03.100 on the go,

00:32:03.880 it's kind of sad.

00:32:05.220 Politicians seem

00:32:06.040 to be neither

00:32:07.380 putting forward evidence

00:32:08.920 to show that the lockdowns

00:32:10.320 have saved lives,

00:32:11.100 they're not putting forward

00:32:11.880 any evidence,

00:32:12.560 nor are they fully

00:32:14.060 exploring all the harms

00:32:15.340 that have been caused.

00:32:17.340 So they're failing

00:32:18.160 on both fronts.

00:32:19.680 Yeah, and flatten the curve

00:32:20.880 is not a legal argument

00:32:22.060 and stay home,

00:32:23.200 save lives

00:32:23.720 is not a legal argument.

00:32:24.860 So all of these things,

00:32:25.840 and by the way,

00:32:26.500 I would say that

00:32:26.960 public health officials

00:32:27.860 are not constitutional scholars

00:32:29.440 and they would admit to that,

00:32:31.000 but they're the ones

00:32:31.880 that it seems like

00:32:32.820 in many cases,

00:32:33.500 certainly at the federal level,

00:32:35.160 that have been given

00:32:35.840 carte blanche

00:32:36.740 to make these determinations.

00:32:38.880 And in a lot of ways,

00:32:40.180 it's very difficult

00:32:41.200 for anyone as a Canadian

00:32:42.700 to see how you have

00:32:43.920 any real transparency here

00:32:46.420 when Justin Trudeau,

00:32:47.400 who's elected,

00:32:48.060 is outsourcing his decision-making

00:32:50.080 to Dr. Theresa Tam,

00:32:51.460 who's unelected.

00:32:52.760 Well, some people have called it

00:32:54.400 a medical dictatorship,

00:32:55.680 and the premiers

00:32:58.140 are abdicating

00:32:59.300 their responsibility

00:33:00.140 to the opinions

00:33:01.500 of one medical doctor

00:33:02.800 in each province,

00:33:05.780 whose opinions, by the way,

00:33:07.560 are not always shared

00:33:08.280 by all doctors.

00:33:09.100 So even there,

00:33:09.760 there's debate,

00:33:10.700 you know,

00:33:11.060 are masks really helpful

00:33:13.300 or not necessary or not.

00:33:15.840 This is quite a problem

00:33:17.040 constitutionally

00:33:18.120 where you've got

00:33:19.620 this big transfer of power

00:33:21.040 to unaccountable,

00:33:22.420 unelected medical doctors.

00:33:25.300 And it's not,

00:33:26.940 I think it's more

00:33:27.580 the fault of the premiers

00:33:28.460 abdicating their responsibilities

00:33:30.140 to set overall public policy

00:33:33.380 rather than,

00:33:35.140 because if you put,

00:33:36.000 you know,

00:33:36.140 one doctor in charge,

00:33:37.840 I mean,

00:33:38.380 you know,

00:33:38.760 what if you put one engineer

00:33:40.420 in charge

00:33:41.080 or one teacher in charge?

00:33:42.580 I mean,

00:33:42.860 that's not how democracy works.

00:33:45.380 And I think when you say

00:33:46.140 that these haven't had

00:33:47.380 court hearings yet,

00:33:48.760 there's a positive in that,

00:33:50.080 because when there has been

00:33:51.000 some pushback,

00:33:52.220 it's been interesting to see

00:33:53.340 how in some cases

00:33:54.320 the state has backed off.

00:33:55.620 One notable example

00:33:56.460 was the Church of God

00:33:58.020 in Elmer, Ontario.

00:33:59.100 They were told,

00:34:00.240 threatened by police

00:34:01.040 for having drive-in services

00:34:02.740 at a time when we were being told,

00:34:04.320 don't go indoors.

00:34:04.960 So they said,

00:34:05.300 okay,

00:34:05.920 everyone stay in your cars.

00:34:07.020 The Justice Centre took on that case

00:34:08.720 and without having to go to court,

00:34:10.360 I think just the threat

00:34:11.100 of legal action

00:34:11.780 caused police to back off.

00:34:13.480 The province,

00:34:14.140 it sounded like,

00:34:14.840 called there to be

00:34:16.220 a backing off of that.

00:34:17.920 And same as a lot

00:34:19.020 of these tickets

00:34:19.680 that people have been given

00:34:20.640 for walking their dog,

00:34:21.860 for rollerblading,

00:34:22.680 for doing all of these things.

00:34:24.000 I think when there

00:34:24.860 has been pushback,

00:34:26.080 these things have not been

00:34:28.380 fought by the government.

00:34:29.980 And it's terrible

00:34:30.880 that they're kind of

00:34:32.160 just accepting

00:34:32.960 that most people

00:34:33.700 won't challenge it.

00:34:35.020 Well, it's sad.

00:34:36.020 I mean,

00:34:36.420 some of these people

00:34:37.240 with the $1,200 tickets

00:34:39.240 for, you know,

00:34:40.500 a teenager playing basketball

00:34:42.040 by himself.

00:34:43.040 I mean, outside.

00:34:45.200 You're not spreading COVID

00:34:46.700 to anybody.

00:34:48.180 And my understanding

00:34:49.920 is the transmission

00:34:51.120 in outdoors is next to me.

00:34:52.780 Well, and he was socially distanced

00:34:54.620 until the bylaw enforcement officers

00:34:56.560 walked onto the basketball court

00:34:58.180 to give him the ticket.

00:34:58.980 That's the great irony of it all.

00:35:00.820 Yeah, I wonder

00:35:01.360 if you could ward off

00:35:02.320 a ticket permanently

00:35:03.340 by saying,

00:35:03.900 oh, social distancing.

00:35:04.820 You can't receive the tickets.

00:35:05.940 You've got to stay

00:35:06.400 six feet away from me.

00:35:07.240 That might help.

00:35:08.120 So, you know,

00:35:08.820 one of these things,

00:35:09.580 and I said this early on

00:35:10.520 in the process,

00:35:11.220 that I would like there

00:35:12.240 to be a sense of community

00:35:13.580 where people just do

00:35:15.140 the right thing

00:35:15.740 because it's the moral right to do.

00:35:18.220 And people, you know,

00:35:19.340 stay clear

00:35:19.920 and respect other people's boundaries.

00:35:21.600 And the second that becomes

00:35:23.260 something that the state

00:35:24.340 has to mandate,

00:35:25.360 the discussion changes dramatically.

00:35:27.020 And I've been disappointed.

00:35:28.440 And I'm curious

00:35:29.280 for your perspective

00:35:30.120 on this, John,

00:35:31.160 at how Canadians 1.00

00:35:32.180 so willingly handed over

00:35:34.220 in a time of crisis, yes,

00:35:36.180 but also a time

00:35:36.900 when I think we need

00:35:37.540 to hold true

00:35:38.340 to our values

00:35:38.960 and our rights

00:35:39.480 so willingly handed them over.

00:35:41.780 Well, there's an interesting book,

00:35:43.160 1941,

00:35:43.900 Eric Frum,

00:35:44.780 called Escape from Freedom.

00:35:46.860 And he argues that there's

00:35:48.820 part of human nature

00:35:49.620 that actually hates freedom

00:35:50.780 and would rather be controlled

00:35:53.420 by some authority.

00:35:56.600 And so you have

00:35:57.000 an authoritarian personality

00:35:58.320 that actually likes

00:35:59.160 to get pushed around

00:36:00.280 and told what to do.

00:36:01.120 And it's very unhealthy.

00:36:02.820 So, you know,

00:36:03.460 these are big battles.

00:36:04.580 These are big cultural battles

00:36:05.780 because ultimately,

00:36:07.300 even though our Canadian Charter

00:36:09.740 of Rights and Freedoms

00:36:10.440 is very important,

00:36:11.300 and what's even more important

00:36:12.980 is what's in the hearts

00:36:14.600 and in the minds of people.

00:36:17.060 If people love freedom

00:36:18.860 and if they like to live

00:36:20.040 as responsible adults

00:36:21.800 that are not being managed

00:36:23.580 by a master government

00:36:25.640 like a bunch of cattle,

00:36:27.000 so if people actually

00:36:27.740 want to be free human beings

00:36:29.080 with dignity

00:36:29.700 who are adults

00:36:30.680 who make their own choices

00:36:32.240 about their own lives

00:36:33.660 and accept responsibility

00:36:34.580 for those choices,

00:36:36.200 that's really ultimately

00:36:37.620 where the free society

00:36:39.200 is going to rise or fall

00:36:41.120 sink or swim

00:36:43.620 based on Canadians

00:36:46.620 being willing to live

00:36:49.680 as adults

00:36:51.260 and be treated as adults

00:36:52.340 by their own government,

00:36:54.140 the Charter can play a role

00:36:55.640 in helping that,

00:36:58.100 but the biggest battle

00:36:59.040 is cultural

00:37:00.200 for the hearts and minds

00:37:01.540 of what's going on

00:37:02.900 with people on the inside.

00:37:05.320 Well, and I'm glad

00:37:05.820 that in that battle,

00:37:06.680 your side is certainly

00:37:07.680 not letting up.

00:37:08.500 John Carpe of the Justice Centre,

00:37:10.220 we thank you for all

00:37:10.940 that you do for freedoms

00:37:11.800 and certainly for all

00:37:12.860 that your group is doing

00:37:13.760 with True North as well

00:37:14.660 in our fight for freedom.

00:37:15.700 Always a pleasure.

00:37:16.660 Thank you.

00:37:17.400 And that was my interview

00:37:18.280 from a week and a half ago

00:37:19.580 with John Carpe,

00:37:20.500 and I'd hoped that

00:37:21.420 I would never get to use it,

00:37:22.600 that, you know,

00:37:23.040 we would all just wake up

00:37:24.100 in a free utopia,

00:37:25.820 libertarian society,

00:37:26.880 and we wouldn't need

00:37:27.580 to talk about legal challenges

00:37:29.200 against the government,

00:37:30.040 but alas,

00:37:30.940 things have only gotten worse

00:37:32.200 since then.

00:37:33.060 Take a look at Trinity Bellwoods Park

00:37:34.920 in Toronto, for example,

00:37:36.160 when people were initially

00:37:37.720 called Covidiots

00:37:38.900 for just having picnics

00:37:40.220 and hanging out

00:37:41.140 with their friends,

00:37:42.000 and now police are

00:37:43.520 busting people

00:37:44.460 for drinking in this park.

00:37:46.440 We're not talking about

00:37:47.640 mass riots or raves

00:37:49.320 or anything like that.

00:37:50.160 We're talking about people

00:37:50.780 that bring a bottle of wine

00:37:52.420 or a bottle of,

00:37:53.580 I don't know what kids

00:37:54.560 drink these days,

00:37:55.480 champagne, coolers,

00:37:56.680 Palm Bays,

00:37:57.160 I don't know,

00:37:57.660 bring in just a couple of drinks

00:37:59.000 and having a good old time

00:38:01.040 at the park on a weekend.

00:38:03.040 And yes,

00:38:03.720 I know that it's illegal.

00:38:05.320 My point here is that

00:38:06.840 no one is getting harmed,

00:38:08.740 and I'm a big believer

00:38:09.620 in the fact that stupid laws

00:38:11.140 are not things

00:38:12.680 that we should be celebrating

00:38:13.820 the enforcement of.

00:38:15.620 And look,

00:38:16.500 this is coming after

00:38:17.840 police decided that,

00:38:19.660 and politicians decided,

00:38:21.620 that mass protests

00:38:22.940 were completely fine,

00:38:24.160 but now they've got to

00:38:25.200 start cracking skulls

00:38:26.160 if people dare

00:38:26.820 to have a drink

00:38:27.600 in a park on a weekend

00:38:28.880 on an otherwise

00:38:30.220 sunny and beautiful day.

00:38:32.380 So thankfully,

00:38:33.200 there was a bit

00:38:33.860 of a resident patrol here.

00:38:35.340 Residents were on social media

00:38:36.620 warning people

00:38:37.560 that police were on the prowl.

00:38:39.280 It sounds like

00:38:39.860 from one tweet here,

00:38:40.740 a dozen officers

00:38:41.680 biking around

00:38:43.000 all the while

00:38:44.060 no one was even

00:38:44.920 like replenishing the soap

00:38:46.000 in the public washrooms

00:38:47.020 during the pandemic.

00:38:48.180 So talk about priorities

00:38:49.560 from the government.

00:38:50.620 They're going to get

00:38:51.100 their revenue,

00:38:52.080 but that's about all

00:38:53.020 they're going to focus on.

00:38:54.340 We have to wrap things up.

00:38:55.700 On Wednesday,

00:38:56.580 there's not going to be

00:38:57.160 an Andrew Lawton show

00:38:58.040 as usual

00:38:58.680 because we have,

00:38:59.560 as I mentioned earlier,

00:39:00.540 the conservative leadership debate,

00:39:02.360 and I do hope you tune into that,

00:39:04.100 and we will talk to you soon.

00:39:05.520 From me to you,

00:39:06.560 thank you,

00:39:07.040 God bless,

00:39:07.660 and good day, Canada.

00:39:09.020 Thanks for listening

00:39:09.740 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:39:11.260 Support the program

00:39:11.980 by donating to True North

00:39:13.220 at www.tnc.news.

00:39:16.380 www.tnc.web.com

00:39:24.120 2asa.com

00:39:32.040 1-2002.

00:39:32.260 We'll be right back.

00:39:32.860 ья

Juno News - July 27, 2020

Whipped Votes and Forced Lockdown (feat. Belinda Karahalios)

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript