Juno News - Why is Tamara Lich still in jail？

00:00:00.000 you're tuned in to the andrew lawton show

00:00:05.960 tamara leach who is the lead convoy fundraiser she was the one that started the gofundme she was

00:00:15.180 the one that was in ottawa was yelling out hold the line as she was arrested by police tamara

00:00:21.200 leach after a bail hearing yesterday has been kept behind bars for at least another five more days

00:00:27.900 so that'll bring us to monday when the judge will decide whether or not she should be released on 0.99

00:00:34.580 bail that will be about two and a half weeks or if i'm being precise here two weeks and three days

00:00:40.960 since she was first arrested for organizing a protest she was arrested on the charge of

00:00:47.480 counseling mischief i've never heard of someone being kept behind bars with the crown so fervently

00:00:52.600 trying to keep them there as is happening in the case of tamara leach i want to talk about this

00:00:57.440 and much more about the aftermath of the convoy with criminal lawyer david anber who believe it

00:01:02.780 or not is not a simpsons character on twitter you may be mistaken if you thought that but he has a

00:01:07.580 real life identity and he is sharing it with us today david good to talk to you thanks very much

00:01:11.960 for coming on the program thanks for having me andrew you and i talked in a twitter space a couple

00:01:18.140 of weeks back and i said i wanted to delve into some of these issues with you further and of course

00:01:22.020 this issue has changed but let me just start with the bail question here when tamara leach was first

00:01:28.380 asking for bail i think it was the day after she was arrested actually yeah it's two weeks ago today

00:01:33.280 because i recall the day after was a friday and i thought it was bizarre that the judge didn't make

00:01:38.500 the decision right away and this judge as well taking five days to review the bail is this normal in

00:01:44.540 a criminal proceeding to a certain extent andrew it is normal when judges have decisions that are

00:01:51.320 important i mean they're all important but when they're in the national scrutiny in the national

00:01:57.860 eye if they deal with something that's a complicated legal question i appreciate that there are many who

00:02:03.740 feel that this is a a slam dunk it's a you know a mischief charge and she should be released and i'm a big

00:02:10.540 believer that the first judge got it wrong uh but i i did also believe at the time that it's a much

00:02:16.760 closer call than people think it is when you apply the rules that apply to bail and look the prosecutor

00:02:23.100 who's been arguing the case has been doing a very good job at advancing the prosecution's uh theory of the

00:02:29.000 case so justice bourgeois uh wanted to wait until i think it was after the holiday monday uh the tuesdays

00:02:36.440 when she released her decision so that's that's somewhat normal what happened uh yesterday and it

00:02:41.760 was uh what's called a bail review which is essentially like an appeal i won't bog down in

00:02:46.400 the minutia of what it is it's basically an appeal of uh of the first bail ruling to a higher court judge

00:02:52.440 it's actually just for those of you who are interested it's a it's a harper appointee judge uh the

00:02:58.380 provincial court judge was appointed by the provincial government but this is a superior court judge

00:03:03.000 a former defense lawyer a very good judge very open-minded judge not a pushover one way or the

00:03:10.400 other uh so he heard a full day hearing basically the matter went to close to six o'clock in the

00:03:18.500 afternoon in the evening and he indicated that he needed some time to reflect on that now i think

00:03:27.020 due to scheduling reasons he's in other courts and other jurisdictions for the remainder of the week

00:03:32.080 the thursday and the friday and so the first opportunity after that that he would have to

00:03:37.140 render a decision would be on the on the next monday so uh certainly uh nobody likes the idea that

00:03:43.240 that you have to wait for justice especially when you're in custody but i think that there's nothing

00:03:47.820 nefarious going on behind the scenes that's just the way everything shook out with the way the bail

00:03:53.300 went all day yesterday not being a lawyer i typically look at the two considerations that seem to come up in

00:04:00.420 in any bail stories i've covered as being the seriousness of the offense or the alleged offense

00:04:05.300 and also whether the the person is a flight risk now again i'm hoping you can explain what the factors

00:04:11.540 are that go into these decisions but but on those two points we're talking about relatively minor charges

00:04:16.780 here and also we're talking about a woman who has had her bank accounts frozen previously doesn't have

00:04:22.660 a lot of money and isn't vaccinated so couldn't even if she wanted to get on a plane to flee the country 1.00

00:04:28.260 here so i don't think we're talking about much of a flight risk here what are the factors at play

00:04:33.220 here that have been justifying keeping her detained not grant giving giving her bail especially when one

00:04:38.660 of her co-organizers chris barber was given bail by that first judge justice bourgeois okay so andrew

00:04:45.860 there are three considerations in bail uh the first as you indicated is the flight risk the second is the

00:04:52.100 substantial likelihood of the repetition of the offense or further offenses and the third is the

00:04:58.660 reputation of the administration of justice as that's perceived in the community and that normally

00:05:03.620 doesn't play much of a factor into a typical mischief charge but it actually is playing a large factor

00:05:08.740 here because it's got such a high profile because members of the community allegedly were so much affected

00:05:15.300 by what was being framed as a uh a blockade as an occupation so on the first uh consideration uh justice

00:05:23.700 bourgeois did not detain uh tamara leach on the first first consideration the first consideration i believe

00:05:30.020 the crown had argued it was a a factor but that's not been uh the that's not been the consideration it's

00:05:37.060 been the second and the third that have been in play in this particular case and a lot has been said

00:05:43.300 and a lot has been made of tamara leach saying the hold the line i mean and again look i put myself

00:05:49.300 in the shoes of the prosecutor if i were prosecuting this i would be making the same point as he did it's

00:05:55.060 that the you know the politician said to go home the police said to go home the emergency act was uh invoked

00:06:02.180 and then as she's being arrested she says hold the line one more time and so the argument that they're

00:06:07.860 making is that she can't be governed by the rule of law now again i i believe that the bail judge got

00:06:14.260 it wrong in the first instance there's a heavy onus in terms of releasing people uh particularly

00:06:20.340 those without a prior record and so um not withstanding the fact that that's a concern

00:06:26.660 the conditions of bail could be fashioned in such a way as to alleviate that now in canada we don't

00:06:33.860 rely so much on cash bail although that would have been an option i know in quebec they're a little

00:06:38.980 more uh interested in doing that than they are in ontario ontario places a big emphasis on shirties

00:06:45.540 that's a person who is willing to step up and sign for the person and be responsible for the person

00:06:51.220 like their jailer so they would turn them into police if they weren't following the conditions uh tamara

00:06:57.060 leach's first shirtie was not seen as being suitable but a different shirtie testified there was

00:07:03.540 a publication ban on the identity of that shirtie so i can't really say much more other than there

00:07:08.340 was a different shirtie that was put forward uh and and there was a debate held over whether or not

00:07:13.780 that person would be um would be appropriate but moving out of the third consideration sort of the

00:07:20.100 public's perception of the administration of justice should this person be released and we're seeing

00:07:25.940 something that we see pretty much in other areas of of civil society or politics or what have you

00:07:32.260 it's that there are these two different realities of what was going on in ottawa that are being

00:07:37.140 put forward there's the reality at least the one that i saw and i drove the streets uh my offices you

00:07:43.220 can see uh right yeah you've got you had quite a beautiful view of the action and even normally of

00:07:48.500 downtown ottawa there i can i'm actually quite jealous here being in my little basement office of

00:07:52.340 your view absolutely we're right downtown and yeah there was some a little bit of additional

00:07:58.420 delays when getting to work but i i could drive other than wellington i could drive pretty much

00:08:03.860 every street downtown there was at least one lane of traffic open on every major downtown core street

00:08:10.340 uh you know say what you will about the the flags that were there on the first day you know one or

00:08:15.380 two flags that were really really focused on by the media but you know there were hundreds or

00:08:20.340 thousands of canadian flags every day it was a uh a very peaceful and a very cordial protest for for

00:08:29.220 a very long time that's one reality the other reality is that this was a blockade an occupation

00:08:34.980 that there was harassment going on that we heard you know a member of parliament even say that there was

00:08:40.100 sexual assaults that were taking place when there's really no evidence to support that there was the

00:08:45.140 ongoing honking which was was a a concern and there was a court order that that addressed that but

00:08:51.700 when you get the prosecution that puts essentially a package of photos and pieces of evidence together

00:08:58.260 including statements from the civil lawsuit that's going on you get this one reality that makes it look

00:09:04.580 like it's some kind of hellscape that tamara leach was responsible for for visiting upon the city of ottawa and 1.00

00:09:11.540 so i think that to a certain degree uh that was the perception that was guiding the first bail judge

00:09:21.380 and uh justice johnston he normally sits in ottawa he's a little bit removed from the city of ottawa and

00:09:27.380 was able to i think you know not necessarily tune into what the innuendo is in the media but focus on what

00:09:34.820 the evidence was before him and put it into the proper context and into the proper prioritization

00:09:40.500 because again you know people can be released on any crime in canada no matter how heinous so it's

00:09:46.340 a consideration of all three of those factors i think that the lawyer for tamara leach did did a good

00:09:52.180 job of advancing the argument on a bail review and getting through some of those technicalities

00:09:57.380 because it's not quite an appeal there's some you know certain issues that are are assumed to have

00:10:02.900 been correct by the uh by the bail judge other issues can be challenged there's this concept of a

00:10:09.540 change of circumstances uh one change of circumstance that i didn't really see argued that much which i

00:10:15.540 was quite surprised is that the protest isn't there anymore yeah yeah the convoy the mischief ceases to

00:10:21.700 exist right exactly and i know there's always the argument that it could come back but i think that

00:10:26.660 that the landscape is very different right now is had the occupation as they call it been still there

00:10:33.300 and tamara leach was released more of an argument could have been made that you know uh she could 1.00

00:10:40.180 give moral support or do something to uh hinder the police in clearing out the area but the area is

00:10:45.780 cleared out it's it's it's gone right so that's one change of circumstance from the time the bail

00:10:51.380 hearing was first argued that i would argue uh makes it such that it's even less of a risk of her 0.70

00:10:58.820 re-offending and less of a concern to the public overall i want to talk about some of the broader

00:11:06.500 aftermath aspects of this i know you're representing the woman who was uh trampled by the police the

00:11:13.300 mounted police in that famous video now and again i'm talking about this as someone who was pepper

00:11:18.340 sprayed at the protest while doing my job as a journalist there's a another journalist a photographer

00:11:23.220 with an agency i can't recall the name of immediately who was arrested zip tied thrown

00:11:27.940 to the ground by police and he was later released there have been a number of incidents like this

00:11:32.820 that have come up the only force the only violence in fact i've heard of from anyone came from law

00:11:38.180 enforcement on that weekend when this was all basically dismantled by police so just either generally

00:11:45.140 or on behalf of your clients specifically here what is the recourse available to people for this even

00:11:50.980 with the emergencies act having been in effect at that time well the recourse available you have

00:11:57.380 more recourse if you've been charged with an offense if you've been charged with an offense you can you

00:12:02.500 can apply to the court for remedy under the charter your charges can be thrown out the court can make

00:12:08.740 determinations and speak about the police's conduct uh the lack of recourse is what often exists when a

00:12:16.500 person isn't charged we saw people as even far back as the you know the gas can seizures that took place

00:12:22.660 earlier on in the protest where people were arrested their property seized and then they were released

00:12:27.780 hours later so for those people i know uh for example the the lady who was trampled by the horse uh

00:12:33.860 candace sarrow she's being represented by matthew wolfson in my office and uh she wasn't charged with

00:12:40.820 anything but she is going to be through through the assistance of matt wolson bringing a professional

00:12:47.220 standards complaint so that's a chance for the police to be formally disciplined for their conduct we're

00:12:55.220 going to be doing the same thing for the lady doreen that you may have seen who was a video recording on

00:13:01.220 her phone a police officer who walks up to her he walks up to her and says why are you pointing that in my face 1.00

00:13:07.300 uh stop recording and they start grilling her about where she's from and then they start basically

00:13:13.060 threatening her leave now or we're going to place you under arrest and and i've said this before but

00:13:18.580 it bears repeating it's that the emergency act did give the police additional powers but they didn't

00:13:24.740 give the police it didn't give the police unlimited powers and that's how the police were conducting

00:13:29.780 themselves that weekend where basically whatever the individual officer or the police force as a whole

00:13:35.780 this determined was necessary to do you needed to do or face being arrested and charged with the

00:13:41.940 same thing as tamara leach or anybody else who was there continuing to protest yeah and one of the 0.77

00:13:47.780 more concerning aspects was this reverse onus that police claimed you needed to prove that you had a

00:13:52.900 lawful purpose not just to be in front of parliament hill but even as that video you just indicated which

00:13:58.340 we played on the show last week uh shows to just walk down the street three or four blocks from parliament hill

00:14:04.740 you had to prove to police that you had a reason and as i understand it and please correct me if i'm

00:14:09.700 wrong here it happens often but detention has a very broad meaning it isn't just about having handcuffs

00:14:16.020 thrown on you if police are stopping you and questioning you that is detainment is it not it is i mean

00:14:21.380 there's psychological detention not not every interaction between the police and the public is a detention but

00:14:27.860 certainly where the police is taking some degree of control over you and basically threatening you to

00:14:34.500 say you know do as i say or we're going to place you under arrest i would make the argument that the police

00:14:39.140 are are detaining a person and and for all the emergencies acts faults and there are many it didn't say you

00:14:44.740 weren't allowed to film a public street no and and trudeau even said when announcing the emergency act he said this is what it's not and he said it is not a

00:14:53.860 uh a restriction of the charter of rights and freedom and you go into the the emergency act where

00:14:59.860 they set out the so-called red zone where they can secure an area that area the southern area of that

00:15:06.980 area specified in the emergency act is wellington street the ottawa police decided that they were going

00:15:12.580 to have an expanded red zone and they treated the rest of that area which wasn't specified in the

00:15:19.140 emergencies act as their full discretion to determine it to be a red zone and treat people however they

00:15:26.580 saw fit to treat them well i'm glad you're on this and you've been doing a great job on twitter and you

00:15:34.020 have your twitter handle up on the screen there david amber at demystifying a lot of this for the lay

00:15:39.940 people out there like myself so i appreciate it very much david amber lawyer in toronto thank you sir

00:15:45.300 ottawa thanks for having me sorry i i knew ottawa we were talking about you being in ottawa

00:15:49.140 i i'm i'm from london so they're all just like big cities that go into an amorphous blob to me but

00:15:54.100 uh yes ottawa lawyer david amber thank you sir thanks for listening to the andrew lawton show

00:15:59.300 support the program by donating to true north at www.tnc.news

Juno News - March 06, 2022

Why is Tamara Lich still in jail？

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