Juno News - Why environmentalists are wrong about coal

00:00:00.000 sitting down with mike young here now before we get going i want to talk about the name of

00:00:15.440 your company because you shared something rather amusing that ties into our audience here at true

00:00:20.240 north i think sure so we are a canadian company that is australian owned and we were looking for

00:00:26.080 a new name for the company that reflected both and so we came up with north back and so that's a

00:00:31.280 combination of the true north strong and free and the australian outback and that is literally where

00:00:35.920 the name comes from and our logo is the maple leaf and it sits above the commonwealth star of australia

00:00:42.640 okay and that's the one that's what you have on your lapel okay the coal pin yes that's right well

00:00:47.920 you brought up the coal pin let's talk about that because that's so often treated as i think a dirty

00:00:52.720 word by by a lot of people that are in this space on the political side of things but where is your

00:00:58.640 perspective on the industry it's a great question so i i i want to change the name of metallurgical

00:01:05.120 coal to steel carbon because 75 percent of the world steel is made using metallurgical coal or

00:01:11.840 steel carbon and a lot of people don't know that and they don't understand that there's quite a

00:01:15.920 difference in terms of of use value and use and emissions between thermal coal and metallurgical coal

00:01:21.920 so our company is a metallurgical coal project we have a project in crow's nest pass of southern

00:01:26.800 alberta and we're looking to develop that project to to really feel the need fill the need coming up

00:01:32.720 so steel production is going up and it's going to continue to go up it's one of the four pillars of

00:01:37.440 modern civilization western civilization eastern civilization if you build something with concrete

00:01:43.440 you're building with steel steel is fundamental to our lifestyle oftentimes i mean we we've heard in

00:01:50.400 canada for the last few months very aggressively the need to build housing we have a high density

00:01:56.000 housing all of these construction projects that governments and you know all political parties are

00:02:00.400 promising that are all requiring steel so that doesn't happen without coal you're saying that's

00:02:05.600 correct so as i say most of the world steel is made using coal um people talk about green steel it

00:02:11.920 it will certainly happen but it will not be a fundamental shift in the way steel is made

00:02:17.360 the companies are the countries that make the steel worldwide are are dominated by asia and they

00:02:22.400 have blast furnaces look those those countries are definitely looking to reduce emissions and that

00:02:28.480 would be through carbon capture and other uses of the co2 that's released when you make steel with

00:02:34.720 but that's not going to slow down and as you say we're continuing to build houses they have basements

00:02:41.360 the basements are made out of concrete and concrete is always reinforced with steel so why is that part

00:02:48.160 of the story never told because i mean similar when we're talking about energy sources oftentimes we're

00:02:53.920 being told we need to rely on these mythical alternatives that don't really exist yet and in

00:02:57.680 this particular case you're talking about something where there really isn't even a proposed alternative

00:03:02.000 to it well that's correct um some steel is made using electric arc furnaces and that's that's about 30 percent

00:03:08.400 uh but that that the feed for that is scrap steel and recycled steel i mean that's one of the good

00:03:14.160 things about steel it's recyclable but that's not sustainable if you're growing something recycling

00:03:18.880 can't inherently do it so we do need to mine iron ore we do need to mine metallurgical coal to make

00:03:24.160 the steel going forward and most people as with a lot of metals people really don't know where they come

00:03:30.720 from and that's to me that's a failure of the school system you know nobody takes geology right nobody

00:03:36.480 understands where the metals come from a lot of people think they come from factories powered by

00:03:41.840 unicorns i don't i don't know but you know they what what i do know is they don't know and part of

00:03:46.720 what i want to do is educate people on on how steel is made and the role of steel carbon in that process

00:03:52.560 and what's the breakdown for canada of where the the metallurgical coal supply that we need is coming

00:03:57.440 from so most of the metallurgical coal in canada comes from the west uh predominantly out of the elk valley

00:04:04.320 in bc uh the crow's nest pass was once a powerhouse of coal mining both thermal and metallurgical so

00:04:11.680 it was uh discovered when they drove the railway through um so that allowed you know coal played an

00:04:18.560 important role in maintaining canada's sovereignty because a lot of people don't know that one of the

00:04:22.880 reasons the railway was built was to maintain the sovereignty of the 49th parallel i mean coal is

00:04:28.160 you know the history of canada's is is linked with coal and we have coal mining uh down east as

00:04:33.760 well in nova scotia and that's mainly thermal um but uh world's most of the world's metallurgical

00:04:40.400 coal is from australia so they're a big part of the market but uh canada has a lot of it and we have

00:04:45.520 a uh an opportunity and an obligation to make sure that the world is getting metallurgical coal from what

00:04:51.440 is basically the world's best mining jurisdiction you know we have the best environmental laws there's

00:04:56.480 labor laws so if you're going to get if you're going to get your coal from somewhere canada is the best

00:05:01.440 place what is the i mean what are the barriers you're facing then is is it on permits for the

00:05:07.520 mining itself is it on export what are the barriers you're seeing in the industry and or just in your

00:05:12.080 company um well in the industry uh as you say coal has a bad history uh a lot of people you know you

00:05:18.800 look at selenium and in the elk valley for example and those are those are real issues but those are

00:05:23.040 legacy issues from the way that we used to do things one of the things that people don't see is just how

00:05:28.960 modern modern day mining is of all metals not just coal but copper and all the metals that we call

00:05:34.080 the critical minerals modern day mining is nothing like people imagine you know it's highly technical

00:05:40.880 um there is a lot of what we call you know robotics uh and there's a look people think we're not

00:05:48.000 environmentalists one thing about being a geologist is i get to go into the environment and i spend a lot

00:05:53.040 of time in the bush and we care for the environment we we seem not to um people seem not to think that

00:06:00.000 well i think you know a lot more about the environment than so many of the people trying

00:06:02.960 to vilify your industry well that's true actually that's a fair point um but we can we can sustain we

00:06:08.960 can sustainably mine and protect the environment at the same time i mean you know we make we make no

00:06:15.600 make no mistake when you when you do a mine you alter the environment but what you do afterwards

00:06:21.440 if you do that in consultation with not only the first nations and the rights holders but the people

00:06:26.320 of that area when you when you go you walk away from that project if you work with them to actually

00:06:33.520 close that project in a way that the land is still usable in whatever manner that may be

00:06:39.680 then that's a win for everybody so when we talk about the just transition oftentimes this is viewed

00:06:45.280 in the context of oil and gas but it does apply to mining as well in a very real way

00:06:51.280 so what's your concern looking at the messaging you've seen from the government on this federally

00:06:58.000 so what a lot of people don't realize is that when you move to renewables renewables inherently by

00:07:03.520 the laws of physics have lower energy density that means that you need more metal to produce the same

00:07:09.600 kilowatt of power as you would with say a base load like coal gas uh hydro or nuclear so yes we move

00:07:17.680 towards cleaner power sources uh but there's a cost to that the cost is you need more metal

00:07:22.400 and you need all the metals and of course steel is is the foundation it's the workhorse

00:07:27.520 of the just transition you're not moving towards new power lines transmission lines um solar panels

00:07:34.640 windmills i mean a windmill the foundation of a windmill is just full of reinforced steel and then

00:07:40.880 we're back to coal which is we're back to steel carbon yeah steel carbon yes we'll go for the

00:07:46.160 rebrand here yes we are back to that and so that's the thing is there are there are you know the

00:07:51.120 foundations both metaphorically and physically of renewables is steel and concrete um both of which

00:07:58.480 um have have emissions so you ask yourself do you want to stop emissions or do you want to manage

00:08:04.080 emissions and i think if you're going to have a transition to a cleaner power source then you're going to have

00:08:09.600 to think about how we mine more metal but we do it in a way that's sustainable and environmentally

00:08:15.120 you know less less environmental impact well i mean some mining companies would stand to benefit

00:08:20.080 a great deal from this i mean any company that's in lithium for example i mean the transition of

00:08:23.840 battery like so every now and then you'll see a mining executive that's up there you know speaking

00:08:27.200 about you know the need to get away from oil and gas then you realize it's because they're going to

00:08:30.640 be cashing in hugely on this but i think you're right when you point out managing versus eliminating

00:08:35.440 because there does seem to be a rather fantastical view by some people that we can just get down to

00:08:40.960 zero without obliterating very large things that we don't have alternatives for well that's right and

00:08:47.760 you know one of the customers that our our project will have is japan and korea and you know those

00:08:54.000 are modern western nations and they're still building blast furnaces and they're still going to be producing

00:09:01.040 co2 but they're looking they're looking at carbon capture and sequestration um they're looking at

00:09:06.080 alternate uses of carbon i mean you can take you can change carbon dioxide into graphite you know

00:09:11.280 anything can be engineered out it's there's a cost to it right and so this is the thing people i i think

00:09:17.120 are failing to realize that yes we can have clean energy but there's a cost to it things will cost more

00:09:22.560 um and so you know for us and for all miners the lithium miners included now don't forget

00:09:28.400 the lithium guys only make batteries they don't produce electricity they only store it yes but you

00:09:33.920 know the thing is is if we're going to go to uh cleaner types of energy of all sorts then it's

00:09:39.280 going to require more metal so to talk about steel carbon i'll try to see if we can get some momentum

00:09:45.280 behind that for a moment is there a market for what canada is mining i mean does canada have enough

00:09:51.040 supply that we're competing globally on this in a large way not hugely i think we're about fifth in the

00:09:56.800 world okay we're still an important market and i think one of the reasons we're an important market

00:10:00.560 is because the alternate markets are places like australia mongolia uh russia predominantly so you

00:10:06.960 know you can start to hear the the political uh aspects of supply come in so with the with the rise of

00:10:14.800 esg uh globally um canada becomes a good place to be buying your metal because as i said it's one of the

00:10:22.240 the best you know australian canada two best mining jurisdictions on earth in terms of of of stewardship

00:10:28.400 of the land of your employees and so people are going to look to these two countries to be getting

00:10:33.680 um to be getting metal that's sustained well not sustainably but um responsibly mine yeah because

00:10:40.160 the demand exists regardless so it's just about where the optimal way to get the supply is that's right

00:10:45.280 and you know ironically one of the things that we saw in australia when i was living in australia where

00:10:49.840 i spent 35 years is that people honestly believe that if they stopped a coal mine in australia that

00:10:55.840 that coal somehow would never get burned but it would it would come from a place where the coal is

00:11:00.800 less high quality and would actually be worse off for the planet so when you start looking at

00:11:05.840 at mining and the requirement for um steel carbon around the world um steel carbon coming out of places

00:11:12.960 like australia and canada are better for the planet than coming from multiple sources steel carbon

00:11:18.240 we'll uh we'll get it trending there mike thank you very much and best of luck with all this thank

00:11:22.320 you very much thanks for listening to the andrew lawton show support the program by donating to true

00:11:27.360 north at www.tnc.news

Juno News - February 05, 2024

Why environmentalists are wrong about coal

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