Juno News - Why families are leaving the public school system

00:00:00.000 We've seen more and more parents fundamentally deciding they do not want their children to be

00:00:14.680 in public schools. This was the subject of a new report from my friend Paige McPherson from the

00:00:20.340 Fraser Institute. She is the Associate Director of Educational Policy there. Paige, good to talk

00:00:25.100 to you. Thanks for coming on today. Thank you so much, Andrew. So what did your study show?

00:00:30.540 So what we found when we look at the numbers in Nova Scotia in particular, and really this is

00:00:36.340 it's not unique to Nova Scotia. It really is more of a national trend. We see a greater proportion

00:00:43.440 of students going to independent schools in Nova Scotia. And why that is noteworthy is that there

00:00:51.760 really is no what they call school choice or what we would refer to as school choice here in Nova

00:00:57.240 Scotia, which basically means that there's not tax dollars, parents tax dollars don't

00:01:03.720 follow their children to the school of their choice the way that they do in half of the

00:01:08.240 provinces in Canada. So every province outside of Ontario and Atlantic Canada has that kind

00:01:13.780 of a policy in place. In Nova Scotia, we don't have that. So what that means is that it's

00:01:18.380 a more significant financial sacrifice for families to send their children to an independent

00:01:23.980 school instead of attending their local government public school. And yet we see increasing enrollment

00:01:28.820 to these schools here in Nova Scotia.

00:01:30.920 Now, when you say independent school, I know it's a broad category, but are we talking predominantly

00:01:35.740 about religious private schools? Are we talking about schools that just have a different approach

00:01:40.560 to education or just the sort of conventional uniformed private school, like an Upper Canada

00:01:46.280 college that people have in their minds or like, well, what's the breakdown in Nova Scotia?

00:01:50.660 It really incorporates all of those types of schools. So we did a paper looking at the breakdown

00:01:56.660 of the different types of independent schools across Canada. And it really is a diverse landscape

00:02:01.640 of independent schools that exist across Canada. I think that as you say, the kind of stereotypical

00:02:07.220 image that pops into people's heads is that kind of uniformed prep school, but that really is not

00:02:12.960 the majority. It's actually quite the minority of the independent schools. In other words, private

00:02:17.700 schools in Canada. And so here in Nova Scotia, same as in every province, it includes some religious

00:02:24.180 private schools or cultural private schools. So families who are seeking that option for a

00:02:28.800 cultural or religious focus. It includes alternative education schools. So that might be a Waldorf

00:02:34.940 school, a Montessori school, a progressive art school could include anything like that, a STEM school.

00:02:41.800 And it also includes those elite prep schools, although that is not the majority of what the

00:02:48.380 independent school landscape looks like really right across the country.

00:02:51.020 I know, I mean, you were on a panel we did on this topic more broadly, a couple of months back

00:02:56.260 on this program. And one of the things that came up was that the socioeconomic class, if you will,

00:03:02.680 of parents that make this choice is not what a lot of people assume. It's not only the wealthy

00:03:06.960 that are doing this, which when you bring up the point you raised earlier about how the money doesn't

00:03:11.640 follow the schools, we're talking about parents making a big sacrifice here, which means it must

00:03:15.220 really mean something to them to do it.

00:03:17.300 Absolutely. So yeah, there's, there's lots of families who are just, you know, not buying a

00:03:21.740 second vehicle, not going on vacation, not doing any number of things, so that they can make those

00:03:27.620 sacrifices for their children to send them to an independent school. It's the same for families

00:03:31.580 at homeschool, which often involves, you know, one family member sacrificing an income, one parent

00:03:36.300 staying home, at least for most of the time with the child or children. And so it is a financial sacrifice

00:03:41.640 for these families. And what our data shows, I don't have Nova Scotia specific numbers, but I was just

00:03:46.420 looking at the numbers on this in British Columbia as an example. And if you take out, so in British

00:03:51.900 Columbia, as an example, those elite private schools that we were talking about are about 5%,

00:03:57.100 just over 5% of the independent schools in the province. So a very small minority of those schools.

00:04:03.460 When you take those out of the picture, the income gap between families that send their kids

00:04:08.900 to government public schools, and families that send their kids to an independent school

00:04:12.960 is only 1.9%. So a very, very small gap in income between those government public school families,

00:04:19.580 and independent school families, when you throw those elite private schools back into the mix,

00:04:24.300 the gap is 14%. So it's still not a dramatic gap. But if you take those out, which I think gives a more

00:04:30.580 fair kind of look at the picture only 1.9%. So we're, we're not looking at the sort of stereotypical

00:04:36.260 picture that sometimes pops into people's heads about independent schools in Canada. What we really

00:04:42.160 see is that it's a lot of families that for one reason or another are seeking an alternative form

00:04:47.060 of education for their kids. It could be something related to the philosophy or the educational approach

00:04:52.420 of the school as we just talked about. But it could also be something like my kid has experienced

00:04:56.820 bullying in their classroom at their local government public school, there's too much violence in my local

00:05:01.940 government public school, whatever it might be, there's, there's a number of reasons that that families

00:05:06.820 are seeking these alternative options. And it certainly it doesn't really fit that that typical stereotype.

00:05:12.560 And there's, there's often the argument that comes up from critics of programs like school choice programs

00:05:20.500 that I they talked about off the top, you know, where some of parents tax dollars follows their child to the school

00:05:25.860 of their choice, enabling more lower and middle class families to send their kids to the school that better fits

00:05:31.940 them to send their kids to an independent school or homeschool, or in Alberta's case, a charter school.

00:05:36.900 And part of that criticism that that people will will say is that, well, you're taking money away from

00:05:42.580 government public schools. But the reality is that these policies actually save taxpayer dollars at the end of

00:05:48.180 the day. But they also the reality is also and certainly here in Nova Scotia, where we're looking at an increasing

00:05:54.260 number of families sending their kids to independent schools, we're already funneling more and more money

00:06:00.180 into government public schools year after year after year, actually, Nova Scotia saw the second largest

00:06:05.380 increase in funding to, to government public schools, over the time period in our latest study,

00:06:12.900 which was, I believe 2012 to to the most recent year 2022. So that we are seeing this this really large

00:06:21.780 growth in spending in government public schools. So so one of those criticisms is, well, we could take

00:06:26.980 that money, we could improve things in government public schools, they're already getting money,

00:06:30.980 throwing more money at the problem, which is already happening is obviously not solving the problem.

00:06:36.340 So there is a lot that we could do to improve our government public schools for sure. But these

00:06:41.140 programs that enable lower and middle class children to attend independent schools for those families,

00:06:46.660 as we mentioned, that are making sacrifices are really not the appropriate target here.

00:06:50.260 Just to broaden this out for a moment, Paige, is the the rise in Nova Scotia? I mean,

00:06:55.060 obviously, I know this study looks at Nova Scotia, but from data you've seen elsewhere,

00:06:58.580 is Nova Scotia unique example? Or is this really a more national trend? With the exception of perhaps

00:07:04.340 Alberta, which I know does offer parents a fair bit more choice.

00:07:08.900 So in terms of enrollment patterns? No, this is not at all unique to Nova Scotia. Every single province in

00:07:14.980 the country recorded growth in the enrollment to independent schools as a share of the student

00:07:20.980 population. And the other thing is homeschooling, that's also going up right across the country.

00:07:26.980 So our study looked at 2001 to 2019-20. And so it's a broad kind of look there. And we see that,

00:07:36.180 again, in every single province, there is a greater share of students that are now attending independent

00:07:41.540 schools, growth in that enrollment, and a greater share of students that are homeschooling, growth

00:07:46.180 in that enrollment as well. Homeschooling is a very small proportion of kids overall in Canada

00:07:51.460 that are making that choice for their family, but it is also growing. So really, I guess the takeaway

00:07:57.300 here is that more and more families, despite in half the country it being very financially difficult,

00:08:03.540 because in Ontario, in Nova Scotia, and across Atlantic Canada, there's absolutely no financial

00:08:08.100 support for those families. They're paying their tax dollars to government public schools,

00:08:12.660 and none of those tax dollars are following their child to the school that they're actually choosing

00:08:16.980 for them. And yet, they are still making that choice. They're still making the financial sacrifice

00:08:22.900 involved. And so basically, a greater share of families are just seeking alternative education for

00:08:28.180 their kids. But it's not only good news for those families, because research shows that actually having

00:08:33.860 these kinds of school choice policies in place, which enable more children to find the schools that are

00:08:39.140 the best fit for them, actually improves results right across the board. So one of the takeaways for

00:08:45.700 Nova Scotia, for example, or a province like Ontario might be that enabling even more families to make these

00:08:52.820 choices would be a good idea. Because not only does research show an increase in student achievement in

00:09:00.180 student tests, but it also shows reduced absences, reduced suspensions, just better results across the

00:09:06.260 board, not only in those independent schools that families are choosing, but actually in the government

00:09:11.380 public schools as well, because a rising tide lifts all boats, right? The competition is good. And really,

00:09:16.740 that's what is borne out in the research. So if provinces like Nova Scotia, like Ontario are looking to

00:09:23.620 increase the diversity in their education systems, these kinds of school choice policies where the money follows the

00:09:28.980 student are a really great place to start. Well, and just one, I mean, one glaring thing that comes

00:09:33.620 up from a policy perspective is that you'd think in theory, public schools would be improving as

00:09:38.980 students leave because the, they're still getting the same amount of money, but having to serve a

00:09:43.060 fewer amount of students, but that's not happening. So the issue is not a funding one, which is I think

00:09:46.980 what we often hear from a lot of advocates, well, we need to better fund public schools. Yeah, I also just

00:09:51.940 want to be clear about something. It's not that they're doing, you know, the sort of the old refrain that,

00:09:57.860 well, we have to do more with less, they're actually getting just more overall. And it's it's that

00:10:02.500 accounts for enrollment growth, and that accounts for inflation. So per student inflation adjusted

00:10:08.260 spending in government public schools is up across the board. The only two provinces where that is is

00:10:14.820 not the case where per student, so overall spending increase, but per student inflation adjusted spending in

00:10:20.580 Saskatchewan and Alberta has decreased in every other province. And certainly nationally, when you

00:10:26.820 look at the average has increased. So so even if there are students that are leaving going to other

00:10:32.740 options, we're still pouring more money into the government public school system on a per student

00:10:37.380 basis, there's still more money going in. So more money really isn't solving the problem. If there's not

00:10:43.300 been a year where okay, we're seeing large decreases. And that's that can account for the flaws that we're

00:10:48.020 seeing in the government public school system. I think there's there's other issues that we should

00:10:53.300 be looking at, you know, whether it's that we've moved away from the kind of content rich curricula

00:10:58.100 in our public schools, where we give kids that solid foundation of fact based learning that makes

00:11:03.300 it easier for them to then have critical thinking and comprehension skills later, we've moved away from

00:11:08.340 phonics in our reading programs, for example, a lot of the policies have made it more difficult for

00:11:13.140 teachers to actually have leadership and empowerment over their classrooms. And so we do see this

00:11:19.140 increase in bullying and classroom violence. And, and it's, it's, there's, there's big challenges for

00:11:25.380 sure that that we're facing in our government public school systems, more money is not solving the

00:11:30.420 problem. So perhaps we should be looking at, you know, the bigger issues here that are at play.

00:11:35.460 Well, you can read Paige's latest on this at the Fraser Institute website, more Nova Scotia families

00:11:41.540 choosing independent schools, despite lack of government support. Paige McPherson, always a

00:11:46.340 pleasure. Thanks for coming on today. Thank you so much, Andrew. Thanks for listening to the Andrew

00:11:50.820 Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - December 03, 2023

Why families are leaving the public school system

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