00:21:05.800And there was a big, large migrant exodus.
00:21:08.780Again, these were gripping images from India that, you know, everybody around the world saw of people literally walking from the big cities back to their towns and villages,
00:21:17.060walking for thousands of miles just to get to where they were, get to their homes, because the cities no longer had jobs.
00:21:41.220I, I, the Great Barrington Declaration hadn't yet come out at that point, but I was a big fan of Dr. Jay Bhattacharya and I referenced his work quite extensively.
00:21:50.680And I was of the opinion that lockdowns shouldn't, shouldn't happen and, and that we must protect the most vulnerable people in long-term care homes and retirement homes and that kind of thing.
00:22:03.260And I, even by the way, I should just jump in there.
00:22:05.560Even the WHO has come around on that position somewhat.
00:22:08.800They're saying, oh, lockdowns are terrible.
00:22:10.260No, they should be a last resort only.
00:22:13.220So, and the criticism that I, the, you know, at that time, again, this was people reacting to what I was writing at that time said that I was a COVID denier.
00:22:21.880I was underplaying the seriousness of COVID and, and so on and so forth.
00:22:27.720And so, you know, at that time, when I, when I returned to Canada, I was the only person wearing a mask.
00:22:34.600When I, when I went to my local farm boy after the 14 day quarantine, I went grocery shopping and I was wearing a mask because that's what we were told in India, wear a mask.
00:22:46.280And I was the only one wearing a mask.
00:22:48.140And I was the only one wearing a mask.
00:22:48.520Everybody was just going about their daily lives.
00:22:53.480I thought that everybody was just like trying to figure out what was happening in April of 2020 when I returned to Canada.
00:23:00.860And, and then I realized, you know, well, I'm not, I'm not going to wear a mask if nobody else is wearing a mask and I stopped wearing a mask.
00:23:08.500Then the, then the mask mandate came into effect in July of 2020 and things really changed at that point.
00:23:14.780I think people got very fearful people truly felt that the masks were helping them.
00:23:22.920They, they were, and that it was, it was preventing transmission of the virus and, and people, you know, I just saw people who were, who, who, who, who didn't think that wearing a mask would make much sense suddenly became fearful and were double masked even.
00:23:41.640And, and I saw, you know, I saw this happening and I just went along with it because, you know, I'm not going to fight a public health mandate.
00:23:48.980You know, I, I need to be able to come back into my building and access the elevator, you know, and I'm not going to, you know, be a martyr for that cause.
00:23:57.780So I just went along with it like most people did.
00:24:00.900And so, you know, I've seen not just, you know, a change in my thinking around these various issues.
00:24:07.100I've also seen how the public has reacted, you know, the public reacted to this, you know, from, from when April, 2020, when no one was masked and everybody was just, you know, that summer of 2020 in Ottawa, you know, everybody was just really happy that, you know, you could die now.
00:24:24.320And, and, and, and life was, there was, there was a glimmer of hope that life is going to come back to normal.
00:24:29.780And then the vaccines would arrive here in a few months and everything would be back to normal.
00:24:33.720But that unfortunately wasn't the case.
00:24:35.860I would like to point this out to you, Andrew.
00:24:37.740I mean, this is a very puzzling question that several of us have raised and there's no clear answer to this, except that there was fear.
00:24:44.540So why did we become more afraid after vaccines?
00:24:50.140You know, all of these restrictions, all of these restrictions, the mandates, the vaccine passport system, all of that happened post vaccination.
00:24:59.660Eighty percent of Canadians were fully vaccinated by about October, a few days before the mask mandate, sorry, before the vaccine mandate was implemented.
00:25:12.660The federal vaccine mandate was implemented.
00:25:17.460You know, what, what, what was the rationale behind that?
00:25:20.240And again, I want to point this point, you know, if I can point you to the court documents in this cross-examination of the bureaucrat charged with holding the pen for the federal mandate for travel, federal vaccine mandate for travel.
00:25:38.680She says, look, we couldn't do the vaccine mandate when 50 percent of Canadians are vaccinated because it would cause chaos in the transportation system.
00:25:48.280But instead, we did this at 80 percent.
00:26:15.560And I think that there's a that's a hugely, hugely critical question, Rupa, because there have been, I think, two phenomena at play that I would identify.
00:26:24.840One is is that when everyone around you was wearing a mask, not you, but, you know, one, when everyone around someone was wearing a mask, it was easy to feel like, OK, this is all sorted out.
00:26:36.920When the number of people interested in complying goes down, if you view that an unmasked person is a viral vector, you're going to be more scared when other people start moving on with their lives and you're not ready to yet.
00:26:49.880I think that's part of it. But I think the other part is that governments have done a terrible job at explaining away their failures, because at first and there are some clips you can see of some people saying that vaccination is 100 percent effective and early on saying herd immunity will get at, you know, 70 percent and then 80 percent and then 90 percent.
00:27:09.880And then it needs to be more. And then, well, now it's three doses. So we go back down to only 50 percent of people are vaccinated in the government size.
00:27:17.840And I mean, even the story that I was covering earlier this week on my show of Western University putting a booster requirement in place, they also say in the same breath, and we might also put social distancing and masking back in place.
00:27:30.380So which is it? Are vaccines as good as you say they are? Or are they just as effective as sitting six feet away from someone and you have to stack anything and everything together?
00:27:40.840And we're all just told that we have to accept that that's the way it is. And if you question it, you, as you noted firsthand, you're a denier.
00:27:49.200You can't say, well, hang on. How can you say this and then also this? It's you. We aren't allowed to do that.
00:27:54.780No, we're not. That's unfortunate. And that's that that's very anti-intellectual and it not not how, you know, we should, you know, that's not how you, you know, understand issues, important issues of the day.
00:28:11.760It's not it's not a way for for us to have any kind of a meaningful conversation if if if the response always is a smear of some kind, that you're an anti-vaxxer, you're a COVID denier.
00:28:24.780And and and that you don't believe in the science or or or Twitter shut suspends your account because you raise some very important questions about the vaccine's ability to prevent transmission.
00:28:38.460It's it's most unfortunate, but but that's exactly you know that these were exactly the kinds of questions that I had.
00:28:44.640And and and it took me a while. I mean, it took me maybe a couple of months to get around to this point of view.
00:28:51.120And and and and and, you know, most of it, I mean, it's not an excuse, but most of it had to do with my own personal situation.
00:28:58.280And that, you know, I started to realize, like, what is going on here?
00:29:02.400I mean, I, you know, we're we're vaccinated, but yet we're still fearful.
00:29:08.760The public health messaging of on the pandemic, at least here in Canada, continues to be one of fear.
00:29:15.760And and and and I just found that hugely problematic.
00:29:21.280And, you know, I mean, I know people who are triple vaccinated who are still at one point a few months ago, wanting to just, you know, not not congregate in more than, you know, in not more than five people in a group.
00:29:37.040And I was thinking, well, yeah, yeah, but we also have this wave of quadruple vaccinated people that are getting COVID for the second time in four weeks now.
00:29:45.800And also, let's not forget, I mean, this is a very important point, which, you know, and I couldn't unfortunately couldn't get into it in my piece for The National Post.
00:29:54.100Natural immunity, you know, this is the elephant in the room and we've just completely sidelined it.
00:30:00.320I mean, it's something as old as time itself, but and we just doubled down on vaccination by, you know, by the time Omicron came around, most of us were either vaccinated or infected combination of both.
00:30:16.740And so, you know, we just completely ignored the science behind natural immunity, which is perplexing.
00:30:24.260I mean, of course, I mean, you know, one could argue that, I mean, it's not that perplexing, given that big pharma has an incentive here to push the vaccines as much as possible.
00:30:33.160And governments, including our government, have signed billion dollar contracts with these big pharmaceutical companies to get the vaccines into us.
00:31:06.020And I know they say follow the science, but where's the science here?
00:31:10.940And and then so, you know, I was gripped by all of these questions and and I wasn't really getting any clear answers on them.
00:31:18.440And to them and I, you know, and then that eventually I realized, I mean, this was I'll tell you, even with my with me wearing a mask, you know, I was triple vaccinated and I got Omicron and I recovered from Omicron drinking hot toddy for a week.
00:31:36.120And it was it was the best thing I ever did.
00:31:39.380If Pfizer doesn't make the hot toddy, though, that's not that's not an acceptable cure.
00:31:42.940And and and, you know, and then a month later, the or more than a month later, the Freedom Convoi protest came to Ottawa.
00:31:53.540And here I was for the first time in this crowd of people, large group of people.
00:34:20.340So personally, I would not get another shot.
00:34:23.560And and for various reasons, I don't think that I want to be on a carousel of boosters.
00:34:30.740You know, I don't think it makes any sense.
00:34:33.000I have recovered from COVID and, you know, I have antibodies.
00:34:40.160Keep in mind that the the the vaccine that I got in December of 2021, that the vaccine effectiveness or, you know, the the, you know, its protection only lasted for, I think, 12 weeks or 20 weeks, something thereabouts.
00:34:58.060So, you know, I don't think we're meant to be on these frequent boosters.
00:35:05.260You know, it's something about that makes me feel very uncomfortable.
00:35:08.500Yeah. Yeah. And in France, you'd be unvaccinated basically come September, because I think France, it's a nine month window of memory surge.
00:35:46.060And there is a big difference between the two.
00:35:47.940There is. And one of the things that I've been frustrated by, and I don't know if you've seen it as well, is that there seems to be a tribalism among some people who are against vaccine mandates where they I mean, I've been criticized by people for being vaccinated and saying I'm vaccinated.
00:36:03.860Now, again, government keeps changing the definition, so a time will come when I won't be.
00:36:08.300But the thing that I would find very annoying there is that at the beginning, I was always about protect the vulnerable.
00:36:16.760It doesn't mean there's no benefit to this thing.
00:36:18.780It's about people deciding their own risk threshold and deciding the risk threshold for their loved ones.
00:36:23.640And I find that there's been too much in a very small pocket, admittedly, but a very small pocket, even of some of the people that listen to the show and write to me after that, they find anyone who gets vaccinated or gets boosted to be a betrayer in some sense of a cause, which is, again, I think no better than what we see the other side doing, which is people vilifying the unvaccinated.
00:36:47.640There's tribalism on both sides, let's face it.
00:36:51.140And and but I, you know, but I wouldn't I don't know how big these groups are, but I would say that for the vast majority of people who who were reacting to this old tweet, you know, were were very kind, very tolerant, very supportive, you know, and very appreciative of the
00:37:16.620of the fact that I was being honest about it and upfront about it.
00:37:19.620And and so the the responses I received were very encouraging and supportive, very overwhelming.
00:37:28.620And, you know, and I would say that there.
00:37:31.620Yeah, there are a few people on on who are anti mandates anti vaccinate anti vaccines and or me or or, you know, to qualify that properly.
00:37:43.620They're not anti-vaxxers, but they have particular issues with the mRNA vaccines or COVID-19 vaccines in general.
00:37:52.620But but, you know, you know, I don't know how big their their numbers are, but I would just just gauging just going by the reactions that I've been getting.
00:38:02.620Most people are, you know, very appreciative and and and, you know, make the point that you made earlier, which is, you know, you want people to be able to come around to a certain point of view.
00:38:13.620You want you want critical thinking in society.
00:38:15.620You want people to be able to go through these issues and not not stick to a position come hell or high water.
00:38:24.620Yeah, I would not do this show if I didn't think it was possible and desirable for people to engage with different viewpoints and perhaps change their own.
00:38:32.620I mean, that's classic or go right back to John Stuart Mill and on Liberty, the idea that the exchange of ideas strengthens your own resolve and also lets you correct deficiencies in your thinking when necessary.
00:38:43.620Yeah, I mean, and it's important for, you know, discourse, especially when it comes to these very important issues.
00:38:51.620As I said, I mean, if if if if the starting point is, oh, you changed your mind because of because you, you know, you benefit from this monetarily.
00:39:02.620I don't even know how that's happening. I mean, I you know, I've been called all kinds of things.
00:39:08.620And, you know, it's unfortunate because it doesn't advance discourse.
00:39:13.620Right. Which is what we want to do. At least that's I'm in the idea space.
00:39:17.620Right. I'm not an activist. I'm not an activist at all.
00:39:21.620I'm you know, I see myself as someone who is in the idea space.
00:39:25.620I want to be able to advance discourse. I want to be able to put these ideas out there and for people to debate and discuss them and come to their own conclusions.
00:39:34.620You know, you don't have to believe me. You don't have to take it from me.
00:39:38.620So I but you know, I think I think most people see that most people recognize the importance of ideas, the importance of people being able to change their views and the importance of critical thinking.
00:39:52.620I think most Canadians value that. And a few people want to want, you know, want to resort to tribalism.
00:39:59.620Well, what can you do about that? You know, I you know, eventually I'm hoping that they'll also come around and and it'll be better for all of us.
00:40:08.620Well, and it part of it is listening to your great show on True North, the Rupa Subramanya show and also reading your work and listen to mine while you're at it as well.
00:40:17.620Rupa, always good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on today.
00:40:19.620Thanks so much, Andrew. Thanks for having me on your show once again. Thank you.
00:40:23.620Thank you. That was Rupa Subramanya here on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:40:27.620That does it for us for today. We'll be back with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show next week.
00:40:33.620You're listening to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North. Thank you. God bless and good day to you all.
00:40:38.620Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.